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Below is a sandbox for the Cuba Government section. All users can play in it and give it their best shot! -- Zleitzen 21:45, 24 April 2006 (UTC) User:Zleitzen/Cuba Government Sandbox
What is the point of yet another arena for arguing about whether Cuba is a democracy or not? The matter will be decided here or not at all. Adam 13:03, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, you can debate the matter elsewhere all you like, but any edits to the article itself will be subject to the same process of debate here as all previous edits have been. Adam 00:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
In Cuba education is free and mandatory. The current statistic of 96% comes from a biased source, the frist line of this source is a quote: "the choice is between capitalism and chaos". http://lanic.utexas.edu/la/cb/cuba/asce/cuba8/30smith.pdf
The current UN figure is 100% http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/cuba.html Grantplus 01:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
The difference seems unimportant. No-one disputes that Cuba has near universal literacy. Adam 13:03, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
No country has literally 100% literacy. "Near universal literacy" is certainly true. Adam 13:36, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I've sprotected because I see there's reverting against anons, and a sockpuppet account has just turned up elsewhere who may be heading here. If anyone thinks sprotection is inappropriate, let me know and I'll undo. Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 06:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
What criteria will you be using to decide when to unprotect the article? Adam 09:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
What does "sprotect" mean? Adam 00:23, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I see. I wasn't aware of this innovation. I don't think the problem here has been anon IPs or new accounts. The issue has been a deadlock between two groups of editors. Adam 00:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
It is a minor inconvenience for me, as I now have to log on to my old account to make edits. Although, something can be said for putting everything togeather in the sandbox. Mystork 05:24, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Regarding Adams recent edit delete "multi-party" qualifying the word "democracy", which suggests that Cuba might be some other kind of democracy. It isn't. Here is a good quote I found by Bob Huish, a graduate student at Queens University. [3]
It is indeed a good quote, illustrating as it does what is either the gross stupidity or the gross dishonesty (possibly both) of Cuba apologists. I suggest Mr Huish go to Havana and try to express overt opposition to the Castro government, or that he get one of his Cuban friends to try to nominate as a "Down with Castro" candidate at the next elections. He will soon learn the truth about Cuban democracy. Adam 01:07, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I hope we can settle down at "not a liberal democracy" As I said in the summary, it leaves less room for never-ending debate, and leaves the people who feel liberal democracy is the only kind happy, as well as the people who think democracy applies to Cuba in a different form. Mystork 05:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Countries are either democracies or they aren't. A democracy is a country in which the people are able to choose their own government from two or more alternatives able to compete freely for their support. Cuba is not a democracy, and that is what the article must say. Adam 05:41, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I didn't say "liberal democracy is the only kind of democracy." I gave a definition of democracy, and said that Cuba doesn't match that definition. Perhaps you'd like to give an alternative definition and we can debate that. Adam 05:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I asked you to give me an alternative definition of democracy. Adam 06:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I want to know your definition of democracy. Since you are insistent that Cuba is a democracy, presumably you know what the word means, and can give a definition of it. Adam 08:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
In NO way is Cuba a democracy. How did some grad student (not even a professor, which alone would hardly be a source) become the end-all, be-all source of information on Cuba's electoral process? I can say with absolute first-hand knowledge that ANYONE who expresses any opinion, overt or otherwise, contrary to castro and his regime, will be placed in jail or worse. The average sentence is 20 years and if someone is found organizing a political discussion, it's not surprising for that person to never be heard of again (usually executed by firing squad). Castro is a tyrant, and he simply feigns democracy. If the votes aren't counted, what good is an election? Here's a quote from the U.S. Cuba Democracy Act: "There is no sign that the Castro regime is prepared to make any significant concessions to democracy or to undertake any form of democratic opening. Efforts to suppress dissent through intimidation, imprisonment, and exile have accelerated since the political changes that have occurred in the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe." [5] mcmachete 11:50, 26 April 2006 (PST)
User:My Stork please read citations 4-13 on the top of the Cuba article to understand why Cuba is not a democracy. Please move on to other areas, I am sure you can make a meaningful contribution somewhere.~~Kane 26 April 2006~~
And I'll ask you the same question I have asked Mystork - what is your definition of a democracy? Adam 08:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Adam Carr recently provided twelve citations in support of his claim that 'cuba is not a democracy' is the only valid point of view about Cuba. Indeed his POV is a widely held POV, but it is not the only point of view. Also, it is very difficult to prove a negative. That is: to prove what Cuba is not. Of course, the onus is on Adam Carr to provide credible citation in support of his claim that his point of view is the only point of view.
