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Considering recent edits of material I wrote, I am trying to understand our group edit policy. When one encounters something written in the article that has a 'black' point of view, and you feel it should have a 'white' point of view, what is our policy? 1) Edit to be 'white'. 2) Edit it to be 'grey', even when you personally believe 'white' is true. 3) Edit it to include both 'white' and 'black'. Or, is there some other policy which I don't understand?
Considering that we are trying to collaborate on the editing of the same article which none of us own, I hope that we can come to an understanding of how to mutually edit items where one see's white and the other see's black.
Could you please explain your neutrality policy?
Me first. I believe we should try #2, and if it fails, try #3. #1 is to be avoided, but around here, #1 causes revert wars, which frankly appear uncivil. Does anybody really believe that achieving neutrality is possible by just having a quicker finger to click a revert? BruceHallman 13:37, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I wrote that Cuba is a one-party state ruled by the Communist Party and its leader Castro, that no other parties are permitted, and that therefore Cuba does not mean any meaninfgul definition of a democracy. I could "verify" these statements with a list of references as long as the Cuban Constitution. Do you really want me to? It seems to me that it is up to those who want to argue the contrary position to do the "verifying." If I write that the earth goes round the sun, a statement these days generally accepted to be true, it is up to those who want to argue that the sun goes round the earth to provide some evidence. Adam 14:08, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Michael, all persons not endorsed for a position by the Communist party cannot run. The Communist Party, which is not a democratic entity, not the people voting in elections, decides who holds political power - and Castro control the Communist party in Cuba. In order to be called a democracy, there must be some way for the people in general to express their beliefs - and more importantly, control who holds office. Yet, Cuba does not hold elections where individuals not endorced by the Communists can run, futhermore, political speech against the Communist party or the government is illegal. I am more than willing to use euphamisms (spelling) for the activities of the Communists, but to call it "democracy" bold faced lie that meets virtually no defintion of democracy.
The answers to your questions are (1) yes, (2) no. Adam 15:21, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Adam, many people would argue that the United States is a democracy in name only and not in practice (particularily in comparison to many political systems around the world), I wouldn't agree with reading that in the piece on the US. It would be a clear breach of POV. -- Zleitzen 16:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Demos - people, Craci - rule by. There must be an election in which the people can choose their representatives in order to be a democracy. That is the central detail. The US has this option - whether you like the outcome of said democracy or not. The Cubas do not - whether you like the outcome of their communist system or not. ()147.126.46.146
You could outlaw political parties entirely, so long as THE PEOPLE could pick their representatives - but if you prevent anyone not endorsed by a 1 organization than the people cannot choose a leader. In capitalist nations, incidentally, economic control is declined by the government and the people. The US could decide to run a command economy; there is currently nothing in our constitution to prevent it. The problem your people seem to have is that so few people are willing to vote in favor of such an economy and therefore government control is limited. Democratic process is the problem in Cuba, and it is entirely different from the whether or not you favor the result. I happen to like Chile post-Allende, but I would never deny that it was ruled by a dictator, whatever the democratic pretensions or however much I dislike Allende - extend the same courtesy to the Cubans and Castro. The Cuban people CANNOT vote for a person not ENDORSED by the Communist party - this prevents any view but that which is supported by the Communist party from being represented in government. ()
In discussing democracy in Cuba, it is important to look beyond elections. Yes, elections are generally a part of a democracy - and Cuba does have them; their efficacy in promoting democratic participation in government MUST be discussed. However, Cuba also has alternative democratic structures in place that are designed to allow people to participate in the functioning of government - workplace councils, mass organizations (ANAP, CTC), and others. Just like the elections, the efficacy of these organizations is entirely debatable. Certainly, they have some effect, as they give people a chance to comment on proposed legislation, etc. To what degree the input of 'the people' is incorporated into that legislation is another matter entirely. I am spending my wikipedia time on Cuba's agricultural sector right now, so I'm not going to work on the democracy in Cuba stuff at this point. I will certainly contribute at a later date. Interested persons should read "People's Power" by Peter Roman. It is a well-written, excellently researched book that delves into the processes of democracy in Cuba. **Consider, too, that a democratic government with three branches (executive, legislative, and judicial) would have democratic participation in all three branches. One must not leave out the role of the public in the judiciary (specifically, the role of lay judges.)** takethemud 23:33, 12 April 2006 (UTC)takethemud
A few days ago I tried to edit some opposing point of view into this Human Rights section, but got "reverted". Could we please now work out a compromise to bring some neutrality to this section?
The lead sentence describes human rights abuses which the citation dates back to 1967. I tried to include this fact, that these accusations date to 1967, but that was edited away.
Shouldn't a NPOV shown the current state of Human Rights in Cuba at the top of the section instead of undated, yet 40 year old, accusations? BruceHallman 16:35, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
However, remember that Nestor Kirchner (president of Argentina) said that he had seen nothing in Cuba to say they were abusing human rights.
Could we please stop this revert war? Is there no compromise?
User:147.126.46.146 please explain your most recent revert. BruceHallman 16:45, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I have generally restored what was there prior to deletion and replacement with what often amounts to propaganda or something close to it. I have, and will continue, to LEAVE IN statements supporting Castro's government, but I have no intention of watching criticism either outright deleted, or simply replaced by sympathetic revisionist statements. The continual removal of UN allegations, as well as the deletion of research (and the research quoted is but the very tip of the iceberg) into Cuban support for communist militism in South America and Africa amounts to a calculated attempt to whitewash history. Deleting these statements, or just as often modifying them so as not to inform is absurd behavior to defend. ()
Bruce I had a segment on that but it was deleted long ago, I protested and was banned. El Jigue 4-10-06
I've changed the government to Communist single-party state; as far as I can tell, the criticisms against that appelation was being a "mouthful". If it is a mouthful, it is certainly less a mouthful than applying two terms in the name of WP:NPOV. -- Bletch 23:04, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
After reading Adam's commentary and reviewing Republic, I withdraw my claim that toleration of opposition is a requirement to be considered a Republic. That said, if Republic is a virtual synonym for "non-Monarchy" (yes I understand that is an oversimplifaction), then it should be avoided for its over-broadness alone. I am fine with either Communist state, Communist single-party state, or Single party state. --Bletch 17:29, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Considering your withdrawal, please summarize why the Republic of Cuba is not a Republic, I cannot say I understand the reasoning of your POV. BruceHallman 18:08, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Adam: That part seems understandable in the model I use which equates communism with a rigid religion. However, what I cannot grasp the rationale nor understand the reason why somethings e.g. The Cayman Trench offends some people unless of course they have funds in Cayman bank accounts or they object to Plate Tectonics El Jigue 4-10-06
Indeed. I don't see what isn't neutral about "Communist state" - Castro has made no secret of the fact that he and his nation are communist. A "communist state" by nature is single party - otherwise it would not fit the definition. ()
Have added tag on the history section. I believe there are a large parts that are un-encyclopedic and POV. Please see mediation cabal [7] which is in session on this matter. -- Zleitzen 23:47, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I think that too much of the history section is un-encyclopedic, uncited and POV, El Jigue. But I would rather go through the collaboration process with experienced editors to overhaul this article than pick individual problems from it's present form. But here are some examples I've noticed.
The article mentions the minor involvement in Congo and not the major involvement Angola etc. I could go on, but I'd rather start a process of more dramatic overhaul.-- Zleitzen 00:56, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
There used to be a referance to Angola... some one will need to put it back in. The whitewashers are awfully persistant. ()
Z There used to be a section to which I contributed heavily, that dealt with these and almost every other conflict that Castro got himself involved with. But it was deleted, just as Comandante just deleted the fact that Antonio Perez Jimenez the source for data on landholdings was a comandante (lower case) in Castro's forces in the mountains. Of course Perez Jimenez did not do any fighting that was left to the real fighters and idiots like me who followed them. El Jigue 4-11-06
There are continual deletes of seemingly objective data, such as references to the contribution of plate tectonics to the formation of the Island, the role of the Chinese in the Cuban Wars of Independence, or the ethnic contribution of the Taínos, as clearly revealed by DNA studies, to ethnic composition of the Cuban population. Apparently there are some dumb humanities majors who do not think in scientific terms. El Jigue 4-11-06
I have restored a reasonably truthful version. I am happy to debate this, but automatic reversion to the previous pack of lies is unacceptable and will result in an edit war. I agree by the way that history section needs a major rewrite. It is far too long for this article when we also have History of Cuba, as well as being badly written and full of tendentious statements. Adam 01:25, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
There are some major problems with the newest edit. Cuba is not a one-party state. First of all, it is biased. Second, it is false. People of the opposition have also been elected by the people, into the National Assembly, just like all the other candidates. Pablo Odén and Raúl Suárez are members of Cuban Council of Churches, a Cuban christian political party, and they're in the national assembly. Raúl Suárez is also a minister in the baptist church.
The word "ruler" (regarding Fidel) is biased, especially when people outside Cuba are split wether Cuba is democratic or not. "facade of parliamentary government" is also terribly biased. "Only candidates who are members of or approved by the Communist Party are allowed to participate" is entirely false. The controversial "Fidel Castro, exercises direct personal control over the government" is not backed up by any kind of evidence. Another very controversial claim "The real basis for Castro's power is his position as First Secretary of the Communist Party of Cuba." is false. Again, Cuba's politics is not based on the Communist Party of Cuba. "The Communist Party retains power, through its control of the armed forces and police" is also TERRIBLY biased. And the last, but not the least biased claim "exercised by Castro's most trusted lieutenant, his bother and official sucessor Raul Castro." is reason for my edit here at talk. There is more bias in that section.
Adam Carr, please explain your edit of 15:16, 10 April 2006 where you removed external links to the Cuban Constitution. This edit appears to be an egregious POV, and appears to not meet WP:NPOV policy. I may simply be misunderstanding you, though the comment you wrote "(i can see the Communist Party of Wikipedia is well-entrenched at this article, which i guess is not surprising. If u want an edit war on this subject, comrade, u will get one)" leaves little room for doubt, would you please explain your edit? BruceHallman 04:02, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I did not intend to remove links to the Constitution. I intended to re-instate my truthful version of the Government and politics section. My POV is clear and open - this article should tell the truth about Cuba, which is that it is a communist dictatorship (not that I have used that expression). I realise this is hard for all you old lefties who continue to worship Fidel, but sooner or later you will have to face up to this. Adam 04:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
As I said earlier, I am not interested in compromises between truth and falsehood. All dictators claim that their people love them, so much so that there is no need for elections to demonstrate how much they love the Great Leader, and all dictators can find gullible fools willing to testify from the safety and comfort of their homselands how wonderful the Great Leader and how everybody they met during their visit told them so, despite the curious fact that 47 years after the Glorious Revolution they are all still dirt poor. Whether the Communist Party of Wikipedia likes it or not, this article will be got into shape eventually. Resistance is futile. Adam 11:23, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
No-one supposes that Castro rules Cuba all by himself - no dictator has ever done that. What the term "dictator" means is that he is the head of a dictatorial regime, one built by and around his personal authority, which his subordinates accept either out of conviction or self-interest. A dictatorial regime is one that tolerates no opposition and uses the power of the state without legal restraint against those who try to oppose it. That is how Hitler, Stalin, Peron and Batista ruled, and it is how Castro rules. I don't deny that he has a measure of popular support - as did all the above-mentioned dictators. Whether he has majority support is something that only a free and contested election could determine. In the meantime, like all dictators, he fears opposition and suppresses it by force. If Cuba is such an earthly paradise, with all that free health care and all, why do 2,000 Cubans a year risk their lives (and frequently lose them) trying to escape from it? Adam 13:02, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Uh, not really. Almost every Cuban exile who lived in Cuba I have ever spoke to in Miami started talking first about "las communistas" and political oppression. I hardly ever have heard anything about economic conditions except by way of unfavorable comparisons to Batista or occasionally the plight of relatives. Incidentally, I restored the link to the Cuban constitution. It belongs in an encyclopedia article, although I doubt that it is followed. ()
It's really rather counterproductive, not to mention inappropriate, to register personal views speculating on why Cuba is poor, or "if Cuba is such an earthly paradise why do Cubans attempt to escape" etc. See WP:NOT if in any doubt. There's any number of other spaces, blogs, etc where you can opine ad nauseam about this or any other topic; kindly use these and not wikipedia. -- Zleitzen 14:18, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Z: There are many scholarly economic analyses of why Cuba is poor now and was relatively (to other countries in the region) prosperous before Castro. Take for instance the yearly volumes of the Association for the Study of the Cuban Economy. As to the present Cuban constitution, it is just one of a series of similar documents produced by the present regime, it is only followed when it is convenient to the Castro government. The last real Cuban Constitution is the mildly left wing 1940 document, which at least attempted a free concensus. As to opinion, history is rooted in a compedium first hand witness reports. Yet. there are also seemingly endless articles and books analyzed third, fourth and nth by "historians" who do not know details of Cuban history. Oh BTW what are your credentials to do such a major revision. I would hate to see "you do" yet another whitewash and gross over simplification. El Jigue 4-11-06.
