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Archive 1 |
Some of the info in this article looks doubtful to me:
TeunSpaans 05:50, 27 August 2004 (UTC)
Don't ask me to fetch them for you, but yes, its well established. The formulae called for mixing boiled liquid with several other plants, and applying it to the skin.
Alternately, and, maybe something we don't need to bother mentioning, the myth of Witches "flying" on brooms actually comes from using brooms to apply Datura and other substances intravaginally. (and Anally.) Prometheuspan 01:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
The article refers to British soldiers being sent to stop the Whiskey Rebellion, but that rebellion happened in 1794, after the US was independant from Britain. Wrong nationality? Wrong rebellion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sethg ( talk • contribs) 19:21, 11 November 2004 (UTC)
I recently uploaded a bunch of photographs, among which one of a Datura, but I don't know which datura it is. I'd like to put it in the right location, so if anyone can identify it...? See User:DirkvdM/Photographs#Plants_and_Animals. DirkvdM 09:30, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Unless this allegation can be sourced it seems to be an urban legend and should be removed. Pacian 01:29, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Although im sure this carries no weight, i remember the severed penis story from when it first happened, opened my eyes to how scary this stuff is
Prometheuspan 01:01, 10 February 2006 (UTC) I think as a warning it is only half way there, and I'd rather see it deleted myself, its too off topic.
What we need is to point out that its potentially lethal if ingested, and that the effect is total suspension of reality for 3-12 days. Users should be in a safe place, and babysitters are an absolute necessity.
3-12 days?? Sorry, but I can tell you don't know that much about datura use. At the MOST the trip will last 2-3 days (with an dangerously high dose). A more common dose would generally give effects that would fade in 6-12 hours. Anecdotal of course, but these are facts I've learned over the years.-- 68.217.162.212 ( talk) 21:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
No sharp object should be accessible, no poisions should be accessible, dah dah dah...obvious stuff.
Kst447 ( talk) 08:34, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
somebody should mention somewhere in this article that ingesting any physical part of the actual plant can be lethal.
There are kids dying all the time from reading articles like this one which didn't mention this important problem.
Generally speaking, the only safe way to ingest Datura is as a Tea, and Witches made a lotion of it and put the lotion on their skin. Prometheuspan 00:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
http://www.abc.net.au/stateline/tas/content/2003/s944974.htm
Also, I think that we should actually find and post the Shamanic protocols, or kill the article, because in this case, the Shamanic Protocols do mean the difference between life and death, and the protocols are the means by which theoretical responsible use becomes a reality.
As there is no firm botanical evidence for this claim (i.e., Datura did not occur in Sinai at that time) - MPF 15:16, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I found this on the Wikipedia penis removal page:
Should this be mentioned in the page? I guess it's not uncommon to self-mutilate oneself when hallucinating, but the point is specific to datura.
Jumping cheese
Cont
@
ct
09:45, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Its not actually as common as you may think. I know several people who have tried datura (practicaly everyone in 8th Grade, at the time, including myself). The delirium was confusing and blurry, but I have never heard of anyone doing something as insane as severing their genitals, nor any kind of self-mutilation. I can only speak of my own expierience, but never heard of anything like what you mentioned. And about the overdose thing, if you research datura before you run and grab the seeds, it is very easy to avoid an overdose. The problem with the overdoses are people that don't no what their doing. Not at all trying to advocate datura use, just wanted to clear a few things up.-- 68.217.162.212 ( talk) 20:55, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Datura is actually from sanskrit not hindi. It has been used in many religious rituals among some of the more esoteric hindu sects and still does in some. Perhaps this could be mentioned in the page?
In the eastern and north eastern part of India Datura or "Dhutra" as it is commonly known is a prime offering to Lord Siva on the night of Maha Sivaratri.
The first paragraph of this section badly needs some inline references. It isn't necessarily inaccurate, just totally unsourced. (See the official-sounding explanation of the anecdotally reported blindness associated with ingestion. No offense intended, but where the hell did THAT come from?) Lou Sander ( talk) 14:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
The first paragraph says the genus is probably native only to the Americas and that it was known in India millennia ago. Yeah? — Tamfang ( talk) 22:45, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I found a reference on the origins and distribution. It excluded the Asian, etc. stuff, so I deleted that stuff and included the citation. Apparently the editors who put it in had confused Datura with the similar genus Brugmansia. Lou Sander ( talk) 14:18, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Per the tags, sections like this should be avoided, this one is basically unsourced, and may contain spam and poor or irrelevant examples. It seems to be a catchbasin for any mention of the word "datura" anywhere in the world of culture.
I propose to remove this section entirely. I'll wait a while for comments, then I'll delete it. Lou Sander ( talk) 14:25, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Changed stalk description from "woody-stalked" to "herbaceous" (herbaceous-stalked does anyone think?) per Preissel. Reference for the paragraph stays the same (pp. 10, 11; first English edition).
