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Both Polybius & Livy have made a clear distinction of the Epirote Dexari/Dassaretae with the Illyrian tribes. Obviously this part [
[1]] has been copy-pasted from the Greek tribe. Certainly those are areas far from the Drin valley -lake Ohrid where the Illyrian Dassaretii lived.
Alexikoua (
talk) 17:49, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Especially in the case of Cabanes we have source misuse since the author states that the southern limit of the Illyrian tribes was the line stretching from Acroceraunians to Damastion.
Alexikoua (
talk) 17:51, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Since the Epirote coast was conceived as running more
from east to west than from south to north (324), Strabo's 'inland' area was (for us) north-east in relation to the line of the coast.39 It follows from Strabo's statement that the other tribes south of the line and extending down to the Ambraciote Gulf were Epirotic. Of these the most northerly near the coast were the 'Abantes' or 'Amantes' or 'Amantoi', since all these forms occur, and the farthest inland the Dassaretae, known to Hecataeus as the 'Dexaroi, a tribe of the Chaonians, next to the Encheleae' (FGrH i F Io3; and for the Encheleae see Strabo 326).40 The distinction between Illyrians and Dassaretii is seen also in Livy 42. 36. 9 (following Polybius), 'ad occupanda Dassaretiorum et Illyriorum castella' Alexikoua ( talk) 18:00, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
" according to Strabo , the Ceraunian Mountains should be regarded as the frontier between the two , as well as the line connecting them with the the mines of Damastium in the region of the Dassaretes near Lake Lychnidus , present - day Lake Ohrid" (Kos, 2005, citing Cabanes)". Well in case you don't falsify sourced material there is no problem. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:19, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
p. 46: "Among Illyrian tribes, apart from the Enchelidae we find the Taulantii, Bylliones, Parthini and Bryges; other Illyrian tribes lived north of the River Shkumbin, as indeed did some of the Taulantii, since they were the barbarians who threatened Epidamnus. There is also a rather mysterious tribe called Sesarethi; they too may give their name to Dassaretis, although in what may be another case of transhumance the Dassaretae in Roman times are found near Berat." p. 214: "Dassaretae, Illyrian tribe"And Cabanes' views are clear from the quotes I provided in other articles (he supports even the Dassaretan origin of Bardylis' dynasty). Also there is Fox (2011) who supports it. Why are you completely ignoring the entire bibliography of this article unconstructively removing sourced content? – Βατο ( talk) 19:36, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Winnifrith, Tom (1992). Perspectives On Albania. Springer. p. 35. ISBN 978-1-349-22050-2. They were neighbours of Greek-speaking tribes, grouped under the common name Chaones, of whom the most northerly, the Dassaretae, extended into the lakeland south of Lake Ochrid.
(Winnifrith does not accept that Dassaretae are exclusively Illyrian as you claim, in fact the Greek Dassaretae where located south of Ohrid)
according to Strabo , the Ceraunian Mountains should be regarded as the frontier between the two , as well as the line connecting them with the the mines of Damastium in the region of the Dassaretes near Lake Lychnidus , present - day Lake Ohrid/Ohrisko jezero, Strabo's outline of their territories has been generally accepted(23)(Cabanes, 1988, a, 20, ff.
. To sum up Winnifrith, Kos, Cabanes (if we believe Kos that cites him) reject your theory of an Illyrian megatribe (from Drin down to Atintania, almost from Kosovo to the Greek border) called Dassaretae/ii.
