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Archive 1 |
I'm trying to restore my multiple-definitions approach, but I'm including a fourth definition now, the expansive definition that some of the dark wave fans here would seem to like to see used.
If you'd like to try and improve on this, that's great, but I ask you to remember that we're supposed to be *neutral* here, we're working on an encyclopedia entry, not a press release.
As for me, I'm not trying to diss your genre, I'm trying to describe all the meanings of "darkwave" that I think I've seen in use.
-- Doom 22:55, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
I've got a bunch of small problems with this article, but let's lead with the one big one: what's going on here? If you're one of the people who have been working on re-writing it, I'd like you to ask yourself what your motives are exactly: are you trying to help make the term clear to someone who's never encountered it before? Or are you trying to make it seem more significant than it is to help out your scene/band/etc.?
On with the minutiae:
(0) My contention is that "darkwave" means different things to different people, which means that you need multiple definitions to explain it: this is okay, it happens. Look at the dictionary sometime. My writeup began with the german usage, which seems to have come first; then I talked about the Projekt label association which if anything is the first thing people think of in the US; and also mentioned some other associations (e.g. "dark new wave"). The distinctions between definitions have become totally blurred and the third meaning has been dropped completely. Let me repeat the main point here one more time: there is no one definition that will satisfy everyone: don't just delete a definition that doesn't work for you personally.
(1) The two names that I most often hear as examples of the original Darkwave are "Das Ich" and "Project Pitchfork", so that's what I lead my write-up with. Now "Project Pitchfork" has been removed: why?
(2) "Die Form" has been added, which is a great band to be sure, but it's also a band that has done a lot of different kinds of music, so using them as an example of Darkwave can't possibly clarify what you mean. Also, they're a french band, which makes it a little odd to use them in a discussion of german darkwave.
(3) There's a similar problems with "Android Lust": a woman from bangladesh raised in the US - first release in 1998. What has that to do with German darkwave in 1990 or so?
(4) When was the term "darkwave" first used? Not when did some band start playing that you can later call "darkwave", but when was the term first used? My claim is it came into play around the early 90s, *not* the mid-80s. Can you tell me different? Do you have any evidence? A printed review? Can you find someone from the german scene in the mid-80s who'll swear they started talking about darkwave the moment they heard "The Cure"?
Anyway, I may indluge in another re-write, though when I'm done I'm afraid it'll look a lot like the first writeup that I did...
Doom 03:07, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
FemmyV ( talk) 17:28, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I think Dark Wave is not really gothic rock - sometimes it is a mixture from gothic rock and wave, maybe caused by the success of The Cure which are influencial band in the late 80ies. But Das Ich and also Goethes Erben are not really wave music, they are something completely different - Neue Deutsche Todeskunst, a different style. The belgian band The Breath of Life is a interesting mixture of gothic rock and guitar wave. Rabauz 18:05, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In beginning of this article, I was talking about what appears to be the earliest usage of "Darkwave" to describe some German bands. The bands that seem to be most commonly cited are the two that I listed as most commonly cited: Das Ich and Project Pitchfork. This does not mean that they're the *best*, nor does it mean that they're the *only*, just that they're commonly used to give some indication of what was at least origianlly meant by the term.