Changed "closely allied Brugmansiae" to "closely allied Brugmansia" (spelling). Tom Hulse ( talk) 07:59, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Regarding Ringbang's [ recent edit], where most all of Datura's common names were moved to Datura stramonium, I believe we might have gone a little too far. I agree with, for instance, moving "Jimson weed" there, because it is particular to D. stramonium and not Datura in general, but perhaps not most of the others. "Thorn apple" for instance is used by the leading modern reference, Dr. Preissel, in Brugmansia and Datura: Angel's Trumpets and Thorn Apples. to represent all Daturas (8 of the 9 Datura species have thorns on their fruit). "Devil's trumpet" is used typically as a counter point to, and on an equal level as Brugmansia's general name of "Angel's trumpet". The common saying, used help new people remember the difference, is that Angel trumpet's flowers hang down as angels look down from heaven, and Devil's trumpet flowers face up as the devil would look up from below. I would appreciate any references that isolate these names to specifically D. stramonium only. Thanks! Tom Hulse ( talk) 20:46, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
NOTE: This section did not go into Archive 1 (for all pre-2014 material). Though it was started in 2010, it contains some comments from late in 2014. Lou Sander ( talk) 03:10, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
I'd like to solicit comments regarding a possible revert of a recent edit by User:Buntfalke, including the following line 67: "A number of usage and toxicity reports covering Datura and preperations of it can be found at Erowid." The main purpose of that site is instructional for illegal drug use, inclulding headings under Daturetea that read "Glowing Experiences", and subheadings under that such as "My Best Experience EVER!!!!!!". The real practical purpose of this sentence is to aid drug users in finding information to help them in illegal activity ("preperations"[sic]), and I believe it is inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Tom Hulse ( talk) 09:13, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
I have already pointed out how the source is flawed in that instance. It takes advantage of the authority of Erowid by saying '“Train Wreck” severely negative experience reports' ('Train Wrecks and Trip disasters' is a trip category on that site, and 'experience report' is also Erowid-speak). Immediately after: 'The overwhelming majority of those who describe the use of Datura (and to a lesser extent, Belladonna, Brugmansia and Brunfelsia) find their experiences extremely mentally and physically unpleasant and not infrequently physically dangerous.' This implies that Erowid supports such a conclusion - but it directly contradicts this. It's immediately obvious. The 'train wrecks' and the 'difficult experiences' sections together aren't any kind of 'overwhelming majority'. In this research field, Erowid is an important source, respected for its review articles, newsletter, its careful selection procedures for submissions, but most sought after for its broad and deep collection of trip reports. I don't see why Erowid should be dismissed as unreliable just because it's a website. The Internet allows for broad and rapid collection of evidence, and cooperation between a wide selection of contributors, all of it helping to reduce sources of bias. Being widely cited, or with a hard cover (!), doesn't mean the book's right about everything. It doesn't prevent casual POV, especially if it (the POV) agrees with received 'wisdom' of a lot of the population. Straight from the title (Pharmacology and Abuse of Cocaine, Amphetamines, Ecstasy and Related Designer Drugs), it implies that all use of these drugs is 'abuse' (even though the rest of the book is more sophisticated). I never used the word 'authoritative'. I said Erowid was highly detailed, more verifiable, and a better source (certainly in this instance). Its Datura page (that the book alludes to) - that is an actual evidence base that can be examined. An outrageously sweeping generalization like 'The overwhelming majority ... find their experiences extremely mentally and physically unpleasant and not infrequently physically dangerous' without a single number to back it up is an opinion I replaced instead of adding because of the strident, startling opinion that looks very much POV, and out-of-pace on Wikipedia. I suppose both the original quote and my piece could be side-by-side, even though one shows a contradiction in the other! Nitrobutane ( talk) 01:03, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
"Although still abused occasionally by adventuresome young people, the anticholinergic side effects of jimsonweed are so unpleasant that it rarely becomes a long-term problem"
- - Drugs and Society, G. Hanson, 2006
"...experiences often have an ominous tone and lack LSD qualities such as striking down barriers between senses (hearing colors, seeing sounds)."
- - The Encyclopedia of Addictive Drugs, R. Miller, 2002
"The majority of users report their experiences as unpleasant and often terrifying. Overall, it is in very low demand as a recreational drug, due to the unpleasant high."
- - Chemicals Used for Illegal Purposes, R. Turkington, 2009
"If you survive a sampling, you may report unpleasant hallucinations."
- - How to die in the outdoors, B. Tilton, 1997
"...hallucinations that are usually visual and often terrifying - for example, monsters, devils,..."
- - Neurological Aspects of Substance Abuse, C. Brust, 2004
"Going into other worlds is fascinating, but the worlds that datura takes people to can be frightening"
- -From Chocolate to Morphine: Everything You Need to Know About Mind-Altering Drugs, Rosen & Weil, 1983
The point I make about WP:MEDRES is: it's being overextended here. That's why I invoke WP:IGNORE. I am citing Erowid to desribe Datura's mental (not physical effects), so WP:MEDRES has nothing to do ith t. And since Erowid has a broad database of trip reports on substances' mental effects, you might want to think about how ridiculous it would be to exclude it in a piece on the mental effects of Datura! As for Freye's claim, it's so overladen wih superlatives that any other of your quotes would be a toning down, including Turkington's. With the caveat of course, that he's looking at Datura in an implicitly judgemental way, as a 'chemical' used for 'illegal purposes' (even though it's a herb, and not even illegal). Look at the titles. Freye sees all the substances in the book as nothing but 'abuse'. The same goes for Brust. Miller's quote implies Datura's an 'addictive drug' (it isn't). Tilton approaches it specifically as a 'way to die'. A prejudiced researcher is liable to simply discover mainly the experiences of people who ended up in hospital, simply because there's official records that it happened - and make conlcusions based only on that. Last (or first), is the bias of the one who 'fairly sampled' these specific quotes and put them together. The one who said: The main purpose of that site is instructional for illegal drug use, inclulding headings under Daturetea that read "Glowing Experiences", and subheadings under that such as "My Best Experience EVER!!!!!!"' The one who judged Erowid because it didn't purposely exclude positive trip reports. Because it didn't mutilate its own evidence base and deceive its own users - all to keep to the line that 'drugs are bad'. Because it dared to show that Datura can be a glowing, or even a Best Ever experience. Your own bias may be the last thing you'd think of, but I hope it's still on the list!
