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There's a line that some editors seem to be pushing and approach that completely misunderstands the concept of "opposing views". Yes, differing views should be presented. But not every fact has an opposing view, except in the most contorted and ideological sophistry. If we say rhumba came from Cuba, we really don't need to present the "opposing view". And likewise for the fact it's south of Florida. Many facts that are social or political also have no sensible "opposing view"... and just presenting some fact that someone might take as a good thing about Cuba doesn't mean that we need some digression into a tirade as an "opposing view".
So Cuba has a 96% literacy nowadays (or whatever the referencable number is). There's no "opposing view" to that (unless some serious non-fringe position existed that it had a 50% literacy or a 150% literacy like the SD seems to expect). Sure, if estimates actually vary, we can say "95-98%" and footnote the various sources, or whatever. It's not an "opposing view" to argue tediously about what might have happened in regard to literacy under some other regime, or whatever counterfactual. It's not an "opposing view" to argue that the literacy rate "doesn't count" for whatever reason, it's just an editorial that doesn't belong here. Symmetrically, it would be POV nonsense to write that "The 96% literacy rate proves the revolution is really great". Our job is just to state the facts, readers can decide for themselves what "might have been" or "what it proves". Similarly for health indices, or abortion rates, or whatever.
Even most of the stuff around form-of-government has no sensible "opposing view". We don't follow the fact that Castro has been president, or that X% of legislators were PCC members, or whatever with some rant about how bad those facts are under the misleading guise that it's an "opposing view". It's fine to say that such-and-such are the constitutional procedures. And it's even mostly fine, if properly cited, to write that the de jure procedures are not fully followed de facto. But adding at the end "and that's bad" isn't an "opposing view", it's just an editorial (and it's just as much an editorial even if it's a direct quotation). LotLE× talk 19:59, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
This sentence had been in the article, and has gone back-and-forth a bit in the last day. I think that with a good citation it's nicely informative, but not essential certainly. What do folks think?
LotLE× talk 21:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
It is my understanding that it was disappointment to many inside Cuba too. El Jigue 5-14-06 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.240.227.15 ( talk • contribs) 22:20, 14 May 2006 (UTC).
If memory serves me right, shortly before the disintegration of the Soviet Union, Gorbachev informed Fidel Castro ("Fidel" from now on) that it would no longer purchase Cuban sugar at above world market prices. This was, in effect, a subsidy to the Fidelista govenment. Now, the Cuban economy began to fail, creating many hardships for the people. Some in Cuba (and in the United States) were hoping that the downward spiraling economy would precipitate Fidel's departure at the head of the government. A guy by the name of Oppenheimer wrote a book or, maybe, an article rearding this very same subject. I don't recall. In any case, the alternative to Fidel was his brother, Raul; and the people fear him. Meanwhile, Fidel changed the emphasis of the Cuban economy from agricultural to that of tourism, where it stands today. Thus, he has been able to remain in power to the disappointment of the exiles and the disidents. Robert Melbo 05/27/06
Apparently Seguridad del Estado had nothing to do with that Eh! what? El Jigue 5-27-06
The article states, [Cuba's] culture and customs draw from several sources including ... the island’s close proximity to the United States.
Just what Cuban customs have the United States as its source? What aspect of Cuban culture "draws" from the United States? Drogo Underburrow 02:09, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
None of these are fundamental to culture. Culture is much deeper. The Spanish and African heritage is fundamental to Cuba. The fact that Cubans like a sport invented in the U.S. is not an indication that U.S. culture is a part of Cuba. Neither is Cuban radio playing an American song, nor the celebration of Mother's Day. That Cubans watch CSI means that they are exposed to U.S. culture, and that may in the long run change their culture; but one should point to studies then, not make bald assertions. Drogo Underburrow 06:57, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
this line of ciritism needs to be addressed.
The Cuban American National Foundation and Lawrence Solomon of the Urban Renaissance Institute claim that Cuba masks the truth behind the Cuban health care system. They argue that real Cuban healthcare is abysmal and that what is shown to non-Cuban foreigners is a healthcare system unavailable to the average Cuban. [5] [6] [7] The National Review has made similar criticisms.
This has been deleted multiple times by left wing censors who don't want the information out there. I call bullshit on this censorship. Just because you actually think universal health care can work doesnt mean you have to delete information that suggests it will not. Cut it out.
btw, Milton Friedman gave the economic arguement on why left wing socialists tend to censor information and why capitalists typically will not. Read his book Capitalism and Freedom to figure out why. ( Gibby 03:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC))
Return-Path: <wiki@wikimedia.org> Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 03:52:57 GMT Message-Id: <200605150352.k4F3qvq1023822@localhost.localdomain> X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: apache set sender to wiki@wikimedia.org using -f To: Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters <wikipedia@gnosis.cx> Subject: Wikipedia e-mail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MediaWiki mailer From: KDRGibby <kdrgibby81@yahoo.com>
you are fucking stupid. That is not POV material. My god. You are an idiot and wiki is full of people like you. Stop censoring information and making up bullshit excuses.
It looks like Drogo Underburrow is intent on repeating KDRGibby's 3RR violation. Not there quite yet, but I'll be sure to report it if or when he violates. KDRGibby, appropriately, was blocked for a month—but that's mostly because of prior probation. I assume Drogo's block would be for less time. LotLE× talk 04:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Lulu: Yeh YEh and then you can purge him, thus proving his point of view is inaccurate. El Jigue 5-27-06
Three revert rule violation on Cuba ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Drogo_Underburrow ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log):
Reported by: ~~~~
Comments:
I don't want to brush against 3RR myself, if someone else would restore the most recent vandalism by Drogo, that would be helpful. LotLE× talk 06:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The refs in this article is a complete mess, fix them to footnotes. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 03:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok, but this article is in content revert war, should be protected, or at least every stop editing for like a hour for formatting of refs. Remember we are trying to make this article better and all this revert war won't help. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 04:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
1) Somebody please make a new archive. 2) start a new page 3) write down the title of each chapter as they appear on the article. Comment only those sentences found in a particular chapter chapter. 4) don’t assume readers are stupid. Every single fact presented in the main text is followed by “explanations” meant to influence the readers. Since we have different POVs let’s present the facts as they are, and let the readers to make their own conclusions (e.g. suicide rates, life expectancy etc). Keep comparisons with other countries at minimum. It’s better to put things into context but this could be extremely misleading, keeping in mind you can chose your examples as you wish. If not possible at least keep comparing the same countries.-- Anticom 04:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I have protected the page to stop this revert-warring. You need to discuss on the talk page first before reverting another editor's additions like that, and if the additions are controversial, you should post them here first and try to reach consensus. We've already received enough negative publicity for revert wars on this article (see the link at the top of this talk page), and I really do hope to see better behavior from all of you in the future. -- Cyde Weys 08:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Referenced material from one side systematically removed. Please read Wikipedia:NPOV:
Ultramarine! Maybe you should go to Cuba and see for yourself how the Cuban health care system works! O, wait, you live in the US, so that means your country, which is a "free country", dosn't let you travel to Cuba! That is Freedom, indeed! What is democracy? The Government of Fidel Castro has huge support from its people, that is more than you can say about the Bush regime. Malcolm X said a lot of good things. Here is a quote about the US view towards goverments in countries that they don't like:"As soon as they get the mass of their people behind them, they're dictaros. As soon as they have unity of their people in their country, they're a dictator." - Bronks 12:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The fact that US citizens cannot travel to Cuba, and the 'freedom' irony of that policy is not original research. [12] BruceHallman 13:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Isn't it ironic that you point to a US State Dept. website in the same sentence as you advocate to keep the issue of the US travel ban to Cuba out of the Cuba article? Obviously, US and Cuba relations are intertwined. Also, objectively, how can an editor determine the credibility of the 'Fear and Freedom' article to which you pointed? How is an editor (or US citizen) to determine what, if any, of the US State Dept. material is propaganda? Wikipedia aside, if a US citizen wanted to see first hand the conditions in Cuba and not necessarily rely on information provided by the State Department, is that allowed? BruceHallman 15:13, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
It is not illigal for American Citizens to enter Cuba, from a Cuban point of view. The problem for the Americans is to get pass their own governemnt... All Americans I know that have gone to Cuba, (and I do know a couple), have had to go through Mexico or Canada, or some other country that that is more "free" than the US. I susspect Oliver Stone had to do the same thing. Bronks 16:51, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The web site "Real Cuba" is presenting written and photographic material on the support of the upper class to Castro's revolution [22].
