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Dari, also known as Farsi, is apparently similar in syntax to Farsi.
That is confusing.
According to
http://www.darilanguageproject.org/2003_summary_of_findings.pdf, Dari the language of the Zoroastrians (not Persian?), as well as the Afghani dialect of Persian. Here too, there appears to be some confusion. At,
http://www.persiangulfonline.org/aboutus/letters/SoroushRichardShehabi.htm, Soroush Richard Shehabi claims that Afghani's actually speak Farsi which is really just Persian. I just don't get it
There are in fact two Dari languages. (1) The variety of Persian spoken in Afghanistan, which is mutually intelligible with Farsi. (2) The Northwestern Iranian language spoken by the Zoroastrians of Yazd, Iran (also called Gabri). See: www.darilanguageproject.org.
It is a common mistake to make. Afghanistan's major language is Pashto. The reason why people think that its farsi is due to the pashtoon's being the poorer ethnicity, and thus not having as much power as the dari speakers.
http://www.sabawoon.com/afghanpedia/Language.Dari.shtm
You can see in that link that dair is spoken by only around 30% of the country, not the 60% shown in this wikipedia entry.
Dari is only spoken in north afghanistan all together about 30%, but pashto is spken by more then 70% afghans all around afghanistan, because in every part of afghanistan in evrywhere provinces included the main place of DARI speakers KAbul and panjshir still their are more then 40% pashtoon in every province of dari spoken but in other part they all speak pashtoo, even though you wouldn't find a single person in whole city who understand DARI, and its a fact.
Pashtoo is spken by more than 70% afghans in Afghanistan
Regarding the informations written about Dari in this article, I have some points to declare:
- Dari is not a dialect of Farsi (Persian) language of Iran
- Dari was not developed from Pahlawi Sasani as Farsi developped. In fact, Dari developed from Takhari, Partawi (Pahlawi Ashkani) and Soghdi languages
- Dari is a completely different language other than Gabri or Dari of Iran. Gabri or Dari of Iran is a dialect of Farsi, and there are major differences between them i.e. Vocabulary usage, Expressions, Dialect or accent, Writing style, etc. It would be illogical to refer Dari spoken in Afghanistan to the Dari/ Gabri of Iran.
- Dari itself has its own dialects i.e. Kabuli, Herawi/Herati, Takhari and Badakhshi.
- Dari was not distinguished because of the political means of the Pashtoon Government in Afghanistan. In fact, the researches taken out by great Tajik Afghan writers, historians, scholars and researchers proved that Dari developped from Takhari, Partawi and Soghdi languages.
In order to support my statements, here I cite some pieces of texts of old Farsi-Dari literature books:
- Some Manuscript writings on a stone found in one of the Kushanian Temples in Baghlan (a city in Afghanistan) in 1951 show that Dari developped from Takhari language. There are almost 160 words in 25 lines of Takhari language written in the Greek transcripts. In these manuscripts which are more than 1800 years old, one can clearly see the familiarities of Dari and Takhari languages. So it completely shows that Dari was NOT developped from Pahlawi Sasani as Farsi did.
- Mohammad Taqi Bahar, the great poet and writer of Iran, writes in his book "Sabk-Shunasi", vol.1: “...some people say that Dari is a developed dialect of Sughdi language, that the people of Bukhara, Samarqand and regions of Jaihun (Amu) river used to communicate in it for a long time. And some people, relying on the statements of Abdullah ibn-Muqaffa say that Dari was the language of cities and courts, and it was the softest and the most fluent language of the Sasanid period, and it contained mostly the eastern words, especially Balkhi words.” He then continues and gives his own point of view: “As after the coming of Islam, the people of Bukhara and Samarqand wrote many books in Dari, and the poets of Khorasan (Afghanistan) narrated poems in this language, so Dari came step by step from Khorasan to Iran. I can say as a conclusion that Dari is the language of Balkh and Bukhara.”
- Abdullah ibn Muqaffa writes in his book “Al-Fehrest” (378 JC) that: “Pahlawi (the old Farsi) refers to Pahla, the language of Five cities: Esfahan, Ray, Hamadan, Mah Nawand and Azerbaijan. But Dari was the language of citizens (people of cities) and people in the kings’ courts used to speak in Dari. It is the language of Khorasan people and the East, mostly that of the people of Balkh (a city in the north of Afghanistan). While Farsi was the language of religious people, by which the people of Pars (Iran) communicated.”
I suggest that one should not rely only on the researches of recent Iranian writers. He/she should study the works and researches of Afghan Historians and Writers as well, so that he could well analyze a point. I can provide further Bibliography and Sources, if one was interested.
The developement of the Iranian languages is well-researched and well-documented. Today's "Dari" in Afghanistan is only the Eastern dialect of Farsi and has Western-Iranian origins (even though the dialect itself emerged in Eastern Iran). I do not know what language "Takhari" is, but if you are talking about Tocharian language, the language was not even Iranic and its recostruction is difficult (in other words: we do not know much about that language). The Sogdian language was an Eastern-Iranian language and totally different from "Dari" in grammar and vocabulary, although some Sogdian words have survived in modern Persian. The only living offspring of Sogdian is the Yaghnobi language - an Eastern-Iranian language, much closer to Pashto than to "Dari".
Khoob! Pesh e jaananeh e maa kishmish o pumbdaaneh yakeist! What language did Amir Khusrau of Delhi use whose poetry took Iran, Turkey and Mawrannahar by storm in the 13th century? Dari or Parsi? Besides what does Hafiz Shirazi refer to in his line "Taa khwajeh mei khurad beghazalha e pahlavi"? Did Hafiz write in a different language sitting in Ruknaabad, Shiraz thousands of miles away from Delhi where Khusrau had written his poetry? 59.176.37.39 06:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)Lutfullah
The new article posted about the Dari language contains lots of contradictions and lots of incorrect information. It seems to me that the writer is backed by his personal views of todays political situations between Afghanistan and Iran.
Here are my comments:
1. In the section of History, the 2nd paragraph, the author says that there's no difference between Aryan, Iranian and Persian. However, Persian is a mixed
Elam-
Aryan civilisation, while Aryan and Iranian can be considered the same. Iran, the current country, was always known as
Persia or Fârs. It was in 1935 that Reza Shah Pahlawi changed the name of Persia to Iran, by the support of Nazi regime in Germany.
Ariana or Aryana is general name used for all the regions of Transoxiana (Tajikistan, Uzbekistan), Persia (Iran), Khorasan (Afghanistan) and parts of Pakistan (northern parts of Sindh river). By changing the name of Persia to Iran, it doesn't make it to become the same Great and Ancient Ariana, however today's Iran is part of the Great Ariana, as Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan are parts of Ariana. No matter the word "Iran" was initially used during the
Sassanids.
2. In the section of History, 3rd paragraph (Persian originated in Persis) and 5th paragraph (Dari, a spoken language of Parthia..... Dari spread to the east and Transoxiana regions). This is the bigest error and incorrect information posted.
In fact, the Persian language (if we consider it both as Farsi and Dari) originated and developed in Transoxiana (north of Oxus river) and Khorasan (the old Afghanistan regions), and then emerged to the west, to Persia (Iran) during or just before the Sasanids. And during the ruling of Parthians, it was Aramaic, Pahlavi and Parthi/Parti languages common in Persia, NOT Dari. Here are the sources from both Iranian and Afghan historians and researchers:
- “The language of Dari has almost a two thousand-year-old history. It came into being in Khorasan before the Islamic period. It was at first the native language of Khorasanis (people of Khorasan) and then extended to the west (modern Iran). ” History of Afghanistan’s Literature, Moh. Haidar Zhobl, Maiwand Publications, 1379 Peshawar (p.22)
- “Dari emerged for the first time in the East (Khorasan), while at that time the language of Persians (Iranians) was Pahlawi. At that period in Iran, all religious and scientific works were written in Pahlawi, even the poems that were narrated in Iran, Hamadan, Azerbaijan and Tabaristan (today Mazandaran) were in Pahlawi and Tabari languages. However, all old Farsi poems which were narrated in Khorasan by Hanzala Badgheesi, Mohammad Sakazi and Busam-gurd Khareji were written in fluent Dari language.” Ariana Encyclopaedia (Vol.5), Encyclopaedia Association of Afghanistan, 1348 Kabul (p.400)
- “Until the fourth Hijri century (9th BCE), Dari was associated uniquely to Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana and it was not common in Iran, even a single poem or book was not found to be written in Dari in Iran.” [History of Afghanistan’s Literature, Moh. Haidar Zhobl, Maiwand Publications, 1379 Peshawar (p.24)] “…and after the 5th Hijri century, Dari extended to the Persian territories.” [“Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana; the region of Dari’s emergence”, Mr. Kawyani, Khawaran.com website]
- Dr. Said Nafisi, professor in the University of Tehran, writes: “According to some very clear proofs, it is evident that Dari came into being in Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana, and then extended to the Iranian regions, which were not its local territories.” (Reporting from: “Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana; the region of Dari’s emergence”, Mr. Kawyani, Khawaran.com website)
- According to Prof. Shahrestani, Dari was formed during the rule of Behman Ibn-e Espandyar, one of the Kavi (Persian: Kayani) Kings in Balkh, who ruled probably before the Common Era. In several old books, it is mentioned that “At the period of Behman’s ruling, son of Espandyar, people came from different regions to his court and did not understand each others’ languages. Therefore, he ordered the scholars to make a fluent Farsi language, and named it Dari.”