It is great to explain it with sublety, in greater detail. A spectrum of sources is far better than just one. I included all those quotes in Effects of ingestion because specific uses link back to specific effects. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.211.111.46 ( talk) 18:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
IMHO this material, if it is included at all, should appear in a section of its own. Please, if you want to include this material, discuss it here and get some consensus before you add it. Lou Sander ( talk) 22:31, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Lou, I referred specifically to describing Datura's hallucinogenic properties. And all Freye said to that end is a single dismissive phrase, not bothering to give detail or insight; by the standards of WikiProject Psychedelics articles it is indeed a travesty. I didn't mean Freye's entire quote is wrong. However, it provides no info about the positive medicinal or psychedelic Effects, which is why this section is in need of expansion. If a separate section were created, not all the material should go there, but some remain to illustrate certain effects.
Tom, I never presented false information - everything I wrote has a source to back it up. Reread what I wrote, instead of 'how dare you'. And I never claimed 'generally pleasant trips', and did include a warning. There is also plenty of info about Datura's dangers in the rest of the article. And I don't 'only accept' evidence from Erowid either - my contribution has many sources. What I want to succeed in is providing the whole range of information about Datura's effects, and uses.
Trippers hurt themselves on Datura less than people imagine. Whenever Teenager High On Jimsonweed Dies In Accident, it will make the headlines, but Teenager Wandered Around In Confused Delirium, Says: Whoa, Dude What Just Happened? - not so much. And same for Teenager Emerges From Angels' Trumpets Trip,Says: I'd Do It Again. Although it is true that some poisonings are fatal, I don't see where you'd get the idea that many end up vegetative.
As for bias, I am talking about your implication that Erowid is bad because they show the experience reports from their users without rejecting the positive ones. I somehow don't think 'a majority of reliable sources' would agree with such an outrageous twisting of the evidence base. This is the third time I'm saying it now...
Yes, there are subtle distinctions in the effects of a substance, and it'd be wrong to artificially simplify them to just 'an effect' from putting 'a drug' into a 'body'. Although the greater distinction is in how medical sources present physical and psychedelic effects. You say 'Psychedelic effects are actually well-covered by MEDRS.' - but not by the actual field of medical research, which sometimes tries to deny the psychedelic field altogether. Look at the disdain shown by works which casually prejudice the reader by dropping words like 'illegal' in titles. 'Illegal'='must be bad', even though it gives no scientific, medical or psychedelic information at all. With words like 'abuse' or 'misuse', many reports are implying that all substance use is bad, pretending there's no possibility of subtle, positive or insightful effects. Some titles of this sort may not even reflect any prejudice inside the work, and be for appearance's sake - but what appearance? The assumption 'all drugs are bad', God forbid the researcher appear to be suggesting otherwise!
I am defending Erowid on principle, because of its great educational value. It has collected a range of detailed information about a very wide spectrum of mind-altering substances. Greater range and depth than any other single source anywhere. But of course I'm 'obviously biasedly connected' to it, Can you imagine I'm standing up to the slander not for some specific interest you assume I'm connected to, but in the interests of veracity?
Do you know that Erowid Center is a registered 501(c)(3) educational nonprofit? Not only the website, but they do work for other harm reduction, health, and educational organizations, provide them research and data. This data is from literature, experts in pharmacy and related fields, and the substance experiences of the public - which they screen with a careful process before presenting it on the website. But of course, it's 'veeeeery unreliable pure rubbish', not a 'real source' anyone who disagrees is neither 'unbiased or neutral' and must have a 'biased' connection to it. (I'm actually laughing as I write this) All because it disagrees with you, who seems not to know much about the nature of Erowid, or what it does.
If you don't believe what I say, go to Erowid and look over its page for any random substance (like maybe Datura itself, or LSD, or cannabis, or banana skins, or red mercury), and see for yourself. Not just the Experiences page, but the broader Substance page that includes it. (unless you think you know everything about Erowid already).
Lastly, consider:
Erowid Center's mission is to provide and facilitate access to objective, accurate, and non-judgmental information about psychoactive plants, chemicals, technologies, and related issues. [1] According to one study, "Erowid is a trusted resource for drug information -- both positive and negative". [2] and Erowid has been extensively cited worldwide by book authors, [3] [4] scientific and medical journals, [5] [6] newspapers, [7] [8] magazines, [9] [10] film makers, [11] radio and TV shows, [12] [13] [14] PhD students, [15] [16] web sites, [17] and other media producers.