Other material presented discusses labor rights in Cuba during the first half of the 20th century. El Jigue 5-15-06
Sadly, the "Real Cuba" is a propaganda site which does not meet wikipedia's demand for verifiable sources. -- Beardo 06:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi all, I'm back after getting accidentally caught up in a Castro-esque round up of dissidents and being blocked in error. Here are my thoughts:
"Referenced material from one side systematically removed. Please read Wikipedia:NPOV"
-- Zleitzen 03:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Just to be clear, here is the referenced material from one side systematically removed.:
The only sourced objectin is this: [28]. However, this source does not deny the already mentioned problem with public health care system. Also, from the source: "Low pay of doctors, Poor facilities—buildings in poor state of repair, Poor provision of equipment, Frequent absence of essential drugs,Concern regarding freedom of choice both for patient and doctor" Thus, no excuse for ignoring Wikipedia:Neutrality and selectively deleting the views of one side. Ultramarine 10:25, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Please delete the table. Reasons: 1) It’s ugly. Kills the look of the entire page. I haven’t see on any other WP page something similar (not that I read all of them). 2) It’s redundant. What is the point of the link you provide if you have the same table twice? 3) It’s propagandistic. Look, I understand the pro-Castro group is desperate to present Castro/communism in a triumphalistic way but this is not the most effective way to do it. Despite what you may believe I have no problem with presenting good stuff about Castro/communism as long they're real. And health (not everything) is one of the few good things that happen on that island for real. 4) Move the data to Table 1. It will have a bigger impact, plus will look good. 5) In exchange (Jesus, we’re negotiating now) I can tell you about a real achievement of Cuban health.-- Anticom 04:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Several pages of text were deleted instead of being archived, the majority was nothing that I wrote and that I had nothing to do with.
The lame justification was: "too much, to archive".
I added all of this text to archive09. Travb 05:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Surely the page should have the protection comment - why was that removed ? -- Beardo 07:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
The problem is the systematic deletion of the views of one side. See the "Neutrality" section above. Or see The Dream Deferred: Fear and Freedom in Fidel’s Cuba. Ultramarine 11:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Disputed points:
At this point, we have one claim without a source and one claim with a source. I suggest we put both claims in the article; and provide the source for the latter claim. Meanwhile, let's dig into the former claim. Maybe Bruce can find a source for that, too? -- Uncle Ed 13:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I think I understand both these ideas, Bruce. Sorry, my phrasing and understanding were both poor! Let me try again:
Disputed points:
Bruce, does this state the dispute more accurately? -- Uncle Ed 19:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Request for mediation rejected, per post here. With the disputed ' sentence ' presently omitted from the introduction, perhaps a need for mediation is moot. Also, the second item to be mediated was civility, and at present, civility seems improved too. But, the third and fourth items involved respect for alternate points of view, and this still seems to have room for improvement. BruceHallman 16:07, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
One of the problems of comparison of health and education statistics is that international agencies UN WHO etc accept without verification the statistics provided by each government. This may work if there are agencies in free opposition to present government, however when there is not...this data must be taken with "a grain of salt."
The same applies to internal dissent which is hard to verify in countries such as Cuba where dissent is called "desacato" or disrespect and such is a crime. In a similar fashion, opposition or support cannot be measured by public demonstrations which are readily repressed or enhanced by massive government response. El Jigue 5-16-06
As discussed previously, there are systematic deletion of the views of one side. See the "Neutrality" section above. Or see The Dream Deferred: Fear and Freedom in Fidel’s Cuba.
In addition, there is refusal to follow Wikipedia:Cite sources. Thus, while deleting well-referenced arguments, unreferenced arguments removed according to Wikipedia policy are added back, still without references, in order to support one side. For example "currently has more doctors serving internationally than the World Health Organization." "Cuba has over 71,000 doctors" "The curriculum in primary and secondary schools is based upon principles of hard work, self-discipline and love of country. Students are required to work in agriculture three times a week" "Cuba is in the top quintile in worldwide comparisons of major health indicators such as doctors per capita, life expectancy, infant mortality; possibly worse in nutritional quality." "Cuba attracts paying "health tourists" who wish to obtain medical services, often at lower cost than the same procedures in their home countries." Ultramarine 16:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I see a history (and a future) of editorial conflict in this article that directly stems from editors fighting over 'hot button' POV topics. (This might be a radical idea), but perhaps the editors could agree to move the 'hot button' items out on the related pages Human rights in Cuba, etc.. Then the Cuba article than can be devoted to non-controversial items and the editorial conflict reduced. The alternative, is more (and never ending) editorial conflict editing this article. BruceHallman 19:34, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not advocating for POV forking. I am advocating for keeping both forks of the 'hot button' items out of the main article. In other words, more on Cuban music, cuisine, geography, climate, and less about good and bad things about Communism and Fidel Castro. That kind of editorial decision is neutral, because it is equal, and it serves to reduce edit fights. Can't we neutrally and mutually agree to avoid fighting, by staying away from 'hot button' topics pro and con while writing the Cuba article? BruceHallman 21:33, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Some benighted soul (s?) removed the history of Cuban medicine, hospitals etc and left only not readily verifiable statistics from Cuban government sources or from internation agencies which accept Cuban government statistics without verification. El Jigue 5-16-06
Z: Thank you. I finally found it. However, a better lead in could be provided e.g. [Main article: Public health in Cuba] provides historical context. In addition the caveat about the original source of statistics, is necessary in this section to avoid POV; "The public heathcare system in Cuba is free and universal. Its existence is frequently cited as a positive, legitimizing factor of the current socialist system. Cuba's healthcare system is widely regarded as one of the best in the world; however WHO data cited here comes directly from national health authorities of each country [1]. Thus, there are some who do not trust this data [2] [3]." El Jigue 5-16-06
One finds that despite careful suggestions by a number of people including myself, very serious errors continue to have a presence in the article. For instance, one cannot help but notice the really erroneous description of the participants in the line up for the Batista aborted 1952 election. This circumstance apparently caused by a plague of benighted souls, continues to make the Cuba article a laughing stock for the better informed. El Jigüe 5-16-0 6
Beardo, remember for some time now I am not allowed to insert stuff in the article, only in discussion. If you want confirmation of candidates who were to be placed on the 1952 ballot look up:
Reira Hernandez, Mario 1974. Cuba Republicana 1899-1958. Editorial AIP,Miami Fl Library of Congress number 74-16982
Try page 7 and following first El Jigue 5-16-06
Beardo read what is says, if you think it is correct, perhaps you should read the suggested citation. Frankly I do not register because it is my opinion that to do so would infer or suggest agreement with what is said in the article. El Jigue 5-17-06
This photograph keeps on getting removed. Why? It's a nice photograph, isn't it? Not politically biased or anything. So what's wrong with it? DirkvdM 18:32, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Z: It is my understanding, that particular photo shows one of the then newly painted houses in Bayamo. In that sense the house has been spruced up for the photo. Perhaps it was removed by the person who owns the house and lost its use to Castro. El Jigue 5-17-06
Interesting Bruce, since the house seems to be on flat land as if on the plains of the Cauto not the hills of Trinidad, the road appears straight smooth and wide not cobble stone, hilly and curved and with high sidewalks as one would expect in Trinidad. Besides that same source erroneously identified that truck as participating in the assault on Moncada in Santiago instead of the Presidential Palace in Havana. Again I wonder if somebody is feeding false information. Could you find out more? BTW a painted house is a rarity in Cuba. El Jigue 5-21-06
Dirk the truck photo in question as was noted from another source was used in the attack on the Presidencial Palace in Havana by the Directorio Estudiantil and the Organizacion Autentica in 1957, not by the Castro attack on the Guillermon Moncada Barracks in 1953. As to the photograph of the automobile could someone tell me the street in Trinidad where it is said it was taken, for it looks quite like the Calixto Garcia street in Bayamo. However, I looked at your image closely and the sidewalks (pavement) seem narrow, that would be unusual except in downtown Bayamo. The elaborate colonial balconies also support the your statement that the photos was taken in Trinidad, because Bayamo was burned in 1868 and essentially a war zone from 1868-1898. BTW A jigue is not a troll, for trolls supposedly live underbridges, while jigues live in jungle lagoons. In addition jigues are legendary well endowed seducers of women while trolls are said to be cannibals. El Jigue 5-23-06.