Since I wrote this, a list of band names has sprouted between those two names. I'm not familiar enough with them to say where they belong in the article, but I can tell they don't belong inbetween Das Ich and Project Pitchfork. If you really feel like they have to be in the main article, I suggest adding a list at the bottom "other darkwave bands" (I'm reluctant to do that because I hate lists like that in wikipedia... it's an invitation to mindless stamp collecting that doesn't really add much to the discussion of the concept):
(One of these bands is from florida, another is from oklahoma, two of them don't have wikipedia entries, but appear to be metal bands of some sort, judging by a quick google. And while Clan of Xymox is a great band, it would seem a better example of gothic rock than darkwave -- I note that the german wikipedia article about darkwave name drops Xymox, but the babelfish translation -- see below -- reveals that they're calling it an "outlier", evidentally thrown in as an earliest possible example that sort of sounds like what they mean... though I'm afraid that it just makes me think that "darkwave" is and always was a euphemism for "gothic" by people who find the term gothic embarassing for some reason. I mean, Switchblade Symphony, from my neck of the woods, was appearing on gothic-industrial comps in the early 90s and none of us thought they were deserving of a new genre name... but perhaps I digress). -- Doom 12:46, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
For reference, here's the Babel Fish translation of the de.wikipedia.org article about darkwave:
In English: Dark Wave or also rare Gothic Wave, designates the musical Melange from Gothic and Wave starting from center of the 80's in Germany. As outriders of this style are considered among other things the Netherlands clan OF Xymox, which already 1983/84 strengthen Wave and Gothic elements united and on that 1986 published album "Medusa" perfected. In the same year the Debut appeared that volume your lakaien (1991 again-published) and the only album of the Calling DEAD talk Roses, whose volume members brought the projects Girls Under Glass and CAN cerium bar rack after nearly 1-jaehrigem existence into being. In contrast to the pure Gothic sound here the guitars take a less dominating place, sound partly quite poppig and/or are not used only at all. Further important Dark Wave of volume (selection): Diary OF Dreams, Kirlian Camera, Forthcoming Fire, Sopor Aeternus, Frozen Autumn, The Cruexshadows, Switchblade Symphony, ASP. See also new ones German death art (NDT) Members of the Dark Wave scene like already the proceeding new Wave scene called and/or call themselves Waver, although since center of the 1990er years the comprehensive term Gothics dominate might.
I added/helped/changed alot of what was on the article. I kept your main paragraph though since it was indeed right. ;)
Darkwave is arguably not a top-level electronic genre (in the same way that techno, trance and house are), I think it should be a subgenre of industrial music and gothic rock, or some combination. Compare "industrial music" vs "darkwave" "techno music" vs "darkwave", and "house music" vs "darkwave". -- Lexor| Talk 00:31, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)
Hello, I usually take into much consideration google results, but this time I have to disagree, I believe darkwave to be a genre by its own. Musical genres often spring from other musical genres and I think darkwave represents a more ethereal and ambiental aspect than goth music. -- xDCDx 04:23, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think it is wrong to say dark ambient is the origin of dark wave - IMO it is the other way round, because in the late 80ies and early nineties there was dark wave but no dark ambient. Dark Ambient was later on developed with influences from gothic, classical, dark wave and electronica. Rabauz 11:39, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
so there was a darkwave genre in the 80s, at exactly the same time as new wave, but no-one called it darkwave until the 90s? i don't like the way the edit made a few days ago has changed the first paragraph to sound like a description of the 'third definition'. and by "a femine male archtype" i'm assuming they mean "a feminine male archetype", but is that really a useful (or coherent) description? -- MilkMiruku 18:54, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
» ...up to now 1988 oldest mention «
» I discovered Dark Wave now as term in a 1988's New Life-magazine [number 38 / page 10]. In a review for the electropop artist Invinsible Limits, which wants to have covered "the dark wave classical Love Tear Us Apart from Joy Division". «
The first time I heard the term Darkwave was in 1984. A girl in my high school art class told me that I was wrong to label Bauhaus New Wave, and that the correct term was 'Darkwave'. Back then, we didn't use the term 'Goth' (sometimes 'Gothic' was used, but it was quite rare), and the term 'BatCave' had recently started to become popular; but generally, we just called everything New Wave or Punk. It was much less complicated. Ha ha.
To me darkwave was always just simply a combination of goth rock and elements of industrial, with some ethereal thrown in the mix. I know the etymology is important, but I'm just, as I said, throwing my 2¢ in. Khirad talk 23:57, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
87.122.37.156 seems to have a bit of an axe to grind (Seen by edits at Darkwave, Psyche). I think that the general definition of darkwave would seem to imply that Psyche qualifies (dark, electronic), and the timing is certainly correct.
"Darkwave isn't a music style. it's a generic term. the music genre infobox is useless..."
Darkwave is a H Y P E R O N Y M... do you understand? This term embraced many styles of music like Goth rock or dark Synthpop. Synthpop isn't the same like Gothrock. Electrogoth isn't a subgenre of Darkwave... that's absolutely bullshit.
