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There's a line that some editors seem to be pushing and approach that completely misunderstands the concept of "opposing views". Yes, differing views should be presented. But not every fact has an opposing view, except in the most contorted and ideological sophistry. If we say rhumba came from Cuba, we really don't need to present the "opposing view". And likewise for the fact it's south of Florida. Many facts that are social or political also have no sensible "opposing view"... and just presenting some fact that someone might take as a good thing about Cuba doesn't mean that we need some digression into a tirade as an "opposing view".
So Cuba has a 96% literacy nowadays (or whatever the referencable number is). There's no "opposing view" to that (unless some serious non-fringe position existed that it had a 50% literacy or a 150% literacy like the SD seems to expect). Sure, if estimates actually vary, we can say "95-98%" and footnote the various sources, or whatever. It's not an "opposing view" to argue tediously about what might have happened in regard to literacy under some other regime, or whatever counterfactual. It's not an "opposing view" to argue that the literacy rate "doesn't count" for whatever reason, it's just an editorial that doesn't belong here. Symmetrically, it would be POV nonsense to write that "The 96% literacy rate proves the revolution is really great". Our job is just to state the facts, readers can decide for themselves what "might have been" or "what it proves". Similarly for health indices, or abortion rates, or whatever.
Even most of the stuff around form-of-government has no sensible "opposing view". We don't follow the fact that Castro has been president, or that X% of legislators were PCC members, or whatever with some rant about how bad those facts are under the misleading guise that it's an "opposing view". It's fine to say that such-and-such are the constitutional procedures. And it's even mostly fine, if properly cited, to write that the de jure procedures are not fully followed de facto. But adding at the end "and that's bad" isn't an "opposing view", it's just an editorial (and it's just as much an editorial even if it's a direct quotation). LotLE× talk 19:59, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Bruce,
Cuba has just posted the “Registro General de Disposiciones Jurídicas” (Register of the Judicial Dispositions), in other words the laws of Cuba. I just reviewed the information for Code 62 (Penal Code). I could not find any mention of a public law against homosexuality. Unfortunately, it is only in Spanish.
You may want to add it to the link section. The Website contains other information.
Respectfully,
Daniel ( http://www.unjc.cu/indice_referativo.htm)
The last remaining POV dispute box was in the Human Rights section. I reverted that section to a roughly stable version that existed prior to the last edit war. Obviously this is subject to collaboration and consensus, but I hope that it is a helpful baseline from which to start. BruceHallman 18:31, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that's about the 3rd time I've restored the link to " socialist republic" (which redirects to our Socialist state article). So I must now retire from the field. If other contributors insist on reverting that link I won't undo the revert any more for a couple of days.
But I wish you all would discuss changes here on the talk page, where they are easy to follow. I don't think the Edit Summary field is a place for a discussion. It's just to provide a quick note of what you were trying to do. Anything complicated, or non-obvious, or that needs further discussion really should go on the " discussion page". -- Uncle Ed 19:16, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
IMHO Socialist state (which is what Socialist republic redirs to) - appears to form a good basic explanation, plus is a better starting for exploring the concept (links to examples, short simple backgounder etc) Bridesmill 20:00, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for starting a new section, but it's not really about Sandy Berger. The thing that embarassed us with news reports is the edit war about whether Cuba is a " democracy" or not.
I daresay it may have something to do with various definitions of "democracy" being applied. Given that Sandy Berger was working for a non-Republican president, he's probably not a right-wing conservative but more likely expressing the general sense of what Americans mean when they say "democratic". The question is whether the American definition is applicable (or is the only relevant definition).
But it's not unclear. Berger is saying that Cuba doesn't qualify as being an American democracy. (And he's also scolding them for being the only one's in the neighborhood who don't qualify.) Perhaps we should elaborate on this.
On the other hand, many people feel that Communism is (or can be) "democratic". In university, I learned about something called " democratic centralism". And lots of Communist dictatorships take pains to call themselves the "democratic" republic of this or that. The most anti-democratic one of all is the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea. If Marxists want to apply the label of "democracy" to their totalitarian experiments, who's to say they are wrong?
However, it might help our readers (more than an edit war "helps" them) if we distinguished clearly between these competing definitions of democracy. How about a sidebar article just about that? -- Uncle Ed 19:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I read the Sandy Berger quote in context, a political spokesman for a political administration explaining a political policy that was being questioned as appearing politically duplicitous. In that context, the "Cuba is not a democracy" statement is obviously a shorthand political slogan, not a serious neutral encylopedic description. BruceHallman 20:53, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I have uploaded four images which could be used in this article. I don't have a scanner to upload my own, but these have all been released for use. Please give your opinion on these, or perhaps add one of your own! For reference, please see the finely tuned United States article. Myciconia 20:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Something that would be nice to have some more images of would be groups of "ordinary" people, which a lot of nation articles seem to have. There's a hint of that in the Chinatown picture, but something more would be nice. Maybe a street festival, or a group of schoolchildren, or a market. Ideally something that is in some way culturally specific (e.g. musicians playing characteristic instruments, or people preparing or eating characteristic foods). Anyone have or know of images along these lines? LotLE× talk 15:19, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I think we'll never agree if Cuba is a democracy, communist state or socialist republic. As a solution of compromise I propose the word Oligarchy. -- Anticom 04:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
If it hasn't changed in 45 years, then it's still a Communist state. If it has changed, then I apologize for not reading the entire article. -- Uncle Ed 21:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
(I've really got to stop trying to 'Wiki' contribute on the job, the thoughts of getting caught by my boss jummble my ideas and I usually hit send too fast.) ,-) The correction is- monarchies are generally not considered as republics, since a "monarchy" is considered more descriptive. But the UK could in someways be considered a republic as well based on the forementioned power they have over their Queen and her heirs these days. I have to also re-view some of my old-notes but I believe there are also several republics in Africa and Oceana with internal monarchies as well. CaribDigita 04:58, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
It's not a communist state - no such animal. The most 'neutral' authorities on this issue list Cuba as (variant phrasings of) Socialist State. The Socialist state article also explains well exactly what this label is on about. In terms of disservice to 'true' socialists - I assume you are talking 'socialist' as understood in places like Sweden, perhaps the NDP in Canada - those 'socialists' understand the difference (just as the Big L 'Liberals' in canada understand the difference between themselves and small l 'liberals' in the US). Bridesmill 19:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC) And no, not weven the USSR - lots of communists there, some of whom worked very hard to make communism a reality (note I did not say 'to make communist state a reality'). But they never acheieved it - Socialist Republic. Bridesmill 20:02, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
1)Cuba has changed significantly (prove this!) -- Anticom 19:41, 10 May ( a) not true! the following sentence is a copy/paste from EU website: "The form of government: Centralised political system, with identification between the Cuban Communist Party (PCC) and the state ( 1) such as? 2) not even USSR?) -- Anticom 19:41, 10 May
Will there be any complaints if I add a sentance or two on the
Godfrey-Milliken Bill
Helms-Burton Act? Does anyone know of any neutral sources outlining the effects of the embargo on the people?
Myciconia
01:18, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
There is clearly such a pro-castro, pro-cuban-government agenda being pushed here that it is sickening. From the Che mural and the "Cuba following Communism" section that was renamed solely for keeping THE UNNECESSARY AND CONTROVERSIAL OBSCURE GRAFITTI OF CHE, to the tone and overt phrasing of several sections including:
and:
So the United States caused castro to turn to communism... WHAT!? IS THE POV POLICE TAKING A NAP?!? -- Mcmachete 08:02, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
That's all been there for a long time Mcmachete, it was written by Adam.-- Zleitzen 08:15, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I guess I was so focused on other sections i missed it. That it's been there for a while and that Adam wrote it, though surprising, certainly do not excuse it. However, that's not all that's wrong, nor all I mentioned. Did the fact that a section was changed to accomodate a controversial and unnecessary image not sound any alarms to anyone? If not, my concern regarding the integrity of Wikipedia deepens. -- Mcmachete 08:27, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The photograph of the van is from the attack on the presidencial palace by non-Castro (mostly Autentico and Directorio: forces see a similar photo apparently of the same van at [3]). Look at the side of the van it says Havana not Santiago..... The Moncada attack was done in cars, and Castro's car got stuck at the entrance guard post and he never really entered. However, that little matter never enters into official histories. El Jigue 5-10-06
Z: The attack was by two non-Castro group's the Accion Autentica and the Directorio Estudiantil. One should never presume malice if there is another explantation, however, the corrections you are making always seem to favor Castro, it is not NPOV to let an innocent reader assume that the Palace was attacked by Castro forces. More than that some of the escaped attackers were betrayed to the Batista Secret police by a communist party member and killed soon afterwards. It does get worse, some of the attackers who were unable to reach the scene, tried to land in Cuba later, but again they were betrayed and all killed except one or two who ran off before hand and joined the Che Guevara's forces. Oh BTW I think you have a devious contributor (s) who is (are) inserting these erroneous little bits of information to make the whole article absurd. In case this is really so I will refrain from further comment for a while. EL Jigue 5-10-06
Thanks for your comments EJ. Please point out all errors that you see. -- Beardo 01:16, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
It might be wise to direct attention to the increasing number errors of fact in the article (e.g. date of declaration belligerency in WW II) than to adorn it with hagiography of the Che. El Jigüe 5-10-06
Well the Cuban Navy did sink one U-boat (much to the surprise of everybody including the U-Boat crew), and actively hunt others. Any map of vessels sunk will show that the Caribbean Sea was a major marine battle front in the undersea war. At least one German spy monitoring or trying to monitor sea traffic was caught and executed, other such under Admiral Canaris direction were more discrete and perhaps successful for a time. However, you are correct in that Cuba was more of a supply source because at that time prepared foods were often as high or higher than 12% sucrose. This was also important although quite distant to Soviet sea supply. Cubans did fight in US forces during the war and US bases such as San Antonio de Los Ba~nos were operating. However, it one compares this circumstance with that of most Latin American countries, possible with the exception of Venezuela, where there may have been actual U-boats in Maracaibo Bay, Cuba did participate far more than most. If my memory of reading is correct, some countries as Argentina were essentially on the side of the Axis. Remember the sinking of the Graf Spree (really a desperate scuttling) in Rio de la Plata. El Jigüe 5-10-06
Now perhaps we should look at the parties in 1940s 1944, and line up for the 1948 Cuban elections the least one could do is get the names straight. El Jigüe 5-10-06
The article reads "In the five years after 1959, around one million (about 10% of the population) Cubans immmigrated to the U.S. and there was a further surge of emigration in 1980 when Castro temporarily lifted restrictions on emigration (see Mariel Boatlift). Altogether about 2 million Cubans have emigrated since 1959."