Alexikoua (
talk) 20:00, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Also considered diferrent from the Illyrians were the Dassaretes in Livy (Kos, 2006-7The list is endless. You also took a source that lists Dassaretii as 'Illyrian' in brackets inside a footnote. Stop POVFORKing Alexikoua ( talk) 20:59, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
The whole country as far as Corcyra” also comprised a few Epirote and Illyrian peoples and tribes, including the Taulantii, Parthini, Bylliones, and Amantes who were Illyrian, as well as the Dassaretes, Parauaei, and Chaones, who were Epirote (Kos, 2015, Corcyra_in_Strabos_Geography, citing Cabanes 1988, 46; 61-66).Alexikoua ( talk) 21:02, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Die Dassaretae waren einer der bedeutendsten illyrischen Stämme, dessen Siedelgebiet sich von der Stadt Lychnidos am gleichnamigen See bis zur Stadt Antipatria am unteren Apsos erstreckte.[The Dassaretae were one of the most important Illyrian tribes, whose settlement area stretched from the city of Lychnidos on the lake of the same name to the city of Antipatria on the lower Apsos.]-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 22:56, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Die Dassaretae waren einer der bedeutendsten illyrischen Stämme, dessen Siedelgebiet sich von der Stadt Lychnidos am gleichnamigen See bis zur Stadt Antipatria am unteren Apsos erstreckte.[The Dassaretae were one of the most important Illyrian tribes, whose settlement area stretched from the city of Lychnidos on the lake of the same name to the city of Antipatria on the lower Apsos.] @ Βατο: that there was a Desseratian Illyrian tribe is indisputable. If Alexikoua thinks this is a WP:POVFORK he can start an AfD. It will definitely WP:BOOMERANG IMO, but there's no point in arguing what is POVFORK here- there are appropriate community procedures for that to be discussed. So, Bato can go on with his day and write other articles or do whatever else and Alexikoua can also write other articles or prepare that AfD. Hic Rhodus, hic salta.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 10:20, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
I wonder why we should insist on her older publications while in more recent papers she an updated picture on the Dassaretae see: Marjeta Šašel Kos, Corcyra in Strabo’s Geography, 2015. Alexikoua ( talk) 01:26, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
I've removed Hatzopoulos (2020) since he doesn't claim something about them being Illyrian, however Hatzopoulos (1997) was placed instead. In fact Hatzopoulos rejects this specific claim in his 1997 work. Alexikoua ( talk) 15:44, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
In fact Hatzopoulos rejects this specific claim in his 1997 work.citation needed need quotation to verify His considerations are clear, no need for your WP:OR: Hatzopoulos 1993, p. 84: "...il serait, entre autres, susceptible de nous livrer des informations précieuses sur l'origine des populations (et de leur culture) de la zone intermédiaire et peut-être bilingue, entre la Chaonie indubitablement épirote et le pays des Dassarètes et des Parthins non moins indubitablemente illyrien." – Βατο ( talk) 17:39, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Your view | Hatzopoulos (1997) |
---|---|
Dassaretae an Illyrian tribe | Hatzopoulos 1997, p. 144:"The fragmentarity and corruption of the manuscript tradition of the available sources makes it impossible to clarify the relations between the Dassaretioi and the Encheleis. Study of the peronsal names of these regions might help to resolve the matter. Unfortunately, only those from the areas in the former Yugoslavia have been collected: and although these exhibit the expected intermingling of a clear majority of Greek, and indded Macedonian, names with few Illyrian ones, especially in the south, and also with a few other, probably Phyrgian names they do not permit the drawing of any clear conclusion." Alexikoua ( talk) 18:37, 21 February 2021 (UTC) |
Does it sound like they were Illyrian in Hatzopoulos 1997? You understand that this is enough for a POV tag since you placed this specific citation. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:37, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
"The phenomenon of the intermingling of Greek and non-Greek elements, with the latter on occasion not being Illyrian but belonging to earlier population strata, is even more pronounced in the regions assigned by Strabo to the Illyrian ethne of the Bryges, Encheleis and Dassaretioi."Anyway, I placed in the lede sentence Hatzopoulos 1993, p. 84: "...il serait, entre autres, susceptible de nous livrer des informations précieuses sur l'origine des populations (et de leur culture) de la zone intermédiaire et peut-être bilingue, entre la Chaonie indubitablement épirote et le pays des Dassarètes et des Parthins non moins indubitablemente illyrien." No need to continue this discussion as per WP:FORUM. – Βατο ( talk) 18:47, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
I removed the highgly criticised source recently added by Alexikoua: [3]. Hatzopoulos 1997 has discussed that author's views (many of which are WP:FRINGE), and his conclusions have already been included into the article. Also the relevant information about the Bryges has been already included, as discussed by Šašel Kos 2005, in a WP:DUE WEIGHT manner. – Βατο ( talk) 02:16, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Dassaretii article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Both Polybius & Livy have made a clear distinction of the Epirote Dexari/Dassaretae with the Illyrian tribes. Obviously this part [
[1]] has been copy-pasted from the Greek tribe. Certainly those are areas far from the Drin valley -lake Ohrid where the Illyrian Dassaretii lived.