Wikipedia, on Erowid
It appears I'm not the only one who thinks so
Nitrobutane, aka
85.211.111.46 (
talk)
02:52, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
I propose that the Effects section be expanded to show that the effects Freye listed (and some he didn't) as adverse can also be medicinal, and a short mention of the healing use of these effects. Same for the mental effects. The rest of the religious etc uses can be in their own section
85.211.111.46 (
talk)
08:43, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
According to one study, "Erowid is a trusted resource for drug information -- both positive and negative". [1] and Erowid has been extensively cited worldwide by book authors, [2] [3] scientific and medical journals, [4] [5] newspapers, [6] [7] magazines, [8] [9] film makers, [10] radio and TV shows, [11] [12] [13] PhD students, [14] [15] web sites, [16] and other media producers.
Wikipedia, on Erowid
here are two new sections to replace Effects of Ingestion:
Immediate effects
Datura is used for both spiritual and medicinal purposes with great care. It is a very powerful herb, due to the potent combination of mainly anticholinergic substances it contains. At low dosages its most prominent effects are antidiarrhoeal, anaesthetic (used by the Zuni in medical procedures) and anti-inflammatory (used by the Aztec to reduce swelling and relieve rheumatism). [1] [2] [3] At higher dosages there is a degree of hyperthermia, tachycardia, and mydriasis (dilated pupils). The resultant photophobia can last several days. Outwardly, there is often bizarre, and possibly violent behavior. Pronounced amnesia is another commonly reported effect. [4] Urine secretion and intestinal motility decrease, slowing excretion of the active substances and their metabolites, and prolonging the effect.
Pharmacology and Abuse of Cocaine, Amphetamines, Ecstasy and Related Designer Drugs asserts: "No other substance has received as many '“Train Wreck” severely negative experience reports' as has Datura. The overwhelming majority of those who describe their use of Datura find their experiences extremely unpleasant both mentally and often physically dangerous..
[4]" However, with a body of experience indigenous groups,Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page). It is the large doses of Datura that cause the loss-of-awareness anticholinergic delirium and violent behaviour.
[5] At moderate doses Datura may cause sleepiness instead.
[6] Many experience reports can be found in Erowid's "Datura Vault".
Spiritual and medicinal uses
The strongly mind-altering and bioactive Datura is used in ritual context as a sacred hallucinogen, and as medicine by many indigenous peoples in Europe, Asia, Africa, and the Americas, including the Aztec and Zuni (who both revere it as one of the Plants of The Gods), the Kunama (who use it in dance rituals) the Navajo and the Yokut. [7] (at least twelve different tribes in California alone) [8] Datura is used for both spiritual and medicinal purposes with great care. It is a very powerful herb, due to the potent combination of mainly anticholinergic substances it contains. At low dosages the most prominent are its antidiarrhoeal, anaesthetic and anti-inflammatory effects. [9] [10]
A 2013 review of the pharmacology and toxicology of Datura notes other medicinal effects, including:
Atropine and scopolamine block the muscarinic (particularly the M2) receptors on airway smooth muscle and submucosal gland cells, which dilates bronchial smooth muscle and eases asthmatic attacks. Charpin et alCite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page). D. stramonium was very effective as vibriocidal against various strains of Vibreo cholera and Vibreo parahaemolyticus. The minimum inhibitory concentration (MIC) value of acetone extracts of D. stramonium was in the range of 2.5 to 15 mg/mL serving as broad-spectrum vibriocidal agents.
[11]
Acetone extracts of D. stramonium have antifungal activity against several fungi including Penicillium expansum, Aspergillus niger, Aspergillus parasiticus, Colletotrichum gloeosporioides, Fusarium oxysporum, Trichoderma harzianum, Phytophthora nicotiana, Pythium ultimum and Rhizoctonia solani. The MIC of the extracts ranges from 1.25 to 2.5 mg/mL. [12]
Ethanolic extract of D. stramonium leaf was active against carrageenan-induced paw edema in rats.Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page). 39.43% inhibition of the edema was observed after 3 h of oral administration of 200 mg/kg extracts. Maximum activity was observed when the extract was administered in doses of 3-hour intervals. Since this edema involves the release of histamine and serotonin in the first phase, the effect of the extracts could be partly due to inhibition of mast cell mediator release.
[13]
D. stramonium was reported to have an effect against carcinoma of the nasopharynx at a therapeutic dose of 0.05 to 0.1 g. However, precaution should be taken since adverse anticholinergic effects may occur.
[14]Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page).
Datura was used for purposes such as attaining visions, spiritual healing, contact with one's Guiding Spirit, divination, and for pleasure. Aztec also used Datura for its anti-inflammatory effects, particularly to reduce swelling and relieve rheumatism. The Yaqui used it as anaesthetic during childbirth. Zuni also used it as anaesthetic in medical procedures.
[15] At moderate doses Datura may be aphrodisiac (however sleepiness may result instead).
[16] Datura was also used medically in India and China. Buddhism valued Datura highly, and it had a divine significance in Ancient Greek temples.
[17]
The Navajo and especially the Havasupai also used Datura recreationally. [18]
At moderate doses Datura may be aphrodisiac (however sleepiness may result instead). [19] Datura is a complex and powerful psychedelic. Getting the dose right is critical. If an overdose occurs, the Datura experience may be overly powerful and frightening. The anticholinergic effects may persist for many days or weeks, with tight throat and difficuty swallowing, blurred vision, hallucinations akin to acid flashbacks and difficulty concentrating. Some have a mystical experience described in terms of a 'rebirth'. [20] [21] Many experience reports can be found in Erowid's ""Datura Vault"". 85.211.99.81 ( talk) 15:13, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
References
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Some of the info in this article looks doubtful to me:
TeunSpaans 05:50, 27 August 2004 (UTC)
Don't ask me to fetch them for you, but yes, its well established. The formulae called for mixing boiled liquid with several other plants, and applying it to the skin.