Maybe you should create a new infobox-template... the music-genre infobox is useless for hyperonyms/generic terms. -- 87.122.34.248 00:12, March 16 2006
Hello, is there anyone still interested in discussing this article? I usually do not read anything related to music genres, becouse I'm new on Wikipedia, and I feel that I have to contribute on articles regarding bands and discographies. Nevertheless, I could improve this page, I can witness for example that the term was used since 1982/83, and that the word Gothic was almost never used those days. Also, a lot of bands need to be mentioned, I'll post a list here tomorrow. Dr. Who 13:47, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Most important are the mentions and the interviews of the 80s and the 90s. In the last decade there was a great misuse of the term darkwave.
In the late 80s/early 90s the band Das Ich was one of the founders of the Neue Deutsche Todeskunst, the last genre within the dark wave movement. Das Ich used elements of goth, post-industrial and electrowave. A lot of bands of the NDT was completely electronic or used neoclassical elements. But no one of these NDT bands was a founder of darkwave, because darkwave is definitely a term from the 80s. Bands like Project Pitchfork were called electrowave until the middle of the 90s (not long after Pitchfork changed their music style with "alpha omega"). I can scan a lot of interviews. These interviews are as old as the hills.
In many countries there were different movements. Specially the English goth movement wasn't really identical to the German movement, because the German movement was a darkwave movement. The members of the German movement weren't called goths in the 80s or early 90s, but they were called waver or grufties. And germany has really the most mentions of the term "dark wave" (including compilations such as The Myths Of Avalon). Strange, but i don't know why...
In England, everything was called goth or new wave. I don't think that british people used the term darkwave. In France everything was called coldwave or batcave. In the US, everything was called goth or industrial. In Germany everything was called new wave, dark wave or simply wave (including goth music. Goth rock bands such as Love Like Blood or Swans Of Avon called their music "dark wave").
In my opinion darkwave is an umbrella term from central Europe. It's not really a music style. A lot of bands mixed the different dark wave genres (e.g. goth with synth pop or goth with ethereal etc.). But that's more a crossover thing. Specially the 90s were a decade of crossover. Darkwave isn't a musicologically homogeneous style. -- 87.122.28.187 20:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I've seen folk music played on Ibanez guitars.
by Dr. Who 23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I found an interesting interview of the french coldwave band Excès Nocturne from 1989. It's from a french magazine called „Illusions Perdues“. Excès Nocturne describe their music as "new wave noire" (dark new wave). -- Menorrhea 22:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Vocals: often had a disctinctive "metallic" sound, and rejected common ways to sing "easy" melodies.
Iggy Pop and
Lou Reed may be regarded as the main influence
Guitars: distortion, long reverb, echo (high number of short repetitions) and flanger; solos were very minimalist
Bass guitar: chorus/flanger
Keyboards: soundscapes, featured an influence from
Brian Eno and
1970s German electronic music, rejecting almost totally the lessons of British progressive rock
Drums: the style of
Neu! drummer Klaus Dinger was still the main influence, electronic pads were often used and the rhythm was sometimes suitable for dancing.