Alexikoua (
talk) 17:49, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Especially in the case of Cabanes we have source misuse since the author states that the southern limit of the Illyrian tribes was the line stretching from Acroceraunians to Damastion.
Alexikoua (
talk) 17:51, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Since the Epirote coast was conceived as running more
from east to west than from south to north (324), Strabo's 'inland' area was (for us) north-east in relation to the line of the coast.39 It follows from Strabo's statement that the other tribes south of the line and extending down to the Ambraciote Gulf were Epirotic. Of these the most northerly near the coast were the 'Abantes' or 'Amantes' or 'Amantoi', since all these forms occur, and the farthest inland the Dassaretae, known to Hecataeus as the 'Dexaroi, a tribe of the Chaonians, next to the Encheleae' (FGrH i F Io3; and for the Encheleae see Strabo 326).40 The distinction between Illyrians and Dassaretii is seen also in Livy 42. 36. 9 (following Polybius), 'ad occupanda Dassaretiorum et Illyriorum castella' Alexikoua ( talk) 18:00, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
" according to Strabo , the Ceraunian Mountains should be regarded as the frontier between the two , as well as the line connecting them with the the mines of Damastium in the region of the Dassaretes near Lake Lychnidus , present - day Lake Ohrid" (Kos, 2005, citing Cabanes)". Well in case you don't falsify sourced material there is no problem. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:19, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
p. 46: "Among Illyrian tribes, apart from the Enchelidae we find the Taulantii, Bylliones, Parthini and Bryges; other Illyrian tribes lived north of the River Shkumbin, as indeed did some of the Taulantii, since they were the barbarians who threatened Epidamnus. There is also a rather mysterious tribe called Sesarethi; they too may give their name to Dassaretis, although in what may be another case of transhumance the Dassaretae in Roman times are found near Berat." p. 214: "Dassaretae, Illyrian tribe"And Cabanes' views are clear from the quotes I provided in other articles (he supports even the Dassaretan origin of Bardylis' dynasty). Also there is Fox (2011) who supports it. Why are you completely ignoring the entire bibliography of this article unconstructively removing sourced content? – Βατο ( talk) 19:36, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Winnifrith, Tom (1992). Perspectives On Albania. Springer. p. 35. ISBN 978-1-349-22050-2. They were neighbours of Greek-speaking tribes, grouped under the common name Chaones, of whom the most northerly, the Dassaretae, extended into the lakeland south of Lake Ochrid.
(Winnifrith does not accept that Dassaretae are exclusively Illyrian as you claim, in fact the Greek Dassaretae where located south of Ohrid)
according to Strabo , the Ceraunian Mountains should be regarded as the frontier between the two , as well as the line connecting them with the the mines of Damastium in the region of the Dassaretes near Lake Lychnidus , present - day Lake Ohrid/Ohrisko jezero, Strabo's outline of their territories has been generally accepted(23)(Cabanes, 1988, a, 20, ff.
. To sum up Winnifrith, Kos, Cabanes (if we believe Kos that cites him) reject your theory of an Illyrian megatribe (from Drin down to Atintania, almost from Kosovo to the Greek border) called Dassaretae/ii.
