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Are we ready for a 1st round peer review yet? -- Scott Grayban 07:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Who are these "peers"? Some further comments:
Bletch, you have reinserted the statement "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy" in the first paragraph (again). This comes after a week of edit wars, blocks and bans over this issue. Please review talk page history and cite a source for this. For guidance I provided the encarta description of Cuban democracy, I'll repeat it here;
Democracy is very broad term that is not limited to particular political systems. Encarta recognise this and write accordingly, keeping to encylopedic standards. The communsist state argument was hammered out at length above. And personally I believe there is a problem of bias in relying on US military and government sources on these matters. Rather like relying on Fidel Castro's opinions of the US to inform the United States article. -- Zleitzen 12:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
It's a tricky business, Scott. But terms such as democracy, communist state and socialist cannot be used in "short hand" in an encyclopedia. Each term has to be used in the proper form. This is why other encyclopedias use particular language and terminology (see encarta above or encyclopedia britannica entries on Cuba etc). Bletch's statement contradicts that method. Although I may believe in passing that "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy", I am creating a short hand for the term that does not correspond with the true definition. Btw, I thought there was some consensus that the first paragraph wouldn't contain such political detail in any case? -- Zleitzen 13:21, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Another conflict arises from providing alternative POV's on this. ie. Cuba is a Socialist or Communist State depending on the person's view. By that rationale an article on (say) Ireland could carry the (albeit unlikely) statement "Ireland is a democratic or theocratic depending on the person's view". That is a poor example, but do you see the problems here? Who has this different view? -- Zleitzen 13:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Scott Grayban 13:37, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Cuba is a Socialist Republic (as in UK is a constitutional monarchy), in which the Communist Party of Cuba is the sole legal political party. That I believe is the correct entry and corresponds with the terminology of other encyclopedias etc. Although the Bletch edit I query here was "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy". -- Zleitzen 13:44, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Adam, Why don't you stop the reverting for a bit and talk here and lets hammer out the issue of "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy." and be done with it now. Or does the need of another block in order before we can get this worked out in the talk? -- Scott Grayban 13:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
"Cuba is a Socialist Republic , in which the Communist Party of Cuba is the sole legal political party." isn't correct either. The Communist Party of Cuba is not the sole political party. They do allow other's to participate. However The Communist Party of Cuba does hold the majority of the political seats which does make them the ruling party. -- Scott Grayban 13:50, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually it is the sole legal political party. Some self-proclaimed political parties claim to operate, but they are not recognized by the constitution. Those who run for office, however, do not have to be a member of any political party. On another note, this statement "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy.", is an obvious POV and not a fact so it should be permanently removed. The rest of the article is political enough. Comandante 13:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
The communist party is the only legal political party in cuba, according to the Cuban constitution and all other sources including US Government. [1] -- Zleitzen 14:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Encyclopedia Britannica [2] alongside the above mentioned legally binding Cuban Constitution -- Zleitzen 14:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
You can play word games with the term "democracy", but in the end if you have a party with a monopoly on political activity and other parties or forms of opposition cannot play a serious role, then the country in question is not a democracy. -- Bletch 14:45, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I didn't realise you were asking for a source to go within the article itself. Why not use the Cuban Constitution and keep the earlier phrase?-- Zleitzen 15:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
No problem, Scott. Regardless, the Cuban constitution is the best possible source for this legal matter, and it's linked within the article. (Or it was the last time I looked!)-- Zleitzen 16:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Scott, I am curious about the source of the "Can't use Encyclopedia Britannica as a source because the user is required to buy a subscription to see the entire article." rule. Commonly that information is available for free in public libraries who share there subscription of the online Encyclopedia Britanica to the public for free. Indeed, many people can only afford to access Wikipedia from public libraries (because they cannot afford computers and cannot afford to pay for a dedicated personal internet connection). Or, when I cannot afford to pay the subscription fee for a print magazine (or buy a book), I go to the public library to read their copy for free. BruceHallman 15:43, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok now I am getting tired of this. The next revert done without talking on the talk page and getting this worked out will not only find themselves blocked for a long time. There will be no more reverts by anyone unless there is vandalism period. Everyone is violating the WP:3RR here. Comandante is looking for such a ban. -- Scott Grayban 14:03, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I just stated my reason for deleting that POV statement and now your threatening to ban me. That's typical. I wonder why you haven't threatened to ban Bletch who keeps on sneaking his bias into the article? Comandante 14:11, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Scott discussed a ban concerning Adam's revert above, Commandante. I see no bias here. -- Zleitzen 14:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I have told him to stop as well. I'll do it again too Bletch if you revert or change this article in any manner other then to remove vandalism I'll have you blocked from here. This WP:3RR blantant violation will stop one way or another. -- Scott Grayban 14:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Bletch just reverted the article. Comandante 14:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
You need to accept that the days of communist rule over this article are over. Adam 14:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
You need to accept that Cuba is a sovereign, Socialist state, and that at the end of the day, there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. Comandante 14:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
So are you guys going to do anything about Bletch? Or are you going to sit around and hope that i revert him so you can block me as well? Comandante 14:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I just issued the last WP:3RR warning for Adam, Comandante, and Bletch. And i'll post it here as well so that everyone can see it and can't claim I'm being biased here.
Since you are an active participant in this
Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert a single page more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the effect of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you.
In the section above Bletch wrote: "the question was whether it is a democracy or not." Yes indeed, and repeatedly I have been trying to engage you, Bletch, in a discussion of just this question, though I get a clear impression that you evade our efforts to engage in a discussion of this question. Re-read the message archives and you will see many questions directed to you about this issue which you did not answer. Restating a couple key questions: Please cite a reference that democracy is required to have parties, and if yes, how many parties? In other words, how correct is your assertion that a one party democracy not a democracy? You have not demonstrated that your assertion is not original research. Also, I grant that many people share your POV that democracy in Cuba is very disfunctional. Still, why is a bad democracy not a type of democracy? You *repeatedly* revert your POV sentence that Cuba is not a democracy, and your POV to be accurate perhaps should say that Cuba has a bad democracy. BruceHallman 15:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Scott, I can read Encyclopedia Britannica, including both the paper and the online version, for free in my local public library. BruceHallman 20:03, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm using other encyclopaedias as examples of method within a talk page, not as sources for the article, Scott.-- Zleitzen 16:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I can't read the whole thing either. I'm just giving examples of how encyclopedic standards are applied. -- Zleitzen 16:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Zleitzen and Sgrayban, you guys can drop the argument about Britannica. Zleitzen is free to cite it because Wikipedia editors have always been free to cite books and non-free access websites. At the same time, Zleitzen's citation of Britannica is irrelvant for reasons I stated above. 172 | Talk 16:33, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Ummm, 172 Right now I'm trying to get a vote on something different here and would like to get just one thing agreed on so we can move on. 3 disputes right now and all I'm looking for is one to get resolved and we are close to it. -- Scott Grayban 16:38, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your editing efforts I can see that you spent a lot of time and thought which I appreciate. Though regretfully, what you wrote includes too much point of view and too little citation and too much original research. So, I must add a neutrality dispute box to the section. Perhaps it would make sense to move it to a sandbox to hash out the differences? I am not arguing that the previous Human Rights section is better or should be reverted as it had many problems too.
There is so much in your section that quickly listing all the specifics of my dispute is not possible. However, starting with the first sentence, you wrote "...the rights of the individual..." as if we all agree what the rights of the individual should be. In reality your concept is ethnocentric, similar to the systemic bias problem that pervades Wikipedia. In the second sentence you write of "the states political aims" as if there is no validity to the concept of ".socialist state of workers, organized with all and for the good of all... " Again, ethnocentric, you are bringing a Free Market capitalistic value belief system towards the forming the basis of your condemnation of a social system that deliberately eschews capitalism.
Can we at least agree that the context of their human rights falls within the context of a socialist society, and that applying capitalistic values on that system is a logical falacy? BruceHallman 16:12, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
...you are bringing a Free Market capitalistic value belief system towards the forming the basis of your condemnation of a social system that deliberately eschews capitalism. BruceHallman, you're way off. Virtually the entire section can be referenced by citing the Cuban constitution itself. Cuba is a one-party state in which the state is constitutionally subordinate to the Communist Party, and the government restricts freedom of speech, association, assembly, press, and movement outside the control of the party. Adam Carr's section elaborates on this fact in a straightforward and factual manner. 172 | Talk 16:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I would like a vote posted in this section and please only sign with a support or oppose. No need for anything else to be posted.
The vote is for the use of "Cuba is a Socialist Republic , where other political parties are allowed to participate but the Communist Party of Cuba has the majority of seat's and vote's." for the article.
Support -- Scott Grayban 16:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC) Support BruceHallman 20:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I am going to ignore this poll. I encourage other users to ignore it as well. Adam Carr has already expended enough energy settling this matter. This matter no longer needs to be discussed. 172 | Talk 16:49, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Hello all -- I am here as part of the medcabal to help us come to a solution to part of the article conflict.
I am somewhat familiar with the kind of dispute that is going on. However, the talk page here is huge, and before joining in I wanted to check to see if people wanted me here. Please let me know what the consensus is, i.e., do you want a third party to come in and help out, or are discussions moving along well without me? [4] If the former, what is the main locus of the dispute?
Sdedeo ( tips) 20:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, thanks. Is there a particular point in the article where people are battling? Can you maybe provide a diff? In the end we will need to include all POVs, of course, following WP:NPOV (which also means that superminority POVs are given less weight and prominence.) Perhaps putting in some sources and in general sourcing POVs (e.g., "According to Amnesty International..." "According to the US State Department..." "According to the Cuban government...") will help resolve things? Sdedeo ( tips) 20:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure we can find sources to discuss what to call Cuba's political system. Can you provide sources that state that Cuba is a democracy? And sources that dispute that? Sdedeo ( tips) 20:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, now we need some folks to weigh in with sources that declare Cuba is not a democracy. Sdedeo ( tips) 21:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone spot the out-country-out? Adam 01:24, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Anyone realize this yet or not that there are only 3 words that is making this article POV ? Communist, Socialist, and Democracy. The same 3 words that comminusts and socialist use in there anti-american propaganda and the same 3 words used in American propaganda. Have we not learned anything at all? Adam is bent on labeling Cuba as a communist state just like the US. Government does. Cuba use the samething in order to provoke hate towards the US. See anything wrong at all ? No one will be happy until 1 is dead and the other wins. Samething for the opposite countries. -- Scott Grayban 02:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I am going to repeat this question: we need some folks to weigh in with sources that declare Cuba is not a democracy.
Just to be explicit, we need external sources: e.g., Amnesty International? Some other human rights group? Another government?
We can't proceed without this.
Sdedeo ( tips) 05:05, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Above links found with Google search using the term Cuba is not a democracy -- Scott Grayban 20:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Hee hee. Great. Some of these are not the best (e.g., the NIH one!) but this is an excellent place to start. Adam, since you are the strongest opponent of the use of the word "democracy", do you have any links to add?
I see the structure of the para going something like "The Cuban constitution establishes, at least in principle, a state that has the main features of a democracy. However, numerous sources dispute the idea that Cuba is a democracy in any real sense. Source X says. Source Y says. Source Z says."
Sdedeo ( tips) 20:25, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Columbia University is one of the leaders of research of Governments and even in there research I find..
On October 19, 1998 voting by secret ballot yielded 515 municipal delegates. The national assembly is also fully democratic but nominations are carried out by mass organizations and citizens committees. 1.6 million people were consulted by the citizens committee and 60,000 were put forward on the first electoral list. Cuba uses computers to allow review of the candidates and their records, including Fidel Castro himself who received 98% of the vote in the last election. Another sign of the popularity of socialism, despite the hardships imposed by imperialism, is that no more than 10 percent of the ballots were spoiled, a protest that anti-Communist groups urged.
That clearly shows a "democracy" even if its weak. -- Scott Grayban 20:31, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
OK! Let's wait for Adam to weigh in here with his sources. It looks like we'll have a range of opinions: "Democracy... weak democracy... really very weak democracy... not in any sense a democracy", which we can then source to various groups and governments. Sdedeo ( tips) 20:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks very much both Bruce and Zleitzen -- I suggest we wait for Adam to weigh in now. Sdedeo ( tips) 00:56, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
The EU document seems to me to be an accurate description of the Cuban political system. Adam 01:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
That statement is not in dispute. The statement in dispute is the statement that Cuba is the only country in the Western Hemisphere which is not a democracy. The EU document makes it clear on my reading that Cuba cannot be called a democracy, because it is a one-party state in which no serious opposition to the regime is permitted. Are BruceHallman and Scott Grayban going to accept that proposition? If yes, then the dispute is over. If not, then we have not progressed. Adam 01:49, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I am absolutely "in denial" that Cuba is a democracy of any description. The basic prerequisites for democracy are (a) freedom of political organisation and (b) freedom of expression. Cuba has neither of these, and the Castro regime is making no moves to allow them to exist. Cuba is a dictatorship, plain and simple. The fact that the usual gaggle of "Pasters for Peace" and similar gullible idiots choose to deny this does not alter the fact. I could quote you reams of similar rubbish uttered by similar people about Hitler, Stalin, Franco, Mao and even Pol Pot. Adam 02:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
[11] That took 20 seconds. I'll give you a google lesson some time. Adam 02:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Adam. For the record (if other users can't access that article), Adam sourced an economist article Not always with us dated Sep 15th 2005 which states;
You said: "Quote me one article that clearly states "Cuba is the only country in the Western Hemisphere which is not a democracy" that is NOT Americian Government influenced and I'll concede." I quoted you a plain statement from a reputable and independent source, and now you are dodging and wriggling out of that commitment, as I knew you would. Why should I not conclude you are a common liar? Adam 03:28, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I repeat: you said: "Quote me one article that clearly states "Cuba is the only country in the Western Hemisphere which is not a democracy" that is NOT Americian Government influenced and I'll concede." I quoted you a plain statement from a reputable and independent source. Why will you not now keep your word and concede? Adam 03:56, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Could I propose that these issues of Cuban democracy/lack-of be contained in the main body of the article? Rather than in the brief opening paragraph. Does everyone agree on this? -- Zleitzen 03:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
No. Adam 03:28, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think there's too much to worry about. Adam provided a relevant source as requested. I guess he must be still grumpy about the cricket last year! ;-)-- Zleitzen 04:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Some opinions count for more than others. I'll take The Economist over you any day. Adam 13:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
This discussion has gone off the rails. Adam, you need to be more polite when dealing with other contributors. Sdedeo ( tips) 16:15, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Next comment restored from diff after being deleted by User:Adam_Carr without pointing a link to it as required I'm no Historian, Politician, Economist, Journalist, Academic, Wiki-scholar and giving my honest opinion the whole history of Cuba's communist politics on this page is grossly and undebatebly biased. Its style of language and tone is immaculetly vulgar and poorly constructed. I think the entire history of Cuba in the 20th central deserves a good clean up and dispute over its supposed neutrality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.23.247.222 ( talk • contribs)
Adam Carr deleted [13] out this talk page entry Revision as of 00:48, 16 April 2006 82.23.247.222 entitled 'An honest opinion' without giving any explanation as to his reason for the deletion. Although the comment which Adam deleted is blunt, it is not a personal attack and is rather a general criticism, so I am left to wonder about why Adam deleted the comment. Adam, please explain. BruceHallman 02:23, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Please do not remove messages from your talk page. Talk pages exist as a record of communication, and in any case, comments are available through the page history. You're welcome to archive your talk page, but be sure to provide a link to any deleted comments. Thanks.
