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I don't see how "cultivar group" is a proper noun, despite what the ICNCP might say. Does the ICNCP actually state that this is to be capitalized or do they use it as such? I see far more instances of this title being lowercase (USDA, academic publications...) and sometimes with a hyphen. I suggest this be moved back to the lowercase version. -- Rkitko ( talk) 22:51, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
This entry has now been edited to bring it in line with the Cultivated Plant Code of 2004 which changed the Cultivar-group to the Group as a classification category.
Granitethighs (
talk) 04:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi Ryan - the relevant parts of the ICNCP are page ix then Article 18.1 and then (in full) Article 20.
--
124.190.209.142 (
talk) 07:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
It needs to be understood that:
It's easy to prove in mere seconds [though much longer to format the results here] with an online search that the professional literature does not consistently use the symbols "Group", "Gp", or (formerly) "cultivar-group" outside of actual horticultural epithets.
Source list
|
---|
These all use "cultivar group", and are just from the first three pages of search results:
Uses "cultivar group" in running prose. While this pre-dates the change to "Group", it notably does not use the symbol "cultivar-group" in running prose, and firmly establishes that "cultivar group" has long been a term attested and accepted in the professional literature (it is not a "Wikipedia made-up term" as someone claimed in a related discussion on another talk page):
|
The fact that use of "cultivar group" continues, in works that post-date the "cultivar-group" to "Group" symbol change, clearly proves that the usage has not been replaced (and wasn't earlier replaced by "cultivar-group" with a hyphen). ISHS's "language activism" in favor of writing "Group" with a capital-G in regular text is routinely ignored within the field. The above sources show that the exact phrase and style "cultivar group" has existed in running prose in agricultural science works since at least th 1980s, and that its use has been continuous, despite ICNCP's house style, even while respecting ICNCP specifications within actual botanical names.
PS: When giving names, the cited authors assiduously follow ICN and ICNCP style, e.g. Solanum tuberosum (Maincrop Group) 'Desirée', though some use the order Solanum tuberosum 'Desirée' (Maincrop Group), with or without the brackets, which is neither illustrated nor prohibited by ICNCP. The sole exception I could find was CABI's Plantwise, which uses "cultivar group" (without the hyphen) in headings that seem intended to give epithets, e.g. "Brassica rapa cultivar group Mizuna" [8], and in some other cases uses the abbreviated form "cv. group" [9] which might be non-standard, or might have been prescribed under an old ICNCP. If that form was ever specified in the Code, it should redirect here and be mentioned in the article, for completeness.
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:50, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
this is virtually never done outside of horticultural writing– but that doesn't make not doing it right. Newspapers and the like rarely get the styling of scientific names right, using either no or two capitals in binomials, etc. As you well know from previous discussions, many sources consistently fail to use hyphens and dashes correctly. In neither case do we give up on maintaining our standards. This isn't a horticultural encyclopedia, but it is an encyclopedia. Peter coxhead ( talk) 12:49, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
When was the concept (under any term) introduced in to the Code? We need a proper history section; the only history we have is on the rename. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 04:42, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
This is my last (and obviously vain) attempt to "normalize" at least the introduction of this article. A) Professional issues: 1. A cultivar-group is an OLD (and forbidden) name according to the ICNCP, therefore it cannot be in the article title or even the first word in the first sentence in an article citing the ICNCP as its main definition. 2. A cultivar-group is NOT the same entity as a Group because a Group can be composed of individual plants (etc.) (see the definition in the current ICNCP) while a cultivar-group can be only composed of cultivars (see old ICNCP definitions, but actually this is trivial). B) On a personal note: 1. Do not remove scientific (and actually even binding) sources (i.e. the ICNCP), just for fun or just because their content does not match your personal (wrong) opinion. 2. Do not put wrong information into this (or any other) article based on the following argument you have used in the edit summary: The title must match the fist word in the first sentence -> the title cannot be changed because we do not want to change it -> therefore we cannot change the first word in the first sentence to its correct version. If you do not see the errors in this "argument", then this article is definitely lost. [Edit was by 2a02:ab04:3cb:f000:4833:7e01:3a4e:58b3, 01:36, 2 December 2017]
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
I don't see how "cultivar group" is a proper noun, despite what the ICNCP might say. Does the ICNCP actually state that this is to be capitalized or do they use it as such? I see far more instances of this title being lowercase (USDA, academic publications...) and sometimes with a hyphen. I suggest this be moved back to the lowercase version. -- Rkitko ( talk) 22:51, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
This entry has now been edited to bring it in line with the Cultivated Plant Code of 2004 which changed the Cultivar-group to the Group as a classification category.
