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Hi, just thought I would warn you that someone is trying very hard to vandalize this page. This link has been spammed on imageboard sites with the obvious intent of messing with this page. I don't know what you can do with this information, possibly lock the page from editing or something, I just thought I'd warn you of this as I don't appreciate people doing such a pointless thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.113.119.195 ( talk) 08:32, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone put any historical evidence on this article?
As always, Jew-haters hide behind the mask of "academic neutrality" to discredit any and all facts, no matter how self-evident or abundant, so long as they support Judaism or Jewish national claims. Even the very existence of King David is questioned. PiCo, just admit it, you're a Muslim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.14.36.197 ( talk) 05:22, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
Positions on Jerusalem cites 1004 BCE and King David as crucial in determining Israel's right to Jerusalem. Is there any evidence for the year 1004 BCE?
The hebrew words for "many" and "forty" were very similar, and would often be used interchangably. Hebrew is a language that is generally strong in metaphor but weak in precision. ("The World May Know" DVD set, Vanderlaan) Swift99 06:22, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
May I please ask what is meant specifically by purported events of David's lifetime ? (Joe Gatt, 2nd May 2007)
Please forgive my ignorance but the historicity section claims that there is lack of solid archaeological evidence of the existence of kingdom of David or even a big Judean kingdom. Then why does the first line of the article claim David to be the second king of united Israel? Has it been proved beyond doubt? Should it not be worded differently, something like David is claimed/said to be the second king of Israel according to the Hebrew bible? (Ambar, 1st August 2007)
In this article and consistently on the history channel, you have confused academics pondering what appears to them to be the unknownable, did a single soul from the Bible ever exist at all? And then you have those confused "scholars" warbling over their meager finds of pottery shards.
Well, fellows, it IS clear you will be confused the remainder of your lifes and so will all your associates.... BUT, the 80% of Americans and all Christians globally are NOT confused about any of it and so slanting this article in such a hair brained fashion to question the whole of it, e.g. did David ever exist , etc etc is carrying "de rigeur" to the point of absurdity for such widely held and "known" beliefs.
YOU do not know the sun even exists, but you do get a pretty clear clue each day with its rising.
Meantime, put a couple of shards under your pillow, and hope you have an erika moment.
/s/ CINCU, CMP,KK —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
76.202.166.166 (
talk)
00:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
"80% of Americans and all Christians globally" A relatively small minority of the total population of the planet then? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.199.146 ( talk) 17:55, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
"Slanting this article in such a hair brained fasion" - If it is so clearly unquestionable that such a king existed, there will be no problem in testing the evidence will there? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.65.25.188 ( talk) 00:18, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
This section does not fit its title. Not only does it begin with an anthropological, as opposed to a theological or historical, perspcetive which no Christian (or Jewish) beliver would maintain (i.e. that both stem from the "Jebusite Zion cult"), but the only reference given is from a strongly Messianic website. To head the section with "In Christianity" means that the section should, at the least, be formed around the union of common perspcetives of primary Christian sects (e.g. Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholicism or mainline Protestantism). This needs to be drastically altered to reflect, not an athropological or myopically Messianic view, but one that is much more indicative of historic christian theology. Otherwise, the section needs to be re-titled. I'm willing to do this myself, but would appreciate input from others on the validity of my comments here and if you agree then what the content should be.
I am going to submit an example of how I would like this to be rewritten sometime this weekend and would like some review...
lead image was replaced, but I moved it back. The section where David's statue appeared mentioned it explicitly and it's more appropriate there. Pico, the reason I added LMLK seal is because this dates to the first Temple and it means "KING", seems very interesting for a see also in the article of Israel's most famous king of roughly the same era. Amoruso 18:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I deleted a map (fairly recently added) which said it showed the extent of David's kingdom at his death. My reason for doing so is that it comes from a personal website run by someone called Rusty Russel (see http://www.bible-history.com/biblehistoryonline_aboutbho.php). Not that I have anything against Rusty Russell, but he admits that he's no academic, just a man of faith. Faith is a wonderful thing, but it doesn't produce good maps. We need something more solid than this. PiCo 06:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I added the section of "Birth and early life." The next day it was deleted by PiCo on the grounds that it is "all very controversial and based on assumptions rather than the biblical text." I disagree with PiCo that it is based on assumption. Every single point given is straight from the biblcial text: He was the son of Jesse (Ruth 4:22; Matthew 1:6); descendant of Judah (Genesis 46:12-Ruth 4:18-22; Matthew 1:3-6) great-grandson of Ruth (Ruth 4:13,17; Matthew 1:5-6); Ruth immigrated with her mother-in-law (Naomi)from Moab to Israel (Ruth 1:16,19); David was possibly born illegitimately (Psalm 51:5); called Elhanan as late as when killed Goliath (2 Samuel 21:19). If all of this is controversial, sorry—it's straight from the biblical text. I am reinstating the section. — Keith H. 23:20, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
The King James version of 2:Samuel 11:3-4:
Lying with another man's wife is adultery. I do not believe there is any doubt about the accuracy of this translation; and if so, the article text should remain and the doubt be explained. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:55, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
User:Shirahadasha is indeed correct. An interpretation of the bible does not consitute a credible source. However, there would be nothing wrong in including a source that states which groups interpret the bible in this way, and adapting the text to make it clear that this is an interpretation by those groups, rather than stating it as a fact as it is currently worded. -- Rebroad 15:32, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Since it seems that some editors cannot refrain from tendentious and illiterate edits, I have repaired the violation of English idiom and marked it as worthless. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:34, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Compromise edit! Is that serious? "Furthermore, according to David's apologists, the death of Uriah . . ." When you say David's "apologists", you have injected a very extreme POV that must be removed or I shall do so. Tuvia613 ( talk) 08:50, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
I've rewritten the first section of the paragraph in question to bring it closer to Shirahadasha's guideline regarding the Summary section, that it should reflect the wording of the text itself, without interpretations. (I can't find now where he says this, but I think itight be in an edit summary on the main page). I've made Bathsheba's erlationship with Uriah (i.e., that she is his wife) into a direct quote from the text - in fact, on a quick reading, the text says 3 times that B. is Uriah's wife, the last time, 2 Sam. 9, being the words of YHWH himself). I've deleted the footnote, as the Talmudic tradition that she was technically not';' his wife is too important to be buried away like that - it belongs under the section now headed "David in later Abrahamic tradition", under the section on Judaism. Incidentally, it also needs to be moer percisely identified in that section, with a reference to just where in the Talmud this traditoin is to be found. I hope we are getting closer to a solution on this, though I'm sure we haven't arrived yet, such being the emotions involved. PiCo 03:04, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I've made some revisions to the summary section which I hope other editors will look at kindly. Perhaps the most obvious s that I've turned the narrative part into present tense. The reason for this is stylistic: it markes the words of the summar (present te4nse) from the direct quotes from the text (normal tense).