Could contributors propose titles for subarticles below, in order to leave the article open and free from imposed ideological statements and views. It should be the case that users are able to contribute interesting and notable details on the island and people of Cuba (such as the photo above) without it getting lost in the type of editing which appears to have been started by our esteemed colleague Dr Carr. Note that there are already subarticles to each section so much of the controversial material can be shipped there, please check all articles relating to Cuba before making a suggestion because there are many. There should be a US/Cuba relations article which I know a number of users have signed up to. And there may also need to be others where bi-polar positions can be explored. User thoughts?-- Zleitzen 19:18, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Still, there may be problames regarding what material should be in stubs in the main article. I have previously tried to move POV from one side to the subarticles when other POVs were removed, but this was immediately reverted, leaving only one POV in the main article. So again Zleitzen, what is your proposal for the stub for, for example, "Government and politics" or "Public Health"? Ultramarine 19:42, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Brucehallman writes Human Rights, Politics & Government/Elections, Public Health, Economy and Education qualify as contentious sections.
Can I conclude from this that it would be malicious of me to infer from the above, that it appears only those sections of the main article, that pass muster by the extreme left are not removed to the suggested purgatories. In addition one notices that Gibby's, more than a little to my right politically, has once again lost access, this time permanently. El Jigue 5-17-06
Forking eh! Apparently whoever those who thought up this neologism are less familiar with middle English and certain word roots. El Jigue 5-17-06
It seems that Cuban sugar crop production has fallen to even lower levels [37]. El Jigue 5-17-06
Let's remove "Cuba’s relationship with the neighboring United States has often involved political conflict."
It doesn't belong in a short description of a country but in international relations. It also hyperemphasizes the conflicts and suggests that the government of Cuba is to blame. Teemu Ruskeepää 15:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Teemu Of course the Cuban government is not to blame, for to blame it would be like blaming a shark for eating people. That is its declared nature, intent and actions... El Jigue 5-20-06
Ok Teemu anything you say even if it violates marxist internationalist thought. El Jigue 5-21-06.
Z: Recent archeological and growing biochemical evidence shows that the Taino cultural and biological influence on Cuban culture is far more persistent than was previously thought, or previously proclaimed "Manda abuela para la cocina, que viene visitas." One only has to look at place names in the Cuban countryside to realize that.
Even Jigues may have existed [39] [40].
The Taino are part of /afin to the Island Arawak. Greater and greater interest in the Arawak culture is arising with each new archeological discovery in Amazonia [41] [www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1631806/posts] [42]. Some are even considering the Arawak (Arahuaco, Arauaco)) as the matrix from which the great pre-Colombian American civilizations arose. El Jigue 5-21-06
The Cuba-United States relations article is now open for business, it presently has some material taken from Cuban foreign relations so needs some work.-- Zleitzen 14:22, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Greetings comrades, I am back. As you see I have been visiting the glorious former German Democratic Republic, a country which just like Cuba held wonderful democratic elections, at which all the SED candidates were elected with 99% of the vote and where the people loved the DDR regime under kindly old Erich Honnecker so very much (just like the Cubans love Fidel), because it gave them all that wonderful free health care etc etc and built a lovely wall to protect them from the wicked capitalist west. Or so it seemed until that terrible day in 1989 when it turned out the ungrateful German workers and peasants really wanted bourgeois democracy and capitalist decadence after all. Meanwhile, I see the Fidelistas have been busy reinserting their pathetic lies in my absence, and much needs to be done at this article and the other Cuba articles. Once I have caught up with some real election results at my website, combat will be resumed. Adam 08:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Teemu removed this discussion:
Theater of the absurd
Teemu Ruskeepää| writes: "Let's remove "Cuba’s relationship with the neighboring United States has often involved political conflict."" - "It doesn't belong in a short description of a country but in international relations. It also hyperemphasizes the conflicts and suggests that the government of Cuba is to blame. Teemu Ruskeepää 15:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)"
And yet reality is :
"Castro chastised the Bush administration for creating a transition plan for a post-Castro Cuba and accused the administration of threatening his country and its ally Venezuela with U.S. military exercises under way in the Caribbean. U.S. officials say the exercises have nothing to do with Cuba or Venezuela. " [43]
(Also of note is that even the UN is having difficulty accepting Cuban government data: "Cuba uses its own method to calculating economic growth that takes into account the country's vast social safety net and subsidized services. That makes Cuba's growth figures difficult to compare with those of other countries, prompting the United Nation's Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean to leave the island's numbers out of its report last year. " from same ABC report)
One concludes from all this that to even infer that the Cuban government is involved in "political" conflict is to violate "NPOV" or neutral point of view. Thus were one to call the world round would violate the neutrality because some still persist in calling the world flat. El Jigue 5-22-06 (reposted after deletion 5-23-06)
One notes that removal of discussion violates Wikipedia rules El Jigue 5-23-06
Z: No I was contesting the photographers memory of the place, unlike the circumstance of the truck illustration which was obviously incorrect. Here the photographer seems to be correct, see my acknowledgement of this in previous discussion. However, one may note that usually only those who view Castro in a favorable light are allowed to photograph street scenes in Cuba. On the other hand, were I to return to Cuba I would be imprisoned. Thus statements of this photographer cannot be considered NPOV either. However, one notes that in the other images taken by this photographer, judging by the palm thatched roofs, bohios (commonly condemned by many in the Cuban government fifty years ago) can still be seen; so much for improvements in housing. El Jigue 5-24-06
Werlau, Maria C. (2005). "Fidel Castro, Inc.: A Global Conglomerate" (PDF). Cuba in Transition. 15: 376–395.