Also, simply adding a large quantity of poor citations does not increase his credibility. Here are the twelve most recent citations, and none measure up to the high hurdle of proving a negative assertion:
I recommend that we move the disputed sentence off the main page to a sandbox until we reach consensus, perhaps with the help of a mediator? BruceHallman 13:44, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
No! Cuba is NOT a democracy. This topic has been argued to death, and the outcome is always the same. It is evident that there will always be a few die-hards that argue to the contrary in spite of all evidence, logic, and reason. The simple fact of the matter is that one cannot stand on a corner in Havana and hold a sign that says "Down with Fidel". That is not democracy! Bruce, while you have maintained good manners throughout, I have to say that it seems like you are playing devil's advocate and pushing this absurd debate when there are more constructive things all of us could be doing on Wikipedia.~~Kane 4 26 2006~~
It is an absurd debate, just like the whole dictator/leader/ruler debate. It's not just about freedom speech, it's about being able to freely and loudly oppose the govenment in power. The fact that they have elections(which many people smarter and more learned than myself call a farce) is not enough to call it a democracy. If it was truly a democracy, Castro would have been voted out of power decades ago! Just think about it. No leader is that good to stay in power legitimately for so long.~~Kane 4 26 2006~~
No, Bruce, we will not reach "consensus" on this issue, because consensus between diametrically opposed positions is not possible. So far as I can tell, now that Scott and Mystork have been banned, you are alone in arguing that Cuba is a democracy. Since you won't accept a ballot on the matter, there is no alternative to reverting your edits until you cease trying to impose your POV on this article. Adam 00:02, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
The POV that "Cuba is a democracy" is not a "significant" one outside the ranks of the Cuban Communist Party and its apologists. I am not opposed to a sentence in the politics section stating that "The Cuban Government and its supporters maintain that Cuba is a democracy" or words to that effect. But the sentence in the opening paragraph must reflect the majority/mainstream view, which is that Cuba is not a democracy. Adam 00:58, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Democacracy has absolutly nothing to do with the ability to vote for different candidates. The word means goverment by the people, when you elect someone you are elcting a represantative to make the decisions for you, so you could actually argue that US does not have a democracy(I wont even talk about the money needed to became a candidate in the US).
The discussion should not be about who is the head of goverment. Is the people of Cuba able to make decisions by themselves, do they have a system that evaluates the positions of the population and makes the decision the majority wants?(US would not pass on this test) Cuba is a form of democracy. However this is only my point of view, stating that Cuba is not a liberal democracy would be the most acurate in an encyclopedia. Chico 21:14, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
It all depends on how you define democracy. The Athenians came the closest to a true democracy, the only problem being that only male landowners could vote. In my opinion, a true democracy is where everyone votes directly. Everyone. Of course that's nigh impossible, but still. And one more thing, I don't think something the U.S. government put out is a valid citation, because the U.S. is obviously biased.
The U.S. definitely does not have a democracy either.
I couldn't figure out how to add something to the suggested settlement, but anyways, I liked Zleitzen's paragraph, and also, wouldn't someone know best if they had lived in Cuba?
In line with my suggestion above, here is my proposed settlement.
None of this is referenced at present, but if the general text is acceptable then references can be added. I am happy for those who think that Cuba is a democracy to change the sentence beginning "The Cuban government and its supporters maintain..." so that it better reflects their views (at reasonable length). Indeed I am keen to see their exposition of why Cuba is a democracy. But I will not agree to any watering down of the statements in the 2nd and 4th paragraphs. Adam 05:41, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Some comments on paragraph 4: The election process is managed by the state, not by the party. The relationship between the state and the party is extremely complex. Without meaning to cause offence, Adam, I don't think you've even begun to grasp (or to attempt to grasp) this relationship, so it might be best to avoid wild simplifications like 'effectively controlled by'. It doesn't help anything except to fudge the issue. With regard to there only being one candidate for each post in 2003, does this relate to the part of the national assembly elected from the street level, or from the mass organisation? (You ignore this fundamental part of the elction process). I have never heard this anywhere before, I find it intrigueing if true, although your interpretation of PCC-imposed cadidates is far from the only possible explanation - it could for example be that the community decides democratically who will go forward