The other major alteration is the addition of a subsection on David playing the lyre befoer Saul. I did this because the theme is an important one in Western art - the famous painting by Rembrandt, for example, which is illustrating the article. (As an aside, it's very difficult deciding what should go into the summary and what can be ledft out. The David story is full of incidents, and it's impossible to include them all. My guyiding preinciple has been to include those which are important to the story itself, and those which are important because they've entered into Western art and literature).
I've also made some revisions to the details here and there. Mostly this has been aimed at saving space. But I've diivided one existing subsection into three, on Jerusalem, the Covenant, and David's kingdom, because all three are important to the story.
Grateful for comments. PiCo 06:22, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Anybody have any ideas/suggestions on how to improve the article? New sections? I learned today, incidentally, that Charlemagne's courtiers used to flatter him by comparing him to David. Must be lots of details like that waiting out there somewhere. PiCo 07:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
It would be good to add some discussion of the heartbreaking rift between David and Michal. Meheller 23:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I changed the previous summary of David and Mormonism using some the canonical scripture of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I also added some citations. I hope it is clearer now. Any suggestions? Wrad 01:04, 17 February 2007
Doesn't it say somewhere in the Talmud or via 'legend' that King David had red hair? Has anyone else seen, read, or heard of this anywhere? -- WassermannNYC 11:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Biblical Hebrew was written without vowels, which (a) made puns irresistable, and created problems for copyists at a later date when vowels became usual - what vowels to put in? There's a whole series of puns here, all based on the fact that all these words, when written without vowels, are identical or nearly so. The words are: adamah, earth; adam, man; adom, red; and dam, blood. There were no capital letters in Hebrew either, which meant that it was impossible to discriminate between adam meaning man in general, and Adam as a name for the first man. PiCo 06:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if I like the Islam template. It takes up a lot of space and attention, and isn't that relevant. Plus, there is no Christian or Jewish Template, so why this one? Any objections to removing it? Wrad 23:24, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
It appears that it was spelt וד instead of דוד however it should also be noted that David in modern Hebrew is often spelt דויד -- Belfry 10:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
1730 dowd dode
or (shortened) dod {dode}; from an unused root meaning properly, to boil, i.e. (figuratively) to love; by implication, a love- token, lover, friend; specifically an uncle:--(well-)beloved, father's brother, love, uncle.
1732 David daw-veed'
rarely (fully); Daviyd {daw-veed'}; from the same as 'dowd' (1730); loving; David, the youngest son of Jesse:--David. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.190.117.25 ( talk) 22:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I think that the above section is too long, or at least needs to be split into subsections. It takes up more prose than the rest of the article combined. Wrad 07:41, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
The section about excavations in the City of David are somewhat misleading and contradict other Wikipedia articles, i.e. 'not only are there no signs of monumental architecture, but even distinctive 10th century pottery shards are absent'. In 1997, the archeologist Eilat Mazar discovered pottery shards and the foundation of a monumental public building which were dated to the 10th century. reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Stone_Structure and http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/08/04/news/david.php harlan ( talk) 21:16, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
size public buildings might perhaps view the "wall" left as part of the ancient temple mount which contains in size likely the largest (200 ton plus) sizes stones ever moved in history in its lower layers of stones...all dated to the Solomon temple period of 1,000 bc. These largest stones used in buildilng in history might not be able to penetrate consciousness as monumental, but there they are. /s/ willy shard sr
I see mention of the Tel Dan stele in the article, but I see no mention of either the Merneptah Stele or the Mesha Stele, both of which are significant to any discussion of David's historicity. There are even nice WP articles for both. Can someone add mention of these - or should I? -- 72.43.196.198 ( talk) 03:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
The Abishag article has a good medieval illustration of David and Abishag. If anyone knows how to put pictures into articles (I don't), it would be nice to have it in our David article. Any volunteers? PiCo 13:08, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
The article contained the phrase:
Observations such as this serve to underline the likelihood that the narrative is drawn from numerous originally independent sources.