Granitethighs (
talk) 04:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi Ryan - the relevant parts of the ICNCP are page ix then Article 18.1 and then (in full) Article 20.
--
124.190.209.142 (
talk) 07:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
It needs to be understood that:
It's easy to prove in mere seconds [though much longer to format the results here] with an online search that the professional literature does not consistently use the symbols "Group", "Gp", or (formerly) "cultivar-group" outside of actual horticultural epithets.
Source list
|
---|
These all use "cultivar group", and are just from the first three pages of search results:
Uses "cultivar group" in running prose. While this pre-dates the change to "Group", it notably does not use the symbol "cultivar-group" in running prose, and firmly establishes that "cultivar group" has long been a term attested and accepted in the professional literature (it is not a "Wikipedia made-up term" as someone claimed in a related discussion on another talk page):
|
The fact that use of "cultivar group" continues, in works that post-date the "cultivar-group" to "Group" symbol change, clearly proves that the usage has not been replaced (and wasn't earlier replaced by "cultivar-group" with a hyphen). ISHS's "language activism" in favor of writing "Group" with a capital-G in regular text is routinely ignored within the field. The above sources show that the exact phrase and style "cultivar group" has existed in running prose in agricultural science works since at least th 1980s, and that its use has been continuous, despite ICNCP's house style, even while respecting ICNCP specifications within actual botanical names.
PS: When giving names, the cited authors assiduously follow ICN and ICNCP style, e.g. Solanum tuberosum (Maincrop Group) 'Desirée', though some use the order Solanum tuberosum 'Desirée' (Maincrop Group), with or without the brackets, which is neither illustrated nor prohibited by ICNCP. The sole exception I could find was CABI's Plantwise, which uses "cultivar group" (without the hyphen) in headings that seem intended to give epithets, e.g. "Brassica rapa cultivar group Mizuna" [8], and in some other cases uses the abbreviated form "cv. group" [9] which might be non-standard, or might have been prescribed under an old ICNCP. If that form was ever specified in the Code, it should redirect here and be mentioned in the article, for completeness.
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:50, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
this is virtually never done outside of horticultural writing– but that doesn't make not doing it right. Newspapers and the like rarely get the styling of scientific names right, using either no or two capitals in binomials, etc. As you well know from previous discussions, many sources consistently fail to use hyphens and dashes correctly. In neither case do we give up on maintaining our standards. This isn't a horticultural encyclopedia, but it is an encyclopedia. Peter coxhead ( talk) 12:49, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
When was the concept (under any term) introduced in to the Code? We need a proper history section; the only history we have is on the rename. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 04:42, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
This is my last (and obviously vain) attempt to "normalize" at least the introduction of this article. A) Professional issues: 1. A cultivar-group is an OLD (and forbidden) name according to the ICNCP, therefore it cannot be in the article title or even the first word in the first sentence in an article citing the ICNCP as its main definition. 2. A cultivar-group is NOT the same entity as a Group because a Group can be composed of individual plants (etc.) (see the definition in the current ICNCP) while a cultivar-group can be only composed of cultivars (see old ICNCP definitions, but actually this is trivial). B) On a personal note: 1. Do not remove scientific (and actually even binding) sources (i.e. the ICNCP), just for fun or just because their content does not match your personal (wrong) opinion. 2. Do not put wrong information into this (or any other) article based on the following argument you have used in the edit summary: The title must match the fist word in the first sentence -> the title cannot be changed because we do not want to change it -> therefore we cannot change the first word in the first sentence to its correct version. If you do not see the errors in this "argument", then this article is definitely lost. [Edit was by 2a02:ab04:3cb:f000:4833:7e01:3a4e:58b3, 01:36, 2 December 2017]