- Mohammad Taqi Bahar, famous Iranian Poet, writes in his book Sabk Shunasi (Vol.1): “Some people say that Dari is the same old Persian, others say that Dari is a dialect of the Soghdi language common in the north of Amu Darya and Samarqand. While others relying on the statements of Abdullah ibn-e Muqaffa believe that Dari was the language of the Capital [city]. It was the most fluent language of the Sassanid period and contained a large number of Eastern words, especially those of Balkh.” He then continues and admits that: “As the people of Samarqand and Bukhara (regions in Tajikistan and Uzbekistan) wrote text and poetry books in Dari after Islam and the poets of Khorasan (Afghanistan) also narrated their poems in this language, Dari came step by step from Khorasan to Iran. I can say as a conclusion that Dari is the language of the people of Bukhara and Balkh.”
- Mr. Jalal Matini, chief editor of the magazine "Iran-Shenasi" and former director of Mashad's University in Iran, writes: "The original teritory of Persian is Transoxiana..... Persian was the language of Transoxiana (Tajikistan and Uzbekistan) and Khorasan (the old Afghanistan) in the 3rd and 4th Hijri centuries. It then emerged to Iran and Indian subcontenent during 8 and 9 centuries." (Iranshenasi Magazine, Number 2, Year 2002, Iranshenasi.net)
So according to all Iranian and Afghan scholars, Persian (Farsi or Dari) came into existence in Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana almost 2000 years ago and then migrated to the west, to Persia.
3. In the section of History, 4th paragaraph, a great error in reporting the statements of Abdullah ibn Muqaffa. According to this article, Abdullah ibn-Muqaffa pronounced Dari as the main language of Fahla, which is reported totally incorrect. It was
Pahlavi the language of Pahla, not Dari.
Here's the statements of Abdullah ibn Muqaffa in his book Al-Fehrest: “Pahlawi (old Farsi) refers to Pahla, which is the name of five cities: Esfahan, Ray, Hamadan, Mah Nawand and Azerbaijan. But Dari is the language of citizens and that of Court (King’s court). It is one of the languages of Khorasan (the old Afghanistan) and eastern regions; the language style of Balkh (city in northern Afghanistan) has more influence on it. While Parsi (Farsi) is the language of Zoroastrian religious leaders, and the people of Persia (Iran) spoke in this language.” Here's the source: "History of the Philosophical sciences of Iran" (tarikh wa uloom-e falsafa-e irani), Abdul Rafi Haqiqat, Komash Publications, 1372 Tehran, page 39
There are other incorrect information posted about Arabic's influence on Dari and Farsi, as well as about the origin of the Dari language. For a detailed information, please
CHECK THIS
It has been the third time that the External Link which I add to the main page of the article is being removed by the user named User:Tajik. He wrote in the comments that the link did not work, however there is neither any problem with the link, nor any violation with the copyright. The main article posted about Dari contains lots of incorrect and inaccurate information, so I did not try to modify it. However, I provided that link under the External Links area. It would be better to defend his point of views in here, in discussion, instead of removing the link. Thank you
I would suggest that in the first step the errors that are present in the current article should or even must be corrected. I pointed out the main and principle errors in this discussion [Dari developed in Persia and emerged to the east to Khorasan and Transoxiana; Dari was spoken during the Parthians; Dari was the language of Fahla... I wonder how do you call it an authentic information] and there is no doubt that the article is written in favour of personal interests for Iran.
__________________________________________________________________________________________
Guys i read all the articles about our language. it is really a pity that in a war torn country we are wasting our time for the things which are not worthed. Dari is derived from a indo European languanged but comes under Soghdi loanguages. Soghdi language has two branches Pahlawi Sasani and Pahlawi Ashkani. From Pahlawi ashknai the dari language is formed and the Pahlawi sasani the Persian language of iran.
It is obvious from its dialect, grammar and some words. For example KACHALO= SAIB ZAMINI 2- BADANJAN ROMI= GOJA FARANGI 3- BADRANG= KHEYAR and other thousands words.
People like Rahnaward Zaryad or Latif Pidraf whom they called themselves Afghanistani instead of Afghan are trying to diverge our country are trying to implement such malicious schemes.
Instead of making words and disputes over this little issue raise and help your country to have roads, city power and infrastructure.
happy reading Nilofa Kabul Novembe 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.165.196.151 ( talk) 07:11, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
The main article has become much more accurate. However, there exists only one major contradition which needs to be modified. Here, I am pointing out that point:
1. First let me copy the Persian translated text of Ibn-Muqaffa: پهلوی منسوب است به پهله که نام پنچ شهر است: اصفهان، ری، همدان، ماه نهاوند و آذربایجان. و اما دری زبان شهر نشینان بود و درباریان با آن سخن می گفتند و منسوب به دربار پادشاهی است و از میان زبان های اهل خراسان و مشرق، زبان مردم بلخ در آن بیشتر بود. اما پارسی، زبان مؤیدان (روحانیون زردتشتی) بود که در پارس مردم به آن دین معتقد بودند
So, Pahlavi the language of Pahla (Medes), Dari the language of Court and the Citizens of Khorasan (eastern Persia), and Parsi the language of Mobidan (Zoroastrian religious) in Persia. But in the article it has been written: "In everyday conversation Dari was used and Parsi was the written and scholarly language"......"The spoken language of Dari however remained intact." I think this point is in contradicion both with the statements of Muqaffa and with the contents of the main article i.e. "Dari is the language of the Sassanids Court and the official Zoroastrian priesthood language."......"Dari emerged as the spoken language of Persian courts of Sassanids." But in fact:
2. Not only Parsi/Farsi got affected by Arabic, but Dari did either. Both Farsi and Dari contain equal combination of Arabic vocabulary. The reason that Dari reserved its pure and original language style and structure, is that in the recent times Dari speaking people (Khorasanis) did not have any direct interaction with other foreign languages, which was because of the Political situations in Afghanistan. (Although the language of Tajikistan severly got affected) As for Farsi, it was influenced by European languages, mainly by French, especially after the Qajar Dyanasty and mostly remarkably during the Pahlavi dynasty. And in the recent years, Dari is suffering from an important impression of Foreing languages. So by saying "Arabic slowly influence Farsi and Dari remained intact" is incorrect according to me.
What is your opinion Tājik? This (the 1st point) is the only major contradiction, according to me. I just wanted to make a confirmation and if you are agree, I will make some modifications (not any major modification) and then you can verify. And if you are not agree, then what are the sources that you are relying on? Ariana310 12:17, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
A user has inserted the claim that some scholars (?) claim that Dari is derives from Darra and that it developed out of Sogdian, Tocharian, and Parthian?!
Are there ANY reliable sources for the claim?!
Except for the first part of the claim (Darra --> Dari), all other parts are totally illogical and NO serious scholars would ever claim such a nonsense.
Sogdian did have small influences on Persian vocabulary, but deffinitly not on its grammar or structure. Today, Yaghnobi is the ONLY language belived to be a descendant of Sogdian. The Tocharian language was neither an Iranian nor an Indo-Iranian language. It was a totally different, mostly unknown branch of the Indo-European languages and had NO influence on Persian.
"Parthian" - meaning the original language of the early Parthians - was a distinct East-Iranian dialect. The Parthian kings of Persia spoke a WESTERN-Iranian dialect, closely related to Persian. Linking the Parthian language to Tocharian and Sogdian, and claiming that these 3 gave birth to modern Khorasanian dialects of Persian is pure nonsense.
Tājik 01:24, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
This article is far too complex and confusing. The entire history section needs to be rewritten for a much more general audience, and without the very lengthy and unencyclopedic discourse on the academic debate over the relative origins of Dari and Farsi.
May I suggest that, if this material is of great interest, it be moved to a page called something like "Controversy over the origins of Dari and Farsi", and linked to from this page? It would be far less offputting to the general user, but still available to those who need it. -- TinaSparkle 11:35, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
There is an awful lot of information in this article --- cultural, historical --- which may belong somewhere, but not here. I am a speaker of this kind of Persian, although my usage is admittedly rusty, and there are significant differences between this dialect and the better known type based on the speech of Tehran, differences in vocabulary usage, and also in pronunciation. The literary-style pronunciation of Kabuli Dari is perhaps the most conservative of all dialects of Farsi, yet there are no details here at all about that, nor about the differences and similarities to Tajik up to the north. The whole tone of this article is political, when it should be linguistic. Is politics really so much more exciting than linguistics? Jakob37 04:17, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
particularly Medians,eventually demolished by Alexander the Great. And also the Geographical origion of this language is not the residence area of Persians, situated in the South of "Iran" and locally named "FARS". The geographical origion of this language is the "Central Asia". That is why all pioneer poets of this language are from this area, mainly situated in Afghanistan, Uzbakistan and Tajikistan. The original speakers of this language,that speak it more perfectly than "Iranians", are called TAJIK. Therefore, "Persian" or "Farsi" is a wrong name for this language.
The researches of scholars, both Iranian and non-Iranians (Tajiks and Afghans), show that the Persian language (Farsi-Dari) developed in Central Asia (Transoxiana and Bactria) and then expanded towards the western regions. There's NO authentic source from old Persian literature books which support your claim (Persian developed in south-western Iran). If you say yes, then please show a single source from old Persian books for your claim. Ariana310 15:42, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I added the "accuracy is disputed" tag to the section. It is filled with either non-specialist or pseudo-scientific POV. Besides that, it uses wrong interpretations of historical sources, and it was even using a fake source! There are no references to modern scholars, and no references to Western scholars.
Even the claim that "Dari" has ANY relationship to Tokharian (which was not even an Iranian language and was much closer to the Germanic languages than to Indo-Iranian languages) is totally absurd and against ANY laws of comperative linguistics.
This section totally contradicts the articles "Dari" and "Languages of Afghanistan" in Encyclopaedia Iranica.
