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Repeated reversion, both violating WP:3RR and running off to various noticeboards without any real attempts to discuss the matter is a disgrace from both sides. I've protected the article, but if the silliness keeps up I'm mindful to start issuing blocks instead. Come on, you've both been here long enough to know that this is not how we do things. henrik• talk 05:20, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I express no opinion about the {{ citations missing}} and {{ lead too short}} tags. As the person who wrote this article initially, I think I am not in a good position to critique my own work stylistically or substantively, for that matter. However, I believe that the {{ primary sources}} tag to be completely inappropriate. Under established policy ( WP:PSTS) the sources I cited are not primary sources. If someone wants to change policy to have the sources I cited be considered primary sources, a policy discussion should be started. Until and unless the policy is changed to consider those sources to be primary sources, the tag is incorrect, misleading, and inappropriate. -- Nlu ( talk) 07:25, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I am having a difficult time understanding just how this discussion is contributing to improving the encyclopedia, let alone this article. This is a fairly new article -- less than two weeks old -- so it's not going to measure up to Wikipedia standards in many ways; what we should be concerned here is finding the best ways to improve this article as fast as possible, not to determine who is right.
First, there is extensive use of primary sources here -- which in itself is not necessarily a bad thing. The Book of Tang, The New Book of Tang, & Zizhi Tongjian are all primary sources in the same way that Suetonius, Tacitus, & Herodian are primary sources: they are as close to the events they describe as we can get. Now, as long as they are cited as the ultimate source for falsifiable statements -- so-&-so was born here, had a given office, married this person, etc. -- there is no problem. It is when they are cited to prove some novel thesis -- that is, violate the rules on original research -- there is a problem.
On the other hand, the use of secondary sources -- works written by experts on the subject which discuss the value of the primary sources -- help to address the concern of readers that the subject is notable. If no scholar has bothered to discuss a given subject or a historical person, why should we then assume this subject or person is worthy of an article in Wikipedia? This is where the fact that this article is less than two weeks old comes into consideration: it can be more difficult to find secondary works on a historical subject -- even very important ones -- than primary ones. Libraries have finite budgets, & when faced with a choice are more likely to buy a primary source than a secondary one -- especially if the primary source is presented in a praiseworthy manner, while the secondary source is a monograph written by an expert for other experts. I would expect Chinese history falls into this situation, & why so many historical articles rely overmuch on primary sources.
So far, all I am doing is explaining what I think is the problem, not proposing a solution.
I would think that if Little Blue Frog is concerned about the lack of secondary sources here, a far more effective solution here would not be to add tags, but to find & add those secondary sources. Some of these tags are overkill: in the fifth paragraph of the section "During Emperor Xianzong's reign", for example, I believe the single footnote at the end indicates that all of the information in that paragraph comes from that source; adding {{fact}} tags at the end of each sentence is unnecessary & distracting. On the other hand, their presence doesn't clearly harm the article. There was no good reason for either party to edit-war over them. A mature Wikipedian would have stopped long before 3RR was effective, & either addressed the problem (i.e., looked for secondary sources) or moved on to another article.
In short, Henrik has made the correct call here: both of you are more interested in scoring points off each other than improving the article. And if this edit war resumes when this article is unprotected, I will endorse his blocks. -- llywrch ( talk) 19:12, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
There is a mediation request here. Anyone interested please join. Benjwong ( talk) 02:53, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
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Repeated reversion, both violating WP:3RR and running off to various noticeboards without any real attempts to discuss the matter is a disgrace from both sides. I've protected the article, but if the silliness keeps up I'm mindful to start issuing blocks instead. Come on, you've both been here long enough to know that this is not how we do things. henrik• talk 05:20, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I express no opinion about the {{ citations missing}} and {{ lead too short}} tags. As the person who wrote this article initially, I think I am not in a good position to critique my own work stylistically or substantively, for that matter. However, I believe that the {{ primary sources}} tag to be completely inappropriate. Under established policy ( WP:PSTS) the sources I cited are not primary sources. If someone wants to change policy to have the sources I cited be considered primary sources, a policy discussion should be started. Until and unless the policy is changed to consider those sources to be primary sources, the tag is incorrect, misleading, and inappropriate. -- Nlu ( talk) 07:25, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I am having a difficult time understanding just how this discussion is contributing to improving the encyclopedia, let alone this article. This is a fairly new article -- less than two weeks old -- so it's not going to measure up to Wikipedia standards in many ways; what we should be concerned here is finding the best ways to improve this article as fast as possible, not to determine who is right.
First, there is extensive use of primary sources here -- which in itself is not necessarily a bad thing. The Book of Tang, The New Book of Tang, & Zizhi Tongjian are all primary sources in the same way that Suetonius, Tacitus, & Herodian are primary sources: they are as close to the events they describe as we can get. Now, as long as they are cited as the ultimate source for falsifiable statements -- so-&-so was born here, had a given office, married this person, etc. -- there is no problem. It is when they are cited to prove some novel thesis -- that is, violate the rules on original research -- there is a problem.
On the other hand, the use of secondary sources -- works written by experts on the subject which discuss the value of the primary sources -- help to address the concern of readers that the subject is notable. If no scholar has bothered to discuss a given subject or a historical person, why should we then assume this subject or person is worthy of an article in Wikipedia? This is where the fact that this article is less than two weeks old comes into consideration: it can be more difficult to find secondary works on a historical subject -- even very important ones -- than primary ones. Libraries have finite budgets, & when faced with a choice are more likely to buy a primary source than a secondary one -- especially if the primary source is presented in a praiseworthy manner, while the secondary source is a monograph written by an expert for other experts. I would expect Chinese history falls into this situation, & why so many historical articles rely overmuch on primary sources.
So far, all I am doing is explaining what I think is the problem, not proposing a solution.
I would think that if Little Blue Frog is concerned about the lack of secondary sources here, a far more effective solution here would not be to add tags, but to find & add those secondary sources. Some of these tags are overkill: in the fifth paragraph of the section "During Emperor Xianzong's reign", for example, I believe the single footnote at the end indicates that all of the information in that paragraph comes from that source; adding {{fact}} tags at the end of each sentence is unnecessary & distracting. On the other hand, their presence doesn't clearly harm the article. There was no good reason for either party to edit-war over them. A mature Wikipedian would have stopped long before 3RR was effective, & either addressed the problem (i.e., looked for secondary sources) or moved on to another article.
In short, Henrik has made the correct call here: both of you are more interested in scoring points off each other than improving the article. And if this edit war resumes when this article is unprotected, I will endorse his blocks. -- llywrch ( talk) 19:12, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
There is a mediation request here. Anyone interested please join. Benjwong ( talk) 02:53, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 08:04, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 07:35, 15 August 2017 (UTC)