The debate back and forth above is interesting but off topic. What concerns me is that several people appear to be advocating and exercising editorial policy contrary to Wikipedia policy. I believe that ultimately this will cause our failure to create an encylopedic article about Cuba. I ask these people to change their actions to comply with Wikipedia policy or if we cannot agree about group policy, mediation and enaction of a mediated decision. BruceHallman 14:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Of course I do not believe that my opinion should override all others, that is why I am asking for mediation and enaction of a mediated decision. We either can agree to a common set of rules and behaviours, or descend into never ending edit wars. I propose we adhere to Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines and that after due process, we ban and block those who refuse to do so. BruceHallman 15:16, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
It is always tempting to try to silence those who oppose our views; however seems most wise not to. One way to restrain myself is to remember that my objective here is merely to develop my knowledge and prepare background for my book of memories snd to better understand the mechanisms, processes, stengths and weaknesses of Castro propaganda. My book will be "Coming soon to a bookstore near you." (:>) Any educational effect on others is merely an extra benefit. Another matter that might well be raised is length, an electronic encyclopedia does not have the size limitations that printed volumes do. The very word encyclopedia at leasts in its origins in pre-Revolutionary France suggests that it is a compendium of all knowledge, while this is seemingly impossible.... thus an electronic version should not be expected to fit a Victorian type format or length El Jigue 4-10-06
With hopes of ending the edit war over "Government Type", I propose that we conduct a straw poll as follows:
---Begin straw poll rules---
The poll to start 00:00, 19 April 2006 (UTC), and ends exactly one week after the start. A first ballot winner requires more than 50% of the votes. Should none of the options receive more than 50%, a second straw poll shall begin immediately be conducted with a duration of exactly one week between the top three candidates, with a second ballot winner being the choice with the most votes. Anonymous votes are not allowed. One vote per registered Wikipedia user is allowed. With hopes of controlling sock puppets, no votes allowed by users not registered as of 00:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC) Sign your vote with four tildes. You are allowed to change your vote up until the end of election deadline.
---End straw poll rules---
---Begin draft of straw poll---
What is the group consensus of the most neutral description of Government Type for Cuba?
1.Communist State:
2.Communist state:
3.Communist Republic:
4.Democratic Republic:
5.One Party State:
6.Socialist Republic:
7.Republic: Adam 03:15, 12 April 2006 (UTC) (there are much more important things to worry about),
8. Remove 'goverment type' from the Country Box:
9. Show both 'Communist State' and 'Socialist Republic':
10. Socialist State:
---End draft of straw poll---
---Begin discussion of straw poll---
We can have an open discussion of the structure of the straw poll, above is just an idea as a start, please give your opinions. BruceHallman 00:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Communist State or Communist state would be the most accurate - all others are either misleading (Democratic Republic), outright wrong (Socialist Republic) or uninformative (One Party state, Communist Republic). ()
Perhaps there should be an option to remove the Government Type altogether to avoid future edit wars? -- Zleitzen 01:07, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
This is a silly argument. The infobox should just describe Cuba as a republic, since that is clearly the outward form of its government - it has a president and not a king. The debate on the realities of government in Cuba should take place in the "Government and politics" section. "Communist state", "socialist republic" etc are inherently loaded terms and should not be used in the infobox. Adam 04:30, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
If Socialist Republic is good enough for the Encyclopædia Britannica, I would propose that it is also the best option here [9]-- Zleitzen 01:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
.“…I favor calling it 'Socialist' simply because that is what they call it themselves, and that the word Communist, while descriptive of the 'one party', also carries purjorative (sic) connotations dating from the Cold War period in the USA. BruceHallman 13:36, 12 April 2006 (UTC)”
Oh wow! A description of the reality of a one party system in Cuba is called “purjorative (sic).” Pejorative would be not to call Cuba’s “one party system.” What is next banning people from Wikipedia for “desacato” as in Cuba, for insulting Castro and the Cuban government. El Jigue 4-12-06
The problem is that Castro is a self declaered Communist and repudiated the more limited forms of socialism advocated by some of his earlier allies. He is a communist, not a socialist. The Cuban economy is communist in every sense of the word. I realize that many people don't like communists, but this would be like not calling Kennedy a democrat because lots of people don't like democrats. ()
Can we begin work to resolve the disputed portions?
This part from the History Section lacks in neutrality, can we work out some more neutral wording"
"The new revolutionary regime adopted successive "land reforms" and eventually confiscated almost all private property. At first, Castro was reluctant to discuss his plans for the future, but eventually he declared himself a communist, and with the backing of Che Guevara, explained that he was trying to build socialism in Cuba, focusing on government provided health care and public education, and began close political and economic relations with the Soviet Union and to a lesser extent with China. "
perhaps:
"The new revolutionary government adopted successive land reforms and eventually nationalized almost all private property. At first, Castro was reluctant to discuss his plans for the future citation needed, but eventually (cite the dates) he declared himself a communist, and with the backing of Che Guevara, declared the goal of socialism for Cuba, focusing on government provided health care and public education, and began close political and economic relations with the Soviet Union and to a lesser extent with China. BruceHallman 14:53, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Bruce it let me be brutally frank, you obviously have not read the scholarly works cited in the Cuba/Printed sources section especially Thomas 1998, let alone the soon to be published de la Cova 2006. What is happening is "inconvenient" citations are removed or hidden apparently by unconditional supporters of Castro e.g. in Cuba/Printed sources then these mendacious characters make spurious demands for deleted references and "NPOV" essays that fit their puerile illusions. Come back when you have read the Moncada section by Thomas, until then it would help your credibility to be far more discrete with your remarks than at present. El Jigue 4-10-06
Pennelope Goodfriend wrote:
I hope the WP article doesn't try to paint Cuba as a socialist utopia, with prosperity and excellent free medical care. Because if it were, people would be crazy to risk their lives to leave it. (Or does this mean I'm "taking sides"?) -- Uncle Ed 19:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Bruce. What do you base your ideas on Cuba? What you are asking is to repudiate all but official Cuban government reports. Cubans on the Island have had "state captialism" forced on them. and they don't like it. For instance, in the mountains of Oriente where there are still some private growers of coffee. They must fill a quota, if the quota is not filled they must pay ten fold the price of the unfulfilled part of the quota to the government. To enforce this every crop year the Raul Castro's forces (he is in control there, hanging out in luxury at a confiscated residence near Guisa) set up road blocks to "capture" this illegal coffee. El Jigue 4-12-06
Bruce let me be brutally frank, you obviously have not read the scholarly works cited in the Cuba/Printed sources section especially Thomas 1998, let alone the soon to be published de la Cova 2006. What is happening is "inconvenient" citations are removed or hidden apparently by unconditional supporters of Castro (as was Cuba/Printed sources) then these mendacious characters make spurious demands for deleted references and "NPOV" essays that fit their puerile illusions. Come back when you have read the Moncada section by Thomas, until then it would help your credibility to be far more discrete with your remarks than at present. El Jigue 4-10-06
Comandante, can we discuss your edits as part of a collaborative process? BruceHallman 21:43, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Sure. I personally think that Bletch's edits are extremely POV and bias. For one thing, why does Cuba's current political status need to be mentioned in the opening paragraph. That should just be left to geography. Secondly, calling terrorists who blow up airliners "freedom fighters" is absurd and has no place in this article. Just look at some of the things he says in his version: "After years of research on the topic, and after the acquittals of several trials on those accused, there is a strong suspicion that the attack was self-inflicted to be used as a propaganda tool against the United States and to discredit Cuban freedom-fighters." Strong suspicion by who? He doesn't even bother to provide a link. Comandante 22:06, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I think there used to be a link to an academic journal after that that was edited out... someone needs to find it and put it back in. ()
If Socialist Republic is good enough for the Encyclopædia Britannica, I would propose that it is also the best option here [10]-- Zleitzen 01:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
How about we just keep politics out of the opening paragraph alltogether? The rest of the article is pretty much completely devoted to that. Comandante 01:22, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Commandante you have reverted my work on the education of Cuba without justification. Please explain this? -- Zleitzen 01:26, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Please explain where I have deleted good changes?-- Zleitzen 01:40, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
On the note of Patria y Libertad translated to English is "Patriot and Liberty" and it should reflect that. -- Scott Grayban 01:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Commandante, you have now removed my paragraph on "What happens after Castro?" several times without any explanation. If you feel that this paragraph does not belong in the article, please explain why; otherwise, please stop removing it. Thanks. Kwertii 02:00, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm attempting to readd the info that has been lost in Comandante's reverts; the problem is that I cannot figure out what precisely he objects to; when looking at his diffs, I see info on geography, formatting and organizational reverts that seem to get caught up in and thrown out with the bath water, and so far the two things that he has specifically referred to on talk have been addressed, yet he continued in reverting. There seems to be consensus that the "History of Cuba" section is oversized. I've also changed the comment about Cuba being the only "Communist state" in the hemisphere to say "...governed by a Communist party". If there is perceived bias by the term Communist state, surely qualifying it further to sidestep the term should be acceptable to all. -- Bletch 10:09, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Fair points Bruce. What would you propose for the opening paragraph?-- Zleitzen 15:04, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
That's acceptable to me also. -- Zleitzen 15:31, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I have created a page for a Cuba Portal. See Portal:Cuba. It is my hope it will serve as a gateway to those interested in learning about Cuba, and also as the backbone of Cuba-related articles here on Wikipedia, organizing them into a coherent, easy to navigate group of articles. I hope all persons interested in Cuba assist in its construction. takethemud 23:55, 12 April 2006 (UTC)takethemud
I would like to know why "communist" keeps being replaced with socialist, why the link to the cuban constitution keeps disappearing, why the human rights section keeps being truncated and why the pre-Castro economic statistics keep being removed. Please explain your whitewashing attempt. ()
() You removed my edits on education in Cuba. Please explain why? -- Zleitzen 15:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, you can check Comandate's IP, correct? Cuba IS a communists state - it is NOT merely socialist - the term socialist is inaccurate and little more that an attempt at covering up the current state. I have tried to retain new additions when reverting from attempted whitewashing. Which edits on education are you talking about? As long as we are on education, why do the comments about the earliest universities in Cuba and the statistics about the current educational levels keep disappearing? Part of my reverts has restored this information, which seems to be disappearing. "Broadscale reverts" have occured because major edits have removed valid information, which has been replaced with non-information (brief statements lacking any facts or statistics in the place of the ones removed) or nothing at all. Major removals like this are really not at all acceptable - I see no reason why lots of information should keep disappearing and I see no reason current educational data and historical referances should not be retained. ()
- THESE KEEP BEING REMOVED FOR UNKNOWN REASONS. EXPLAIN PLEASE. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM REMOVING IN THE FUTURE. ()
Likewise with whitewashing the control of Cuba by the communist party and Castro personally - replacing "one Party" wish "soviergn socialist" is nothing but pure whitewashing.
The reason is I refer to it as white-washing is that it is replacing the term "One party" with a non-critical term - they are essentially trying to remove referances to Cuba being a one-party state by replacing it with other comments. There is NO reason that the single party government is not worthy of being noted and I am really appalled that people keep trying to edit it out because they don't want to see it. Zleitzen, if it need to we reworded, then reword it, don't just throw out entire studies and paragraphs of data because you don't like semantics, just fix the grammer (which I didn't even see anything wrong with) or whatever. Everyone (or most everyone) is aware that Cuba is an independant nation... repeatedly noting its "soveriegn" status doesn't really tell us anything... I don't care if it is noted somewhere that Cuba is independant, but not at the cost of REPLACING facts like "single party" ( RookZERO 19:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)).
By my works ye shall know me. Adam 18:11, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I think it is a great idea to edit down the length of this article. It would be good to start "diverting" some of the text to subarticles - I've already done some of this. Alot of times, I just copied and pasted text from this article into a new sub-article; this way we can retain all the text in a subarticle and remove all but the most relevant text from the "Cuba" article. That would make this article more readable and allow a greater amount of depth to be covered in subarticles. The History of Cuba article would be a great place to put alot of stuff from the history section, for example. I also created a Cuba portal that could use everybody's input. takethemud 18:42, 13 April 2006 (UTC)takethemud
Hi. I have had an account for awhile... I'll stay signed in if it matters... which it really shouldn't. I guess it might be a good idea to move the Cuban Culture section over to the article of that name and just have a link instead of the information here. The problem with NPOV is that certain individuals don't like to follow the reality (not really POV) of the self-declared status of Cuba (as a Communist State) and keep deleting or modifying the quotes or links that to things like the Cuban constitution or Castro's speeches that support that statement in the hope of making the issue reflect more positively on the current Cuban regime. (
RookZERO
19:51, 13 April 2006 (UTC))
How about both?
I think the form of government is important enough to go somewhere in the intro.
I also realize that for many decades Communists have quibbled about terminology: "the free world ain't free", etc.
One of the good things about Wikipedia is that is brings clarity to every topic. So if any particular group of advocates intentionally uses obscure jargon to hide their real (and sinister) meaning, we need not cooperate with that. It's not taking sides against someone's point of view to clarify what their POV is.
Cuba is about Castro being in control, and imposing a socialist economy on the people, whethere they like it or not. It's not a democracy, i.e., not a "republic" in the usual sense of the word. It's a dictatorship (see Totalitarianism).
By "Communist", writers in the West generally mean rule by a Communist Party or "workers party" having a strong commitment to "Communist philosophy" (see Marxism-Leninism).
Any quibbles that Cuba isn't "Communist" can be explained in this light:
Let's not play word games; let's just write as objectivel and fairly and accurately as we can. -- Uncle Ed 17:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
To Bruce: sometimes the best way to begin a collaboration is to announce frankly one's own beliefs. I've been devotedly anti-communist since my youth.
