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1775:
DANDY predates 1790 by at least 15 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.235.44.73 ( talk • contribs)
Yankee Doodle may date to the 1750s, but if you have a look at the wikipedia page on it, the original lyrics are quite different to those sung today and don't seem to include the word 'dandy. The current full Oxford English Dictionary gives the earliest printed citation as "c1780 Sc. Song (see N. & Q. 8th Ser. IV. 81), I've heard my granny crack O' sixty twa years back When there were sic a stock of Dandies O; Oh they gaed to Kirk and Fair, Wi' their ribbons round their hair, And their stumpie drugget coats, quite the Dandy O.", where it at least seems to be being used in the same basic sense as in the current version of Yankee Doodle. The OED doesn't reference the song Yankee Doodle (although the OED possibly isn't the best source on early European American words - their first cite for 'Yankee/Yankey/Yankie' isn't until 1765). I'll come back in a couple of days and if no-one has added any comments here I'll edit the article to at least reference the OED citation. Caitifty ( talk) 03:29, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the phrases "rejects bourgeois values" and "counter-cultural" from the definition, as I don't believe they reflect the more nuanced attitude of the dandy towards society. — Ashley Y 04:47, 2005 May 29 (UTC)
I’ve edited and clarified the section on female dandies, it application and evolution. During the Regency period, when “dandy” had a more immature meaning of “fop”, then the notion of female dandies are documented in the historic literature. At this time, they were called dandyess, dandizette, dandysette, or dandisette. Then, after “dandy” took on it more modern day meaning of refinement, it became applied exclusively to men. Ladies could not be dandies, any more than men could become lesbians. Instead, the female side branched out and developed own distinct philosophy, called quaintrellism. This split is better noted and explained.
Though I appreciate the identification of the courtesan as the female dandy, I would argue that the Vamp in the Theda Bara style might be more appropriate. This image captures the inner pride of the dandy whilst using her beauty and sexuality to make an impact. DLS
I updated the section upon female dandies, based upon recent research for quaintrelles. Since quaintrelles actually predate dandizettes, the previous notion that quaintrelles emerged from dandizettes was incorrect. Then, I removed the section on possible quaintrelles, since two of the three examples are incorrect. The courtesan Cora Pearl would not a quaintrelle, since quaintrelles use strength of style and personality, instead of their body, to gain renown. Then, the artistic diva, would be no more a quaintrelle than any other subsets of artists or ladies of title.
Timmbbo (
talk)
22:12, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
A clueless hash-up of this article has been made today by someone who thinks "18th century' means the 1800s, thinks that dandyism is passé and can't spell Britain. -- Wetman 09:13, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I messed up the centuries and spelled someting wrong. So instead of complaining why didn't you correct it yourself? Much easier. Also, the article said dandyism was mostly a thing of the past before I edited it, which I did by the way because it had no sections and was pretty incoherent. But if this is your baby and you want to revert it, I won't fight you. Mjk2357 19:22, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
I was thinking a discussion of dandies in relation to metrosexuality would be a good addition.
This article definitely should mention the flâneur. I'm pretty sure that flânerie is the older of the two trends, and that dandyism is supposed to have emerged from it in some obscure way, possibly under commercial pressures. Speaking of which, dandyism probably deserves some consideration as an early example of the subculture under modern mass society. -- WadeMcR 08:25, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I think this article, or at least the first paragraph, needs rescuing from its "Baudelairean" POV. There are others, after all.
A dandy is a man who cares to dress well. Let's start with something like that. Then all the nonsense about "elevates aesthetics to a living religion", "rejects bourgeois values" and so forth can be attributed to the various points of view of various authors. — Ashley Y 08:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I could swear I'd seen references to gay dandies. Obviously, there's Wilde. Would it be acceptable to include a section on gay male dandies? samwaltz 09:30, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
It seems appropriate. I've only ever seen dandy in reference to homosexual people in modern "pop-culture" i.e. Mr. Show, Yankee Doodle et. all. Rekutyn ( talk) 07:08, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
From article para 1: "thus a dandy could be considered a kind of snob, or, alternatively, either a warrior in the class struggle or a class traitor."
If we are mainly talking about dandies in their heyday, early 19th century, then the reference to class is quite anachronistic - Marxism hadn't even been formulated, and I doubt any dandy would have thought in terms of class struggle even if it had. I note that someone has put a citation-need tag against that assertion - because it does stand as a bold assertion at the beginning of the article, with no development of this theme, or even supporting references for the assertion, within the article.