Just some morsels. Read the best details in the article. :) Ultramarine 03:41, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Bruce! And the above material cited by Ultramarine is not about Cuba????? El Jigue 5-24-06
Cubano. A esta gente cuando le conviene los comentarios "anti-Castro" le dicen "anti-Cuba", pero cuando no les conviene no. Ellos siempre quieren imponer "la ley del embudo," muy POV... El Jigue 5-24-06
Z: Basically the violations of NPOV from the extreme left are sins of omission and delition selectively employing any excuse they can find. El Jigue 5-24-06
As to the United Kingdom, there are many things wrong that need to be pointed out and should be pointed out along with the even greater numbers of positive things. However the one that I find most humorous is the unavoidable biological consequence of selecting proven prolific breeders to rule (abiet constitionally), because under circumstances of this kind of selection, philandering and adultery are natural consequences. However, that is far better than the Sultanate of Turkey... Still think what a calming effect Royal Hareems would have if they were opened in Buckingham Palace, then all we would see in public would be very sleepy royals. xe xe El Jigue 5-24-06
Material about whether Castro is corrupt or not belongs at Fidel Castro, not here. This is a general introductory article about Cuba, not about its head of state. Adam 02:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Below are my proposed paragraphs for the Health and Education sections. The idea as discussed above is to the remove controversial "views" and statements which are now in the subarticles. The other three controversial sections are Economy, Government and Politics and Human Rights.
WHO merely collects Cuban government data and publishes it without verification. As to comparisons with Western industrialized countries, Cuba was there once but is there no longer. El Jigue 5-25-06
One health advantage of the Cuban governments programs is the banning of beef. Beef may only be eaten twice a year "“Ley Seca Ganadera” "Decreto 225", and there are severe penalties (Legislación Penal de Cuba Materia Ganadera, CAPITULO XVI SACRIFICIO ILEGAL DE GANADO MAYOR Y VENTA DE SUS CARNES ARTICULO 240.1) if this rule infringed [44].
Comments below.-- Zleitzen 06:43, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Wow....health care and education sounds great in Cuba. There must be a lot of people risking their lives trying to get to Cuba so they can live in this paradise. Probably a lot of Floridians try to get there by boat, hoping for a chance to live in such a wonderful social system where the people are so well provided for. Drogo Underburrow 07:22, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Not bad. Seems fairly NPOV. Ultramarine 11:33, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Zleitzen's attempt at irony is not much of an answer to Drogo, who makes the obvious point that a million or so Cubans have failed to accept that state-provided healthcare and education are adequate compensation for the loss of political liberty and economic opportunity and have chosen to leave, often at great personal risk (as Elian Gonzalez's mother). There are a variety of responses he could make to this, but silly references to school uniforms is not a very telling one. Adam 11:34, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
My statement used irony to make a point. It didn't use sarcasm, and wasn't trolling. The point was that the material is completely biased, painting a falsely rosy picture. People do not risk their lives simply for political freedom. They risk their lives because they seek better living conditions as well. Conversely, no one is trying to escape TO Cuba; if things are so great there how do you explain people trying to leave and no one trying to enter? Obviously the vand should be re-written. Drogo Underburrow 17:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Drogo: That is not exactly true some spies have fled to Cuba, most recent and most strangely Rafi Eitan, an Israeli Mossad Agent who is sought by the FBI. and is thinking of "investing" in the island [45] [46] El Jigue 5-25-06
Bruce: Ay Vey! Who died and left you WP G-d! the statement was offered in rebuttal because Cuba, whether you believe or not is a closed society and statistics are what the Cuban government or Castro says they are, thus some balance or logical inferences are needed to stay NPOV. BTW George Galloway is off to Cuba again, defending Castro much the same way he defended Saddam Hussein [47]. El Jigue 5-25-06
Bruce I see So what are we going to do with data that is derived only from Cuban official sources, which are not subject to review, and is printed as is in supranational organizations at least one which as noted previously is simply omitting Cuban data. El Jigue 5-25-06
Alternate data sources on the Cuban Economy and other aspects of contemporary Cuba can be found in the volumes of "Cuba in Transition" e.g. [48] El Jigue 5-25-06
Hey all, I moved the page List of countries with the highest suicide rates to List of countries by suicide rate. Can someone change it in the article so as to avoid the double redirect?
Also, in reading the section about suicide rates, the article currently states a rate in Cuba of 18.2 per 100,000. The list that I just moved however (based on WHO statistics which, of course, have their bias) has a number double that - 36.5. -- will 07:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
It would seem that this list compiled from unexamined data from each countries'
own statistics (as apparently the practice for WHO) see data on Iran. Wikipedia Kazakhstan which presents Nazarbaev as an elected leader (but he has been in power 15 years) while another site
[50] writes:"Kazakhstan's President, Nursultan Nazarbaev, has been involved in the country's politics since 1977 when he served as Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Kazakhstan. In April 1990, Nazarbaev became interim president of the newly independent Republic of Kazakhstan, and was later elected to the post in the country's first national elections, held in December 1991. Nazarbaev was re-elected in 1999, after a 1995 referendum extended his term, and will be up for reelection again in 2006. The Kazakh executive branch was re-shuffled in June 2003 when then-Prime Minister Imanghaliy Tasmaghambetov resigned from his position. A new Prime Minister, Daniyal Akmetov, was appointed along with a new cabinet, including numerous holdovers from the previous administration. Parliamentary elections were held in 2004, during which the party led by Dariga Nazarbaev, the president's daughter, won 11 percent of the vote. Opposition parties have alleged that authorities committed election fraud, and one month after the elections were over, the speaker of the parliament resigned because he accused the election of being "manipulated." Civil rights in Kazakhstan seem quite poor
[51]. El Jigue 5-26-06
Thus all this seems to prove is that Wikipedia is very tolerant of "communist" (in marxist vernacular "revolutionary socialist") dictators and that Wikipedia in its present state cannot be considered a reliable source. El Jigue 5-26-06
It seems that the Rebel casualities of rebels during Attack on the palace, were about 31 out of 42 (34 Autenticos and the rest Directorio [52]. Marcos Rodríguez Alfonso (militant communist) betrayed some survivors and was later shot by Castro when that became public. El Jigue 5-29-06
you might as well add this to the Catergory:United States. Now it is just U.S. rhetoric like everything else on the Internet.
Z: there are large gaps in this coverage most notably removed materials from the 1930, dealing with Sumner Welles and his successor William Wieland (aka (Guillermo) Arturo Montenegro). In addition, Cuban/Soviet Union contacts should not be ignored. These contacts between the Cuban communist parties and the Communist International based in the Soviet Union are probably worth reinserting including references to the key Stalin Agent Abraham Semjovitch (Yunger Semjovich aka Fabio Grobart. Alberto Blanco) one of the founders of the Stalinist version of the Cuban communist party, [53] [54], [55] [56], [57]. you may notice that these citations come from both inside and outside Cuba, although I find the Cuban government sources unreliable. El Jigue 5-27-06
Z: Yes Cuban history is most baroque. Fabio Grobart Sunshine is, I believe, a son of the original Fabio Grobart El Jigue 5-27-06
Z: If you thought those references interesting read
[58] and if you want to get and idea why the FBI is trying to get hold of Walter Lippman's papers go to
[59]. El Jigue 5-27-06
Z: Professor Zayas-Bazan states the Castro met Fabio Grobart soon after returning from the Bogotazo [Zayas-Bazán, Eduardo 2006 (accessed 5-27-06) El Perfil Psicológico de Fidel Castro
[60] For more details including Castro's shooting of Leonel Gomez, Manolo Castro and possibly others see [Diaz Balart Rafael Lincoln 1960 (accessed 5-27-06) Testimony, Communist Threat to the United States Through the Caribbean U.S. Senate Subcommittee to Investigate the Administration of the Internal Security Act and Other Internal Security Laws, of the Committee on the Judiciary. Tuesday, May 3, 1960
[61] El Jigue 5-27-06
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There's a line that some editors seem to be pushing and approach that completely misunderstands the concept of "opposing views". Yes, differing views should be presented. But not every fact has an opposing view, except in the most contorted and ideological sophistry. If we say rhumba came from Cuba, we really don't need to present the "opposing view". And likewise for the fact it's south of Florida. Many facts that are social or political also have no sensible "opposing view"... and just presenting some fact that someone might take as a good thing about Cuba doesn't mean that we need some digression into a tirade as an "opposing view".
