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If anyone is wondering, the large body of material not really about Dan Emmett that was here has ended up at Minstrel. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:51, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
The Virginia Minstrels didn't perform in Boston until after performances in New York City. I've provided some citations referring to the New York origins. Declair ( talk) 17:59, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Song titles are in quotes, per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (titles). Please read that document before reverting. — BrianSmithson 12:30, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Hello, Brian Smithson. Joseph Byrd here. I appreciate the contributions you've made to the Encyclopedia, and your breadth of interest, but I'm confused as to why you removed my edits to the Dan Emmett page. Everything I said is well-documented, and I'm told by another editor that I've violated no copyright in my citation from a Dan Emmett outside link. I wrote defending Emmett's authorship of Dixie, and added a bit that refutes a common misinterpretation of his feelings about the song. I could easily quote you the details (which I felt were too scholarly to bother with in a popular setting). There is no doubt about the correctness, yet you essentially eviscerated everything I wrote. Would you care to explain why?
Thanks,
Josephbyrd 04:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
P.S. In Nathan's exhaustive book, he says, "Ëmmett was devoid of any business instinct. Instead of publishing and immediately copyrighting "Dixie,' which was on everyone's lips, he waited more than a year before giving it to Firth, Pond & Co. They deposited it with the District Court of the United States for the Southern District of New York on June 21, 1860. Other publishers, considering the tune public property, were hard at their heels. For example, on June 26, Joh Church Jr., in Cincinnat, 'filed a piano arrangement...but acknowledged in a later edition, no doubt under pressure, the permission of the original publishers'."
There is also citation of a convention of music dealers that year, in which it was acknowledged that Emmett was the author.
The matter of Emmett's feelings about the legacy of his song is more complex. There is, I agree a story of Emmett's having said, "If I had known to what use they were going to put my song, I will be damned if I'd have written it." But that story is countered by the interview he later gave to the editor of The Confederate Veteran in 1895. And the context of the premiere performance, in the Bowery district, the heart of Democratic opposition to the coming war, together with the lyrics I quoted (likewise from Nathan), make it clear that he was sympathetic to the view that blacks were better off in the South.
As to Emmett's memory lapses and inconsistency, if that were the criterion, composers (including myself) would be in deep trouble. I'm currently being questioned by people regarding what I wrote or said 40 years ago, and my memories are as flawed as Emmett's. The alleged comment in the previous paragraph is at best third hand, being quoted from a letter from Col. T. Allston Brown, who was not even present at the conversation. It is thus third-hand hearsay. In any case, it is not justification for wholesale removal of an edit.
Josephbyrd 05:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Brian, I'm relieved that your edits are based on scholarship. Regarding the "controversy" around "Dixie's" authorship, I was referring to Nathan (1962), pp. 266-269, which seems to put to rest any legitimate alternative claims. The only exception to the general agreement during the first decade is J.C. Viereck's edition of the song (New Orleans: P.P. Werlein, 1860), which was resolved in Firth, Pond & Co.'s favor, although during the Confederacy the copyright agreement was ignored by Southern publishers.
You mention Sacks and Sacks, and Abel. Not having the books, my question is, do they deal with contemporary "controversy", or are they claims made long afterward? In any case, should they be included in the books cited?
Finally, the most convincing evidence to me (as a music scholar and composer) is Nathan's punctilious citation of stylistic qualities that link the tune, at least, to previous ones by Emmett, as well as tracing the verse to Henry Bishop's "The Dashing White Sergeant" (parodied in the U.S. as "If I had a mule what wouldn't go..."), also used in the early minstrel song "Gumbo Chaff", as well as the "Scotch snap" of the chorus,p. 261. If your erudition extends to melodic/rhythmic analysis, I would urge you to take another look at Chapter 16, and reconsider your statement that there is a legitimate controversy.
There is nothing wrong with musical amateurs contributing (indeed, independent scholars' passion is one of Wikipedia's strengths), but unless there is a reasonable answer to Nathan's detailed analysis, I think it unfortunate that such opinions override it, as it fuels claims that the encyclopedia is a hotbed of un-supported convictions. Many college teachers (certainly not myself) refuse to accept Wikipedia citations from students for this reason.
Lastly, while I support the right of anyone to submit verses backing contrary opinions, I think the removal of the lyrics I supplied (Nathan p. 358) is arbitrary. Refute them if you like (this should not be too difficult, as Emmett seemed to constantly insert new verses), but don't excise them, because they are evidence to the fact that the song played to working-class xenophobia and racism in the Bowery, which was soon after to be the center of Copperheadism and the Three Corners (anti-war) riots. My point is that "Dixie" was not written in a vacuum, but reflected the era and mood of its audience. If you don't like the analysis, supply your own, but don't simply wipe mine away with a stroke of The Administrator's cursor. This is another charge increasingly leveled: Administrators feel they "own" the site, and less frequent/dedicated contributors are unwelcome.