This clearly violates WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR. It states an unsourced conclusion as fact. Let's start with sourcing; who makes this claim? Jayjg (talk) 16:27, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
PiCo 17:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
As I mentioned in another section above, the portion of the Historical section about excavations in the City of David are somewhat selective and misleading. They also contradict other Wikipedia articles, i.e. 'not only are there no signs of monumental architecture, but even distinctive 10th century pottery shards are absent'. In 1997, the archeologist Eilat Mazar discovered pottery shards and the foundation of a monumental public building which were dated to the 10th century. An IHT article states 'Other scholars who have toured the site are skeptical that the foundationwalls Eilat Mazar has discovered are David's palace. But they acknowledge that what she has uncovered is rare and important - a major public building from around the 10th century BC with pottery shards that date from the time of David and Solomon and a government seal of an official mentioned in the book of Jeremiah.' reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Stone_Structure and http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/08/04/news/david.php harlan ( talk) 22:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone know anything about this site, how reliable it is? [1]. The info seems in line with what I've read elsewhere abt the Talmud and David, but I'm not sure. PiCo 11:32, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Not the point. Wiki is not the place to advertise blogs. This is not being included as a source, it's being added to the external links. I'm sure every word of these papers are true and verifiable. NOT THE POINT>they don't belong. Jeff 02:20, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
You're right Pico, we were talking about different things. I wasn't aware you used it as a source. I thought you brought this up the same day it was added to the External links, and my response was under that assumption. I was having a background discussion with the editor that added it asking why not just use it for sourcing some of the sourceless statements in the article. I didn't realize you had done just that. It's clearly a weighty piece of resource material by any definition. Who is that guy writing all that anyways? It's great. I will now fade to black. Do with the blogs as you will. Bigger fish to fry, right? Jeff 08:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Why isn't Michaelangelo's David the lead picture? That is certainly the most iconic artistic representation of David- and a lot less gruesome than the one currently in the lead. 138.237.165.140 02:31, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Any idea of why a link to psi is in the links? -- 67.181.57.9 ( talk) 19:25, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Is anyone else concerned about the move without discussion? The move involved capitalization of "biblical". There is no exact wording in the MoS to support either position, and searching through various other manuals of style, it seems like both are acceptable. I think this is a case of where wikipedia shouldn't take sides, and allow both (like American vs. British). However, assuming both are ok, it would be unnecessary to change between the two. Does anyone feel like at the very least, this move should have been discussed on talk first, or have gone through WP:RM? - Andrew c [talk] 15:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Might the disambiguation line in italics at the top of the article be a... comma splice?! 212.84.105.227 ( talk) 23:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Am I the only one who thinks that "David" should redirect to a disambig page and not to this david. I think the disambig page fits the word david more than its primary use.
See adam for a similar subject and/or name.
Anyone agree?? -- Mattburlage ( talk) 01:43, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Anyone think, like me, that this article is getting a bit over-illustrated? PiCo ( talk) 13:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Funny question but I think its better to have too many then too few. Bolinda ( talk) 04:42, 20 September 2008 (UTC)Belinda
According to the lead, David is "claimed by the bible to be the third king of the united Kingdom of Israel after Saul and Ish-Bosheth." So far as I know Ish-Bosheth was not king of a united Israel. Any views? PiCo ( talk) 12:34, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
do we really need that there? InfernoXV ( talk) 16:01, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
In this like -- In the wilderness David gathers a band of followers and becomes the champion of the oppressed while evading the pursuit of Saul. -- what is the source for David being a champion of the oppressed? And what does that entail exactly? Tuvia613 ( talk) 07:14, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
I have been through Samuel I and II, and I do not see the statement "gathers a band of followers" or "champion of the oppressed" fitting with the narrative. Can you reference any specific chapters/verses? Tuvia613 ( talk) 05:48, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
The headline "Carbon 14 evidence" reeks of religious bias. Cf the sentence:
The site is a massive fortification of the type that could only have been built by a powerful kingdom for defensive purposes.
This is just unsolicited conjecture. Would it be impossible for a smaller state to build a strong fortress? Has anybody visited Petra or Constantinople? And where is the evidence that this fortress was Jewish, not Phoenician or any other nationality? The source is the Albright Institute, leaders of the Biblical_archaeology_school, who are religious fundamentalists who spent their lives - and much money - trying to prove the veracity of the Bible. The details are made quite clear on the aforementioned page. You cannot be a priori supporter of the view that the Bible is literally true and still be considered an objective authority on archaeology. There are no active links in the section - and the only reference (repeated 3 times) is to an article in a newspaper, not a scientific journal. I have removed the section, and until somebody presents a less partisan account of its veracity it should remain removed. Sponsianus ( talk) 19:31, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps the article should mention some of the recent discoveries which have made news in recent weeks, though further analysis is needed. If the discoveries prove to be what they claim, then this article will need to be revised. -- 75.175.79.88 ( talk) 20:50, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I think "David" should redirect to a disambiguation page, not here. I'm not going to change this, pending discussion, but I throw this out there. David is far too common of a word to redirect to a biblical figure. I was looking up the painter, whose name is spelled the same. 65.117.234.99 ( talk) 13:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Greek translations were done of the Bible hundreds of years prior to Arabic ones. Writing David in Arabic is like writing David in Russian, it is completely irrelevant to David! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 35.9.92.28 ( talk) 18:48, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I've made some edits to the lead which other editors are taking exception to, so I'll explain here.
Cush says that Abimelech was king of a united Israel. Well, he wasn't - a king had to be chosen by God, and Abimelech's sin was precisely that he hadn't been chosen. The D.History is obsessed with the idea of kingship, and what constitutes rightful kingship - it's the single major theme running through the whole series of books from Joshua to the end of Kings. Yahweh (according to the DeutH) was Israel's original king. Eventually he chose Saul, and then David. Abimelech was never chosen, and was therefore not a rightful king.