So Cuba has a 96% literacy nowadays (or whatever the referencable number is). There's no "opposing view" to that (unless some serious non-fringe position existed that it had a 50% literacy or a 150% literacy like the SD seems to expect). Sure, if estimates actually vary, we can say "95-98%" and footnote the various sources, or whatever. It's not an "opposing view" to argue tediously about what might have happened in regard to literacy under some other regime, or whatever counterfactual. It's not an "opposing view" to argue that the literacy rate "doesn't count" for whatever reason, it's just an editorial that doesn't belong here. Symmetrically, it would be POV nonsense to write that "The 96% literacy rate proves the revolution is really great". Our job is just to state the facts, readers can decide for themselves what "might have been" or "what it proves". Similarly for health indices, or abortion rates, or whatever.
Even most of the stuff around form-of-government has no sensible "opposing view". We don't follow the fact that Castro has been president, or that X% of legislators were PCC members, or whatever with some rant about how bad those facts are under the misleading guise that it's an "opposing view". It's fine to say that such-and-such are the constitutional procedures. And it's even mostly fine, if properly cited, to write that the de jure procedures are not fully followed de facto. But adding at the end "and that's bad" isn't an "opposing view", it's just an editorial (and it's just as much an editorial even if it's a direct quotation). LotLE× talk 19:59, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
This sentence had been in the article, and has gone back-and-forth a bit in the last day. I think that with a good citation it's nicely informative, but not essential certainly. What do folks think?
LotLE× talk 21:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
It is my understanding that it was disappointment to many inside Cuba too. El Jigue 5-14-06 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.240.227.15 ( talk • contribs) 22:20, 14 May 2006 (UTC).
If memory serves me right, shortly before the disintegration of the Soviet Union, Gorbachev informed Fidel Castro ("Fidel" from now on) that it would no longer purchase Cuban sugar at above world market prices. This was, in effect, a subsidy to the Fidelista govenment. Now, the Cuban economy began to fail, creating many hardships for the people. Some in Cuba (and in the United States) were hoping that the downward spiraling economy would precipitate Fidel's departure at the head of the government. A guy by the name of Oppenheimer wrote a book or, maybe, an article rearding this very same subject. I don't recall. In any case, the alternative to Fidel was his brother, Raul; and the people fear him. Meanwhile, Fidel changed the emphasis of the Cuban economy from agricultural to that of tourism, where it stands today. Thus, he has been able to remain in power to the disappointment of the exiles and the disidents. Robert Melbo 05/27/06
Apparently Seguridad del Estado had nothing to do with that Eh! what? El Jigue 5-27-06
The article states, [Cuba's] culture and customs draw from several sources including ... the island’s close proximity to the United States.
Just what Cuban customs have the United States as its source? What aspect of Cuban culture "draws" from the United States? Drogo Underburrow 02:09, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
None of these are fundamental to culture. Culture is much deeper. The Spanish and African heritage is fundamental to Cuba. The fact that Cubans like a sport invented in the U.S. is not an indication that U.S. culture is a part of Cuba. Neither is Cuban radio playing an American song, nor the celebration of Mother's Day. That Cubans watch CSI means that they are exposed to U.S. culture, and that may in the long run change their culture; but one should point to studies then, not make bald assertions. Drogo Underburrow 06:57, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
this line of ciritism needs to be addressed.
The Cuban American National Foundation and Lawrence Solomon of the Urban Renaissance Institute claim that Cuba masks the truth behind the Cuban health care system. They argue that real Cuban healthcare is abysmal and that what is shown to non-Cuban foreigners is a healthcare system unavailable to the average Cuban. [5] [6] [7] The National Review has made similar criticisms.
This has been deleted multiple times by left wing censors who don't want the information out there. I call bullshit on this censorship. Just because you actually think universal health care can work doesnt mean you have to delete information that suggests it will not. Cut it out.
btw, Milton Friedman gave the economic arguement on why left wing socialists tend to censor information and why capitalists typically will not. Read his book Capitalism and Freedom to figure out why. ( Gibby 03:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC))
Return-Path: <wiki@wikimedia.org> Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 03:52:57 GMT Message-Id: <200605150352.k4F3qvq1023822@localhost.localdomain> X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: apache set sender to wiki@wikimedia.org using -f To: Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters <wikipedia@gnosis.cx> Subject: Wikipedia e-mail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MediaWiki mailer From: KDRGibby <kdrgibby81@yahoo.com>
you are fucking stupid. That is not POV material. My god. You are an idiot and wiki is full of people like you. Stop censoring information and making up bullshit excuses.
It looks like Drogo Underburrow is intent on repeating KDRGibby's 3RR violation. Not there quite yet, but I'll be sure to report it if or when he violates. KDRGibby, appropriately, was blocked for a month—but that's mostly because of prior probation. I assume Drogo's block would be for less time. LotLE× talk 04:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Lulu: Yeh YEh and then you can purge him, thus proving his point of view is inaccurate. El Jigue 5-27-06
Three revert rule violation on Cuba ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Drogo_Underburrow ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log):
Reported by: ~~~~
Comments:
I don't want to brush against 3RR myself, if someone else would restore the most recent vandalism by Drogo, that would be helpful. LotLE× talk 06:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The refs in this article is a complete mess, fix them to footnotes. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 03:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok, but this article is in content revert war, should be protected, or at least every stop editing for like a hour for formatting of refs. Remember we are trying to make this article better and all this revert war won't help. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 04:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
1) Somebody please make a new archive. 2) start a new page 3) write down the title of each chapter as they appear on the article. Comment only those sentences found in a particular chapter chapter. 4) don’t assume readers are stupid. Every single fact presented in the main text is followed by “explanations” meant to influence the readers. Since we have different POVs let’s present the facts as they are, and let the readers to make their own conclusions (e.g. suicide rates, life expectancy etc). Keep comparisons with other countries at minimum. It’s better to put things into context but this could be extremely misleading, keeping in mind you can chose your examples as you wish. If not possible at least keep comparing the same countries.-- Anticom 04:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I have protected the page to stop this revert-warring. You need to discuss on the talk page first before reverting another editor's additions like that, and if the additions are controversial, you should post them here first and try to reach consensus. We've already received enough negative publicity for revert wars on this article (see the link at the top of this talk page), and I really do hope to see better behavior from all of you in the future. -- Cyde Weys 08:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Referenced material from one side systematically removed. Please read Wikipedia:NPOV:
Ultramarine! Maybe you should go to Cuba and see for yourself how the Cuban health care system works! O, wait, you live in the US, so that means your country, which is a "free country", dosn't let you travel to Cuba! That is Freedom, indeed! What is democracy? The Government of Fidel Castro has huge support from its people, that is more than you can say about the Bush regime. Malcolm X said a lot of good things. Here is a quote about the US view towards goverments in countries that they don't like:"As soon as they get the mass of their people behind them, they're dictaros. As soon as they have unity of their people in their country, they're a dictator." - Bronks 12:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The fact that US citizens cannot travel to Cuba, and the 'freedom' irony of that policy is not original research. [12] BruceHallman 13:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Isn't it ironic that you point to a US State Dept. website in the same sentence as you advocate to keep the issue of the US travel ban to Cuba out of the Cuba article? Obviously, US and Cuba relations are intertwined. Also, objectively, how can an editor determine the credibility of the 'Fear and Freedom' article to which you pointed? How is an editor (or US citizen) to determine what, if any, of the US State Dept. material is propaganda? Wikipedia aside, if a US citizen wanted to see first hand the conditions in Cuba and not necessarily rely on information provided by the State Department, is that allowed? BruceHallman 15:13, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
It is not illigal for American Citizens to enter Cuba, from a Cuban point of view. The problem for the Americans is to get pass their own governemnt... All Americans I know that have gone to Cuba, (and I do know a couple), have had to go through Mexico or Canada, or some other country that that is more "free" than the US. I susspect Oliver Stone had to do the same thing. Bronks 16:51, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The web site "Real Cuba" is presenting written and photographic material on the support of the upper class to Castro's revolution [22].