in a pre-election process (I have been to Cuba several times, and the level of collective community organisation makes this perfectly plausible). If you genuinely want to avoid POV, you should point out that whilst there may have only been one cadidate for each post in 2003, anybody can stand for election from the local level, they are restricted to a single side of A4 paper for their election manifesto, continue to receive the same wage they were on in their job previous to election, and are subject to recall by their electors at any time. All enitrely verifiable. It may also be good to have something on the historical development of the political system in Cuba, as there is a vast difference between the processes and structures of the early revolution and present, taking account of the 'rectification period', etc. -- Tom
I haven't been to Cuba, but I know enough about how Soviet-style systems work (and the Cuban system is a direct descendant of the 1936 Soviet Constitution) to know that however much window-dressing Communist regimes instal to fool gullible visitors (and I recommend Sidney and Beatrice Webb's Soviet Communism: A New Civilisation to you for the best-known example), the Communist Party controls the whole process from beginning to end. I am aware that the National Assembly is "elected" by two different processes, and I have no objection to this being mentioned (although this level of detail probably belongs at Elections in Cuba), so long as the impression is not created that these are genuine elections, because they are not. Both the "street" and the "mass organisations" in a Soviet-style system are controlled by the Party. The Party controls the media, has a monopoly of coercion and controls the courts - no more elaborate explanation is needed for the absence of opposition. I have been to Vietnam and Laos, where I was told exactly the same kind of stuff about how these countries are "real" democracies despite the communist parties' monopoly of power. The same kind of stuff was routinely spouted by the numerous apologists for the Soviet Union, Poland, the DDR, and even Romania and Albania, for decades until they were all made to look very silly in 1990. The same thing will happen to Cuba-apologists when Fidel dies and the regime collapses a few years from now. Adam 11:31, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
It is not clear that you welcome collaboration on your paragraphs presented above so I will exercise restraint. BruceHallman 13:31, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Bruce, you arnt exactly showing the reseach behind your claims either... Just because a country calls its elections secret ballot that doesnt make it so Grantplus 21:50, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Im all for this settlement. Castros position is clearly one of leader for life. Castro first seized power in 1959. Although he did do this in a spirit of benevolence the fact remains that as long as he lives he will never be removed from office. I disagree with Adam I dont expect the Cuban collapse to be similar to the Soviet collapse. The Soviet Union, there is no evidence of widespread dissent against Castro. There have been no major attempts from the Cuban citizens to overthrow the government, and the only other major attempt was the United States led Bay of Pigs invasion. Castro's Cuba does not try to be a true liberal democracy, instead it is a system that tries to guarentee every Cuban citizen food, health, and education. Prior to 1959 food, health and education were not being offerd to everyone, largely due the American influence that corrupted president Batista at the expense of the Cuban worker. Castro's revolution sought to bring food, health, and education to every Cuban from the workers all the way up; these however came at a large price nationalising industries away from rich american brought Cuban expulsion from economic action access to its (geographically) closest neighbor and from the worlds largest market. Castro also decided to cement his role as leader of the country, instead of bringing free speech and democracy back to the island like he promised he brought propaganda supportig the revolution of 1959. Instead of capitalism and free speech, where everyone is constantly working against each other Castro installed a Socialist regime to make descions that would (theoretically) unite the whole country towards towards a common prosperity. Whether or not he did a good job (or if any man ever can) is up in the air. Some insight to this may be offerd after his death. I think that at the moment Cuba resembles more closely to the former Yugoslavia under the role of Tito than any nation under the Soviet sphere of influence. However its collapse most likely will not be similar to that of Yugoslavia. Cuba views itself as a united Country, unlike Yugoslavia did.
When it comes to this issue i wouldnt trust any source that is pro american foreign policy for obvious reasons.
I don't want to read any more of this endless circular argument. I want Bruce and Zleitzen to tell me which bits of my text they don't like and suggest alternatives. I am sick of this argument, I am ready to deal and I promise to be nice, OK? Adam 00:31, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I think that is far too wordy and digressive, and I wasn't aware that Hugo Chavez had become an authority on democratic standards. I want a paragraph that begins
and then sets out in 100 words why Cuba is a democracy.