Tājik 18:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
کتیبه سرخ کوتل بغلان که در عصر اخلاف کنیشکا در سده دوم میلادی (۱۶٠ م) نوشته شده است همچنان واژه هایی دران آمده که شکل متحول زبان پارتی و نزدیک به زبان پارسی دری را مینماید. و از سوی دیگر ریشه واژه ها به اوستا میرسند؛ مثلاً مه = بزرگ , لیز = دژ , بگ لنگ = بغلان, شا = شاه, نامه برگ = نامور , کرد = کردن , ساختن ... پس از مطالعه دقیق کتیبه, مستشرقان اروپایی از قبیل هیننگ, ماریک, بنونست زبان کتیبه را باختری نامیدند. (۳۸) بقول ارانسکی بررسیهای مقدماتی نشان میدهد که زبان کتیبه یکی از زبانهای ایرانی شرقی بوده از سویی مشابهت به زبان سغدی, خوارزمی و پارتی دارد. (٣۹) معین گفته: زبان کوشانی یا بلخی عبارت است از زبان کتیبه سرخ کوتل بغلان, رباطک سمنگان و سنگ نبشته های اروزگان ؛ زبان این کتیبه ها که, به نامهای مختلف (باختری, بلخی تخاری, کوشانی) یاد شده با ورود فرهنگ اسلامی و ترویج خط عربی پارسی دری نامیده شد. (۴۰)
User:Jahangard asked me for the exact Persian quote of Jalal Matini. Here's the text:
زادگاه زبان و ادب فارسي خراسان و ماوراء النهر (فرارود) است.
A few lines later he says:
زبان فارسي، زبان مردم خراسان و ماوراء النهـر در قرن سوم و چهـارم هجـري، در طي هشت نـه قرن به سراسر ايران و سرزميـن هاي غـير ايراني، آناتولي، شبه قاره هـند، و بالکان و چـين، راه يافت.
He clearly says that the original region of Persian language (of course, he means New Persian or Farsi, and not Middle Persian or Pahlavi) is Khorasan and Fararod ( Transoxiana). Ariana310 10:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
* so-called Persian language is not related to the Persian Tribe who established the Persian Empire by the aid of some other tribes, eventually demolished by Alexander the Great. And also the Geographical origion of this language is not the residence area of Persians,situated in the South of "Iran" and locally named "FARS". The geographical origion of this language is the "Central Asia". That is why all pioneer poets of this language are from this area, mainly situated in Afghanistan, Uzbakistan and Tajikistan. he original speakers of this language,that speak it more perfectly than "Iranians", are called TAJIK. Therefore, "Persian" or "Farsi" is a wrong name for this language.
* Dari, Pahlavi and Farsi according to historical references were in existance at the same time. Therefore they are different languages and none of them is derived from the other. So naming "Pahlavi" as "old Farsi" is not correct.
Does the origin of the word Dari have anything to do with Darius the Great, who ruled over the area now known Iran and Afghanistan at one point? Duinemerwen 22:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I would like to make it very clear that Dari is the original Language and not farsi. Because of afghanistans situation in the world it does not have the power to change the history books .There is for a fact Errors and lots of them here in this article and anything taht has afghanistan in it as nothing is exactly clear. Both iranians, Americans, and jews write the history books. Of course they will be biase towards others. I would also like to stress that Dari is not a PERSIAN Language that is a Iranian, britsh imposed in the history books and afghanistan was not EAstern Persia that is a lie also. Persia was part of Aryana. We have not seen Any history books by our own afghans, so do not let foreigners do the research for us or believe there view because no one knows afghan better than they know themselves. Pashtun786 02:45, 16 March 2007 (UTC)pashtun786
Dari was a term introduced during Zahir's rule. We Persian Speakers have always called our language farsi not Dari. Dari is a term used for the persian language not only Afghanistan's dialect. most persian speakers speak dialects different than Kabuli. --Anoshirawan 04:38, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
The people of Afghanistan who speak Dari language chose to give it this name to show that they are not Farsiwans, which is a term used to describe Shia Farsi speakers. Dari speakers are Sunni, Farsi speakers are Shias. If you call Farsiwan (Farsi speaker) to anyone in Kabul, they will knock you out with a punch.-- Dilbar Jan 10:21, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Dari was introduced in the 1960s by the Pro Pashtun Zahir khan government to bring differences between Persian speakers in iran and Afghanistan. Dari is a synonymous term for Persian and it is not a Dialect. Afghanistanis in Afghanistan always used farsi and they still use farsi for their language and it is only in the government which they use dari and till today Pashtuns in the south use "farsiwan" for all Persian speakers not only Shias.--Anoshirawan 22:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoshirawan ( talk • contribs)
I advice you to Read articles written by Persian Professors and Persian researchers. There is no eastern Persian or western persian. Afghanistan has more than 1 dialect and dialects in western part of the country is much more closer to iranian dialects and dialects in the north is much more closer to Tajikistan's dialect. The dialect that is spoken in kabul is not Dari and has never been called dari and till today no Persian Professor or expert on this language has agreed that Dari = Kabuli accent.
--Anoshirawan 23:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
At several places in the article, it is stated that Dari (was the name of the) court language of Sassanids.
Literary New Persian is indeed called Dari and really has something to do with "court." But it is not the court of the Sassanids that is being referred to, but the court of Khorasan and Balkh. This was explicitely noted by al-Moqaffa (a.k.a. Rouzbeh) and by Moqaddasi (who said "court at Bukhara") but would be subsequently misunderstood as:
Well, thats how mistakes got made in olden times, but WP articles should not propagate them, and it certainly should never misquote to support a bias. That is really nasty.
--
Fullstop
16:58, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
This sentence is extremely convoluted:
It's the sort of thing which would only make sense if you knew the meaning already. 90.242.52.32 23:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
== Pashtun lies== people do not believe this pashtuns who are facists and nationalists. dari is a persian language just like how turkemen is turkish. this new farsi that is spoken in iran was not allways spoken by iranians their are many persian dialects. like pahlavi lori,,dari,mazandarani,gilaki,tylish,tati and thats just naming some. dari is pure persian even mo pure then the new farsi spoken by us iranians.
peace to my tajik,hazara,farsiwan persian brothers:D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.27.157 ( talk) 21:19, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
This sentence is extremely convoluted:
It's the sort of thing which would only make sense if you knew the meaning already. 90.242.52.32 23:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
== Pashtun lies== people do not believe this pashtuns who are facists and nationalists. dari is a persian language just like how turkemen is turkish. this new farsi that is spoken in iran was not allways spoken by iranians their are many persian dialects. like pahlavi lori,,dari,mazandarani,gilaki,tylish,tati and thats just naming some. dari is pure persian even mo pure then the new farsi spoken by us iranians.
peace to my tajik,hazara,farsiwan persian brothers:D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.27.157 ( talk) 21:19, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I am not a pashtoon but i dare say that you are not an afghan but a stupid treacher to the afghanistan's history. respect all the people living in afghanistan. we all know that without contribution of even one afghan tribe it is not possible to bring peace in the country. insulting or using bad words does not change anything. be polite and live as an afghan if you are.
Nilofar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.165.196.151 ( talk) 05:34, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Anoshirawan wrote on 25 October 2007 in an edit summary: "Whats Eastern and Western Persian lol..... In Afghanistan we have numerous dialects and most dialects spoken in the western parts of the country arte closer to the iranian dialects." Anoshirawan should look at the scholarly literature. It is true that the dialects spoken in western Afghanistan are close to the dialects spoken in western Iran, both are classified as Eastern Farsi. Eastern Farsi and Western Farsi are the terms that linguists, not necessarily native speakers, have determined analytically appropriately describe the major languages that cover the range of Persian dialects between Teheran and Kabul. See, for example, Decker, Kendall D. (1992) "Languages of Chitral" Sociolinguistic Survey of Northern Pakistan, 5 National Institute of Pakistan Studies, Quaid-i-Azam University and Summer Institute of Linguistics, Islamabad, xxii, 257 p. In addition there are eight (8) other Persian languages that are currently spoken, some only by isolated elements removed from the Tajikistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan-Iran corridor. The Persian language sub-group is divided by linguists into the following languages:
Each of these has in addition a number of dialects that have been recognized. Just for example, Aimaq has had the following dialects identified: Taimuri (Teimuri, Timuri or Taimouri), Taimani, Zohri (Zuri), Jamshidi (Jamshedi, Djamchidi, Yemchidi or Dzhemshid), Firozkohi, Maliki, Mizmast, Chinghizi, and Zainal. -- Bejnar 19:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Parsi is a term primarily used for the Iranian language spoken in northern India. See Parsi a language of India It is an Iranian language, as is Persian, but Parsi is part of the northwestern branch while the Persian sub-group of languages is in the southwestern branch. see "Language Family Trees: Indo-European, Indo-Iranian, Iranian, Western" Dari, the official language of Afghanistan, is Eastern Farsi (Eastern Persian), or a subset of the the Persian language group, and thus is only distantly related to Parsi. See "Language Family Trees: Indo-European, Indo-Iranian, Iranian, Western, Southwestern, Persian" See also the Ethnologue report for Afghanistan at Languages of Afghanistan. Now there is another language called Parsi-Dari, which is spoken in Iran and Afghanistan that is also in the northwestern branch of the Iranian languages and diverged from Parsi some 600 to 700 years ago or more. See "Parsi-Dari". It is this language that is spoken by the Zorasterians and is sometimes confused with Dari because of the name. -- Bejnar 14:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Afghanistan has numerous dialects, which one is Dari lol.--Anoshirawan 23:52, 26 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoshirawan ( talk • contribs)
open the site with Internet Explorer, Plus here is an interview I found from youtube:
Dr Latif Nazemi is a Persian writer and he explains in this interview with Asmaii Radio that Dari and Parsi are synonymous. http://youtube.com/watch?v=y-5fGRlRM70 --Anoshirawan 04:52, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Farsi in Afghanistan and Iran are not different. The word "Dari" in Afghanistan was introduced in the 1960s before that everyone used farsi or parsi and they still do. Without knowing the Persian language you cannot start claiming this and that. --Anoshirawan 06:21, 10 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoshirawan ( talk • contribs)
Parsi is the correct name for the Persian language. Arabs because they didnt have "Peh" in their language changed it to farsi but most scholars still refer this language as Parsi not farsi. --Anoshirawan 22:46, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Relation of Daric coin and Dari Persian language was original research. Behaafarid 23:39, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Reverted the article right now to Bejnar's better founded argumentation. During the last month, Anoshirawan and Bejnar had an edit war on the question wether Dari was just a dialect or a language. They had countless reverts from this here to that one (and maybe even earlier, but I didn't have the nerve to check). Apart from this question being linguistically problematic, please try to avoid edit wars - if not, admins may start to block you. Makes you appear less trustworthy as Wiki-contributors in the long run. Take a deep breath plus a look at WP:EDITWAR, WP:3R and dialect, and try to find a compromise formula. Thanks! -- Kavaiyan <°)))o>< 00:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Should this article have the name Dari (Afghanistan) because Dari is the official name of this language in Afghanistan, or should this article be named Eastern Farsi which is the name given by linguists (in English) for this language? Does the fact that Dari may be used to refer to a number of other languages, both spoken and written, weigh in here at all? -- Bejnar 17:10, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
I think this article should be moved to Dari (Persian) since Dari is another name for the Persian language. the preceding unsigned comment was left by 65.93.211.223 Talk on 24 November 2007 at 01:54 (UCT)
Dari is not Eastern Farsi lol. Dari has always been a synonymous to Parsi. Dari IS NOT A DIALECT!
