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There were also other nationalist myths of links to ancient civilizations, but these AFAIK none did reached the status of state policy.
bogdan 13:39, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Even though it's quite clear they are fake, but still get some attention:
http://www.gardianul.ro/index.php?a=mediacultura2005080106.xml
bogdan 13:43, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I think we should completly rewrite this article, removing all that is related to dacians... Actually real Protochronism wanted to demonstrate the diferences between romanians and other minorities in the country, and to do so, the dacian element was avoided, the greater importance was given to the roman origin. Because if romanians are "more dacians than roman", it means they have more in common with other people like slavians, hungarians, etc than we think.
This article is pure speculation. I think it is the fantasy of someone! Since when did Ceausescu wanted to glorify the Dacians?? Excepting it is written with a point of view against the dacians as a civilisation, insulting the dacians more than anything, it has almost nothing to do with real Protochronism and the raise of Romanian nationalism.
Moa3333 22:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Bogdan, I think they were celebrating sic: "Aproximativ 2050 de ani". :) Dahn 23:07, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Moa3333, you asked for citations and source. Well, here's an interesting quote from Katherine Verdery, see the book in the references section.
bogdan 23:28, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
When Ceausescu appealed to the "historians' front" in the mid-1970s to produce a new ten-volume synthesis of Romanian history, he was appealing to a profession recently fortified by the rehabilitation of persons sidelined during the Stalinist era. The discipline was peopled then by a variety of practitioners, more and less malleable, more and less ambitious. But just as with the Writers' Union in the same period, the leaders of the profession tended to be "reformers" and nonapparatchik professionals installed in strong positions during the late 1960s and early 1970s. These people, entrusted with producing the new Treatise of Romanian History, busily set about doing so according to their idea of proper professional norms.
By the time the first volume—the one that treated Romanian origins—was ready, however, dacomania had become the rage in Bucharest. Directors of institutes were instructed to change their subordinates' contributions to the Treatise, reflecting more Dacian and less Roman influence. Those responsible for the first volume refused to do so. In consequence, the typeset fonts for that volume were melted down and neither it nor any of the others—long since completed in the drawers of their compilers—appeared.
As conclusion, i think "dacomania" was how nothing to do with real dacians. "Its advocates prefer Dacology"? What about "its advocates prefer democracy?" (instead of totalitarism). Should we distroy the Casa Poporului, that was build by Ceausescu? Speaking about Napoleon Săvescu is also far from the subject.
If i look better, this article should speak more about how this theory was based on "who rules" and on "the power of the dacian nation". I think dacomania has nothing to do with real study of etno-genesis of ordinary people. I think Ceausescu never cared about continuity. He only wanted to know about who was the king, what was the nation, etc... this is completly out of the point, since romanians untill 14th century had no country, and before 106 they had only a country from time to time, when there was a danger, but most of the people were living most of the time in their own community.
I think dacomania NEVER evern tryed to know about what this people were doying, what language they were speaking, the only point was who was rulling them? what was the nation? Then of course, you have two strong nations (Burebista and Decebal) that were important. But this was all of it. There was no Protochronism involving the real dacians, the women and normal people. As a result there was no Protochronism about the ocntinuity of the culture of the real dacian people. On the contrary, ceausescu tryed to create a fake culture, based on industrialisation, and he even distroyed popular traditions in the villages! If popular traditions in the villages were dacian traditions, then why distroy them? I think this dacomania is not about the continuity of the dacian people in reality, it was mearly a way to introduce the celebration of a state is more than 2050 years old into rhe history of Romania, whitch has a short history as state. Nothing more.
I also do not think that all the interest in dacian civilisation is related to this. Even if Dacian were speaking a language close to latin, lingvists say that there are ONLY 4 original languages on the planet, and the language of dacians and latin are both original from a single language. But even if dacians were speaking a language close to latin, it has changed so much in time. I think it has nothing to do with romanian. No more than french has to do with latin, maybe even less because of the influences of other people around. If dacians were speaking a language close to dacians, i think it was becuase they originated from the same language (the mother of all languages), but BECAUSE of roman influences, it evolved in the same direction as latin. It does not mean that latin evolved from dacian, or that dacian evolved from latin. It may mean that dacian language was influenced by latin all the history, not only in the 165 years... It does mean that the both languages evolved from the same language, the original european language. And if you look now how little french is different from romanian after 2000 years, you can understand that if in year 2000 or 3000BC there was a common language, all the people that spoke that language and that were close to the roman empire were able to "import" all the variations of latin in order to make a language "compatible" with latin. I do not think that Ceausescu ment this when he speaked about Protochronism...
I sugest we say that Protochronism is only about the elements of power and of strong nation in Dacia that dacomania was about, not about the cultural elements or the language.
Moa3333 02:07, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
And now, there is a joke on the internet, intresting enaught (of course it is not true), explaining why the romanian language is the oldest in the world:
Well, of course, this is only a bad joke... Don't take it seriously, as i do...
Moa3333 02:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
"Moştenirea strămoşilor nu trebuie să ne creeze trăiri de mândrie deşartă, ci de bucurie molcomă, de datorie şi respect pentru ei, necesare în viitorul dorit de noi. Căci, cu cât avem mai mult suntem datori mai mult faţă de ceilalţi. Să dovedim aceasta cu înţelepciune şi dragoste de semeni." from here
If someoe who knows well english can translate this, i think it is far from the so caled "neo-nationalists" ideas...
Moa3333 05:13, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
As conclusion, i think "dacomania" was how nothing to do with real dacians.
If i look better, this article should speak more about how this theory was based on "who rules" and on "the power of the dacian nation".
As a result there was no Protochronism about the ocntinuity of the culture of the real dacian people.
Even if Dacian were speaking a language close to latin, lingvists say that there are ONLY 4 original languages on the planet.
Don't forget Ceausescu was completly mad, and nothing he ever sad was neither locical or part of a grater (conspiracy-)theory. He was speaking LIKE A CHILD.
I still don't belive Ceausescu and Protochronism was about continuity with dacians only.
Even if there were this tendecy when it was usefull, it was not in my opinion somthing that people were obliged to think, so it was not the real official position even if it might seem to be. In a communist country, more than one teory can be sustained simultaneously, and the rulers can choose either one depending on the situation.
"foreigners who had come from abroad to subjugate the indigenes" - this is more or less true historically speaking, even if dacians were atacking the romans from time to time. And therefore the continuity was "explained"? I think in the communist time there was nead to invent a story to explain the continuity... this was closed subject long before. By the way, the continuity was explained long before communism, since the creation of the Romanian state, even before... Those who explained this theory were the "Scoala Ardeleana" and others.