I think immmigrated (sic) should be emigrated here. But the numbers look too high to me. Does anyone have sources ?
In the demographics section it says "over a million" - we should be consistent - one million, two million ?
This site - http://www.sela.org/public_html/AA2K2/eng/docs/coop/migra/spsmirdi12-02/spsmirdi12-2.htm - says "According to some sources between 1959 and 1999, 1,079,000 Cubans migrated to different countries. Today, the total Cuban population residing abroad is estimated to be above 1,400,000 people. The U.S. 1990 census registered 1,043,932 people of Cuban origin, while in the 2000 census that number totalled 1,241,685" - though that may not be definitive.
And this - http://www.genealogy.com/00000365.html - "During the 1950s, however, growing political unrest and economic uncertainty caused thousands of Cubans to flee the island for Miami and other Northern points. This exodus grew even larger after Fidel Castro seized control of the island on January 1, 1959, and began nationalizing large companies and confiscating the property of the upper middle class and wealthy. Between this date and the Cuban missile crisis in October 1962, more than 150,000 Cubans came to the United States." 150,000 up to October 1962 - did another 850,000 emigrate to the US in the following 15 months ? -- Beardo 00:18, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Cut from article:
Is there a source for this? Even a Cuban gov't source?
And what shall we do about the independent reports that say Cuba has a two-tier system which favor cash-paying tourists (and government officials) while providing substandard care to local citizens? (This is easily googled, please help me on this. Where's Adam when I need him?) -- Uncle Ed 01:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Those figures reflect CIA factbook - given bias, if there is an error with these I would expect it to be on the 'low' side, rather than a higher exageration. Bridesmill 01:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
This information needs to be added to this section (translated from Spanish):
Analysis and speculation as to why is perhaps not necessary, as it may lean to POV, but these numbers absolutely should be included. -- Mcmachete 07:57, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I looked to other pages (countries) and I didn't see any reference to the life expentacy and infant mortality. Why Cuba makes an exception? just to please pro-Castro group?-- Anticom 19:23, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Cuba has a higher suicide rate and a lower homicide rate that other similar countries, showing both is a potential neutralizing POV path, see my recent edit. Still, we are doomed if we must always fight about needing to condemn Cuba (or not) in the article. Steering away from controversy seems a better choice for a neutral path in this encyclopedia. BruceHallman 15:04, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
As much as it seems to pain you to present a complete and balanced picture of Cuba, Cuba's government has been internationally recognized many times over as routinely violating human rights, and thus Cuba's record on human rights merits a section. Simple as that. -- Mcmachete 21:12, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I read a exerpt of a book today. I have to write a paper for my international affairs conflict resolution class about America's history of exporting democracy, if it has succeeded, and what policy recommedations would I consider. I would like fellow wikipedians opinions, on this author's thesis about Cuba:
During the Clinton administration, the sentiment has been proclaimed on so many occasions by the president and other political leaders, and dutifully reiterated by the media, that the thesis: "Cuba is the only non-democracy in the Western Hemisphere" is now nothing short of received wisdom in the United States. Let us examine this thesis carefully for it has a highly interesting implication.
Throughout the period of the Cuban revolution, 1959 to the present, Latin American has witness a terrible parade of human rights violation--systematic, routine torture; legions of "disappeared" people; government-supported death squads picking off selected individuals; massacres en masse of peasants, students and other groups, shot down in cold blood. The worst perpetrators of these acts during all or part of this period have been the military associated paramilitary squads of El Salvador, Guatemala, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Colombia, Peru, Mexico, Uruguay, Haiti and Honduras.
Not even Cuba's worst enemies have charged the Castro government with any of these violations, and if one further considers education and health care--each guaranteed by the United Nations "Universal Declaration of Human Rights" and the "European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms"---"both of which," said President Clinton, "work better [in Cuba] than most other countries," then it would appear that during the more-than-40 years of its revolution, Cuba has enjoyed one of the best human-rights records in all of Latin America.
If, despite this record, the United States can insist that Cuba is the only "non-democracy" in the Western Hemisphere, we are left with the inescapable conclusion that this thing called "democracy", as seen from the White House, may have little or nothing to do with many of our most cherished human rights. Indeed, numerous pronouncements emanating from Washington officialdom over the years make plain that "democracy", at best, or at most, is equated solely with elections and civil liberties. Not even jobs, food and shelter are part of the equation. Thus, a nation with hordes of hungry, homeless, untended sick, barely literate, unemployed and/or tortured people, whose loved ones are being disappeared and/or murdered with state connivance, can be said to be living in a "democracy"-its literal Greek meaning of "rule of the people" implying that this is the kind of life the people actually want-provided that every two years or four years they have the right to go to a designated place and put an X next to the name of one or another individual who promise to relieve their miserable condition, but who will, typically, do virtually nothing of the kind; and provided further that in this society there is at least a certain minimum of freedom--how much being in large measure a function of one's wealth--for one to express one's view about the powers-that-be and the workings of the society, without undue fear of punishment, regardless of whether expressing these views has any influence whatsoever over the way things are.
It is not by chance that the United States has defined democracy in this narrow manner. Throughout the Cold War, the absence of "free and fair" multiparty election and adequate civil liberties were what marked the Soviet foe and its satellites. There nations, however, provided their citizens with a relatively decent standard of living insofar as employment, food, health care, education, etc., without omnipresent Brazilian torture or Guatemalan death squads. At the same time, many of America's Third World allies in the Cold War--members of what Washington liked to refer to as "The Free World"--were human-rights disaster areas, who could boast of little other than the 60 second democracy of the polling booth and a tolerance for dissenting opinion so long as it didn't cut to close to the bone or threaten to turn into a movement.
...
Thus it is, that Americans are raised to fervently believe that no progress can be made in any society in the absence of elections. They are taught to equate elections with democracy, and democracy with elections. And no matter how cynical they've grown about electoral politics at home, few of them harbor any doubt that the promotion of free and fair elections has long been a basic and sincere tenant of American foreign policy.
In light of this, let us examine the actual historical record...
Signed Travb 16:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Two points for Travb:
So if you want to write a Wikipedia article on Human rights in Latin America or Human rights in the Americas (including US & Canada), I assume you'll be focusing only on right-wing violations or problems in the democratic countries. I do hope, though, that you'll allow other contributors to write about the left-wing violations, such as:
Wikipedia is not the place for progaganda, but for writing accurate articles. Would you please be accurate? -- Uncle Ed 22:47, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Signed: Travb 11:30, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
What "war crimes" are you talking about, Travb? Be specific. CJK 00:35, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Signed: Travb 11:56, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
The War crimes of US are the first to come to my mind, but it truly doesn't matter one way or another whether I list 10 or 100 examples, does it?
Signed: Travb 11:52, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
For those who respond, please don't waste my time and fall into this common top 10 dodge list:
Let me repeat myself, because inevitably, as the Cuban wikipedian aboved showed, despite pointing out a falacy of logic above, people will continue to argue the same fallacy of logic right below the falacy of logic. And I repeat:
Please don't waste my time and fall into this common top 10 dodge list:
How long before some patriotic American states that this discussion has become off topic and suggests that the topic cease here?
Signed: Travb 11:52, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
I hear so many of you chatter away at the various biases present in the article which are pro-communist and pro-castro. Well personally I think the article reeks and smacks of anti-communist mcarthyism advocating many moderate left wing governments while convieniently failing to mention the sucess and popularity of Bolivia and Venezuela's governmental leaders (enemies of America can't be possibly included). On top of that the article is becoming increasively difficult to change. It seems that cuba is "an axis of evil" in the article's eyes and there's little we can do to change that. I ask all of you can we not even maintain a remotely neutral stance on this nation's political history? 09:45, 11 May 2006 82.198.250.69
I tweaked the one sentence "In modern times, the dominance of Cuba’s Communist Party has lead to periods of political isolation and large-scale emigration from the island. ". About 'political isolation', which is odd to say considering the UN votes opposing the US embargo. The 'political isolation' has not been with the world, but rather isolation from the US. Also, the issue of why there has been 'emigration' is not simply fleeing the Communist Party, but I think that objectively, much, if not more of the emigration has been for economic reasons. Also, the description of 'large-scale' needs to be verified and quantified. For instance, is it 'large-scale' relative to Mexico<=>USA? BruceHallman 15:23, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Cuba is the most populated island in the Caribbean and has a distinct mixture of culture and customs. Much of this draws directly from the period of Spanish colonialism, the introduction of African slaves and the island’s close proximity to the United States. The island has a tropical climate moderated by the surrounding waters, which makes Cuba highly susceptible to devastating Hurricanes. In modern times, the Cuba’s Communist Party has controlled the government of the country. Cuba’s relationship with the neighbouring United States has been a continued source of political discord. -- moved from article, going to explain why it was deleted - Drogo Underburrow 16:47, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Part of it was kept. "Cuba is the most populated island in the Caribbean"; this is appropriate. The next part of the sentence was not, as "has a distinct mixture of culture and customs" doesn't really say anything. More explanation n its way... - Drogo Underburrow 16:51, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
ALL countries have "a distinct mixture of culture and customs"; so this phrase is meaningless. - Drogo Underburrow 16:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Much of this draws directly from the period of Spanish colonialism, the introduction of African slaves and the island’s close proximity to the United States. Yes, but this is trying to say too much in too little, and raises more questions than it answers. Best to leave this out entirely, as it is so incomplete, especially as the next sentence bounces back to geography again, talking about Cuba's position in an area subject to hurricanes. Then suddenly politics is brought up. Does the Communist Party control Cuba, or does Castro control the Communist Party, which is simply the group of people who do what he says? The statement implies that the Party runs things, not Castro. This is a POV. Drogo Underburrow 17:05, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Cuba’s relationship with the neighbouring United States has been a continued source of political discord - The relationship itself is the source of the friction? Does this mean that if Cuba and the U.S. had no relationships, there would be no political discord between the two? Of course not. what the sentence is trying to say, I believe, is that Cuba and the United States have in recent years had a relationship marked by political discord. -- Drogo Underburrow 17:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
My apologies if my criticisms of this paragraph sound harsh. I mean no personal offense, I am criticising the writing, but not the writer. I think the paragraph was a good attempt and written in good faith. I just thought that it wasn't up to Wiki standards and best was to delete it entirely and try to build a new paragraph from scratch. Drogo Underburrow 17:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
In copying the information, you re-worded it, and in re-wording it, introduced errors of phrasing and style which made it below Wiki and Encarta standards. But lets stop dwelling on this; please, I mean no offense.