by
Dr. Who
23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Please note that dressing like Robert Smith become somewhat fashioned (for some groups of people) in mid and late 1980s (depending on the country). Anyway, many musicians that dressed in black and had a post-punk look were not Darkwavers: Gary Numan and Ultravox were not Dark, despite being dressed in black along 1983/84, U2 and Brian Eno dressed in black during the recording sessions of The Unforgettable Fire album, as showed in a relevant video, of course they had nothing to do with the Dark scene.by Dr. Who 23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Dark may be regarded as a subgenre of Goth rock, crossed with a strong "New Wave influence". Actually more than a subgenre or a style in and for itself, Darkwave is just a mood within postpunk, and also a music scene if referred to those bands of early 1980s. Since early 1990s the term Gothic rock has been used to encompass most of Darkwave music and related works/artists. Notably, Peter Murphy solo career is Gothic rock, but only few of his songs are Darkwave. The Cult become a hard rock band after 1986, and it is arguable whether they can be referred to as Gothic. In my opinion the term Gothic rock appeared only recently, I have never heard "Goth" along the early-mid 1980s, but I could be wrong. By the by, I had the chance (20/22 years ago) to see Siouxsie and The Banshees, The Sound, Ultravox and The Cult in live gigs in my "hometown"; though I am no longer a Darkwave listener, I still remember and regard those shows as simply great and wonderful.by Dr. Who 23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, but when there are different POVs in different regions - how do you define the darkwave music of the 90s? In Germany and other countries the bands had a strong connection to the old bands of the 80s. La Floa Maldita, Chandeen, The Frozen Autumn, Faith & The Muse, The Garden Of Delight, Pink Turns Blue, Love Spirals Downwards, Silke Bischoff, and many more - all of these bands were categorized as darkwave bands and all of these bands sounded like 80s music groups. There was not a great cut between 80s and 90s. They simply continued the sound of the 80s until the middle of the 90s without an influence of modern styles like techno. -- Menorrhea 11:30, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I created the article Danse Society. Everybody is welcome to check and expand it.-- Dr. Who 00:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
The article is missing a section regarding the present days. The Bauhaus reunited, maybe the interest towards these bands is slowly increasing. I believe it is a general phenomenon, many "alternative" musical genres and scenes are currently joined by larger numbers of fans than in the past, thanks to the web. So it is worth making further searches. Dr. Who 00:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I've made the first stab at splitting the article into the umbrella term and the specific style. It could definitely do with some more work, but that's it for now. Donnacha 00:50, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Despite citations and easy to find sources on the web, there are two people who insist on imposing their own personal view on this article in contravention of common use of the term darkwave for 15 years or so. Details above. Donnacha 08:48, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Death Pop Mention: 1993 — Subline Magazine, Advertisement, 1993
The most bands in these magazines were
goth rock bands in the vein of Sisters, Fields, Cure or And Also The Trees. And they were called "darkwave" until the middle of the 90s. Shortly after, the term "darkwave" came out of use in the most regional scenes of Germany, because the Wave music had finally faded. Music styles, such as gothic metal, medieval rock or electro-industrial, displaced this relic of the 80s.
So as you can see, it's not my POV. I have a little magazine collection. Maybe i'll scan more in the next time. -- Menorrhea 01:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Electrogoth is different, the vocal style is more traditionally Goth.
[ EOL Audio] [ FLUXEUROPA]
Do you want add any POV of other people? So you can delete every article in this encyclopedia, because no music style is definable with different POV. It's the same thing like goth. A few people think that Tokio Hotel or Nu Pagadi are goth bands. So you must add they to the Goth article, because these POVs are facts of the real life. Sorry for my bad english. -- Menorrhea 12:36, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
BTW: Since the beginning of the darkwave movement there were overlaps between goth, industrial or synth pop, e. g. Alien Sex Fiend were an industrialgoth group, Bauhaus were inspired by Throbbing Gristle, Data-Bank-A sounds like The Sisters Of Mercy on an industrial trip. The german band Malaria! used sounds which you can call "industrial meets goth" (see
this video from 1982), many groups were influenced by the Einstürzende Neubauten. The same thing with Pink Industry from Liverpool. So these overlaps are as old as the hills and definitely not a development of the late 80s or the early 90s. --
Menorrhea
17:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Please, before reading the following, keep in your minds that I do not "hate" computers, the internet, Google, search engines, web-based music-zines and Wikipedia, indeed I actually love all this.
Hey Mr number, I don't want to fall foul of the 3RR, so please post in here. Please stop adding criticism of the criticism in the Criticism section (wow, that's a mouthful). It's properly cited and accurate. I don't think Mick is right, but the whole piece above lays out the style. Donnacha 21:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Dark Wave 80 from 2004
I found various "darkwave" bands( The Crüxshadows , Blutengel , Tristesse De La Lune )had been labeld "Electropop"(one was even called Eurodance, i mean what the hell!) even if its not 100% right according to some(but for me synthmusic with a gothic style is perfectly prefectly well called darkwave) i think darkwave fits those bands much better than Electropop (and especially eurodance o.-) Kitten!meow 20:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot 23:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be a lot of mention of The Cure when referring to dark wave, yet there is absolutely no mention of the genre (not even in the genre list) on The Cure's article. Is there something I'm missing here? Poiuyt Man talk 22:30, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
They're not darkwave. The proper terms for their darker music are post-punk and gothic rock. WesleyDodds ( talk) 08:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I'm trying to restore my multiple-definitions approach, but I'm including a fourth definition now, the expansive definition that some of the dark wave fans here would seem to like to see used.