Adam 02:08, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I can write that part. I am trying to give the pro-Castro an editors an opportunity to set out their case for Cuba being a democracy. If they can't do so, I will have to try and do it myself. If they don't like what I write, they won't be able to complain that they weren't given the opportunity. Adam 03:19, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not asking you to give the readers your opinion, I'm asking you to summarise the views of "The Cuban government and its supporters", as the sentence clearly says. This is indeed describing the existing debate, which is between, on the one had, the Cuban government and its supporters, and, on the other, its critics. I am asking you and Bruce to give a summary of the "Cuba is a democracy" argument. You appear to have declined. I will wait and see what Bruce says. Adam 04:28, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Another suggestion: at some point in this debate, Bruce (I think) gave a link to a Cuban government website giving the official view of why Cuba is a democracy. If someone would like to give that link again, we could extract some text from there setting out the official view, thus saving pro-Castro editors the task. Adam 04:40, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I understand your position. I will wait and see what Bruce says. Adam 05:32, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Do you have a proposal or not? CJK 18:57, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Adam, I favor just going ahead and placing your changes in. As far as I can tell, BruceHallman seems to be more interested in stonewalling the process than actually making useful contributions. -- Bletch 19:33, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Incivilty matters. Why did you ignore my suggestion that we start by negotiating an agreement on the general outline of the article? Starting with an outline is an elementary writing technique. Why are we skipping that step and instead jumping into arguments about whether certain 'hot button' words must be included or not? My comment was directly relevant to collaboratively writing this section of the article about Government and Politics in Cuba. Regarding your 'implicity agreeing' statement, I have seen plenty of breach of Wikipedia policy, so explictly agreeing now could not hurt, could it? For instance including, can we all agree that we might collaborate better if we take to heart the part of WP:V that says "Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth""'. 90% of our disagreement could be avoided if we took that policy to heart. BruceHallman 22:08, 29 April 2006 (UTC) For instance:
I also suggest that we can avoid much of our fighting by writing the detail sections first, and save writing of the summary and introductory paragraphs until last. BruceHallman 22:13, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Bruce, I have two simple questions for you:
If the answers to these questions is yes, we can rapidly proceed to a settlement. I am happy to discuss changes to that text, provided its essential structure and length is maintained. If the answer is no, or more pointless arguments about process, we do not have a settlement and I will proceed unilaterally. Adam 03:29, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
You are misguided in your assertion that the common reason dissenters are imprisoned is that they collaborate wih foreign interests. That is just flat out wrong, Bruce, and you are simply spouting off Castro's propaganda. I suspect that this is the reason that Adam and others such as myself don't find your contributions helpful or useful. While everyone else is trying to establish a truthful article that our kids can use as a reference tool, you seem intent on pushing the "Cuba as Socialist Utopia" POV. You are doing an excellent job as Castro's spokesperson on Wikipedia, Fidel would be proud. Fortunately, this article is being watched very closely by the defenders of truth, and your little game isn't going to work. To illustrate my point, I'm assuming you are the person that wrote this: "I am no fan of Castro, but I disagree that the neo-con POV should be the only one presented. Let readers draw their own conclusions." (Forgive me if I am mistaken).Since when did freedom become a strictly neo-con POV?~~Kane 30 2006~~
Any sentence that begins as "The Cuban government and its supporters..." is pushing POV. Wikipedia is not about pushing certain POV. You cannot have a paragraph that begins like that and stating that that is neutrality. If there are two points of view it's much better to present a neutral point of view than two points of view. It keeps the content in question more neutral. More like REAL encyclopedia. I like the neutral tone of the Zleitzen's proposed last paragraph. I think that its tone is much better. Still, I think that it does not need quoting from Ollanta Humala and maybe instead it needs a quote from Human Rights Watch or some other more qualified body on democracy.
Futhermore, stating that one has not been to Cuba, and right after that making paralel with Soviet style goverments ... is at least a prejudice and qualifies that person's arguments for doubt. One cannot say if you are describing any European Soviet-style goverment, or the Cuban goverment itself. Wikipedia is about verifable facts. And when we are at making paralels, I think that Cuba is much more better compared to Tito's Yugoslavia than to anything else. Although Yugoslavia was much more economicaly powerfull. And it consisted of several nations. And ... You see, there are just too many differences between Cuba and the rest of the world. Cuban case should be always considered alone, without making any presumptions.--
RockyMM
22:24, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh you'd like that, wouldn't you? Sorry, comrade, no dice. You have rather given yourself away, here, Bruce. These comments show quite clearly that you are a communist, or at least someone who actively supports the Castro dictatorship, not just (as I was previously willing to believe) someone who is naive about the realities of Cuba. That being the case, and since you obviously have no interest in writing an accurate article, it is not possible to conclude a settlement with you to this dispute. And since Zleitzen (for different reasons) isn't willing to co-operate either, my offer is withdrawn. I will now proceed unilaterally. Adam 22:54, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Zleitzen's proposed text was hopelessly wordy and incoherent, and was just a collection of irrelevant opinions (who cares what Hugo Chavez thinks?) rather than a statement of the argument for Cuba being a democracy. Since Zleitzen won't, and Bruce can't, write a factual paragraph on this, I will do it myself, and they will have no grounds for complaint. Adam 23:58, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I could say something about the mis-use of our policies to push a POV but i wont Bruce.
Adam has offered a very reasonable settlement - i suggest it might be wise to take it.