I have deleted the the references to class. If someone can point to previously published analysis, then include it back into the article. However, because of the anachronism involved, I wouldn't think Marxist class terminology would be appropriate for the introductory first paragraph. -- Iacobus 01:44, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Given these connotations, dandyism can be seen as apolitical protestestations against the rise of egalitarian principles — often including nostalgic.... Is that a word? I'm no native speaker of English Lio 19:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Iv added a small bit about an arts collective i read about, i just need someone who has the know-how to format it a bit better. iv put all the info there just needs formatted sorry im not so clever in regards to editting references etc. it was just a small piece i read in a magasine which is relevant. Thanks.
Is that second, almost identical quote bogus? 80.175.158.1 ( talk) 14:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
…3"48 P.M. E.S.T. A Representational Effort. Expressions possibly used. Why Daddy their just Dandy possible meaning in good behavior. That representation is a strong gathering of the Female sex and a possible colaberated conversation towards her parents. And for the Male issue pertaining the language of Just Dandy or yes just dandy perhaps pertaining to in thought and just yet all is well , though may convey it deeper as challenged or to the acception also addmittance of or towards a conversation. In all,all shall be in good or a fair discription.
The tune Yankee Doodle Dandy is perhaps nothing to mess with.
For instence it did come after the Committee of Fifty and Committee Of Correspondence and also the committee of sixty wich had the representatives of the DeLancey Faction and the usuals of New York wich had formed the Sons Of Liberty.
reread the formations of Adams from the tea act north to south,and why an importation act would'nt of worked though at first was a fair representation of conduct wich possibly was a meaning for all to join in towards the representation of a form act wich perhaps is some form of a taxation perhaps, and still is a very interesting consideration David George DeLancey 4:09 P.M. E.S.T.
David George DeLancey (
talk)
20:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
We owe a vote of thanks to User:Beland who so generously scattered "fact" and "pov' notices throughout the text, 23 March 2008. That's editing!-- Wetman ( talk) 08:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
My suggestion is in regards to the following quote from the article:
In the 21st century, the word "dandy" is a jocular, often sarcastic adjective meaning "fine" or "great", while "a dandy" refers to a well-groomed, well-dressed, and self-absorbed man.
I think the intended meaning of the sentence may be obvious to those already familiar with the word, but the sentence is not clearly worded. When the word dandy is used sarcastically, the intention is the inversion of its meaning. The quoted text above implies that when dandy is used sarcastically, it means fine or great, when, in fact, the opposite is true. I think paragraph should be reworded as follows:
In the 21st century, "dandy" can be used as a noun meaning "a well-groomed, well-dressed, and self-absorbed man". As an adjective, "dandy" means "fine" or "great", however, it is often used sarcastically to indicate the opposite meaning.
This change is minor, especially if you are familiar with the word and its common usage. However, I think it's important to keep in mind how articles will be perceived by non-anglophones who are not familiar with the colloquial uses of the term.
RationalResponse ( talk) 23:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I seem to recall there being some kind of "Southern dandy" thing, I got here through an article on a Louisiana politician, but I'm not sure any Southerner is mentioned in this. Am I mistaken?-- T. Anthony ( talk) 16:04, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
firstly the long lists and picture collection near the end of the article look awful, and secondly I think some mention should be made of the fact that when most people think of a dandy, what they actually have in mind is a macaroni. Dandys were elegant, subtle, and refined, whereas macaronis were a riot of colour, effeminate manners, quizzing glasses and ludicrous wigs. 31.53.31.161 ( talk) 14:44, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
Would you include ... Stephen Fry? David Beckham? Michael Douglas? The young Hugh Hefner? Some of the Black Rapper-style musicians? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.168.5.121 ( talk) 11:45, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
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In English Wikipedia there is an article about "dandy" though there is no article about "dandyism". On the other hand Spanish Wikipedia has articles about both "dandy" and "dandyism".