If we are going to have a mediation here, we need to stay focused. Please everyone stop misbehaving; don't remove talk page posts for now (except to archive), and please leave the lecturing to me! I am sure we can resolve this problem very quickly; the next thing we need is some sources (see my post above.) Thanks, Sdedeo ( tips) 17:56, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I could not find specific discussion on this part of the text so I removed it because it is a point of view and not a fact that providing health care and education for a population is impossible. "Cuba’s economic dependence on the Soviet Union was deepened by Castro’s determination to build his vision of a socialist society in Cuba. This entailed the provision of free health care and education for the entire population – an ambition which has proved unaffordable even in many developed countries, let alone in a small country with very limited resources and restricted trade. Through the 1970s and ‘80s the Soviets were prepared to subsidise all this in exchange for the rather dubious strategic asset of an ally under the noses of the United States and the undoubted propaganda value of Castro’s considerable prestige in the developing world."
I would also defend changing Communist Cuba. Communism is a form of society without state, Cuba has a state and therefore should not be called such. Socialist Cuba would be more apropriate. I will cite sources on this matter soon.
Also, this is the first edit I make in wikipedia, I would like to apologize in advance for any mistakes I may have made. Chico 12:39, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
It will be useless for us contributors to argue about whether Cuba is "democratic" or not, because for one thing we contributors are never going to agree on a definition of "democracy". Having president freely elected by the people means one thing to a lot of Americans (yes, we elected Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton and Bush) and another thing to many other people (no, the electoral college elected him or Supreme Court appointed him). That argument will never settled.
What we MIGHT be able to agree on is what the differences have been over the last several decades between, say, the U.S. government and the Castro government. I think a table would be useful. We could list factors such as free press and free speech during the election period (US yes, Cuba no), must be a citizen of the country to run for office (US: yes, Cuba: er, when was the last election, 1959?); which leads to frequency of presidential elections (US every 4 years, Cuba: once per lifetime of president?).
These things are hard to see in a paragraph, because of word-wrapping. And there are many other differences and possibly some similarities in the form of government, both actual and "on paper".
The analysis above applies to whether Cuba is "Communist" or not; we will never be able to agree on a definition of "communism". Some emphasize its political aspects, others emphasize its economic aspects, still others speak of ideology.
It would be better to describe the politics, economy and culture of Cuba under Castro one aspect at a time. Take emigration, for example. Is it allowed, forbidden, or what? For those who choose to leave Cuba (even temporarily), may they travel as a family, or must some family members stay behind? If so, why? (as hostages to ensure return?) And if it's forbidden, is it a capital crime to leave the country without permission? Is the Navy authorized to sink boats with artillery fire on their way out of territorial waters?
After each aspect is listed and described as thoroughly, accurately and fairly as possible, I suggest we then turn our attention to commentary. Fans of Cuba will no doubt assert that the objectively listed factors prove (in their eyes) that Cuba is "democratic", "free", an excellent example of "socialism" (not "Communism"), etc. Opponents of the Castro regime will certainly use the same list to prove (in their eyes) that Cuba is "undemocratic", "totalitarian" and a typical example of "Communism".
But let's write the facts before the commentary, please. -- Uncle Ed 14:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Although I am an editor who is not a particular supporter of Castro, I still believe that this article should be incommensurable. Meaning that Cuban policies should not be overtly depicted in comparison to other models. To do this would set a precedent in wikipedia and open the article up to charges of systemic bias. Again I urge that editors read established, carefully worded, peer-reviewed encyclopedias to learn how to present Cuba in an encyclopedic fashion. -- Zleitzen 14:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
This discussion is going off the rails again; Ed's original suggestion ("show, don't tell") is I think the key to resolving conflicts here. It's important to remember that "democracy" is a very fuzzy concept (Ancient Greece: a democracy? Pre-civil War US? etc.) All we can do is describe what is happening in Cuba, and describe how others view these things. Sdedeo ( tips) 18:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
User:Sgrayban just added the POV box. Would you please describe the nature and details of the dispute so that we may negotiate an agreement to resolve the dispute? BruceHallman 15:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry people, but you are all flipping out and arguing with each other, and it is making it hard for me to mediate here.
We have a set of sources: Some of them (e.g., the Cuban constitution itself, the pastors for peace, which seems to be a non-negligible group) say Cuba is a democracy, some say it has democratic features but is not a full democracy (e.g., the State department, Columbia), some say it isn't a democracy (EU, Economist), some say it shouldn't be called anything but a dictatorship (Free Cuba group).
We are going to have to state all, or most, of these positions in the article.
Does anybody object to the rough sketch paragraph that looks like this: "The Cuban constitution establishes, at least in principle, a state that has the main features of a democracy. However, numerous sources dispute the idea that Cuba is a democracy in any real sense. Source X says. Source Y says. Source Z says."
Sdedeo ( tips) 16:12, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Just looking at the current version:
This actually seems rather OK to me, although we could use more of the sources that people have identified. Anyway, that's another possibility. Again, I'll just wait for Adam to weigh in on whether either of these versions are OK with him. (Actually, AFAICT, Adam isn't online and hasn't been editing for awhile.) Sdedeo ( tips) 17:47, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Please do not insult other editors, 172, and please try to assume good faith. Let's not derail things with an argument; can you let us know if you are OK with either of the two suggested paragraphs in this section. Sdedeo ( tips) 18:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Again, we are getting derailed. Please everyone try to stay focused. Since Adam and now 172 both seem to be the main opponents here, let's wait to see whether or not they are OK with the two paragraphs in this section. Sdedeo ( tips) 19:01, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
172, your incivility is interferring with us trying to come to a consensus here, please lay off. Can you please let us know if you are OK with either of the two paragraphs above, and will you please stop reverting, as I asked you to do below. If you and other editors cannot do this, I will request page protection. Sdedeo ( tips) 20:05, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
If you revert the page again, you will be in violation of WP:3RR, and judging from your block log you know what happens next. I have never advocated putting inaccurate information in the article. Sdedeo ( tips) 20:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Please stop reverting; we need to let the article develop and evolve. Please let me know if you wish to participate in the mediation or not. Sdedeo ( tips) 20:53, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, look, I hesitate to say anything since I feel like I might be adding fuel to the fire, but per Freedom House [14], and this is a direct quote regarding politcal rights: "Cubans cannot change their government through democratic means. Fidel Castro dominates the political system, having transformed the country into a one-party state with the Cuban Communist Party (PCC) controlling all governmental entities from the national to the local level. Communist structures were institutionalized by the 1976 constitution installed at the first congress of the PCC. The constitution provides for a National Assembly, which designates the Council of State. It is that body which in turn appoints the Council of Ministers in consultation with its president, who serves as head of state and chief of government. However, Castro is responsible for every appointment and controls every lever of power in Cuba in his various roles as president of the Council of Ministers, chairman of the Council of State, commander in chief of the Revolutionary Armed Forces (FAR), and first secretary of the PCC." That plainly states that semantics aside, Cuba is not a democracy. Freedom House is an independent NGO that has no ties the the U.S. Government that I am aware of, and I believe it is a credible source in this case. 24.107.121.69 23:48, 17 April 2006 (UTC)--
Everyone stop reverting now: we must allow the article to develop in the usual wiki fashion. I have undone the series of reversions that just occured. There is no way we will reach consensus unless we allow the article to evolve in the usual fashion. If you have a problem with a particular passage, edit it, modify it, whatever, but do not simply revert. Sdedeo ( tips) 18:53, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Would argue that Cuba is the most democratic country in the world. There are no free elections, no freedom of speech, and no other political parties. Unless anyone can prove that wrong, this will be the extent of my discussion. CJK 19:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
CJK, I think you just joined the discussion -- welcome. I am here as a mediator to make sure we can get an NPOV section on Cuba's political system and human rights record; our main goal right now is to accumulate sources which are sorely lacking. Please do not revert the page; the only way we will reach a conclusion here is if we allow the article to evolve from its present unsatisfactory state. Sdedeo ( tips) 20:08, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
This is a good idea -- thank you -- but first of all I'd like to establish if 172, Adam and (now) CJK are OK with the basic idea of sourcing claims and counterclaims about the nature of the Cuban political system. Sdedeo ( tips) 20:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
We are going to have to cite more than one source in order to resolve this conflict. Are you OK with that? Are there any sources in particular you object to? In general, avoiding wordiness is good, but sometimes on the wiki it's not possible. Sdedeo ( tips) 20:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that people disagree on how to describe the Cuban political system, and it is one of wikipedia's jobs to report that, and to source those things. We really do need to cite other sources.
You and others are reverting each other and flaming each other on the talk page: mediation is certaintly necessary. Do not waste my time: if you no longer wish to participate in the mediation, let me know now.
Sdedeo ( tips) 20:38, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Do you wish to participate in the mediation or not? Please give me a firm answer. Sdedeo ( tips) 20:47, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, you are refusing to participate in the mediation. Thanks for letting me know sooner rather than later. I will leave some final thoughts on the talk page, and close the mediation at the medcabal. Please feel free to make a new request to the medcabal. Sdedeo ( tips) 21:06, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
If some don't think the U.S. or any other western country is a democracy because the corporations throw around their money, then they should argue it out on that page. That arguement has no bearing on Cuba, and the blindingly obvious need not be sourced. If we need citation that Cuba is not a democracy, then maybe we need citation that Cuba is in Latin America and not Africa. CJK 20:49, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
172 has refused to participate in the mediation; since medcabal is totally informal, there's not much I can do. 172, feel free to request a new mediation from the cabal if you like, but be aware that you don't get to pick who you want the mediator to be.
Some final thoughts. Re: the article itself: the "Human Rights" section is abysmal by current wiki standards. There are no sources (zero!) provided, the presentation is extremely confused, and minor and major things are all mixed up. This section needs a real rewrite. Re: the "democracy" debate: I've made it clear what I think the "canonical" wiki solution should be.
Re: user behavior. I am amazed that both 172 and Adam -- users who have a huge number of edits and have a record of constructive contributions elsewhere on the wiki -- have behaved so poorly during this process. Both 172 and Adam have been rude and uncivil to other editors. There is no excuse for that, and it has materially impeded getting on with improving the article. Sgrayban, CJK and 172 (again) have been involved in a revert war, which is ridiculous.
I urge everyone to stop the incivility and rudeness right now, and I urge people who encounter it not to rise to the bait and to simply ignore (i.e., not respond) to this sort of thing. The latter suggestion here is just as important as the former: don't allow yourself to get wound up. I wish everyone the best, and I hope people can get back to the real business of creating an encyclopedia sooner rather than later. Sdedeo ( tips) 21:17, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, that's not the way the medcabal works in general -- it's hard enough getting any mediator, let alone one made to order. In the meantime, and I can say this now that I'm no longer involved, please don't thank me; you have wasted my time by participating in a mediation up until you didn't get the result you have been continually revert-warring back to.
I've seen behavior like yours before (you're the third one): first you participate in the mediation, although you dish out a good amount of rudeness and incivility all around. Then as we move towards a consensus, and you don't have much ground to stand on, you declare that the prose is inelegant. Finally, there's a coda where I go back and forth trying to get you to declare clearly whether or not you want to participate in the mediation -- that took a few rounds.