Bruce's bleatings about "civility" are just a cover for his political agenda, which is to prevent the truth about the Castro dictatorship appearing at Wikipedia. I treat them with the contempt they deserve. My dictionary defines "verify" as "prove, confirm truth of." Wikipedia is about what is (a) true and (b) can be shown to be true. Adam 00:51, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Below is a sandbox for the Cuba Government section. All users can play in it and give it their best shot! -- Zleitzen 21:45, 24 April 2006 (UTC) User:Zleitzen/Cuba Government Sandbox
What is the point of yet another arena for arguing about whether Cuba is a democracy or not? The matter will be decided here or not at all. Adam 13:03, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, you can debate the matter elsewhere all you like, but any edits to the article itself will be subject to the same process of debate here as all previous edits have been. Adam 00:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
In Cuba education is free and mandatory. The current statistic of 96% comes from a biased source, the frist line of this source is a quote: "the choice is between capitalism and chaos". http://lanic.utexas.edu/la/cb/cuba/asce/cuba8/30smith.pdf
The current UN figure is 100% http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/cuba.html Grantplus 01:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
The difference seems unimportant. No-one disputes that Cuba has near universal literacy. Adam 13:03, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
No country has literally 100% literacy. "Near universal literacy" is certainly true. Adam 13:36, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I've sprotected because I see there's reverting against anons, and a sockpuppet account has just turned up elsewhere who may be heading here. If anyone thinks sprotection is inappropriate, let me know and I'll undo. Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 06:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
What criteria will you be using to decide when to unprotect the article? Adam 09:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
What does "sprotect" mean? Adam 00:23, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I see. I wasn't aware of this innovation. I don't think the problem here has been anon IPs or new accounts. The issue has been a deadlock between two groups of editors. Adam 00:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
It is a minor inconvenience for me, as I now have to log on to my old account to make edits. Although, something can be said for putting everything togeather in the sandbox. Mystork 05:24, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Regarding Adams recent edit delete "multi-party" qualifying the word "democracy", which suggests that Cuba might be some other kind of democracy. It isn't. Here is a good quote I found by Bob Huish, a graduate student at Queens University. [3]
It is indeed a good quote, illustrating as it does what is either the gross stupidity or the gross dishonesty (possibly both) of Cuba apologists. I suggest Mr Huish go to Havana and try to express overt opposition to the Castro government, or that he get one of his Cuban friends to try to nominate as a "Down with Castro" candidate at the next elections. He will soon learn the truth about Cuban democracy. Adam 01:07, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I hope we can settle down at "not a liberal democracy" As I said in the summary, it leaves less room for never-ending debate, and leaves the people who feel liberal democracy is the only kind happy, as well as the people who think democracy applies to Cuba in a different form. Mystork 05:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Countries are either democracies or they aren't. A democracy is a country in which the people are able to choose their own government from two or more alternatives able to compete freely for their support. Cuba is not a democracy, and that is what the article must say. Adam 05:41, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I didn't say "liberal democracy is the only kind of democracy." I gave a definition of democracy, and said that Cuba doesn't match that definition. Perhaps you'd like to give an alternative definition and we can debate that. Adam 05:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I asked you to give me an alternative definition of democracy. Adam 06:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I want to know your definition of democracy. Since you are insistent that Cuba is a democracy, presumably you know what the word means, and can give a definition of it. Adam 08:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
In NO way is Cuba a democracy. How did some grad student (not even a professor, which alone would hardly be a source) become the end-all, be-all source of information on Cuba's electoral process? I can say with absolute first-hand knowledge that ANYONE who expresses any opinion, overt or otherwise, contrary to castro and his regime, will be placed in jail or worse. The average sentence is 20 years and if someone is found organizing a political discussion, it's not surprising for that person to never be heard of again (usually executed by firing squad). Castro is a tyrant, and he simply feigns democracy. If the votes aren't counted, what good is an election? Here's a quote from the U.S. Cuba Democracy Act: "There is no sign that the Castro regime is prepared to make any significant concessions to democracy or to undertake any form of democratic opening. Efforts to suppress dissent through intimidation, imprisonment, and exile have accelerated since the political changes that have occurred in the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe." [5] mcmachete 11:50, 26 April 2006 (PST)
User:My Stork please read citations 4-13 on the top of the Cuba article to understand why Cuba is not a democracy. Please move on to other areas, I am sure you can make a meaningful contribution somewhere.~~Kane 26 April 2006~~
And I'll ask you the same question I have asked Mystork - what is your definition of a democracy? Adam 08:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Adam Carr recently provided twelve citations in support of his claim that 'cuba is not a democracy' is the only valid point of view about Cuba. Indeed his POV is a widely held POV, but it is not the only point of view. Also, it is very difficult to prove a negative. That is: to prove what Cuba is not. Of course, the onus is on Adam Carr to provide credible citation in support of his claim that his point of view is the only point of view.