To Zleitzen: your wording is definitely better than mine. Let's wait a bit, then if no objections arise ... go for it! -- Uncle Ed 19:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
All due respect to you all, Castro declares himself a Communist (NOT a socialist) and rejected the "comprimised socialism" and "revisionist socialism" and "incomplete communism" (His words) of some of his early allies. Socialism is NOT the same as communism. Socialist economies are NOT AT ALL the same as communist ones. I don't know how this still needs to be debated. For crying out loud... why are people trying to use terms that Castro himself, and the COMMUNIST party themselves disagree with? The term "socialist republic" is simply wrong as a point of fact, the term "socialist" applied the economy is simply a bold-faced lie. I really cannot believe that there is anyone so crazy that this even needs to be debated. ()
Unfortunately we cannot use my phrase. Because it comes from The Encyclopedia of the Nations" [20]. Also see my comments from Encyclopedia Britannica and check the definition of Cuba as a Socialist Republic there. () I suggest you open a debate with those two institutions about their "craziness". -- Zleitzen 20:11, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I just received the following
"
This is your last warning. The next time you vandalize a page, as you did to Cuba, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Scott Grayban 18:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)"
I have asked Sgrayban as to nature of my alleged "Vandalism" but have not yet received an answer. El Jigue 4-10-06
147.126.46.145, while I can appreciate your intentions, your revert removed my good faith attempt to bring neutrality to the " Cuba is the only Communist state in the Western hemisphere and is now the only state in the hemisphere which is not a democracy." sentence, through discussion and collaboration. Are you willing to discuss this sentence? Can you propose alternate compromise, more NPOV wording? Your unexplained revert appears to not be collaborative and has the effect of an edit war. BruceHallman 19:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Go ahead and put it back in. I have painted with a rather broad brush to remove certain attempts at removing critical information... I'm sorry if I didn't retain or restore your sentance. I don't have any objection to the wording of that statement and won't object to you puting that statement back in. I'm trying to keep other stuff from getting deleted out.
Perusal of the bibliography of papers on Cuban educational progress appears to suggest that such studies derive their original data e.g. [21] exclusively from Cuban government sources. El Jigue 4-13-06
Bruce your point of view could be considered pseudo Albiginese in that good and evil are found equivalent. In this concept of yours Castro's repressive society where dissent is punished is found equivalent to modern democracies where all data may be challenged. Thus the data from the Cuban government is viewed equally to the compendium of view points in the democratic market place of ideas. Thus NPOV by this definition of necessity pseudo Albiginese. El Jigue 4-13-04
Please explain your edits to the education section, and how they improve the article. Why are there now 2 paragraphs detailing the same study. Why are there now 2 sentences which say all "students regardless of age and gender wear school uniforms". Please bear in mind that I have tried to rework this section 4 times because of these repeated edits. -- Zleitzen 20:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
If it wasn't you who did this, El Jigue then I suggest you register and use 1 name to avoid future confusions which may lead to blocks or bans. -- Zleitzen 21:07, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Listen up all you great editors, Comandante has gotten a 24 hour ban for revert warring on the article so I would make the best of that time and get this article in shape. There are alot of POV still that need attention. I'd start editing like mad. I know there are few here that are great at writing and I hope you make the most of this time. -- Scott Grayban 13:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
People should argue less and edit more, then this page wouldn't fill up so quickly. Adam 03:30, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Users should respect and adhere to Wikipedia policies and guidelines first and foremost, Adam. (see mediation on this matter). -- Zleitzen 13:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Scott, you removed comments relevant to the discussion, not just the personal attack of the user below. Your comments above do not assume good faith. I repeat the above, Users should respect and adhere to Wikipedia policies and guidelines first and foremost.
-- Zleitzen 15:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Let see today:
was deleted. Busy Busy Busy Go guys go! By the time you have finished, there will be nothing left of balance in this section. Only praise to the gods of marxist ideology. xe xe El Jigue 4-13-05
Bletch, You wrote that Cuba is not a democracy, would you please provide a citation per WP:V. BruceHallman 04:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
He doesn't need to. A democracy is a country in which the people are able to choose their government through free elections. Cuban law forbids any political party other than the Communist Party. Therefore there can be no free elections, therefore Cuba is not a democracy. QED. Adam 04:48, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Adam they are going to trundle out that old chestnut of Arnold August, the Canadian communist who is a tourist guide in Havana. Xe xe El Jigue 4-13-06
Given that the article itself states that the Communist Party is the sole legal political entity, that is enough to justify the comment about Cuba not being a democracy. -- Bletch 12:02, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Here are some materials on the 1998 Cuban "elections", from this source:
January 11: provincial and national assemblies election
August 1999: "The role and work of the candidacy commissions towards the January 11, 1998 elections to the national and provincial assemblies" (pages 299-317). "The electoral campaign for the national assembly and the provincial assemblies, November 29-January 10" (pages 317-354). "The January 11, 1998 elections" (pages 354-364). In this election there are two ballots, one "is to vote for the deputies to the National Assembly, and the other one is for the election of delegates to the provincial assembly in which the vote takes place" (page 354). "1998 election results for the National Assembly" (page 363). Gives by province the percent of valid votes, percent of blank ballots, and percent of spoiled ballots.
Azicri 2000: "The regime asked for a unified vote in the 1998 parliamentary elections for 601 delegates to the National Assembly and 1,192 deputies to the Provincial Organs of People's Power. The elections were also rated as a national referendum on the nation's socialist system. As in 1993, the regime claimed electoral victory. Almost all (98.35 percent) of the 8 million plus registered voters went to the polls. Ninety-five percent of the 7,534,008 votes cast were valid, but 130,227 (1.64 percent) were void and 266,379 (.3.36 percent) were blank-5 percent of the total ballots signified a lower negative vote than in 1993" (page 119). Gives additional statistics. "In the 1998 National Assembly there were 166 women (27.6%) and 435 men (72.3%), for a total membership of 601" (page 313). Describes their "social composition."
Chronicle of parliamentary elections and developments 32 1999: Describes the purpose of the elections, the electoral system, the background and outcome of the elections, and statistics (pages 57-59). "According to the Electoral Law, there is one Deputy for every 20,000 inhabitants or fraction above 10,000 in each of the country's 169 municipalities" (page 57). "The 1998 parliamentary elections were held simultaneously with polling for 1,192 representatives to the country's 14 provincial assemblies. For the expanded National Assembly's 601 seats (up from 589), an identical number of candidatures were finally approved, after screening, by the National Candidature Commission. While not all were members of the ruling and sole political organization - the Communist Party of Cuba - they backed the policies of the Government" (page 58). Statistics include "results of the elections," "distribution of seats according to category," "distribution of seats according to sex," and "distribution of seats according to age" (page 59).
Country report. Cuba, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Puerto Rico 1997, 3: "Although the conduct of the secret ballot in the national elections is scrupulously fair, voters only have one candidate. The results will show the number of spoilt papers and abstentions, which provides a barometer of popular support for the government. After seven years of severe economic hardship, the government is likely to have to admit a diminuition of support" (page 12).
Country report. Cuba, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Puerto Rico 1998, 1: "The results of the January elections have been cited by the government as a popular endorsement. There continues to be a firm rejection of any suggestion of the legalisation of opposition political parties. However, such rigidity contrasts with the clear increase in the space granted for religious activities, and a gradual transformation of economic, social and political culture arising from economic adjustment" (page 7). "Elections were held for the national and municipal [should say provincial] assemblies on January 11th, following unprecedented electioneering by the government. The vote is an endorsement of pre-selected candidates rather than a choice between rivals. Half of the candidates are nominated at public meetings before gaining approval from electoral committees, while the other half are nominated by official mass organisations (such as trade unions, farmers organisations and students unions). A turnout of 98.4% of registered voters was reported. Of the total votes, 5% of ballot papers were left blank or spoiled. The sum of abstentions, spoiled and blank votes was therefore only 6.5% of the total electorate. A further 5.6% chose to vote for some of the candidates (a 'selective vote') rather than endorsing all of them on a slate (a 'united vote'), as called for in the election campaign. Subtracting all the possible choices which might be interpreted as rejection of the government, 88.2% of the electorate were reported to have obediently opted for the united vote" (page 10). "The government claims that the elections represent a show of popular support, but its critics have attributed the result instead to fear or apathy on the part of those who do not support the government. They suspect that the result may reflect electoral engineering (in constituencies known to have a high proportion of voters who are more inclined to express dissatisfaction by registering blank or spoiled votes, the candidates offered tend to be highly respected local figures not associated closely with the government), the lack of independent supervision of the count or the barrage of propaganda. They also point out that the system of selection of candidates effectively excludes any truly independent voices" (page 11).
Keesing's record of world events January 1998: "The second direct election of deputies to the enlarged National Assembly of People's Power (ANPP), the Cuban unicameral legislature, was held on Jan. 11. Only candidates nominated by the PCC were permitted to contest the election. Figures issued by the National Electoral Commission showed that all 601 candidates for the 601 posts had obtained the necessary 50 per cent of the votes to be elected. The turnout amongst the 8 million registered voters was officially put at 98.35 per cent. Elections were also held on Jan. 11 to fill 1,192 seats in 14 provincial assemblies" (page 42006).
Prevost 2002: "The trends evidenced in the 1993 elections continued in 1998. There was an overall participation rate in excess of 98 percent. Nationally, 95 percent of the votes cast were judged to be valid, with only 3.3 percent blank and 1.7 percent spoiled. As in 1993 there had been strong calls from those outside Cuba who oppose the revolution for voters to use the occasion to voice opposition to the process; there is no evidence that such a protest occurred. The process of passing on political power to a new generation continued, as two-thirds of the National Assembly delegates were elected for the first time; 28 percent were women. The transition at the level of top leadership also continued, with 45 percent of the Council of State becoming members of this body for the first time" (page 351).
El proceso electoral en Cuba: 1992-1998 1998: "Quinta legislatura 1998-2003: esta legislatura está compuesta por 601 diputados, los que eligieron la Presidencia de la ANPP y el Consejo de Estado" (page 4). Lists officers. "Elecciones generales de 1998" (pages 111-197). Reproduces articles from Cuban publications, including election results and the name of each deputy with the district they represent and the percent of the vote they received.
Roman 1999: "After the...1998 [election], the percentage of deputies who belonged to the [PCC] was a little over 70 percent" (page 94). "Of the 601 National Assembly candidates for the 1998 elections, 145 (24.1 percent) were production or service sector workers; 278 (46.25 percent) were municipal delegates, including 90 presidents and vice presidents of 'consejos populares'; 166 (27.62 percent) were female, which was an increase of 32, and 209 (34.8 percent) were incumbents" (page 138).
Adam 05:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Hasta la vista, Adam 11:35, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Excellent work. The article is now in remarkably better shape. 172 | Talk 12:16, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I have removed some statements some would believe to be POV; added some links and new info; and provided info on Elections from the Elections in Cuba article. Comandante 13:01, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Let me see
This list foes on endlessly * I quit after you idiots are insisting Cuba is now a democracy I really wish it was so. El Jigue 4-14-06
Heated discussion aside, can everyone take a deep breath, and look at the article? I think we all can agree that the article doesn't match anybody's personal point of view, but that overall it is a really good article and that it is moving towards a central 'neutral point' between all the points of view. BruceHallman 15:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
writes:
Blocks User talk:205.240.227.15 [25]
What Sgrayban does not realize that idiot as in “useful idiot” or “useful fool” is a technical term in political discourse as in Mona Sharon’s 1993 book Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got It Wrong in the Cold War and Still Blame America First Regnery Publishing, Inc. ISBN 0895261391. (reviews at [26]). The term is in constant use e.g. [27] [28] even if Wikipedia does not fully agree Useful idiot. One of the most prominent of these Useful Idiots was Walter Duranty [29].
One notes that Grayban does not threaten Comandante when he calls names such as terrorist mafia etc, (apparently comandate’s revision history has been purged from Wikipedia [30] but hey but such inequality “la ley del embudo” is par for the course here it seems. Supposedly banned for 24 hours Comandante is back at it.
As to being angry, perhaps if you had risked your life for freedom in Cuba, with the bullets flying over your head, and wounding and killing those beside, and then find all you property taken, been imprisoned, seeing, and at times even burying, the executed, and then exiled for endless decades a given person, perhaps even you, would be somewhat perturbed. El Jigue 4-14-06
Grayban following Wikipedia principals please document what ever trauma you went through, thus we can be sure of your expertise on Cuba El Jigue 4-14-06
For those of you that think I am flexing should read Wikipedia:Civility#General_suggestions before they make another rude comment on this talk page. It is a blocking offense. This talk page has been riddled with it and I have tried to curb those flame war's and revert's but I am just near the end of it and ready to get a admin to deal with the ones that don't wont to play nice here. -- Scott Grayban 17:19, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I am sure this will be done most selectively (:>) xe xe El Jigue 4-14-06
There are gross errors in
"The 1952 election, was contested between
Roberto Agramonte of the liberals and Batista, who was seeking a return to office. When it became apparent that Batista had no chance of winning, he staged a coup on 10 March 1952, and held power with the backing of a nationalist section of the army, and of the Communists, as a “provisional president” for the next two years. In 1954, under pressure from the U.S., he agreed to elections. The liberals put forward ex-President Grau as their candidate, but he withdrew amid allegations that Batista was rigging the elections in advance. Batista could now claim to be an elected President, and his regime tolerated a considerable amount of dissent. By Latin American standards, Batista was a very mild dictator." For instance the Liberal party was long gone by this time, it was an election mainly between the "Autenticos" and the "Ortodoxo" Revolutionary Parties.