If you'd like to try and improve on this, that's great, but I ask you to remember that we're supposed to be *neutral* here, we're working on an encyclopedia entry, not a press release.
As for me, I'm not trying to diss your genre, I'm trying to describe all the meanings of "darkwave" that I think I've seen in use.
-- Doom 22:55, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
I've got a bunch of small problems with this article, but let's lead with the one big one: what's going on here? If you're one of the people who have been working on re-writing it, I'd like you to ask yourself what your motives are exactly: are you trying to help make the term clear to someone who's never encountered it before? Or are you trying to make it seem more significant than it is to help out your scene/band/etc.?
On with the minutiae:
(0) My contention is that "darkwave" means different things to different people, which means that you need multiple definitions to explain it: this is okay, it happens. Look at the dictionary sometime. My writeup began with the german usage, which seems to have come first; then I talked about the Projekt label association which if anything is the first thing people think of in the US; and also mentioned some other associations (e.g. "dark new wave"). The distinctions between definitions have become totally blurred and the third meaning has been dropped completely. Let me repeat the main point here one more time: there is no one definition that will satisfy everyone: don't just delete a definition that doesn't work for you personally.
(1) The two names that I most often hear as examples of the original Darkwave are "Das Ich" and "Project Pitchfork", so that's what I lead my write-up with. Now "Project Pitchfork" has been removed: why?
(2) "Die Form" has been added, which is a great band to be sure, but it's also a band that has done a lot of different kinds of music, so using them as an example of Darkwave can't possibly clarify what you mean. Also, they're a french band, which makes it a little odd to use them in a discussion of german darkwave.
(3) There's a similar problems with "Android Lust": a woman from bangladesh raised in the US - first release in 1998. What has that to do with German darkwave in 1990 or so?
(4) When was the term "darkwave" first used? Not when did some band start playing that you can later call "darkwave", but when was the term first used? My claim is it came into play around the early 90s, *not* the mid-80s. Can you tell me different? Do you have any evidence? A printed review? Can you find someone from the german scene in the mid-80s who'll swear they started talking about darkwave the moment they heard "The Cure"?
Anyway, I may indluge in another re-write, though when I'm done I'm afraid it'll look a lot like the first writeup that I did...
Doom 03:07, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
FemmyV ( talk) 17:28, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I think Dark Wave is not really gothic rock - sometimes it is a mixture from gothic rock and wave, maybe caused by the success of The Cure which are influencial band in the late 80ies. But Das Ich and also Goethes Erben are not really wave music, they are something completely different - Neue Deutsche Todeskunst, a different style. The belgian band The Breath of Life is a interesting mixture of gothic rock and guitar wave. Rabauz 18:05, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In beginning of this article, I was talking about what appears to be the earliest usage of "Darkwave" to describe some German bands. The bands that seem to be most commonly cited are the two that I listed as most commonly cited: Das Ich and Project Pitchfork. This does not mean that they're the *best*, nor does it mean that they're the *only*, just that they're commonly used to give some indication of what was at least origianlly meant by the term.