There are also five languages: Català, עברית, Italiano, 한국어, Polski - in which there is an article about "dandyism" and not about "dandy". I believe it should be unified so that all these articles in all languages would be linked together. Helias ( talk) 20:40, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 April 2024 and 11 June 2024. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Pomchidog,
Annoyeave (
article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Gocats14 ( talk) 20:25, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Dandy article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The contents of the Quaintrelle page were merged into Dandy. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
1775:
DANDY predates 1790 by at least 15 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.235.44.73 ( talk • contribs)
Yankee Doodle may date to the 1750s, but if you have a look at the wikipedia page on it, the original lyrics are quite different to those sung today and don't seem to include the word 'dandy. The current full Oxford English Dictionary gives the earliest printed citation as "c1780 Sc. Song (see N. & Q. 8th Ser. IV. 81), I've heard my granny crack O' sixty twa years back When there were sic a stock of Dandies O; Oh they gaed to Kirk and Fair, Wi' their ribbons round their hair, And their stumpie drugget coats, quite the Dandy O.", where it at least seems to be being used in the same basic sense as in the current version of Yankee Doodle. The OED doesn't reference the song Yankee Doodle (although the OED possibly isn't the best source on early European American words - their first cite for 'Yankee/Yankey/Yankie' isn't until 1765). I'll come back in a couple of days and if no-one has added any comments here I'll edit the article to at least reference the OED citation. Caitifty ( talk) 03:29, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the phrases "rejects bourgeois values" and "counter-cultural" from the definition, as I don't believe they reflect the more nuanced attitude of the dandy towards society. — Ashley Y 04:47, 2005 May 29 (UTC)
I’ve edited and clarified the section on female dandies, it application and evolution. During the Regency period, when “dandy” had a more immature meaning of “fop”, then the notion of female dandies are documented in the historic literature. At this time, they were called dandyess, dandizette, dandysette, or dandisette. Then, after “dandy” took on it more modern day meaning of refinement, it became applied exclusively to men. Ladies could not be dandies, any more than men could become lesbians. Instead, the female side branched out and developed own distinct philosophy, called quaintrellism. This split is better noted and explained.
Though I appreciate the identification of the courtesan as the female dandy, I would argue that the Vamp in the Theda Bara style might be more appropriate. This image captures the inner pride of the dandy whilst using her beauty and sexuality to make an impact. DLS
I updated the section upon female dandies, based upon recent research for quaintrelles. Since quaintrelles actually predate dandizettes, the previous notion that quaintrelles emerged from dandizettes was incorrect. Then, I removed the section on possible quaintrelles, since two of the three examples are incorrect. The courtesan Cora Pearl would not a quaintrelle, since quaintrelles use strength of style and personality, instead of their body, to gain renown. Then, the artistic diva, would be no more a quaintrelle than any other subsets of artists or ladies of title.
Timmbbo (
talk)
22:12, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
A clueless hash-up of this article has been made today by someone who thinks "18th century' means the 1800s, thinks that dandyism is passé and can't spell Britain. -- Wetman 09:13, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I messed up the centuries and spelled someting wrong. So instead of complaining why didn't you correct it yourself? Much easier. Also, the article said dandyism was mostly a thing of the past before I edited it, which I did by the way because it had no sections and was pretty incoherent. But if this is your baby and you want to revert it, I won't fight you. Mjk2357 19:22, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
I was thinking a discussion of dandies in relation to metrosexuality would be a good addition.
This article definitely should mention the flâneur. I'm pretty sure that flânerie is the older of the two trends, and that dandyism is supposed to have emerged from it in some obscure way, possibly under commercial pressures. Speaking of which, dandyism probably deserves some consideration as an early example of the subculture under modern mass society. -- WadeMcR 08:25, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I think this article, or at least the first paragraph, needs rescuing from its "Baudelairean" POV. There are others, after all.
A dandy is a man who cares to dress well. Let's start with something like that. Then all the nonsense about "elevates aesthetics to a living religion", "rejects bourgeois values" and so forth can be attributed to the various points of view of various authors. — Ashley Y 08:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I could swear I'd seen references to gay dandies. Obviously, there's Wilde. Would it be acceptable to include a section on gay male dandies? samwaltz 09:30, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
It seems appropriate. I've only ever seen dandy in reference to homosexual people in modern "pop-culture" i.e. Mr. Show, Yankee Doodle et. all. Rekutyn ( talk) 07:08, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
From article para 1: "thus a dandy could be considered a kind of snob, or, alternatively, either a warrior in the class struggle or a class traitor."
If we are mainly talking about dandies in their heyday, early 19th century, then the reference to class is quite anachronistic - Marxism hadn't even been formulated, and I doubt any dandy would have thought in terms of class struggle even if it had. I note that someone has put a citation-need tag against that assertion - because it does stand as a bold assertion at the beginning of the article, with no development of this theme, or even supporting references for the assertion, within the article.