Other material presented discusses labor rights in Cuba during the first half of the 20th century. El Jigue 5-15-06
Sadly, the "Real Cuba" is a propaganda site which does not meet wikipedia's demand for verifiable sources. -- Beardo 06:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi all, I'm back after getting accidentally caught up in a Castro-esque round up of dissidents and being blocked in error. Here are my thoughts:
"Referenced material from one side systematically removed. Please read Wikipedia:NPOV"
-- Zleitzen 03:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Just to be clear, here is the referenced material from one side systematically removed.:
The only sourced objectin is this: [28]. However, this source does not deny the already mentioned problem with public health care system. Also, from the source: "Low pay of doctors, Poor facilities—buildings in poor state of repair, Poor provision of equipment, Frequent absence of essential drugs,Concern regarding freedom of choice both for patient and doctor" Thus, no excuse for ignoring Wikipedia:Neutrality and selectively deleting the views of one side. Ultramarine 10:25, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Please delete the table. Reasons: 1) It’s ugly. Kills the look of the entire page. I haven’t see on any other WP page something similar (not that I read all of them). 2) It’s redundant. What is the point of the link you provide if you have the same table twice? 3) It’s propagandistic. Look, I understand the pro-Castro group is desperate to present Castro/communism in a triumphalistic way but this is not the most effective way to do it. Despite what you may believe I have no problem with presenting good stuff about Castro/communism as long they're real. And health (not everything) is one of the few good things that happen on that island for real. 4) Move the data to Table 1. It will have a bigger impact, plus will look good. 5) In exchange (Jesus, we’re negotiating now) I can tell you about a real achievement of Cuban health.-- Anticom 04:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Several pages of text were deleted instead of being archived, the majority was nothing that I wrote and that I had nothing to do with.
The lame justification was: "too much, to archive".
I added all of this text to archive09. Travb 05:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Surely the page should have the protection comment - why was that removed ? -- Beardo 07:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
The problem is the systematic deletion of the views of one side. See the "Neutrality" section above. Or see The Dream Deferred: Fear and Freedom in Fidel’s Cuba. Ultramarine 11:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Disputed points:
At this point, we have one claim without a source and one claim with a source. I suggest we put both claims in the article; and provide the source for the latter claim. Meanwhile, let's dig into the former claim. Maybe Bruce can find a source for that, too? -- Uncle Ed 13:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I think I understand both these ideas, Bruce. Sorry, my phrasing and understanding were both poor! Let me try again:
Disputed points:
Bruce, does this state the dispute more accurately? -- Uncle Ed 19:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Request for mediation rejected, per post here. With the disputed ' sentence ' presently omitted from the introduction, perhaps a need for mediation is moot. Also, the second item to be mediated was civility, and at present, civility seems improved too. But, the third and fourth items involved respect for alternate points of view, and this still seems to have room for improvement. BruceHallman 16:07, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
One of the problems of comparison of health and education statistics is that international agencies UN WHO etc accept without verification the statistics provided by each government. This may work if there are agencies in free opposition to present government, however when there is not...this data must be taken with "a grain of salt."
The same applies to internal dissent which is hard to verify in countries such as Cuba where dissent is called "desacato" or disrespect and such is a crime. In a similar fashion, opposition or support cannot be measured by public demonstrations which are readily repressed or enhanced by massive government response. El Jigue 5-16-06
As discussed previously, there are systematic deletion of the views of one side. See the "Neutrality" section above. Or see The Dream Deferred: Fear and Freedom in Fidel’s Cuba.
In addition, there is refusal to follow Wikipedia:Cite sources. Thus, while deleting well-referenced arguments, unreferenced arguments removed according to Wikipedia policy are added back, still without references, in order to support one side. For example "currently has more doctors serving internationally than the World Health Organization." "Cuba has over 71,000 doctors" "The curriculum in primary and secondary schools is based upon principles of hard work, self-discipline and love of country. Students are required to work in agriculture three times a week" "Cuba is in the top quintile in worldwide comparisons of major health indicators such as doctors per capita, life expectancy, infant mortality; possibly worse in nutritional quality." "Cuba attracts paying "health tourists" who wish to obtain medical services, often at lower cost than the same procedures in their home countries." Ultramarine 16:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I see a history (and a future) of editorial conflict in this article that directly stems from editors fighting over 'hot button' POV topics. (This might be a radical idea), but perhaps the editors could agree to move the 'hot button' items out on the related pages Human rights in Cuba, etc.. Then the Cuba article than can be devoted to non-controversial items and the editorial conflict reduced. The alternative, is more (and never ending) editorial conflict editing this article. BruceHallman 19:34, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not advocating for POV forking. I am advocating for keeping both forks of the 'hot button' items out of the main article. In other words, more on Cuban music, cuisine, geography, climate, and less about good and bad things about Communism and Fidel Castro. That kind of editorial decision is neutral, because it is equal, and it serves to reduce edit fights. Can't we neutrally and mutually agree to avoid fighting, by staying away from 'hot button' topics pro and con while writing the Cuba article? BruceHallman 21:33, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Some benighted soul (s?) removed the history of Cuban medicine, hospitals etc and left only not readily verifiable statistics from Cuban government sources or from internation agencies which accept Cuban government statistics without verification. El Jigue 5-16-06
Z: Thank you. I finally found it. However, a better lead in could be provided e.g. [Main article: Public health in Cuba] provides historical context. In addition the caveat about the original source of statistics, is necessary in this section to avoid POV; "The public heathcare system in Cuba is free and universal. Its existence is frequently cited as a positive, legitimizing factor of the current socialist system. Cuba's healthcare system is widely regarded as one of the best in the world; however WHO data cited here comes directly from national health authorities of each country [1]. Thus, there are some who do not trust this data [2] [3]." El Jigue 5-16-06
One finds that despite careful suggestions by a number of people including myself, very serious errors continue to have a presence in the article. For instance, one cannot help but notice the really erroneous description of the participants in the line up for the Batista aborted 1952 election. This circumstance apparently caused by a plague of benighted souls, continues to make the Cuba article a laughing stock for the better informed. El Jigüe 5-16-0 6
Beardo, remember for some time now I am not allowed to insert stuff in the article, only in discussion. If you want confirmation of candidates who were to be placed on the 1952 ballot look up:
Reira Hernandez, Mario 1974. Cuba Republicana 1899-1958. Editorial AIP,Miami Fl Library of Congress number 74-16982
Try page 7 and following first El Jigue 5-16-06
Beardo read what is says, if you think it is correct, perhaps you should read the suggested citation. Frankly I do not register because it is my opinion that to do so would infer or suggest agreement with what is said in the article. El Jigue 5-17-06
This photograph keeps on getting removed. Why? It's a nice photograph, isn't it? Not politically biased or anything. So what's wrong with it? DirkvdM 18:32, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Z: It is my understanding, that particular photo shows one of the then newly painted houses in Bayamo. In that sense the house has been spruced up for the photo. Perhaps it was removed by the person who owns the house and lost its use to Castro. El Jigue 5-17-06
Interesting Bruce, since the house seems to be on flat land as if on the plains of the Cauto not the hills of Trinidad, the road appears straight smooth and wide not cobble stone, hilly and curved and with high sidewalks as one would expect in Trinidad. Besides that same source erroneously identified that truck as participating in the assault on Moncada in Santiago instead of the Presidential Palace in Havana. Again I wonder if somebody is feeding false information. Could you find out more? BTW a painted house is a rarity in Cuba. El Jigue 5-21-06
Dirk the truck photo in question as was noted from another source was used in the attack on the Presidencial Palace in Havana by the Directorio Estudiantil and the Organizacion Autentica in 1957, not by the Castro attack on the Guillermon Moncada Barracks in 1953. As to the photograph of the automobile could someone tell me the street in Trinidad where it is said it was taken, for it looks quite like the Calixto Garcia street in Bayamo. However, I looked at your image closely and the sidewalks (pavement) seem narrow, that would be unusual except in downtown Bayamo. The elaborate colonial balconies also support the your statement that the photos was taken in Trinidad, because Bayamo was burned in 1868 and essentially a war zone from 1868-1898. BTW A jigue is not a troll, for trolls supposedly live underbridges, while jigues live in jungle lagoons. In addition jigues are legendary well endowed seducers of women while trolls are said to be cannibals. El Jigue 5-23-06.