Since I wrote this, a list of band names has sprouted between those two names. I'm not familiar enough with them to say where they belong in the article, but I can tell they don't belong inbetween Das Ich and Project Pitchfork. If you really feel like they have to be in the main article, I suggest adding a list at the bottom "other darkwave bands" (I'm reluctant to do that because I hate lists like that in wikipedia... it's an invitation to mindless stamp collecting that doesn't really add much to the discussion of the concept):
(One of these bands is from florida, another is from oklahoma, two of them don't have wikipedia entries, but appear to be metal bands of some sort, judging by a quick google. And while Clan of Xymox is a great band, it would seem a better example of gothic rock than darkwave -- I note that the german wikipedia article about darkwave name drops Xymox, but the babelfish translation -- see below -- reveals that they're calling it an "outlier", evidentally thrown in as an earliest possible example that sort of sounds like what they mean... though I'm afraid that it just makes me think that "darkwave" is and always was a euphemism for "gothic" by people who find the term gothic embarassing for some reason. I mean, Switchblade Symphony, from my neck of the woods, was appearing on gothic-industrial comps in the early 90s and none of us thought they were deserving of a new genre name... but perhaps I digress). -- Doom 12:46, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
For reference, here's the Babel Fish translation of the de.wikipedia.org article about darkwave:
In English: Dark Wave or also rare Gothic Wave, designates the musical Melange from Gothic and Wave starting from center of the 80's in Germany. As outriders of this style are considered among other things the Netherlands clan OF Xymox, which already 1983/84 strengthen Wave and Gothic elements united and on that 1986 published album "Medusa" perfected. In the same year the Debut appeared that volume your lakaien (1991 again-published) and the only album of the Calling DEAD talk Roses, whose volume members brought the projects Girls Under Glass and CAN cerium bar rack after nearly 1-jaehrigem existence into being. In contrast to the pure Gothic sound here the guitars take a less dominating place, sound partly quite poppig and/or are not used only at all. Further important Dark Wave of volume (selection): Diary OF Dreams, Kirlian Camera, Forthcoming Fire, Sopor Aeternus, Frozen Autumn, The Cruexshadows, Switchblade Symphony, ASP. See also new ones German death art (NDT) Members of the Dark Wave scene like already the proceeding new Wave scene called and/or call themselves Waver, although since center of the 1990er years the comprehensive term Gothics dominate might.
I added/helped/changed alot of what was on the article. I kept your main paragraph though since it was indeed right. ;)
Darkwave is arguably not a top-level electronic genre (in the same way that techno, trance and house are), I think it should be a subgenre of industrial music and gothic rock, or some combination. Compare "industrial music" vs "darkwave" "techno music" vs "darkwave", and "house music" vs "darkwave". -- Lexor| Talk 00:31, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)
Hello, I usually take into much consideration google results, but this time I have to disagree, I believe darkwave to be a genre by its own. Musical genres often spring from other musical genres and I think darkwave represents a more ethereal and ambiental aspect than goth music. -- xDCDx 04:23, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think it is wrong to say dark ambient is the origin of dark wave - IMO it is the other way round, because in the late 80ies and early nineties there was dark wave but no dark ambient. Dark Ambient was later on developed with influences from gothic, classical, dark wave and electronica. Rabauz 11:39, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
so there was a darkwave genre in the 80s, at exactly the same time as new wave, but no-one called it darkwave until the 90s? i don't like the way the edit made a few days ago has changed the first paragraph to sound like a description of the 'third definition'. and by "a femine male archtype" i'm assuming they mean "a feminine male archetype", but is that really a useful (or coherent) description? -- MilkMiruku 18:54, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
» ...up to now 1988 oldest mention «
» I discovered Dark Wave now as term in a 1988's New Life-magazine [number 38 / page 10]. In a review for the electropop artist Invinsible Limits, which wants to have covered "the dark wave classical Love Tear Us Apart from Joy Division". «
The first time I heard the term Darkwave was in 1984. A girl in my high school art class told me that I was wrong to label Bauhaus New Wave, and that the correct term was 'Darkwave'. Back then, we didn't use the term 'Goth' (sometimes 'Gothic' was used, but it was quite rare), and the term 'BatCave' had recently started to become popular; but generally, we just called everything New Wave or Punk. It was much less complicated. Ha ha.
To me darkwave was always just simply a combination of goth rock and elements of industrial, with some ethereal thrown in the mix. I know the etymology is important, but I'm just, as I said, throwing my 2¢ in. Khirad talk 23:57, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
87.122.37.156 seems to have a bit of an axe to grind (Seen by edits at Darkwave, Psyche). I think that the general definition of darkwave would seem to imply that Psyche qualifies (dark, electronic), and the timing is certainly correct.
"Darkwave isn't a music style. it's a generic term. the music genre infobox is useless..."
Darkwave is a H Y P E R O N Y M... do you understand? This term embraced many styles of music like Goth rock or dark Synthpop. Synthpop isn't the same like Gothrock. Electrogoth isn't a subgenre of Darkwave... that's absolutely bullshit.