For "the books of Psalms etc etc are included in the Bible", we can assume a level of basic knowledge for our readers - not many people, in fact probably none, will not be aware that Psalms and Samuel are books in the Bible. But the statement that Psalms, Kings and Chronicles are primary sources for our knowledge of David is factually wrong anyway. Samuel is the primary source, not the others. Psalms wasn't written by David - the article explains this - and in any case contains nothing about his life; Kings contains nothing about him after I Kings 4, and even then deals only with his death; and Chronicles was written centuries later and is a revision of Samuel, not an independent work. PiCo ( talk) 08:01, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
Two places in this article use a transliteration the Tetragrammaton (each with a different spelling). In my opinion, there is no need for the Word in this context. I suggest that it be replaced with "God" without any loss of meaning, and, more importantly, with more clarity for the average reader. Moreover, use of the Tetragrammaton in such a casual way in this article is unnecessarily offensive to many readers. In this regard, please refer to Wikipedia:Etiquette. Shlomokatz ( talk) 20:44, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
There's also an issue of practicality I think. There is a wiki page about Yahweh and at least 750 individual articles link to this. So it's not a word that's going to be removed from wikipedia even if we were to remove it from here. Contaldo80 ( talk) 09:43, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I removed the following, and was probably more curt about it than I should have been, but I'm not sure it is relevant. There are probably a lot of speculative opinions that could be included in this article. I'm not sure why this is a standout.
Steven McKenzie, Associate Professor of the Hebrew Bible at Rhodes College, Memphis, Tennessee, USA and author of King David: A Biography, argues that the Biblical version of David was conceived by spin doctors. He states the belief that David actually came from a wealthy family and was "ambitious and ruthless": "The vigor with which the apology in the Bible asserts David's innocence against Saul strongly suggests that he was in fact involved in a plot against him." The story with Goliath was probably part of the propaganda in David's favour. McKenzie's view is that David was a tyrant who murdered his political opponents, including his own sons. [1]
Sweetmoose6 ( talk) 03:42, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
The Text currently reads:
God withdraws his favour from Saul, king of Israel, and sends the prophet Samuel to seek a new king for his people from the sons of Jesus of Bethlehem. Seven of Jesus' sons pass before Samuel, but Samuel says "The LORD has not chosen these." He then asks "Are these all the sons you have?" and Jesus answers, "There is still the youngest but he is tending the sheep." David is brought to Samuel, and "the LORD said, "Rise and anoint him; he is the one.""[1]
Samuel did not choose from Jesus of Bethlehem (i.e., Jesus from the Christian New Testament). Rather, Samuel chose from Jesse of Bethlehem. Unless these names are different translations of the same name (which I've never heard of) then the article as it stands is incorrect.
It should read:
God withdraws his favour from Saul, king of Israel, and sends the prophet Samuel to seek a new king for his people from the sons of Jesse of Bethlehem. Seven of Jesse's sons pass before Samuel, but Samuel says "The LORD has not chosen these." He then asks "Are these all the sons you have?" and Jesse answers, "There is still the youngest but he is tending the sheep." David is brought to Samuel, and "the LORD said, "Rise and anoint him; he is the one.""[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.177.99.123 ( talk) 18:58, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
I am surprised this has not been brought up before, but the Talmud states that David's liason with Bat-Sheva was not technically adultery. Adultery in Jewish Biblical law is when the woman is married to another man. The Talmud explains that all soldiers in King David;s army gave their wives conditional divorce decrees to avoid problems of soldiers whose bodies were never recovered. Without a body or witnesses who saw a man die, his wife is not considered a widow and may not yet remarry.
While it is a bit complicated for those unfamiliar with the times and laws, I can easily explain more if needed. But I wonder if I am just missing where this was discussed already as a possible addition? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuvia613 ( talk • contribs) 22:38, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Searching David links directly to this page. Clearly, this is wrong and should go to a disambiguation page instead?-- Frank Fontaine ( talk) 12:57, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
In the opening introduction, a sentence reads
"The narrative depicts him throughout his life as conflicted between his ruthless ambition and lusts"
the characteristic "ruthless" is subjective and does not belong in this article. It certainly cannot be attributed to someone based on one event.
ReaverFlash ( talk) 15:27, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Actually, ruthlessness is a characteristic, not the definition of a specific action.
Wikipedia is not a place for personal opinion, while actions may be construed as being ruthless, labelling someone as having ruthless ambitions is not what encyclopedias does.
Your argument is "these actions are ruthless, therefore he has ruthless ambitions". Even you acknowledge that these actions can be viewed as strong rather than ruthless. But they don't belong in the article because they're personal opinions.
ReaverFlash ( talk) 16:07, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes, encyclopedias have opinions, but they must be presented in a neutral manner. Attaching a characteristic to someone is hardly neutral.
"regardless of effect" is also debatable. There are about a dozen ways you can descibe the events in David's life and a dozen characteristics can be arguably attached to him, but they are not because it is not neutral. ReaverFlash ( talk) 18:44, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Saying that other parts of the article aren't neutral does not mean that the article cannot be neutral. The Bible does mention that David is righteous, and it mentions that he has faults, but it certainly doesn't depict his ambitions as ruthless. Although other parts of the article are somewhat debatable, it does not mean that all other POV material should be left on the page. ReaverFlash ( talk) 13:37, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
15:10, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Actually that is only one definition of ruthless, and not even the main one. Wikipedia presents opinion, but they must be presented in a neutral way.
The Bible never mentions David as ruthless, not even with the definition you have stated. "Regardless of effect" is very much debatable. The onus is on those who want to include it to provide objective proof that this is what the Bible is depicting him as. Ruthless is not defined by mere actions, but is a characteristic. If the Bible mentions David as ruthless, it would be perfectly acceptable to include it. ReaverFlash ( talk) 15:39, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Hi, just thought I would warn you that someone is trying very hard to vandalize this page. This link has been spammed on imageboard sites with the obvious intent of messing with this page. I don't know what you can do with this information, possibly lock the page from editing or something, I just thought I'd warn you of this as I don't appreciate people doing such a pointless thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.113.119.195 ( talk) 08:32, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone put any historical evidence on this article?