Josephbyrd 15:38, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
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I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Dan Emmett's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "grave":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 19:40, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
Umm, what? Is either of these dates well documented? Jim.henderson ( talk) 18:37, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on October 29, 2019 and October 29, 2021. |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
|
If anyone is wondering, the large body of material not really about Dan Emmett that was here has ended up at Minstrel. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:51, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
The Virginia Minstrels didn't perform in Boston until after performances in New York City. I've provided some citations referring to the New York origins. Declair ( talk) 17:59, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Song titles are in quotes, per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (titles). Please read that document before reverting. — BrianSmithson 12:30, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Hello, Brian Smithson. Joseph Byrd here. I appreciate the contributions you've made to the Encyclopedia, and your breadth of interest, but I'm confused as to why you removed my edits to the Dan Emmett page. Everything I said is well-documented, and I'm told by another editor that I've violated no copyright in my citation from a Dan Emmett outside link. I wrote defending Emmett's authorship of Dixie, and added a bit that refutes a common misinterpretation of his feelings about the song. I could easily quote you the details (which I felt were too scholarly to bother with in a popular setting). There is no doubt about the correctness, yet you essentially eviscerated everything I wrote. Would you care to explain why?
Thanks,
Josephbyrd 04:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
P.S. In Nathan's exhaustive book, he says, "Ëmmett was devoid of any business instinct. Instead of publishing and immediately copyrighting "Dixie,' which was on everyone's lips, he waited more than a year before giving it to Firth, Pond & Co. They deposited it with the District Court of the United States for the Southern District of New York on June 21, 1860. Other publishers, considering the tune public property, were hard at their heels. For example, on June 26, Joh Church Jr., in Cincinnat, 'filed a piano arrangement...but acknowledged in a later edition, no doubt under pressure, the permission of the original publishers'."
There is also citation of a convention of music dealers that year, in which it was acknowledged that Emmett was the author.
The matter of Emmett's feelings about the legacy of his song is more complex. There is, I agree a story of Emmett's having said, "If I had known to what use they were going to put my song, I will be damned if I'd have written it." But that story is countered by the interview he later gave to the editor of The Confederate Veteran in 1895. And the context of the premiere performance, in the Bowery district, the heart of Democratic opposition to the coming war, together with the lyrics I quoted (likewise from Nathan), make it clear that he was sympathetic to the view that blacks were better off in the South.
As to Emmett's memory lapses and inconsistency, if that were the criterion, composers (including myself) would be in deep trouble. I'm currently being questioned by people regarding what I wrote or said 40 years ago, and my memories are as flawed as Emmett's. The alleged comment in the previous paragraph is at best third hand, being quoted from a letter from Col. T. Allston Brown, who was not even present at the conversation. It is thus third-hand hearsay. In any case, it is not justification for wholesale removal of an edit.
Josephbyrd 05:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Brian, I'm relieved that your edits are based on scholarship. Regarding the "controversy" around "Dixie's" authorship, I was referring to Nathan (1962), pp. 266-269, which seems to put to rest any legitimate alternative claims. The only exception to the general agreement during the first decade is J.C. Viereck's edition of the song (New Orleans: P.P. Werlein, 1860), which was resolved in Firth, Pond & Co.'s favor, although during the Confederacy the copyright agreement was ignored by Southern publishers.
You mention Sacks and Sacks, and Abel. Not having the books, my question is, do they deal with contemporary "controversy", or are they claims made long afterward? In any case, should they be included in the books cited?
Finally, the most convincing evidence to me (as a music scholar and composer) is Nathan's punctilious citation of stylistic qualities that link the tune, at least, to previous ones by Emmett, as well as tracing the verse to Henry Bishop's "The Dashing White Sergeant" (parodied in the U.S. as "If I had a mule what wouldn't go..."), also used in the early minstrel song "Gumbo Chaff", as well as the "Scotch snap" of the chorus,p. 261. If your erudition extends to melodic/rhythmic analysis, I would urge you to take another look at Chapter 16, and reconsider your statement that there is a legitimate controversy.
There is nothing wrong with musical amateurs contributing (indeed, independent scholars' passion is one of Wikipedia's strengths), but unless there is a reasonable answer to Nathan's detailed analysis, I think it unfortunate that such opinions override it, as it fuels claims that the encyclopedia is a hotbed of un-supported convictions. Many college teachers (certainly not myself) refuse to accept Wikipedia citations from students for this reason.
Lastly, while I support the right of anyone to submit verses backing contrary opinions, I think the removal of the lyrics I supplied (Nathan p. 358) is arbitrary. Refute them if you like (this should not be too difficult, as Emmett seemed to constantly insert new verses), but don't excise them, because they are evidence to the fact that the song played to working-class xenophobia and racism in the Bowery, which was soon after to be the center of Copperheadism and the Three Corners (anti-war) riots. My point is that "Dixie" was not written in a vacuum, but reflected the era and mood of its audience. If you don't like the analysis, supply your own, but don't simply wipe mine away with a stroke of The Administrator's cursor. This is another charge increasingly leveled: Administrators feel they "own" the site, and less frequent/dedicated contributors are unwelcome.
Josephbyrd 15:38, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Dan Emmett. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:02, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Dan Emmett's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "grave":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 19:40, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
Umm, what? Is either of these dates well documented? Jim.henderson ( talk) 18:37, 9 September 2021 (UTC)