Alternately, and, maybe something we don't need to bother mentioning, the myth of Witches "flying" on brooms actually comes from using brooms to apply Datura and other substances intravaginally. (and Anally.) Prometheuspan 01:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
The article refers to British soldiers being sent to stop the Whiskey Rebellion, but that rebellion happened in 1794, after the US was independant from Britain. Wrong nationality? Wrong rebellion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sethg ( talk • contribs) 19:21, 11 November 2004 (UTC)
I recently uploaded a bunch of photographs, among which one of a Datura, but I don't know which datura it is. I'd like to put it in the right location, so if anyone can identify it...? See User:DirkvdM/Photographs#Plants_and_Animals. DirkvdM 09:30, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Unless this allegation can be sourced it seems to be an urban legend and should be removed. Pacian 01:29, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Although im sure this carries no weight, i remember the severed penis story from when it first happened, opened my eyes to how scary this stuff is
Prometheuspan 01:01, 10 February 2006 (UTC) I think as a warning it is only half way there, and I'd rather see it deleted myself, its too off topic.
What we need is to point out that its potentially lethal if ingested, and that the effect is total suspension of reality for 3-12 days. Users should be in a safe place, and babysitters are an absolute necessity.
3-12 days?? Sorry, but I can tell you don't know that much about datura use. At the MOST the trip will last 2-3 days (with an dangerously high dose). A more common dose would generally give effects that would fade in 6-12 hours. Anecdotal of course, but these are facts I've learned over the years.-- 68.217.162.212 ( talk) 21:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
No sharp object should be accessible, no poisions should be accessible, dah dah dah...obvious stuff.
Kst447 ( talk) 08:34, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
somebody should mention somewhere in this article that ingesting any physical part of the actual plant can be lethal.
There are kids dying all the time from reading articles like this one which didn't mention this important problem.
Generally speaking, the only safe way to ingest Datura is as a Tea, and Witches made a lotion of it and put the lotion on their skin. Prometheuspan 00:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
http://www.abc.net.au/stateline/tas/content/2003/s944974.htm
Also, I think that we should actually find and post the Shamanic protocols, or kill the article, because in this case, the Shamanic Protocols do mean the difference between life and death, and the protocols are the means by which theoretical responsible use becomes a reality.
As there is no firm botanical evidence for this claim (i.e., Datura did not occur in Sinai at that time) - MPF 15:16, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I found this on the Wikipedia penis removal page:
Should this be mentioned in the page? I guess it's not uncommon to self-mutilate oneself when hallucinating, but the point is specific to datura.
Jumping cheese
Cont
@
ct
09:45, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Its not actually as common as you may think. I know several people who have tried datura (practicaly everyone in 8th Grade, at the time, including myself). The delirium was confusing and blurry, but I have never heard of anyone doing something as insane as severing their genitals, nor any kind of self-mutilation. I can only speak of my own expierience, but never heard of anything like what you mentioned. And about the overdose thing, if you research datura before you run and grab the seeds, it is very easy to avoid an overdose. The problem with the overdoses are people that don't no what their doing. Not at all trying to advocate datura use, just wanted to clear a few things up.-- 68.217.162.212 ( talk) 20:55, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Datura is actually from sanskrit not hindi. It has been used in many religious rituals among some of the more esoteric hindu sects and still does in some. Perhaps this could be mentioned in the page?
In the eastern and north eastern part of India Datura or "Dhutra" as it is commonly known is a prime offering to Lord Siva on the night of Maha Sivaratri.
The first paragraph of this section badly needs some inline references. It isn't necessarily inaccurate, just totally unsourced. (See the official-sounding explanation of the anecdotally reported blindness associated with ingestion. No offense intended, but where the hell did THAT come from?) Lou Sander ( talk) 14:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
The first paragraph says the genus is probably native only to the Americas and that it was known in India millennia ago. Yeah? — Tamfang ( talk) 22:45, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I found a reference on the origins and distribution. It excluded the Asian, etc. stuff, so I deleted that stuff and included the citation. Apparently the editors who put it in had confused Datura with the similar genus Brugmansia. Lou Sander ( talk) 14:18, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Per the tags, sections like this should be avoided, this one is basically unsourced, and may contain spam and poor or irrelevant examples. It seems to be a catchbasin for any mention of the word "datura" anywhere in the world of culture.
I propose to remove this section entirely. I'll wait a while for comments, then I'll delete it. Lou Sander ( talk) 14:25, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Changed stalk description from "woody-stalked" to "herbaceous" (herbaceous-stalked does anyone think?) per Preissel. Reference for the paragraph stays the same (pp. 10, 11; first English edition).