Sdedeo ( tips) 23:13, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I posted repeatedly that I was here as a mediator, titled sections with "medcabal", and explained in detail why I was here; you had ample time to declare that you resented or refused this. While you claim now that you were unaware that you were participating in a mediation, I find that rather hard to believe. I don't believe I wasted my time, I believe you wasted my time, and further that you are quite aware of it. That's the last I'll say on this matter; fortunately wikipedia is a large enough space that we don't have to encounter each other again. Sdedeo ( tips) 00:09, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to raise this to the next level in haste or unilaterally, but per the Dispute_resolution procedure, the next step would be to request arbitration. Are there other people in this group of editors who are willing to jointly request this matter be appealed to the Arbitration Committee? BruceHallman 21:31, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I support the request to move this dispute to the next level of the Dispute_resolution procedure. -- Zleitzen 22:11, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
This dispute is getting ridiculous. Its just between the vast majority who recognize that Cuba is undemocratic versus the tiny minority who say it might be. Due weight should be enforced and I'm sure the arbcom would agree (though given my past experience, I could very well be wrong). CJK 00:45, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but this the opposing side is generally over-represented on Wikipedia. CJK 23:27, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
The RFC didn't have a pointer to the discussion page, so I'm starting one. The text currently reads:
This seems accurate and NPOV to me. If someone says otherwise, please respond to this comment. -- FRCP11 01:14, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Chico 01:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi
FRCP11, I requested the Rfc. But have added the "pluralist" since then to make it less subjective. I believe that
OK, we disagree. I don't believe that the one notable thing about Cuba is that it's a Communist dictatorship on the US's doorstep. I believe the European Union when they catagorise Cuba as a Socialist Republic (see source). I also believe that the term "Communist state" originated in Western society from the fact that the vast majority of such states are or were run by Communist parties who hold a monopoly on political power. Therefore the label "Communist state" this should be discussed in those terms. -- Zleitzen 03:39, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
The current wording of that sentence is POV. It reflects a political attitude commonly heard in right wing circles of the USA which is not the appropriate neutral tone necessary in an encyclopedic article for a global audience. Don't misunderstand me, I am not arguing that your point of view is wrong, or that your point of view is not 'true' to you, just that it is not universally 'true', and that it is not neutral. BruceHallman 05:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
With minor revisions for style, I'm okay with the Hallman edit to include "widely criticized." I'm going to add a clause for human rights problems. -- FRCP11 15:03, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
One of the things both 172 and I have learned during our long experience at Wikipedia (partly through several long disputes with each other), is that when dealing with people who are determined to make an article conform to their ideological proconceptions, it is necessary to adopt robust tactics (within the law, but robust). Anyone who knows about the prolonged battle waged by me (and others) with the LaRouche cult at a series of articles will know (a) that these tactics are sometimes necessary, and (b) that they are effective - the LaRouchite "Herschelkrustofky" was eventually banned from Wikipedia.
I was asked to review this article, which I had not previously seen, because BruceHallman and Scott Greyban were running it as their own private Fidel Castro fan page. I think any impartial person reviewing the article as it was before my arrival and as it is now will see that it has been greatly improved, particularly the history and politics sections (other parts still need work). Bruce and Scott and their friends have resisted the reform of this article at every step, arguing for a straight-out pro-Castro position on the most elementary questions (such as whether Cuba is a democracy). I point out that they are doing the same thing at Human rights in Cuba and Elections in Cuba. I haven’t looked in detail at History of Cuba yet (it’s on my list), but I’ve no doubt the same is true there also.
I am naturally reluctant to accuse people I don't know of being Communists, but what other conclusion can I come to about such wilful denial of obvious facts? Of course I have my own POV - I am a social democrat who is opposed to oppressive regimes of all kinds, including Communists ones. The difference is that my POV requires me to tell the truth about Cuba, whereas theirs apparently requires them to defend blatant falsehoods. If they said “yes Cuba is a dictatorship of the proletariat and we support that,” I could at least respect the integrity of their view, even though rejecting it. But I cannot respect this dishonest insistence on promoting obvious falsehoods.
I am not opposed to any attempt at mediation of this matter, but I will not compromise on the essential question. Cuba is a communist dictatorship and must be described accurately, even if that precise phrase is not used. The statement that Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy is true, relevant and important, and should be in the opening paragraph. Adam 02:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry you find the truth insulting. When I was a communist, I may have been young and stupid, but at least I didn't try to hide my beliefs behind this nauseating veneer of "neutrality." Adam 06:50, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
User:172 wrote (above):
This is incorrect. I can email Jimbo and check for you, if you require.
Actually, civility is one of Wikipedia's two non-negotiable rules. -- Uncle Ed 16:42, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
As an interesting side-note to my intro edit, it appears that the only other instance of a hard-line Communist state existing in the Western Hemisphere was Grenada for two weeks in 1983. Kaldari 04:14, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Bruce, do you live in the U.S.? If not, you should note that almost EVERYONE from all perspectives here believe that Cuba is not a democracy (unless you live in Berkely...) CJK 18:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
This statement: "Cuba is a socialist republic, in which the Communist Party of Cuba is the sole legal political party. Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere that is not a democracy." Is accurate, brief, grammatical and to-the-point. It says what needs to be said, and no more. If people would only leave it alone we could all turn our attention to more important things. Adam 08:54, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
"...Is accurate, brief, grammatical and to-the-point. ...", though also POV. Can we discuss and collaborate on wording to bring neutrality to those sentences? BruceHallman 17:54, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry Bruce but you have been outvoted. PMA 18:16, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
PMA; Just because you claim a consensus, WP:CON, does not make a consensus. BruceHallman 18:41, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I looked at the definition of democracy linked in the passage about Cuba 'not' being a democracy, and I could not find anywhere in that language that would bar Cuba from being considered a representative democracy. It is a POV itself to speak of what is or isn't democracy, needless to say. The use of the term 'communist state' seems to find itself almost solely in the language of the U.S - not an encyclopedic view unless one views encyclodpedic information simply to have their own nation's chauvanist prejudices confirmed and reconfirmed. Bruce seems to make all of the relevant points about world consensus vs. american consensus. No countries called 'communist states' have called themselves such - this american label has more to do with mccarthyism than lucid political labels. Capone 10:31, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the expression "Communist state" ought to be removed from the opening section, since the term has no clear definition. The statement that Cuba is "a one-party state ruled by the Communist Party of Cuba" is clear and unambiguous and should be used instead. The statement that Cuba is not a democracy is also clear and unambiguous, and true. A democracy is a state in which the people have the right and the ability to choose their own government. This necessarily requires (a) regular free elections at which rival parties can run candidates, and (b) a political culture which allows public opposition to the government, through a free press and a right of free assembly etc. Cuba has none of these things. Adam 10:56, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, no, that's not really true. What happened was that the Soviets, on the recommendation of Guevara (a trusted lifelong Communist), decided to back Fidel and Raul, and told Blas Roca to subordinate himself and the old PCC cadres (a pretty rotten lot corrupted by years of backing Batista) to the Castros. In exchange the Castros agreed to toe the Soviet line and make Cuba an orthodox Soviet-style state, which it became and still is. Because Fidel has a beard and makes long speeches in Spanish he seems a bit more romantic than, say, Erich Honnecker, but there is really no difference. Adam 13:34, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
In response to Zleitzen above: the reason so many people are preoccupied with Cuba is that it is a uniquely symbolic country to both left and right in the US (not being an American I can perhaps see this more clearly). The American left has been in love with Fidel since the 60s, as the quintessential bearded romantic revolutionary who has successfully defied the Yanquis all these years. As the vision of socialism as a social system has faded, the most powerful remaining emotional force behind the American left is anti-Americanism (or anti-US imperialism to use their own vocabulary). So long as Fidel stands (or these days is propped up) as a symbol of anti-Americanism, the left will go on loving him, happily ignoring or denying (as we see here) the squalid realities of his tinpot despotism and the empoverishment of 11 million people. The American right, of course, correspondingly hate Fidel with a deep and visceral hatred, which is why they have gone on with the futile and stupid economic blockade all these years, despite the obvious fact that it has done more than anything else to keep Castro in power. (If there is anything more stupid than an American leftist, it is an American rightist. Despite all, I remain pro-American, but it is a struggle sometimes.) Adam 02:32, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Adam, I don't recognize much reality in your stereotyping of Americans. Thinking Americans of all stripes have good reason to be upset at the injustice of decades of embargo 'in our name' and upset at the not-so-well hidden agenda hoping to overthrow yet another country 'in our name'. More than a few Americans actually notice and object when the USA has abusive foreign policy. BruceHallman 03:03, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Since you are prize example of what I am talking about, of course you can't accept what I am saying. You are typical of the American left in your inability to see this issue in anything other than these childish cliches. In the view of many "thinking Americans", getting rid of Castro would not be "overthrowing a country" - it would be liberating 11 million people from slavery. You of course disagree, but please don't insult our intelligence by pretending that all "thinking Americans" agree with you. There is a lot not to like about the Cuban-American lobby and the American right (I am, for the record, a social democrat), but they are correct on the essential point that Castro is an odious dictator who ought to be removed, one way or another, from power so that the Cuban people can choose their own government. It is also wrong to say they have a "hidden agenda" about overthrowing Castro - they are quite open about it, and so they should be. Adam 03:14, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
User:PMA recently wrote of an edit by User:Comandante "Sorry Mr Sockpuppet go somewhere else - no need for "soverign state" either". The editor Comandante is a well known editor in Cuba and name calling, "Mr. Sockpuppet", is a personal attack and should be avoided. Please be civil. BruceHallman 20:40, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
He was also pushing Marxist POV under the guise of NPOV in many articles - after many years of battle, I, like Adam and 172, have learned to be firm with such POV pushers - i have been called a German and/or Polish nationalist and a Greek and/or Turkish supporter in my efforts to battle the extremists of every colour. Like Adam and 172 i will not tolerate the pushing of POV wether it be right or left wing. PMA 20:55, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
How interesting to learn that Commandante lives in Cuba. If he has a computer and free access to the internet that makes him part of the privileged elite in Cuba - a country where after 47 years of the joys of socialism most people can barely feed themselves - and probably a Communist Party member. We can judge his edits accordingly. Adam 01:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Comrade Hallman said so above. Adam 13:02, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Bruce has been trying to ensure that the main views of Cuba are covered by the article. His reward has been to be continually attacked by some of those opposed to the Cuban Revolution. It does leave me wondering if Commandante is not the one with the right attitude, i.e. there is no way to avoid the Cuba pages being an ongoing battle between the two sides and the continual assertion of the anti Castroite POV is best opposed by its opposite rather than the evenhanded approach some of us have attempted. BTW Bruce was referring to the article not the island. MichaelW 17:40, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Have been informed that PMA blocked Michael W for the above exchange citing "The reason given for MichaelW's block is: "POV edits, article degradation, POV pushing, abuse of other editors, lack of good faith".-- Zleitzen 03:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Why is there a huge ugly white space on the main page now? CJK 01:46, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Never mind, I fixed it. CJK 01:49, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Can we move on and discuss the section on human rights, I'm thinking in terms of 172's statements here [16] and so propose reducing the section in keeping with other pages concerning countries with particular recent human rights issues, such as Turkey and Pakistan. There is already a human rights page so there is no need to encourage charges of systemic bias by over elaborating here.-- Zleitzen 23:09, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
What should go in an article, and at what length it should be treated, should be judged according to what think potential readers of the article are likely to be interested in reading. I agree that since there is already a Human rights in Cuba article (much improved of late, no thanks to the Communist Party of Wikipedia), the topic doesn't need to be extensively covered here. But this is not merely a feeder page to other articles, and some people won't read further than this page. Since one of the most important things about Cuba is that it is the only remaining dictatorship in the Anmericas, and one of the few remaining Communist Party-ruled states in the world, its human rights position must be discussed and at a reasonable length at the main Cuba article. Adam 03:36, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
For the record I'm not thinking in terms of reducing the content of the section. As Adam Carr effectively argues, Cuba's human rights position must be discussed and at a reasonable length. While standardization across articles is important, until the more extreme pro-Castro POV-pushers are out of the way, the question of whether or not a particular section should instead be a subsection is far from a high priority. Besides, the new section is very well written and helpful to readers. If a section is of sufficiently high quality, it's more reasonable to make an exception to the standardization. 172 | Talk 03:56, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
For the record, having put some more thought into the suject, I don't think standardization with other articles is at all of a concern with respect to the human rights section. Human rights sections have become more common over the past year. Last year, for example, I noted that the PRC did not have such a section. Now it does. 172 | Talk 05:12, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree. (By the way, does Zlietzen seriously suggest that either Britain's actions in Northern Ireland, or whatever it is that he thinks happened in Australia before 1972, are equivalent to a regime from which more than 1 million have been forced to emigrate, and which has imposed 47 years of dictatorship? If so, he is living in a moral universe I don't recognise.) Adam 06:30, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I will be charitable and attribute that comment to utter and total ignorance about Australian history rather than to <personal attack removed>. Adam 08:10, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
If Zleitzen or anyone wants to contribute to Human rights in Australia, they are welcome to do so and we can debate these issues there. But on this page we will not be distracted by the well-known communist diversionary tactic of playing bogus moral equivalence games. Of course there have been human rights violations in Australia, the UK, the US and all other democratic countries. We know this because those violations have been exposed, documented and in most cases redressed through action by civil society, the media, the judiciary and/or the political opposition in those countries, as is possible in a democracy. The reason you know (something) about the Stolen Generation issue in Australia, for example, is that the issue was exposed by civil society action within Australia. The situation in a country like Cuba is qualitatively as well as quantitatively different: there are not only more human rights violations, and worse violations, but they exist as a matter of deliberate government policy. Indeed the survival of a regime like Castro's requires human rights violations such as the denial of free elections, the suppression of civil society and the persecution of dissidents. That is why this article requires a section on human rights in Cuba, which states the facts about the situation in Cuba. Adam 10:31, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Do you really take the view that "there can be no moral or ethical hierarchy between two sides in a conflict, nor in the actions or tactics of the two sides"? Do you apply that maxim to World War II? Do you argue that there no was "moral hierarchy" between the Nazis and the Allies? If so, no doubt you would have enjoyed living in a Nazi-ruled world (unless Zleitzen is a Jewish surname of course - one of the reason Jewish intellectuals generally reject moral equivalence is that they understand better than most the real-world consequences of moral choices in politics). By taking this position, you convict yourself of moral bankruptcy out of your own mouth. I believe in moral hierarchies. I believe that democracy is morally superior, not just preferable in a utilitarian sense, to dictatorship. Adam 11:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I said "robust", not "cheap". I was making a serious point about moral choices in politics, to which you have not responded. Adam 11:51, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I thought you might at least have the courage to follow the logic of your position to its conclusion (that was no moral difference between the Nazis and their enemies), but I over-estimated you. Adam 12:17, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
If it wasn't for me this article would still be the pack of lies it was before I was invited to come and look at it, a state of affairs you were evidently quite happy with. So spare me your pious crap. Adam 13:57, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I fail to see why mention of Cuba being a dictatorship is POV in any way, shape or form. The human rights abuses are an explicit result of governmental policies; disregarding it would be like disregarding how the Rwandan Genocide was meticulously planned and instigated by a small group of people. Just because human rights abuses have had other causes does not make it irrelevant. -- Bletch 14:44, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Cool down the heat please gentlemen. BruceHallman 17:07, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Zleitzen, speaking from the standpoint of someone who was similarly trapped in a relativistic rhetorical corner when arguing with Adam Carr, my suggestion is get out of that corner. Adam Carr is a skilled debater. A couple of years ago, he battled me when I was giving credence to the idea that Kim Jong-il might be interested in de-Stalinization because he had appeared in a few good photo-ops with Kim Dae-jung and Madeline Albright. Several years later, the position I was trapped into representing then looks even more ridiculously naive with hindsight. Now, do you have specific objections to you have to any of the content in the new human rights section? Do you have specific recommendations about adding any content to the section? Or is you criticism of Adam Carr's rewrite entirely political?