Alexikoua (
talk) 20:00, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Also considered diferrent from the Illyrians were the Dassaretes in Livy (Kos, 2006-7The list is endless. You also took a source that lists Dassaretii as 'Illyrian' in brackets inside a footnote. Stop POVFORKing Alexikoua ( talk) 20:59, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
The whole country as far as Corcyra” also comprised a few Epirote and Illyrian peoples and tribes, including the Taulantii, Parthini, Bylliones, and Amantes who were Illyrian, as well as the Dassaretes, Parauaei, and Chaones, who were Epirote (Kos, 2015, Corcyra_in_Strabos_Geography, citing Cabanes 1988, 46; 61-66).Alexikoua ( talk) 21:02, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Die Dassaretae waren einer der bedeutendsten illyrischen Stämme, dessen Siedelgebiet sich von der Stadt Lychnidos am gleichnamigen See bis zur Stadt Antipatria am unteren Apsos erstreckte.[The Dassaretae were one of the most important Illyrian tribes, whose settlement area stretched from the city of Lychnidos on the lake of the same name to the city of Antipatria on the lower Apsos.]-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 22:56, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Die Dassaretae waren einer der bedeutendsten illyrischen Stämme, dessen Siedelgebiet sich von der Stadt Lychnidos am gleichnamigen See bis zur Stadt Antipatria am unteren Apsos erstreckte.[The Dassaretae were one of the most important Illyrian tribes, whose settlement area stretched from the city of Lychnidos on the lake of the same name to the city of Antipatria on the lower Apsos.] @ Βατο: that there was a Desseratian Illyrian tribe is indisputable. If Alexikoua thinks this is a WP:POVFORK he can start an AfD. It will definitely WP:BOOMERANG IMO, but there's no point in arguing what is POVFORK here- there are appropriate community procedures for that to be discussed. So, Bato can go on with his day and write other articles or do whatever else and Alexikoua can also write other articles or prepare that AfD. Hic Rhodus, hic salta.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 10:20, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
I wonder why we should insist on her older publications while in more recent papers she an updated picture on the Dassaretae see: Marjeta Šašel Kos, Corcyra in Strabo’s Geography, 2015. Alexikoua ( talk) 01:26, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
I've removed Hatzopoulos (2020) since he doesn't claim something about them being Illyrian, however Hatzopoulos (1997) was placed instead. In fact Hatzopoulos rejects this specific claim in his 1997 work. Alexikoua ( talk) 15:44, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
In fact Hatzopoulos rejects this specific claim in his 1997 work.citation needed need quotation to verify His considerations are clear, no need for your WP:OR: Hatzopoulos 1993, p. 84: "...il serait, entre autres, susceptible de nous livrer des informations précieuses sur l'origine des populations (et de leur culture) de la zone intermédiaire et peut-être bilingue, entre la Chaonie indubitablement épirote et le pays des Dassarètes et des Parthins non moins indubitablemente illyrien." – Βατο ( talk) 17:39, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Your view | Hatzopoulos (1997) |
---|---|
Dassaretae an Illyrian tribe | Hatzopoulos 1997, p. 144:"The fragmentarity and corruption of the manuscript tradition of the available sources makes it impossible to clarify the relations between the Dassaretioi and the Encheleis. Study of the peronsal names of these regions might help to resolve the matter. Unfortunately, only those from the areas in the former Yugoslavia have been collected: and although these exhibit the expected intermingling of a clear majority of Greek, and indded Macedonian, names with few Illyrian ones, especially in the south, and also with a few other, probably Phyrgian names they do not permit the drawing of any clear conclusion." Alexikoua ( talk) 18:37, 21 February 2021 (UTC) |
Does it sound like they were Illyrian in Hatzopoulos 1997? You understand that this is enough for a POV tag since you placed this specific citation. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:37, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
"The phenomenon of the intermingling of Greek and non-Greek elements, with the latter on occasion not being Illyrian but belonging to earlier population strata, is even more pronounced in the regions assigned by Strabo to the Illyrian ethne of the Bryges, Encheleis and Dassaretioi."Anyway, I placed in the lede sentence Hatzopoulos 1993, p. 84: "...il serait, entre autres, susceptible de nous livrer des informations précieuses sur l'origine des populations (et de leur culture) de la zone intermédiaire et peut-être bilingue, entre la Chaonie indubitablement épirote et le pays des Dassarètes et des Parthins non moins indubitablemente illyrien." No need to continue this discussion as per WP:FORUM. – Βατο ( talk) 18:47, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
I removed the highgly criticised source recently added by Alexikoua: [3]. Hatzopoulos 1997 has discussed that author's views (many of which are WP:FRINGE), and his conclusions have already been included into the article. Also the relevant information about the Bryges has been already included, as discussed by Šašel Kos 2005, in a WP:DUE WEIGHT manner. – Βατο ( talk) 02:16, 15 February 2024 (UTC)