This could be fixed, I could do it, but others are sure to inject further nonsense. So you guys fix it. El Jigue 4-14-06
"Patria" means "homeland" in Spanish, not "patriotism", as any Spanish speaker or English-Spanish dictionary will confirm. "Patriotism" is "patriotismo" in Spanish. Who keeps changing the English translation to say "patrioitism" in the article? Kwertii 18:46, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I was confident that Cuba was one of a number of countries that is referred to as a "fatherland" when translated to English. This group includes all sorts of nations; Norway, Netherlands, and and so on. However, the more I look into the more ambiguous it becomes. I believe that for accuracy it should be "fatherland" (Castros's oft-quoted "fatherland or death" speech etc) but for avoiding controversy it may be worth using "homeland" as the two are interchangeable in translation. -- Zleitzen 20:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
The fact is that patria derives from the Latin pater, father, so it is correctly translated as "fatherland." This has nothing to do with Nazis, and I am not American, so spare me your childish political insults. If the Cubans want to consider their country as a female then should make their slogan "Matria y Libertad". That said, I have no objection to rendering it "homeland" if that is less offensive to politically-correct gender-neutralist ears. Adam 00:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
The issue is ambiguous, despite Adam's assertions. The Latin motto "Pro Rege Et Patria" used widely on English crests is translated as "for king and country" and not "for king and fatherland". Likewise the motto "Pro deo et patria" (For God and Country).
Patria (v. Patriarchal) is from the latin Pater (which became Padre in castillian)... you have Father (masc.) -Patr- as a modifier of the noun Land (FEM.) -ia-... that is why Patria (My Father's Land) takes LA... Patria is feminine, but it means Fatherland ([to El Jigue:] from the cojonudos romans, not teutons... you've fallen for the "little dictator" making-fun antics of yankis)... the cuban's "Madre Patria" is spain, not cuba... he dies for his father's LAND, LA PATRIA... o carioca --200.142.180.66 21:55, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that it makes sense to balance the POV of the first paragraph with the POV of the second paragraph. The first paragraph essentially makes one statement, 'Batista' was authoritarian, followed by a POV argument the U.S. sanctions have detrimental effect on human rights in Cuba.
While the second new paragraph with an opposing view describes four 'facts', prohibition on free speech, (disputed and not agreed), free business (it doesn't acknowledge recent liberalization of private business), violations of human rights (again does not recognize modern improvements in human rights), personal property (mostly not true, as most personal property is allowed) followed by a POV argument about control tactics.
(I admit my personal POV biases), but the first POV paragraph has one verified and agreed 'fact', and the second paragraph has four generally unverified 'facts'. These simply do not balance.
The two POV arguments do approximately balance. I support balancing the POV's here, but the four unverified 'facts' do not balance. BruceHallman 03:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Personally I prefer to see notable cited sources embedded into the article for these types of statements (if available). They can help reduce the potential for POV accusations etc. We are characterising a debate, so it may also be worth combining opposing statements into one depiction. A rough example would be something like this.
This is just my personal preference, though. And it does requires research and editing of both sides of the POV. -- Zleitzen 05:52, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Are we ready for a 1st round peer review yet? -- Scott Grayban 07:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Who are these "peers"? Some further comments:
Bletch, you have reinserted the statement "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy" in the first paragraph (again). This comes after a week of edit wars, blocks and bans over this issue. Please review talk page history and cite a source for this. For guidance I provided the encarta description of Cuban democracy, I'll repeat it here;
Democracy is very broad term that is not limited to particular political systems. Encarta recognise this and write accordingly, keeping to encylopedic standards. The communsist state argument was hammered out at length above. And personally I believe there is a problem of bias in relying on US military and government sources on these matters. Rather like relying on Fidel Castro's opinions of the US to inform the United States article. -- Zleitzen 12:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
It's a tricky business, Scott. But terms such as democracy, communist state and socialist cannot be used in "short hand" in an encyclopedia. Each term has to be used in the proper form. This is why other encyclopedias use particular language and terminology (see encarta above or encyclopedia britannica entries on Cuba etc). Bletch's statement contradicts that method. Although I may believe in passing that "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy", I am creating a short hand for the term that does not correspond with the true definition. Btw, I thought there was some consensus that the first paragraph wouldn't contain such political detail in any case? -- Zleitzen 13:21, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Another conflict arises from providing alternative POV's on this. ie. Cuba is a Socialist or Communist State depending on the person's view. By that rationale an article on (say) Ireland could carry the (albeit unlikely) statement "Ireland is a democratic or theocratic depending on the person's view". That is a poor example, but do you see the problems here? Who has this different view? -- Zleitzen 13:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Scott Grayban 13:37, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Cuba is a Socialist Republic (as in UK is a constitutional monarchy), in which the Communist Party of Cuba is the sole legal political party. That I believe is the correct entry and corresponds with the terminology of other encyclopedias etc. Although the Bletch edit I query here was "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy". -- Zleitzen 13:44, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Adam, Why don't you stop the reverting for a bit and talk here and lets hammer out the issue of "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy." and be done with it now. Or does the need of another block in order before we can get this worked out in the talk? -- Scott Grayban 13:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
"Cuba is a Socialist Republic , in which the Communist Party of Cuba is the sole legal political party." isn't correct either. The Communist Party of Cuba is not the sole political party. They do allow other's to participate. However The Communist Party of Cuba does hold the majority of the political seats which does make them the ruling party. -- Scott Grayban 13:50, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually it is the sole legal political party. Some self-proclaimed political parties claim to operate, but they are not recognized by the constitution. Those who run for office, however, do not have to be a member of any political party. On another note, this statement "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy.", is an obvious POV and not a fact so it should be permanently removed. The rest of the article is political enough. Comandante 13:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
The communist party is the only legal political party in cuba, according to the Cuban constitution and all other sources including US Government. [35] -- Zleitzen 14:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Encyclopedia Britannica [36] alongside the above mentioned legally binding Cuban Constitution -- Zleitzen 14:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
You can play word games with the term "democracy", but in the end if you have a party with a monopoly on political activity and other parties or forms of opposition cannot play a serious role, then the country in question is not a democracy. -- Bletch 14:45, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I didn't realise you were asking for a source to go within the article itself. Why not use the Cuban Constitution and keep the earlier phrase?-- Zleitzen 15:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
No problem, Scott. Regardless, the Cuban constitution is the best possible source for this legal matter, and it's linked within the article. (Or it was the last time I looked!)-- Zleitzen 16:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Scott, I am curious about the source of the "Can't use Encyclopedia Britannica as a source because the user is required to buy a subscription to see the entire article." rule. Commonly that information is available for free in public libraries who share there subscription of the online Encyclopedia Britanica to the public for free. Indeed, many people can only afford to access Wikipedia from public libraries (because they cannot afford computers and cannot afford to pay for a dedicated personal internet connection). Or, when I cannot afford to pay the subscription fee for a print magazine (or buy a book), I go to the public library to read their copy for free. BruceHallman 15:43, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok now I am getting tired of this. The next revert done without talking on the talk page and getting this worked out will not only find themselves blocked for a long time. There will be no more reverts by anyone unless there is vandalism period. Everyone is violating the WP:3RR here. Comandante is looking for such a ban. -- Scott Grayban 14:03, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I just stated my reason for deleting that POV statement and now your threatening to ban me. That's typical. I wonder why you haven't threatened to ban Bletch who keeps on sneaking his bias into the article? Comandante 14:11, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Scott discussed a ban concerning Adam's revert above, Commandante. I see no bias here. -- Zleitzen 14:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I have told him to stop as well. I'll do it again too Bletch if you revert or change this article in any manner other then to remove vandalism I'll have you blocked from here. This WP:3RR blantant violation will stop one way or another. -- Scott Grayban 14:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Bletch just reverted the article. Comandante 14:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
You need to accept that the days of communist rule over this article are over. Adam 14:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
You need to accept that Cuba is a sovereign, Socialist state, and that at the end of the day, there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. Comandante 14:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
So are you guys going to do anything about Bletch? Or are you going to sit around and hope that i revert him so you can block me as well? Comandante 14:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I just issued the last WP:3RR warning for Adam, Comandante, and Bletch. And i'll post it here as well so that everyone can see it and can't claim I'm being biased here.
Since you are an active participant in this
Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert a single page more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the effect of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you.
In the section above Bletch wrote: "the question was whether it is a democracy or not." Yes indeed, and repeatedly I have been trying to engage you, Bletch, in a discussion of just this question, though I get a clear impression that you evade our efforts to engage in a discussion of this question. Re-read the message archives and you will see many questions directed to you about this issue which you did not answer. Restating a couple key questions: Please cite a reference that democracy is required to have parties, and if yes, how many parties? In other words, how correct is your assertion that a one party democracy not a democracy? You have not demonstrated that your assertion is not original research. Also, I grant that many people share your POV that democracy in Cuba is very disfunctional. Still, why is a bad democracy not a type of democracy? You *repeatedly* revert your POV sentence that Cuba is not a democracy, and your POV to be accurate perhaps should say that Cuba has a bad democracy. BruceHallman 15:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Scott, I can read Encyclopedia Britannica, including both the paper and the online version, for free in my local public library. BruceHallman 20:03, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm using other encyclopaedias as examples of method within a talk page, not as sources for the article, Scott.-- Zleitzen 16:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I can't read the whole thing either. I'm just giving examples of how encyclopedic standards are applied. -- Zleitzen 16:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Zleitzen and Sgrayban, you guys can drop the argument about Britannica. Zleitzen is free to cite it because Wikipedia editors have always been free to cite books and non-free access websites. At the same time, Zleitzen's citation of Britannica is irrelvant for reasons I stated above. 172 | Talk 16:33, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Ummm, 172 Right now I'm trying to get a vote on something different here and would like to get just one thing agreed on so we can move on. 3 disputes right now and all I'm looking for is one to get resolved and we are close to it. -- Scott Grayban 16:38, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your editing efforts I can see that you spent a lot of time and thought which I appreciate. Though regretfully, what you wrote includes too much point of view and too little citation and too much original research. So, I must add a neutrality dispute box to the section. Perhaps it would make sense to move it to a sandbox to hash out the differences? I am not arguing that the previous Human Rights section is better or should be reverted as it had many problems too.
There is so much in your section that quickly listing all the specifics of my dispute is not possible. However, starting with the first sentence, you wrote "...the rights of the individual..." as if we all agree what the rights of the individual should be. In reality your concept is ethnocentric, similar to the systemic bias problem that pervades Wikipedia. In the second sentence you write of "the states political aims" as if there is no validity to the concept of ".socialist state of workers, organized with all and for the good of all... " Again, ethnocentric, you are bringing a Free Market capitalistic value belief system towards the forming the basis of your condemnation of a social system that deliberately eschews capitalism.
Can we at least agree that the context of their human rights falls within the context of a socialist society, and that applying capitalistic values on that system is a logical falacy? BruceHallman 16:12, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
...you are bringing a Free Market capitalistic value belief system towards the forming the basis of your condemnation of a social system that deliberately eschews capitalism. BruceHallman, you're way off. Virtually the entire section can be referenced by citing the Cuban constitution itself. Cuba is a one-party state in which the state is constitutionally subordinate to the Communist Party, and the government restricts freedom of speech, association, assembly, press, and movement outside the control of the party. Adam Carr's section elaborates on this fact in a straightforward and factual manner. 172 | Talk 16:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I would like a vote posted in this section and please only sign with a support or oppose. No need for anything else to be posted.
The vote is for the use of "Cuba is a Socialist Republic , where other political parties are allowed to participate but the Communist Party of Cuba has the majority of seat's and vote's." for the article.
Support -- Scott Grayban 16:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC) Support BruceHallman 20:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I am going to ignore this poll. I encourage other users to ignore it as well. Adam Carr has already expended enough energy settling this matter. This matter no longer needs to be discussed. 172 | Talk 16:49, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Hello all -- I am here as part of the medcabal to help us come to a solution to part of the article conflict.
I am somewhat familiar with the kind of dispute that is going on. However, the talk page here is huge, and before joining in I wanted to check to see if people wanted me here. Please let me know what the consensus is, i.e., do you want a third party to come in and help out, or are discussions moving along well without me? [38] If the former, what is the main locus of the dispute?
Sdedeo ( tips) 20:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, thanks. Is there a particular point in the article where people are battling? Can you maybe provide a diff? In the end we will need to include all POVs, of course, following WP:NPOV (which also means that superminority POVs are given less weight and prominence.) Perhaps putting in some sources and in general sourcing POVs (e.g., "According to Amnesty International..." "According to the US State Department..." "According to the Cuban government...") will help resolve things? Sdedeo ( tips) 20:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure we can find sources to discuss what to call Cuba's political system. Can you provide sources that state that Cuba is a democracy? And sources that dispute that? Sdedeo ( tips) 20:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, now we need some folks to weigh in with sources that declare Cuba is not a democracy. Sdedeo ( tips) 21:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone spot the out-country-out? Adam 01:24, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Anyone realize this yet or not that there are only 3 words that is making this article POV ? Communist, Socialist, and Democracy. The same 3 words that comminusts and socialist use in there anti-american propaganda and the same 3 words used in American propaganda. Have we not learned anything at all? Adam is bent on labeling Cuba as a communist state just like the US. Government does. Cuba use the samething in order to provoke hate towards the US. See anything wrong at all ? No one will be happy until 1 is dead and the other wins. Samething for the opposite countries. -- Scott Grayban 02:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Considering recent edits of material I wrote, I am trying to understand our group edit policy. When one encounters something written in the article that has a 'black' point of view, and you feel it should have a 'white' point of view, what is our policy? 1) Edit to be 'white'. 2) Edit it to be 'grey', even when you personally believe 'white' is true. 3) Edit it to include both 'white' and 'black'. Or, is there some other policy which I don't understand?