Also, simply adding a large quantity of poor citations does not increase his credibility. Here are the twelve most recent citations, and none measure up to the high hurdle of proving a negative assertion:
I recommend that we move the disputed sentence off the main page to a sandbox until we reach consensus, perhaps with the help of a mediator? BruceHallman 13:44, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
No! Cuba is NOT a democracy. This topic has been argued to death, and the outcome is always the same. It is evident that there will always be a few die-hards that argue to the contrary in spite of all evidence, logic, and reason. The simple fact of the matter is that one cannot stand on a corner in Havana and hold a sign that says "Down with Fidel". That is not democracy! Bruce, while you have maintained good manners throughout, I have to say that it seems like you are playing devil's advocate and pushing this absurd debate when there are more constructive things all of us could be doing on Wikipedia.~~Kane 4 26 2006~~
It is an absurd debate, just like the whole dictator/leader/ruler debate. It's not just about freedom speech, it's about being able to freely and loudly oppose the govenment in power. The fact that they have elections(which many people smarter and more learned than myself call a farce) is not enough to call it a democracy. If it was truly a democracy, Castro would have been voted out of power decades ago! Just think about it. No leader is that good to stay in power legitimately for so long.~~Kane 4 26 2006~~
No, Bruce, we will not reach "consensus" on this issue, because consensus between diametrically opposed positions is not possible. So far as I can tell, now that Scott and Mystork have been banned, you are alone in arguing that Cuba is a democracy. Since you won't accept a ballot on the matter, there is no alternative to reverting your edits until you cease trying to impose your POV on this article. Adam 00:02, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
The POV that "Cuba is a democracy" is not a "significant" one outside the ranks of the Cuban Communist Party and its apologists. I am not opposed to a sentence in the politics section stating that "The Cuban Government and its supporters maintain that Cuba is a democracy" or words to that effect. But the sentence in the opening paragraph must reflect the majority/mainstream view, which is that Cuba is not a democracy. Adam 00:58, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Democacracy has absolutly nothing to do with the ability to vote for different candidates. The word means goverment by the people, when you elect someone you are elcting a represantative to make the decisions for you, so you could actually argue that US does not have a democracy(I wont even talk about the money needed to became a candidate in the US).
The discussion should not be about who is the head of goverment. Is the people of Cuba able to make decisions by themselves, do they have a system that evaluates the positions of the population and makes the decision the majority wants?(US would not pass on this test) Cuba is a form of democracy. However this is only my point of view, stating that Cuba is not a liberal democracy would be the most acurate in an encyclopedia. Chico 21:14, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
It all depends on how you define democracy. The Athenians came the closest to a true democracy, the only problem being that only male landowners could vote. In my opinion, a true democracy is where everyone votes directly. Everyone. Of course that's nigh impossible, but still. And one more thing, I don't think something the U.S. government put out is a valid citation, because the U.S. is obviously biased.
The U.S. definitely does not have a democracy either.
I couldn't figure out how to add something to the suggested settlement, but anyways, I liked Zleitzen's paragraph, and also, wouldn't someone know best if they had lived in Cuba?
In line with my suggestion above, here is my proposed settlement.
None of this is referenced at present, but if the general text is acceptable then references can be added. I am happy for those who think that Cuba is a democracy to change the sentence beginning "The Cuban government and its supporters maintain..." so that it better reflects their views (at reasonable length). Indeed I am keen to see their exposition of why Cuba is a democracy. But I will not agree to any watering down of the statements in the 2nd and 4th paragraphs. Adam 05:41, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Some comments on paragraph 4: The election process is managed by the state, not by the party. The relationship between the state and the party is extremely complex. Without meaning to cause offence, Adam, I don't think you've even begun to grasp (or to attempt to grasp) this relationship, so it might be best to avoid wild simplifications like 'effectively controlled by'. It doesn't help anything except to fudge the issue. With regard to there only being one candidate for each post in 2003, does this relate to the part of the national assembly elected from the street level, or from the mass organisation? (You ignore this fundamental part of the elction process). I have never heard this anywhere before, I find it intrigueing if true, although your interpretation of PCC-imposed cadidates is far from the only possible explanation - it could for example be that the community decides democratically who will go forward