Cuba’s Communist Party has controlled the government of the country - this is a misleading statement, as it implies that Castro is not the real source of power in the country, and that is a matter of opinion, not fact. This is POV pushing and not allowed. - Drogo Underburrow 17:43, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
"Continuously since 1959, the Cuba’s Communist Party, led by totalitarian ruler Fidel Castro, has been the ruling party."
I have relocated this sentence here for verification: In the five years after 1959, around one million (about 10% of the population) Cubans immmigrated to the U.S. and there was a further surge of emigration in 1980 when Castro temporarily lifted restrictions on emigration (see Mariel Boatlift). Altogether about 2 million Cubans have emigrated since 1959 citation needed.
These seem unverified and incorrect, consider that in 1959 the population of Cuba was about 6 million so a 1 million exodus is not "10% of the population". Also, the emigration issue has POV political undertones. For neutrality, emigration data in the article should be factual and WP:V'ed, and perhaps should be cited in context of emigration statistics in Latin America. For instance, according to data from the UN, net emigration from 1995-2000 was -1.7/1000 per year for Latin America, and was -1.8/1000 for Cuba. BruceHallman 16:31, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems so useless to add factual corrections. Let me give an example : That truck illustrated is from the March 13, 1957 attack on the Presidencial Palace in Havana by Directorio Estudiantil and Organizacion Autentica. Castro had no known part in it, matter of fact he condemned it. However, the communists did they betrayed the attack to Batista, and then they betrayed the few escapees. As it is presented now it seems, by default, to credit Castro Forces. El Jigue 5-11-06.
Z thank you even if you forgot to remember, Accion Autentica your additon gave me a little hope E; Jigue 5-11-06
"The fall of the Soviet Union in 1991 dealt Cuba a giant economic blow. It led to another unregulated exodus of asylum seekers to the United States in 1994, but was eventually slowed to a trickle of a few thousand a year by the U.S.-Cuban accords. It has again increased in 2004-06 although at a far slower rate than before. [8] Castro’s popularity was severely tested by the aftermath of the Soviet collapse, which led to a cutoff in aid, the loss of a guaranteed export market for Cuban sugar and the loss of a source of cheap imported oil. It also caused, as in all Communist countries, a crisis in confidence for those who believed that the Soviet Union was successfully “building socialism” and providing a model that other countries should follow. In Cuba, however, these events were not sufficient to persuade Cuban Communists that they should voluntarily give up power, nor was the economic crisis grave enough to bring about the fall of the government."
Yes. a. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. b. that commie protester chant about 'the people - united - etc." is very true. c. prague springs succeed more than 50% of the time. d. the military was the last place to give up on the workers paradise story (they didn't need to, because for them it worked reasonably well (except for dedovshchina etc, but thats small potatoes). (the kgb etc were pretty fast, but that was because so many saw there was a buck to be made once it all came tumbling down). Bridesmill 20:37, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
The current article claims that Cuba has the 3rd highest abortion rate "according to the UN" (a rather underspecified citation). I can't find a UN comparison just yet, but I came across this: http://www.euro.who.int/document/ENS/en59.pdf. Looking at the rate-by-country map of Europe, there seem to be about a half-dozen European nations with a higher rate than Cuba has (generally in Eastern Europe). That's just Europe too; I've heard anecdotally, for example, that Brazil has a particularly high rate (plus some more continents have countries in them) I flagged the "3rd highest" as needing a citation; but given this prima facie evidence that it's untrue, I'll take out the claim pretty soon if there is no citation. LotLE× talk 20:15, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Wow! Once I looked more closely at this, I almost couldn't believe how sloppy the prior editor had been. The figures reported were using non-comparable measurements! In these studies, two measurements include (1) abortions per 1000 women (per year); and (2) abortions per known pregnancies (including those aborted). These two numbers cannot be directly correlated, since they depend on the unknown value "pregnancies per woman, per year" that can, of course, vary between countries. The 77.7 figure given before was for the first thing, not the figure that is not directly reported at all of "abortions per live birth" (which is computable from (2), however). Moreover, apparently 60% of the D&E's in Cuba are not performed because of known pregnancies (I've known women who had regular D&E's for treatment of endometriosis; but the Cuban medical protocol does strike me as odd... still, I'm not an M.D.). LotLE× talk 03:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Never mind my previous comment - was being a sloppy reader (reading health vice demographics). OTOH, the health para looke a bit too 'sweetness and light' to be realistic for a soc republic, and does not match anecdotal evidence remotely - currently an ideal example of POVishness. Bridesmill 13:17, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't think including the abortion rate is such an important issue. My POV.-- Anticom 13:29, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
it looks like a lot of people writing this article are either members of the cuban communist government, or members of the former USSR trying to slander america, please check for any users who may be editing from any former soviet satalites, or from cuban government offices, thank you-- Burg Hambler 22:03, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a problem almost all people with computers in Cuba work for the Cuban government. If staffers of US Congress members are not allowed to access to the Wikipedia pages that discuss their employers, how come Castro's employees are allowed to do this? El Jigue 5-11-06
A real cynic would say 'because Cubans have more freedom'. Reality would be; because wasting your bosses time is typical in socialist states. Bridesmill 00:08, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
User:Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters has deleted the message they originally placed here. See talk history. - Drogo Underburrow 07:34, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
About good faith: This policy does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary. Things which can cause the loss of good faith include vandalism, personal attacks, and edit warring. To me, this means that if a person continually editwars in such a fashion where they always revert any criticism of Castro or of Cuba, it exempts others from assuming good faith. But, as I said before, we should be extra nice to those people, after all, they are only doing their jobs. They are probably very nice people. - Drogo Underburrow 06:49, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps one should mention that individual access to the internet is strictly monitored in Cuba. As to private access while the per capita income of the Cuba is perhaps $3,000 (US), almost universally the income of Cubans is less than $240. Thus the only computers available to the average Cuban are in Cuban goverment offices. Remember Cuba is a communist (or choke gasp a "socialist") country, and with the recent crackdown on small business all such computers belong to the state, or heavily monitored foreign interests such as Sherritt. El Jigue 5-12-06
I still cannot believe that Wikipedia had the hubris to block access to vast numbers of US Congress computer. But however now I read here that Cuban government computers, or the offices heavily controlled shared Cuban Goverment/Foreign investment entities are to be considered as pure as the driven snow (that of course is Cuban snow, as in "I walked three miles even through the snow to school in Cuba every day". Truly this is Ley del Embudo (the "law" of the funnel, wide side entry for some, narrow spout admission for others) El Jigue. 5-12-06
That is just "silly" (a euphism for far stronger words). Different network. Can anyone, even here, imagine US Armed forces sharing network with Cuban government El Jigue 5-12-06
it would seem that there are three zeros, missing in "The Spanish retaliated with a campaign of ruthless suppression, herding the rural population into concentration camps where hundreds died. In Europe and the U.S., there were fierce protests against Spain’s behavior." The most reliable data in 2-4 hundreds of thousands was verified by first hand observation, by Red Cross and by US Senator Proctor, and by calculations on population decline done after that war. The term concentration camp is not really accurate, what happened was that the civilian population was concentrated in the cities. The numbers shown at present are not even as large as the data for the Boer War.....
However, this number causes embarassing contrast with the apparently less reliable information on the 1952-1958 Batista years, which according to Cuban goverment sources (citing Bohemia from Ramon Grau San Martin) was 20,000. Of this 1952-1958 data so far only about 2,000 have been verified by independent sources. Personally I think the real number is somewhat larger but certainly not much greater than 3,000. Not that this excuses the killings of Ventura, Caratala etc... El Jigue 5-12-06
Z: One reference on the web is Redfield Proctor [12]. Even that far left "Agent of Influence" Richard Gott in his "Cuba. A new History" (p. 105) citing Hugh Thomas mentions the calculations from population decline. However, Gott is prone not only to bias but to outright errors (such as the place of meeting of Lieutenant Rowan with General Garcia (p. 101), an event that importantly took place in Bayamo on the plains, rather than in the mountains). General Garcia did meet with General Shafter near the coast in the Sierra Maestra mountains but that was later (no bad jokes about the poor over burdened mule that carried the enormously fat Shafter up the mountains). El Jigue 5-12-06
Z: Thank you El Jigue
Z: that is closer to a the real and undescribable horror of those times. El Jigue 5-12-06
Cut from politics section:
Nice sounding words like "serve" and "adoption" make it sound like Castro is leading the people with their consent. Did the people vote on the constitution, or was it imposed from above? Is the body which "elects" Castro appointed by him (see democratic centralism), or is it some sort of parliament answerable to the people? -- Uncle Ed 15:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Reference 17 is in Spanish, is very short and very old (1967). I think you should include an updated version in English. Here is the 2006 version in English.
Two corrections: One image in the Cuba article shows a truck or van with bullet holes in it. In one place, the label underneath the photo says that the truck was involved in the 1957 attack on the Presidential Palace in Havana. If you click on the image, the label underneath the photo changes to read that the truck was used in the 1953 attack on the Moncada Barracks in Santiago. Which is correct?
That truck was apparently one used by the Directorio and the Autentico rebels to attack the Presidential Palace in Havana on March 13, 1957. The attack on the Moncada barracks was July 26, 1953 used automobiles, Castro according to most accounts was unable to complete entry. If you read the signs on the side of the truck they say Havana. El Jigue 5-12-06
The article on Cuban history says, "The 1952 election was contested between Roberto Agramonte of the liberals and Batista, who was seeking a return to office." This is not correct. The two main candidates were the Ortodoxos' Roberto Agramonte and the Auténticos' Carlos Hevia, with Batista running on a small, third party ticket and running a distant third.