--Anoshirawan 07:31, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that Wikipedia policy would prohibit moving an article to a new name when the issue was under discussion on the talk page and no consensus had been achieved, absent an overriding problem like trademark or copyright violation. So, Anoshirawan's moving this article to Dari (Persian) on 24 November 2007, was inappropriate, at best. I would appreciate it if he would move it back, pending further discussion. -- Bejnar ( talk) 01:54, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
A. Request for comments on what is the best title for this article:
like Ariana said Dari is a synonymous term for Parsi or Farsi. for example, Ferdousi in his Shahnama uses Parsi,Dari, and Parsi Dari for his language. Hafez uses both terms(Dari and Parsi) for his language. This Article shouldnt be based on Afghanistan only because the word "Dari" belongs to all Persian-Speakers.--Anoshirawan 08:30, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
B. Statements about the relation between "Dari (Afghanistan)" [old name] and the language known as "Parsi".
I have been asked to add a neutral opinion, as an admin uninvolved in the naming dispute. While it seems to me that both "Dari (Afghanistan)" and "Dari (Persian)" make sense as names to some extent, a glance at the "Dari" disambiguation page makes it clear that the latter title could be misleading, as Dari Persian is a name used for literary Old Persian. As such, it is not suitable for a name for this page. If Dari is synonymous with Eastern Farsi, then calling the name "Dari (Eastern Farsi)" makes sense. Similarly, if it is the official name for the variety of Persian spoken in Afghanistan, then "Dari (Afghanistan)" makes sense. Either of those names is more acceptable than the current name, from a purely Wikipedian standpoint - the question remains as to whether there are enough references to support either of those names as a correct and accurate description of the language.
I hope that helps - if not, I'd suggest contacting one or more of the editors at Wikipedia:Third opinion for further outside input. Grutness... wha? 04:07, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Move Dari (Persian) to Dari and Dari to Dari (disambiguation). The modern language of Afghanistan is the primary topic. — AjaxSmack 14:48, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Most Classical Persian Poets who used Dari were from Western Iran:
Dari from the view point of Poets Ferdawsi Tusi, writes in Shahnama: کجا بیور از پهـــلوانی شمار بود در زبان دری صد هزار
به تازی همی بود تا گاه نصـر بدانگه که شد در جهان شاه نصر
بفرمـــــــــــود تا پارسی دری نبشتند و کوتاه شــــــــــد داوری
Sozani, another poet, says: صفات روی او آسان بود مرا گفتن گهی به لفظ دری و گهی به شعر دری
Nizami Ganjawi, one of the greatest poets of Dari, says: نظامی که نظم دری کار او اســت دری نظم کردن سزاوار او اســــــت هزار بلبل دستانسرای عاشـــق را بباید از تو سخن گفتن دری آموخت
Sanayee, the great Sufi and poet of Ghaznavid period says: شکر لله که ترا یافتم ای بحر ســـخا از تو صفت زمن اشعار به الفاظ دری
Sadi Sherazi, one of the ever greatest poets, says: هزار بلبل دستان سرای عاشق را بباید از تو سخن گفتن دری آموخت
Hafiz Sherazi, known as Bulbul-e Sheraz, says: ز شعر دلکش حافظ کسی شود آگاه که لطف طبع و سخن گفتن دری دان--Anoshirawan 03:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Recently (27 & 29 November 2007) in edits to this article, both Ariana310 and Anoshirawan have used Gabri to refer to one or more languages (or ethnolects) of Zoroastrian remnants in Iran. It has come to my attention that Gabri is a derogatory term in Iran for these languages. See [Ethnologue report for language code:gbz" which says Many Zoroastrians speak Parsi-Dari and do not know Zoroastrian Dari. "Gabri", "Gabar" and "Yazdi" are derogatory names. It is better to use scholarly, non-derogatory names for languages. -- Bejnar ( talk) 18:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Merge with Persian. Ethnologue is not a scientific source. It is run by Christian missionaries. Afghan Persian has several dialects of its own and the dialect of Herat is almost the same as that of Mash-had. We do not distinguish languages by its dialect. Tajiki, Dari, Persian are all the same language and Persian readers can read Persian publication from any of these languages. -- alidoostzadeh ( talk) 02:34, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I commented out this reference. It was supposed to back up:
"Modern Dari Persian is a major language of Afghanistan, and is spoken in the northern and western parts, and the capital, Kabul, in the east. Approximately 70% of the population of Afghanistan are native speakers."
When I checked that reference I found it didn't support the assertions it was supposed to back up, at all.
It says Pashto: "...is the native tongue of 50 to 55 percent of Afghans;"
It says Persian is: "...The native tongue of twenty five percent of the population." -- although it also says: "...it is the most commonly spoken language in Afghanistan"(!)
Finally, it says: "Dari must not be confused with Kabol, the dialect of Kabul."
I think what this reference is trying to say, is that, even though 50 to 55 percent of Afghans are native speakers of Pashto, since it also claims only another 10 percent speak it as a second language, while a greater percentage of citizens can speak a dialect of Persian, and, by this reasoning, states more people speak Persian than Pashto.
FWIW, the Pashto article claims 15 million speakers in Afghanistan. It cites the CIA factbook, which also doesn't back up its claims. The CIA says:
"Afghan Persian or Dari (official) 50%, Pashto (official) 35%, Turkic languages (primarily Uzbek and Turkmen) 11%, 30 minor languages (primarily Balochi and Pashai) 4%, much bilingualism."
Cheers! Geo Swan ( talk) 05:38, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
This page should be merged with New Persian.
This is what Professor. Gilbert Lazard, a famous Iranologist and also the writer of Persian grammer states: "The language known as New Persian, which usually called at this period by the name of Dari or Parsi-Dari,can be classified linguistically as a continuation of Middle Persian, the official religious and literary language of Sassanian Iran, itself a continuation of Old Persian, the language of the Achaemenids. Unlike the other languages and dialects, ancient and modern, of the Iranian group such as Avestan, Parthian, Soghdian, Kurdish, Pashto, etc., Old Middle and New Persian represent one and the same language at three states of its history. it had its origin in Fars (the true Persian country from the historical point of view and is differentiated by dialectical features, still easily recognizable from the dialect prevailing in north-western and eastern Iran".(Lazard, Gilbert 1975, “The Rise of the New Persian Language” in Frye, R. N., The Cambridge History of Iran, Vol. 4, pp. 595-632, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.). Mohammad Taqi Bahar is a great poet and scholar, but he is definitely superseded by Gilbert Lazard who had a more formal academic training, is a more modern source and has written many books on Persian grammer and the origin of Parsi-Dari.
Ethnologue is a missionary, non-scholarly, non Ph.D. amateur site with lots of false and invalid information. I have e-mailed them on different issue another time, where they made major mistakes on population characteristics and they thanked me for pointing it out. Such an amateurish site should not be used in Wikipedia. Yes Persian has dialect variations say from Tehran, to Esfahan to Mashhad to Herat and etc. For example the dialect of Herat and Mashhad are closer to each other, than Herat and Badakhshan. But these could be mentioned in the same page of New Persian. So far the content of this page are nothing but OR. Some very poor OR, for example relating the Dardic coin of Darius to to Parsi-Dari language.-- alidoostzadeh ( talk) 01:49, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Its no mystery that there are alot of Iranians and Pro iranians Writing the history of afghanistan to there own agendas and Its a shame that Dari is called a PERSIAN LANGUAGE when it should be called in an Afghani Language. Tell us what you think? Pashtun786 ( talk) 01:36, 26 January 2008 (UTC)Pashtun786
According to dictionaries and encyclopedias and all scholarly sources, Afghani language =
Pashto. You are just another Afghan nationalist expressing your extreme POVs.
Afghani from Princeton's WordNet: S: (n) Pashto, Pashtu, Paxto, Afghani, Afghan (an Iranian language spoken in Afghanistan and Pakistan; the official language of Afghanistan) DurraniPashtun ( talk) 17:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Dari Persian | |
---|---|
دری | |
Native to | Afghanistan |
Region | Middle East, Central Asia |
Official status | |
Official language in | ![]() |
Regulated by | Academy of Sciences of Afghanistan |
Language codes | |
ISO 639-3 |
prs |
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Dari, also known as Farsi, is apparently similar in syntax to Farsi.