Moa3333 21:38, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
And befor speaking about daco-mania, what about post-communism RO-mania? Moa3333 21:45, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
I made a few modifications that alow me to erase the template from the top of the article. I have however kept this only for a little part of the article, witch i would like to see the sources... (like "dacians having no writing systems" versus "dacians not using offten their writing system because they used voice and did not found any economical interest in writing a lot - witch was very EXPENSIVE at that time") Moa3333 21:34, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I do not consider an insult the fact that i do not know english perfectly. I try my best to learn english, and Wikipedia is a good way to do so.
It is one of the reasons i contribute to Wikipedia. I will read reference, if there is a prove that dacians were not writing... Pardon, but "not having a writing system" is an insult to dacian people... oups, i mean to science. You cannot say this without a proove, but i will read the reference first.
If there are errors, gramatical, you can correct them (or i will have a look later on the article). Or would you like a diferent article? I would like to know what you think about the rest of the article, before editing the last chapter.
Please be polite: wikipedia is just a place to have fun, and to make jokes! Moa3333 22:15, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
What about dacian coins, from about 80 before JC. It seems there is something writen on them. Moa3333 18:04, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I realy think the way all this is explained is not very NPOV. I t gives the impression that everythink was "invented" by nationalists in order to explain a false théory. It is very bad to do that. Let's only take the phrase "Dacians easily adopted and subsequently influenced the religion which would have been preached to them by Saint Andrew (considered, doubtfuly, as the clear origin of modern-day Romanian Orthodoxy).". This phrase will induce people in error:
This is only one of the many thinks i don't like about false suppositions in this article. Moa3333 18:53, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok, i think i came to my last thing. Lets say we do not chage anything. But why put all together? The early nationalism, with the communist influecnes, and the current supposed continuation with Savescu etc...? What is this? Some conspiration-theory? Are they conspiring from the early 17 century to make Romania be 4000 old??
I think at the begining there was only a few marginal writers, this ides were not ment to do any harm, they were no mania, people were less scientific than today.
Usualy it was the romnian poets and writers who said that, not the historians (Hasdeu was a simple writer i think, not a real historian; Mihai Eminescu also, and the others); this ides were more light.
Communist times were more politicaly-related. And post-communist, they are either by ignorance, either by the will to make a business, either i think most of the people are just intrested to know more, and since noone is studying the dacians in the hole Roùmania, the only solution are the ones that have more strong belifs. I strongly do not think that this web sites that have more than 30000 unique visitors every month, all the 30000 are dacomaniacs, and this is because in the comentaries to the aticle, thare are many critics, some of them very severe. I think this is led by the people who want to know more about the dacians, and since the only one who do research on this and who have installed web sites with forums are Savescu and the other, people are comming there.
I think maybe the 18 century phenomen should be explaned as "natinalism of poets" or so. communism should be called protochronosm, and current web sites should be explained as a diferent aproach, where a few people who run the business (the web site, the researches, etc...) are influenced by old protochronism mmore or less.
Pure protochronism sould be limitated to communism time. ost people from to day explain this as abstract "let's suppose it is like this, and see what we can find, even if we found the hipothes is wrong". It is diferent than "his is the truth, let's see how we can prove it...". The first aproach is mmore schienitifc, as it is close to abstract thinking. This is the current trend, and we should not call it protochronism, as we should not call like this early natinoalism. Moa3333 20:03, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I think you're reading into your suspicions, and not the article itself. There is no mention of "conspiracy", and no indicator that people are collaborating. It's a "tendancy of cultural nationalism", which is to say "an attractive idea for differnt people in successive generations". And, again:
"the tendancy did not originate with him, nor was it ended by him"; i think this is wrong; you cannot say it is the same tendency now. I think tendency had two parts, first was the demistification, meaning that between 1990 and 2002 people wanted to forget about this and rejected any ideas.
The seccond period is begining just now. After people have rejected any ides related to dacians, now we want to find what is good and what is not good. We start with what we have in order to undestand what is good and what is not good.
On the other side, people involved here are using a lot of mistery, not because thay want to introduce confusion. They understand well that people are not dump, and will not take this as real scienitfic arguments. they d this because the same reason a holiwood movie will speak about dracula who eats blood! Not because it is true, but because it will make people come and see what could be true of.
Today resrches, even archeological, are melt with mistery, business, and at the end there are scientific aguments. But you nead also people, and people will not camo to your web ite if you do not tell them about how great the pharaons were, or how big Atlantida was, or how much dracula eated blood. Well, to people from USA, you can teel them that there are vamires to make them intrested with Romania, but to romanian people, this will not work!
I think Savscu is making a great job in making people intrested in the subject, even if it uses old misterious theoris. Every mean is good to obtain something, especialy when this something is to make people intrested again in history, especialy in pre-history and history of dacians. If not, people will never study the past, and we will not know more than what we know now.
Only very enthusiast people will come to this web sited, and noone will take him seriously 100%. Projects like the new wikidacia are ment to colaborative research. Moa3333 20:51, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, it was just launched this week i think (if i am not wrong) :) but, i would not contribute if the licence will not be GFDL. There is no reason to do so if i cannot import part of the articles in the wikipedia in romanian. What about we discuss about some other article now. Let's say Origins of romanian people. Because actually this was the article that i wanted to contribute to first. Moa3333 21:38, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I am sure that if Savescu do not soften their sayings in the future, they will loose support. But there are many people who agree on studying the dacians as they were: "the only country in the world that was able to fight the romans untill the seccond century, causing important damage to them".
Then, of course, they were not speaking latin, but barbarian who knows what. Don't forget lain was a barbarian language at the begining for the greecks. And romans were hating so much the dacians and loved them at the same time, as you can see in the name of the province: "Happy Dacia", name given by roman authorities.
When speaking about Bonaparte, he was banned because of insults most of the time, and vandalism. One thing i do not do. There are other intresting articles on wikipedia writen by romanians at least partially, for example this page about IDE is one of my favorite.
But now i undersand how it works all this. You are the most hard romanians. Many will go to Savescu's site. Other will go to various forums, with free speech. Some go to the wikipedia in romanian, and i can see the NPOV is much less enforced there, as the main goal seem to be to increese the number of articles first. There was a time when english articles were translated to romanian wikipedia, but now, as wikipedia.en is close to one million real articles, administrators here have hardened the NPOV, and now new articles are first written on wikipedia in romanian, and then translated to wikipedia in english, with a few modifications like erasing all less serious arguments. I can see now that the most "orthodox" editors have migrated from the wikipedia in romanian here, where they can restrict any doutfull opinion, that has a few NPOV... I do not say this is a bad thing, it only demonstrated the change of migration, now pages migrate from wikipedia.ro to wikipedia.en... Moa3333 23:17, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Re: the recently added Hungarian examples.
