![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
See article cult , older archives talk:Cult/archive1 talk:Cult/archive2
(moved from User talk:David Gerard)
You wrote:
Both of these ideas seem like circular definitions to me:
This would mean that homosexuality really was a mental illness when it was listed in DSM, but that it became okay when they voted to take it out. I don't think either you or I believes that being listed in (or taken out of) DSM changes the factuality of the assertion of that homosexuality is a disorder (see reparative therapy or SADD).
The article on cults needs to explain WHY a group having some or all of the characteristics in any of the checklists would be spurious or destructive. If somebody has studied groups like People's Temple, etc., and found that they tended to have certain features in common, then we should name that person, and tell readers how the research was conducted.
We also need some explanation about whether groups which have historically proven NOT to be destructive, or which have gained wide mainstream acceptance as spiritually GENUINE, share any "cult" features. We could start with a simple example:
Roman Catholics follow the pope, who answers to no earthly authority. In fact, their church headquarters has its own sovereign territory and even a (token) army! We need to explain what having a leader who answers to no one indicates about a religious group, especially how it shows that the group is likely or unlikely to commit murder. And so on.
Want to help with this? -- Uncle Ed 19:11, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I removed a paragraph saying that certain countries (with a list of specific countries) gave total freedom to cults as long as they did not break laws. This is largely meaningless, because intolerant countries will probably draft laws that cults would break (for instance, laws against conversions from the state religion, or laws restricting the practice of religion to some official religion, or some official religion plus tolerated religions, as in Iran). What could perhaps be more meaningful would be saying that certain countries do not have laws regulating beliefs and religious practice per se and do not engage in legal action against cults, or other repressive measures, as long as they do not breach non-religious laws (for instance, laws against crimes against people or crime against property). Still, this would make the list highly irrelevant, since this is the case of most developed countries (I believe it includes the whole European Union, as well as the United States). David.Monniaux 20:32, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I moved the cult checklists to a new article. --Uncle Ed (El Dunce) 17:15, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Thanks to Andries for adding the following:
I like the phrase popular but non-scientific. --Uncle Ed (El Dunce) 18:09, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
My statement: "Uncritical acceptance of any party line and unthinking obedience to any leader is a danger to a democracy, no matter how respectable or established the cult." is an axiomatic statement derived from the understood connotations of democracy, critical thought, and cult. There seems to be a continuing confusion about cult, linking it to number of members. Perhaps the confusion is essential to some agenda I'm unaware of. Andries challenges me to "find a quote" to justify this obvious statement. What does the neutral reader think? Wetman 00:36, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
What this entry needs is a report on cult as analyzed by Carl Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark --not an amateur's suggestion that the US Constitution authorizes the suppression of information as a religious prerogative. Let us discuss cult at Wikipedia, not demonstrate its effects. Wetman 21:57, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Nothing in US law requires any person, when discussing his religion, to mention any particular aspect of it. When evangelizing, for example, a missionary is free to present his religion any way he chooses. "Come join us, and you'll have no more troubles!" is not considered false advertising, even if you'd like it to be. Because commercial speech is not protected by the First Amendment in the same way that religious speech is.
Now, if you'd like to add something to the article about advocacy to change these laws in the US, or about laws in other countries, please do so. I know that there are countries with atheism as an official ideology, which suppress and/or regulate religious speech (China springs to mind, but it's not the only one); likewise, several Islamic countries have severe restrictions on non-Muslims "sharing" their faith. My friend John has the cigarette burns on his body to prove it (ask him about his experiences in our 'ally' Kuwait sometime). --Uncle Ed (El Dunce) 16:34, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm somehow skeptical about this alleged complaint against the Picard law before the European Court of Human Rights. If I'm not mistaken, it is impossible to complain before this court about a law per se; it is only possible to complain against some specific application of the law where some specific person was harmed by some alleged violation of his or her rights. Furthermore, I'm skeptical that, since the alleged action was started, the case shouldn't have been settled.
It is a customary practice of various pressure groups to claim they will take their matter to litigation or some international court, without much of a case for doing so. We should not be repeating their declarations without some fact checking.
I'd be inclined to suppress the affirmation that this law is under review by the ECHR until somebody points out to a specific case. David.Monniaux 13:39, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
If nobody can point to a serious source establishing that a case against France about the About-Picard law is still pending before ECHR, I'll remove the statement from the text. We do not even have a reference for any lawsuit! David.Monniaux 22:02, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
David, please provide references to your claim about the Church of Scientology seeking support from the US government. It seems to me, yet again, to be an unsubstantiated opinion. -- Zappaz 16:17, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
For the rest of the section, I only made a minor change to the "China" sub section. Oh and can somebody help with the cult checklist? They need to be referenced again (references were lost during cut and paste job) and put into context. Andries 21:51, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I remember having seen a government document that gives warnings about cults but now I can not find it anymore so that is why I deleted the remark that Germany gives general warning about cults. Andries 22:48, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The pre nov_17 version was hopelessly mired in assumptions. I thought it would be best to start fresh. The old versions are in the page history, of course.