172 |
Talk
17:49, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
If the task at hand is to write an article that meets
WP:V and
WP:NPOV my opinion is that debate skills can harm more than help. That is, unless, you are such a skilled debater that you can debate all of the POVs. I haven't seen yet that Adam has that skill. Though I suspect that he could debate the various POVs if he wanted to do so.
BruceHallman
19:35, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I am just curious about the appearance of conflict of interest, where administrator PMA (who holds one POV) blocks editor MichaelW (who holds the opposite POV). I am willing to give the benifit of the doubt, but the appearance seems wrong. Could we discuss:
Thanks in advance, I am looking forward to constructive and civil answers and discussion. BruceHallman 14:59, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Please look at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Richardchilton for why i have such a poor view of Marxist POV contributors to the 'pedia - i have given them many chances as my remark about the editor now known as Ruy Lopez on that page proves - also i have been here for many years and have been an admin for three - i am not some cluless newbie who petulantly blocks people. For what it's worth i unblocked MichaelW when told of my mistake by the Powers That Be. PMA 15:27, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
His open advocation of pushing a Marxist POV on thispage - also see his own talk page for his use of phrases such as "capitalist fanboys" - as i said with my experience of people like Richardchilton and his sockpuppets and cohorts i am wary of lefist POV pushers - ditto for right wing POV pushers when it comes to the crimes and death squads of right wing governments of Africa, Asia and the Americas - i try to protect articles from both "The Communist Peoples Party" on one side and "The National Salvation Front" on the other as someone put it on here some years ago.
As for your second question - i do not know the answer i am afraid. PMA 16:07, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
For what its worth PMA didn't unblock me. .pkg performed the honours, several hours after PMA claimed to have done so, released me from my cage, spilling over with pent up fury at having my inalienable rights to free speech curtailed by an Australian editor who saw fit to call me a lunatic because I quote some Bee Gees lyrics. Fortunately for you all I have run out of ranting time. I'll have to answer PMA's misrepresentations and spurious charges another time. Until then have fun...
MichaelW
23:30, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:MichaelW - that says just who unblocked you. PMA 00:10, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
If you keep accusing me of bad faith I'm going to start doubting my own reality. You may have thought you unblocked me, but you didn't. .pkg found two autoblocks still in place at 8.00 UT last night. Look to your competence not my honesty. MichaelW 06:52, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I came to look at my favorite article today! Low and behold the politics/human rights has been bumped up before culture, economy, geography etc. And the intro states Cuba is not a democracy--in its own seperate line--. Cuba is not a -liberal- democracy. Really, people, please!
And then I checked out the human rights section! Out with the facts, in with the accusations. While the introducation is a little off-base, this section is insane!
"...in which the rights of the individual are subordinated to the interests of the state."
Looks like it was ripped right off a Miami dissadent site. Believe it or not America, some countries put society before the individual.
Young Poineers "coercing" people to join? Is this widespread, because I had no idea!
please register - anon comments indicate to many that you do not have the courage to stand behind your words. Also your words and phrasing indicate that you may be Commantante or a very close relation - in which case you have been banned and this will only reset the block. PMA 06:08, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
How pleasant this place now is! PMA, I noticed you reverted my edit on the grounds that I was not registered. I was under the impression that wikipedia promotes "anon" editing. -art 06:16, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm a *communist*?!! (: I can understand why communists might not be allowed to edit here, but no, I am not a communist!
Perhaps we could discuss how the human rights comment in question (that I maybe a little sharply cricisised) might not be compleatly sound, as it only shows one (individual before the group) point of view! I don't have much time, but I would love to help improve the article, --It had actually motivated me to travel to Cuba, and I hate to see it go down hill! -art 06:54, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
The most likely scenario is "after Castro, Castro"--i.e, Raul.
The sorts of coup-making generals that many in the US have in mind have probably been purged long ago. And while of course Raul does not have his brother's charisma, his availability as an obvious and "safe" successor will appeal to the party (and military) leaders as a way of avoiding "chaos" (i.e., anything that might threaten their power). After Raul though is another question. PMA 07:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Dear Administrator: May I go ahead and edit the crap out of the "human rights" section? Most of the stuff there is unquestionably from one distinct point of view (such as the individualist p.o.v.) or is unsourced allegations and innuendo! Perhaps I could look in the history to find a better incarnation? -art 07:26, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
LOOK! "the rights of the individual are subordinated to the interests of the state" --is this debatable? Of course? It is an individual rights VS group rights situation. Cubans have less individual rights, but they have more rights as a society! You wouldn't write "the rights of society(state?) are subordinated to the interests of the individual" in the USA article--but it is just as true! C'mmon! --and neither is a human rights argument!-- -art 07:47, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Look! "Cuban infrastructure has suffered greatly after almost five decades of communism regime. Before 1959, sugar production averaged some 7.5 million tons of sugar per year, produced in roughly 150 sugar cane mills. In 2005, more than 80 of those sugar mills had been dismantled by the regime. The rest of industrial facilities have suffered a similar fate."
The infrastructure section was once a factual description of the infrastructure, NOT a pseudo-historical rambling about how things were supposedly better 50 years ago but changed because of "communism" "the rest of industrial facilities have suffered" That can't even theoretically be correct! Ferchristsakes! Neztielz 08:19, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Has anybody else noticed that all the fighting is getting in the way of finding neutrality? BruceHallman 17:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
This may be asking a lot, but can we avoid arguing 'facts' and 'truth'? Instead can we focus of identifying and defining the various Points of View and then choosing the neutral point? Can our arguments be about the credibility of citations and not about our personal opinions? BruceHallman 17:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes that is a great idea! Lets take this phrase I have brought up: "...in which the rights of the individual are subordinated to the interests of the state." Now this is just from the typical American p.o.v. which states that a states individual rights superceed the rights of society as a whole. You could just as easily write in the U.S. article human rights section, "...in which the interests of society is subordinated to the decision of the individual." Do you all see how this can be interpreted MANY different ways?
Furthermore, most of this stuff is blatant lies, especially in the human rights section. In the infrastructure section, it only adresses accomplishments PRIOR to the revolution, and mistakes AFTER it. I don't think I need to describe how that is biased! -art 18:25, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
[ [22]].
I'm just curious so don't start flaming and throwing childish threats at me for this....
Just seems this section is very pro-american based on the reports after the bay of pigs and nothing else. I wonder if I'll get banned for this now. -- Scott Grayban 03:13, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
And this part in the human rights section, Another clause in the 1976 Cuban constitution states that anyone suspected of being prone to commit a crime in the future, as a preventive measure, can be sent to jail indefinitely., another POV is the American law has such a thing as well. Its called Civil Commitment which states the exact same thing. Googling for American Civil Commitment there are humdred of articles on this including the ACLU(American Civil Liberties Union) opposing this as well. It directly allows the US Government to imprison anyone that has commited a prior crime, and in some States no crime but based only on actions and statements, to be sent to jail indef. -- Scott Grayban 03:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the anecdotal example that you site is enough for you to claim that Americans who have committed crimes in the past can be arrested without charge and detained indefinitely(non-terrorism charges). That is simply not true, no matter how badly you want it to be.~~Kane 23 4 2006~~
I suggest you go and edit at Human rights in the United States. The fact that human rights are also violated in other countries is not an argument you can deploy in defence of Castro's violations of human rights. Of course human rights are violated in other countries (although few are as bad as Cuba), but that is irrelevant to this article. Adam 06:26, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
None of which has anything at all to do with what I just said. Adam 06:55, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Adam 07:33, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
What is it in your background that I am supposed to be so scared of? That you're German? Ja, ist das sehr erschreckend, but I've argued with Germans before and lived to tell the tale. (by the way, please go and read apostrophe, so I don't have to read atrocities like "War is the sum of all evil's" and "humanitarian actions sending out Doctor's to other countries" any more. Danke) Adam 09:37, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I take it none of your citations were for debating. Adam 09:57, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Reading this [25] article is very informative. I should read this along time ago. However negative Adam want's this article to remain can be disputed again because in the article Essential Background: Overview of human rights issues in Cuba (Human Rights Watch, 31-12-2005) I see some positive things that are not even mentioned here. For instance in the section on that website article, Freedom of Assembly, is says that...
Yet this is not even mentioned at all here. Negativity does sell but we shouldn't we also state what is good in order to keep a NPOV article? Ladies in White (Damas de Blanco), a group of families of imprisoned dissidents, isn't even mentioned either. -- Scott Grayban 08:12, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Hmm reading the Cuban Constitution is interesting. Lots of double talk in it like Article 54 of the Cuban Constitution and Article 62 conflict with each other. -- Scott Grayban 09:03, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
In response to Scott above. No-one has asserted that Cuba is a country like North Korea, where it is impossible for opposition to exist. There is a visible group of dissidents in Cuba, who are subject to various kinds of harassment and discrimination, and who are arrested if they get too assertive, but are not simply taken away and shot. So the fact that meetings of dissidents can sometimes be held does not contradict the basic points made both in this article and at greater length in Human rights in Cuba. It does not alter the fact that there is no free press, ne free trade unions, no guaranteed freedom of speech or assembly, no right of political organisation and above all no right to contest elections in opposition to the Communist Party. Adam 23:52, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Scott has been good enough to send me the following email, which I think constitutes "threatening behaviour." Obviously none of Scott's citations were for legal studies either. Adam 01:03, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
That's pretty weird. I think this should be taken to one of the arbitrators/clerks, or forwarded to a foundation member. Users get banned for making off-the-wall legal threats. 172 | Talk 01:25, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Well then, if this is legit, an indef block is in order. -- Cyde Weys 02:03, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Does "Medal of Honor" necessarily mean "Congressional Medal of Honor"? Are there not other medals of honor? Adam 02:56, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
How very interesting. Is there a register of Purple Heart recipients? Adam 03:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
FYI Scott has been banned indefinitely by James Forester for the threat. [27] Earlier I tried to get in touch with the arbcom clerks Snowspinner and Kelly Martin, but James beat them to it. 172 | Talk 03:35, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Scott also has an entertaining blog, with flying saucers! At Scott's blog I find the following statement about me:
I would remind Scott that accusing me of lying about my qualifications is seriously defamatory, unlike anything I have said about him. Luckily for Scott, I do not believe in suing people. Incidentally, Scott has never actually asked me about my qualifications. If he's really interested, I have a PhD in history from the University of Melbourne. Here is a library reference to my doctoral thesis. Adam 01:53, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Adam 01:48, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
This is the Cuba article talk page. All this back and forth about banning and unbanning is not on topic. Questioning whether another editor has a jewish surname is far, far off topic. All this discussion of "moral heirachy", "truth", "opinion of fact" is off topic.
It feels like a month since I have been asking for a discussion of the WP:NOPV and WP:V of the 'not a democracy' sentence.