Maybe you should create a new infobox-template... the music-genre infobox is useless for hyperonyms/generic terms. -- 87.122.34.248 00:12, March 16 2006
Hello, is there anyone still interested in discussing this article? I usually do not read anything related to music genres, becouse I'm new on Wikipedia, and I feel that I have to contribute on articles regarding bands and discographies. Nevertheless, I could improve this page, I can witness for example that the term was used since 1982/83, and that the word Gothic was almost never used those days. Also, a lot of bands need to be mentioned, I'll post a list here tomorrow. Dr. Who 13:47, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Most important are the mentions and the interviews of the 80s and the 90s. In the last decade there was a great misuse of the term darkwave.
In the late 80s/early 90s the band Das Ich was one of the founders of the Neue Deutsche Todeskunst, the last genre within the dark wave movement. Das Ich used elements of goth, post-industrial and electrowave. A lot of bands of the NDT was completely electronic or used neoclassical elements. But no one of these NDT bands was a founder of darkwave, because darkwave is definitely a term from the 80s. Bands like Project Pitchfork were called electrowave until the middle of the 90s (not long after Pitchfork changed their music style with "alpha omega"). I can scan a lot of interviews. These interviews are as old as the hills.
In many countries there were different movements. Specially the English goth movement wasn't really identical to the German movement, because the German movement was a darkwave movement. The members of the German movement weren't called goths in the 80s or early 90s, but they were called waver or grufties. And germany has really the most mentions of the term "dark wave" (including compilations such as The Myths Of Avalon). Strange, but i don't know why...
In England, everything was called goth or new wave. I don't think that british people used the term darkwave. In France everything was called coldwave or batcave. In the US, everything was called goth or industrial. In Germany everything was called new wave, dark wave or simply wave (including goth music. Goth rock bands such as Love Like Blood or Swans Of Avon called their music "dark wave").
In my opinion darkwave is an umbrella term from central Europe. It's not really a music style. A lot of bands mixed the different dark wave genres (e.g. goth with synth pop or goth with ethereal etc.). But that's more a crossover thing. Specially the 90s were a decade of crossover. Darkwave isn't a musicologically homogeneous style. -- 87.122.28.187 20:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I've seen folk music played on Ibanez guitars.
by Dr. Who 23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I found an interesting interview of the french coldwave band Excès Nocturne from 1989. It's from a french magazine called „Illusions Perdues“. Excès Nocturne describe their music as "new wave noire" (dark new wave). -- Menorrhea 22:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Vocals: often had a disctinctive "metallic" sound, and rejected common ways to sing "easy" melodies.
Iggy Pop and
Lou Reed may be regarded as the main influence
Guitars: distortion, long reverb, echo (high number of short repetitions) and flanger; solos were very minimalist
Bass guitar: chorus/flanger
Keyboards: soundscapes, featured an influence from
Brian Eno and
1970s German electronic music, rejecting almost totally the lessons of British progressive rock
Drums: the style of
Neu! drummer Klaus Dinger was still the main influence, electronic pads were often used and the rhythm was sometimes suitable for dancing.
by
Dr. Who
23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Please note that dressing like Robert Smith become somewhat fashioned (for some groups of people) in mid and late 1980s (depending on the country). Anyway, many musicians that dressed in black and had a post-punk look were not Darkwavers: Gary Numan and Ultravox were not Dark, despite being dressed in black along 1983/84, U2 and Brian Eno dressed in black during the recording sessions of The Unforgettable Fire album, as showed in a relevant video, of course they had nothing to do with the Dark scene.by Dr. Who 23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Dark may be regarded as a subgenre of Goth rock, crossed with a strong "New Wave influence". Actually more than a subgenre or a style in and for itself, Darkwave is just a mood within postpunk, and also a music scene if referred to those bands of early 1980s. Since early 1990s the term Gothic rock has been used to encompass most of Darkwave music and related works/artists. Notably, Peter Murphy solo career is Gothic rock, but only few of his songs are Darkwave. The Cult become a hard rock band after 1986, and it is arguable whether they can be referred to as Gothic. In my opinion the term Gothic rock appeared only recently, I have never heard "Goth" along the early-mid 1980s, but I could be wrong. By the by, I had the chance (20/22 years ago) to see Siouxsie and The Banshees, The Sound, Ultravox and The Cult in live gigs in my "hometown"; though I am no longer a Darkwave listener, I still remember and regard those shows as simply