in a pre-election process (I have been to Cuba several times, and the level of collective community organisation makes this perfectly plausible). If you genuinely want to avoid POV, you should point out that whilst there may have only been one cadidate for each post in 2003, anybody can stand for election from the local level, they are restricted to a single side of A4 paper for their election manifesto, continue to receive the same wage they were on in their job previous to election, and are subject to recall by their electors at any time. All enitrely verifiable. It may also be good to have something on the historical development of the political system in Cuba, as there is a vast difference between the processes and structures of the early revolution and present, taking account of the 'rectification period', etc. -- Tom
I haven't been to Cuba, but I know enough about how Soviet-style systems work (and the Cuban system is a direct descendant of the 1936 Soviet Constitution) to know that however much window-dressing Communist regimes instal to fool gullible visitors (and I recommend Sidney and Beatrice Webb's Soviet Communism: A New Civilisation to you for the best-known example), the Communist Party controls the whole process from beginning to end. I am aware that the National Assembly is "elected" by two different processes, and I have no objection to this being mentioned (although this level of detail probably belongs at Elections in Cuba), so long as the impression is not created that these are genuine elections, because they are not. Both the "street" and the "mass organisations" in a Soviet-style system are controlled by the Party. The Party controls the media, has a monopoly of coercion and controls the courts - no more elaborate explanation is needed for the absence of opposition. I have been to Vietnam and Laos, where I was told exactly the same kind of stuff about how these countries are "real" democracies despite the communist parties' monopoly of power. The same kind of stuff was routinely spouted by the numerous apologists for the Soviet Union, Poland, the DDR, and even Romania and Albania, for decades until they were all made to look very silly in 1990. The same thing will happen to Cuba-apologists when Fidel dies and the regime collapses a few years from now. Adam 11:31, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
It is not clear that you welcome collaboration on your paragraphs presented above so I will exercise restraint. BruceHallman 13:31, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Bruce, you arnt exactly showing the reseach behind your claims either... Just because a country calls its elections secret ballot that doesnt make it so Grantplus 21:50, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Im all for this settlement. Castros position is clearly one of leader for life. Castro first seized power in 1959. Although he did do this in a spirit of benevolence the fact remains that as long as he lives he will never be removed from office. I disagree with Adam I dont expect the Cuban collapse to be similar to the Soviet collapse. The Soviet Union, there is no evidence of widespread dissent against Castro. There have been no major attempts from the Cuban citizens to overthrow the government, and the only other major attempt was the United States led Bay of Pigs invasion. Castro's Cuba does not try to be a true liberal democracy, instead it is a system that tries to guarentee every Cuban citizen food, health, and education. Prior to 1959 food, health and education were not being offerd to everyone, largely due the American influence that corrupted president Batista at the expense of the Cuban worker. Castro's revolution sought to bring food, health, and education to every Cuban from the workers all the way up; these however came at a large price nationalising industries away from rich american brought Cuban expulsion from economic action access to its (geographically) closest neighbor and from the worlds largest market. Castro also decided to cement his role as leader of the country, instead of bringing free speech and democracy back to the island like he promised he brought propaganda supportig the revolution of 1959. Instead of capitalism and free speech, where everyone is constantly working against each other Castro installed a Socialist regime to make descions that would (theoretically) unite the whole country towards towards a common prosperity. Whether or not he did a good job (or if any man ever can) is up in the air. Some insight to this may be offerd after his death. I think that at the moment Cuba resembles more closely to the former Yugoslavia under the role of Tito than any nation under the Soviet sphere of influence. However its collapse most likely will not be similar to that of Yugoslavia. Cuba views itself as a united Country, unlike Yugoslavia did.
When it comes to this issue i wouldnt trust any source that is pro american foreign policy for obvious reasons.
I don't want to read any more of this endless circular argument. I want Bruce and Zleitzen to tell me which bits of my text they don't like and suggest alternatives. I am sick of this argument, I am ready to deal and I promise to be nice, OK? Adam 00:31, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I think that is far too wordy and digressive, and I wasn't aware that Hugo Chavez had become an authority on democratic standards. I want a paragraph that begins
and then sets out in 100 words why Cuba is a democracy.