I don't think that constructive, cooperative or collaborative discussion can begin until things cool down and we stop, or at least move, the fighting about opinions of truth elsewhere. BruceHallman 13:17, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
The opening paragraph is now concise, accurate and relevant, and has references for all contentious statements. If you don't want to have any more fights about this, all you need to do is accept that the paragraph represents the view of the majority of interested editors (especially now that Scott is taking a little wikibreak), and go and do something more constructive. Adam 13:49, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
PMA, I agree that the edit without discussion pattern on Cuba is a problem. Though, in the interest of fairness may I suggest that we move the disputed clause '...and is the only state in the western hemisphere that is not a multi-party democracy [4].' to a sandbox until after mediation? There is a POV dispute over that clause and it is schedule for mediation. To leave it in with a protected status seems unfair from the perspective of one POVs and not the other. BruceHallman 20:43, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Below is a sandbox for the Cuba Government section. All users can play in it and give it their best shot! -- Zleitzen 21:45, 24 April 2006 (UTC) User:Zleitzen/Cuba Government Sandbox
In Cuba education is free and mandatory. The current statistic of 96% comes from a biased source, the frist line of this source is a quote: "the choice is between capitalism and chaos". http://lanic.utexas.edu/la/cb/cuba/asce/cuba8/30smith.pdf
The current UN figure is 100% http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/cuba.html Grantplus 01:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Are we ready for a 1st round peer review yet? -- Scott Grayban 07:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Who are these "peers"? Some further comments:
Bletch, you have reinserted the statement "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy" in the first paragraph (again). This comes after a week of edit wars, blocks and bans over this issue. Please review talk page history and cite a source for this. For guidance I provided the encarta description of Cuban democracy, I'll repeat it here;
Democracy is very broad term that is not limited to particular political systems. Encarta recognise this and write accordingly, keeping to encylopedic standards. The communsist state argument was hammered out at length above. And personally I believe there is a problem of bias in relying on US military and government sources on these matters. Rather like relying on Fidel Castro's opinions of the US to inform the United States article. -- Zleitzen 12:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
It's a tricky business, Scott. But terms such as democracy, communist state and socialist cannot be used in "short hand" in an encyclopedia. Each term has to be used in the proper form. This is why other encyclopedias use particular language and terminology (see encarta above or encyclopedia britannica entries on Cuba etc). Bletch's statement contradicts that method. Although I may believe in passing that "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy", I am creating a short hand for the term that does not correspond with the true definition. Btw, I thought there was some consensus that the first paragraph wouldn't contain such political detail in any case? -- Zleitzen 13:21, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Another conflict arises from providing alternative POV's on this. ie. Cuba is a Socialist or Communist State depending on the person's view. By that rationale an article on (say) Ireland could carry the (albeit unlikely) statement "Ireland is a democratic or theocratic depending on the person's view". That is a poor example, but do you see the problems here? Who has this different view? -- Zleitzen 13:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Scott Grayban 13:37, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Cuba is a Socialist Republic (as in UK is a constitutional monarchy), in which the Communist Party of Cuba is the sole legal political party. That I believe is the correct entry and corresponds with the terminology of other encyclopedias etc. Although the Bletch edit I query here was "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy". -- Zleitzen 13:44, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Adam, Why don't you stop the reverting for a bit and talk here and lets hammer out the issue of "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy." and be done with it now. Or does the need of another block in order before we can get this worked out in the talk? -- Scott Grayban 13:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
"Cuba is a Socialist Republic , in which the Communist Party of Cuba is the sole legal political party." isn't correct either. The Communist Party of Cuba is not the sole political party. They do allow other's to participate. However The Communist Party of Cuba does hold the majority of the political seats which does make them the ruling party. -- Scott Grayban 13:50, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually it is the sole legal political party. Some self-proclaimed political parties claim to operate, but they are not recognized by the constitution. Those who run for office, however, do not have to be a member of any political party. On another note, this statement "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy.", is an obvious POV and not a fact so it should be permanently removed. The rest of the article is political enough. Comandante 13:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
The communist party is the only legal political party in cuba, according to the Cuban constitution and all other sources including US Government. [1] -- Zleitzen 14:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Encyclopedia Britannica [2] alongside the above mentioned legally binding Cuban Constitution -- Zleitzen 14:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
You can play word games with the term "democracy", but in the end if you have a party with a monopoly on political activity and other parties or forms of opposition cannot play a serious role, then the country in question is not a democracy. -- Bletch 14:45, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I didn't realise you were asking for a source to go within the article itself. Why not use the Cuban Constitution and keep the earlier phrase?-- Zleitzen 15:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
No problem, Scott. Regardless, the Cuban constitution is the best possible source for this legal matter, and it's linked within the article. (Or it was the last time I looked!)-- Zleitzen 16:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Scott, I am curious about the source of the "Can't use Encyclopedia Britannica as a source because the user is required to buy a subscription to see the entire article." rule. Commonly that information is available for free in public libraries who share there subscription of the online Encyclopedia Britanica to the public for free. Indeed, many people can only afford to access Wikipedia from public libraries (because they cannot afford computers and cannot afford to pay for a dedicated personal internet connection). Or, when I cannot afford to pay the subscription fee for a print magazine (or buy a book), I go to the public library to read their copy for free. BruceHallman 15:43, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok now I am getting tired of this. The next revert done without talking on the talk page and getting this worked out will not only find themselves blocked for a long time. There will be no more reverts by anyone unless there is vandalism period. Everyone is violating the WP:3RR here. Comandante is looking for such a ban. -- Scott Grayban 14:03, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I just stated my reason for deleting that POV statement and now your threatening to ban me. That's typical. I wonder why you haven't threatened to ban Bletch who keeps on sneaking his bias into the article? Comandante 14:11, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Scott discussed a ban concerning Adam's revert above, Commandante. I see no bias here. -- Zleitzen 14:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I have told him to stop as well. I'll do it again too Bletch if you revert or change this article in any manner other then to remove vandalism I'll have you blocked from here. This WP:3RR blantant violation will stop one way or another. -- Scott Grayban 14:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Bletch just reverted the article. Comandante 14:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
You need to accept that the days of communist rule over this article are over. Adam 14:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
You need to accept that Cuba is a sovereign, Socialist state, and that at the end of the day, there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. Comandante 14:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
So are you guys going to do anything about Bletch? Or are you going to sit around and hope that i revert him so you can block me as well? Comandante 14:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I just issued the last WP:3RR warning for Adam, Comandante, and Bletch. And i'll post it here as well so that everyone can see it and can't claim I'm being biased here.
Since you are an active participant in this
Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert a single page more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the effect of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you.
In the section above Bletch wrote: "the question was whether it is a democracy or not." Yes indeed, and repeatedly I have been trying to engage you, Bletch, in a discussion of just this question, though I get a clear impression that you evade our efforts to engage in a discussion of this question. Re-read the message archives and you will see many questions directed to you about this issue which you did not answer. Restating a couple key questions: Please cite a reference that democracy is required to have parties, and if yes, how many parties? In other words, how correct is your assertion that a one party democracy not a democracy? You have not demonstrated that your assertion is not original research. Also, I grant that many people share your POV that democracy in Cuba is very disfunctional. Still, why is a bad democracy not a type of democracy? You *repeatedly* revert your POV sentence that Cuba is not a democracy, and your POV to be accurate perhaps should say that Cuba has a bad democracy. BruceHallman 15:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Scott, I can read Encyclopedia Britannica, including both the paper and the online version, for free in my local public library. BruceHallman 20:03, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm using other encyclopaedias as examples of method within a talk page, not as sources for the article, Scott.-- Zleitzen 16:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I can't read the whole thing either. I'm just giving examples of how encyclopedic standards are applied. -- Zleitzen 16:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Zleitzen and Sgrayban, you guys can drop the argument about Britannica. Zleitzen is free to cite it because Wikipedia editors have always been free to cite books and non-free access websites. At the same time, Zleitzen's citation of Britannica is irrelvant for reasons I stated above. 172 | Talk 16:33, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Ummm, 172 Right now I'm trying to get a vote on something different here and would like to get just one thing agreed on so we can move on. 3 disputes right now and all I'm looking for is one to get resolved and we are close to it. -- Scott Grayban 16:38, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your editing efforts I can see that you spent a lot of time and thought which I appreciate. Though regretfully, what you wrote includes too much point of view and too little citation and too much original research. So, I must add a neutrality dispute box to the section. Perhaps it would make sense to move it to a sandbox to hash out the differences? I am not arguing that the previous Human Rights section is better or should be reverted as it had many problems too.
There is so much in your section that quickly listing all the specifics of my dispute is not possible. However, starting with the first sentence, you wrote "...the rights of the individual..." as if we all agree what the rights of the individual should be. In reality your concept is ethnocentric, similar to the systemic bias problem that pervades Wikipedia. In the second sentence you write of "the states political aims" as if there is no validity to the concept of ".socialist state of workers, organized with all and for the good of all... " Again, ethnocentric, you are bringing a Free Market capitalistic value belief system towards the forming the basis of your condemnation of a social system that deliberately eschews capitalism.
Can we at least agree that the context of their human rights falls within the context of a socialist society, and that applying capitalistic values on that system is a logical falacy? BruceHallman 16:12, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
...you are bringing a Free Market capitalistic value belief system towards the forming the basis of your condemnation of a social system that deliberately eschews capitalism. BruceHallman, you're way off. Virtually the entire section can be referenced by citing the Cuban constitution itself. Cuba is a one-party state in which the state is constitutionally subordinate to the Communist Party, and the government restricts freedom of speech, association, assembly, press, and movement outside the control of the party. Adam Carr's section elaborates on this fact in a straightforward and factual manner. 172 | Talk 16:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I would like a vote posted in this section and please only sign with a support or oppose. No need for anything else to be posted.
The vote is for the use of "Cuba is a Socialist Republic , where other political parties are allowed to participate but the Communist Party of Cuba has the majority of seat's and vote's." for the article.
Support -- Scott Grayban 16:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC) Support BruceHallman 20:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I am going to ignore this poll. I encourage other users to ignore it as well. Adam Carr has already expended enough energy settling this matter. This matter no longer needs to be discussed. 172 | Talk 16:49, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Hello all -- I am here as part of the medcabal to help us come to a solution to part of the article conflict.
I am somewhat familiar with the kind of dispute that is going on. However, the talk page here is huge, and before joining in I wanted to check to see if people wanted me here. Please let me know what the consensus is, i.e., do you want a third party to come in and help out, or are discussions moving along well without me? [4] If the former, what is the main locus of the dispute?
Sdedeo ( tips) 20:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, thanks. Is there a particular point in the article where people are battling? Can you maybe provide a diff? In the end we will need to include all POVs, of course, following WP:NPOV (which also means that superminority POVs are given less weight and prominence.) Perhaps putting in some sources and in general sourcing POVs (e.g., "According to Amnesty International..." "According to the US State Department..." "According to the Cuban government...") will help resolve things? Sdedeo ( tips) 20:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure we can find sources to discuss what to call Cuba's political system. Can you provide sources that state that Cuba is a democracy? And sources that dispute that? Sdedeo ( tips) 20:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, now we need some folks to weigh in with sources that declare Cuba is not a democracy. Sdedeo ( tips) 21:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone spot the out-country-out? Adam 01:24, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Anyone realize this yet or not that there are only 3 words that is making this article POV ? Communist, Socialist, and Democracy. The same 3 words that comminusts and socialist use in there anti-american propaganda and the same 3 words used in American propaganda. Have we not learned anything at all? Adam is bent on labeling Cuba as a communist state just like the US. Government does. Cuba use the samething in order to provoke hate towards the US. See anything wrong at all ? No one will be happy until 1 is dead and the other wins. Samething for the opposite countries. -- Scott Grayban 02:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I am going to repeat this question: we need some folks to weigh in with sources that declare Cuba is not a democracy.
Just to be explicit, we need external sources: e.g., Amnesty International? Some other human rights group? Another government?
We can't proceed without this.
Sdedeo ( tips) 05:05, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Above links found with Google search using the term Cuba is not a democracy -- Scott Grayban 20:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Hee hee. Great. Some of these are not the best (e.g., the NIH one!) but this is an excellent place to start. Adam, since you are the strongest opponent of the use of the word "democracy", do you have any links to add?
I see the structure of the para going something like "The Cuban constitution establishes, at least in principle, a state that has the main features of a democracy. However, numerous sources dispute the idea that Cuba is a democracy in any real sense. Source X says. Source Y says. Source Z says."
Sdedeo ( tips) 20:25, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Columbia University is one of the leaders of research of Governments and even in there research I find..
On October 19, 1998 voting by secret ballot yielded 515 municipal delegates. The national assembly is also fully democratic but nominations are carried out by mass organizations and citizens committees. 1.6 million people were consulted by the citizens committee and 60,000 were put forward on the first electoral list. Cuba uses computers to allow review of the candidates and their records, including Fidel Castro himself who received 98% of the vote in the last election. Another sign of the popularity of socialism, despite the hardships imposed by imperialism, is that no more than 10 percent of the ballots were spoiled, a protest that anti-Communist groups urged.
That clearly shows a "democracy" even if its weak. -- Scott Grayban 20:31, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
OK! Let's wait for Adam to weigh in here with his sources. It looks like we'll have a range of opinions: "Democracy... weak democracy... really very weak democracy... not in any sense a democracy", which we can then source to various groups and governments. Sdedeo ( tips) 20:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks very much both Bruce and Zleitzen -- I suggest we wait for Adam to weigh in now. Sdedeo ( tips) 00:56, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
The EU document seems to me to be an accurate description of the Cuban political system. Adam 01:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
That statement is not in dispute. The statement in dispute is the statement that Cuba is the only country in the Western Hemisphere which is not a democracy. The EU document makes it clear on my reading that Cuba cannot be called a democracy, because it is a one-party state in which no serious opposition to the regime is permitted. Are BruceHallman and Scott Grayban going to accept that proposition? If yes, then the dispute is over. If not, then we have not progressed. Adam 01:49, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I am absolutely "in denial" that Cuba is a democracy of any description. The basic prerequisites for democracy are (a) freedom of political organisation and (b) freedom of expression. Cuba has neither of these, and the Castro regime is making no moves to allow them to exist. Cuba is a dictatorship, plain and simple. The fact that the usual gaggle of "Pasters for Peace" and similar gullible idiots choose to deny this does not alter the fact. I could quote you reams of similar rubbish uttered by similar people about Hitler, Stalin, Franco, Mao and even Pol Pot. Adam 02:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
[11] That took 20 seconds. I'll give you a google lesson some time. Adam 02:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Adam. For the record (if other users can't access that article), Adam sourced an economist article Not always with us dated Sep 15th 2005 which states;
You said: "Quote me one article that clearly states "Cuba is the only country in the Western Hemisphere which is not a democracy" that is NOT Americian Government influenced and I'll concede." I quoted you a plain statement from a reputable and independent source, and now you are dodging and wriggling out of that commitment, as I knew you would. Why should I not conclude you are a common liar? Adam 03:28, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I repeat: you said: "Quote me one article that clearly states "Cuba is the only country in the Western Hemisphere which is not a democracy" that is NOT Americian Government influenced and I'll concede." I quoted you a plain statement from a reputable and independent source. Why will you not now keep your word and concede? Adam 03:56, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Could I propose that these issues of Cuban democracy/lack-of be contained in the main body of the article? Rather than in the brief opening paragraph. Does everyone agree on this? -- Zleitzen 03:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
No. Adam 03:28, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think there's too much to worry about. Adam provided a relevant source as requested. I guess he must be still grumpy about the cricket last year! ;-)-- Zleitzen 04:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Some opinions count for more than others. I'll take The Economist over you any day. Adam 13:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
This discussion has gone off the rails. Adam, you need to be more polite when dealing with other contributors. Sdedeo ( tips) 16:15, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Next comment restored from diff after being deleted by User:Adam_Carr without pointing a link to it as required I'm no Historian, Politician, Economist, Journalist, Academic, Wiki-scholar and giving my honest opinion the whole history of Cuba's communist politics on this page is grossly and undebatebly biased. Its style of language and tone is immaculetly vulgar and poorly constructed. I think the entire history of Cuba in the 20th central deserves a good clean up and dispute over its supposed neutrality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.23.247.222 ( talk • contribs)
Adam Carr deleted [13] out this talk page entry Revision as of 00:48, 16 April 2006 82.23.247.222 entitled 'An honest opinion' without giving any explanation as to his reason for the deletion. Although the comment which Adam deleted is blunt, it is not a personal attack and is rather a general criticism, so I am left to wonder about why Adam deleted the comment. Adam, please explain. BruceHallman 02:23, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Please do not remove messages from your talk page. Talk pages exist as a record of communication, and in any case, comments are available through the page history. You're welcome to archive your talk page, but be sure to provide a link to any deleted comments. Thanks.
