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There are inconsistencies between the sources and the article, mainly the attribution of the palace to Thami when all sources and records confirm this was confiscated by his brother Madani in 1908. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TrivialPursweet ( talk • contribs)
Thanks a lot and for clearing up the confusion on the source. I think this source is weak as it is a matter of public record (see the article on him) that Thami El Glaoui only became Pasha of Marrakech in 1909 on the instigation of his brother Madani. Certainly not at the end of the 19th century. This seems to be a weak source, weaker than Maxwell. Will try and find other sources. TrivialPursweet ( talk) 22:07, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
Reading through Cavender's thesis (which doesn't seem to have been published and edited) she is misquoting Maxwell when stating that Thami became Pasha at the end of the 19th century (and also that he received a Krupp canon from the Sultan). She is confusing him with Madani and Maxwell makes no such mistake (I have his book in hand) TrivialPursweet ( talk) 22:10, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
I.e not sure how Cavender is considered a "reliable source" as per your kind response. TrivialPursweet ( talk) 22:11, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
Morning! See below, apologies there's a lot but I think it confirms it, including the misidentification. Dar El Glaoui in the French sources referenced, was Madani's house in Fès, in the Ziat neighborhood and was occupied by Regnault and then Lyautey himself. Madani's family including his son were living there [note that Haj Thami had no official function in Fès] and the house was previously owned by Omar Tazi. Note that there is a common trend or confusing Thami for Madani in Morocco. This is likely because Thami seized large parts of Madani's estate after his death in 1918, including, most likely Dar El Glaoui. I think the article also deserves a note that the house was previously known as Dar Tazi and owned by Omar Tazi, Grand Vizier, was then confiscated by his rival Madani El Glaoui, when he became Grand Vizier himself, was then occupied by Regnault, Lyautey, before being transferred to Pacha Haj Thami El Glaoui. This is probably the most accurate description. Happy to keep the reference to Cavender but to also note that others have noted the mistake. Below from Grand vizir Madani El Mezouari El Glaoui (Le) : Une vie au service du Makhzen, Abderrahman El Mezouari El Glaoui
Page 127: De plus , le sultan fit retenir en otage pendant près d'une année, dans le palais de Si El Madani à Fès, une partie de sa famille (dont mon propre père) [...]. Une partie de ce même palais fut réquisitionnée pour y loger Regnault et sa suite. Le Docteur Weisberger témoigne d'un fait survenu le 30 mars 1912: "en revenant du Palais, M. Regnault me trouva à la porte du Dar El-Glaoui. Il était rayonnant: C'est fait me dit-il, le traité est signé*319"
"Au Seuil du Maroc Moderne" by Frederic Weisberger p.270. "pour la petite histoire, mon père[this is Madani's son] nous relata qu'au soir de ce même 30 mars, alors âgé d'une dizaine d'années, il avait entendu les clameurs de la fête qui battait son plein dans l'autre partie du palais paternel pour fêter cette signature. Ce même palais fut ensuite occupé par Lyautey comme l'évoque le général Colin dans un article publié dans une à revue militaire "[this is sourced]. [..] Cette maison située dans le quartier Ziat*322 a une histoire: elle avait appartenu à Haj Omar Tazi, et fut confisquée par Si El Madani après le triomphe de la hafidiya.
TrivialPursweet ( talk) 09:50, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
Actually rereading Cavender it does seem she attributes it to Thami based on Maxwell, not through other sources. Given Maxwell attributes it to Madani as do the other sources I think we should strike that reference. However her thesis is interesting in terms of architectural descriptions and so those aspects are deserving of a reference? Just thinking out loud here. Thanks so much by the way for helping me learn the art of editing, will apply to other articles before I start making changes!! TrivialPursweet ( talk) 10:37, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
Alright, it's finally done, pending further proofreading or revisions. Feel free to make any fixes to the wording. If you spot any major issue, let me know.