It should be noted that vast majority of the Hu population is not interested in these theories, any Hungarian, if asked, would say that Hungarians are a Finno-Ugric people, having been arrived at the Carpathian Basin in 896. I, as a Hungarian, have never heard of most of the "other strange theories" added by Greier.
He did not include, however, an unconfirmed myth that really exists among many Székelys - I wonder if he can find it. :-) If not, I will include it later on.
One more thing: these theories have never been supported by any significant political party, or significant political movement in the last 60 years.
--
KIDB
10:16, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Verdery's book, written around 1989, published 1991, uses the word "Dacomania" twice, so it's not very new. bogdan 22:06, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I took this part out: Protochronism was an official ideology in Romania, while in Hungary, these are only the theories of some individual crack-pots, therefore irelevant to this article.
bogdan 21:59, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Dahn, Bogdan, I think that in your desire to be... I don`t know how to put it... to appear "modern", "open-minded", "european" or something like that, you are merely looking silly... I don`t know why. Maybe you just have a minority complex, not regarding what happened two thousand years ago, but about what is happening now. You have a minority complex in regard to how Romania is perceived outside it`s borders, and you have an honest intention to change that, to show that Romania is as "european" and "modern" as it can be. However, you are crossing the border, know what I mean? You go from one extreme, to the other... For God`s sake, who and more important why does someone makes an article about "Romanian protochronsim"... I really don`t get it... You know, there is an universal saying: Dirty laundry are washed in family...
Anyway, as the article is now, the meaning of "Protochronism" is rather obscure. You can`t make even a description based on comparative characterisation using the rest of what I am being told is an equivalent.
You just cant compare an exageration with an invention. While the "dacomania" is based on something firm, being merely an exageration, or as you say, a trend (noticed in several versions of Romanian nationalism) to ascribe a unique quality to the Dacians and their civilization. Usually glossing over the fact that Dacian society lacked such basic instruments as a writing system, protochronists attempt to prove either that Dacians had a major part.... etc, Hoxha`s theories were just that: theories. For God`s sake, what the hell does the etruscan-albanian connection have to do with the dacian-romanian connection. I don`t know, maybe I`m just plain stupid, but I think that you`re wasted... Now we get to the part which I personally think it`s just grose: Protochronism was an official ideology. WTF???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? What do you mean by official? Was it in the constitution that dacians used writing? Was it ever is a history book? Did in atheist Communist Romanian ever such claims about the connection between the supposed monotheism of the mysterious Zalmoxis cult and Christianity, in the belief that Dacians easily adopted and subsequently influenced the religion which would have been preached to them by Saint Andrew (considered, doubtfuly, as the clear origin of modern-day Romanian Orthodoxy)? And as we contine through the article, it get`s even more pathetic. While first it says that it the official ideology (you still haven`t realised what you are stating here, do you?), it than explains how this "official ideology" is continuated... by....by a dude from America. What sources are you using? Verdery and a link to a page which has the same validity as the link I gaved. About that, I still see no reason for deleting the Hungarian equivalent. You use the same lame, almost idiotic reason of official ideology... While I still see no prove for this claim of official ideology, I see Internet sites like this, or this, or [http://www.hunmagyar.org/ this]. The same kind of link are used by you to show prominent characteristics of Romanian Protochronism.
With this I agree. In fact, Zhivkov was close to the thruth, but is simply was not exactly how he puted it. While there is no need to polemic that some/many/few/a lot of bulgarians are ultimatelly drawn from thracians, and bulgarian traditional culture is of ultimatelly of thracian origin, there are much more to be said about what Bulgarians mean (at least more than can be sayd about Romanians). The same about Persians.
Again, how can you compare someting that you call imagery, with something which altough exageratered, or POVist to use Wikipedia parlance, is still a fact: the dacian origin of Romanians, Romanian traditions, Romanian customs, Romanian wearing, etc. More than that, even you call it Dacomania, Daco-mania, that is an obsession, not a complete phantasmagoria, as the direct link between Sumerians and Saddam. If there were claims of direct descendancy of Romanians from the Cucutenians or from Hamangians, than I would agree that you are completely right to make this article.
Man, and even if you were entirelly right, beacuse partially you are, as indeed there is an abashment from people like Savescu, this was not the way to do it. You don`t realise it do you. Wikipedia is perhaps one of the most important and powerfool tools to inform in these times, so powerfull that it can be safely said that it could also be used as a manipulating tool. So, while others "inform", you thought you shoud too, right? No, you didn`t inform nothing, didn`t accomplished nothing with this article. Those "dacomaniacs" will still be there, just that they will be regarded with pathetism. So much, that anything related to them, would be regarded as such: that is, YOUR HISTORY! With this article you`ve just proved that you (you, not other romanians) do have an inferiority complex... you shoud of remembered: rufele murdare se spala in familie... greier 08:20, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not very sure, if "popularity gains" are factual accurate. Mr. Napoleon Savescu and his collegues provide a loud and grotesque presence, though I wouldn't equate this to a gain in popularity. Actually, both instances which could decide upon popularity in this case - the audience at large and the scientific community - ignore royally the dacomaniac agitation. To make the passage from Ceausescu to present days, a more moderate formulation than "popularity gains" would probably not be such a misplaced ideea.-- Vintila Barbu 17:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
it's ok (I would have added that these "circles" are marginal, to say the least, but it's too POV); good point of having referenced the association between autarky and protocronism ! wenn I find time, I'd like to go a little into a conceptual distinction of "protocronism", since there are however worlds between the cutural attitude suggested by Papu and the semi-educated élucubrations of a Napoleon Savulescu -- Vintila Barbu 17:50, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe that another term used for this is "Daco-Romanian continuity", but I don't see that in the article. If you Google '"Daco-Romanian continuity" -wikipedia' you'll see that while there are not a ton of hits, they are mostly from pretty solid sources. - Jmabel | Talk 01:04, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
...or, to put it in other words, Joe: while "Daco-Roman continuity" is a sound historical model (the best we have by now), the "Dacian connection" (i.e. glorification of an alleged pure Dacian ancestry and of a no less superior Dacian civilization) is but a delirious phantasmagoria where semi-educated guesses meet ignorance and pretences meet obscure agendas. Except one or two genuine scientists having constructed fallacious models some 100 years ago (it happens), the rest of the present "Dacomaniacs" belongs to that part of the audience enclined to seek solutions in esoterics, mysteries and with no scientific background.