If we are going to have a mediation here, we need to stay focused. Please everyone stop misbehaving; don't remove talk page posts for now (except to archive), and please leave the lecturing to me! I am sure we can resolve this problem very quickly; the next thing we need is some sources (see my post above.) Thanks, Sdedeo ( tips) 17:56, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I could not find specific discussion on this part of the text so I removed it because it is a point of view and not a fact that providing health care and education for a population is impossible. "Cuba’s economic dependence on the Soviet Union was deepened by Castro’s determination to build his vision of a socialist society in Cuba. This entailed the provision of free health care and education for the entire population – an ambition which has proved unaffordable even in many developed countries, let alone in a small country with very limited resources and restricted trade. Through the 1970s and ‘80s the Soviets were prepared to subsidise all this in exchange for the rather dubious strategic asset of an ally under the noses of the United States and the undoubted propaganda value of Castro’s considerable prestige in the developing world."
I would also defend changing Communist Cuba. Communism is a form of society without state, Cuba has a state and therefore should not be called such. Socialist Cuba would be more apropriate. I will cite sources on this matter soon.
Also, this is the first edit I make in wikipedia, I would like to apologize in advance for any mistakes I may have made. Chico 12:39, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
It will be useless for us contributors to argue about whether Cuba is "democratic" or not, because for one thing we contributors are never going to agree on a definition of "democracy". Having president freely elected by the people means one thing to a lot of Americans (yes, we elected Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton and Bush) and another thing to many other people (no, the electoral college elected him or Supreme Court appointed him). That argument will never settled.
What we MIGHT be able to agree on is what the differences have been over the last several decades between, say, the U.S. government and the Castro government. I think a table would be useful. We could list factors such as free press and free speech during the election period (US yes, Cuba no), must be a citizen of the country to run for office (US: yes, Cuba: er, when was the last election, 1959?); which leads to frequency of presidential elections (US every 4 years, Cuba: once per lifetime of president?).
These things are hard to see in a paragraph, because of word-wrapping. And there are many other differences and possibly some similarities in the form of government, both actual and "on paper".
The analysis above applies to whether Cuba is "Communist" or not; we will never be able to agree on a definition of "communism". Some emphasize its political aspects, others emphasize its economic aspects, still others speak of ideology.
It would be better to describe the politics, economy and culture of Cuba under Castro one aspect at a time. Take emigration, for example. Is it allowed, forbidden, or what? For those who choose to leave Cuba (even temporarily), may they travel as a family, or must some family members stay behind? If so, why? (as hostages to ensure return?) And if it's forbidden, is it a capital crime to leave the country without permission? Is the Navy authorized to sink boats with artillery fire on their way out of territorial waters?
After each aspect is listed and described as thoroughly, accurately and fairly as possible, I suggest we then turn our attention to commentary. Fans of Cuba will no doubt assert that the objectively listed factors prove (in their eyes) that Cuba is "democratic", "free", an excellent example of "socialism" (not "Communism"), etc. Opponents of the Castro regime will certainly use the same list to prove (in their eyes) that Cuba is "undemocratic", "totalitarian" and a typical example of "Communism".
But let's write the facts before the commentary, please. -- Uncle Ed 14:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Although I am an editor who is not a particular supporter of Castro, I still believe that this article should be incommensurable. Meaning that Cuban policies should not be overtly depicted in comparison to other models. To do this would set a precedent in wikipedia and open the article up to charges of systemic bias. Again I urge that editors read established, carefully worded, peer-reviewed encyclopedias to learn how to present Cuba in an encyclopedic fashion. -- Zleitzen 14:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
This discussion is going off the rails again; Ed's original suggestion ("show, don't tell") is I think the key to resolving conflicts here. It's important to remember that "democracy" is a very fuzzy concept (Ancient Greece: a democracy? Pre-civil War US? etc.) All we can do is describe what is happening in Cuba, and describe how others view these things. Sdedeo ( tips) 18:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
User:Sgrayban just added the POV box. Would you please describe the nature and details of the dispute so that we may negotiate an agreement to resolve the dispute? BruceHallman 15:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry people, but you are all flipping out and arguing with each other, and it is making it hard for me to mediate here.
We have a set of sources: Some of them (e.g., the Cuban constitution itself, the pastors for peace, which seems to be a non-negligible group) say Cuba is a democracy, some say it has democratic features but is not a full democracy (e.g., the State department, Columbia), some say it isn't a democracy (EU, Economist), some say it shouldn't be called anything but a dictatorship (Free Cuba group).
We are going to have to state all, or most, of these positions in the article.
Does anybody object to the rough sketch paragraph that looks like this: "The Cuban constitution establishes, at least in principle, a state that has the main features of a democracy. However, numerous sources dispute the idea that Cuba is a democracy in any real sense. Source X says. Source Y says. Source Z says."
Sdedeo ( tips) 16:12, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Just looking at the current version:
This actually seems rather OK to me, although we could use more of the sources that people have identified. Anyway, that's another possibility. Again, I'll just wait for Adam to weigh in on whether either of these versions are OK with him. (Actually, AFAICT, Adam isn't online and hasn't been editing for awhile.) Sdedeo ( tips) 17:47, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Please do not insult other editors, 172, and please try to assume good faith. Let's not derail things with an argument; can you let us know if you are OK with either of the two suggested paragraphs in this section. Sdedeo ( tips) 18:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Again, we are getting derailed. Please everyone try to stay focused. Since Adam and now 172 both seem to be the main opponents here, let's wait to see whether or not they are OK with the two paragraphs in this section. Sdedeo ( tips) 19:01, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
172, your incivility is interferring with us trying to come to a consensus here, please lay off. Can you please let us know if you are OK with either of the two paragraphs above, and will you please stop reverting, as I asked you to do below. If you and other editors cannot do this, I will request page protection. Sdedeo ( tips) 20:05, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
If you revert the page again, you will be in violation of WP:3RR, and judging from your block log you know what happens next. I have never advocated putting inaccurate information in the article. Sdedeo ( tips) 20:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Please stop reverting; we need to let the article develop and evolve. Please let me know if you wish to participate in the mediation or not. Sdedeo ( tips) 20:53, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, look, I hesitate to say anything since I feel like I might be adding fuel to the fire, but per Freedom House [14], and this is a direct quote regarding politcal rights: "Cubans cannot change their government through democratic means. Fidel Castro dominates the political system, having transformed the country into a one-party state with the Cuban Communist Party (PCC) controlling all governmental entities from the national to the local level. Communist structures were institutionalized by the 1976 constitution installed at the first congress of the PCC. The constitution provides for a National Assembly, which designates the Council of State. It is that body which in turn appoints the Council of Ministers in consultation with its president, who serves as head of state and chief of government. However, Castro is responsible for every appointment and controls every lever of power in Cuba in his various roles as president of the Council of Ministers, chairman of the Council of State, commander in chief of the Revolutionary Armed Forces (FAR), and first secretary of the PCC." That plainly states that semantics aside, Cuba is not a democracy. Freedom House is an independent NGO that has no ties the the U.S. Government that I am aware of, and I believe it is a credible source in this case. 24.107.121.69 23:48, 17 April 2006 (UTC)--
Everyone stop reverting now: we must allow the article to develop in the usual wiki fashion. I have undone the series of reversions that just occured. There is no way we will reach consensus unless we allow the article to evolve in the usual fashion. If you have a problem with a particular passage, edit it, modify it, whatever, but do not simply revert. Sdedeo ( tips) 18:53, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Would argue that Cuba is the most democratic country in the world. There are no free elections, no freedom of speech, and no other political parties. Unless anyone can prove that wrong, this will be the extent of my discussion. CJK 19:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
CJK, I think you just joined the discussion -- welcome. I am here as a mediator to make sure we can get an NPOV section on Cuba's political system and human rights record; our main goal right now is to accumulate sources which are sorely lacking. Please do not revert the page; the only way we will reach a conclusion here is if we allow the article to evolve from its present unsatisfactory state. Sdedeo ( tips) 20:08, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
This is a good idea -- thank you -- but first of all I'd like to establish if 172, Adam and (now) CJK are OK with the basic idea of sourcing claims and counterclaims about the nature of the Cuban political system. Sdedeo ( tips) 20:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
We are going to have to cite more than one source in order to resolve this conflict. Are you OK with that? Are there any sources in particular you object to? In general, avoiding wordiness is good, but sometimes on the wiki it's not possible. Sdedeo ( tips) 20:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that people disagree on how to describe the Cuban political system, and it is one of wikipedia's jobs to report that, and to source those things. We really do need to cite other sources.
You and others are reverting each other and flaming each other on the talk page: mediation is certaintly necessary. Do not waste my time: if you no longer wish to participate in the mediation, let me know now.
Sdedeo ( tips) 20:38, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Do you wish to participate in the mediation or not? Please give me a firm answer. Sdedeo ( tips) 20:47, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, you are refusing to participate in the mediation. Thanks for letting me know sooner rather than later. I will leave some final thoughts on the talk page, and close the mediation at the medcabal. Please feel free to make a new request to the medcabal. Sdedeo ( tips) 21:06, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
If some don't think the U.S. or any other western country is a democracy because the corporations throw around their money, then they should argue it out on that page. That arguement has no bearing on Cuba, and the blindingly obvious need not be sourced. If we need citation that Cuba is not a democracy, then maybe we need citation that Cuba is in Latin America and not Africa. CJK 20:49, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
172 has refused to participate in the mediation; since medcabal is totally informal, there's not much I can do. 172, feel free to request a new mediation from the cabal if you like, but be aware that you don't get to pick who you want the mediator to be.
Some final thoughts. Re: the article itself: the "Human Rights" section is abysmal by current wiki standards. There are no sources (zero!) provided, the presentation is extremely confused, and minor and major things are all mixed up. This section needs a real rewrite. Re: the "democracy" debate: I've made it clear what I think the "canonical" wiki solution should be.
Re: user behavior. I am amazed that both 172 and Adam -- users who have a huge number of edits and have a record of constructive contributions elsewhere on the wiki -- have behaved so poorly during this process. Both 172 and Adam have been rude and uncivil to other editors. There is no excuse for that, and it has materially impeded getting on with improving the article. Sgrayban, CJK and 172 (again) have been involved in a revert war, which is ridiculous.
I urge everyone to stop the incivility and rudeness right now, and I urge people who encounter it not to rise to the bait and to simply ignore (i.e., not respond) to this sort of thing. The latter suggestion here is just as important as the former: don't allow yourself to get wound up. I wish everyone the best, and I hope people can get back to the real business of creating an encyclopedia sooner rather than later. Sdedeo ( tips) 21:17, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, that's not the way the medcabal works in general -- it's hard enough getting any mediator, let alone one made to order. In the meantime, and I can say this now that I'm no longer involved, please don't thank me; you have wasted my time by participating in a mediation up until you didn't get the result you have been continually revert-warring back to.
I've seen behavior like yours before (you're the third one): first you participate in the mediation, although you dish out a good amount of rudeness and incivility all around. Then as we move towards a consensus, and you don't have much ground to stand on, you declare that the prose is inelegant. Finally, there's a coda where I go back and forth trying to get you to declare clearly whether or not you want to participate in the mediation -- that took a few rounds.