I have deleted the the references to class. If someone can point to previously published analysis, then include it back into the article. However, because of the anachronism involved, I wouldn't think Marxist class terminology would be appropriate for the introductory first paragraph. -- Iacobus 01:44, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Given these connotations, dandyism can be seen as apolitical protestestations against the rise of egalitarian principles — often including nostalgic.... Is that a word? I'm no native speaker of English Lio 19:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Iv added a small bit about an arts collective i read about, i just need someone who has the know-how to format it a bit better. iv put all the info there just needs formatted sorry im not so clever in regards to editting references etc. it was just a small piece i read in a magasine which is relevant. Thanks.
Is that second, almost identical quote bogus? 80.175.158.1 ( talk) 14:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
…3"48 P.M. E.S.T. A Representational Effort. Expressions possibly used. Why Daddy their just Dandy possible meaning in good behavior. That representation is a strong gathering of the Female sex and a possible colaberated conversation towards her parents. And for the Male issue pertaining the language of Just Dandy or yes just dandy perhaps pertaining to in thought and just yet all is well , though may convey it deeper as challenged or to the acception also addmittance of or towards a conversation. In all,all shall be in good or a fair discription.
The tune Yankee Doodle Dandy is perhaps nothing to mess with.
For instence it did come after the Committee of Fifty and Committee Of Correspondence and also the committee of sixty wich had the representatives of the DeLancey Faction and the usuals of New York wich had formed the Sons Of Liberty.
reread the formations of Adams from the tea act north to south,and why an importation act would'nt of worked though at first was a fair representation of conduct wich possibly was a meaning for all to join in towards the representation of a form act wich perhaps is some form of a taxation perhaps, and still is a very interesting consideration David George DeLancey 4:09 P.M. E.S.T.
David George DeLancey (
talk)
20:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
We owe a vote of thanks to User:Beland who so generously scattered "fact" and "pov' notices throughout the text, 23 March 2008. That's editing!-- Wetman ( talk) 08:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
My suggestion is in regards to the following quote from the article:
In the 21st century, the word "dandy" is a jocular, often sarcastic adjective meaning "fine" or "great", while "a dandy" refers to a well-groomed, well-dressed, and self-absorbed man.
I think the intended meaning of the sentence may be obvious to those already familiar with the word, but the sentence is not clearly worded. When the word dandy is used sarcastically, the intention is the inversion of its meaning. The quoted text above implies that when dandy is used sarcastically, it means fine or great, when, in fact, the opposite is true. I think paragraph should be reworded as follows:
In the 21st century, "dandy" can be used as a noun meaning "a well-groomed, well-dressed, and self-absorbed man". As an adjective, "dandy" means "fine" or "great", however, it is often used sarcastically to indicate the opposite meaning.
This change is minor, especially if you are familiar with the word and its common usage. However, I think it's important to keep in mind how articles will be perceived by non-anglophones who are not familiar with the colloquial uses of the term.
RationalResponse ( talk) 23:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I seem to recall there being some kind of "Southern dandy" thing, I got here through an article on a Louisiana politician, but I'm not sure any Southerner is mentioned in this. Am I mistaken?-- T. Anthony ( talk) 16:04, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
firstly the long lists and picture collection near the end of the article look awful, and secondly I think some mention should be made of the fact that when most people think of a dandy, what they actually have in mind is a macaroni. Dandys were elegant, subtle, and refined, whereas macaronis were a riot of colour, effeminate manners, quizzing glasses and ludicrous wigs. 31.53.31.161 ( talk) 14:44, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
Would you include ... Stephen Fry? David Beckham? Michael Douglas? The young Hugh Hefner? Some of the Black Rapper-style musicians? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.168.5.121 ( talk) 11:45, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
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In English Wikipedia there is an article about "dandy" though there is no article about "dandyism". On the other hand Spanish Wikipedia has articles about both "dandy" and "dandyism".
There are also five languages: Català, עברית, Italiano, 한국어, Polski - in which there is an article about "dandyism" and not about "dandy". I believe it should be unified so that all these articles in all languages would be linked together. Helias ( talk) 20:40, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 April 2024 and 11 June 2024. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Pomchidog,
Annoyeave (
article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Gocats14 ( talk) 20:25, 3 June 2024 (UTC)