This article is within the scope of WikiProject Plants, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
plants and
botany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PlantsWikipedia:WikiProject PlantsTemplate:WikiProject Plantsplant articles
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Support: While the monophyly of Cupressus with respect to Juniperus is an open question, it is paraphyletic with respect to Xanthocyparis and Callitropsis; if the latter two genera are to be retained then the principal of monophyly requires the recognition of Hesperocyparis.
Lavateraguy (
talk)
09:53, 11 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose; premature, the data are still equivocal, with retention in Cupressus of this, Xanthocyparis, and Callitropsis, still a good call as the monophyly of Cupressus with respect to Juniperus looks good despite some aberrant genes (
Zhu et al. 2018). The Cupressus Conservation Project, IUCN, and GBIF all retain Cupressus in its broad sense. There are also no morphological criteria distinguishing the sensu stricto genera; every character found in any one, can also be found in others (unlike Juniperus, which is 100% reliably diagnosable in multiple reproductive organ characters). Note also that reciprocal genetic nonmonophyly is also widespread in conifers; it can't be relied on for circumscription of genera or species without other data like morphology (see e.g.
Syring et al. 2007). -
MPF (
talk)
23:23, 12 February 2024 (UTC)reply
More comment: I see on
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Plants#Change some Festuca to Lolium that "× Festulolium which will have to be merged with Lolium (it's one of the arguments for the change because it removes these intergeneric hybrids)" [and ditto later in the same discussion for × Schedolium]. Exactly the same can be said – and with considerably greater force, as there are no other intergeneric hybrids in the entire Pinophyta – of the multiple hybrid cypresses that (to date) involve 3 of the sensu stricto genera -
MPF (
talk)
00:17, 13 February 2024 (UTC)reply
@
MPF:The Cupressus Conservation Project was discussed at plants, and found to be wanting in the face of usage in papers and major floral databases. I also see that you seem to have missed @
Plantdrew:s question regarding your attachment to the project. You keep saying the data is "equivocal", but you also keep ignoring that the split is in use in the literature now and the last comment by The Cupressus project (as an "editorial") is nearly 7 years out of date. Also none of these (The Cupressus Conservation Project, IUCN, and GBIF) are the WP:Plants base databases that we decided to use for plant taxonomy, that would be POWO, which accepts the split.--
Kevmin§17:02, 13 February 2024 (UTC)reply
if you are a certain arboriculturist from England who is also on the board of The Cupressus Conservation Project you are straying close to COI territory--
Kevmin§17:14, 13 February 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Kj cheetham, the discussion ended up essentially the same place that it did on WT:PLANTS and there has been a full week for any objections to the addition of the Hesperocyparis glabra move. Should I ping you or another editor for a close on this request?
🌿MtBotany (
talk)
01:15, 23 February 2024 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Plants, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
plants and
botany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PlantsWikipedia:WikiProject PlantsTemplate:WikiProject Plantsplant articles
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Support: While the monophyly of Cupressus with respect to Juniperus is an open question, it is paraphyletic with respect to Xanthocyparis and Callitropsis; if the latter two genera are to be retained then the principal of monophyly requires the recognition of Hesperocyparis.
Lavateraguy (
talk)
09:53, 11 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose; premature, the data are still equivocal, with retention in Cupressus of this, Xanthocyparis, and Callitropsis, still a good call as the monophyly of Cupressus with respect to Juniperus looks good despite some aberrant genes (
Zhu et al. 2018). The Cupressus Conservation Project, IUCN, and GBIF all retain Cupressus in its broad sense. There are also no morphological criteria distinguishing the sensu stricto genera; every character found in any one, can also be found in others (unlike Juniperus, which is 100% reliably diagnosable in multiple reproductive organ characters). Note also that reciprocal genetic nonmonophyly is also widespread in conifers; it can't be relied on for circumscription of genera or species without other data like morphology (see e.g.
Syring et al. 2007). -
MPF (
talk)
23:23, 12 February 2024 (UTC)reply
More comment: I see on
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Plants#Change some Festuca to Lolium that "× Festulolium which will have to be merged with Lolium (it's one of the arguments for the change because it removes these intergeneric hybrids)" [and ditto later in the same discussion for × Schedolium]. Exactly the same can be said – and with considerably greater force, as there are no other intergeneric hybrids in the entire Pinophyta – of the multiple hybrid cypresses that (to date) involve 3 of the sensu stricto genera -
MPF (
talk)
00:17, 13 February 2024 (UTC)reply
@
MPF:The Cupressus Conservation Project was discussed at plants, and found to be wanting in the face of usage in papers and major floral databases. I also see that you seem to have missed @
Plantdrew:s question regarding your attachment to the project. You keep saying the data is "equivocal", but you also keep ignoring that the split is in use in the literature now and the last comment by The Cupressus project (as an "editorial") is nearly 7 years out of date. Also none of these (The Cupressus Conservation Project, IUCN, and GBIF) are the WP:Plants base databases that we decided to use for plant taxonomy, that would be POWO, which accepts the split.--
Kevmin§17:02, 13 February 2024 (UTC)reply
if you are a certain arboriculturist from England who is also on the board of The Cupressus Conservation Project you are straying close to COI territory--
Kevmin§17:14, 13 February 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Kj cheetham, the discussion ended up essentially the same place that it did on WT:PLANTS and there has been a full week for any objections to the addition of the Hesperocyparis glabra move. Should I ping you or another editor for a close on this request?
🌿MtBotany (
talk)
01:15, 23 February 2024 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.