The Agramonte vs Hevia is how I remember it El Jigue 5-12-06
This article is still full of errors, e.g. as to the Bay of Pigs, urban the resistance inside Cuba had no warning of impending invasion at least 200,000 were rounded up just at the start of the invasion. The rural resistance "The War Against the Bandits" was ongoing and lasted until at least 1967 or so. This with further details and citations was in the version posted prior to the recent massive, erroneous, and usually uncited "corrections" El Jigue 5-12-06
Thank you Jiggy; instead of just stating 'this that & the other thing' is wrong, please provide the correction, along with cites, & help make this place the article if could be. Bridesmill 02:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. However, I already did this once some time ago. Perhaps the responsibility for this might be more readily attributed to those who removed the previous versions and thus eliminated these cites. El Jigue 5-13-06
Here is an example of removed text:
"The expected urban revolt collapsed when it became clear Brigade 2506 had been abandoned to its fate; and because the Soviet Union warned Castro, who ordered numerous executions and preemptive mass arrests of those thought likely to support a counter-revolution. [13],(Priestland, 2003). Church schools were confiscated, clergy were arrested, [14] and expelled en masse. In the rural central provinces the War Against the Bandits (circa 1959-1965) was suppressed by massed Castro militia, many executions and internal deportations of rebel supporters."
El Jigue 5-13-06
That Castro and/or his image plays a huge role is not doubted. But being an old man, it is getting to the stage where it is difficult to tell exactly how much & how he runs things. Technically, it is the PCC. de facto, Castro is a huge figure in that. But it remains to be seen if he is the only or dominant figure. To assume that this is all Castro (nowadays) is just that - an assumption, and from the perspective of how to handle & understand the place once Castro goes, dangerous hubris to assume we know exactly what is going on in the halls of power. Therefore, recommend the de jure wording that PCC runs the place, with associated de facto that Castro is a helmsman there. In other words, the wording that's there now. Just because we think it is so, does not mean it is - let's stick with what we know for sure. Bridesmill 02:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
One of the problems for those in the second level of the Cuban government who seek power, is that since apparently Castro's life is somehow linked to the resolution of the Missile Crisis, thus he (Raul although only four years younger and even sicker) must be kept alive at all cost so that the regime may survive. Thus one can forecast that Castro will be kept alive even if all this remaining mental functions decay, and he becomes a kind of living Lenin's tomb. El Jigue 5-13-06
Yes, and no matter what shape he is in he will not ever be removed from his position of 'running Cuba'; he will remain the tittular head till he is well & truly dead. That does not mean, however, that he is of necessity the one (or the only one) actually making the day-to-day decisions. May I ask, BTW, why you don't have an account? Bridesmill 14:13, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
It was suggested in a section above that computer access to the internet is allowed, or is available to all in Cuba. This runs contrary to the Guillermo Fariñas circumstance [15]. Guillermo Fariñas according this Reporters without Borders article and many other is/was carrying out a hunger strike to obtain this access. El Jigue 5-13-06
A number of facts were recently introduced that rely on the US State Department as a sole source, chiefly questions of health and literacy indices. Unfortunately, in this specific regard, the US SD must be treated with a high degree of skepticism. The facts published at that site in most cases contradict (by percentage, but just enough to make comparisons to other nations seem less favorable) the plurality of other sources such as WHO, UNESCO, PAHO, Red Cross, and even the CIA World Fact Book. The source isn't totally outside WP:RS, but it's not particularly reliable either. LotLE× talk 17:21, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
WHO and UN in general accept, without critique, Cuban Government Data, even when it includes such oddities as zero (0) infant mortality in remote areas. I had all this referenced but this too has been removed El Jigue 5-13-06
Views from one side selectively deleted:
"The US State Department, citing many independent sources, states that Cuba's infant mortality rate in 1957 was the lowest in Latin America and the 13th lowest in the world, according to UN data. Cuba ranked ahead of France, Belgium, West Germany, Israel, Japan, Austria, Italy, and Spain, all of which would eventually pass Cuba in this indicator during the following decades. Cuba’s comparative world ranking has fallen from 13th to last out of the 25 countries examined. In terms of physicians and dentists per capita, Cuba in 1957 ranked third in Latin America, behind only Uruguay and Argentina -- both of which were more advanced than the United States in this measure. Cuba's physicians and dentists in 1957 was the same as the Netherlands, and ahead of the United Kingdom and Finland. [16]
Pre-Castro Cuba ranked third in Latin America in per capita food consumption but ranked last out of the 11 countries analyzed in terms of percent of increase since 1957. Overall, Cuban per capita food consumption from 1954-1997 has decreased by 11.47 percent. Per capita consumption of cereals, tubers, and meat are today all below 1950's levels. [17]" Ultramarine 17:25, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
This was recently mostly removed. I'm just stashing it here to try to rewrite a more NPOV version:
I see this paragraph as having numerous problems, but let me copy it here to work on a usable version:
Specifically, if Cuba had high indices and adequate nutrution in 1957 while other Latin American countries had inadequate nutrition, I would certainly hope for a caloric increase elsewhere, but would presumably not expect one where it was already adequate. Also, the decrease in a particular food stuff doesn't necessarily say anything about overall nutrition if diets shift. Let me start digging around for citable data. If there's been a real change in nutritional adequacy that's worth mentioning; or also if there was a shortfall already in 1954). LotLE× talk 19:03, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm... just loking at the source, it's interesting the cherry picking and bias. For one thing, all other countries report 1954-57 as the baseline, while inexplicably, they choose 1948-49 as the Cuba baseline. But then looking at some other data:
Mexico: 2,420 → 3,108 (+28.4%) Argentina 3,100 → 3,113 (+0.4%) ... Cuba 2,730 → 2,417 (-11.5%)
The first thing that strikes me here is that Mexicans and Argentines are eating too much! That's not a healthy intake for an average sized person, and indicates obesity. Worse than the USA, apparently (though activity matters too):
Hmmm... this actually puts the Cuban caloric intake in either 1948 or 1997 than US in either 1971 or 2000. That strikes me as a bit anomalous; let me look further. A 1500 calorie diet is a long-term survival level (for an average sized person), but is likely to lead to overall malnutrition. LotLE× talk 19:25, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I am curious if the editors around here can agree on a policy for using POV sources for WP:V?
Eariler, 172 deleted[ [36]] a reference from People's Weekly World, an obvious pro-Cuba reference. Also, earlier, Ultramarine added [37] a reference to Freedom House, an obvious anti-Castro reference. I don't see the logic that it is good to delete one and not the other for POV reasons? We really have two choices, to use POV sourcing, pro and con, or to not. It just isn't right to use only POV sourcing for one POV and not the other. BruceHallman 23:06, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
This is absurd. Information from Freedom House is reliable and consumed by academics all the time. Information from the Communist Party USA is not. Wikipedia is supposed to be seeking to become a serious enyclopedia, not a soapbox for crackpots and fringe groups. 172 | Talk 23:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
As per Bruce. Yes, 172, academics use Freedom House all the time: but they treat it with a healthy dose of skepticism - it does have it's share of biases. Bridesmill 00:09, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
I suppose Freedom Houses's Frank Calzon is biased, after all getting hit over the head from behind in a unprovoked attack by Cuban goverment security "delegate" "diplomat" at Geneva a year or two back will do it to you. The perpetrators were arrested by the Swiss police [39] [40]. Frank is a little fat guy about 50. El Jigue 5-13-06
Apparently I am being too subtle for many. When "diplomats" of government like Cuba (as it has done a number of times), believe it is OK to go out and beat on people in other countries there is ssoemthing very wrong with that government. If in Cuba it is "legal" to organize mobs beat up on sixty year old women who protest peacefully (such as Marta Beatriz Roque Cabello [41]) in a way that even Aljazeera objects [42]), that alone may be taken to suggest that the Cuban government rules by force, and thus, the nonsense here about Cuba being a democracy is patently absurd. El Jigue 5-14-06
Z: beatings of dissidents are becoming quite common now in Cuba. Will try to document a few. El Jigue 05-14-06
Referenced opposing view removed without explanation "The US State Department notes that many other Latin American nations which all ranked just behind Cuba on literacy during the 1950's have equaled or bettered Cuba's improvement when measured in percentage terms. [44]" Ultramarine 16:10, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Referenced opposing view removed: "Cuba remains a Latin American anomaly: an undemocratic government that represses nearly all forms of political dissent. President Fidel Castro, now in his forty-seventh year in power, shows no willingness to consider even minor reforms. Instead, his government continues to enforce political conformity using criminal prosecutions, long- and short-term detentions, mob harassment, police warnings, surveillance, house arrests, travel restrictions, and politically-motivated dismissals from employment. The end result is that Cubans are systematically denied basic rights to free expression, association, assembly, privacy, movement, and due process of law." [48] Ultramarine 18:12, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
This sentence had been in the article, and has gone back-and-forth a bit in the last day. I think that with a good citation it's nicely informative, but not essential certainly. What do folks think?
LotLE× talk 21:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
It is my understanding that it was disappointment to many inside Cuba too. El Jigue 5-14-06
The article states, [Cuba's] culture and customs draw from several sources including ... the island’s close proximity to the United States.
Just what Cuban customs have the United States as its source? What aspect of Cuban culture "draws" from the United States? Drogo Underburrow 02:09, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
this line of ciritism needs to be addressed.
The Cuban American National Foundation and Lawrence Solomon of the Urban Renaissance Institute claim that Cuba masks the truth behind the Cuban health care system. They argue that real Cuban healthcare is abysmal and that what is shown to non-Cuban foreigners is a healthcare system unavailable to the average Cuban. [50] [51] [52] The National Review has made similar criticisms.