Changed "closely allied Brugmansiae" to "closely allied Brugmansia" (spelling). Tom Hulse ( talk) 07:59, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Regarding Ringbang's [ recent edit], where most all of Datura's common names were moved to Datura stramonium, I believe we might have gone a little too far. I agree with, for instance, moving "Jimson weed" there, because it is particular to D. stramonium and not Datura in general, but perhaps not most of the others. "Thorn apple" for instance is used by the leading modern reference, Dr. Preissel, in Brugmansia and Datura: Angel's Trumpets and Thorn Apples. to represent all Daturas (8 of the 9 Datura species have thorns on their fruit). "Devil's trumpet" is used typically as a counter point to, and on an equal level as Brugmansia's general name of "Angel's trumpet". The common saying, used help new people remember the difference, is that Angel trumpet's flowers hang down as angels look down from heaven, and Devil's trumpet flowers face up as the devil would look up from below. I would appreciate any references that isolate these names to specifically D. stramonium only. Thanks! Tom Hulse ( talk) 20:46, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
NOTE: This section did not go into Archive 1 (for all pre-2014 material). Though it was started in 2010, it contains some comments from late in 2014. Lou Sander ( talk) 03:10, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
I'd like to solicit comments regarding a possible revert of a recent edit by User:Buntfalke, including the following line 67: "A number of usage and toxicity reports covering Datura and preperations of it can be found at Erowid." The main purpose of that site is instructional for illegal drug use, inclulding headings under Daturetea that read "Glowing Experiences", and subheadings under that such as "My Best Experience EVER!!!!!!". The real practical purpose of this sentence is to aid drug users in finding information to help them in illegal activity ("preperations"[sic]), and I believe it is inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Tom Hulse ( talk) 09:13, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
I have already pointed out how the source is flawed in that instance. It takes advantage of the authority of Erowid by saying '“Train Wreck” severely negative experience reports' ('Train Wrecks and Trip disasters' is a trip category on that site, and 'experience report' is also Erowid-speak). Immediately after: 'The overwhelming majority of those who describe the use of Datura (and to a lesser extent, Belladonna, Brugmansia and Brunfelsia) find their experiences extremely mentally and physically unpleasant and not infrequently physically dangerous.' This implies that Erowid supports such a conclusion - but it directly contradicts this. It's immediately obvious. The 'train wrecks' and the 'difficult experiences' sections together aren't any kind of 'overwhelming majority'. In this research field, Erowid is an important source, respected for its review articles, newsletter, its careful selection procedures for submissions, but most sought after for its broad and deep collection of trip reports. I don't see why Erowid should be dismissed as unreliable just because it's a website. The Internet allows for broad and rapid collection of evidence, and cooperation between a wide selection of contributors, all of it helping to reduce sources of bias. Being widely cited, or with a hard cover (!), doesn't mean the book's right about everything. It doesn't prevent casual POV, especially if it (the POV) agrees with received 'wisdom' of a lot of the population. Straight from the title (Pharmacology and Abuse of Cocaine, Amphetamines, Ecstasy and Related Designer Drugs), it implies that all use of these drugs is 'abuse' (even though the rest of the book is more sophisticated). I never used the word 'authoritative'. I said Erowid was highly detailed, more verifiable, and a better source (certainly in this instance). Its Datura page (that the book alludes to) - that is an actual evidence base that can be examined. An outrageously sweeping generalization like 'The overwhelming majority ... find their experiences extremely mentally and physically unpleasant and not infrequently physically dangerous' without a single number to back it up is an opinion I replaced instead of adding because of the strident, startling opinion that looks very much POV, and out-of-pace on Wikipedia. I suppose both the original quote and my piece could be side-by-side, even though one shows a contradiction in the other! Nitrobutane ( talk) 01:03, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
"Although still abused occasionally by adventuresome young people, the anticholinergic side effects of jimsonweed are so unpleasant that it rarely becomes a long-term problem"
- - Drugs and Society, G. Hanson, 2006
"...experiences often have an ominous tone and lack LSD qualities such as striking down barriers between senses (hearing colors, seeing sounds)."
- - The Encyclopedia of Addictive Drugs, R. Miller, 2002
"The majority of users report their experiences as unpleasant and often terrifying. Overall, it is in very low demand as a recreational drug, due to the unpleasant high."
- - Chemicals Used for Illegal Purposes, R. Turkington, 2009
"If you survive a sampling, you may report unpleasant hallucinations."
- - How to die in the outdoors, B. Tilton, 1997
"...hallucinations that are usually visual and often terrifying - for example, monsters, devils,..."
- - Neurological Aspects of Substance Abuse, C. Brust, 2004
"Going into other worlds is fascinating, but the worlds that datura takes people to can be frightening"
- -From Chocolate to Morphine: Everything You Need to Know About Mind-Altering Drugs, Rosen & Weil, 1983
The point I make about WP:MEDRES is: it's being overextended here. That's why I invoke WP:IGNORE. I am citing Erowid to desribe Datura's mental (not physical effects), so WP:MEDRES has nothing to do ith t. And since Erowid has a broad database of trip reports on substances' mental effects, you might want to think about how ridiculous it would be to exclude it in a piece on the mental effects of Datura! As for Freye's claim, it's so overladen wih superlatives that any other of your quotes would be a toning down, including Turkington's. With the caveat of course, that he's looking at Datura in an implicitly judgemental way, as a 'chemical' used for 'illegal purposes' (even though it's a herb, and not even illegal). Look at the titles. Freye sees all the substances in the book as nothing but 'abuse'. The same goes for Brust. Miller's quote implies Datura's an 'addictive drug' (it isn't). Tilton approaches it specifically as a 'way to die'. A prejudiced researcher is liable to simply discover mainly the experiences of people who ended up in hospital, simply because there's official records that it happened - and make conlcusions based only on that. Last (or first), is the bias of the one who 'fairly sampled' these specific quotes and put them together. The one who said: The main purpose of that site is instructional for illegal drug use, inclulding headings under Daturetea that read "Glowing Experiences", and subheadings under that such as "My Best Experience EVER!!!!!!"' The one who judged Erowid because it didn't purposely exclude positive trip reports. Because it didn't mutilate its own evidence base and deceive its own users - all to keep to the line that 'drugs are bad'. Because it dared to show that Datura can be a glowing, or even a Best Ever experience. Your own bias may be the last thing you'd think of, but I hope it's still on the list!