Sdedeo ( tips) 23:13, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I posted repeatedly that I was here as a mediator, titled sections with "medcabal", and explained in detail why I was here; you had ample time to declare that you resented or refused this. While you claim now that you were unaware that you were participating in a mediation, I find that rather hard to believe. I don't believe I wasted my time, I believe you wasted my time, and further that you are quite aware of it. That's the last I'll say on this matter; fortunately wikipedia is a large enough space that we don't have to encounter each other again. Sdedeo ( tips) 00:09, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to raise this to the next level in haste or unilaterally, but per the Dispute_resolution procedure, the next step would be to request arbitration. Are there other people in this group of editors who are willing to jointly request this matter be appealed to the Arbitration Committee? BruceHallman 21:31, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I support the request to move this dispute to the next level of the Dispute_resolution procedure. -- Zleitzen 22:11, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
This dispute is getting ridiculous. Its just between the vast majority who recognize that Cuba is undemocratic versus the tiny minority who say it might be. Due weight should be enforced and I'm sure the arbcom would agree (though given my past experience, I could very well be wrong). CJK 00:45, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but this the opposing side is generally over-represented on Wikipedia. CJK 23:27, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
The RFC didn't have a pointer to the discussion page, so I'm starting one. The text currently reads:
This seems accurate and NPOV to me. If someone says otherwise, please respond to this comment. -- FRCP11 01:14, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Chico 01:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi
FRCP11, I requested the Rfc. But have added the "pluralist" since then to make it less subjective. I believe that
OK, we disagree. I don't believe that the one notable thing about Cuba is that it's a Communist dictatorship on the US's doorstep. I believe the European Union when they catagorise Cuba as a Socialist Republic (see source). I also believe that the term "Communist state" originated in Western society from the fact that the vast majority of such states are or were run by Communist parties who hold a monopoly on political power. Therefore the label "Communist state" this should be discussed in those terms. -- Zleitzen 03:39, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
The current wording of that sentence is POV. It reflects a political attitude commonly heard in right wing circles of the USA which is not the appropriate neutral tone necessary in an encyclopedic article for a global audience. Don't misunderstand me, I am not arguing that your point of view is wrong, or that your point of view is not 'true' to you, just that it is not universally 'true', and that it is not neutral. BruceHallman 05:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
With minor revisions for style, I'm okay with the Hallman edit to include "widely criticized." I'm going to add a clause for human rights problems. -- FRCP11 15:03, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
One of the things both 172 and I have learned during our long experience at Wikipedia (partly through several long disputes with each other), is that when dealing with people who are determined to make an article conform to their ideological proconceptions, it is necessary to adopt robust tactics (within the law, but robust). Anyone who knows about the prolonged battle waged by me (and others) with the LaRouche cult at a series of articles will know (a) that these tactics are sometimes necessary, and (b) that they are effective - the LaRouchite "Herschelkrustofky" was eventually banned from Wikipedia.
I was asked to review this article, which I had not previously seen, because BruceHallman and Scott Greyban were running it as their own private Fidel Castro fan page. I think any impartial person reviewing the article as it was before my arrival and as it is now will see that it has been greatly improved, particularly the history and politics sections (other parts still need work). Bruce and Scott and their friends have resisted the reform of this article at every step, arguing for a straight-out pro-Castro position on the most elementary questions (such as whether Cuba is a democracy). I point out that they are doing the same thing at Human rights in Cuba and Elections in Cuba. I haven’t looked in detail at History of Cuba yet (it’s on my list), but I’ve no doubt the same is true there also.
I am naturally reluctant to accuse people I don't know of being Communists, but what other conclusion can I come to about such wilful denial of obvious facts? Of course I have my own POV - I am a social democrat who is opposed to oppressive regimes of all kinds, including Communists ones. The difference is that my POV requires me to tell the truth about Cuba, whereas theirs apparently requires them to defend blatant falsehoods. If they said “yes Cuba is a dictatorship of the proletariat and we support that,” I could at least respect the integrity of their view, even though rejecting it. But I cannot respect this dishonest insistence on promoting obvious falsehoods.
I am not opposed to any attempt at mediation of this matter, but I will not compromise on the essential question. Cuba is a communist dictatorship and must be described accurately, even if that precise phrase is not used. The statement that Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy is true, relevant and important, and should be in the opening paragraph. Adam 02:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry you find the truth insulting. When I was a communist, I may have been young and stupid, but at least I didn't try to hide my beliefs behind this nauseating veneer of "neutrality." Adam 06:50, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
User:172 wrote (above):
This is incorrect. I can email Jimbo and check for you, if you require.
Actually, civility is one of Wikipedia's two non-negotiable rules. -- Uncle Ed 16:42, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
As an interesting side-note to my intro edit, it appears that the only other instance of a hard-line Communist state existing in the Western Hemisphere was Grenada for two weeks in 1983. Kaldari 04:14, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Bruce, do you live in the U.S.? If not, you should note that almost EVERYONE from all perspectives here believe that Cuba is not a democracy (unless you live in Berkely...) CJK 18:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
This statement: "Cuba is a socialist republic, in which the Communist Party of Cuba is the sole legal political party. Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere that is not a democracy." Is accurate, brief, grammatical and to-the-point. It says what needs to be said, and no more. If people would only leave it alone we could all turn our attention to more important things. Adam 08:54, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
"...Is accurate, brief, grammatical and to-the-point. ...", though also POV. Can we discuss and collaborate on wording to bring neutrality to those sentences? BruceHallman 17:54, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry Bruce but you have been outvoted. PMA 18:16, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
PMA; Just because you claim a consensus, WP:CON, does not make a consensus. BruceHallman 18:41, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I looked at the definition of democracy linked in the passage about Cuba 'not' being a democracy, and I could not find anywhere in that language that would bar Cuba from being considered a representative democracy. It is a POV itself to speak of what is or isn't democracy, needless to say. The use of the term 'communist state' seems to find itself almost solely in the language of the U.S - not an encyclopedic view unless one views encyclodpedic information simply to have their own nation's chauvanist prejudices confirmed and reconfirmed. Bruce seems to make all of the relevant points about world consensus vs. american consensus. No countries called 'communist states' have called themselves such - this american label has more to do with mccarthyism than lucid political labels. Capone 10:31, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the expression "Communist state" ought to be removed from the opening section, since the term has no clear definition. The statement that Cuba is "a one-party state ruled by the Communist Party of Cuba" is clear and unambiguous and should be used instead. The statement that Cuba is not a democracy is also clear and unambiguous, and true. A democracy is a state in which the people have the right and the ability to choose their own government. This necessarily requires (a) regular free elections at which rival parties can run candidates, and (b) a political culture which allows public opposition to the government, through a free press and a right of free assembly etc. Cuba has none of these things. Adam 10:56, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, no, that's not really true. What happened was that the Soviets, on the recommendation of Guevara (a trusted lifelong Communist), decided to back Fidel and Raul, and told Blas Roca to subordinate himself and the old PCC cadres (a pretty rotten lot corrupted by years of backing Batista) to the Castros. In exchange the Castros agreed to toe the Soviet line and make Cuba an orthodox Soviet-style state, which it became and still is. Because Fidel has a beard and makes long speeches in Spanish he seems a bit more romantic than, say, Erich Honnecker, but there is really no difference. Adam 13:34, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
In response to Zleitzen above: the reason so many people are preoccupied with Cuba is that it is a uniquely symbolic country to both left and right in the US (not being an American I can perhaps see this more clearly). The American left has been in love with Fidel since the 60s, as the quintessential bearded romantic revolutionary who has successfully defied the Yanquis all these years. As the vision of socialism as a social system has faded, the most powerful remaining emotional force behind the American left is anti-Americanism (or anti-US imperialism to use their own vocabulary). So long as Fidel stands (or these days is propped up) as a symbol of anti-Americanism, the left will go on loving him, happily ignoring or denying (as we see here) the squalid realities of his tinpot despotism and the empoverishment of 11 million people. The American right, of course, correspondingly hate Fidel with a deep and visceral hatred, which is why they have gone on with the futile and stupid economic blockade all these years, despite the obvious fact that it has done more than anything else to keep Castro in power. (If there is anything more stupid than an American leftist, it is an American rightist. Despite all, I remain pro-American, but it is a struggle sometimes.) Adam 02:32, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Adam, I don't recognize much reality in your stereotyping of Americans. Thinking Americans of all stripes have good reason to be upset at the injustice of decades of embargo 'in our name' and upset at the not-so-well hidden agenda hoping to overthrow yet another country 'in our name'. More than a few Americans actually notice and object when the USA has abusive foreign policy. BruceHallman 03:03, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Since you are prize example of what I am talking about, of course you can't accept what I am saying. You are typical of the American left in your inability to see this issue in anything other than these childish cliches. In the view of many "thinking Americans", getting rid of Castro would not be "overthrowing a country" - it would be liberating 11 million people from slavery. You of course disagree, but please don't insult our intelligence by pretending that all "thinking Americans" agree with you. There is a lot not to like about the Cuban-American lobby and the American right (I am, for the record, a social democrat), but they are correct on the essential point that Castro is an odious dictator who ought to be removed, one way or another, from power so that the Cuban people can choose their own government. It is also wrong to say they have a "hidden agenda" about overthrowing Castro - they are quite open about it, and so they should be. Adam 03:14, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
User:PMA recently wrote of an edit by User:Comandante "Sorry Mr Sockpuppet go somewhere else - no need for "soverign state" either". The editor Comandante is a well known editor in Cuba and name calling, "Mr. Sockpuppet", is a personal attack and should be avoided. Please be civil. BruceHallman 20:40, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
He was also pushing Marxist POV under the guise of NPOV in many articles - after many years of battle, I, like Adam and 172, have learned to be firm with such POV pushers - i have been called a German and/or Polish nationalist and a Greek and/or Turkish supporter in my efforts to battle the extremists of every colour. Like Adam and 172 i will not tolerate the pushing of POV wether it be right or left wing. PMA 20:55, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
How interesting to learn that Commandante lives in Cuba. If he has a computer and free access to the internet that makes him part of the privileged elite in Cuba - a country where after 47 years of the joys of socialism most people can barely feed themselves - and probably a Communist Party member. We can judge his edits accordingly. Adam 01:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Comrade Hallman said so above. Adam 13:02, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Bruce has been trying to ensure that the main views of Cuba are covered by the article. His reward has been to be continually attacked by some of those opposed to the Cuban Revolution. It does leave me wondering if Commandante is not the one with the right attitude, i.e. there is no way to avoid the Cuba pages being an ongoing battle between the two sides and the continual assertion of the anti Castroite POV is best opposed by its opposite rather than the evenhanded approach some of us have attempted. BTW Bruce was referring to the article not the island. MichaelW 17:40, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Have been informed that PMA blocked Michael W for the above exchange citing "The reason given for MichaelW's block is: "POV edits, article degradation, POV pushing, abuse of other editors, lack of good faith".-- Zleitzen 03:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Why is there a huge ugly white space on the main page now? CJK 01:46, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Never mind, I fixed it. CJK 01:49, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Can we move on and discuss the section on human rights, I'm thinking in terms of 172's statements here [16] and so propose reducing the section in keeping with other pages concerning countries with particular recent human rights issues, such as Turkey and Pakistan. There is already a human rights page so there is no need to encourage charges of systemic bias by over elaborating here.-- Zleitzen 23:09, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
What should go in an article, and at what length it should be treated, should be judged according to what think potential readers of the article are likely to be interested in reading. I agree that since there is already a Human rights in Cuba article (much improved of late, no thanks to the Communist Party of Wikipedia), the topic doesn't need to be extensively covered here. But this is not merely a feeder page to other articles, and some people won't read further than this page. Since one of the most important things about Cuba is that it is the only remaining dictatorship in the Anmericas, and one of the few remaining Communist Party-ruled states in the world, its human rights position must be discussed and at a reasonable length at the main Cuba article. Adam 03:36, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
For the record I'm not thinking in terms of reducing the content of the section. As Adam Carr effectively argues, Cuba's human rights position must be discussed and at a reasonable length. While standardization across articles is important, until the more extreme pro-Castro POV-pushers are out of the way, the question of whether or not a particular section should instead be a subsection is far from a high priority. Besides, the new section is very well written and helpful to readers. If a section is of sufficiently high quality, it's more reasonable to make an exception to the standardization. 172 | Talk 03:56, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
For the record, having put some more thought into the suject, I don't think standardization with other articles is at all of a concern with respect to the human rights section. Human rights sections have become more common over the past year. Last year, for example, I noted that the PRC did not have such a section. Now it does. 172 | Talk 05:12, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree. (By the way, does Zlietzen seriously suggest that either Britain's actions in Northern Ireland, or whatever it is that he thinks happened in Australia before 1972, are equivalent to a regime from which more than 1 million have been forced to emigrate, and which has imposed 47 years of dictatorship? If so, he is living in a moral universe I don't recognise.) Adam 06:30, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I will be charitable and attribute that comment to utter and total ignorance about Australian history rather than to <personal attack removed>. Adam 08:10, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
If Zleitzen or anyone wants to contribute to Human rights in Australia, they are welcome to do so and we can debate these issues there. But on this page we will not be distracted by the well-known communist diversionary tactic of playing bogus moral equivalence games. Of course there have been human rights violations in Australia, the UK, the US and all other democratic countries. We know this because those violations have been exposed, documented and in most cases redressed through action by civil society, the media, the judiciary and/or the political opposition in those countries, as is possible in a democracy. The reason you know (something) about the Stolen Generation issue in Australia, for example, is that the issue was exposed by civil society action within Australia. The situation in a country like Cuba is qualitatively as well as quantitatively different: there are not only more human rights violations, and worse violations, but they exist as a matter of deliberate government policy. Indeed the survival of a regime like Castro's requires human rights violations such as the denial of free elections, the suppression of civil society and the persecution of dissidents. That is why this article requires a section on human rights in Cuba, which states the facts about the situation in Cuba. Adam 10:31, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Do you really take the view that "there can be no moral or ethical hierarchy between two sides in a conflict, nor in the actions or tactics of the two sides"? Do you apply that maxim to World War II? Do you argue that there no was "moral hierarchy" between the Nazis and the Allies? If so, no doubt you would have enjoyed living in a Nazi-ruled world (unless Zleitzen is a Jewish surname of course - one of the reason Jewish intellectuals generally reject moral equivalence is that they understand better than most the real-world consequences of moral choices in politics). By taking this position, you convict yourself of moral bankruptcy out of your own mouth. I believe in moral hierarchies. I believe that democracy is morally superior, not just preferable in a utilitarian sense, to dictatorship. Adam 11:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I said "robust", not "cheap". I was making a serious point about moral choices in politics, to which you have not responded. Adam 11:51, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I thought you might at least have the courage to follow the logic of your position to its conclusion (that was no moral difference between the Nazis and their enemies), but I over-estimated you. Adam 12:17, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
If it wasn't for me this article would still be the pack of lies it was before I was invited to come and look at it, a state of affairs you were evidently quite happy with. So spare me your pious crap. Adam 13:57, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I fail to see why mention of Cuba being a dictatorship is POV in any way, shape or form. The human rights abuses are an explicit result of governmental policies; disregarding it would be like disregarding how the Rwandan Genocide was meticulously planned and instigated by a small group of people. Just because human rights abuses have had other causes does not make it irrelevant. -- Bletch 14:44, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Cool down the heat please gentlemen. BruceHallman 17:07, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Zleitzen, speaking from the standpoint of someone who was similarly trapped in a relativistic rhetorical corner when arguing with Adam Carr, my suggestion is get out of that corner. Adam Carr is a skilled debater. A couple of years ago, he battled me when I was giving credence to the idea that Kim Jong-il might be interested in de-Stalinization because he had appeared in a few good photo-ops with Kim Dae-jung and Madeline Albright. Several years later, the position I was trapped into representing then looks even more ridiculously naive with hindsight. Now, do you have specific objections to you have to any of the content in the new human rights section? Do you have specific recommendations about adding any content to the section? Or is you criticism of Adam Carr's rewrite entirely political?