As always, Jew-haters hide behind the mask of "academic neutrality" to discredit any and all facts, no matter how self-evident or abundant, so long as they support Judaism or Jewish national claims. Even the very existence of King David is questioned. PiCo, just admit it, you're a Muslim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.14.36.197 ( talk) 05:22, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
Positions on Jerusalem cites 1004 BCE and King David as crucial in determining Israel's right to Jerusalem. Is there any evidence for the year 1004 BCE?
The hebrew words for "many" and "forty" were very similar, and would often be used interchangably. Hebrew is a language that is generally strong in metaphor but weak in precision. ("The World May Know" DVD set, Vanderlaan) Swift99 06:22, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
May I please ask what is meant specifically by purported events of David's lifetime ? (Joe Gatt, 2nd May 2007)
Please forgive my ignorance but the historicity section claims that there is lack of solid archaeological evidence of the existence of kingdom of David or even a big Judean kingdom. Then why does the first line of the article claim David to be the second king of united Israel? Has it been proved beyond doubt? Should it not be worded differently, something like David is claimed/said to be the second king of Israel according to the Hebrew bible? (Ambar, 1st August 2007)
In this article and consistently on the history channel, you have confused academics pondering what appears to them to be the unknownable, did a single soul from the Bible ever exist at all? And then you have those confused "scholars" warbling over their meager finds of pottery shards.
Well, fellows, it IS clear you will be confused the remainder of your lifes and so will all your associates.... BUT, the 80% of Americans and all Christians globally are NOT confused about any of it and so slanting this article in such a hair brained fashion to question the whole of it, e.g. did David ever exist , etc etc is carrying "de rigeur" to the point of absurdity for such widely held and "known" beliefs.
YOU do not know the sun even exists, but you do get a pretty clear clue each day with its rising.
Meantime, put a couple of shards under your pillow, and hope you have an erika moment.
/s/ CINCU, CMP,KK —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
76.202.166.166 (
talk)
00:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
"80% of Americans and all Christians globally" A relatively small minority of the total population of the planet then? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.199.146 ( talk) 17:55, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
"Slanting this article in such a hair brained fasion" - If it is so clearly unquestionable that such a king existed, there will be no problem in testing the evidence will there? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.65.25.188 ( talk) 00:18, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
This section does not fit its title. Not only does it begin with an anthropological, as opposed to a theological or historical, perspcetive which no Christian (or Jewish) beliver would maintain (i.e. that both stem from the "Jebusite Zion cult"), but the only reference given is from a strongly Messianic website. To head the section with "In Christianity" means that the section should, at the least, be formed around the union of common perspcetives of primary Christian sects (e.g. Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholicism or mainline Protestantism). This needs to be drastically altered to reflect, not an athropological or myopically Messianic view, but one that is much more indicative of historic christian theology. Otherwise, the section needs to be re-titled. I'm willing to do this myself, but would appreciate input from others on the validity of my comments here and if you agree then what the content should be.
I am going to submit an example of how I would like this to be rewritten sometime this weekend and would like some review...
lead image was replaced, but I moved it back. The section where David's statue appeared mentioned it explicitly and it's more appropriate there. Pico, the reason I added LMLK seal is because this dates to the first Temple and it means "KING", seems very interesting for a see also in the article of Israel's most famous king of roughly the same era. Amoruso 18:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I deleted a map (fairly recently added) which said it showed the extent of David's kingdom at his death. My reason for doing so is that it comes from a personal website run by someone called Rusty Russel (see http://www.bible-history.com/biblehistoryonline_aboutbho.php). Not that I have anything against Rusty Russell, but he admits that he's no academic, just a man of faith. Faith is a wonderful thing, but it doesn't produce good maps. We need something more solid than this. PiCo 06:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I added the section of "Birth and early life." The next day it was deleted by PiCo on the grounds that it is "all very controversial and based on assumptions rather than the biblical text." I disagree with PiCo that it is based on assumption. Every single point given is straight from the biblcial text: He was the son of Jesse (Ruth 4:22; Matthew 1:6); descendant of Judah (Genesis 46:12-Ruth 4:18-22; Matthew 1:3-6) great-grandson of Ruth (Ruth 4:13,17; Matthew 1:5-6); Ruth immigrated with her mother-in-law (Naomi)from Moab to Israel (Ruth 1:16,19); David was possibly born illegitimately (Psalm 51:5); called Elhanan as late as when killed Goliath (2 Samuel 21:19). If all of this is controversial, sorry—it's straight from the biblical text. I am reinstating the section. — Keith H. 23:20, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
The King James version of 2:Samuel 11:3-4:
Lying with another man's wife is adultery. I do not believe there is any doubt about the accuracy of this translation; and if so, the article text should remain and the doubt be explained. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:55, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
User:Shirahadasha is indeed correct. An interpretation of the bible does not consitute a credible source. However, there would be nothing wrong in including a source that states which groups interpret the bible in this way, and adapting the text to make it clear that this is an interpretation by those groups, rather than stating it as a fact as it is currently worded. -- Rebroad 15:32, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Since it seems that some editors cannot refrain from tendentious and illiterate edits, I have repaired the violation of English idiom and marked it as worthless. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:34, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Compromise edit! Is that serious? "Furthermore, according to David's apologists, the death of Uriah . . ." When you say David's "apologists", you have injected a very extreme POV that must be removed or I shall do so. Tuvia613 ( talk) 08:50, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
I've rewritten the first section of the paragraph in question to bring it closer to Shirahadasha's guideline regarding the Summary section, that it should reflect the wording of the text itself, without interpretations. (I can't find now where he says this, but I think itight be in an edit summary on the main page). I've made Bathsheba's erlationship with Uriah (i.e., that she is his wife) into a direct quote from the text - in fact, on a quick reading, the text says 3 times that B. is Uriah's wife, the last time, 2 Sam. 9, being the words of YHWH himself). I've deleted the footnote, as the Talmudic tradition that she was technically not';' his wife is too important to be buried away like that - it belongs under the section now headed "David in later Abrahamic tradition", under the section on Judaism. Incidentally, it also needs to be moer percisely identified in that section, with a reference to just where in the Talmud this traditoin is to be found. I hope we are getting closer to a solution on this, though I'm sure we haven't arrived yet, such being the emotions involved. PiCo 03:04, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I've made some revisions to the summary section which I hope other editors will look at kindly. Perhaps the most obvious s that I've turned the narrative part into present tense. The reason for this is stylistic: it markes the words of the summar (present te4nse) from the direct quotes from the text (normal tense).