In contrast, the "Daco-Roman continuity" is an historical model. As you very well know, history deals with the reconstruction of the past. The remoter that past, the frailer and riskier the model. For the Romanian ethnogenesis, we don't have anything better than "continuity". A good model uses a minimum of axioms to generate a maximum of theorems and the continuity model does it better as other models. It has an increased explanatory force with a minimum of premises.
Besides, the term "Daco-Roman continuity" is a kind of straw-man argument, since no serious historian has ever stated a theory called "Daco-Roman continuity". Actually, historians (not only Romanian) have constructed various and complex models having in common the ideea of a lasting presence of Romanized population north of the lower Danube. Adversaries have focused exclusively on this ideea, reducing complex historical models to simplist allegations, in order to better refute them all. Visiting some models of "continuity" would show how plausible and interpretive they are and how far from reductionist exaggeration.
BTW, the whole thing's name is "Daco-Roman" and not "Daco-Romanian" continuity as it absurdly stays in the WP "in-depth" article, which, BTW again, is very weak an article, which reduces 150 years of historical research to a kind of quarrel between "continuitionists" and "immigrationists" - embarrassing ! To subsume the various and complex historical models produced by historians under the terms "continuity/migration theory" is oversimplification - a strategy probably efficient in a propaganda war, yet not very helpful in an encyclopedic project.-- Vintila Barbu 16:04, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Do we have any sources for this section? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protochronism#Modern-day_equivalents Or is it the author who is speculating? Is that stuff mentioned in any of the books listed in the reference section? -- Thus Spake Anittas 15:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems that while writing about protochronism here may lead to debate, touching the subject on ro.wiki leads to reactions beyond the borders of wikipedia. Check this out [2] and this [3]. Plinul cel tanar 11:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
The context is wrong. Iran is a direct cultural and more importanly lingustic successor of the ancient Persian states starting from the Achaemenids. Nothing questionable about that. If the Reza Pahlavi claimed descent from the Elamites it would make sense.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 03:34, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I find some of the language on this page problematic.
1. there are usages such as "enigmatic Dacian language" and "mysterious Zalmoxis cult". Daican language is not enigmatic, it's simply not known, since it was never written. The Dacian's (polytheistic generally but at least in part monolatrist, according to mainstream historians) religion is again, a suject that's not really 100% known, but to call it mysterious it's kind of unusual. Such words are not really NPOV, though I'm not really sure exaclty what they are intended to suggest.
2. the official stance of the Church is that St. Andrew preached in Dobrudja (which is quite probable), and therefore he is the patron Saint of the Church of Romania. Nothing about him magically converting ALL the population of Moesia and Dacia, about how Vlachs were eventually converted or about him going anywhere else inland into Moesia (or further into Dacia) -- only that he preached in the heavily Hellenophonic Dobrudja, a region that for a long time was part of the late Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman Empires. Now why they thought this to be reason for considering the Apostle the Patron Saint of Romania is not really a historical or political debate is it (more like a religious one)? So I don't really see why mention of this is important to the article, because it's not really related to Dacomania, is it, since it was most probably Romans and Hellenophones/Greeks that St. Andrew preached to if he ever went to Dobrudja (which accorning to tradition he did). Now, Dacomania was about the Dacians and was created in the not exaclty Christian-friendly environment of late Romanian communism.
I will admit that after Dacomania and protochronism went out of fashion some intellectuals found refuge one way or another around the Church. I will also admit that Dacomania and protochronism sometime have a religious (Christian or not) eloement to them. But to advance the idea that the entire Church is protochronist and to call that its official stance is kind of EXTREME. In my humble view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omulurimaru ( talk • contribs) 13:30, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
Does this term exist in English? Is it being used? -- Thus Spake Anittas 22:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I would agree, as a Brit, that the term is a coinage in English. This doesn't mean it isn't valid, in the context of Romanian historiography, as long as its meaning is explained. There are many precedents I can think of, for example the term "lustration" as applied to a political issue, which recently came from Polish. It might be worth looking at alternative formulations, such as "re-writing history" or "myths of national origins" - but protochronism sounds cleverer, (in that slightly tiresome US way beloved of IT specialists and similar creatures!)It can still stand though. It was actually almost more interesting to read the talk page, and the discussions/rants it provoked. All that stuff about "not washing your dirty laundry in public" - which presupposes that foreigners would be gullible or not sufficiently interested to question what they are told about Romanian history by Romanians. Toroboro 11:50, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh well, a bit late to this conversation, I've edited the lead to indicated the term's purely Romanian origin and to what it refers.
PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►
TALK
19:16, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
The article for Protochronism is written from an obvious non-neuntral point of view, full of hate rhetoric. The protochronism concept by itself is outdated and linked to Socialism and Communism. Many of the new authors deemed protochronists are living and have careers outside Romania, in democratic and open-minded societies which encourage thinking outside the box. While some of their accusers are still even today in the same structures of Romanian academia that promoted Protochronism during Nicolae Ceauşescu and which barely changed their views or created any quality research in the last 20 years. The hypocrisy is huge. Terms like Dacoman, although ridiculous and pejorative, may make more sense if at all. The article is also a platform for absorbing other articles like Dacian script, based on very subjective claims that all the researchers behind those distinct theories described there are unqualified and protochronists. Above all, this has become a place for people to dump their hate and venom against whomever they hate or disagree with in the Dacian history topic, based on personal, subjective reasons. I don't find it worthy of Wikipedia, it is limited to Romanian space and doesn't bring any good to anyone. Keep an open mind. -- Codrin.B ( talk) 21:42, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
Quite frankly I've never seen more polemics about "who are we? really?" than here. Lecturing each other (Dahn, my perception) really is not helpful (and as I recall you and I have had some interesting exchanges on Romanians versus Moldavians). As for Codrin's rhetorical but with non-rhetorical implications questions, the point is valid as to why exploration of certain aspects of ancient roots are ridiculed outright (that is, dismissed, case seemingly proven and closed) in one case [ROMANIA] but pursued as an area of inquiry in another [BULGARIA]. When it comes to our (collective) origins, we still don't know what we don't know. I do have to wonder, with regard to Romanians, if areas of inquiry aren't being dismissed out of hand because the zenith of their pursuit is associated with a defunct totalitarian regime. (Yes, I've read the four theories, do I hear five?)
PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►
TALK
19:45, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
Just wanted to leave my thanks for all the work that went into this article (and my opinion). Although I don't think the article is terrible good at the moment, it really is useful. It's just good to have something in English at all. I wish I could improve it, but I don't have any good sources either. MauriceM3 ( talk) 15:29, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
There were also other nationalist myths of links to ancient civilizations, but these AFAIK none did reached the status of state policy.
bogdan 13:39, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Even though it's quite clear they are fake, but still get some attention:
http://www.gardianul.ro/index.php?a=mediacultura2005080106.xml
bogdan 13:43, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I think we should completly rewrite this article, removing all that is related to dacians... Actually real Protochronism wanted to demonstrate the diferences between romanians and other minorities in the country, and to do so, the dacian element was avoided, the greater importance was given to the roman origin. Because if romanians are "more dacians than roman", it means they have more in common with other people like slavians, hungarians, etc than we think.
This article is pure speculation. I think it is the fantasy of someone! Since when did Ceausescu wanted to glorify the Dacians?? Excepting it is written with a point of view against the dacians as a civilisation, insulting the dacians more than anything, it has almost nothing to do with real Protochronism and the raise of Romanian nationalism.
Moa3333 22:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Bogdan, I think they were celebrating sic: "Aproximativ 2050 de ani". :) Dahn 23:07, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Moa3333, you asked for citations and source. Well, here's an interesting quote from Katherine Verdery, see the book in the references section.
bogdan 23:28, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
When Ceausescu appealed to the "historians' front" in the mid-1970s to produce a new ten-volume synthesis of Romanian history, he was appealing to a profession recently fortified by the rehabilitation of persons sidelined during the Stalinist era. The discipline was peopled then by a variety of practitioners, more and less malleable, more and less ambitious. But just as with the Writers' Union in the same period, the leaders of the profession tended to be "reformers" and nonapparatchik professionals installed in strong positions during the late 1960s and early 1970s. These people, entrusted with producing the new Treatise of Romanian History, busily set about doing so according to their idea of proper professional norms.
By the time the first volume—the one that treated Romanian origins—was ready, however, dacomania had become the rage in Bucharest. Directors of institutes were instructed to change their subordinates' contributions to the Treatise, reflecting more Dacian and less Roman influence. Those responsible for the first volume refused to do so. In consequence, the typeset fonts for that volume were melted down and neither it nor any of the others—long since completed in the drawers of their compilers—appeared.
As conclusion, i think "dacomania" was how nothing to do with real dacians. "Its advocates prefer Dacology"? What about "its advocates prefer democracy?" (instead of totalitarism). Should we distroy the Casa Poporului, that was build by Ceausescu? Speaking about Napoleon Săvescu is also far from the subject.
If i look better, this article should speak more about how this theory was based on "who rules" and on "the power of the dacian nation". I think dacomania has nothing to do with real study of etno-genesis of ordinary people. I think Ceausescu never cared about continuity. He only wanted to know about who was the king, what was the nation, etc... this is completly out of the point, since romanians untill 14th century had no country, and before 106 they had only a country from time to time, when there was a danger, but most of the people were living most of the time in their own community.
I think dacomania NEVER evern tryed to know about what this people were doying, what language they were speaking, the only point was who was rulling them? what was the nation? Then of course, you have two strong nations (Burebista and Decebal) that were important. But this was all of it. There was no Protochronism involving the real dacians, the women and normal people. As a result there was no Protochronism about the ocntinuity of the culture of the real dacian people. On the contrary, ceausescu tryed to create a fake culture, based on industrialisation, and he even distroyed popular traditions in the villages! If popular traditions in the villages were dacian traditions, then why distroy them? I think this dacomania is not about the continuity of the dacian people in reality, it was mearly a way to introduce the celebration of a state is more than 2050 years old into rhe history of Romania, whitch has a short history as state. Nothing more.
I also do not think that all the interest in dacian civilisation is related to this. Even if Dacian were speaking a language close to latin, lingvists say that there are ONLY 4 original languages on the planet, and the language of dacians and latin are both original from a single language. But even if dacians were speaking a language close to latin, it has changed so much in time. I think it has nothing to do with romanian. No more than french has to do with latin, maybe even less because of the influences of other people around. If dacians were speaking a language close to dacians, i think it was becuase they originated from the same language (the mother of all languages), but BECAUSE of roman influences, it evolved in the same direction as latin. It does not mean that latin evolved from dacian, or that dacian evolved from latin. It may mean that dacian language was influenced by latin all the history, not only in the 165 years... It does mean that the both languages evolved from the same language, the original european language. And if you look now how little french is different from romanian after 2000 years, you can understand that if in year 2000 or 3000BC there was a common language, all the people that spoke that language and that were close to the roman empire were able to "import" all the variations of latin in order to make a language "compatible" with latin. I do not think that Ceausescu ment this when he speaked about Protochronism...
I sugest we say that Protochronism is only about the elements of power and of strong nation in Dacia that dacomania was about, not about the cultural elements or the language.
Moa3333 02:07, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
And now, there is a joke on the internet, intresting enaught (of course it is not true), explaining why the romanian language is the oldest in the world:
Well, of course, this is only a bad joke... Don't take it seriously, as i do...
Moa3333 02:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
"Moştenirea strămoşilor nu trebuie să ne creeze trăiri de mândrie deşartă, ci de bucurie molcomă, de datorie şi respect pentru ei, necesare în viitorul dorit de noi. Căci, cu cât avem mai mult suntem datori mai mult faţă de ceilalţi. Să dovedim aceasta cu înţelepciune şi dragoste de semeni." from here
If someoe who knows well english can translate this, i think it is far from the so caled "neo-nationalists" ideas...
Moa3333 05:13, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
As conclusion, i think "dacomania" was how nothing to do with real dacians.
If i look better, this article should speak more about how this theory was based on "who rules" and on "the power of the dacian nation".
As a result there was no Protochronism about the ocntinuity of the culture of the real dacian people.
Even if Dacian were speaking a language close to latin, lingvists say that there are ONLY 4 original languages on the planet.
Don't forget Ceausescu was completly mad, and nothing he ever sad was neither locical or part of a grater (conspiracy-)theory. He was speaking LIKE A CHILD.
I still don't belive Ceausescu and Protochronism was about continuity with dacians only.
Even if there were this tendecy when it was usefull, it was not in my opinion somthing that people were obliged to think, so it was not the real official position even if it might seem to be. In a communist country, more than one teory can be sustained simultaneously, and the rulers can choose either one depending on the situation.
"foreigners who had come from abroad to subjugate the indigenes" - this is more or less true historically speaking, even if dacians were atacking the romans from time to time. And therefore the continuity was "explained"? I think in the communist time there was nead to invent a story to explain the continuity... this was closed subject long before. By the way, the continuity was explained long before communism, since the creation of the Romanian state, even before... Those who explained this theory were the "Scoala Ardeleana" and others.