This has been deleted multiple times by left wing censors who don't want the information out there. I call bullshit on this censorship. Just because you actually think universal health care can work doesnt mean you have to delete information that suggests it will not. Cut it out.
btw, Milton Friedman gave the economic arguement on why left wing socialists tend to censor information and why capitalists typically will not. Read his book Capitalism and Freedom to figure out why. ( Gibby 03:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC))
Return-Path: <wiki@wikimedia.org> Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 03:52:57 GMT Message-Id: <200605150352.k4F3qvq1023822@localhost.localdomain> X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: apache set sender to wiki@wikimedia.org using -f To: Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters <wikipedia@gnosis.cx> Subject: Wikipedia e-mail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MediaWiki mailer From: KDRGibby <kdrgibby81@yahoo.com>
you are fucking stupid. That is not POV material. My god. You are an idiot and wiki is full of people like you. Stop censoring information and making up bullshit excuses.
It looks like Drogo Underburrow is intent on repeating KDRGibby's 3RR violation. Not there quite yet, but I'll be sure to report it if or when he violates. KDRGibby, appropriately, was blocked for a month—but that's mostly because of prior probation. I assume Drogo's block would be for less time. LotLE× talk 04:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The refs in this article is a complete mess, fix them to footnotes. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 03:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok, but this article is in content revert war, should be protected, or at least every stop editing for like a hour for formatting of refs. Remember we are trying to make this article better and all this revert war won't help. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 04:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
1) Somebody please make a new archive. 2) start a new page 3) write down the title of each chapter as they appear on the article. Comment only those sentences found in a particular chapter chapter. 4) don’t assume readers are stupid. Every single fact presented in the main text is followed by “explanations” meant to influence the readers. Since we have different POVs let’s present the facts as they are, and let the readers to make their own conclusions (e.g. suicide rates, life expectancy etc). Keep comparisons with other countries at minimum. It’s better to put things into context but this could be extremely misleading, keeping in mind you can chose your examples as you wish. If not possible at least keep comparing the same countries.-- Anticom 04:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
There's a line that some editors seem to be pushing and approach that completely misunderstands the concept of "opposing views". Yes, differing views should be presented. But not every fact has an opposing view, except in the most contorted and ideological sophistry. If we say rhumba came from Cuba, we really don't need to present the "opposing view". And likewise for the fact it's south of Florida. Many facts that are social or political also have no sensible "opposing view"... and just presenting some fact that someone might take as a good thing about Cuba doesn't mean that we need some digression into a tirade as an "opposing view".
So Cuba has a 96% literacy nowadays (or whatever the referencable number is). There's no "opposing view" to that (unless some serious non-fringe position existed that it had a 50% literacy or a 150% literacy like the SD seems to expect). Sure, if estimates actually vary, we can say "95-98%" and footnote the various sources, or whatever. It's not an "opposing view" to argue tediously about what might have happened in regard to literacy under some other regime, or whatever counterfactual. It's not an "opposing view" to argue that the literacy rate "doesn't count" for whatever reason, it's just an editorial that doesn't belong here. Symmetrically, it would be POV nonsense to write that "The 96% literacy rate proves the revolution is really great". Our job is just to state the facts, readers can decide for themselves what "might have been" or "what it proves". Similarly for health indices, or abortion rates, or whatever.
Even most of the stuff around form-of-government has no sensible "opposing view". We don't follow the fact that Castro has been president, or that X% of legislators were PCC members, or whatever with some rant about how bad those facts are under the misleading guise that it's an "opposing view". It's fine to say that such-and-such are the constitutional procedures. And it's even mostly fine, if properly cited, to write that the de jure procedures are not fully followed de facto. But adding at the end "and that's bad" isn't an "opposing view", it's just an editorial (and it's just as much an editorial even if it's a direct quotation). LotLE× talk 19:59, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Bruce,
Cuba has just posted the “Registro General de Disposiciones Jurídicas” (Register of the Judicial Dispositions), in other words the laws of Cuba. I just reviewed the information for Code 62 (Penal Code). I could not find any mention of a public law against homosexuality. Unfortunately, it is only in Spanish.
You may want to add it to the link section. The Website contains other information.
Respectfully,
Daniel ( http://www.unjc.cu/indice_referativo.htm)
The last remaining POV dispute box was in the Human Rights section. I reverted that section to a roughly stable version that existed prior to the last edit war. Obviously this is subject to collaboration and consensus, but I hope that it is a helpful baseline from which to start. BruceHallman 18:31, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that's about the 3rd time I've restored the link to " socialist republic" (which redirects to our Socialist state article). So I must now retire from the field. If other contributors insist on reverting that link I won't undo the revert any more for a couple of days.
But I wish you all would discuss changes here on the talk page, where they are easy to follow. I don't think the Edit Summary field is a place for a discussion. It's just to provide a quick note of what you were trying to do. Anything complicated, or non-obvious, or that needs further discussion really should go on the " discussion page". -- Uncle Ed 19:16, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
IMHO Socialist state (which is what Socialist republic redirs to) - appears to form a good basic explanation, plus is a better starting for exploring the concept (links to examples, short simple backgounder etc) Bridesmill 20:00, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for starting a new section, but it's not really about Sandy Berger. The thing that embarassed us with news reports is the edit war about whether Cuba is a " democracy" or not.
I daresay it may have something to do with various definitions of "democracy" being applied. Given that Sandy Berger was working for a non-Republican president, he's probably not a right-wing conservative but more likely expressing the general sense of what Americans mean when they say "democratic". The question is whether the American definition is applicable (or is the only relevant definition).
But it's not unclear. Berger is saying that Cuba doesn't qualify as being an American democracy. (And he's also scolding them for being the only one's in the neighborhood who don't qualify.) Perhaps we should elaborate on this.
On the other hand, many people feel that Communism is (or can be) "democratic". In university, I learned about something called " democratic centralism". And lots of Communist dictatorships take pains to call themselves the "democratic" republic of this or that. The most anti-democratic one of all is the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea. If Marxists want to apply the label of "democracy" to their totalitarian experiments, who's to say they are wrong?
However, it might help our readers (more than an edit war "helps" them) if we distinguished clearly between these competing definitions of democracy. How about a sidebar article just about that? -- Uncle Ed 19:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I read the Sandy Berger quote in context, a political spokesman for a political administration explaining a political policy that was being questioned as appearing politically duplicitous. In that context, the "Cuba is not a democracy" statement is obviously a shorthand political slogan, not a serious neutral encylopedic description. BruceHallman 20:53, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I have uploaded four images which could be used in this article. I don't have a scanner to upload my own, but these have all been released for use. Please give your opinion on these, or perhaps add one of your own! For reference, please see the finely tuned United States article. Myciconia 20:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Something that would be nice to have some more images of would be groups of "ordinary" people, which a lot of nation articles seem to have. There's a hint of that in the Chinatown picture, but something more would be nice. Maybe a street festival, or a group of schoolchildren, or a market. Ideally something that is in some way culturally specific (e.g. musicians playing characteristic instruments, or people preparing or eating characteristic foods). Anyone have or know of images along these lines? LotLE× talk 15:19, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I think we'll never agree if Cuba is a democracy, communist state or socialist republic. As a solution of compromise I propose the word Oligarchy. -- Anticom 04:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
If it hasn't changed in 45 years, then it's still a Communist state. If it has changed, then I apologize for not reading the entire article. -- Uncle Ed 21:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
(I've really got to stop trying to 'Wiki' contribute on the job, the thoughts of getting caught by my boss jummble my ideas and I usually hit send too fast.) ,-) The correction is- monarchies are generally not considered as republics, since a "monarchy" is considered more descriptive. But the UK could in someways be considered a republic as well based on the forementioned power they have over their Queen and her heirs these days. I have to also re-view some of my old-notes but I believe there are also several republics in Africa and Oceana with internal monarchies as well. CaribDigita 04:58, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
It's not a communist state - no such animal. The most 'neutral' authorities on this issue list Cuba as (variant phrasings of) Socialist State. The Socialist state article also explains well exactly what this label is on about. In terms of disservice to 'true' socialists - I assume you are talking 'socialist' as understood in places like Sweden, perhaps the NDP in Canada - those 'socialists' understand the difference (just as the Big L 'Liberals' in canada understand the difference between themselves and small l 'liberals' in the US). Bridesmill 19:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC) And no, not weven the USSR - lots of communists there, some of whom worked very hard to make communism a reality (note I did not say 'to make communist state a reality'). But they never acheieved it - Socialist Republic. Bridesmill 20:02, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
1)Cuba has changed significantly (prove this!) -- Anticom 19:41, 10 May ( a) not true! the following sentence is a copy/paste from EU website: "The form of government: Centralised political system, with identification between the Cuban Communist Party (PCC) and the state ( 1) such as? 2) not even USSR?) -- Anticom 19:41, 10 May
Will there be any complaints if I add a sentance or two on the
Godfrey-Milliken Bill
Helms-Burton Act? Does anyone know of any neutral sources outlining the effects of the embargo on the people?