The other major alteration is the addition of a subsection on David playing the lyre befoer Saul. I did this because the theme is an important one in Western art - the famous painting by Rembrandt, for example, which is illustrating the article. (As an aside, it's very difficult deciding what should go into the summary and what can be ledft out. The David story is full of incidents, and it's impossible to include them all. My guyiding preinciple has been to include those which are important to the story itself, and those which are important because they've entered into Western art and literature).
I've also made some revisions to the details here and there. Mostly this has been aimed at saving space. But I've diivided one existing subsection into three, on Jerusalem, the Covenant, and David's kingdom, because all three are important to the story.
Grateful for comments. PiCo 06:22, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Anybody have any ideas/suggestions on how to improve the article? New sections? I learned today, incidentally, that Charlemagne's courtiers used to flatter him by comparing him to David. Must be lots of details like that waiting out there somewhere. PiCo 07:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
It would be good to add some discussion of the heartbreaking rift between David and Michal. Meheller 23:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I changed the previous summary of David and Mormonism using some the canonical scripture of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I also added some citations. I hope it is clearer now. Any suggestions? Wrad 01:04, 17 February 2007
Doesn't it say somewhere in the Talmud or via 'legend' that King David had red hair? Has anyone else seen, read, or heard of this anywhere? -- WassermannNYC 11:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Biblical Hebrew was written without vowels, which (a) made puns irresistable, and created problems for copyists at a later date when vowels became usual - what vowels to put in? There's a whole series of puns here, all based on the fact that all these words, when written without vowels, are identical or nearly so. The words are: adamah, earth; adam, man; adom, red; and dam, blood. There were no capital letters in Hebrew either, which meant that it was impossible to discriminate between adam meaning man in general, and Adam as a name for the first man. PiCo 06:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if I like the Islam template. It takes up a lot of space and attention, and isn't that relevant. Plus, there is no Christian or Jewish Template, so why this one? Any objections to removing it? Wrad 23:24, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
It appears that it was spelt וד instead of דוד however it should also be noted that David in modern Hebrew is often spelt דויד -- Belfry 10:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
1730 dowd dode
or (shortened) dod {dode}; from an unused root meaning properly, to boil, i.e. (figuratively) to love; by implication, a love- token, lover, friend; specifically an uncle:--(well-)beloved, father's brother, love, uncle.
1732 David daw-veed'
rarely (fully); Daviyd {daw-veed'}; from the same as 'dowd' (1730); loving; David, the youngest son of Jesse:--David. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.190.117.25 ( talk) 22:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I think that the above section is too long, or at least needs to be split into subsections. It takes up more prose than the rest of the article combined. Wrad 07:41, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
The section about excavations in the City of David are somewhat misleading and contradict other Wikipedia articles, i.e. 'not only are there no signs of monumental architecture, but even distinctive 10th century pottery shards are absent'. In 1997, the archeologist Eilat Mazar discovered pottery shards and the foundation of a monumental public building which were dated to the 10th century. reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Stone_Structure and http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/08/04/news/david.php harlan ( talk) 21:16, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
size public buildings might perhaps view the "wall" left as part of the ancient temple mount which contains in size likely the largest (200 ton plus) sizes stones ever moved in history in its lower layers of stones...all dated to the Solomon temple period of 1,000 bc. These largest stones used in buildilng in history might not be able to penetrate consciousness as monumental, but there they are. /s/ willy shard sr
I see mention of the Tel Dan stele in the article, but I see no mention of either the Merneptah Stele or the Mesha Stele, both of which are significant to any discussion of David's historicity. There are even nice WP articles for both. Can someone add mention of these - or should I? -- 72.43.196.198 ( talk) 03:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
The Abishag article has a good medieval illustration of David and Abishag. If anyone knows how to put pictures into articles (I don't), it would be nice to have it in our David article. Any volunteers? PiCo 13:08, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
The article contained the phrase:
Observations such as this serve to underline the likelihood that the narrative is drawn from numerous originally independent sources.