The only last-minute problem I realized is that, because one of the sources is written by a Madani's son, it may not be considered the best source per criteria of WP:RELIABLE, but that's why I've made sure to explicitly name him inline with regards to the one point where there is some discrepancy between the sources, so readers are aware of who's making that comment. Since the other sources aren't ideal either, as noted above, and since I think this isn't a major controversy, just a minor point of confusion, I think this is reasonable. The content should be explicit enough for interested readers to be able to judge for themselves. I hope this is an improvement! R Prazeres ( talk) 19:46, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There are inconsistencies between the sources and the article, mainly the attribution of the palace to Thami when all sources and records confirm this was confiscated by his brother Madani in 1908. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TrivialPursweet ( talk • contribs)
Thanks a lot and for clearing up the confusion on the source. I think this source is weak as it is a matter of public record (see the article on him) that Thami El Glaoui only became Pasha of Marrakech in 1909 on the instigation of his brother Madani. Certainly not at the end of the 19th century. This seems to be a weak source, weaker than Maxwell. Will try and find other sources. TrivialPursweet ( talk) 22:07, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
Reading through Cavender's thesis (which doesn't seem to have been published and edited) she is misquoting Maxwell when stating that Thami became Pasha at the end of the 19th century (and also that he received a Krupp canon from the Sultan). She is confusing him with Madani and Maxwell makes no such mistake (I have his book in hand) TrivialPursweet ( talk) 22:10, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
I.e not sure how Cavender is considered a "reliable source" as per your kind response. TrivialPursweet ( talk) 22:11, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
Morning! See below, apologies there's a lot but I think it confirms it, including the misidentification. Dar El Glaoui in the French sources referenced, was Madani's house in Fès, in the Ziat neighborhood and was occupied by Regnault and then Lyautey himself. Madani's family including his son were living there [note that Haj Thami had no official function in Fès] and the house was previously owned by Omar Tazi. Note that there is a common trend or confusing Thami for Madani in Morocco. This is likely because Thami seized large parts of Madani's estate after his death in 1918, including, most likely Dar El Glaoui. I think the article also deserves a note that the house was previously known as Dar Tazi and owned by Omar Tazi, Grand Vizier, was then confiscated by his rival Madani El Glaoui, when he became Grand Vizier himself, was then occupied by Regnault, Lyautey, before being transferred to Pacha Haj Thami El Glaoui. This is probably the most accurate description. Happy to keep the reference to Cavender but to also note that others have noted the mistake. Below from Grand vizir Madani El Mezouari El Glaoui (Le) : Une vie au service du Makhzen, Abderrahman El Mezouari El Glaoui
Page 127: De plus , le sultan fit retenir en otage pendant près d'une année, dans le palais de Si El Madani à Fès, une partie de sa famille (dont mon propre père) [...]. Une partie de ce même palais fut réquisitionnée pour y loger Regnault et sa suite. Le Docteur Weisberger témoigne d'un fait survenu le 30 mars 1912: "en revenant du Palais, M. Regnault me trouva à la porte du Dar El-Glaoui. Il était rayonnant: C'est fait me dit-il, le traité est signé*319"
"Au Seuil du Maroc Moderne" by Frederic Weisberger p.270. "pour la petite histoire, mon père[this is Madani's son] nous relata qu'au soir de ce même 30 mars, alors âgé d'une dizaine d'années, il avait entendu les clameurs de la fête qui battait son plein dans l'autre partie du palais paternel pour fêter cette signature. Ce même palais fut ensuite occupé par Lyautey comme l'évoque le général Colin dans un article publié dans une à revue militaire "[this is sourced]. [..] Cette maison située dans le quartier Ziat*322 a une histoire: elle avait appartenu à Haj Omar Tazi, et fut confisquée par Si El Madani après le triomphe de la hafidiya.
TrivialPursweet ( talk) 09:50, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
Actually rereading Cavender it does seem she attributes it to Thami based on Maxwell, not through other sources. Given Maxwell attributes it to Madani as do the other sources I think we should strike that reference. However her thesis is interesting in terms of architectural descriptions and so those aspects are deserving of a reference? Just thinking out loud here. Thanks so much by the way for helping me learn the art of editing, will apply to other articles before I start making changes!! TrivialPursweet ( talk) 10:37, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
Alright, it's finally done, pending further proofreading or revisions. Feel free to make any fixes to the wording. If you spot any major issue, let me know.
The only last-minute problem I realized is that, because one of the sources is written by a Madani's son, it may not be considered the best source per criteria of WP:RELIABLE, but that's why I've made sure to explicitly name him inline with regards to the one point where there is some discrepancy between the sources, so readers are aware of who's making that comment. Since the other sources aren't ideal either, as noted above, and since I think this isn't a major controversy, just a minor point of confusion, I think this is reasonable. The content should be explicit enough for interested readers to be able to judge for themselves. I hope this is an improvement! R Prazeres ( talk) 19:46, 13 February 2023 (UTC)