Myciconia
01:18, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
There is clearly such a pro-castro, pro-cuban-government agenda being pushed here that it is sickening. From the Che mural and the "Cuba following Communism" section that was renamed solely for keeping THE UNNECESSARY AND CONTROVERSIAL OBSCURE GRAFITTI OF CHE, to the tone and overt phrasing of several sections including:
and:
So the United States caused castro to turn to communism... WHAT!? IS THE POV POLICE TAKING A NAP?!? -- Mcmachete 08:02, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
That's all been there for a long time Mcmachete, it was written by Adam.-- Zleitzen 08:15, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I guess I was so focused on other sections i missed it. That it's been there for a while and that Adam wrote it, though surprising, certainly do not excuse it. However, that's not all that's wrong, nor all I mentioned. Did the fact that a section was changed to accomodate a controversial and unnecessary image not sound any alarms to anyone? If not, my concern regarding the integrity of Wikipedia deepens. -- Mcmachete 08:27, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The photograph of the van is from the attack on the presidencial palace by non-Castro (mostly Autentico and Directorio: forces see a similar photo apparently of the same van at [3]). Look at the side of the van it says Havana not Santiago..... The Moncada attack was done in cars, and Castro's car got stuck at the entrance guard post and he never really entered. However, that little matter never enters into official histories. El Jigue 5-10-06
Z: The attack was by two non-Castro group's the Accion Autentica and the Directorio Estudiantil. One should never presume malice if there is another explantation, however, the corrections you are making always seem to favor Castro, it is not NPOV to let an innocent reader assume that the Palace was attacked by Castro forces. More than that some of the escaped attackers were betrayed to the Batista Secret police by a communist party member and killed soon afterwards. It does get worse, some of the attackers who were unable to reach the scene, tried to land in Cuba later, but again they were betrayed and all killed except one or two who ran off before hand and joined the Che Guevara's forces. Oh BTW I think you have a devious contributor (s) who is (are) inserting these erroneous little bits of information to make the whole article absurd. In case this is really so I will refrain from further comment for a while. EL Jigue 5-10-06
Thanks for your comments EJ. Please point out all errors that you see. -- Beardo 01:16, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
It might be wise to direct attention to the increasing number errors of fact in the article (e.g. date of declaration belligerency in WW II) than to adorn it with hagiography of the Che. El Jigüe 5-10-06
Well the Cuban Navy did sink one U-boat (much to the surprise of everybody including the U-Boat crew), and actively hunt others. Any map of vessels sunk will show that the Caribbean Sea was a major marine battle front in the undersea war. At least one German spy monitoring or trying to monitor sea traffic was caught and executed, other such under Admiral Canaris direction were more discrete and perhaps successful for a time. However, you are correct in that Cuba was more of a supply source because at that time prepared foods were often as high or higher than 12% sucrose. This was also important although quite distant to Soviet sea supply. Cubans did fight in US forces during the war and US bases such as San Antonio de Los Ba~nos were operating. However, it one compares this circumstance with that of most Latin American countries, possible with the exception of Venezuela, where there may have been actual U-boats in Maracaibo Bay, Cuba did participate far more than most. If my memory of reading is correct, some countries as Argentina were essentially on the side of the Axis. Remember the sinking of the Graf Spree (really a desperate scuttling) in Rio de la Plata. El Jigüe 5-10-06
Now perhaps we should look at the parties in 1940s 1944, and line up for the 1948 Cuban elections the least one could do is get the names straight. El Jigüe 5-10-06
The article reads "In the five years after 1959, around one million (about 10% of the population) Cubans immmigrated to the U.S. and there was a further surge of emigration in 1980 when Castro temporarily lifted restrictions on emigration (see Mariel Boatlift). Altogether about 2 million Cubans have emigrated since 1959."
I think immmigrated (sic) should be emigrated here. But the numbers look too high to me. Does anyone have sources ?
In the demographics section it says "over a million" - we should be consistent - one million, two million ?
This site - http://www.sela.org/public_html/AA2K2/eng/docs/coop/migra/spsmirdi12-02/spsmirdi12-2.htm - says "According to some sources between 1959 and 1999, 1,079,000 Cubans migrated to different countries. Today, the total Cuban population residing abroad is estimated to be above 1,400,000 people. The U.S. 1990 census registered 1,043,932 people of Cuban origin, while in the 2000 census that number totalled 1,241,685" - though that may not be definitive.
And this - http://www.genealogy.com/00000365.html - "During the 1950s, however, growing political unrest and economic uncertainty caused thousands of Cubans to flee the island for Miami and other Northern points. This exodus grew even larger after Fidel Castro seized control of the island on January 1, 1959, and began nationalizing large companies and confiscating the property of the upper middle class and wealthy. Between this date and the Cuban missile crisis in October 1962, more than 150,000 Cubans came to the United States." 150,000 up to October 1962 - did another 850,000 emigrate to the US in the following 15 months ? -- Beardo 00:18, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Cut from article:
Is there a source for this? Even a Cuban gov't source?
And what shall we do about the independent reports that say Cuba has a two-tier system which favor cash-paying tourists (and government officials) while providing substandard care to local citizens? (This is easily googled, please help me on this. Where's Adam when I need him?) -- Uncle Ed 01:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Those figures reflect CIA factbook - given bias, if there is an error with these I would expect it to be on the 'low' side, rather than a higher exageration. Bridesmill 01:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
This information needs to be added to this section (translated from Spanish):
Analysis and speculation as to why is perhaps not necessary, as it may lean to POV, but these numbers absolutely should be included. -- Mcmachete 07:57, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I looked to other pages (countries) and I didn't see any reference to the life expentacy and infant mortality. Why Cuba makes an exception? just to please pro-Castro group?-- Anticom 19:23, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Cuba has a higher suicide rate and a lower homicide rate that other similar countries, showing both is a potential neutralizing POV path, see my recent edit. Still, we are doomed if we must always fight about needing to condemn Cuba (or not) in the article. Steering away from controversy seems a better choice for a neutral path in this encyclopedia. BruceHallman 15:04, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
As much as it seems to pain you to present a complete and balanced picture of Cuba, Cuba's government has been internationally recognized many times over as routinely violating human rights, and thus Cuba's record on human rights merits a section. Simple as that. -- Mcmachete 21:12, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I read a exerpt of a book today. I have to write a paper for my international affairs conflict resolution class about America's history of exporting democracy, if it has succeeded, and what policy recommedations would I consider. I would like fellow wikipedians opinions, on this author's thesis about Cuba:
During the Clinton administration, the sentiment has been proclaimed on so many occasions by the president and other political leaders, and dutifully reiterated by the media, that the thesis: "Cuba is the only non-democracy in the Western Hemisphere" is now nothing short of received wisdom in the United States. Let us examine this thesis carefully for it has a highly interesting implication.
Throughout the period of the Cuban revolution, 1959 to the present, Latin American has witness a terrible parade of human rights violation--systematic, routine torture; legions of "disappeared" people; government-supported death squads picking off selected individuals; massacres en masse of peasants, students and other groups, shot down in cold blood. The worst perpetrators of these acts during all or part of this period have been the military associated paramilitary squads of El Salvador, Guatemala, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Colombia, Peru, Mexico, Uruguay, Haiti and Honduras.
Not even Cuba's worst enemies have charged the Castro government with any of these violations, and if one further considers education and health care--each guaranteed by the United Nations "Universal Declaration of Human Rights" and the "European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms"---"both of which," said President Clinton, "work better [in Cuba] than most other countries," then it would appear that during the more-than-40 years of its revolution, Cuba has enjoyed one of the best human-rights records in all of Latin America.
If, despite this record, the United States can insist that Cuba is the only "non-democracy" in the Western Hemisphere, we are left with the inescapable conclusion that this thing called "democracy", as seen from the White House, may have little or nothing to do with many of our most cherished human rights. Indeed, numerous pronouncements emanating from Washington officialdom over the years make plain that "democracy", at best, or at most, is equated solely with elections and civil liberties. Not even jobs, food and shelter are part of the equation. Thus, a nation with hordes of hungry, homeless, untended sick, barely literate, unemployed and/or tortured people, whose loved ones are being disappeared and/or murdered with state connivance, can be said to be living in a "democracy"-its literal Greek meaning of "rule of the people" implying that this is the kind of life the people actually want-provided that every two years or four years they have the right to go to a designated place and put an X next to the name of one or another individual who promise to relieve their miserable condition, but who will, typically, do virtually nothing of the kind; and provided further that in this society there is at least a certain minimum of freedom--how much being in large measure a function of one's wealth--for one to express one's view about the powers-that-be and the workings of the society, without undue fear of punishment, regardless of whether expressing these views has any influence whatsoever over the way things are.
It is not by chance that the United States has defined democracy in this narrow manner. Throughout the Cold War, the absence of "free and fair" multiparty election and adequate civil liberties were what marked the Soviet foe and its satellites. There nations, however, provided their citizens with a relatively decent standard of living insofar as employment, food, health care, education, etc., without omnipresent Brazilian torture or Guatemalan death squads. At the same time, many of America's Third World allies in the Cold War--members of what Washington liked to refer to as "The Free World"--were human-rights disaster areas, who could boast of little other than the 60 second democracy of the polling booth and a tolerance for dissenting opinion so long as it didn't cut to close to the bone or threaten to turn into a movement.
...
Thus it is, that Americans are raised to fervently believe that no progress can be made in any society in the absence of elections. They are taught to equate elections with democracy, and democracy with elections. And no matter how cynical they've grown about electoral politics at home, few of them harbor any doubt that the promotion of free and fair elections has long been a basic and sincere tenant of American foreign policy.
In light of this, let us examine the actual historical record...
Signed Travb 16:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Two points for Travb:
So if you want to write a Wikipedia article on Human rights in Latin America or Human rights in the Americas (including US & Canada), I assume you'll be focusing only on right-wing violations or problems in the democratic countries. I do hope, though, that you'll allow other contributors to write about the left-wing violations, such as:
Wikipedia is not the place for progaganda, but for writing accurate articles. Would you please be accurate? -- Uncle Ed 22:47, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Signed: Travb 11:30, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
What "war crimes" are you talking about, Travb? Be specific. CJK 00:35, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Signed: Travb 11:56, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
The War crimes of US are the first to come to my mind, but it truly doesn't matter one way or another whether I list 10 or 100 examples, does it?
Signed: Travb 11:52, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
For those who respond, please don't waste my time and fall into this common top 10 dodge list:
Let me repeat myself, because inevitably, as the Cuban wikipedian aboved showed, despite pointing out a falacy of logic above, people will continue to argue the same fallacy of logic right below the falacy of logic. And I repeat:
Please don't waste my time and fall into this common top 10 dodge list:
How long before some patriotic American states that this discussion has become off topic and suggests that the topic cease here?