That is confusing.
According to
http://www.darilanguageproject.org/2003_summary_of_findings.pdf, Dari the language of the Zoroastrians (not Persian?), as well as the Afghani dialect of Persian. Here too, there appears to be some confusion. At,
http://www.persiangulfonline.org/aboutus/letters/SoroushRichardShehabi.htm, Soroush Richard Shehabi claims that Afghani's actually speak Farsi which is really just Persian. I just don't get it
There are in fact two Dari languages. (1) The variety of Persian spoken in Afghanistan, which is mutually intelligible with Farsi. (2) The Northwestern Iranian language spoken by the Zoroastrians of Yazd, Iran (also called Gabri). See: www.darilanguageproject.org.
It is a common mistake to make. Afghanistan's major language is Pashto. The reason why people think that its farsi is due to the pashtoon's being the poorer ethnicity, and thus not having as much power as the dari speakers.
http://www.sabawoon.com/afghanpedia/Language.Dari.shtm
You can see in that link that dair is spoken by only around 30% of the country, not the 60% shown in this wikipedia entry.
Dari is only spoken in north afghanistan all together about 30%, but pashto is spken by more then 70% afghans all around afghanistan, because in every part of afghanistan in evrywhere provinces included the main place of DARI speakers KAbul and panjshir still their are more then 40% pashtoon in every province of dari spoken but in other part they all speak pashtoo, even though you wouldn't find a single person in whole city who understand DARI, and its a fact.
Pashtoo is spken by more than 70% afghans in Afghanistan
Regarding the informations written about Dari in this article, I have some points to declare:
- Dari is not a dialect of Farsi (Persian) language of Iran
- Dari was not developed from Pahlawi Sasani as Farsi developped. In fact, Dari developed from Takhari, Partawi (Pahlawi Ashkani) and Soghdi languages
- Dari is a completely different language other than Gabri or Dari of Iran. Gabri or Dari of Iran is a dialect of Farsi, and there are major differences between them i.e. Vocabulary usage, Expressions, Dialect or accent, Writing style, etc. It would be illogical to refer Dari spoken in Afghanistan to the Dari/ Gabri of Iran.
- Dari itself has its own dialects i.e. Kabuli, Herawi/Herati, Takhari and Badakhshi.
- Dari was not distinguished because of the political means of the Pashtoon Government in Afghanistan. In fact, the researches taken out by great Tajik Afghan writers, historians, scholars and researchers proved that Dari developped from Takhari, Partawi and Soghdi languages.
In order to support my statements, here I cite some pieces of texts of old Farsi-Dari literature books:
- Some Manuscript writings on a stone found in one of the Kushanian Temples in Baghlan (a city in Afghanistan) in 1951 show that Dari developped from Takhari language. There are almost 160 words in 25 lines of Takhari language written in the Greek transcripts. In these manuscripts which are more than 1800 years old, one can clearly see the familiarities of Dari and Takhari languages. So it completely shows that Dari was NOT developped from Pahlawi Sasani as Farsi did.
- Mohammad Taqi Bahar, the great poet and writer of Iran, writes in his book "Sabk-Shunasi", vol.1: “...some people say that Dari is a developed dialect of Sughdi language, that the people of Bukhara, Samarqand and regions of Jaihun (Amu) river used to communicate in it for a long time. And some people, relying on the statements of Abdullah ibn-Muqaffa say that Dari was the language of cities and courts, and it was the softest and the most fluent language of the Sasanid period, and it contained mostly the eastern words, especially Balkhi words.” He then continues and gives his own point of view: “As after the coming of Islam, the people of Bukhara and Samarqand wrote many books in Dari, and the poets of Khorasan (Afghanistan) narrated poems in this language, so Dari came step by step from Khorasan to Iran. I can say as a conclusion that Dari is the language of Balkh and Bukhara.”
- Abdullah ibn Muqaffa writes in his book “Al-Fehrest” (378 JC) that: “Pahlawi (the old Farsi) refers to Pahla, the language of Five cities: Esfahan, Ray, Hamadan, Mah Nawand and Azerbaijan. But Dari was the language of citizens (people of cities) and people in the kings’ courts used to speak in Dari. It is the language of Khorasan people and the East, mostly that of the people of Balkh (a city in the north of Afghanistan). While Farsi was the language of religious people, by which the people of Pars (Iran) communicated.”
I suggest that one should not rely only on the researches of recent Iranian writers. He/she should study the works and researches of Afghan Historians and Writers as well, so that he could well analyze a point. I can provide further Bibliography and Sources, if one was interested.
The developement of the Iranian languages is well-researched and well-documented. Today's "Dari" in Afghanistan is only the Eastern dialect of Farsi and has Western-Iranian origins (even though the dialect itself emerged in Eastern Iran). I do not know what language "Takhari" is, but if you are talking about Tocharian language, the language was not even Iranic and its recostruction is difficult (in other words: we do not know much about that language). The Sogdian language was an Eastern-Iranian language and totally different from "Dari" in grammar and vocabulary, although some Sogdian words have survived in modern Persian. The only living offspring of Sogdian is the Yaghnobi language - an Eastern-Iranian language, much closer to Pashto than to "Dari".
Khoob! Pesh e jaananeh e maa kishmish o pumbdaaneh yakeist! What language did Amir Khusrau of Delhi use whose poetry took Iran, Turkey and Mawrannahar by storm in the 13th century? Dari or Parsi? Besides what does Hafiz Shirazi refer to in his line "Taa khwajeh mei khurad beghazalha e pahlavi"? Did Hafiz write in a different language sitting in Ruknaabad, Shiraz thousands of miles away from Delhi where Khusrau had written his poetry? 59.176.37.39 06:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)Lutfullah
The new article posted about the Dari language contains lots of contradictions and lots of incorrect information. It seems to me that the writer is backed by his personal views of todays political situations between Afghanistan and Iran.
Here are my comments:
1. In the section of History, the 2nd paragraph, the author says that there's no difference between Aryan, Iranian and Persian. However, Persian is a mixed
Elam-
Aryan civilisation, while Aryan and Iranian can be considered the same. Iran, the current country, was always known as
Persia or Fârs. It was in 1935 that Reza Shah Pahlawi changed the name of Persia to Iran, by the support of Nazi regime in Germany.
Ariana or Aryana is general name used for all the regions of Transoxiana (Tajikistan, Uzbekistan), Persia (Iran), Khorasan (Afghanistan) and parts of Pakistan (northern parts of Sindh river). By changing the name of Persia to Iran, it doesn't make it to become the same Great and Ancient Ariana, however today's Iran is part of the Great Ariana, as Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan are parts of Ariana. No matter the word "Iran" was initially used during the
Sassanids.
2. In the section of History, 3rd paragraph (Persian originated in Persis) and 5th paragraph (Dari, a spoken language of Parthia..... Dari spread to the east and Transoxiana regions). This is the bigest error and incorrect information posted.
In fact, the Persian language (if we consider it both as Farsi and Dari) originated and developed in Transoxiana (north of Oxus river) and Khorasan (the old Afghanistan regions), and then emerged to the west, to Persia (Iran) during or just before the Sasanids. And during the ruling of Parthians, it was Aramaic, Pahlavi and Parthi/Parti languages common in Persia, NOT Dari. Here are the sources from both Iranian and Afghan historians and researchers:
- “The language of Dari has almost a two thousand-year-old history. It came into being in Khorasan before the Islamic period. It was at first the native language of Khorasanis (people of Khorasan) and then extended to the west (modern Iran). ” History of Afghanistan’s Literature, Moh. Haidar Zhobl, Maiwand Publications, 1379 Peshawar (p.22)
- “Dari emerged for the first time in the East (Khorasan), while at that time the language of Persians (Iranians) was Pahlawi. At that period in Iran, all religious and scientific works were written in Pahlawi, even the poems that were narrated in Iran, Hamadan, Azerbaijan and Tabaristan (today Mazandaran) were in Pahlawi and Tabari languages. However, all old Farsi poems which were narrated in Khorasan by Hanzala Badgheesi, Mohammad Sakazi and Busam-gurd Khareji were written in fluent Dari language.” Ariana Encyclopaedia (Vol.5), Encyclopaedia Association of Afghanistan, 1348 Kabul (p.400)
- “Until the fourth Hijri century (9th BCE), Dari was associated uniquely to Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana and it was not common in Iran, even a single poem or book was not found to be written in Dari in Iran.” [History of Afghanistan’s Literature, Moh. Haidar Zhobl, Maiwand Publications, 1379 Peshawar (p.24)] “…and after the 5th Hijri century, Dari extended to the Persian territories.” [“Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana; the region of Dari’s emergence”, Mr. Kawyani, Khawaran.com website]
- Dr. Said Nafisi, professor in the University of Tehran, writes: “According to some very clear proofs, it is evident that Dari came into being in Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana, and then extended to the Iranian regions, which were not its local territories.” (Reporting from: “Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana; the region of Dari’s emergence”, Mr. Kawyani, Khawaran.com website)
- According to Prof. Shahrestani, Dari was formed during the rule of Behman Ibn-e Espandyar, one of the Kavi (Persian: Kayani) Kings in Balkh, who ruled probably before the Common Era. In several old books, it is mentioned that “At the period of Behman’s ruling, son of Espandyar, people came from different regions to his court and did not understand each others’ languages. Therefore, he ordered the scholars to make a fluent Farsi language, and named it Dari.”