Adam 02:08, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I can write that part. I am trying to give the pro-Castro an editors an opportunity to set out their case for Cuba being a democracy. If they can't do so, I will have to try and do it myself. If they don't like what I write, they won't be able to complain that they weren't given the opportunity. Adam 03:19, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not asking you to give the readers your opinion, I'm asking you to summarise the views of "The Cuban government and its supporters", as the sentence clearly says. This is indeed describing the existing debate, which is between, on the one had, the Cuban government and its supporters, and, on the other, its critics. I am asking you and Bruce to give a summary of the "Cuba is a democracy" argument. You appear to have declined. I will wait and see what Bruce says. Adam 04:28, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Another suggestion: at some point in this debate, Bruce (I think) gave a link to a Cuban government website giving the official view of why Cuba is a democracy. If someone would like to give that link again, we could extract some text from there setting out the official view, thus saving pro-Castro editors the task. Adam 04:40, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I understand your position. I will wait and see what Bruce says. Adam 05:32, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Do you have a proposal or not? CJK 18:57, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Adam, I favor just going ahead and placing your changes in. As far as I can tell, BruceHallman seems to be more interested in stonewalling the process than actually making useful contributions. -- Bletch 19:33, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Incivilty matters. Why did you ignore my suggestion that we start by negotiating an agreement on the general outline of the article? Starting with an outline is an elementary writing technique. Why are we skipping that step and instead jumping into arguments about whether certain 'hot button' words must be included or not? My comment was directly relevant to collaboratively writing this section of the article about Government and Politics in Cuba. Regarding your 'implicity agreeing' statement, I have seen plenty of breach of Wikipedia policy, so explictly agreeing now could not hurt, could it? For instance including, can we all agree that we might collaborate better if we take to heart the part of WP:V that says "Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth""'. 90% of our disagreement could be avoided if we took that policy to heart. BruceHallman 22:08, 29 April 2006 (UTC) For instance:
I also suggest that we can avoid much of our fighting by writing the detail sections first, and save writing of the summary and introductory paragraphs until last. BruceHallman 22:13, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Bruce, I have two simple questions for you:
If the answers to these questions is yes, we can rapidly proceed to a settlement. I am happy to discuss changes to that text, provided its essential structure and length is maintained. If the answer is no, or more pointless arguments about process, we do not have a settlement and I will proceed unilaterally. Adam 03:29, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
You are misguided in your assertion that the common reason dissenters are imprisoned is that they collaborate wih foreign interests. That is just flat out wrong, Bruce, and you are simply spouting off Castro's propaganda. I suspect that this is the reason that Adam and others such as myself don't find your contributions helpful or useful. While everyone else is trying to establish a truthful article that our kids can use as a reference tool, you seem intent on pushing the "Cuba as Socialist Utopia" POV. You are doing an excellent job as Castro's spokesperson on Wikipedia, Fidel would be proud. Fortunately, this article is being watched very closely by the defenders of truth, and your little game isn't going to work. To illustrate my point, I'm assuming you are the person that wrote this: "I am no fan of Castro, but I disagree that the neo-con POV should be the only one presented. Let readers draw their own conclusions." (Forgive me if I am mistaken).Since when did freedom become a strictly neo-con POV?~~Kane 30 2006~~
Any sentence that begins as "The Cuban government and its supporters..." is pushing POV. Wikipedia is not about pushing certain POV. You cannot have a paragraph that begins like that and stating that that is neutrality. If there are two points of view it's much better to present a neutral point of view than two points of view. It keeps the content in question more neutral. More like REAL encyclopedia. I like the neutral tone of the Zleitzen's proposed last paragraph. I think that its tone is much better. Still, I think that it does not need quoting from Ollanta Humala and maybe instead it needs a quote from Human Rights Watch or some other more qualified body on democracy.
Futhermore, stating that one has not been to Cuba, and right after that making paralel with Soviet style goverments ... is at least a prejudice and qualifies that person's arguments for doubt. One cannot say if you are describing any European Soviet-style goverment, or the Cuban goverment itself. Wikipedia is about verifable facts. And when we are at making paralels, I think that Cuba is much more better compared to Tito's Yugoslavia than to anything else. Although Yugoslavia was much more economicaly powerfull. And it consisted of several nations. And ... You see, there are just too many differences between Cuba and the rest of the world. Cuban case should be always considered alone, without making any presumptions.--
RockyMM
22:24, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh you'd like that, wouldn't you? Sorry, comrade, no dice. You have rather given yourself away, here, Bruce. These comments show quite clearly that you are a communist, or at least someone who actively supports the Castro dictatorship, not just (as I was previously willing to believe) someone who is naive about the realities of Cuba. That being the case, and since you obviously have no interest in writing an accurate article, it is not possible to conclude a settlement with you to this dispute. And since Zleitzen (for different reasons) isn't willing to co-operate either, my offer is withdrawn. I will now proceed unilaterally. Adam 22:54, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Zleitzen's proposed text was hopelessly wordy and incoherent, and was just a collection of irrelevant opinions (who cares what Hugo Chavez thinks?) rather than a statement of the argument for Cuba being a democracy. Since Zleitzen won't, and Bruce can't, write a factual paragraph on this, I will do it myself, and they will have no grounds for complaint. Adam 23:58, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I could say something about the mis-use of our policies to push a POV but i wont Bruce.
Adam has offered a very reasonable settlement - i suggest it might be wise to take it.
Bruce's bleatings about "civility" are just a cover for his political agenda, which is to prevent the truth about the Castro dictatorship appearing at Wikipedia. I treat them with the contempt they deserve. My dictionary defines "verify" as "prove, confirm truth of." Wikipedia is about what is (a) true and (b) can be shown to be true. Adam 00:51, 1 May 2006 (UTC)