Moa3333 21:38, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
And befor speaking about daco-mania, what about post-communism RO-mania? Moa3333 21:45, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
I made a few modifications that alow me to erase the template from the top of the article. I have however kept this only for a little part of the article, witch i would like to see the sources... (like "dacians having no writing systems" versus "dacians not using offten their writing system because they used voice and did not found any economical interest in writing a lot - witch was very EXPENSIVE at that time") Moa3333 21:34, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I do not consider an insult the fact that i do not know english perfectly. I try my best to learn english, and Wikipedia is a good way to do so.
It is one of the reasons i contribute to Wikipedia. I will read reference, if there is a prove that dacians were not writing... Pardon, but "not having a writing system" is an insult to dacian people... oups, i mean to science. You cannot say this without a proove, but i will read the reference first.
If there are errors, gramatical, you can correct them (or i will have a look later on the article). Or would you like a diferent article? I would like to know what you think about the rest of the article, before editing the last chapter.
Please be polite: wikipedia is just a place to have fun, and to make jokes! Moa3333 22:15, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
What about dacian coins, from about 80 before JC. It seems there is something writen on them. Moa3333 18:04, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I realy think the way all this is explained is not very NPOV. I t gives the impression that everythink was "invented" by nationalists in order to explain a false théory. It is very bad to do that. Let's only take the phrase "Dacians easily adopted and subsequently influenced the religion which would have been preached to them by Saint Andrew (considered, doubtfuly, as the clear origin of modern-day Romanian Orthodoxy).". This phrase will induce people in error:
This is only one of the many thinks i don't like about false suppositions in this article. Moa3333 18:53, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok, i think i came to my last thing. Lets say we do not chage anything. But why put all together? The early nationalism, with the communist influecnes, and the current supposed continuation with Savescu etc...? What is this? Some conspiration-theory? Are they conspiring from the early 17 century to make Romania be 4000 old??
I think at the begining there was only a few marginal writers, this ides were not ment to do any harm, they were no mania, people were less scientific than today.
Usualy it was the romnian poets and writers who said that, not the historians (Hasdeu was a simple writer i think, not a real historian; Mihai Eminescu also, and the others); this ides were more light.
Communist times were more politicaly-related. And post-communist, they are either by ignorance, either by the will to make a business, either i think most of the people are just intrested to know more, and since noone is studying the dacians in the hole Roùmania, the only solution are the ones that have more strong belifs. I strongly do not think that this web sites that have more than 30000 unique visitors every month, all the 30000 are dacomaniacs, and this is because in the comentaries to the aticle, thare are many critics, some of them very severe. I think this is led by the people who want to know more about the dacians, and since the only one who do research on this and who have installed web sites with forums are Savescu and the other, people are comming there.
I think maybe the 18 century phenomen should be explaned as "natinalism of poets" or so. communism should be called protochronosm, and current web sites should be explained as a diferent aproach, where a few people who run the business (the web site, the researches, etc...) are influenced by old protochronism mmore or less.
Pure protochronism sould be limitated to communism time. ost people from to day explain this as abstract "let's suppose it is like this, and see what we can find, even if we found the hipothes is wrong". It is diferent than "his is the truth, let's see how we can prove it...". The first aproach is mmore schienitifc, as it is close to abstract thinking. This is the current trend, and we should not call it protochronism, as we should not call like this early natinoalism. Moa3333 20:03, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I think you're reading into your suspicions, and not the article itself. There is no mention of "conspiracy", and no indicator that people are collaborating. It's a "tendancy of cultural nationalism", which is to say "an attractive idea for differnt people in successive generations". And, again:
"the tendancy did not originate with him, nor was it ended by him"; i think this is wrong; you cannot say it is the same tendency now. I think tendency had two parts, first was the demistification, meaning that between 1990 and 2002 people wanted to forget about this and rejected any ideas.
The seccond period is begining just now. After people have rejected any ides related to dacians, now we want to find what is good and what is not good. We start with what we have in order to undestand what is good and what is not good.
On the other side, people involved here are using a lot of mistery, not because thay want to introduce confusion. They understand well that people are not dump, and will not take this as real scienitfic arguments. they d this because the same reason a holiwood movie will speak about dracula who eats blood! Not because it is true, but because it will make people come and see what could be true of.
Today resrches, even archeological, are melt with mistery, business, and at the end there are scientific aguments. But you nead also people, and people will not camo to your web ite if you do not tell them about how great the pharaons were, or how big Atlantida was, or how much dracula eated blood. Well, to people from USA, you can teel them that there are vamires to make them intrested with Romania, but to romanian people, this will not work!
I think Savscu is making a great job in making people intrested in the subject, even if it uses old misterious theoris. Every mean is good to obtain something, especialy when this something is to make people intrested again in history, especialy in pre-history and history of dacians. If not, people will never study the past, and we will not know more than what we know now.
Only very enthusiast people will come to this web sited, and noone will take him seriously 100%. Projects like the new wikidacia are ment to colaborative research. Moa3333 20:51, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, it was just launched this week i think (if i am not wrong) :) but, i would not contribute if the licence will not be GFDL. There is no reason to do so if i cannot import part of the articles in the wikipedia in romanian. What about we discuss about some other article now. Let's say Origins of romanian people. Because actually this was the article that i wanted to contribute to first. Moa3333 21:38, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I am sure that if Savescu do not soften their sayings in the future, they will loose support. But there are many people who agree on studying the dacians as they were: "the only country in the world that was able to fight the romans untill the seccond century, causing important damage to them".
Then, of course, they were not speaking latin, but barbarian who knows what. Don't forget lain was a barbarian language at the begining for the greecks. And romans were hating so much the dacians and loved them at the same time, as you can see in the name of the province: "Happy Dacia", name given by roman authorities.
When speaking about Bonaparte, he was banned because of insults most of the time, and vandalism. One thing i do not do. There are other intresting articles on wikipedia writen by romanians at least partially, for example this page about IDE is one of my favorite.
But now i undersand how it works all this. You are the most hard romanians. Many will go to Savescu's site. Other will go to various forums, with free speech. Some go to the wikipedia in romanian, and i can see the NPOV is much less enforced there, as the main goal seem to be to increese the number of articles first. There was a time when english articles were translated to romanian wikipedia, but now, as wikipedia.en is close to one million real articles, administrators here have hardened the NPOV, and now new articles are first written on wikipedia in romanian, and then translated to wikipedia in english, with a few modifications like erasing all less serious arguments. I can see now that the most "orthodox" editors have migrated from the wikipedia in romanian here, where they can restrict any doutfull opinion, that has a few NPOV... I do not say this is a bad thing, it only demonstrated the change of migration, now pages migrate from wikipedia.ro to wikipedia.en... Moa3333 23:17, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Re: the recently added Hungarian examples.