- Mohammad Taqi Bahar, famous Iranian Poet, writes in his book Sabk Shunasi (Vol.1): “Some people say that Dari is the same old Persian, others say that Dari is a dialect of the Soghdi language common in the north of Amu Darya and Samarqand. While others relying on the statements of Abdullah ibn-e Muqaffa believe that Dari was the language of the Capital [city]. It was the most fluent language of the Sassanid period and contained a large number of Eastern words, especially those of Balkh.” He then continues and admits that: “As the people of Samarqand and Bukhara (regions in Tajikistan and Uzbekistan) wrote text and poetry books in Dari after Islam and the poets of Khorasan (Afghanistan) also narrated their poems in this language, Dari came step by step from Khorasan to Iran. I can say as a conclusion that Dari is the language of the people of Bukhara and Balkh.”
- Mr. Jalal Matini, chief editor of the magazine "Iran-Shenasi" and former director of Mashad's University in Iran, writes: "The original teritory of Persian is Transoxiana..... Persian was the language of Transoxiana (Tajikistan and Uzbekistan) and Khorasan (the old Afghanistan) in the 3rd and 4th Hijri centuries. It then emerged to Iran and Indian subcontenent during 8 and 9 centuries." (Iranshenasi Magazine, Number 2, Year 2002, Iranshenasi.net)
So according to all Iranian and Afghan scholars, Persian (Farsi or Dari) came into existence in Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana almost 2000 years ago and then migrated to the west, to Persia.
3. In the section of History, 4th paragaraph, a great error in reporting the statements of Abdullah ibn Muqaffa. According to this article, Abdullah ibn-Muqaffa pronounced Dari as the main language of Fahla, which is reported totally incorrect. It was
Pahlavi the language of Pahla, not Dari.
Here's the statements of Abdullah ibn Muqaffa in his book Al-Fehrest: “Pahlawi (old Farsi) refers to Pahla, which is the name of five cities: Esfahan, Ray, Hamadan, Mah Nawand and Azerbaijan. But Dari is the language of citizens and that of Court (King’s court). It is one of the languages of Khorasan (the old Afghanistan) and eastern regions; the language style of Balkh (city in northern Afghanistan) has more influence on it. While Parsi (Farsi) is the language of Zoroastrian religious leaders, and the people of Persia (Iran) spoke in this language.” Here's the source: "History of the Philosophical sciences of Iran" (tarikh wa uloom-e falsafa-e irani), Abdul Rafi Haqiqat, Komash Publications, 1372 Tehran, page 39
There are other incorrect information posted about Arabic's influence on Dari and Farsi, as well as about the origin of the Dari language. For a detailed information, please
CHECK THIS
It has been the third time that the External Link which I add to the main page of the article is being removed by the user named User:Tajik. He wrote in the comments that the link did not work, however there is neither any problem with the link, nor any violation with the copyright. The main article posted about Dari contains lots of incorrect and inaccurate information, so I did not try to modify it. However, I provided that link under the External Links area. It would be better to defend his point of views in here, in discussion, instead of removing the link. Thank you
I would suggest that in the first step the errors that are present in the current article should or even must be corrected. I pointed out the main and principle errors in this discussion [Dari developed in Persia and emerged to the east to Khorasan and Transoxiana; Dari was spoken during the Parthians; Dari was the language of Fahla... I wonder how do you call it an authentic information] and there is no doubt that the article is written in favour of personal interests for Iran.
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Guys i read all the articles about our language. it is really a pity that in a war torn country we are wasting our time for the things which are not worthed. Dari is derived from a indo European languanged but comes under Soghdi loanguages. Soghdi language has two branches Pahlawi Sasani and Pahlawi Ashkani. From Pahlawi ashknai the dari language is formed and the Pahlawi sasani the Persian language of iran.
It is obvious from its dialect, grammar and some words. For example KACHALO= SAIB ZAMINI 2- BADANJAN ROMI= GOJA FARANGI 3- BADRANG= KHEYAR and other thousands words.
People like Rahnaward Zaryad or Latif Pidraf whom they called themselves Afghanistani instead of Afghan are trying to diverge our country are trying to implement such malicious schemes.
Instead of making words and disputes over this little issue raise and help your country to have roads, city power and infrastructure.
happy reading Nilofa Kabul Novembe 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.165.196.151 ( talk) 07:11, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
The main article has become much more accurate. However, there exists only one major contradition which needs to be modified. Here, I am pointing out that point:
1. First let me copy the Persian translated text of Ibn-Muqaffa: پهلوی منسوب است به پهله که نام پنچ شهر است: اصفهان، ری، همدان، ماه نهاوند و آذربایجان. و اما دری زبان شهر نشینان بود و درباریان با آن سخن می گفتند و منسوب به دربار پادشاهی است و از میان زبان های اهل خراسان و مشرق، زبان مردم بلخ در آن بیشتر بود. اما پارسی، زبان مؤیدان (روحانیون زردتشتی) بود که در پارس مردم به آن دین معتقد بودند
So, Pahlavi the language of Pahla (Medes), Dari the language of Court and the Citizens of Khorasan (eastern Persia), and Parsi the language of Mobidan (Zoroastrian religious) in Persia. But in the article it has been written: "In everyday conversation Dari was used and Parsi was the written and scholarly language"......"The spoken language of Dari however remained intact." I think this point is in contradicion both with the statements of Muqaffa and with the contents of the main article i.e. "Dari is the language of the Sassanids Court and the official Zoroastrian priesthood language."......"Dari emerged as the spoken language of Persian courts of Sassanids." But in fact:
2. Not only Parsi/Farsi got affected by Arabic, but Dari did either. Both Farsi and Dari contain equal combination of Arabic vocabulary. The reason that Dari reserved its pure and original language style and structure, is that in the recent times Dari speaking people (Khorasanis) did not have any direct interaction with other foreign languages, which was because of the Political situations in Afghanistan. (Although the language of Tajikistan severly got affected) As for Farsi, it was influenced by European languages, mainly by French, especially after the Qajar Dyanasty and mostly remarkably during the Pahlavi dynasty. And in the recent years, Dari is suffering from an important impression of Foreing languages. So by saying "Arabic slowly influence Farsi and Dari remained intact" is incorrect according to me.
What is your opinion Tājik? This (the 1st point) is the only major contradiction, according to me. I just wanted to make a confirmation and if you are agree, I will make some modifications (not any major modification) and then you can verify. And if you are not agree, then what are the sources that you are relying on? Ariana310 12:17, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
A user has inserted the claim that some scholars (?) claim that Dari is derives from Darra and that it developed out of Sogdian, Tocharian, and Parthian?!
Are there ANY reliable sources for the claim?!
Except for the first part of the claim (Darra --> Dari), all other parts are totally illogical and NO serious scholars would ever claim such a nonsense.
Sogdian did have small influences on Persian vocabulary, but deffinitly not on its grammar or structure. Today, Yaghnobi is the ONLY language belived to be a descendant of Sogdian. The Tocharian language was neither an Iranian nor an Indo-Iranian language. It was a totally different, mostly unknown branch of the Indo-European languages and had NO influence on Persian.
"Parthian" - meaning the original language of the early Parthians - was a distinct East-Iranian dialect. The Parthian kings of Persia spoke a WESTERN-Iranian dialect, closely related to Persian. Linking the Parthian language to Tocharian and Sogdian, and claiming that these 3 gave birth to modern Khorasanian dialects of Persian is pure nonsense.
Tājik 01:24, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
This article is far too complex and confusing. The entire history section needs to be rewritten for a much more general audience, and without the very lengthy and unencyclopedic discourse on the academic debate over the relative origins of Dari and Farsi.
May I suggest that, if this material is of great interest, it be moved to a page called something like "Controversy over the origins of Dari and Farsi", and linked to from this page? It would be far less offputting to the general user, but still available to those who need it. -- TinaSparkle 11:35, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
There is an awful lot of information in this article --- cultural, historical --- which may belong somewhere, but not here. I am a speaker of this kind of Persian, although my usage is admittedly rusty, and there are significant differences between this dialect and the better known type based on the speech of Tehran, differences in vocabulary usage, and also in pronunciation. The literary-style pronunciation of Kabuli Dari is perhaps the most conservative of all dialects of Farsi, yet there are no details here at all about that, nor about the differences and similarities to Tajik up to the north. The whole tone of this article is political, when it should be linguistic. Is politics really so much more exciting than linguistics? Jakob37 04:17, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
particularly Medians,eventually demolished by Alexander the Great. And also the Geographical origion of this language is not the residence area of Persians, situated in the South of "Iran" and locally named "FARS". The geographical origion of this language is the "Central Asia". That is why all pioneer poets of this language are from this area, mainly situated in Afghanistan, Uzbakistan and Tajikistan. The original speakers of this language,that speak it more perfectly than "Iranians", are called TAJIK. Therefore, "Persian" or "Farsi" is a wrong name for this language.
The researches of scholars, both Iranian and non-Iranians (Tajiks and Afghans), show that the Persian language (Farsi-Dari) developed in Central Asia (Transoxiana and Bactria) and then expanded towards the western regions. There's NO authentic source from old Persian literature books which support your claim (Persian developed in south-western Iran). If you say yes, then please show a single source from old Persian books for your claim. Ariana310 15:42, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I added the "accuracy is disputed" tag to the section. It is filled with either non-specialist or pseudo-scientific POV. Besides that, it uses wrong interpretations of historical sources, and it was even using a fake source! There are no references to modern scholars, and no references to Western scholars.
Even the claim that "Dari" has ANY relationship to Tokharian (which was not even an Iranian language and was much closer to the Germanic languages than to Indo-Iranian languages) is totally absurd and against ANY laws of comperative linguistics.
This section totally contradicts the articles "Dari" and "Languages of Afghanistan" in Encyclopaedia Iranica.