Key points to remember:
There is also the whole issue of recruitment techniques. Do any of these labeled groups engage in unusual or unethical methods of attracting, training or retaining members.
I'm also not sure at all what info belongs in the cult article and what should be in the New religious movement (NRM) article. --user:Ed Poor (talk) 21:42, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
I bow to the majority. Let's put my version into cult/temp. --user:Ed Poor (talk) 00:09, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)
oh, and another thing. We do not need (opposing) opinions in this article or the NRM article but we want facts so I hope that someone can go to a university library and study the relevant articles based on empirical research there. If you need a list of relevant articles then let me know. Andries 02:56, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Indeed. I think that there are basically four different sets of reasons why certain groups are branded "cults":
It is very important to distinguish these various reasons because various groups of people and governments have different reasons from opposing "cults". All too often, anti-cult activity is described as conformism and theological opposition and intolerance from established religion (1 and 4), whereas it comes from 2. Conversely, anti-cult activities may pretend to be motivated by 2, whereas they are motivated by 3, 4 or even 1. David.Monniaux 10:03, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's also necessary to mention the dispute over the label "cult" itself, and that's where a lot of the problems with this article originate. A few things are worth mentioning about this:
Thank you, David, Modemac and Andries for your comments. All were constructive and beneficial.
David, I had completely forgotten the "2 for" thing: motivation which is really pretense. (I've been "assuming good faith" for so long here at Wikipedia that I may perhaps be excused for this lapse ;-)
Nearly 30 years ago, Rev. Moon said:
Also, there is evidence (or at least suspicion) that some " deprogrammers" may be motivated by something other than a sincere belief that they are rescuing hapless victims from sophisticated purveyors of mind control.
Andries, of course I'll keep all your references; you worked hard to find them. I'd like to read some more of the articles you have found.
Modemac, the labelling issue is indeed tricky. Please help me to work on that; I'm not sure I have enough objectivity here, since I object to accusations that my church is "spurious". I will try to remember to "write for the enemy", and as always on this issue I will continue to seek counsel from other contributors to make sure I don't lapse into one-sided condemnation of those, er, uh, ... hmm, my keyboard seems to be preventing me from typing anything insulting today.... --user:Ed Poor (talk) 14:54, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)
Also, there is evidence (or at least suspicion) that some " deprogrammers" may be motivated by something other than a sincere belief that they are rescuing hapless victims from sophisticated purveyors of mind control.
Andries, of course I'll keep all your references; you worked hard to find them. I'd like to read some more of the articles you have found.
Modemac, the labelling issue is indeed tricky. Please help me to work on that; I'm not sure I have enough objectivity here, since I object to accusations that my church is "spurious". I will try to remember to "write for the enemy", and as always on this issue I will continue to seek counsel from other contributors to make sure I don't lapse into one-sided condemnation of those, er, uh, ... hmm, my keyboard seems to be preventing me from typing anything insulting today.... --user:Ed Poor (talk) 14:54, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)
These quite separate terms are hopelessly entangled (not accidentally) at Wikipedia, where cult even has two competing articles: cult and destructive cult, as if to suggest there were a non-destructive kind of cult, in this sense of the term. Newness and size have nothing to do with whether a religious group or "sect" is a cult or not. Cult is identified by an unhealthy relation between an individual and a sect, in which the individual is socially and psychologically manipulated, not for the individual's good. No authoritarian religion is wholly free from "cult" in this modern sense. In the cultural atmosphere of Wikipedia, no frank article on cult is possible. -- Wetman 17:09, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Just a side answer: the law in most jurisdictions already recognizes the fact that adults may not be in a mental state suitable for making sound and informed judgment. For instance, the law usually provides for adult whose judgment is durably altered to be put under judicial or familial supervisions. Similarly, it is often a crime to abuse the confidence of some vulnerable people, especially the elderly (there are people who specialize in abusing elderly people). David.Monniaux 08:31, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Shall we merge this article with new religious movement into Cults and new religious movements? Like Ed Poor, I am confused what should go where. I will merge if I do not receive objections within one week.'' The section cults and government (esp. France) can be summarized here and go into a separate article to deal with the max. length constraint. Andries 10:10, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Responses to Andries proposal, copied from
Talk:New religious movement
- End copy
If you really intend to go forward with this merge, I would suggest that you merge into a temporary article and when done propose to be evaluated as an alternative to the current article status quo. IMO, it is a waste of time and effort to attempt this merge. It would be nice to have an explanation from you as for the reasons for your considering the need for such a merge. -- Zappaz 15:05, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
See article cult , older archives talk:Cult/archive1 talk:Cult/archive2
(moved from User talk:David Gerard)
You wrote:
Both of these ideas seem like circular definitions to me:
This would mean that homosexuality really was a mental illness when it was listed in DSM, but that it became okay when they voted to take it out. I don't think either you or I believes that being listed in (or taken out of) DSM changes the factuality of the assertion of that homosexuality is a disorder (see reparative therapy or SADD).