Considering that we are trying to collaborate on the editing of the same article which none of us own, I hope that we can come to an understanding of how to mutually edit items where one see's white and the other see's black.
Could you please explain your neutrality policy?
Me first. I believe we should try #2, and if it fails, try #3. #1 is to be avoided, but around here, #1 causes revert wars, which frankly appear uncivil. Does anybody really believe that achieving neutrality is possible by just having a quicker finger to click a revert? BruceHallman 13:37, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I wrote that Cuba is a one-party state ruled by the Communist Party and its leader Castro, that no other parties are permitted, and that therefore Cuba does not mean any meaninfgul definition of a democracy. I could "verify" these statements with a list of references as long as the Cuban Constitution. Do you really want me to? It seems to me that it is up to those who want to argue the contrary position to do the "verifying." If I write that the earth goes round the sun, a statement these days generally accepted to be true, it is up to those who want to argue that the sun goes round the earth to provide some evidence. Adam 14:08, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Michael, all persons not endorsed for a position by the Communist party cannot run. The Communist Party, which is not a democratic entity, not the people voting in elections, decides who holds political power - and Castro control the Communist party in Cuba. In order to be called a democracy, there must be some way for the people in general to express their beliefs - and more importantly, control who holds office. Yet, Cuba does not hold elections where individuals not endorced by the Communists can run, futhermore, political speech against the Communist party or the government is illegal. I am more than willing to use euphamisms (spelling) for the activities of the Communists, but to call it "democracy" bold faced lie that meets virtually no defintion of democracy.
The answers to your questions are (1) yes, (2) no. Adam 15:21, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Adam, many people would argue that the United States is a democracy in name only and not in practice (particularily in comparison to many political systems around the world), I wouldn't agree with reading that in the piece on the US. It would be a clear breach of POV. -- Zleitzen 16:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Demos - people, Craci - rule by. There must be an election in which the people can choose their representatives in order to be a democracy. That is the central detail. The US has this option - whether you like the outcome of said democracy or not. The Cubas do not - whether you like the outcome of their communist system or not. ()147.126.46.146
You could outlaw political parties entirely, so long as THE PEOPLE could pick their representatives - but if you prevent anyone not endorsed by a 1 organization than the people cannot choose a leader. In capitalist nations, incidentally, economic control is declined by the government and the people. The US could decide to run a command economy; there is currently nothing in our constitution to prevent it. The problem your people seem to have is that so few people are willing to vote in favor of such an economy and therefore government control is limited. Democratic process is the problem in Cuba, and it is entirely different from the whether or not you favor the result. I happen to like Chile post-Allende, but I would never deny that it was ruled by a dictator, whatever the democratic pretensions or however much I dislike Allende - extend the same courtesy to the Cubans and Castro. The Cuban people CANNOT vote for a person not ENDORSED by the Communist party - this prevents any view but that which is supported by the Communist party from being represented in government. ()
In discussing democracy in Cuba, it is important to look beyond elections. Yes, elections are generally a part of a democracy - and Cuba does have them; their efficacy in promoting democratic participation in government MUST be discussed. However, Cuba also has alternative democratic structures in place that are designed to allow people to participate in the functioning of government - workplace councils, mass organizations (ANAP, CTC), and others. Just like the elections, the efficacy of these organizations is entirely debatable. Certainly, they have some effect, as they give people a chance to comment on proposed legislation, etc. To what degree the input of 'the people' is incorporated into that legislation is another matter entirely. I am spending my wikipedia time on Cuba's agricultural sector right now, so I'm not going to work on the democracy in Cuba stuff at this point. I will certainly contribute at a later date. Interested persons should read "People's Power" by Peter Roman. It is a well-written, excellently researched book that delves into the processes of democracy in Cuba. **Consider, too, that a democratic government with three branches (executive, legislative, and judicial) would have democratic participation in all three branches. One must not leave out the role of the public in the judiciary (specifically, the role of lay judges.)** takethemud 23:33, 12 April 2006 (UTC)takethemud
A few days ago I tried to edit some opposing point of view into this Human Rights section, but got "reverted". Could we please now work out a compromise to bring some neutrality to this section?
The lead sentence describes human rights abuses which the citation dates back to 1967. I tried to include this fact, that these accusations date to 1967, but that was edited away.
Shouldn't a NPOV shown the current state of Human Rights in Cuba at the top of the section instead of undated, yet 40 year old, accusations? BruceHallman 16:35, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
However, remember that Nestor Kirchner (president of Argentina) said that he had seen nothing in Cuba to say they were abusing human rights.
Could we please stop this revert war? Is there no compromise?
User:147.126.46.146 please explain your most recent revert. BruceHallman 16:45, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I have generally restored what was there prior to deletion and replacement with what often amounts to propaganda or something close to it. I have, and will continue, to LEAVE IN statements supporting Castro's government, but I have no intention of watching criticism either outright deleted, or simply replaced by sympathetic revisionist statements. The continual removal of UN allegations, as well as the deletion of research (and the research quoted is but the very tip of the iceberg) into Cuban support for communist militism in South America and Africa amounts to a calculated attempt to whitewash history. Deleting these statements, or just as often modifying them so as not to inform is absurd behavior to defend. ()
Bruce I had a segment on that but it was deleted long ago, I protested and was banned. El Jigue 4-10-06
I've changed the government to Communist single-party state; as far as I can tell, the criticisms against that appelation was being a "mouthful". If it is a mouthful, it is certainly less a mouthful than applying two terms in the name of WP:NPOV. -- Bletch 23:04, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
After reading Adam's commentary and reviewing Republic, I withdraw my claim that toleration of opposition is a requirement to be considered a Republic. That said, if Republic is a virtual synonym for "non-Monarchy" (yes I understand that is an oversimplifaction), then it should be avoided for its over-broadness alone. I am fine with either Communist state, Communist single-party state, or Single party state. --Bletch 17:29, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Considering your withdrawal, please summarize why the Republic of Cuba is not a Republic, I cannot say I understand the reasoning of your POV. BruceHallman 18:08, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Adam: That part seems understandable in the model I use which equates communism with a rigid religion. However, what I cannot grasp the rationale nor understand the reason why somethings e.g. The Cayman Trench offends some people unless of course they have funds in Cayman bank accounts or they object to Plate Tectonics El Jigue 4-10-06
Indeed. I don't see what isn't neutral about "Communist state" - Castro has made no secret of the fact that he and his nation are communist. A "communist state" by nature is single party - otherwise it would not fit the definition. ()
Have added tag on the history section. I believe there are a large parts that are un-encyclopedic and POV. Please see mediation cabal [7] which is in session on this matter. -- Zleitzen 23:47, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I think that too much of the history section is un-encyclopedic, uncited and POV, El Jigue. But I would rather go through the collaboration process with experienced editors to overhaul this article than pick individual problems from it's present form. But here are some examples I've noticed.
The article mentions the minor involvement in Congo and not the major involvement Angola etc. I could go on, but I'd rather start a process of more dramatic overhaul.-- Zleitzen 00:56, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
There used to be a referance to Angola... some one will need to put it back in. The whitewashers are awfully persistant. ()
Z There used to be a section to which I contributed heavily, that dealt with these and almost every other conflict that Castro got himself involved with. But it was deleted, just as Comandante just deleted the fact that Antonio Perez Jimenez the source for data on landholdings was a comandante (lower case) in Castro's forces in the mountains. Of course Perez Jimenez did not do any fighting that was left to the real fighters and idiots like me who followed them. El Jigue 4-11-06
There are continual deletes of seemingly objective data, such as references to the contribution of plate tectonics to the formation of the Island, the role of the Chinese in the Cuban Wars of Independence, or the ethnic contribution of the Taínos, as clearly revealed by DNA studies, to ethnic composition of the Cuban population. Apparently there are some dumb humanities majors who do not think in scientific terms. El Jigue 4-11-06
I have restored a reasonably truthful version. I am happy to debate this, but automatic reversion to the previous pack of lies is unacceptable and will result in an edit war. I agree by the way that history section needs a major rewrite. It is far too long for this article when we also have History of Cuba, as well as being badly written and full of tendentious statements. Adam 01:25, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
There are some major problems with the newest edit. Cuba is not a one-party state. First of all, it is biased. Second, it is false. People of the opposition have also been elected by the people, into the National Assembly, just like all the other candidates. Pablo Odén and Raúl Suárez are members of Cuban Council of Churches, a Cuban christian political party, and they're in the national assembly. Raúl Suárez is also a minister in the baptist church.
The word "ruler" (regarding Fidel) is biased, especially when people outside Cuba are split wether Cuba is democratic or not. "facade of parliamentary government" is also terribly biased. "Only candidates who are members of or approved by the Communist Party are allowed to participate" is entirely false. The controversial "Fidel Castro, exercises direct personal control over the government" is not backed up by any kind of evidence. Another very controversial claim "The real basis for Castro's power is his position as First Secretary of the Communist Party of Cuba." is false. Again, Cuba's politics is not based on the Communist Party of Cuba. "The Communist Party retains power, through its control of the armed forces and police" is also TERRIBLY biased. And the last, but not the least biased claim "exercised by Castro's most trusted lieutenant, his bother and official sucessor Raul Castro." is reason for my edit here at talk. There is more bias in that section.
Adam Carr, please explain your edit of 15:16, 10 April 2006 where you removed external links to the Cuban Constitution. This edit appears to be an egregious POV, and appears to not meet WP:NPOV policy. I may simply be misunderstanding you, though the comment you wrote "(i can see the Communist Party of Wikipedia is well-entrenched at this article, which i guess is not surprising. If u want an edit war on this subject, comrade, u will get one)" leaves little room for doubt, would you please explain your edit? BruceHallman 04:02, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I did not intend to remove links to the Constitution. I intended to re-instate my truthful version of the Government and politics section. My POV is clear and open - this article should tell the truth about Cuba, which is that it is a communist dictatorship (not that I have used that expression). I realise this is hard for all you old lefties who continue to worship Fidel, but sooner or later you will have to face up to this. Adam 04:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
As I said earlier, I am not interested in compromises between truth and falsehood. All dictators claim that their people love them, so much so that there is no need for elections to demonstrate how much they love the Great Leader, and all dictators can find gullible fools willing to testify from the safety and comfort of their homselands how wonderful the Great Leader and how everybody they met during their visit told them so, despite the curious fact that 47 years after the Glorious Revolution they are all still dirt poor. Whether the Communist Party of Wikipedia likes it or not, this article will be got into shape eventually. Resistance is futile. Adam 11:23, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
No-one supposes that Castro rules Cuba all by himself - no dictator has ever done that. What the term "dictator" means is that he is the head of a dictatorial regime, one built by and around his personal authority, which his subordinates accept either out of conviction or self-interest. A dictatorial regime is one that tolerates no opposition and uses the power of the state without legal restraint against those who try to oppose it. That is how Hitler, Stalin, Peron and Batista ruled, and it is how Castro rules. I don't deny that he has a measure of popular support - as did all the above-mentioned dictators. Whether he has majority support is something that only a free and contested election could determine. In the meantime, like all dictators, he fears opposition and suppresses it by force. If Cuba is such an earthly paradise, with all that free health care and all, why do 2,000 Cubans a year risk their lives (and frequently lose them) trying to escape from it? Adam 13:02, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Uh, not really. Almost every Cuban exile who lived in Cuba I have ever spoke to in Miami started talking first about "las communistas" and political oppression. I hardly ever have heard anything about economic conditions except by way of unfavorable comparisons to Batista or occasionally the plight of relatives. Incidentally, I restored the link to the Cuban constitution. It belongs in an encyclopedia article, although I doubt that it is followed. ()
It's really rather counterproductive, not to mention inappropriate, to register personal views speculating on why Cuba is poor, or "if Cuba is such an earthly paradise why do Cubans attempt to escape" etc. See WP:NOT if in any doubt. There's any number of other spaces, blogs, etc where you can opine ad nauseam about this or any other topic; kindly use these and not wikipedia. -- Zleitzen 14:18, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Z: There are many scholarly economic analyses of why Cuba is poor now and was relatively (to other countries in the region) prosperous before Castro. Take for instance the yearly volumes of the Association for the Study of the Cuban Economy. As to the present Cuban constitution, it is just one of a series of similar documents produced by the present regime, it is only followed when it is convenient to the Castro government. The last real Cuban Constitution is the mildly left wing 1940 document, which at least attempted a free concensus. As to opinion, history is rooted in a compedium first hand witness reports. Yet. there are also seemingly endless articles and books analyzed third, fourth and nth by "historians" who do not know details of Cuban history. Oh BTW what are your credentials to do such a major revision. I would hate to see "you do" yet another whitewash and gross over simplification. El Jigue 4-11-06.