Tājik 18:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
کتیبه سرخ کوتل بغلان که در عصر اخلاف کنیشکا در سده دوم میلادی (۱۶٠ م) نوشته شده است همچنان واژه هایی دران آمده که شکل متحول زبان پارتی و نزدیک به زبان پارسی دری را مینماید. و از سوی دیگر ریشه واژه ها به اوستا میرسند؛ مثلاً مه = بزرگ , لیز = دژ , بگ لنگ = بغلان, شا = شاه, نامه برگ = نامور , کرد = کردن , ساختن ... پس از مطالعه دقیق کتیبه, مستشرقان اروپایی از قبیل هیننگ, ماریک, بنونست زبان کتیبه را باختری نامیدند. (۳۸) بقول ارانسکی بررسیهای مقدماتی نشان میدهد که زبان کتیبه یکی از زبانهای ایرانی شرقی بوده از سویی مشابهت به زبان سغدی, خوارزمی و پارتی دارد. (٣۹) معین گفته: زبان کوشانی یا بلخی عبارت است از زبان کتیبه سرخ کوتل بغلان, رباطک سمنگان و سنگ نبشته های اروزگان ؛ زبان این کتیبه ها که, به نامهای مختلف (باختری, بلخی تخاری, کوشانی) یاد شده با ورود فرهنگ اسلامی و ترویج خط عربی پارسی دری نامیده شد. (۴۰)
User:Jahangard asked me for the exact Persian quote of Jalal Matini. Here's the text:
زادگاه زبان و ادب فارسي خراسان و ماوراء النهر (فرارود) است.
A few lines later he says:
زبان فارسي، زبان مردم خراسان و ماوراء النهـر در قرن سوم و چهـارم هجـري، در طي هشت نـه قرن به سراسر ايران و سرزميـن هاي غـير ايراني، آناتولي، شبه قاره هـند، و بالکان و چـين، راه يافت.
He clearly says that the original region of Persian language (of course, he means New Persian or Farsi, and not Middle Persian or Pahlavi) is Khorasan and Fararod ( Transoxiana). Ariana310 10:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
* so-called Persian language is not related to the Persian Tribe who established the Persian Empire by the aid of some other tribes, eventually demolished by Alexander the Great. And also the Geographical origion of this language is not the residence area of Persians,situated in the South of "Iran" and locally named "FARS". The geographical origion of this language is the "Central Asia". That is why all pioneer poets of this language are from this area, mainly situated in Afghanistan, Uzbakistan and Tajikistan. he original speakers of this language,that speak it more perfectly than "Iranians", are called TAJIK. Therefore, "Persian" or "Farsi" is a wrong name for this language.
* Dari, Pahlavi and Farsi according to historical references were in existance at the same time. Therefore they are different languages and none of them is derived from the other. So naming "Pahlavi" as "old Farsi" is not correct.
Does the origin of the word Dari have anything to do with Darius the Great, who ruled over the area now known Iran and Afghanistan at one point? Duinemerwen 22:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I would like to make it very clear that Dari is the original Language and not farsi. Because of afghanistans situation in the world it does not have the power to change the history books .There is for a fact Errors and lots of them here in this article and anything taht has afghanistan in it as nothing is exactly clear. Both iranians, Americans, and jews write the history books. Of course they will be biase towards others. I would also like to stress that Dari is not a PERSIAN Language that is a Iranian, britsh imposed in the history books and afghanistan was not EAstern Persia that is a lie also. Persia was part of Aryana. We have not seen Any history books by our own afghans, so do not let foreigners do the research for us or believe there view because no one knows afghan better than they know themselves. Pashtun786 02:45, 16 March 2007 (UTC)pashtun786
Dari was a term introduced during Zahir's rule. We Persian Speakers have always called our language farsi not Dari. Dari is a term used for the persian language not only Afghanistan's dialect. most persian speakers speak dialects different than Kabuli. --Anoshirawan 04:38, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
The people of Afghanistan who speak Dari language chose to give it this name to show that they are not Farsiwans, which is a term used to describe Shia Farsi speakers. Dari speakers are Sunni, Farsi speakers are Shias. If you call Farsiwan (Farsi speaker) to anyone in Kabul, they will knock you out with a punch.-- Dilbar Jan 10:21, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Dari was introduced in the 1960s by the Pro Pashtun Zahir khan government to bring differences between Persian speakers in iran and Afghanistan. Dari is a synonymous term for Persian and it is not a Dialect. Afghanistanis in Afghanistan always used farsi and they still use farsi for their language and it is only in the government which they use dari and till today Pashtuns in the south use "farsiwan" for all Persian speakers not only Shias.--Anoshirawan 22:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoshirawan ( talk • contribs)
I advice you to Read articles written by Persian Professors and Persian researchers. There is no eastern Persian or western persian. Afghanistan has more than 1 dialect and dialects in western part of the country is much more closer to iranian dialects and dialects in the north is much more closer to Tajikistan's dialect. The dialect that is spoken in kabul is not Dari and has never been called dari and till today no Persian Professor or expert on this language has agreed that Dari = Kabuli accent.
--Anoshirawan 23:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
At several places in the article, it is stated that Dari (was the name of the) court language of Sassanids.
Literary New Persian is indeed called Dari and really has something to do with "court." But it is not the court of the Sassanids that is being referred to, but the court of Khorasan and Balkh. This was explicitely noted by al-Moqaffa (a.k.a. Rouzbeh) and by Moqaddasi (who said "court at Bukhara") but would be subsequently misunderstood as:
Well, thats how mistakes got made in olden times, but WP articles should not propagate them, and it certainly should never misquote to support a bias. That is really nasty.
--
Fullstop
16:58, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
This sentence is extremely convoluted:
It's the sort of thing which would only make sense if you knew the meaning already. 90.242.52.32 23:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
== Pashtun lies== people do not believe this pashtuns who are facists and nationalists. dari is a persian language just like how turkemen is turkish. this new farsi that is spoken in iran was not allways spoken by iranians their are many persian dialects. like pahlavi lori,,dari,mazandarani,gilaki,tylish,tati and thats just naming some. dari is pure persian even mo pure then the new farsi spoken by us iranians.
peace to my tajik,hazara,farsiwan persian brothers:D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.27.157 ( talk) 21:19, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
This sentence is extremely convoluted:
It's the sort of thing which would only make sense if you knew the meaning already. 90.242.52.32 23:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
== Pashtun lies== people do not believe this pashtuns who are facists and nationalists. dari is a persian language just like how turkemen is turkish. this new farsi that is spoken in iran was not allways spoken by iranians their are many persian dialects. like pahlavi lori,,dari,mazandarani,gilaki,tylish,tati and thats just naming some. dari is pure persian even mo pure then the new farsi spoken by us iranians.
peace to my tajik,hazara,farsiwan persian brothers:D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.27.157 ( talk) 21:19, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I am not a pashtoon but i dare say that you are not an afghan but a stupid treacher to the afghanistan's history. respect all the people living in afghanistan. we all know that without contribution of even one afghan tribe it is not possible to bring peace in the country. insulting or using bad words does not change anything. be polite and live as an afghan if you are.
Nilofar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.165.196.151 ( talk) 05:34, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Anoshirawan wrote on 25 October 2007 in an edit summary: "Whats Eastern and Western Persian lol..... In Afghanistan we have numerous dialects and most dialects spoken in the western parts of the country arte closer to the iranian dialects." Anoshirawan should look at the scholarly literature. It is true that the dialects spoken in western Afghanistan are close to the dialects spoken in western Iran, both are classified as Eastern Farsi. Eastern Farsi and Western Farsi are the terms that linguists, not necessarily native speakers, have determined analytically appropriately describe the major languages that cover the range of Persian dialects between Teheran and Kabul. See, for example, Decker, Kendall D. (1992) "Languages of Chitral" Sociolinguistic Survey of Northern Pakistan, 5 National Institute of Pakistan Studies, Quaid-i-Azam University and Summer Institute of Linguistics, Islamabad, xxii, 257 p. In addition there are eight (8) other Persian languages that are currently spoken, some only by isolated elements removed from the Tajikistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan-Iran corridor. The Persian language sub-group is divided by linguists into the following languages:
Each of these has in addition a number of dialects that have been recognized. Just for example, Aimaq has had the following dialects identified: Taimuri (Teimuri, Timuri or Taimouri), Taimani, Zohri (Zuri), Jamshidi (Jamshedi, Djamchidi, Yemchidi or Dzhemshid), Firozkohi, Maliki, Mizmast, Chinghizi, and Zainal. -- Bejnar 19:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Parsi is a term primarily used for the Iranian language spoken in northern India. See Parsi a language of India It is an Iranian language, as is Persian, but Parsi is part of the northwestern branch while the Persian sub-group of languages is in the southwestern branch. see "Language Family Trees: Indo-European, Indo-Iranian, Iranian, Western" Dari, the official language of Afghanistan, is Eastern Farsi (Eastern Persian), or a subset of the the Persian language group, and thus is only distantly related to Parsi. See "Language Family Trees: Indo-European, Indo-Iranian, Iranian, Western, Southwestern, Persian" See also the Ethnologue report for Afghanistan at Languages of Afghanistan. Now there is another language called Parsi-Dari, which is spoken in Iran and Afghanistan that is also in the northwestern branch of the Iranian languages and diverged from Parsi some 600 to 700 years ago or more. See "Parsi-Dari". It is this language that is spoken by the Zorasterians and is sometimes confused with Dari because of the name. -- Bejnar 14:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Afghanistan has numerous dialects, which one is Dari lol.--Anoshirawan 23:52, 26 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoshirawan ( talk • contribs)
open the site with Internet Explorer, Plus here is an interview I found from youtube:
Dr Latif Nazemi is a Persian writer and he explains in this interview with Asmaii Radio that Dari and Parsi are synonymous. http://youtube.com/watch?v=y-5fGRlRM70 --Anoshirawan 04:52, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Farsi in Afghanistan and Iran are not different. The word "Dari" in Afghanistan was introduced in the 1960s before that everyone used farsi or parsi and they still do. Without knowing the Persian language you cannot start claiming this and that. --Anoshirawan 06:21, 10 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoshirawan ( talk • contribs)
Parsi is the correct name for the Persian language. Arabs because they didnt have "Peh" in their language changed it to farsi but most scholars still refer this language as Parsi not farsi. --Anoshirawan 22:46, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Relation of Daric coin and Dari Persian language was original research. Behaafarid 23:39, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Reverted the article right now to Bejnar's better founded argumentation. During the last month, Anoshirawan and Bejnar had an edit war on the question wether Dari was just a dialect or a language. They had countless reverts from this here to that one (and maybe even earlier, but I didn't have the nerve to check). Apart from this question being linguistically problematic, please try to avoid edit wars - if not, admins may start to block you. Makes you appear less trustworthy as Wiki-contributors in the long run. Take a deep breath plus a look at WP:EDITWAR, WP:3R and dialect, and try to find a compromise formula. Thanks! -- Kavaiyan <°)))o>< 00:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Should this article have the name Dari (Afghanistan) because Dari is the official name of this language in Afghanistan, or should this article be named Eastern Farsi which is the name given by linguists (in English) for this language? Does the fact that Dari may be used to refer to a number of other languages, both spoken and written, weigh in here at all? -- Bejnar 17:10, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
I think this article should be moved to Dari (Persian) since Dari is another name for the Persian language. the preceding unsigned comment was left by 65.93.211.223 Talk on 24 November 2007 at 01:54 (UCT)
Dari is not Eastern Farsi lol. Dari has always been a synonymous to Parsi. Dari IS NOT A DIALECT!