It should be noted that vast majority of the Hu population is not interested in these theories, any Hungarian, if asked, would say that Hungarians are a Finno-Ugric people, having been arrived at the Carpathian Basin in 896. I, as a Hungarian, have never heard of most of the "other strange theories" added by Greier.
He did not include, however, an unconfirmed myth that really exists among many Székelys - I wonder if he can find it. :-) If not, I will include it later on.
One more thing: these theories have never been supported by any significant political party, or significant political movement in the last 60 years.
--
KIDB
10:16, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Verdery's book, written around 1989, published 1991, uses the word "Dacomania" twice, so it's not very new. bogdan 22:06, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I took this part out: Protochronism was an official ideology in Romania, while in Hungary, these are only the theories of some individual crack-pots, therefore irelevant to this article.
bogdan 21:59, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Dahn, Bogdan, I think that in your desire to be... I don`t know how to put it... to appear "modern", "open-minded", "european" or something like that, you are merely looking silly... I don`t know why. Maybe you just have a minority complex, not regarding what happened two thousand years ago, but about what is happening now. You have a minority complex in regard to how Romania is perceived outside it`s borders, and you have an honest intention to change that, to show that Romania is as "european" and "modern" as it can be. However, you are crossing the border, know what I mean? You go from one extreme, to the other... For God`s sake, who and more important why does someone makes an article about "Romanian protochronsim"... I really don`t get it... You know, there is an universal saying: Dirty laundry are washed in family...
Anyway, as the article is now, the meaning of "Protochronism" is rather obscure. You can`t make even a description based on comparative characterisation using the rest of what I am being told is an equivalent.
You just cant compare an exageration with an invention. While the "dacomania" is based on something firm, being merely an exageration, or as you say, a trend (noticed in several versions of Romanian nationalism) to ascribe a unique quality to the Dacians and their civilization. Usually glossing over the fact that Dacian society lacked such basic instruments as a writing system, protochronists attempt to prove either that Dacians had a major part.... etc, Hoxha`s theories were just that: theories. For God`s sake, what the hell does the etruscan-albanian connection have to do with the dacian-romanian connection. I don`t know, maybe I`m just plain stupid, but I think that you`re wasted... Now we get to the part which I personally think it`s just grose: Protochronism was an official ideology. WTF???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? What do you mean by official? Was it in the constitution that dacians used writing? Was it ever is a history book? Did in atheist Communist Romanian ever such claims about the connection between the supposed monotheism of the mysterious Zalmoxis cult and Christianity, in the belief that Dacians easily adopted and subsequently influenced the religion which would have been preached to them by Saint Andrew (considered, doubtfuly, as the clear origin of modern-day Romanian Orthodoxy)? And as we contine through the article, it get`s even more pathetic. While first it says that it the official ideology (you still haven`t realised what you are stating here, do you?), it than explains how this "official ideology" is continuated... by....by a dude from America. What sources are you using? Verdery and a link to a page which has the same validity as the link I gaved. About that, I still see no reason for deleting the Hungarian equivalent. You use the same lame, almost idiotic reason of official ideology... While I still see no prove for this claim of official ideology, I see Internet sites like this, or this, or [http://www.hunmagyar.org/ this]. The same kind of link are used by you to show prominent characteristics of Romanian Protochronism.
With this I agree. In fact, Zhivkov was close to the thruth, but is simply was not exactly how he puted it. While there is no need to polemic that some/many/few/a lot of bulgarians are ultimatelly drawn from thracians, and bulgarian traditional culture is of ultimatelly of thracian origin, there are much more to be said about what Bulgarians mean (at least more than can be sayd about Romanians). The same about Persians.
Again, how can you compare someting that you call imagery, with something which altough exageratered, or POVist to use Wikipedia parlance, is still a fact: the dacian origin of Romanians, Romanian traditions, Romanian customs, Romanian wearing, etc. More than that, even you call it Dacomania, Daco-mania, that is an obsession, not a complete phantasmagoria, as the direct link between Sumerians and Saddam. If there were claims of direct descendancy of Romanians from the Cucutenians or from Hamangians, than I would agree that you are completely right to make this article.
Man, and even if you were entirelly right, beacuse partially you are, as indeed there is an abashment from people like Savescu, this was not the way to do it. You don`t realise it do you. Wikipedia is perhaps one of the most important and powerfool tools to inform in these times, so powerfull that it can be safely said that it could also be used as a manipulating tool. So, while others "inform", you thought you shoud too, right? No, you didn`t inform nothing, didn`t accomplished nothing with this article. Those "dacomaniacs" will still be there, just that they will be regarded with pathetism. So much, that anything related to them, would be regarded as such: that is, YOUR HISTORY! With this article you`ve just proved that you (you, not other romanians) do have an inferiority complex... you shoud of remembered: rufele murdare se spala in familie... greier 08:20, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not very sure, if "popularity gains" are factual accurate. Mr. Napoleon Savescu and his collegues provide a loud and grotesque presence, though I wouldn't equate this to a gain in popularity. Actually, both instances which could decide upon popularity in this case - the audience at large and the scientific community - ignore royally the dacomaniac agitation. To make the passage from Ceausescu to present days, a more moderate formulation than "popularity gains" would probably not be such a misplaced ideea.-- Vintila Barbu 17:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
it's ok (I would have added that these "circles" are marginal, to say the least, but it's too POV); good point of having referenced the association between autarky and protocronism ! wenn I find time, I'd like to go a little into a conceptual distinction of "protocronism", since there are however worlds between the cutural attitude suggested by Papu and the semi-educated élucubrations of a Napoleon Savulescu -- Vintila Barbu 17:50, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe that another term used for this is "Daco-Romanian continuity", but I don't see that in the article. If you Google '"Daco-Romanian continuity" -wikipedia' you'll see that while there are not a ton of hits, they are mostly from pretty solid sources. - Jmabel | Talk 01:04, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
...or, to put it in other words, Joe: while "Daco-Roman continuity" is a sound historical model (the best we have by now), the "Dacian connection" (i.e. glorification of an alleged pure Dacian ancestry and of a no less superior Dacian civilization) is but a delirious phantasmagoria where semi-educated guesses meet ignorance and pretences meet obscure agendas. Except one or two genuine scientists having constructed fallacious models some 100 years ago (it happens), the rest of the present "Dacomaniacs" belongs to that part of the audience enclined to seek solutions in esoterics, mysteries and with no scientific background.