Could contributors propose titles for subarticles below, in order to leave the article open and free from imposed ideological statements and views. It should be the case that users are able to contribute interesting and notable details on the island and people of Cuba (such as the photo above) without it getting lost in the type of editing which appears to have been started by our esteemed colleague Dr Carr. Note that there are already subarticles to each section so much of the controversial material can be shipped there, please check all articles relating to Cuba before making a suggestion because there are many. There should be a US/Cuba relations article which I know a number of users have signed up to. And there may also need to be others where bi-polar positions can be explored. User thoughts?-- Zleitzen 19:18, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Still, there may be problames regarding what material should be in stubs in the main article. I have previously tried to move POV from one side to the subarticles when other POVs were removed, but this was immediately reverted, leaving only one POV in the main article. So again Zleitzen, what is your proposal for the stub for, for example, "Government and politics" or "Public Health"? Ultramarine 19:42, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Brucehallman writes Human Rights, Politics & Government/Elections, Public Health, Economy and Education qualify as contentious sections.
Can I conclude from this that it would be malicious of me to infer from the above, that it appears only those sections of the main article, that pass muster by the extreme left are not removed to the suggested purgatories. In addition one notices that Gibby's, more than a little to my right politically, has once again lost access, this time permanently. El Jigue 5-17-06
Forking eh! Apparently whoever those who thought up this neologism are less familiar with middle English and certain word roots. El Jigue 5-17-06
It seems that Cuban sugar crop production has fallen to even lower levels [37]. El Jigue 5-17-06
Let's remove "Cuba’s relationship with the neighboring United States has often involved political conflict."
It doesn't belong in a short description of a country but in international relations. It also hyperemphasizes the conflicts and suggests that the government of Cuba is to blame. Teemu Ruskeepää 15:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Teemu Of course the Cuban government is not to blame, for to blame it would be like blaming a shark for eating people. That is its declared nature, intent and actions... El Jigue 5-20-06
Ok Teemu anything you say even if it violates marxist internationalist thought. El Jigue 5-21-06.
Z: Recent archeological and growing biochemical evidence shows that the Taino cultural and biological influence on Cuban culture is far more persistent than was previously thought, or previously proclaimed "Manda abuela para la cocina, que viene visitas." One only has to look at place names in the Cuban countryside to realize that.
Even Jigues may have existed [39] [40].
The Taino are part of /afin to the Island Arawak. Greater and greater interest in the Arawak culture is arising with each new archeological discovery in Amazonia [41] [www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1631806/posts] [42]. Some are even considering the Arawak (Arahuaco, Arauaco)) as the matrix from which the great pre-Colombian American civilizations arose. El Jigue 5-21-06
The Cuba-United States relations article is now open for business, it presently has some material taken from Cuban foreign relations so needs some work.-- Zleitzen 14:22, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Greetings comrades, I am back. As you see I have been visiting the glorious former German Democratic Republic, a country which just like Cuba held wonderful democratic elections, at which all the SED candidates were elected with 99% of the vote and where the people loved the DDR regime under kindly old Erich Honnecker so very much (just like the Cubans love Fidel), because it gave them all that wonderful free health care etc etc and built a lovely wall to protect them from the wicked capitalist west. Or so it seemed until that terrible day in 1989 when it turned out the ungrateful German workers and peasants really wanted bourgeois democracy and capitalist decadence after all. Meanwhile, I see the Fidelistas have been busy reinserting their pathetic lies in my absence, and much needs to be done at this article and the other Cuba articles. Once I have caught up with some real election results at my website, combat will be resumed. Adam 08:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Teemu removed this discussion:
Theater of the absurd
Teemu Ruskeepää| writes: "Let's remove "Cuba’s relationship with the neighboring United States has often involved political conflict."" - "It doesn't belong in a short description of a country but in international relations. It also hyperemphasizes the conflicts and suggests that the government of Cuba is to blame. Teemu Ruskeepää 15:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)"
And yet reality is :
"Castro chastised the Bush administration for creating a transition plan for a post-Castro Cuba and accused the administration of threatening his country and its ally Venezuela with U.S. military exercises under way in the Caribbean. U.S. officials say the exercises have nothing to do with Cuba or Venezuela. " [43]
(Also of note is that even the UN is having difficulty accepting Cuban government data: "Cuba uses its own method to calculating economic growth that takes into account the country's vast social safety net and subsidized services. That makes Cuba's growth figures difficult to compare with those of other countries, prompting the United Nation's Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean to leave the island's numbers out of its report last year. " from same ABC report)
One concludes from all this that to even infer that the Cuban government is involved in "political" conflict is to violate "NPOV" or neutral point of view. Thus were one to call the world round would violate the neutrality because some still persist in calling the world flat. El Jigue 5-22-06 (reposted after deletion 5-23-06)
One notes that removal of discussion violates Wikipedia rules El Jigue 5-23-06
Z: No I was contesting the photographers memory of the place, unlike the circumstance of the truck illustration which was obviously incorrect. Here the photographer seems to be correct, see my acknowledgement of this in previous discussion. However, one may note that usually only those who view Castro in a favorable light are allowed to photograph street scenes in Cuba. On the other hand, were I to return to Cuba I would be imprisoned. Thus statements of this photographer cannot be considered NPOV either. However, one notes that in the other images taken by this photographer, judging by the palm thatched roofs, bohios (commonly condemned by many in the Cuban government fifty years ago) can still be seen; so much for improvements in housing. El Jigue 5-24-06
Werlau, Maria C. (2005). "Fidel Castro, Inc.: A Global Conglomerate" (PDF). Cuba in Transition. 15: 376–395.