This clearly violates WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR. It states an unsourced conclusion as fact. Let's start with sourcing; who makes this claim? Jayjg (talk) 16:27, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
PiCo 17:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
As I mentioned in another section above, the portion of the Historical section about excavations in the City of David are somewhat selective and misleading. They also contradict other Wikipedia articles, i.e. 'not only are there no signs of monumental architecture, but even distinctive 10th century pottery shards are absent'. In 1997, the archeologist Eilat Mazar discovered pottery shards and the foundation of a monumental public building which were dated to the 10th century. An IHT article states 'Other scholars who have toured the site are skeptical that the foundationwalls Eilat Mazar has discovered are David's palace. But they acknowledge that what she has uncovered is rare and important - a major public building from around the 10th century BC with pottery shards that date from the time of David and Solomon and a government seal of an official mentioned in the book of Jeremiah.' reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Stone_Structure and http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/08/04/news/david.php harlan ( talk) 22:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone know anything about this site, how reliable it is? [1]. The info seems in line with what I've read elsewhere abt the Talmud and David, but I'm not sure. PiCo 11:32, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Not the point. Wiki is not the place to advertise blogs. This is not being included as a source, it's being added to the external links. I'm sure every word of these papers are true and verifiable. NOT THE POINT>they don't belong. Jeff 02:20, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
You're right Pico, we were talking about different things. I wasn't aware you used it as a source. I thought you brought this up the same day it was added to the External links, and my response was under that assumption. I was having a background discussion with the editor that added it asking why not just use it for sourcing some of the sourceless statements in the article. I didn't realize you had done just that. It's clearly a weighty piece of resource material by any definition. Who is that guy writing all that anyways? It's great. I will now fade to black. Do with the blogs as you will. Bigger fish to fry, right? Jeff 08:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Why isn't Michaelangelo's David the lead picture? That is certainly the most iconic artistic representation of David- and a lot less gruesome than the one currently in the lead. 138.237.165.140 02:31, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Any idea of why a link to psi is in the links? -- 67.181.57.9 ( talk) 19:25, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Is anyone else concerned about the move without discussion? The move involved capitalization of "biblical". There is no exact wording in the MoS to support either position, and searching through various other manuals of style, it seems like both are acceptable. I think this is a case of where wikipedia shouldn't take sides, and allow both (like American vs. British). However, assuming both are ok, it would be unnecessary to change between the two. Does anyone feel like at the very least, this move should have been discussed on talk first, or have gone through WP:RM? - Andrew c [talk] 15:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Might the disambiguation line in italics at the top of the article be a... comma splice?! 212.84.105.227 ( talk) 23:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Am I the only one who thinks that "David" should redirect to a disambig page and not to this david. I think the disambig page fits the word david more than its primary use.
See adam for a similar subject and/or name.
Anyone agree?? -- Mattburlage ( talk) 01:43, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Anyone think, like me, that this article is getting a bit over-illustrated? PiCo ( talk) 13:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Funny question but I think its better to have too many then too few. Bolinda ( talk) 04:42, 20 September 2008 (UTC)Belinda
According to the lead, David is "claimed by the bible to be the third king of the united Kingdom of Israel after Saul and Ish-Bosheth." So far as I know Ish-Bosheth was not king of a united Israel. Any views? PiCo ( talk) 12:34, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
do we really need that there? InfernoXV ( talk) 16:01, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
In this like -- In the wilderness David gathers a band of followers and becomes the champion of the oppressed while evading the pursuit of Saul. -- what is the source for David being a champion of the oppressed? And what does that entail exactly? Tuvia613 ( talk) 07:14, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
I have been through Samuel I and II, and I do not see the statement "gathers a band of followers" or "champion of the oppressed" fitting with the narrative. Can you reference any specific chapters/verses? Tuvia613 ( talk) 05:48, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
The headline "Carbon 14 evidence" reeks of religious bias. Cf the sentence:
The site is a massive fortification of the type that could only have been built by a powerful kingdom for defensive purposes.
This is just unsolicited conjecture. Would it be impossible for a smaller state to build a strong fortress? Has anybody visited Petra or Constantinople? And where is the evidence that this fortress was Jewish, not Phoenician or any other nationality? The source is the Albright Institute, leaders of the Biblical_archaeology_school, who are religious fundamentalists who spent their lives - and much money - trying to prove the veracity of the Bible. The details are made quite clear on the aforementioned page. You cannot be a priori supporter of the view that the Bible is literally true and still be considered an objective authority on archaeology. There are no active links in the section - and the only reference (repeated 3 times) is to an article in a newspaper, not a scientific journal. I have removed the section, and until somebody presents a less partisan account of its veracity it should remain removed. Sponsianus ( talk) 19:31, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps the article should mention some of the recent discoveries which have made news in recent weeks, though further analysis is needed. If the discoveries prove to be what they claim, then this article will need to be revised. -- 75.175.79.88 ( talk) 20:50, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I think "David" should redirect to a disambiguation page, not here. I'm not going to change this, pending discussion, but I throw this out there. David is far too common of a word to redirect to a biblical figure. I was looking up the painter, whose name is spelled the same. 65.117.234.99 ( talk) 13:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Greek translations were done of the Bible hundreds of years prior to Arabic ones. Writing David in Arabic is like writing David in Russian, it is completely irrelevant to David! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 35.9.92.28 ( talk) 18:48, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I've made some edits to the lead which other editors are taking exception to, so I'll explain here.
Cush says that Abimelech was king of a united Israel. Well, he wasn't - a king had to be chosen by God, and Abimelech's sin was precisely that he hadn't been chosen. The D.History is obsessed with the idea of kingship, and what constitutes rightful kingship - it's the single major theme running through the whole series of books from Joshua to the end of Kings. Yahweh (according to the DeutH) was Israel's original king. Eventually he chose Saul, and then David. Abimelech was never chosen, and was therefore not a rightful king.