great and wonderful.by Dr. Who 23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, but when there are different POVs in different regions - how do you define the darkwave music of the 90s? In Germany and other countries the bands had a strong connection to the old bands of the 80s. La Floa Maldita, Chandeen, The Frozen Autumn, Faith & The Muse, The Garden Of Delight, Pink Turns Blue, Love Spirals Downwards, Silke Bischoff, and many more - all of these bands were categorized as darkwave bands and all of these bands sounded like 80s music groups. There was not a great cut between 80s and 90s. They simply continued the sound of the 80s until the middle of the 90s without an influence of modern styles like techno. -- Menorrhea 11:30, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I created the article Danse Society. Everybody is welcome to check and expand it.-- Dr. Who 00:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
The article is missing a section regarding the present days. The Bauhaus reunited, maybe the interest towards these bands is slowly increasing. I believe it is a general phenomenon, many "alternative" musical genres and scenes are currently joined by larger numbers of fans than in the past, thanks to the web. So it is worth making further searches. Dr. Who 00:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I've made the first stab at splitting the article into the umbrella term and the specific style. It could definitely do with some more work, but that's it for now. Donnacha 00:50, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Despite citations and easy to find sources on the web, there are two people who insist on imposing their own personal view on this article in contravention of common use of the term darkwave for 15 years or so. Details above. Donnacha 08:48, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Death Pop Mention: 1993 — Subline Magazine, Advertisement, 1993
The most bands in these magazines were
goth rock bands in the vein of Sisters, Fields, Cure or And Also The Trees. And they were called "darkwave" until the middle of the 90s. Shortly after, the term "darkwave" came out of use in the most regional scenes of Germany, because the Wave music had finally faded. Music styles, such as gothic metal, medieval rock or electro-industrial, displaced this relic of the 80s.
So as you can see, it's not my POV. I have a little magazine collection. Maybe i'll scan more in the next time. -- Menorrhea 01:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Electrogoth is different, the vocal style is more traditionally Goth.
[ EOL Audio] [ FLUXEUROPA]
Do you want add any POV of other people? So you can delete every article in this encyclopedia, because no music style is definable with different POV. It's the same thing like goth. A few people think that Tokio Hotel or Nu Pagadi are goth bands. So you must add they to the Goth article, because these POVs are facts of the real life. Sorry for my bad english. -- Menorrhea 12:36, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
BTW: Since the beginning of the darkwave movement there were overlaps between goth, industrial or synth pop, e. g. Alien Sex Fiend were an industrialgoth group, Bauhaus were inspired by Throbbing Gristle, Data-Bank-A sounds like The Sisters Of Mercy on an industrial trip. The german band Malaria! used sounds which you can call "industrial meets goth" (see
this video from 1982), many groups were influenced by the Einstürzende Neubauten. The same thing with Pink Industry from Liverpool. So these overlaps are as old as the hills and definitely not a development of the late 80s or the early 90s. --
Menorrhea
17:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Please, before reading the following, keep in your minds that I do not "hate" computers, the internet, Google, search engines, web-based music-zines and Wikipedia, indeed I actually love all this.
Hey Mr number, I don't want to fall foul of the 3RR, so please post in here. Please stop adding criticism of the criticism in the Criticism section (wow, that's a mouthful). It's properly cited and accurate. I don't think Mick is right, but the whole piece above lays out the style. Donnacha 21:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Dark Wave 80 from 2004
I found various "darkwave" bands( The Crüxshadows , Blutengel , Tristesse De La Lune )had been labeld "Electropop"(one was even called Eurodance, i mean what the hell!) even if its not 100% right according to some(but for me synthmusic with a gothic style is perfectly prefectly well called darkwave) i think darkwave fits those bands much better than Electropop (and especially eurodance o.-) Kitten!meow 20:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot 23:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be a lot of mention of The Cure when referring to dark wave, yet there is absolutely no mention of the genre (not even in the genre list) on The Cure's article. Is there something I'm missing here? Poiuyt Man talk 22:30, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
They're not darkwave. The proper terms for their darker music are post-punk and gothic rock. WesleyDodds ( talk) 08:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
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