The debate back and forth above is interesting but off topic. What concerns me is that several people appear to be advocating and exercising editorial policy contrary to Wikipedia policy. I believe that ultimately this will cause our failure to create an encylopedic article about Cuba. I ask these people to change their actions to comply with Wikipedia policy or if we cannot agree about group policy, mediation and enaction of a mediated decision. BruceHallman 14:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Of course I do not believe that my opinion should override all others, that is why I am asking for mediation and enaction of a mediated decision. We either can agree to a common set of rules and behaviours, or descend into never ending edit wars. I propose we adhere to Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines and that after due process, we ban and block those who refuse to do so. BruceHallman 15:16, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
It is always tempting to try to silence those who oppose our views; however seems most wise not to. One way to restrain myself is to remember that my objective here is merely to develop my knowledge and prepare background for my book of memories snd to better understand the mechanisms, processes, stengths and weaknesses of Castro propaganda. My book will be "Coming soon to a bookstore near you." (:>) Any educational effect on others is merely an extra benefit. Another matter that might well be raised is length, an electronic encyclopedia does not have the size limitations that printed volumes do. The very word encyclopedia at leasts in its origins in pre-Revolutionary France suggests that it is a compendium of all knowledge, while this is seemingly impossible.... thus an electronic version should not be expected to fit a Victorian type format or length El Jigue 4-10-06
With hopes of ending the edit war over "Government Type", I propose that we conduct a straw poll as follows:
---Begin straw poll rules---
The poll to start 00:00, 19 April 2006 (UTC), and ends exactly one week after the start. A first ballot winner requires more than 50% of the votes. Should none of the options receive more than 50%, a second straw poll shall begin immediately be conducted with a duration of exactly one week between the top three candidates, with a second ballot winner being the choice with the most votes. Anonymous votes are not allowed. One vote per registered Wikipedia user is allowed. With hopes of controlling sock puppets, no votes allowed by users not registered as of 00:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC) Sign your vote with four tildes. You are allowed to change your vote up until the end of election deadline.
---End straw poll rules---
---Begin draft of straw poll---
What is the group consensus of the most neutral description of Government Type for Cuba?
1.Communist State:
2.Communist state:
3.Communist Republic:
4.Democratic Republic:
5.One Party State:
6.Socialist Republic:
7.Republic: Adam 03:15, 12 April 2006 (UTC) (there are much more important things to worry about),
8. Remove 'goverment type' from the Country Box:
9. Show both 'Communist State' and 'Socialist Republic':
10. Socialist State:
---End draft of straw poll---
---Begin discussion of straw poll---
We can have an open discussion of the structure of the straw poll, above is just an idea as a start, please give your opinions. BruceHallman 00:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Communist State or Communist state would be the most accurate - all others are either misleading (Democratic Republic), outright wrong (Socialist Republic) or uninformative (One Party state, Communist Republic). ()
Perhaps there should be an option to remove the Government Type altogether to avoid future edit wars? -- Zleitzen 01:07, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
This is a silly argument. The infobox should just describe Cuba as a republic, since that is clearly the outward form of its government - it has a president and not a king. The debate on the realities of government in Cuba should take place in the "Government and politics" section. "Communist state", "socialist republic" etc are inherently loaded terms and should not be used in the infobox. Adam 04:30, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
If Socialist Republic is good enough for the Encyclopædia Britannica, I would propose that it is also the best option here [9]-- Zleitzen 01:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
.“…I favor calling it 'Socialist' simply because that is what they call it themselves, and that the word Communist, while descriptive of the 'one party', also carries purjorative (sic) connotations dating from the Cold War period in the USA. BruceHallman 13:36, 12 April 2006 (UTC)”
Oh wow! A description of the reality of a one party system in Cuba is called “purjorative (sic).” Pejorative would be not to call Cuba’s “one party system.” What is next banning people from Wikipedia for “desacato” as in Cuba, for insulting Castro and the Cuban government. El Jigue 4-12-06
The problem is that Castro is a self declaered Communist and repudiated the more limited forms of socialism advocated by some of his earlier allies. He is a communist, not a socialist. The Cuban economy is communist in every sense of the word. I realize that many people don't like communists, but this would be like not calling Kennedy a democrat because lots of people don't like democrats. ()
Can we begin work to resolve the disputed portions?
This part from the History Section lacks in neutrality, can we work out some more neutral wording"
"The new revolutionary regime adopted successive "land reforms" and eventually confiscated almost all private property. At first, Castro was reluctant to discuss his plans for the future, but eventually he declared himself a communist, and with the backing of Che Guevara, explained that he was trying to build socialism in Cuba, focusing on government provided health care and public education, and began close political and economic relations with the Soviet Union and to a lesser extent with China. "
perhaps:
"The new revolutionary government adopted successive land reforms and eventually nationalized almost all private property. At first, Castro was reluctant to discuss his plans for the future citation needed, but eventually (cite the dates) he declared himself a communist, and with the backing of Che Guevara, declared the goal of socialism for Cuba, focusing on government provided health care and public education, and began close political and economic relations with the Soviet Union and to a lesser extent with China. BruceHallman 14:53, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Bruce it let me be brutally frank, you obviously have not read the scholarly works cited in the Cuba/Printed sources section especially Thomas 1998, let alone the soon to be published de la Cova 2006. What is happening is "inconvenient" citations are removed or hidden apparently by unconditional supporters of Castro e.g. in Cuba/Printed sources then these mendacious characters make spurious demands for deleted references and "NPOV" essays that fit their puerile illusions. Come back when you have read the Moncada section by Thomas, until then it would help your credibility to be far more discrete with your remarks than at present. El Jigue 4-10-06
Pennelope Goodfriend wrote:
I hope the WP article doesn't try to paint Cuba as a socialist utopia, with prosperity and excellent free medical care. Because if it were, people would be crazy to risk their lives to leave it. (Or does this mean I'm "taking sides"?) -- Uncle Ed 19:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Bruce. What do you base your ideas on Cuba? What you are asking is to repudiate all but official Cuban government reports. Cubans on the Island have had "state captialism" forced on them. and they don't like it. For instance, in the mountains of Oriente where there are still some private growers of coffee. They must fill a quota, if the quota is not filled they must pay ten fold the price of the unfulfilled part of the quota to the government. To enforce this every crop year the Raul Castro's forces (he is in control there, hanging out in luxury at a confiscated residence near Guisa) set up road blocks to "capture" this illegal coffee. El Jigue 4-12-06
Bruce let me be brutally frank, you obviously have not read the scholarly works cited in the Cuba/Printed sources section especially Thomas 1998, let alone the soon to be published de la Cova 2006. What is happening is "inconvenient" citations are removed or hidden apparently by unconditional supporters of Castro (as was Cuba/Printed sources) then these mendacious characters make spurious demands for deleted references and "NPOV" essays that fit their puerile illusions. Come back when you have read the Moncada section by Thomas, until then it would help your credibility to be far more discrete with your remarks than at present. El Jigue 4-10-06
Comandante, can we discuss your edits as part of a collaborative process? BruceHallman 21:43, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Sure. I personally think that Bletch's edits are extremely POV and bias. For one thing, why does Cuba's current political status need to be mentioned in the opening paragraph. That should just be left to geography. Secondly, calling terrorists who blow up airliners "freedom fighters" is absurd and has no place in this article. Just look at some of the things he says in his version: "After years of research on the topic, and after the acquittals of several trials on those accused, there is a strong suspicion that the attack was self-inflicted to be used as a propaganda tool against the United States and to discredit Cuban freedom-fighters." Strong suspicion by who? He doesn't even bother to provide a link. Comandante 22:06, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I think there used to be a link to an academic journal after that that was edited out... someone needs to find it and put it back in. ()
If Socialist Republic is good enough for the Encyclopædia Britannica, I would propose that it is also the best option here [10]-- Zleitzen 01:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
How about we just keep politics out of the opening paragraph alltogether? The rest of the article is pretty much completely devoted to that. Comandante 01:22, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Commandante you have reverted my work on the education of Cuba without justification. Please explain this? -- Zleitzen 01:26, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Please explain where I have deleted good changes?-- Zleitzen 01:40, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
On the note of Patria y Libertad translated to English is "Patriot and Liberty" and it should reflect that. -- Scott Grayban 01:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Commandante, you have now removed my paragraph on "What happens after Castro?" several times without any explanation. If you feel that this paragraph does not belong in the article, please explain why; otherwise, please stop removing it. Thanks. Kwertii 02:00, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm attempting to readd the info that has been lost in Comandante's reverts; the problem is that I cannot figure out what precisely he objects to; when looking at his diffs, I see info on geography, formatting and organizational reverts that seem to get caught up in and thrown out with the bath water, and so far the two things that he has specifically referred to on talk have been addressed, yet he continued in reverting. There seems to be consensus that the "History of Cuba" section is oversized. I've also changed the comment about Cuba being the only "Communist state" in the hemisphere to say "...governed by a Communist party". If there is perceived bias by the term Communist state, surely qualifying it further to sidestep the term should be acceptable to all. -- Bletch 10:09, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Fair points Bruce. What would you propose for the opening paragraph?-- Zleitzen 15:04, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
That's acceptable to me also. -- Zleitzen 15:31, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I have created a page for a Cuba Portal. See Portal:Cuba. It is my hope it will serve as a gateway to those interested in learning about Cuba, and also as the backbone of Cuba-related articles here on Wikipedia, organizing them into a coherent, easy to navigate group of articles. I hope all persons interested in Cuba assist in its construction. takethemud 23:55, 12 April 2006 (UTC)takethemud
I would like to know why "communist" keeps being replaced with socialist, why the link to the cuban constitution keeps disappearing, why the human rights section keeps being truncated and why the pre-Castro economic statistics keep being removed. Please explain your whitewashing attempt. ()
() You removed my edits on education in Cuba. Please explain why? -- Zleitzen 15:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, you can check Comandate's IP, correct? Cuba IS a communists state - it is NOT merely socialist - the term socialist is inaccurate and little more that an attempt at covering up the current state. I have tried to retain new additions when reverting from attempted whitewashing. Which edits on education are you talking about? As long as we are on education, why do the comments about the earliest universities in Cuba and the statistics about the current educational levels keep disappearing? Part of my reverts has restored this information, which seems to be disappearing. "Broadscale reverts" have occured because major edits have removed valid information, which has been replaced with non-information (brief statements lacking any facts or statistics in the place of the ones removed) or nothing at all. Major removals like this are really not at all acceptable - I see no reason why lots of information should keep disappearing and I see no reason current educational data and historical referances should not be retained. ()
- THESE KEEP BEING REMOVED FOR UNKNOWN REASONS. EXPLAIN PLEASE. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM REMOVING IN THE FUTURE. ()
Likewise with whitewashing the control of Cuba by the communist party and Castro personally - replacing "one Party" wish "soviergn socialist" is nothing but pure whitewashing.
The reason is I refer to it as white-washing is that it is replacing the term "One party" with a non-critical term - they are essentially trying to remove referances to Cuba being a one-party state by replacing it with other comments. There is NO reason that the single party government is not worthy of being noted and I am really appalled that people keep trying to edit it out because they don't want to see it. Zleitzen, if it need to we reworded, then reword it, don't just throw out entire studies and paragraphs of data because you don't like semantics, just fix the grammer (which I didn't even see anything wrong with) or whatever. Everyone (or most everyone) is aware that Cuba is an independant nation... repeatedly noting its "soveriegn" status doesn't really tell us anything... I don't care if it is noted somewhere that Cuba is independant, but not at the cost of REPLACING facts like "single party" ( RookZERO 19:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)).
By my works ye shall know me. Adam 18:11, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I think it is a great idea to edit down the length of this article. It would be good to start "diverting" some of the text to subarticles - I've already done some of this. Alot of times, I just copied and pasted text from this article into a new sub-article; this way we can retain all the text in a subarticle and remove all but the most relevant text from the "Cuba" article. That would make this article more readable and allow a greater amount of depth to be covered in subarticles. The History of Cuba article would be a great place to put alot of stuff from the history section, for example. I also created a Cuba portal that could use everybody's input. takethemud 18:42, 13 April 2006 (UTC)takethemud
Hi. I have had an account for awhile... I'll stay signed in if it matters... which it really shouldn't. I guess it might be a good idea to move the Cuban Culture section over to the article of that name and just have a link instead of the information here. The problem with NPOV is that certain individuals don't like to follow the reality (not really POV) of the self-declared status of Cuba (as a Communist State) and keep deleting or modifying the quotes or links that to things like the Cuban constitution or Castro's speeches that support that statement in the hope of making the issue reflect more positively on the current Cuban regime. (
RookZERO
19:51, 13 April 2006 (UTC))
How about both?
I think the form of government is important enough to go somewhere in the intro.
I also realize that for many decades Communists have quibbled about terminology: "the free world ain't free", etc.
One of the good things about Wikipedia is that is brings clarity to every topic. So if any particular group of advocates intentionally uses obscure jargon to hide their real (and sinister) meaning, we need not cooperate with that. It's not taking sides against someone's point of view to clarify what their POV is.
Cuba is about Castro being in control, and imposing a socialist economy on the people, whethere they like it or not. It's not a democracy, i.e., not a "republic" in the usual sense of the word. It's a dictatorship (see Totalitarianism).
By "Communist", writers in the West generally mean rule by a Communist Party or "workers party" having a strong commitment to "Communist philosophy" (see Marxism-Leninism).
Any quibbles that Cuba isn't "Communist" can be explained in this light:
Let's not play word games; let's just write as objectivel and fairly and accurately as we can. -- Uncle Ed 17:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
To Bruce: sometimes the best way to begin a collaboration is to announce frankly one's own beliefs. I've been devotedly anti-communist since my youth.