In contrast, the "Daco-Roman continuity" is an historical model. As you very well know, history deals with the reconstruction of the past. The remoter that past, the frailer and riskier the model. For the Romanian ethnogenesis, we don't have anything better than "continuity". A good model uses a minimum of axioms to generate a maximum of theorems and the continuity model does it better as other models. It has an increased explanatory force with a minimum of premises.
Besides, the term "Daco-Roman continuity" is a kind of straw-man argument, since no serious historian has ever stated a theory called "Daco-Roman continuity". Actually, historians (not only Romanian) have constructed various and complex models having in common the ideea of a lasting presence of Romanized population north of the lower Danube. Adversaries have focused exclusively on this ideea, reducing complex historical models to simplist allegations, in order to better refute them all. Visiting some models of "continuity" would show how plausible and interpretive they are and how far from reductionist exaggeration.
BTW, the whole thing's name is "Daco-Roman" and not "Daco-Romanian" continuity as it absurdly stays in the WP "in-depth" article, which, BTW again, is very weak an article, which reduces 150 years of historical research to a kind of quarrel between "continuitionists" and "immigrationists" - embarrassing ! To subsume the various and complex historical models produced by historians under the terms "continuity/migration theory" is oversimplification - a strategy probably efficient in a propaganda war, yet not very helpful in an encyclopedic project.-- Vintila Barbu 16:04, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Do we have any sources for this section? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protochronism#Modern-day_equivalents Or is it the author who is speculating? Is that stuff mentioned in any of the books listed in the reference section? -- Thus Spake Anittas 15:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems that while writing about protochronism here may lead to debate, touching the subject on ro.wiki leads to reactions beyond the borders of wikipedia. Check this out [2] and this [3]. Plinul cel tanar 11:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
The context is wrong. Iran is a direct cultural and more importanly lingustic successor of the ancient Persian states starting from the Achaemenids. Nothing questionable about that. If the Reza Pahlavi claimed descent from the Elamites it would make sense.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 03:34, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I find some of the language on this page problematic.
1. there are usages such as "enigmatic Dacian language" and "mysterious Zalmoxis cult". Daican language is not enigmatic, it's simply not known, since it was never written. The Dacian's (polytheistic generally but at least in part monolatrist, according to mainstream historians) religion is again, a suject that's not really 100% known, but to call it mysterious it's kind of unusual. Such words are not really NPOV, though I'm not really sure exaclty what they are intended to suggest.
2. the official stance of the Church is that St. Andrew preached in Dobrudja (which is quite probable), and therefore he is the patron Saint of the Church of Romania. Nothing about him magically converting ALL the population of Moesia and Dacia, about how Vlachs were eventually converted or about him going anywhere else inland into Moesia (or further into Dacia) -- only that he preached in the heavily Hellenophonic Dobrudja, a region that for a long time was part of the late Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman Empires. Now why they thought this to be reason for considering the Apostle the Patron Saint of Romania is not really a historical or political debate is it (more like a religious one)? So I don't really see why mention of this is important to the article, because it's not really related to Dacomania, is it, since it was most probably Romans and Hellenophones/Greeks that St. Andrew preached to if he ever went to Dobrudja (which accorning to tradition he did). Now, Dacomania was about the Dacians and was created in the not exaclty Christian-friendly environment of late Romanian communism.
I will admit that after Dacomania and protochronism went out of fashion some intellectuals found refuge one way or another around the Church. I will also admit that Dacomania and protochronism sometime have a religious (Christian or not) eloement to them. But to advance the idea that the entire Church is protochronist and to call that its official stance is kind of EXTREME. In my humble view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omulurimaru ( talk • contribs) 13:30, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
Does this term exist in English? Is it being used? -- Thus Spake Anittas 22:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I would agree, as a Brit, that the term is a coinage in English. This doesn't mean it isn't valid, in the context of Romanian historiography, as long as its meaning is explained. There are many precedents I can think of, for example the term "lustration" as applied to a political issue, which recently came from Polish. It might be worth looking at alternative formulations, such as "re-writing history" or "myths of national origins" - but protochronism sounds cleverer, (in that slightly tiresome US way beloved of IT specialists and similar creatures!)It can still stand though. It was actually almost more interesting to read the talk page, and the discussions/rants it provoked. All that stuff about "not washing your dirty laundry in public" - which presupposes that foreigners would be gullible or not sufficiently interested to question what they are told about Romanian history by Romanians. Toroboro 11:50, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh well, a bit late to this conversation, I've edited the lead to indicated the term's purely Romanian origin and to what it refers.
PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►
TALK
19:16, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
The article for Protochronism is written from an obvious non-neuntral point of view, full of hate rhetoric. The protochronism concept by itself is outdated and linked to Socialism and Communism. Many of the new authors deemed protochronists are living and have careers outside Romania, in democratic and open-minded societies which encourage thinking outside the box. While some of their accusers are still even today in the same structures of Romanian academia that promoted Protochronism during Nicolae Ceauşescu and which barely changed their views or created any quality research in the last 20 years. The hypocrisy is huge. Terms like Dacoman, although ridiculous and pejorative, may make more sense if at all. The article is also a platform for absorbing other articles like Dacian script, based on very subjective claims that all the researchers behind those distinct theories described there are unqualified and protochronists. Above all, this has become a place for people to dump their hate and venom against whomever they hate or disagree with in the Dacian history topic, based on personal, subjective reasons. I don't find it worthy of Wikipedia, it is limited to Romanian space and doesn't bring any good to anyone. Keep an open mind. -- Codrin.B ( talk) 21:42, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
Quite frankly I've never seen more polemics about "who are we? really?" than here. Lecturing each other (Dahn, my perception) really is not helpful (and as I recall you and I have had some interesting exchanges on Romanians versus Moldavians). As for Codrin's rhetorical but with non-rhetorical implications questions, the point is valid as to why exploration of certain aspects of ancient roots are ridiculed outright (that is, dismissed, case seemingly proven and closed) in one case [ROMANIA] but pursued as an area of inquiry in another [BULGARIA]. When it comes to our (collective) origins, we still don't know what we don't know. I do have to wonder, with regard to Romanians, if areas of inquiry aren't being dismissed out of hand because the zenith of their pursuit is associated with a defunct totalitarian regime. (Yes, I've read the four theories, do I hear five?)
PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►
TALK
19:45, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
Just wanted to leave my thanks for all the work that went into this article (and my opinion). Although I don't think the article is terrible good at the moment, it really is useful. It's just good to have something in English at all. I wish I could improve it, but I don't have any good sources either. MauriceM3 ( talk) 15:29, 16 May 2014 (UTC)