--Anoshirawan 07:31, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that Wikipedia policy would prohibit moving an article to a new name when the issue was under discussion on the talk page and no consensus had been achieved, absent an overriding problem like trademark or copyright violation. So, Anoshirawan's moving this article to Dari (Persian) on 24 November 2007, was inappropriate, at best. I would appreciate it if he would move it back, pending further discussion. -- Bejnar ( talk) 01:54, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
A. Request for comments on what is the best title for this article:
like Ariana said Dari is a synonymous term for Parsi or Farsi. for example, Ferdousi in his Shahnama uses Parsi,Dari, and Parsi Dari for his language. Hafez uses both terms(Dari and Parsi) for his language. This Article shouldnt be based on Afghanistan only because the word "Dari" belongs to all Persian-Speakers.--Anoshirawan 08:30, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
B. Statements about the relation between "Dari (Afghanistan)" [old name] and the language known as "Parsi".
I have been asked to add a neutral opinion, as an admin uninvolved in the naming dispute. While it seems to me that both "Dari (Afghanistan)" and "Dari (Persian)" make sense as names to some extent, a glance at the "Dari" disambiguation page makes it clear that the latter title could be misleading, as Dari Persian is a name used for literary Old Persian. As such, it is not suitable for a name for this page. If Dari is synonymous with Eastern Farsi, then calling the name "Dari (Eastern Farsi)" makes sense. Similarly, if it is the official name for the variety of Persian spoken in Afghanistan, then "Dari (Afghanistan)" makes sense. Either of those names is more acceptable than the current name, from a purely Wikipedian standpoint - the question remains as to whether there are enough references to support either of those names as a correct and accurate description of the language.
I hope that helps - if not, I'd suggest contacting one or more of the editors at Wikipedia:Third opinion for further outside input. Grutness... wha? 04:07, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Move Dari (Persian) to Dari and Dari to Dari (disambiguation). The modern language of Afghanistan is the primary topic. — AjaxSmack 14:48, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Most Classical Persian Poets who used Dari were from Western Iran:
Dari from the view point of Poets Ferdawsi Tusi, writes in Shahnama: کجا بیور از پهـــلوانی شمار بود در زبان دری صد هزار
به تازی همی بود تا گاه نصـر بدانگه که شد در جهان شاه نصر
بفرمـــــــــــود تا پارسی دری نبشتند و کوتاه شــــــــــد داوری
Sozani, another poet, says: صفات روی او آسان بود مرا گفتن گهی به لفظ دری و گهی به شعر دری
Nizami Ganjawi, one of the greatest poets of Dari, says: نظامی که نظم دری کار او اســت دری نظم کردن سزاوار او اســــــت هزار بلبل دستانسرای عاشـــق را بباید از تو سخن گفتن دری آموخت
Sanayee, the great Sufi and poet of Ghaznavid period says: شکر لله که ترا یافتم ای بحر ســـخا از تو صفت زمن اشعار به الفاظ دری
Sadi Sherazi, one of the ever greatest poets, says: هزار بلبل دستان سرای عاشق را بباید از تو سخن گفتن دری آموخت
Hafiz Sherazi, known as Bulbul-e Sheraz, says: ز شعر دلکش حافظ کسی شود آگاه که لطف طبع و سخن گفتن دری دان--Anoshirawan 03:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Recently (27 & 29 November 2007) in edits to this article, both Ariana310 and Anoshirawan have used Gabri to refer to one or more languages (or ethnolects) of Zoroastrian remnants in Iran. It has come to my attention that Gabri is a derogatory term in Iran for these languages. See [Ethnologue report for language code:gbz" which says Many Zoroastrians speak Parsi-Dari and do not know Zoroastrian Dari. "Gabri", "Gabar" and "Yazdi" are derogatory names. It is better to use scholarly, non-derogatory names for languages. -- Bejnar ( talk) 18:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Merge with Persian. Ethnologue is not a scientific source. It is run by Christian missionaries. Afghan Persian has several dialects of its own and the dialect of Herat is almost the same as that of Mash-had. We do not distinguish languages by its dialect. Tajiki, Dari, Persian are all the same language and Persian readers can read Persian publication from any of these languages. -- alidoostzadeh ( talk) 02:34, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I commented out this reference. It was supposed to back up:
"Modern Dari Persian is a major language of Afghanistan, and is spoken in the northern and western parts, and the capital, Kabul, in the east. Approximately 70% of the population of Afghanistan are native speakers."
When I checked that reference I found it didn't support the assertions it was supposed to back up, at all.
It says Pashto: "...is the native tongue of 50 to 55 percent of Afghans;"
It says Persian is: "...The native tongue of twenty five percent of the population." -- although it also says: "...it is the most commonly spoken language in Afghanistan"(!)
Finally, it says: "Dari must not be confused with Kabol, the dialect of Kabul."
I think what this reference is trying to say, is that, even though 50 to 55 percent of Afghans are native speakers of Pashto, since it also claims only another 10 percent speak it as a second language, while a greater percentage of citizens can speak a dialect of Persian, and, by this reasoning, states more people speak Persian than Pashto.
FWIW, the Pashto article claims 15 million speakers in Afghanistan. It cites the CIA factbook, which also doesn't back up its claims. The CIA says:
"Afghan Persian or Dari (official) 50%, Pashto (official) 35%, Turkic languages (primarily Uzbek and Turkmen) 11%, 30 minor languages (primarily Balochi and Pashai) 4%, much bilingualism."
Cheers! Geo Swan ( talk) 05:38, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
This page should be merged with New Persian.
This is what Professor. Gilbert Lazard, a famous Iranologist and also the writer of Persian grammer states: "The language known as New Persian, which usually called at this period by the name of Dari or Parsi-Dari,can be classified linguistically as a continuation of Middle Persian, the official religious and literary language of Sassanian Iran, itself a continuation of Old Persian, the language of the Achaemenids. Unlike the other languages and dialects, ancient and modern, of the Iranian group such as Avestan, Parthian, Soghdian, Kurdish, Pashto, etc., Old Middle and New Persian represent one and the same language at three states of its history. it had its origin in Fars (the true Persian country from the historical point of view and is differentiated by dialectical features, still easily recognizable from the dialect prevailing in north-western and eastern Iran".(Lazard, Gilbert 1975, “The Rise of the New Persian Language” in Frye, R. N., The Cambridge History of Iran, Vol. 4, pp. 595-632, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.). Mohammad Taqi Bahar is a great poet and scholar, but he is definitely superseded by Gilbert Lazard who had a more formal academic training, is a more modern source and has written many books on Persian grammer and the origin of Parsi-Dari.
Ethnologue is a missionary, non-scholarly, non Ph.D. amateur site with lots of false and invalid information. I have e-mailed them on different issue another time, where they made major mistakes on population characteristics and they thanked me for pointing it out. Such an amateurish site should not be used in Wikipedia. Yes Persian has dialect variations say from Tehran, to Esfahan to Mashhad to Herat and etc. For example the dialect of Herat and Mashhad are closer to each other, than Herat and Badakhshan. But these could be mentioned in the same page of New Persian. So far the content of this page are nothing but OR. Some very poor OR, for example relating the Dardic coin of Darius to to Parsi-Dari language.-- alidoostzadeh ( talk) 01:49, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Its no mystery that there are alot of Iranians and Pro iranians Writing the history of afghanistan to there own agendas and Its a shame that Dari is called a PERSIAN LANGUAGE when it should be called in an Afghani Language. Tell us what you think? Pashtun786 ( talk) 01:36, 26 January 2008 (UTC)Pashtun786
According to dictionaries and encyclopedias and all scholarly sources, Afghani language =
Pashto. You are just another Afghan nationalist expressing your extreme POVs.
Afghani from Princeton's WordNet: S: (n) Pashto, Pashtu, Paxto, Afghani, Afghan (an Iranian language spoken in Afghanistan and Pakistan; the official language of Afghanistan) DurraniPashtun ( talk) 17:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Dari Persian | |
---|---|
دری | |
Native to | Afghanistan |
Region | Middle East, Central Asia |
Official status | |
Official language in | ![]() |
Regulated by | Academy of Sciences of Afghanistan |
Language codes | |
ISO 639-3 |
prs |