To Zleitzen: your wording is definitely better than mine. Let's wait a bit, then if no objections arise ... go for it! -- Uncle Ed 19:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
All due respect to you all, Castro declares himself a Communist (NOT a socialist) and rejected the "comprimised socialism" and "revisionist socialism" and "incomplete communism" (His words) of some of his early allies. Socialism is NOT the same as communism. Socialist economies are NOT AT ALL the same as communist ones. I don't know how this still needs to be debated. For crying out loud... why are people trying to use terms that Castro himself, and the COMMUNIST party themselves disagree with? The term "socialist republic" is simply wrong as a point of fact, the term "socialist" applied the economy is simply a bold-faced lie. I really cannot believe that there is anyone so crazy that this even needs to be debated. ()
Unfortunately we cannot use my phrase. Because it comes from The Encyclopedia of the Nations" [20]. Also see my comments from Encyclopedia Britannica and check the definition of Cuba as a Socialist Republic there. () I suggest you open a debate with those two institutions about their "craziness". -- Zleitzen 20:11, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I just received the following
"
This is your last warning. The next time you vandalize a page, as you did to Cuba, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Scott Grayban 18:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)"
I have asked Sgrayban as to nature of my alleged "Vandalism" but have not yet received an answer. El Jigue 4-10-06
147.126.46.145, while I can appreciate your intentions, your revert removed my good faith attempt to bring neutrality to the " Cuba is the only Communist state in the Western hemisphere and is now the only state in the hemisphere which is not a democracy." sentence, through discussion and collaboration. Are you willing to discuss this sentence? Can you propose alternate compromise, more NPOV wording? Your unexplained revert appears to not be collaborative and has the effect of an edit war. BruceHallman 19:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Go ahead and put it back in. I have painted with a rather broad brush to remove certain attempts at removing critical information... I'm sorry if I didn't retain or restore your sentance. I don't have any objection to the wording of that statement and won't object to you puting that statement back in. I'm trying to keep other stuff from getting deleted out.
Perusal of the bibliography of papers on Cuban educational progress appears to suggest that such studies derive their original data e.g. [21] exclusively from Cuban government sources. El Jigue 4-13-06
Bruce your point of view could be considered pseudo Albiginese in that good and evil are found equivalent. In this concept of yours Castro's repressive society where dissent is punished is found equivalent to modern democracies where all data may be challenged. Thus the data from the Cuban government is viewed equally to the compendium of view points in the democratic market place of ideas. Thus NPOV by this definition of necessity pseudo Albiginese. El Jigue 4-13-04
Please explain your edits to the education section, and how they improve the article. Why are there now 2 paragraphs detailing the same study. Why are there now 2 sentences which say all "students regardless of age and gender wear school uniforms". Please bear in mind that I have tried to rework this section 4 times because of these repeated edits. -- Zleitzen 20:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
If it wasn't you who did this, El Jigue then I suggest you register and use 1 name to avoid future confusions which may lead to blocks or bans. -- Zleitzen 21:07, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Listen up all you great editors, Comandante has gotten a 24 hour ban for revert warring on the article so I would make the best of that time and get this article in shape. There are alot of POV still that need attention. I'd start editing like mad. I know there are few here that are great at writing and I hope you make the most of this time. -- Scott Grayban 13:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
People should argue less and edit more, then this page wouldn't fill up so quickly. Adam 03:30, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Users should respect and adhere to Wikipedia policies and guidelines first and foremost, Adam. (see mediation on this matter). -- Zleitzen 13:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Scott, you removed comments relevant to the discussion, not just the personal attack of the user below. Your comments above do not assume good faith. I repeat the above, Users should respect and adhere to Wikipedia policies and guidelines first and foremost.
-- Zleitzen 15:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Let see today:
was deleted. Busy Busy Busy Go guys go! By the time you have finished, there will be nothing left of balance in this section. Only praise to the gods of marxist ideology. xe xe El Jigue 4-13-05
Bletch, You wrote that Cuba is not a democracy, would you please provide a citation per WP:V. BruceHallman 04:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
He doesn't need to. A democracy is a country in which the people are able to choose their government through free elections. Cuban law forbids any political party other than the Communist Party. Therefore there can be no free elections, therefore Cuba is not a democracy. QED. Adam 04:48, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Adam they are going to trundle out that old chestnut of Arnold August, the Canadian communist who is a tourist guide in Havana. Xe xe El Jigue 4-13-06
Given that the article itself states that the Communist Party is the sole legal political entity, that is enough to justify the comment about Cuba not being a democracy. -- Bletch 12:02, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Here are some materials on the 1998 Cuban "elections", from this source:
January 11: provincial and national assemblies election
August 1999: "The role and work of the candidacy commissions towards the January 11, 1998 elections to the national and provincial assemblies" (pages 299-317). "The electoral campaign for the national assembly and the provincial assemblies, November 29-January 10" (pages 317-354). "The January 11, 1998 elections" (pages 354-364). In this election there are two ballots, one "is to vote for the deputies to the National Assembly, and the other one is for the election of delegates to the provincial assembly in which the vote takes place" (page 354). "1998 election results for the National Assembly" (page 363). Gives by province the percent of valid votes, percent of blank ballots, and percent of spoiled ballots.
Azicri 2000: "The regime asked for a unified vote in the 1998 parliamentary elections for 601 delegates to the National Assembly and 1,192 deputies to the Provincial Organs of People's Power. The elections were also rated as a national referendum on the nation's socialist system. As in 1993, the regime claimed electoral victory. Almost all (98.35 percent) of the 8 million plus registered voters went to the polls. Ninety-five percent of the 7,534,008 votes cast were valid, but 130,227 (1.64 percent) were void and 266,379 (.3.36 percent) were blank-5 percent of the total ballots signified a lower negative vote than in 1993" (page 119). Gives additional statistics. "In the 1998 National Assembly there were 166 women (27.6%) and 435 men (72.3%), for a total membership of 601" (page 313). Describes their "social composition."
Chronicle of parliamentary elections and developments 32 1999: Describes the purpose of the elections, the electoral system, the background and outcome of the elections, and statistics (pages 57-59). "According to the Electoral Law, there is one Deputy for every 20,000 inhabitants or fraction above 10,000 in each of the country's 169 municipalities" (page 57). "The 1998 parliamentary elections were held simultaneously with polling for 1,192 representatives to the country's 14 provincial assemblies. For the expanded National Assembly's 601 seats (up from 589), an identical number of candidatures were finally approved, after screening, by the National Candidature Commission. While not all were members of the ruling and sole political organization - the Communist Party of Cuba - they backed the policies of the Government" (page 58). Statistics include "results of the elections," "distribution of seats according to category," "distribution of seats according to sex," and "distribution of seats according to age" (page 59).
Country report. Cuba, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Puerto Rico 1997, 3: "Although the conduct of the secret ballot in the national elections is scrupulously fair, voters only have one candidate. The results will show the number of spoilt papers and abstentions, which provides a barometer of popular support for the government. After seven years of severe economic hardship, the government is likely to have to admit a diminuition of support" (page 12).
Country report. Cuba, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Puerto Rico 1998, 1: "The results of the January elections have been cited by the government as a popular endorsement. There continues to be a firm rejection of any suggestion of the legalisation of opposition political parties. However, such rigidity contrasts with the clear increase in the space granted for religious activities, and a gradual transformation of economic, social and political culture arising from economic adjustment" (page 7). "Elections were held for the national and municipal [should say provincial] assemblies on January 11th, following unprecedented electioneering by the government. The vote is an endorsement of pre-selected candidates rather than a choice between rivals. Half of the candidates are nominated at public meetings before gaining approval from electoral committees, while the other half are nominated by official mass organisations (such as trade unions, farmers organisations and students unions). A turnout of 98.4% of registered voters was reported. Of the total votes, 5% of ballot papers were left blank or spoiled. The sum of abstentions, spoiled and blank votes was therefore only 6.5% of the total electorate. A further 5.6% chose to vote for some of the candidates (a 'selective vote') rather than endorsing all of them on a slate (a 'united vote'), as called for in the election campaign. Subtracting all the possible choices which might be interpreted as rejection of the government, 88.2% of the electorate were reported to have obediently opted for the united vote" (page 10). "The government claims that the elections represent a show of popular support, but its critics have attributed the result instead to fear or apathy on the part of those who do not support the government. They suspect that the result may reflect electoral engineering (in constituencies known to have a high proportion of voters who are more inclined to express dissatisfaction by registering blank or spoiled votes, the candidates offered tend to be highly respected local figures not associated closely with the government), the lack of independent supervision of the count or the barrage of propaganda. They also point out that the system of selection of candidates effectively excludes any truly independent voices" (page 11).
Keesing's record of world events January 1998: "The second direct election of deputies to the enlarged National Assembly of People's Power (ANPP), the Cuban unicameral legislature, was held on Jan. 11. Only candidates nominated by the PCC were permitted to contest the election. Figures issued by the National Electoral Commission showed that all 601 candidates for the 601 posts had obtained the necessary 50 per cent of the votes to be elected. The turnout amongst the 8 million registered voters was officially put at 98.35 per cent. Elections were also held on Jan. 11 to fill 1,192 seats in 14 provincial assemblies" (page 42006).
Prevost 2002: "The trends evidenced in the 1993 elections continued in 1998. There was an overall participation rate in excess of 98 percent. Nationally, 95 percent of the votes cast were judged to be valid, with only 3.3 percent blank and 1.7 percent spoiled. As in 1993 there had been strong calls from those outside Cuba who oppose the revolution for voters to use the occasion to voice opposition to the process; there is no evidence that such a protest occurred. The process of passing on political power to a new generation continued, as two-thirds of the National Assembly delegates were elected for the first time; 28 percent were women. The transition at the level of top leadership also continued, with 45 percent of the Council of State becoming members of this body for the first time" (page 351).
El proceso electoral en Cuba: 1992-1998 1998: "Quinta legislatura 1998-2003: esta legislatura está compuesta por 601 diputados, los que eligieron la Presidencia de la ANPP y el Consejo de Estado" (page 4). Lists officers. "Elecciones generales de 1998" (pages 111-197). Reproduces articles from Cuban publications, including election results and the name of each deputy with the district they represent and the percent of the vote they received.
Roman 1999: "After the...1998 [election], the percentage of deputies who belonged to the [PCC] was a little over 70 percent" (page 94). "Of the 601 National Assembly candidates for the 1998 elections, 145 (24.1 percent) were production or service sector workers; 278 (46.25 percent) were municipal delegates, including 90 presidents and vice presidents of 'consejos populares'; 166 (27.62 percent) were female, which was an increase of 32, and 209 (34.8 percent) were incumbents" (page 138).
Adam 05:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Hasta la vista, Adam 11:35, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Excellent work. The article is now in remarkably better shape. 172 | Talk 12:16, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I have removed some statements some would believe to be POV; added some links and new info; and provided info on Elections from the Elections in Cuba article. Comandante 13:01, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Let me see
This list foes on endlessly * I quit after you idiots are insisting Cuba is now a democracy I really wish it was so. El Jigue 4-14-06
Heated discussion aside, can everyone take a deep breath, and look at the article? I think we all can agree that the article doesn't match anybody's personal point of view, but that overall it is a really good article and that it is moving towards a central 'neutral point' between all the points of view. BruceHallman 15:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
writes:
Blocks User talk:205.240.227.15 [25]
What Sgrayban does not realize that idiot as in “useful idiot” or “useful fool” is a technical term in political discourse as in Mona Sharon’s 1993 book Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got It Wrong in the Cold War and Still Blame America First Regnery Publishing, Inc. ISBN 0895261391. (reviews at [26]). The term is in constant use e.g. [27] [28] even if Wikipedia does not fully agree Useful idiot. One of the most prominent of these Useful Idiots was Walter Duranty [29].
One notes that Grayban does not threaten Comandante when he calls names such as terrorist mafia etc, (apparently comandate’s revision history has been purged from Wikipedia [30] but hey but such inequality “la ley del embudo” is par for the course here it seems. Supposedly banned for 24 hours Comandante is back at it.
As to being angry, perhaps if you had risked your life for freedom in Cuba, with the bullets flying over your head, and wounding and killing those beside, and then find all you property taken, been imprisoned, seeing, and at times even burying, the executed, and then exiled for endless decades a given person, perhaps even you, would be somewhat perturbed. El Jigue 4-14-06
Grayban following Wikipedia principals please document what ever trauma you went through, thus we can be sure of your expertise on Cuba El Jigue 4-14-06
For those of you that think I am flexing should read Wikipedia:Civility#General_suggestions before they make another rude comment on this talk page. It is a blocking offense. This talk page has been riddled with it and I have tried to curb those flame war's and revert's but I am just near the end of it and ready to get a admin to deal with the ones that don't wont to play nice here. -- Scott Grayban 17:19, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I am sure this will be done most selectively (:>) xe xe El Jigue 4-14-06
There are gross errors in
"The 1952 election, was contested between
Roberto Agramonte of the liberals and Batista, who was seeking a return to office. When it became apparent that Batista had no chance of winning, he staged a coup on 10 March 1952, and held power with the backing of a nationalist section of the army, and of the Communists, as a “provisional president” for the next two years. In 1954, under pressure from the U.S., he agreed to elections. The liberals put forward ex-President Grau as their candidate, but he withdrew amid allegations that Batista was rigging the elections in advance. Batista could now claim to be an elected President, and his regime tolerated a considerable amount of dissent. By Latin American standards, Batista was a very mild dictator." For instance the Liberal party was long gone by this time, it was an election mainly between the "Autenticos" and the "Ortodoxo" Revolutionary Parties.