Signed: Travb 11:52, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
I hear so many of you chatter away at the various biases present in the article which are pro-communist and pro-castro. Well personally I think the article reeks and smacks of anti-communist mcarthyism advocating many moderate left wing governments while convieniently failing to mention the sucess and popularity of Bolivia and Venezuela's governmental leaders (enemies of America can't be possibly included). On top of that the article is becoming increasively difficult to change. It seems that cuba is "an axis of evil" in the article's eyes and there's little we can do to change that. I ask all of you can we not even maintain a remotely neutral stance on this nation's political history? 09:45, 11 May 2006 82.198.250.69
I tweaked the one sentence "In modern times, the dominance of Cuba’s Communist Party has lead to periods of political isolation and large-scale emigration from the island. ". About 'political isolation', which is odd to say considering the UN votes opposing the US embargo. The 'political isolation' has not been with the world, but rather isolation from the US. Also, the issue of why there has been 'emigration' is not simply fleeing the Communist Party, but I think that objectively, much, if not more of the emigration has been for economic reasons. Also, the description of 'large-scale' needs to be verified and quantified. For instance, is it 'large-scale' relative to Mexico<=>USA? BruceHallman 15:23, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Cuba is the most populated island in the Caribbean and has a distinct mixture of culture and customs. Much of this draws directly from the period of Spanish colonialism, the introduction of African slaves and the island’s close proximity to the United States. The island has a tropical climate moderated by the surrounding waters, which makes Cuba highly susceptible to devastating Hurricanes. In modern times, the Cuba’s Communist Party has controlled the government of the country. Cuba’s relationship with the neighbouring United States has been a continued source of political discord. -- moved from article, going to explain why it was deleted - Drogo Underburrow 16:47, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Part of it was kept. "Cuba is the most populated island in the Caribbean"; this is appropriate. The next part of the sentence was not, as "has a distinct mixture of culture and customs" doesn't really say anything. More explanation n its way... - Drogo Underburrow 16:51, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
ALL countries have "a distinct mixture of culture and customs"; so this phrase is meaningless. - Drogo Underburrow 16:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Much of this draws directly from the period of Spanish colonialism, the introduction of African slaves and the island’s close proximity to the United States. Yes, but this is trying to say too much in too little, and raises more questions than it answers. Best to leave this out entirely, as it is so incomplete, especially as the next sentence bounces back to geography again, talking about Cuba's position in an area subject to hurricanes. Then suddenly politics is brought up. Does the Communist Party control Cuba, or does Castro control the Communist Party, which is simply the group of people who do what he says? The statement implies that the Party runs things, not Castro. This is a POV. Drogo Underburrow 17:05, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Cuba’s relationship with the neighbouring United States has been a continued source of political discord - The relationship itself is the source of the friction? Does this mean that if Cuba and the U.S. had no relationships, there would be no political discord between the two? Of course not. what the sentence is trying to say, I believe, is that Cuba and the United States have in recent years had a relationship marked by political discord. -- Drogo Underburrow 17:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
My apologies if my criticisms of this paragraph sound harsh. I mean no personal offense, I am criticising the writing, but not the writer. I think the paragraph was a good attempt and written in good faith. I just thought that it wasn't up to Wiki standards and best was to delete it entirely and try to build a new paragraph from scratch. Drogo Underburrow 17:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
In copying the information, you re-worded it, and in re-wording it, introduced errors of phrasing and style which made it below Wiki and Encarta standards. But lets stop dwelling on this; please, I mean no offense.
Cuba’s Communist Party has controlled the government of the country - this is a misleading statement, as it implies that Castro is not the real source of power in the country, and that is a matter of opinion, not fact. This is POV pushing and not allowed. - Drogo Underburrow 17:43, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
"Continuously since 1959, the Cuba’s Communist Party, led by totalitarian ruler Fidel Castro, has been the ruling party."
I have relocated this sentence here for verification: In the five years after 1959, around one million (about 10% of the population) Cubans immmigrated to the U.S. and there was a further surge of emigration in 1980 when Castro temporarily lifted restrictions on emigration (see Mariel Boatlift). Altogether about 2 million Cubans have emigrated since 1959 citation needed.
These seem unverified and incorrect, consider that in 1959 the population of Cuba was about 6 million so a 1 million exodus is not "10% of the population". Also, the emigration issue has POV political undertones. For neutrality, emigration data in the article should be factual and WP:V'ed, and perhaps should be cited in context of emigration statistics in Latin America. For instance, according to data from the UN, net emigration from 1995-2000 was -1.7/1000 per year for Latin America, and was -1.8/1000 for Cuba. BruceHallman 16:31, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems so useless to add factual corrections. Let me give an example : That truck illustrated is from the March 13, 1957 attack on the Presidencial Palace in Havana by Directorio Estudiantil and Organizacion Autentica. Castro had no known part in it, matter of fact he condemned it. However, the communists did they betrayed the attack to Batista, and then they betrayed the few escapees. As it is presented now it seems, by default, to credit Castro Forces. El Jigue 5-11-06.
Z thank you even if you forgot to remember, Accion Autentica your additon gave me a little hope E; Jigue 5-11-06
"The fall of the Soviet Union in 1991 dealt Cuba a giant economic blow. It led to another unregulated exodus of asylum seekers to the United States in 1994, but was eventually slowed to a trickle of a few thousand a year by the U.S.-Cuban accords. It has again increased in 2004-06 although at a far slower rate than before. [8] Castro’s popularity was severely tested by the aftermath of the Soviet collapse, which led to a cutoff in aid, the loss of a guaranteed export market for Cuban sugar and the loss of a source of cheap imported oil. It also caused, as in all Communist countries, a crisis in confidence for those who believed that the Soviet Union was successfully “building socialism” and providing a model that other countries should follow. In Cuba, however, these events were not sufficient to persuade Cuban Communists that they should voluntarily give up power, nor was the economic crisis grave enough to bring about the fall of the government."
Yes. a. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. b. that commie protester chant about 'the people - united - etc." is very true. c. prague springs succeed more than 50% of the time. d. the military was the last place to give up on the workers paradise story (they didn't need to, because for them it worked reasonably well (except for dedovshchina etc, but thats small potatoes). (the kgb etc were pretty fast, but that was because so many saw there was a buck to be made once it all came tumbling down). Bridesmill 20:37, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
The current article claims that Cuba has the 3rd highest abortion rate "according to the UN" (a rather underspecified citation). I can't find a UN comparison just yet, but I came across this: http://www.euro.who.int/document/ENS/en59.pdf. Looking at the rate-by-country map of Europe, there seem to be about a half-dozen European nations with a higher rate than Cuba has (generally in Eastern Europe). That's just Europe too; I've heard anecdotally, for example, that Brazil has a particularly high rate (plus some more continents have countries in them) I flagged the "3rd highest" as needing a citation; but given this prima facie evidence that it's untrue, I'll take out the claim pretty soon if there is no citation. LotLE× talk 20:15, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Wow! Once I looked more closely at this, I almost couldn't believe how sloppy the prior editor had been. The figures reported were using non-comparable measurements! In these studies, two measurements include (1) abortions per 1000 women (per year); and (2) abortions per known pregnancies (including those aborted). These two numbers cannot be directly correlated, since they depend on the unknown value "pregnancies per woman, per year" that can, of course, vary between countries. The 77.7 figure given before was for the first thing, not the figure that is not directly reported at all of "abortions per live birth" (which is computable from (2), however). Moreover, apparently 60% of the D&E's in Cuba are not performed because of known pregnancies (I've known women who had regular D&E's for treatment of endometriosis; but the Cuban medical protocol does strike me as odd... still, I'm not an M.D.). LotLE× talk 03:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Never mind my previous comment - was being a sloppy reader (reading health vice demographics). OTOH, the health para looke a bit too 'sweetness and light' to be realistic for a soc republic, and does not match anecdotal evidence remotely - currently an ideal example of POVishness. Bridesmill 13:17, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't think including the abortion rate is such an important issue. My POV.-- Anticom 13:29, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
it looks like a lot of people writing this article are either members of the cuban communist government, or members of the former USSR trying to slander america, please check for any users who may be editing from any former soviet satalites, or from cuban government offices, thank you-- Burg Hambler 22:03, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a problem almost all people with computers in Cuba work for the Cuban government. If staffers of US Congress members are not allowed to access to the Wikipedia pages that discuss their employers, how come Castro's employees are allowed to do this? El Jigue 5-11-06
A real cynic would say 'because Cubans have more freedom'. Reality would be; because wasting your bosses time is typical in socialist states. Bridesmill 00:08, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
User:Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters has deleted the message they originally placed here. See talk history. - Drogo Underburrow 07:34, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
About good faith: This policy does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary. Things which can cause the loss of good faith include vandalism, personal attacks, and edit warring. To me, this means that if a person continually editwars in such a fashion where they always revert any criticism of Castro or of Cuba, it exempts others from assuming good faith. But, as I said before, we should be extra nice to those people, after all, they are only doing their jobs. They are probably very nice people. - Drogo Underburrow 06:49, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps one should mention that individual access to the internet is strictly monitored in Cuba. As to private access while the per capita income of the Cuba is perhaps $3,000 (US), almost universally the income of Cubans is less than $240. Thus the only computers available to the average Cuban are in Cuban goverment offices. Remember Cuba is a communist (or choke gasp a "socialist") country, and with the recent crackdown on small business all such computers belong to the state, or heavily monitored foreign interests such as Sherritt. El Jigue 5-12-06
I still cannot believe that Wikipedia had the hubris to block access to vast numbers of US Congress computer. But however now I read here that Cuban government computers, or the offices heavily controlled shared Cuban Goverment/Foreign investment entities are to be considered as pure as the driven snow (that of course is Cuban snow, as in "I walked three miles even through the snow to school in Cuba every day". Truly this is Ley del Embudo (the "law" of the funnel, wide side entry for some, narrow spout admission for others) El Jigue. 5-12-06
That is just "silly" (a euphism for far stronger words). Different network. Can anyone, even here, imagine US Armed forces sharing network with Cuban government El Jigue 5-12-06
it would seem that there are three zeros, missing in "The Spanish retaliated with a campaign of ruthless suppression, herding the rural population into concentration camps where hundreds died. In Europe and the U.S., there were fierce protests against Spain’s behavior." The most reliable data in 2-4 hundreds of thousands was verified by first hand observation, by Red Cross and by US Senator Proctor, and by calculations on population decline done after that war. The term concentration camp is not really accurate, what happened was that the civilian population was concentrated in the cities. The numbers shown at present are not even as large as the data for the Boer War.....