Just some morsels. Read the best details in the article. :) Ultramarine 03:41, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Bruce! And the above material cited by Ultramarine is not about Cuba????? El Jigue 5-24-06
Cubano. A esta gente cuando le conviene los comentarios "anti-Castro" le dicen "anti-Cuba", pero cuando no les conviene no. Ellos siempre quieren imponer "la ley del embudo," muy POV... El Jigue 5-24-06
Z: Basically the violations of NPOV from the extreme left are sins of omission and delition selectively employing any excuse they can find. El Jigue 5-24-06
As to the United Kingdom, there are many things wrong that need to be pointed out and should be pointed out along with the even greater numbers of positive things. However the one that I find most humorous is the unavoidable biological consequence of selecting proven prolific breeders to rule (abiet constitionally), because under circumstances of this kind of selection, philandering and adultery are natural consequences. However, that is far better than the Sultanate of Turkey... Still think what a calming effect Royal Hareems would have if they were opened in Buckingham Palace, then all we would see in public would be very sleepy royals. xe xe El Jigue 5-24-06
Material about whether Castro is corrupt or not belongs at Fidel Castro, not here. This is a general introductory article about Cuba, not about its head of state. Adam 02:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Below are my proposed paragraphs for the Health and Education sections. The idea as discussed above is to the remove controversial "views" and statements which are now in the subarticles. The other three controversial sections are Economy, Government and Politics and Human Rights.
WHO merely collects Cuban government data and publishes it without verification. As to comparisons with Western industrialized countries, Cuba was there once but is there no longer. El Jigue 5-25-06
One health advantage of the Cuban governments programs is the banning of beef. Beef may only be eaten twice a year "“Ley Seca Ganadera” "Decreto 225", and there are severe penalties (Legislación Penal de Cuba Materia Ganadera, CAPITULO XVI SACRIFICIO ILEGAL DE GANADO MAYOR Y VENTA DE SUS CARNES ARTICULO 240.1) if this rule infringed [44].
Comments below.-- Zleitzen 06:43, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Wow....health care and education sounds great in Cuba. There must be a lot of people risking their lives trying to get to Cuba so they can live in this paradise. Probably a lot of Floridians try to get there by boat, hoping for a chance to live in such a wonderful social system where the people are so well provided for. Drogo Underburrow 07:22, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Not bad. Seems fairly NPOV. Ultramarine 11:33, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Zleitzen's attempt at irony is not much of an answer to Drogo, who makes the obvious point that a million or so Cubans have failed to accept that state-provided healthcare and education are adequate compensation for the loss of political liberty and economic opportunity and have chosen to leave, often at great personal risk (as Elian Gonzalez's mother). There are a variety of responses he could make to this, but silly references to school uniforms is not a very telling one. Adam 11:34, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
My statement used irony to make a point. It didn't use sarcasm, and wasn't trolling. The point was that the material is completely biased, painting a falsely rosy picture. People do not risk their lives simply for political freedom. They risk their lives because they seek better living conditions as well. Conversely, no one is trying to escape TO Cuba; if things are so great there how do you explain people trying to leave and no one trying to enter? Obviously the vand should be re-written. Drogo Underburrow 17:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Drogo: That is not exactly true some spies have fled to Cuba, most recent and most strangely Rafi Eitan, an Israeli Mossad Agent who is sought by the FBI. and is thinking of "investing" in the island [45] [46] El Jigue 5-25-06
Bruce: Ay Vey! Who died and left you WP G-d! the statement was offered in rebuttal because Cuba, whether you believe or not is a closed society and statistics are what the Cuban government or Castro says they are, thus some balance or logical inferences are needed to stay NPOV. BTW George Galloway is off to Cuba again, defending Castro much the same way he defended Saddam Hussein [47]. El Jigue 5-25-06
Bruce I see So what are we going to do with data that is derived only from Cuban official sources, which are not subject to review, and is printed as is in supranational organizations at least one which as noted previously is simply omitting Cuban data. El Jigue 5-25-06
Alternate data sources on the Cuban Economy and other aspects of contemporary Cuba can be found in the volumes of "Cuba in Transition" e.g. [48] El Jigue 5-25-06
Hey all, I moved the page List of countries with the highest suicide rates to List of countries by suicide rate. Can someone change it in the article so as to avoid the double redirect?
Also, in reading the section about suicide rates, the article currently states a rate in Cuba of 18.2 per 100,000. The list that I just moved however (based on WHO statistics which, of course, have their bias) has a number double that - 36.5. -- will 07:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
It would seem that this list compiled from unexamined data from each countries'
own statistics (as apparently the practice for WHO) see data on Iran. Wikipedia Kazakhstan which presents Nazarbaev as an elected leader (but he has been in power 15 years) while another site
[50] writes:"Kazakhstan's President, Nursultan Nazarbaev, has been involved in the country's politics since 1977 when he served as Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Kazakhstan. In April 1990, Nazarbaev became interim president of the newly independent Republic of Kazakhstan, and was later elected to the post in the country's first national elections, held in December 1991. Nazarbaev was re-elected in 1999, after a 1995 referendum extended his term, and will be up for reelection again in 2006. The Kazakh executive branch was re-shuffled in June 2003 when then-Prime Minister Imanghaliy Tasmaghambetov resigned from his position. A new Prime Minister, Daniyal Akmetov, was appointed along with a new cabinet, including numerous holdovers from the previous administration. Parliamentary elections were held in 2004, during which the party led by Dariga Nazarbaev, the president's daughter, won 11 percent of the vote. Opposition parties have alleged that authorities committed election fraud, and one month after the elections were over, the speaker of the parliament resigned because he accused the election of being "manipulated." Civil rights in Kazakhstan seem quite poor
[51]. El Jigue 5-26-06
Thus all this seems to prove is that Wikipedia is very tolerant of "communist" (in marxist vernacular "revolutionary socialist") dictators and that Wikipedia in its present state cannot be considered a reliable source. El Jigue 5-26-06
It seems that the Rebel casualities of rebels during Attack on the palace, were about 31 out of 42 (34 Autenticos and the rest Directorio [52]. Marcos Rodríguez Alfonso (militant communist) betrayed some survivors and was later shot by Castro when that became public. El Jigue 5-29-06
you might as well add this to the Catergory:United States. Now it is just U.S. rhetoric like everything else on the Internet.
Z: there are large gaps in this coverage most notably removed materials from the 1930, dealing with Sumner Welles and his successor William Wieland (aka (Guillermo) Arturo Montenegro). In addition, Cuban/Soviet Union contacts should not be ignored. These contacts between the Cuban communist parties and the Communist International based in the Soviet Union are probably worth reinserting including references to the key Stalin Agent Abraham Semjovitch (Yunger Semjovich aka Fabio Grobart. Alberto Blanco) one of the founders of the Stalinist version of the Cuban communist party, [53] [54], [55] [56], [57]. you may notice that these citations come from both inside and outside Cuba, although I find the Cuban government sources unreliable. El Jigue 5-27-06
Z: Yes Cuban history is most baroque. Fabio Grobart Sunshine is, I believe, a son of the original Fabio Grobart El Jigue 5-27-06
Z: If you thought those references interesting read
[58] and if you want to get and idea why the FBI is trying to get hold of Walter Lippman's papers go to
[59]. El Jigue 5-27-06
Z: Professor Zayas-Bazan states the Castro met Fabio Grobart soon after returning from the Bogotazo [Zayas-Bazán, Eduardo 2006 (accessed 5-27-06) El Perfil Psicológico de Fidel Castro
[60] For more details including Castro's shooting of Leonel Gomez, Manolo Castro and possibly others see [Diaz Balart Rafael Lincoln 1960 (accessed 5-27-06) Testimony, Communist Threat to the United States Through the Caribbean U.S. Senate Subcommittee to Investigate the Administration of the Internal Security Act and Other Internal Security Laws, of the Committee on the Judiciary. Tuesday, May 3, 1960
[61] El Jigue 5-27-06