For "the books of Psalms etc etc are included in the Bible", we can assume a level of basic knowledge for our readers - not many people, in fact probably none, will not be aware that Psalms and Samuel are books in the Bible. But the statement that Psalms, Kings and Chronicles are primary sources for our knowledge of David is factually wrong anyway. Samuel is the primary source, not the others. Psalms wasn't written by David - the article explains this - and in any case contains nothing about his life; Kings contains nothing about him after I Kings 4, and even then deals only with his death; and Chronicles was written centuries later and is a revision of Samuel, not an independent work. PiCo ( talk) 08:01, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
Two places in this article use a transliteration the Tetragrammaton (each with a different spelling). In my opinion, there is no need for the Word in this context. I suggest that it be replaced with "God" without any loss of meaning, and, more importantly, with more clarity for the average reader. Moreover, use of the Tetragrammaton in such a casual way in this article is unnecessarily offensive to many readers. In this regard, please refer to Wikipedia:Etiquette. Shlomokatz ( talk) 20:44, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
There's also an issue of practicality I think. There is a wiki page about Yahweh and at least 750 individual articles link to this. So it's not a word that's going to be removed from wikipedia even if we were to remove it from here. Contaldo80 ( talk) 09:43, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I removed the following, and was probably more curt about it than I should have been, but I'm not sure it is relevant. There are probably a lot of speculative opinions that could be included in this article. I'm not sure why this is a standout.
Steven McKenzie, Associate Professor of the Hebrew Bible at Rhodes College, Memphis, Tennessee, USA and author of King David: A Biography, argues that the Biblical version of David was conceived by spin doctors. He states the belief that David actually came from a wealthy family and was "ambitious and ruthless": "The vigor with which the apology in the Bible asserts David's innocence against Saul strongly suggests that he was in fact involved in a plot against him." The story with Goliath was probably part of the propaganda in David's favour. McKenzie's view is that David was a tyrant who murdered his political opponents, including his own sons. [1]
Sweetmoose6 ( talk) 03:42, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
The Text currently reads:
God withdraws his favour from Saul, king of Israel, and sends the prophet Samuel to seek a new king for his people from the sons of Jesus of Bethlehem. Seven of Jesus' sons pass before Samuel, but Samuel says "The LORD has not chosen these." He then asks "Are these all the sons you have?" and Jesus answers, "There is still the youngest but he is tending the sheep." David is brought to Samuel, and "the LORD said, "Rise and anoint him; he is the one.""[1]
Samuel did not choose from Jesus of Bethlehem (i.e., Jesus from the Christian New Testament). Rather, Samuel chose from Jesse of Bethlehem. Unless these names are different translations of the same name (which I've never heard of) then the article as it stands is incorrect.
It should read:
God withdraws his favour from Saul, king of Israel, and sends the prophet Samuel to seek a new king for his people from the sons of Jesse of Bethlehem. Seven of Jesse's sons pass before Samuel, but Samuel says "The LORD has not chosen these." He then asks "Are these all the sons you have?" and Jesse answers, "There is still the youngest but he is tending the sheep." David is brought to Samuel, and "the LORD said, "Rise and anoint him; he is the one.""[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.177.99.123 ( talk) 18:58, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
I am surprised this has not been brought up before, but the Talmud states that David's liason with Bat-Sheva was not technically adultery. Adultery in Jewish Biblical law is when the woman is married to another man. The Talmud explains that all soldiers in King David;s army gave their wives conditional divorce decrees to avoid problems of soldiers whose bodies were never recovered. Without a body or witnesses who saw a man die, his wife is not considered a widow and may not yet remarry.
While it is a bit complicated for those unfamiliar with the times and laws, I can easily explain more if needed. But I wonder if I am just missing where this was discussed already as a possible addition? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuvia613 ( talk • contribs) 22:38, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Searching David links directly to this page. Clearly, this is wrong and should go to a disambiguation page instead?-- Frank Fontaine ( talk) 12:57, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
In the opening introduction, a sentence reads
"The narrative depicts him throughout his life as conflicted between his ruthless ambition and lusts"
the characteristic "ruthless" is subjective and does not belong in this article. It certainly cannot be attributed to someone based on one event.
ReaverFlash ( talk) 15:27, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Actually, ruthlessness is a characteristic, not the definition of a specific action.
Wikipedia is not a place for personal opinion, while actions may be construed as being ruthless, labelling someone as having ruthless ambitions is not what encyclopedias does.
Your argument is "these actions are ruthless, therefore he has ruthless ambitions". Even you acknowledge that these actions can be viewed as strong rather than ruthless. But they don't belong in the article because they're personal opinions.
ReaverFlash ( talk) 16:07, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes, encyclopedias have opinions, but they must be presented in a neutral manner. Attaching a characteristic to someone is hardly neutral.
"regardless of effect" is also debatable. There are about a dozen ways you can descibe the events in David's life and a dozen characteristics can be arguably attached to him, but they are not because it is not neutral. ReaverFlash ( talk) 18:44, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Saying that other parts of the article aren't neutral does not mean that the article cannot be neutral. The Bible does mention that David is righteous, and it mentions that he has faults, but it certainly doesn't depict his ambitions as ruthless. Although other parts of the article are somewhat debatable, it does not mean that all other POV material should be left on the page. ReaverFlash ( talk) 13:37, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
15:10, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Actually that is only one definition of ruthless, and not even the main one. Wikipedia presents opinion, but they must be presented in a neutral way.
The Bible never mentions David as ruthless, not even with the definition you have stated. "Regardless of effect" is very much debatable. The onus is on those who want to include it to provide objective proof that this is what the Bible is depicting him as. Ruthless is not defined by mere actions, but is a characteristic. If the Bible mentions David as ruthless, it would be perfectly acceptable to include it. ReaverFlash ( talk) 15:39, 17 August 2009 (UTC)