It is great to explain it with sublety, in greater detail. A spectrum of sources is far better than just one. I included all those quotes in Effects of ingestion because specific uses link back to specific effects. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.211.111.46 ( talk) 18:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
IMHO this material, if it is included at all, should appear in a section of its own. Please, if you want to include this material, discuss it here and get some consensus before you add it. Lou Sander ( talk) 22:31, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Lou, I referred specifically to describing Datura's hallucinogenic properties. And all Freye said to that end is a single dismissive phrase, not bothering to give detail or insight; by the standards of WikiProject Psychedelics articles it is indeed a travesty. I didn't mean Freye's entire quote is wrong. However, it provides no info about the positive medicinal or psychedelic Effects, which is why this section is in need of expansion. If a separate section were created, not all the material should go there, but some remain to illustrate certain effects.
Tom, I never presented false information - everything I wrote has a source to back it up. Reread what I wrote, instead of 'how dare you'. And I never claimed 'generally pleasant trips', and did include a warning. There is also plenty of info about Datura's dangers in the rest of the article. And I don't 'only accept' evidence from Erowid either - my contribution has many sources. What I want to succeed in is providing the whole range of information about Datura's effects, and uses.
Trippers hurt themselves on Datura less than people imagine. Whenever Teenager High On Jimsonweed Dies In Accident, it will make the headlines, but Teenager Wandered Around In Confused Delirium, Says: Whoa, Dude What Just Happened? - not so much. And same for Teenager Emerges From Angels' Trumpets Trip,Says: I'd Do It Again. Although it is true that some poisonings are fatal, I don't see where you'd get the idea that many end up vegetative.
As for bias, I am talking about your implication that Erowid is bad because they show the experience reports from their users without rejecting the positive ones. I somehow don't think 'a majority of reliable sources' would agree with such an outrageous twisting of the evidence base. This is the third time I'm saying it now...
Yes, there are subtle distinctions in the effects of a substance, and it'd be wrong to artificially simplify them to just 'an effect' from putting 'a drug' into a 'body'. Although the greater distinction is in how medical sources present physical and psychedelic effects. You say 'Psychedelic effects are actually well-covered by MEDRS.' - but not by the actual field of medical research, which sometimes tries to deny the psychedelic field altogether. Look at the disdain shown by works which casually prejudice the reader by dropping words like 'illegal' in titles. 'Illegal'='must be bad', even though it gives no scientific, medical or psychedelic information at all. With words like 'abuse' or 'misuse', many reports are implying that all substance use is bad, pretending there's no possibility of subtle, positive or insightful effects. Some titles of this sort may not even reflect any prejudice inside the work, and be for appearance's sake - but what appearance? The assumption 'all drugs are bad', God forbid the researcher appear to be suggesting otherwise!
I am defending Erowid on principle, because of its great educational value. It has collected a range of detailed information about a very wide spectrum of mind-altering substances. Greater range and depth than any other single source anywhere. But of course I'm 'obviously biasedly connected' to it, Can you imagine I'm standing up to the slander not for some specific interest you assume I'm connected to, but in the interests of veracity?
Do you know that Erowid Center is a registered 501(c)(3) educational nonprofit? Not only the website, but they do work for other harm reduction, health, and educational organizations, provide them research and data. This data is from literature, experts in pharmacy and related fields, and the substance experiences of the public - which they screen with a careful process before presenting it on the website. But of course, it's 'veeeeery unreliable pure rubbish', not a 'real source' anyone who disagrees is neither 'unbiased or neutral' and must have a 'biased' connection to it. (I'm actually laughing as I write this) All because it disagrees with you, who seems not to know much about the nature of Erowid, or what it does.
If you don't believe what I say, go to Erowid and look over its page for any random substance (like maybe Datura itself, or LSD, or cannabis, or banana skins, or red mercury), and see for yourself. Not just the Experiences page, but the broader Substance page that includes it. (unless you think you know everything about Erowid already).
Lastly, consider:
Erowid Center's mission is to provide and facilitate access to objective, accurate, and non-judgmental information about psychoactive plants, chemicals, technologies, and related issues. [1] According to one study, "Erowid is a trusted resource for drug information -- both positive and negative". [2] and Erowid has been extensively cited worldwide by book authors, [3] [4] scientific and medical journals, [5] [6] newspapers, [7] [8] magazines, [9] [10] film makers, [11] radio and TV shows, [12] [13] [14] PhD students, [15] [16] web sites, [17] and other media producers.