The article on cults needs to explain WHY a group having some or all of the characteristics in any of the checklists would be spurious or destructive. If somebody has studied groups like People's Temple, etc., and found that they tended to have certain features in common, then we should name that person, and tell readers how the research was conducted.
We also need some explanation about whether groups which have historically proven NOT to be destructive, or which have gained wide mainstream acceptance as spiritually GENUINE, share any "cult" features. We could start with a simple example:
Roman Catholics follow the pope, who answers to no earthly authority. In fact, their church headquarters has its own sovereign territory and even a (token) army! We need to explain what having a leader who answers to no one indicates about a religious group, especially how it shows that the group is likely or unlikely to commit murder. And so on.
Want to help with this? -- Uncle Ed 19:11, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I removed a paragraph saying that certain countries (with a list of specific countries) gave total freedom to cults as long as they did not break laws. This is largely meaningless, because intolerant countries will probably draft laws that cults would break (for instance, laws against conversions from the state religion, or laws restricting the practice of religion to some official religion, or some official religion plus tolerated religions, as in Iran). What could perhaps be more meaningful would be saying that certain countries do not have laws regulating beliefs and religious practice per se and do not engage in legal action against cults, or other repressive measures, as long as they do not breach non-religious laws (for instance, laws against crimes against people or crime against property). Still, this would make the list highly irrelevant, since this is the case of most developed countries (I believe it includes the whole European Union, as well as the United States). David.Monniaux 20:32, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I moved the cult checklists to a new article. --Uncle Ed (El Dunce) 17:15, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Thanks to Andries for adding the following:
I like the phrase popular but non-scientific. --Uncle Ed (El Dunce) 18:09, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
My statement: "Uncritical acceptance of any party line and unthinking obedience to any leader is a danger to a democracy, no matter how respectable or established the cult." is an axiomatic statement derived from the understood connotations of democracy, critical thought, and cult. There seems to be a continuing confusion about cult, linking it to number of members. Perhaps the confusion is essential to some agenda I'm unaware of. Andries challenges me to "find a quote" to justify this obvious statement. What does the neutral reader think? Wetman 00:36, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
What this entry needs is a report on cult as analyzed by Carl Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark --not an amateur's suggestion that the US Constitution authorizes the suppression of information as a religious prerogative. Let us discuss cult at Wikipedia, not demonstrate its effects. Wetman 21:57, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Nothing in US law requires any person, when discussing his religion, to mention any particular aspect of it. When evangelizing, for example, a missionary is free to present his religion any way he chooses. "Come join us, and you'll have no more troubles!" is not considered false advertising, even if you'd like it to be. Because commercial speech is not protected by the First Amendment in the same way that religious speech is.
Now, if you'd like to add something to the article about advocacy to change these laws in the US, or about laws in other countries, please do so. I know that there are countries with atheism as an official ideology, which suppress and/or regulate religious speech (China springs to mind, but it's not the only one); likewise, several Islamic countries have severe restrictions on non-Muslims "sharing" their faith. My friend John has the cigarette burns on his body to prove it (ask him about his experiences in our 'ally' Kuwait sometime). --Uncle Ed (El Dunce) 16:34, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm somehow skeptical about this alleged complaint against the Picard law before the European Court of Human Rights. If I'm not mistaken, it is impossible to complain before this court about a law per se; it is only possible to complain against some specific application of the law where some specific person was harmed by some alleged violation of his or her rights. Furthermore, I'm skeptical that, since the alleged action was started, the case shouldn't have been settled.
It is a customary practice of various pressure groups to claim they will take their matter to litigation or some international court, without much of a case for doing so. We should not be repeating their declarations without some fact checking.
I'd be inclined to suppress the affirmation that this law is under review by the ECHR until somebody points out to a specific case. David.Monniaux 13:39, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
If nobody can point to a serious source establishing that a case against France about the About-Picard law is still pending before ECHR, I'll remove the statement from the text. We do not even have a reference for any lawsuit! David.Monniaux 22:02, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
David, please provide references to your claim about the Church of Scientology seeking support from the US government. It seems to me, yet again, to be an unsubstantiated opinion. -- Zappaz 16:17, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
For the rest of the section, I only made a minor change to the "China" sub section. Oh and can somebody help with the cult checklist? They need to be referenced again (references were lost during cut and paste job) and put into context. Andries 21:51, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I remember having seen a government document that gives warnings about cults but now I can not find it anymore so that is why I deleted the remark that Germany gives general warning about cults. Andries 22:48, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The pre nov_17 version was hopelessly mired in assumptions. I thought it would be best to start fresh. The old versions are in the page history, of course.