This could be fixed, I could do it, but others are sure to inject further nonsense. So you guys fix it. El Jigue 4-14-06
"Patria" means "homeland" in Spanish, not "patriotism", as any Spanish speaker or English-Spanish dictionary will confirm. "Patriotism" is "patriotismo" in Spanish. Who keeps changing the English translation to say "patrioitism" in the article? Kwertii 18:46, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I was confident that Cuba was one of a number of countries that is referred to as a "fatherland" when translated to English. This group includes all sorts of nations; Norway, Netherlands, and and so on. However, the more I look into the more ambiguous it becomes. I believe that for accuracy it should be "fatherland" (Castros's oft-quoted "fatherland or death" speech etc) but for avoiding controversy it may be worth using "homeland" as the two are interchangeable in translation. -- Zleitzen 20:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
The fact is that patria derives from the Latin pater, father, so it is correctly translated as "fatherland." This has nothing to do with Nazis, and I am not American, so spare me your childish political insults. If the Cubans want to consider their country as a female then should make their slogan "Matria y Libertad". That said, I have no objection to rendering it "homeland" if that is less offensive to politically-correct gender-neutralist ears. Adam 00:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
The issue is ambiguous, despite Adam's assertions. The Latin motto "Pro Rege Et Patria" used widely on English crests is translated as "for king and country" and not "for king and fatherland". Likewise the motto "Pro deo et patria" (For God and Country).
Patria (v. Patriarchal) is from the latin Pater (which became Padre in castillian)... you have Father (masc.) -Patr- as a modifier of the noun Land (FEM.) -ia-... that is why Patria (My Father's Land) takes LA... Patria is feminine, but it means Fatherland ([to El Jigue:] from the cojonudos romans, not teutons... you've fallen for the "little dictator" making-fun antics of yankis)... the cuban's "Madre Patria" is spain, not cuba... he dies for his father's LAND, LA PATRIA... o carioca --200.142.180.66 21:55, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that it makes sense to balance the POV of the first paragraph with the POV of the second paragraph. The first paragraph essentially makes one statement, 'Batista' was authoritarian, followed by a POV argument the U.S. sanctions have detrimental effect on human rights in Cuba.
While the second new paragraph with an opposing view describes four 'facts', prohibition on free speech, (disputed and not agreed), free business (it doesn't acknowledge recent liberalization of private business), violations of human rights (again does not recognize modern improvements in human rights), personal property (mostly not true, as most personal property is allowed) followed by a POV argument about control tactics.
(I admit my personal POV biases), but the first POV paragraph has one verified and agreed 'fact', and the second paragraph has four generally unverified 'facts'. These simply do not balance.
The two POV arguments do approximately balance. I support balancing the POV's here, but the four unverified 'facts' do not balance. BruceHallman 03:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Personally I prefer to see notable cited sources embedded into the article for these types of statements (if available). They can help reduce the potential for POV accusations etc. We are characterising a debate, so it may also be worth combining opposing statements into one depiction. A rough example would be something like this.
This is just my personal preference, though. And it does requires research and editing of both sides of the POV. -- Zleitzen 05:52, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Are we ready for a 1st round peer review yet? -- Scott Grayban 07:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Who are these "peers"? Some further comments:
Bletch, you have reinserted the statement "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy" in the first paragraph (again). This comes after a week of edit wars, blocks and bans over this issue. Please review talk page history and cite a source for this. For guidance I provided the encarta description of Cuban democracy, I'll repeat it here;
Democracy is very broad term that is not limited to particular political systems. Encarta recognise this and write accordingly, keeping to encylopedic standards. The communsist state argument was hammered out at length above. And personally I believe there is a problem of bias in relying on US military and government sources on these matters. Rather like relying on Fidel Castro's opinions of the US to inform the United States article. -- Zleitzen 12:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
It's a tricky business, Scott. But terms such as democracy, communist state and socialist cannot be used in "short hand" in an encyclopedia. Each term has to be used in the proper form. This is why other encyclopedias use particular language and terminology (see encarta above or encyclopedia britannica entries on Cuba etc). Bletch's statement contradicts that method. Although I may believe in passing that "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy", I am creating a short hand for the term that does not correspond with the true definition. Btw, I thought there was some consensus that the first paragraph wouldn't contain such political detail in any case? -- Zleitzen 13:21, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Another conflict arises from providing alternative POV's on this. ie. Cuba is a Socialist or Communist State depending on the person's view. By that rationale an article on (say) Ireland could carry the (albeit unlikely) statement "Ireland is a democratic or theocratic depending on the person's view". That is a poor example, but do you see the problems here? Who has this different view? -- Zleitzen 13:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Scott Grayban 13:37, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Cuba is a Socialist Republic (as in UK is a constitutional monarchy), in which the Communist Party of Cuba is the sole legal political party. That I believe is the correct entry and corresponds with the terminology of other encyclopedias etc. Although the Bletch edit I query here was "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy". -- Zleitzen 13:44, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Adam, Why don't you stop the reverting for a bit and talk here and lets hammer out the issue of "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy." and be done with it now. Or does the need of another block in order before we can get this worked out in the talk? -- Scott Grayban 13:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
"Cuba is a Socialist Republic , in which the Communist Party of Cuba is the sole legal political party." isn't correct either. The Communist Party of Cuba is not the sole political party. They do allow other's to participate. However The Communist Party of Cuba does hold the majority of the political seats which does make them the ruling party. -- Scott Grayban 13:50, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually it is the sole legal political party. Some self-proclaimed political parties claim to operate, but they are not recognized by the constitution. Those who run for office, however, do not have to be a member of any political party. On another note, this statement "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy.", is an obvious POV and not a fact so it should be permanently removed. The rest of the article is political enough. Comandante 13:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
The communist party is the only legal political party in cuba, according to the Cuban constitution and all other sources including US Government. [35] -- Zleitzen 14:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Encyclopedia Britannica [36] alongside the above mentioned legally binding Cuban Constitution -- Zleitzen 14:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
You can play word games with the term "democracy", but in the end if you have a party with a monopoly on political activity and other parties or forms of opposition cannot play a serious role, then the country in question is not a democracy. -- Bletch 14:45, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I didn't realise you were asking for a source to go within the article itself. Why not use the Cuban Constitution and keep the earlier phrase?-- Zleitzen 15:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
No problem, Scott. Regardless, the Cuban constitution is the best possible source for this legal matter, and it's linked within the article. (Or it was the last time I looked!)-- Zleitzen 16:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Scott, I am curious about the source of the "Can't use Encyclopedia Britannica as a source because the user is required to buy a subscription to see the entire article." rule. Commonly that information is available for free in public libraries who share there subscription of the online Encyclopedia Britanica to the public for free. Indeed, many people can only afford to access Wikipedia from public libraries (because they cannot afford computers and cannot afford to pay for a dedicated personal internet connection). Or, when I cannot afford to pay the subscription fee for a print magazine (or buy a book), I go to the public library to read their copy for free. BruceHallman 15:43, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok now I am getting tired of this. The next revert done without talking on the talk page and getting this worked out will not only find themselves blocked for a long time. There will be no more reverts by anyone unless there is vandalism period. Everyone is violating the WP:3RR here. Comandante is looking for such a ban. -- Scott Grayban 14:03, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I just stated my reason for deleting that POV statement and now your threatening to ban me. That's typical. I wonder why you haven't threatened to ban Bletch who keeps on sneaking his bias into the article? Comandante 14:11, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Scott discussed a ban concerning Adam's revert above, Commandante. I see no bias here. -- Zleitzen 14:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I have told him to stop as well. I'll do it again too Bletch if you revert or change this article in any manner other then to remove vandalism I'll have you blocked from here. This WP:3RR blantant violation will stop one way or another. -- Scott Grayban 14:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Bletch just reverted the article. Comandante 14:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
You need to accept that the days of communist rule over this article are over. Adam 14:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
You need to accept that Cuba is a sovereign, Socialist state, and that at the end of the day, there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. Comandante 14:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
So are you guys going to do anything about Bletch? Or are you going to sit around and hope that i revert him so you can block me as well? Comandante 14:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I just issued the last WP:3RR warning for Adam, Comandante, and Bletch. And i'll post it here as well so that everyone can see it and can't claim I'm being biased here.
Since you are an active participant in this
Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert a single page more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the effect of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you.
In the section above Bletch wrote: "the question was whether it is a democracy or not." Yes indeed, and repeatedly I have been trying to engage you, Bletch, in a discussion of just this question, though I get a clear impression that you evade our efforts to engage in a discussion of this question. Re-read the message archives and you will see many questions directed to you about this issue which you did not answer. Restating a couple key questions: Please cite a reference that democracy is required to have parties, and if yes, how many parties? In other words, how correct is your assertion that a one party democracy not a democracy? You have not demonstrated that your assertion is not original research. Also, I grant that many people share your POV that democracy in Cuba is very disfunctional. Still, why is a bad democracy not a type of democracy? You *repeatedly* revert your POV sentence that Cuba is not a democracy, and your POV to be accurate perhaps should say that Cuba has a bad democracy. BruceHallman 15:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Scott, I can read Encyclopedia Britannica, including both the paper and the online version, for free in my local public library. BruceHallman 20:03, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm using other encyclopaedias as examples of method within a talk page, not as sources for the article, Scott.-- Zleitzen 16:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I can't read the whole thing either. I'm just giving examples of how encyclopedic standards are applied. -- Zleitzen 16:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Zleitzen and Sgrayban, you guys can drop the argument about Britannica. Zleitzen is free to cite it because Wikipedia editors have always been free to cite books and non-free access websites. At the same time, Zleitzen's citation of Britannica is irrelvant for reasons I stated above. 172 | Talk 16:33, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Ummm, 172 Right now I'm trying to get a vote on something different here and would like to get just one thing agreed on so we can move on. 3 disputes right now and all I'm looking for is one to get resolved and we are close to it. -- Scott Grayban 16:38, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your editing efforts I can see that you spent a lot of time and thought which I appreciate. Though regretfully, what you wrote includes too much point of view and too little citation and too much original research. So, I must add a neutrality dispute box to the section. Perhaps it would make sense to move it to a sandbox to hash out the differences? I am not arguing that the previous Human Rights section is better or should be reverted as it had many problems too.
There is so much in your section that quickly listing all the specifics of my dispute is not possible. However, starting with the first sentence, you wrote "...the rights of the individual..." as if we all agree what the rights of the individual should be. In reality your concept is ethnocentric, similar to the systemic bias problem that pervades Wikipedia. In the second sentence you write of "the states political aims" as if there is no validity to the concept of ".socialist state of workers, organized with all and for the good of all... " Again, ethnocentric, you are bringing a Free Market capitalistic value belief system towards the forming the basis of your condemnation of a social system that deliberately eschews capitalism.
Can we at least agree that the context of their human rights falls within the context of a socialist society, and that applying capitalistic values on that system is a logical falacy? BruceHallman 16:12, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
...you are bringing a Free Market capitalistic value belief system towards the forming the basis of your condemnation of a social system that deliberately eschews capitalism. BruceHallman, you're way off. Virtually the entire section can be referenced by citing the Cuban constitution itself. Cuba is a one-party state in which the state is constitutionally subordinate to the Communist Party, and the government restricts freedom of speech, association, assembly, press, and movement outside the control of the party. Adam Carr's section elaborates on this fact in a straightforward and factual manner. 172 | Talk 16:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I would like a vote posted in this section and please only sign with a support or oppose. No need for anything else to be posted.
The vote is for the use of "Cuba is a Socialist Republic , where other political parties are allowed to participate but the Communist Party of Cuba has the majority of seat's and vote's." for the article.
Support -- Scott Grayban 16:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC) Support BruceHallman 20:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I am going to ignore this poll. I encourage other users to ignore it as well. Adam Carr has already expended enough energy settling this matter. This matter no longer needs to be discussed. 172 | Talk 16:49, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Hello all -- I am here as part of the medcabal to help us come to a solution to part of the article conflict.
I am somewhat familiar with the kind of dispute that is going on. However, the talk page here is huge, and before joining in I wanted to check to see if people wanted me here. Please let me know what the consensus is, i.e., do you want a third party to come in and help out, or are discussions moving along well without me? [38] If the former, what is the main locus of the dispute?
Sdedeo ( tips) 20:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, thanks. Is there a particular point in the article where people are battling? Can you maybe provide a diff? In the end we will need to include all POVs, of course, following WP:NPOV (which also means that superminority POVs are given less weight and prominence.) Perhaps putting in some sources and in general sourcing POVs (e.g., "According to Amnesty International..." "According to the US State Department..." "According to the Cuban government...") will help resolve things? Sdedeo ( tips) 20:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure we can find sources to discuss what to call Cuba's political system. Can you provide sources that state that Cuba is a democracy? And sources that dispute that? Sdedeo ( tips) 20:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, now we need some folks to weigh in with sources that declare Cuba is not a democracy. Sdedeo ( tips) 21:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone spot the out-country-out? Adam 01:24, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Anyone realize this yet or not that there are only 3 words that is making this article POV ? Communist, Socialist, and Democracy. The same 3 words that comminusts and socialist use in there anti-american propaganda and the same 3 words used in American propaganda. Have we not learned anything at all? Adam is bent on labeling Cuba as a communist state just like the US. Government does. Cuba use the samething in order to provoke hate towards the US. See anything wrong at all ? No one will be happy until 1 is dead and the other wins. Samething for the opposite countries. -- Scott Grayban 02:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)