Wikipedia, on Erowid
It appears I'm not the only one who thinks so
Nitrobutane, aka
85.211.111.46 (
talk)
02:52, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
I propose that the Effects section be expanded to show that the effects Freye listed (and some he didn't) as adverse can also be medicinal, and a short mention of the healing use of these effects. Same for the mental effects. The rest of the religious etc uses can be in their own section
85.211.111.46 (
talk)
08:43, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
According to one study, "Erowid is a trusted resource for drug information -- both positive and negative". [1] and Erowid has been extensively cited worldwide by book authors, [2] [3] scientific and medical journals, [4] [5] newspapers, [6] [7] magazines, [8] [9] film makers, [10] radio and TV shows, [11] [12] [13] PhD students, [14] [15] web sites, [16] and other media producers.
Wikipedia, on Erowid
here are two new sections to replace Effects of Ingestion:
Immediate effects
Datura is used for both spiritual and medicinal purposes with great care. It is a very powerful herb, due to the potent combination of mainly anticholinergic substances it contains. At low dosages its most prominent effects are antidiarrhoeal, anaesthetic (used by the Zuni in medical procedures) and anti-inflammatory (used by the Aztec to reduce swelling and relieve rheumatism). [1] [2] [3] At higher dosages there is a degree of hyperthermia, tachycardia, and mydriasis (dilated pupils). The resultant photophobia can last several days. Outwardly, there is often bizarre, and possibly violent behavior. Pronounced amnesia is another commonly reported effect. [4] Urine secretion and intestinal motility decrease, slowing excretion of the active substances and their metabolites, and prolonging the effect.
Pharmacology and Abuse of Cocaine, Amphetamines, Ecstasy and Related Designer Drugs asserts: "No other substance has received as many '“Train Wreck” severely negative experience reports' as has Datura. The overwhelming majority of those who describe their use of Datura find their experiences extremely unpleasant both mentally and often physically dangerous..
[4]" However, with a body of experience indigenous groups,Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page). It is the large doses of Datura that cause the loss-of-awareness anticholinergic delirium and violent behaviour.
[5] At moderate doses Datura may cause sleepiness instead.
[6] Many experience reports can be found in Erowid's "Datura Vault".
Spiritual and medicinal uses
The strongly mind-altering and bioactive Datura is used in ritual context as a sacred hallucinogen, and as medicine by many indigenous peoples in Europe, Asia, Africa, and the Americas, including the Aztec and Zuni (who both revere it as one of the Plants of The Gods), the Kunama (who use it in dance rituals) the Navajo and the Yokut. [7] (at least twelve different tribes in California alone) [8] Datura is used for both spiritual and medicinal purposes with great care. It is a very powerful herb, due to the potent combination of mainly anticholinergic substances it contains. At low dosages the most prominent are its antidiarrhoeal, anaesthetic and anti-inflammatory effects. [9] [10]
A 2013 review of the pharmacology and toxicology of Datura notes other medicinal effects, including:
Atropine and scopolamine block the muscarinic (particularly the M2) receptors on airway smooth muscle and submucosal gland cells, which dilates bronchial smooth muscle and eases asthmatic attacks. Charpin et alCite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page). D. stramonium was very effective as vibriocidal against various strains of Vibreo cholera and Vibreo parahaemolyticus. The minimum inhibitory concentration (MIC) value of acetone extracts of D. stramonium was in the range of 2.5 to 15 mg/mL serving as broad-spectrum vibriocidal agents.
[11]
Acetone extracts of D. stramonium have antifungal activity against several fungi including Penicillium expansum, Aspergillus niger, Aspergillus parasiticus, Colletotrichum gloeosporioides, Fusarium oxysporum, Trichoderma harzianum, Phytophthora nicotiana, Pythium ultimum and Rhizoctonia solani. The MIC of the extracts ranges from 1.25 to 2.5 mg/mL. [12]
Ethanolic extract of D. stramonium leaf was active against carrageenan-induced paw edema in rats.Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page). 39.43% inhibition of the edema was observed after 3 h of oral administration of 200 mg/kg extracts. Maximum activity was observed when the extract was administered in doses of 3-hour intervals. Since this edema involves the release of histamine and serotonin in the first phase, the effect of the extracts could be partly due to inhibition of mast cell mediator release.
[13]
D. stramonium was reported to have an effect against carcinoma of the nasopharynx at a therapeutic dose of 0.05 to 0.1 g. However, precaution should be taken since adverse anticholinergic effects may occur.
[14]Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page).
Datura was used for purposes such as attaining visions, spiritual healing, contact with one's Guiding Spirit, divination, and for pleasure. Aztec also used Datura for its anti-inflammatory effects, particularly to reduce swelling and relieve rheumatism. The Yaqui used it as anaesthetic during childbirth. Zuni also used it as anaesthetic in medical procedures.
[15] At moderate doses Datura may be aphrodisiac (however sleepiness may result instead).
[16] Datura was also used medically in India and China. Buddhism valued Datura highly, and it had a divine significance in Ancient Greek temples.
[17]
The Navajo and especially the Havasupai also used Datura recreationally. [18]
At moderate doses Datura may be aphrodisiac (however sleepiness may result instead). [19] Datura is a complex and powerful psychedelic. Getting the dose right is critical. If an overdose occurs, the Datura experience may be overly powerful and frightening. The anticholinergic effects may persist for many days or weeks, with tight throat and difficuty swallowing, blurred vision, hallucinations akin to acid flashbacks and difficulty concentrating. Some have a mystical experience described in terms of a 'rebirth'. [20] [21] Many experience reports can be found in Erowid's ""Datura Vault"". 85.211.99.81 ( talk) 15:13, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
References
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