Key points to remember:
There is also the whole issue of recruitment techniques. Do any of these labeled groups engage in unusual or unethical methods of attracting, training or retaining members.
I'm also not sure at all what info belongs in the cult article and what should be in the New religious movement (NRM) article. --user:Ed Poor (talk) 21:42, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
I bow to the majority. Let's put my version into cult/temp. --user:Ed Poor (talk) 00:09, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)
oh, and another thing. We do not need (opposing) opinions in this article or the NRM article but we want facts so I hope that someone can go to a university library and study the relevant articles based on empirical research there. If you need a list of relevant articles then let me know. Andries 02:56, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Indeed. I think that there are basically four different sets of reasons why certain groups are branded "cults":
It is very important to distinguish these various reasons because various groups of people and governments have different reasons from opposing "cults". All too often, anti-cult activity is described as conformism and theological opposition and intolerance from established religion (1 and 4), whereas it comes from 2. Conversely, anti-cult activities may pretend to be motivated by 2, whereas they are motivated by 3, 4 or even 1. David.Monniaux 10:03, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's also necessary to mention the dispute over the label "cult" itself, and that's where a lot of the problems with this article originate. A few things are worth mentioning about this:
Thank you, David, Modemac and Andries for your comments. All were constructive and beneficial.
David, I had completely forgotten the "2 for" thing: motivation which is really pretense. (I've been "assuming good faith" for so long here at Wikipedia that I may perhaps be excused for this lapse ;-)
Nearly 30 years ago, Rev. Moon said:
Also, there is evidence (or at least suspicion) that some " deprogrammers" may be motivated by something other than a sincere belief that they are rescuing hapless victims from sophisticated purveyors of mind control.
Andries, of course I'll keep all your references; you worked hard to find them. I'd like to read some more of the articles you have found.
Modemac, the labelling issue is indeed tricky. Please help me to work on that; I'm not sure I have enough objectivity here, since I object to accusations that my church is "spurious". I will try to remember to "write for the enemy", and as always on this issue I will continue to seek counsel from other contributors to make sure I don't lapse into one-sided condemnation of those, er, uh, ... hmm, my keyboard seems to be preventing me from typing anything insulting today.... --user:Ed Poor (talk) 14:54, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)
Also, there is evidence (or at least suspicion) that some " deprogrammers" may be motivated by something other than a sincere belief that they are rescuing hapless victims from sophisticated purveyors of mind control.
Andries, of course I'll keep all your references; you worked hard to find them. I'd like to read some more of the articles you have found.
Modemac, the labelling issue is indeed tricky. Please help me to work on that; I'm not sure I have enough objectivity here, since I object to accusations that my church is "spurious". I will try to remember to "write for the enemy", and as always on this issue I will continue to seek counsel from other contributors to make sure I don't lapse into one-sided condemnation of those, er, uh, ... hmm, my keyboard seems to be preventing me from typing anything insulting today.... --user:Ed Poor (talk) 14:54, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)
These quite separate terms are hopelessly entangled (not accidentally) at Wikipedia, where cult even has two competing articles: cult and destructive cult, as if to suggest there were a non-destructive kind of cult, in this sense of the term. Newness and size have nothing to do with whether a religious group or "sect" is a cult or not. Cult is identified by an unhealthy relation between an individual and a sect, in which the individual is socially and psychologically manipulated, not for the individual's good. No authoritarian religion is wholly free from "cult" in this modern sense. In the cultural atmosphere of Wikipedia, no frank article on cult is possible. -- Wetman 17:09, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Just a side answer: the law in most jurisdictions already recognizes the fact that adults may not be in a mental state suitable for making sound and informed judgment. For instance, the law usually provides for adult whose judgment is durably altered to be put under judicial or familial supervisions. Similarly, it is often a crime to abuse the confidence of some vulnerable people, especially the elderly (there are people who specialize in abusing elderly people). David.Monniaux 08:31, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Shall we merge this article with new religious movement into Cults and new religious movements? Like Ed Poor, I am confused what should go where. I will merge if I do not receive objections within one week.'' The section cults and government (esp. France) can be summarized here and go into a separate article to deal with the max. length constraint. Andries 10:10, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Responses to Andries proposal, copied from
Talk:New religious movement
- End copy
If you really intend to go forward with this merge, I would suggest that you merge into a temporary article and when done propose to be evaluated as an alternative to the current article status quo. IMO, it is a waste of time and effort to attempt this merge. It would be nice to have an explanation from you as for the reasons for your considering the need for such a merge. -- Zappaz 15:05, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)