172 |
Talk
17:49, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
If the task at hand is to write an article that meets
WP:V and
WP:NPOV my opinion is that debate skills can harm more than help. That is, unless, you are such a skilled debater that you can debate all of the POVs. I haven't seen yet that Adam has that skill. Though I suspect that he could debate the various POVs if he wanted to do so.
BruceHallman
19:35, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I am just curious about the appearance of conflict of interest, where administrator PMA (who holds one POV) blocks editor MichaelW (who holds the opposite POV). I am willing to give the benifit of the doubt, but the appearance seems wrong. Could we discuss:
Thanks in advance, I am looking forward to constructive and civil answers and discussion. BruceHallman 14:59, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Please look at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Richardchilton for why i have such a poor view of Marxist POV contributors to the 'pedia - i have given them many chances as my remark about the editor now known as Ruy Lopez on that page proves - also i have been here for many years and have been an admin for three - i am not some cluless newbie who petulantly blocks people. For what it's worth i unblocked MichaelW when told of my mistake by the Powers That Be. PMA 15:27, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
His open advocation of pushing a Marxist POV on thispage - also see his own talk page for his use of phrases such as "capitalist fanboys" - as i said with my experience of people like Richardchilton and his sockpuppets and cohorts i am wary of lefist POV pushers - ditto for right wing POV pushers when it comes to the crimes and death squads of right wing governments of Africa, Asia and the Americas - i try to protect articles from both "The Communist Peoples Party" on one side and "The National Salvation Front" on the other as someone put it on here some years ago.
As for your second question - i do not know the answer i am afraid. PMA 16:07, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
For what its worth PMA didn't unblock me. .pkg performed the honours, several hours after PMA claimed to have done so, released me from my cage, spilling over with pent up fury at having my inalienable rights to free speech curtailed by an Australian editor who saw fit to call me a lunatic because I quote some Bee Gees lyrics. Fortunately for you all I have run out of ranting time. I'll have to answer PMA's misrepresentations and spurious charges another time. Until then have fun...
MichaelW
23:30, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:MichaelW - that says just who unblocked you. PMA 00:10, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
If you keep accusing me of bad faith I'm going to start doubting my own reality. You may have thought you unblocked me, but you didn't. .pkg found two autoblocks still in place at 8.00 UT last night. Look to your competence not my honesty. MichaelW 06:52, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I came to look at my favorite article today! Low and behold the politics/human rights has been bumped up before culture, economy, geography etc. And the intro states Cuba is not a democracy--in its own seperate line--. Cuba is not a -liberal- democracy. Really, people, please!
And then I checked out the human rights section! Out with the facts, in with the accusations. While the introducation is a little off-base, this section is insane!
"...in which the rights of the individual are subordinated to the interests of the state."
Looks like it was ripped right off a Miami dissadent site. Believe it or not America, some countries put society before the individual.
Young Poineers "coercing" people to join? Is this widespread, because I had no idea!
please register - anon comments indicate to many that you do not have the courage to stand behind your words. Also your words and phrasing indicate that you may be Commantante or a very close relation - in which case you have been banned and this will only reset the block. PMA 06:08, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
How pleasant this place now is! PMA, I noticed you reverted my edit on the grounds that I was not registered. I was under the impression that wikipedia promotes "anon" editing. -art 06:16, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm a *communist*?!! (: I can understand why communists might not be allowed to edit here, but no, I am not a communist!
Perhaps we could discuss how the human rights comment in question (that I maybe a little sharply cricisised) might not be compleatly sound, as it only shows one (individual before the group) point of view! I don't have much time, but I would love to help improve the article, --It had actually motivated me to travel to Cuba, and I hate to see it go down hill! -art 06:54, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
The most likely scenario is "after Castro, Castro"--i.e, Raul.
The sorts of coup-making generals that many in the US have in mind have probably been purged long ago. And while of course Raul does not have his brother's charisma, his availability as an obvious and "safe" successor will appeal to the party (and military) leaders as a way of avoiding "chaos" (i.e., anything that might threaten their power). After Raul though is another question. PMA 07:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Dear Administrator: May I go ahead and edit the crap out of the "human rights" section? Most of the stuff there is unquestionably from one distinct point of view (such as the individualist p.o.v.) or is unsourced allegations and innuendo! Perhaps I could look in the history to find a better incarnation? -art 07:26, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
LOOK! "the rights of the individual are subordinated to the interests of the state" --is this debatable? Of course? It is an individual rights VS group rights situation. Cubans have less individual rights, but they have more rights as a society! You wouldn't write "the rights of society(state?) are subordinated to the interests of the individual" in the USA article--but it is just as true! C'mmon! --and neither is a human rights argument!-- -art 07:47, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Look! "Cuban infrastructure has suffered greatly after almost five decades of communism regime. Before 1959, sugar production averaged some 7.5 million tons of sugar per year, produced in roughly 150 sugar cane mills. In 2005, more than 80 of those sugar mills had been dismantled by the regime. The rest of industrial facilities have suffered a similar fate."
The infrastructure section was once a factual description of the infrastructure, NOT a pseudo-historical rambling about how things were supposedly better 50 years ago but changed because of "communism" "the rest of industrial facilities have suffered" That can't even theoretically be correct! Ferchristsakes! Neztielz 08:19, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Has anybody else noticed that all the fighting is getting in the way of finding neutrality? BruceHallman 17:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
This may be asking a lot, but can we avoid arguing 'facts' and 'truth'? Instead can we focus of identifying and defining the various Points of View and then choosing the neutral point? Can our arguments be about the credibility of citations and not about our personal opinions? BruceHallman 17:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes that is a great idea! Lets take this phrase I have brought up: "...in which the rights of the individual are subordinated to the interests of the state." Now this is just from the typical American p.o.v. which states that a states individual rights superceed the rights of society as a whole. You could just as easily write in the U.S. article human rights section, "...in which the interests of society is subordinated to the decision of the individual." Do you all see how this can be interpreted MANY different ways?
Furthermore, most of this stuff is blatant lies, especially in the human rights section. In the infrastructure section, it only adresses accomplishments PRIOR to the revolution, and mistakes AFTER it. I don't think I need to describe how that is biased! -art 18:25, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
[ [22]].
I'm just curious so don't start flaming and throwing childish threats at me for this....
Just seems this section is very pro-american based on the reports after the bay of pigs and nothing else. I wonder if I'll get banned for this now. -- Scott Grayban 03:13, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
And this part in the human rights section, Another clause in the 1976 Cuban constitution states that anyone suspected of being prone to commit a crime in the future, as a preventive measure, can be sent to jail indefinitely., another POV is the American law has such a thing as well. Its called Civil Commitment which states the exact same thing. Googling for American Civil Commitment there are humdred of articles on this including the ACLU(American Civil Liberties Union) opposing this as well. It directly allows the US Government to imprison anyone that has commited a prior crime, and in some States no crime but based only on actions and statements, to be sent to jail indef. -- Scott Grayban 03:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the anecdotal example that you site is enough for you to claim that Americans who have committed crimes in the past can be arrested without charge and detained indefinitely(non-terrorism charges). That is simply not true, no matter how badly you want it to be.~~Kane 23 4 2006~~
I suggest you go and edit at Human rights in the United States. The fact that human rights are also violated in other countries is not an argument you can deploy in defence of Castro's violations of human rights. Of course human rights are violated in other countries (although few are as bad as Cuba), but that is irrelevant to this article. Adam 06:26, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
None of which has anything at all to do with what I just said. Adam 06:55, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Adam 07:33, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
What is it in your background that I am supposed to be so scared of? That you're German? Ja, ist das sehr erschreckend, but I've argued with Germans before and lived to tell the tale. (by the way, please go and read apostrophe, so I don't have to read atrocities like "War is the sum of all evil's" and "humanitarian actions sending out Doctor's to other countries" any more. Danke) Adam 09:37, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I take it none of your citations were for debating. Adam 09:57, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Reading this [25] article is very informative. I should read this along time ago. However negative Adam want's this article to remain can be disputed again because in the article Essential Background: Overview of human rights issues in Cuba (Human Rights Watch, 31-12-2005) I see some positive things that are not even mentioned here. For instance in the section on that website article, Freedom of Assembly, is says that...
Yet this is not even mentioned at all here. Negativity does sell but we shouldn't we also state what is good in order to keep a NPOV article? Ladies in White (Damas de Blanco), a group of families of imprisoned dissidents, isn't even mentioned either. -- Scott Grayban 08:12, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Hmm reading the Cuban Constitution is interesting. Lots of double talk in it like Article 54 of the Cuban Constitution and Article 62 conflict with each other. -- Scott Grayban 09:03, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
In response to Scott above. No-one has asserted that Cuba is a country like North Korea, where it is impossible for opposition to exist. There is a visible group of dissidents in Cuba, who are subject to various kinds of harassment and discrimination, and who are arrested if they get too assertive, but are not simply taken away and shot. So the fact that meetings of dissidents can sometimes be held does not contradict the basic points made both in this article and at greater length in Human rights in Cuba. It does not alter the fact that there is no free press, ne free trade unions, no guaranteed freedom of speech or assembly, no right of political organisation and above all no right to contest elections in opposition to the Communist Party. Adam 23:52, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Scott has been good enough to send me the following email, which I think constitutes "threatening behaviour." Obviously none of Scott's citations were for legal studies either. Adam 01:03, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
That's pretty weird. I think this should be taken to one of the arbitrators/clerks, or forwarded to a foundation member. Users get banned for making off-the-wall legal threats. 172 | Talk 01:25, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Well then, if this is legit, an indef block is in order. -- Cyde Weys 02:03, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Does "Medal of Honor" necessarily mean "Congressional Medal of Honor"? Are there not other medals of honor? Adam 02:56, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
How very interesting. Is there a register of Purple Heart recipients? Adam 03:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
FYI Scott has been banned indefinitely by James Forester for the threat. [27] Earlier I tried to get in touch with the arbcom clerks Snowspinner and Kelly Martin, but James beat them to it. 172 | Talk 03:35, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Scott also has an entertaining blog, with flying saucers! At Scott's blog I find the following statement about me:
I would remind Scott that accusing me of lying about my qualifications is seriously defamatory, unlike anything I have said about him. Luckily for Scott, I do not believe in suing people. Incidentally, Scott has never actually asked me about my qualifications. If he's really interested, I have a PhD in history from the University of Melbourne. Here is a library reference to my doctoral thesis. Adam 01:53, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Adam 01:48, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
This is the Cuba article talk page. All this back and forth about banning and unbanning is not on topic. Questioning whether another editor has a jewish surname is far, far off topic. All this discussion of "moral heirachy", "truth", "opinion of fact" is off topic.
It feels like a month since I have been asking for a discussion of the WP:NOPV and WP:V of the 'not a democracy' sentence.
I don't think that constructive, cooperative or collaborative discussion can begin until things cool down and we stop, or at least move, the fighting about opinions of truth elsewhere. BruceHallman 13:17, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
The opening paragraph is now concise, accurate and relevant, and has references for all contentious statements. If you don't want to have any more fights about this, all you need to do is accept that the paragraph represents the view of the majority of interested editors (especially now that Scott is taking a little wikibreak), and go and do something more constructive. Adam 13:49, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
PMA, I agree that the edit without discussion pattern on Cuba is a problem. Though, in the interest of fairness may I suggest that we move the disputed clause '...and is the only state in the western hemisphere that is not a multi-party democracy [4].' to a sandbox until after mediation? There is a POV dispute over that clause and it is schedule for mediation. To leave it in with a protected status seems unfair from the perspective of one POVs and not the other. BruceHallman 20:43, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Below is a sandbox for the Cuba Government section. All users can play in it and give it their best shot! -- Zleitzen 21:45, 24 April 2006 (UTC) User:Zleitzen/Cuba Government Sandbox
In Cuba education is free and mandatory. The current statistic of 96% comes from a biased source, the frist line of this source is a quote: "the choice is between capitalism and chaos". http://lanic.utexas.edu/la/cb/cuba/asce/cuba8/30smith.pdf
The current UN figure is 100% http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/cuba.html Grantplus 01:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)