However, this number causes embarassing contrast with the apparently less reliable information on the 1952-1958 Batista years, which according to Cuban goverment sources (citing Bohemia from Ramon Grau San Martin) was 20,000. Of this 1952-1958 data so far only about 2,000 have been verified by independent sources. Personally I think the real number is somewhat larger but certainly not much greater than 3,000. Not that this excuses the killings of Ventura, Caratala etc... El Jigue 5-12-06
Z: One reference on the web is Redfield Proctor [12]. Even that far left "Agent of Influence" Richard Gott in his "Cuba. A new History" (p. 105) citing Hugh Thomas mentions the calculations from population decline. However, Gott is prone not only to bias but to outright errors (such as the place of meeting of Lieutenant Rowan with General Garcia (p. 101), an event that importantly took place in Bayamo on the plains, rather than in the mountains). General Garcia did meet with General Shafter near the coast in the Sierra Maestra mountains but that was later (no bad jokes about the poor over burdened mule that carried the enormously fat Shafter up the mountains). El Jigue 5-12-06
Z: Thank you El Jigue
Z: that is closer to a the real and undescribable horror of those times. El Jigue 5-12-06
Cut from politics section:
Nice sounding words like "serve" and "adoption" make it sound like Castro is leading the people with their consent. Did the people vote on the constitution, or was it imposed from above? Is the body which "elects" Castro appointed by him (see democratic centralism), or is it some sort of parliament answerable to the people? -- Uncle Ed 15:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Reference 17 is in Spanish, is very short and very old (1967). I think you should include an updated version in English. Here is the 2006 version in English.
Two corrections: One image in the Cuba article shows a truck or van with bullet holes in it. In one place, the label underneath the photo says that the truck was involved in the 1957 attack on the Presidential Palace in Havana. If you click on the image, the label underneath the photo changes to read that the truck was used in the 1953 attack on the Moncada Barracks in Santiago. Which is correct?
That truck was apparently one used by the Directorio and the Autentico rebels to attack the Presidential Palace in Havana on March 13, 1957. The attack on the Moncada barracks was July 26, 1953 used automobiles, Castro according to most accounts was unable to complete entry. If you read the signs on the side of the truck they say Havana. El Jigue 5-12-06
The article on Cuban history says, "The 1952 election was contested between Roberto Agramonte of the liberals and Batista, who was seeking a return to office." This is not correct. The two main candidates were the Ortodoxos' Roberto Agramonte and the Auténticos' Carlos Hevia, with Batista running on a small, third party ticket and running a distant third.
The Agramonte vs Hevia is how I remember it El Jigue 5-12-06
This article is still full of errors, e.g. as to the Bay of Pigs, urban the resistance inside Cuba had no warning of impending invasion at least 200,000 were rounded up just at the start of the invasion. The rural resistance "The War Against the Bandits" was ongoing and lasted until at least 1967 or so. This with further details and citations was in the version posted prior to the recent massive, erroneous, and usually uncited "corrections" El Jigue 5-12-06
Thank you Jiggy; instead of just stating 'this that & the other thing' is wrong, please provide the correction, along with cites, & help make this place the article if could be. Bridesmill 02:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. However, I already did this once some time ago. Perhaps the responsibility for this might be more readily attributed to those who removed the previous versions and thus eliminated these cites. El Jigue 5-13-06
Here is an example of removed text:
"The expected urban revolt collapsed when it became clear Brigade 2506 had been abandoned to its fate; and because the Soviet Union warned Castro, who ordered numerous executions and preemptive mass arrests of those thought likely to support a counter-revolution. [13],(Priestland, 2003). Church schools were confiscated, clergy were arrested, [14] and expelled en masse. In the rural central provinces the War Against the Bandits (circa 1959-1965) was suppressed by massed Castro militia, many executions and internal deportations of rebel supporters."
El Jigue 5-13-06
That Castro and/or his image plays a huge role is not doubted. But being an old man, it is getting to the stage where it is difficult to tell exactly how much & how he runs things. Technically, it is the PCC. de facto, Castro is a huge figure in that. But it remains to be seen if he is the only or dominant figure. To assume that this is all Castro (nowadays) is just that - an assumption, and from the perspective of how to handle & understand the place once Castro goes, dangerous hubris to assume we know exactly what is going on in the halls of power. Therefore, recommend the de jure wording that PCC runs the place, with associated de facto that Castro is a helmsman there. In other words, the wording that's there now. Just because we think it is so, does not mean it is - let's stick with what we know for sure. Bridesmill 02:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
One of the problems for those in the second level of the Cuban government who seek power, is that since apparently Castro's life is somehow linked to the resolution of the Missile Crisis, thus he (Raul although only four years younger and even sicker) must be kept alive at all cost so that the regime may survive. Thus one can forecast that Castro will be kept alive even if all this remaining mental functions decay, and he becomes a kind of living Lenin's tomb. El Jigue 5-13-06
Yes, and no matter what shape he is in he will not ever be removed from his position of 'running Cuba'; he will remain the tittular head till he is well & truly dead. That does not mean, however, that he is of necessity the one (or the only one) actually making the day-to-day decisions. May I ask, BTW, why you don't have an account? Bridesmill 14:13, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
It was suggested in a section above that computer access to the internet is allowed, or is available to all in Cuba. This runs contrary to the Guillermo Fariñas circumstance [15]. Guillermo Fariñas according this Reporters without Borders article and many other is/was carrying out a hunger strike to obtain this access. El Jigue 5-13-06
A number of facts were recently introduced that rely on the US State Department as a sole source, chiefly questions of health and literacy indices. Unfortunately, in this specific regard, the US SD must be treated with a high degree of skepticism. The facts published at that site in most cases contradict (by percentage, but just enough to make comparisons to other nations seem less favorable) the plurality of other sources such as WHO, UNESCO, PAHO, Red Cross, and even the CIA World Fact Book. The source isn't totally outside WP:RS, but it's not particularly reliable either. LotLE× talk 17:21, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
WHO and UN in general accept, without critique, Cuban Government Data, even when it includes such oddities as zero (0) infant mortality in remote areas. I had all this referenced but this too has been removed El Jigue 5-13-06
Views from one side selectively deleted:
"The US State Department, citing many independent sources, states that Cuba's infant mortality rate in 1957 was the lowest in Latin America and the 13th lowest in the world, according to UN data. Cuba ranked ahead of France, Belgium, West Germany, Israel, Japan, Austria, Italy, and Spain, all of which would eventually pass Cuba in this indicator during the following decades. Cuba’s comparative world ranking has fallen from 13th to last out of the 25 countries examined. In terms of physicians and dentists per capita, Cuba in 1957 ranked third in Latin America, behind only Uruguay and Argentina -- both of which were more advanced than the United States in this measure. Cuba's physicians and dentists in 1957 was the same as the Netherlands, and ahead of the United Kingdom and Finland. [16]
Pre-Castro Cuba ranked third in Latin America in per capita food consumption but ranked last out of the 11 countries analyzed in terms of percent of increase since 1957. Overall, Cuban per capita food consumption from 1954-1997 has decreased by 11.47 percent. Per capita consumption of cereals, tubers, and meat are today all below 1950's levels. [17]" Ultramarine 17:25, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
This was recently mostly removed. I'm just stashing it here to try to rewrite a more NPOV version:
I see this paragraph as having numerous problems, but let me copy it here to work on a usable version:
Specifically, if Cuba had high indices and adequate nutrution in 1957 while other Latin American countries had inadequate nutrition, I would certainly hope for a caloric increase elsewhere, but would presumably not expect one where it was already adequate. Also, the decrease in a particular food stuff doesn't necessarily say anything about overall nutrition if diets shift. Let me start digging around for citable data. If there's been a real change in nutritional adequacy that's worth mentioning; or also if there was a shortfall already in 1954). LotLE× talk 19:03, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm... just loking at the source, it's interesting the cherry picking and bias. For one thing, all other countries report 1954-57 as the baseline, while inexplicably, they choose 1948-49 as the Cuba baseline. But then looking at some other data:
Mexico: 2,420 → 3,108 (+28.4%) Argentina 3,100 → 3,113 (+0.4%) ... Cuba 2,730 → 2,417 (-11.5%)
The first thing that strikes me here is that Mexicans and Argentines are eating too much! That's not a healthy intake for an average sized person, and indicates obesity. Worse than the USA, apparently (though activity matters too):
Hmmm... this actually puts the Cuban caloric intake in either 1948 or 1997 than US in either 1971 or 2000. That strikes me as a bit anomalous; let me look further. A 1500 calorie diet is a long-term survival level (for an average sized person), but is likely to lead to overall malnutrition. LotLE× talk 19:25, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I am curious if the editors around here can agree on a policy for using POV sources for WP:V?
Eariler, 172 deleted[ [36]] a reference from People's Weekly World, an obvious pro-Cuba reference. Also, earlier, Ultramarine added [37] a reference to Freedom House, an obvious anti-Castro reference. I don't see the logic that it is good to delete one and not the other for POV reasons? We really have two choices, to use POV sourcing, pro and con, or to not. It just isn't right to use only POV sourcing for one POV and not the other. BruceHallman 23:06, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
This is absurd. Information from Freedom House is reliable and consumed by academics all the time. Information from the Communist Party USA is not. Wikipedia is supposed to be seeking to become a serious enyclopedia, not a soapbox for crackpots and fringe groups. 172 | Talk 23:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
As per Bruce. Yes, 172, academics use Freedom House all the time: but they treat it with a healthy dose of skepticism - it does have it's share of biases. Bridesmill 00:09, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
I suppose Freedom Houses's Frank Calzon is biased, after all getting hit over the head from behind in a unprovoked attack by Cuban goverment security "delegate" "diplomat" at Geneva a year or two back will do it to you. The perpetrators were arrested by the Swiss police [39] [40]. Frank is a little fat guy about 50. El Jigue 5-13-06
Apparently I am being too subtle for many. When "diplomats" of government like Cuba (as it has done a number of times), believe it is OK to go out and beat on people in other countries there is ssoemthing very wrong with that government. If in Cuba it is "legal" to organize mobs beat up on sixty year old women who protest peacefully (such as Marta Beatriz Roque Cabello [41]) in a way that even Aljazeera objects [42]), that alone may be taken to suggest that the Cuban government rules by force, and thus, the nonsense here about Cuba being a democracy is patently absurd. El Jigue 5-14-06
Z: beatings of dissidents are becoming quite common now in Cuba. Will try to document a few. El Jigue 05-14-06
Referenced opposing view removed without explanation "The US State Department notes that many other Latin American nations which all ranked just behind Cuba on literacy during the 1950's have equaled or bettered Cuba's improvement when measured in percentage terms. [44]" Ultramarine 16:10, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Referenced opposing view removed: "Cuba remains a Latin American anomaly: an undemocratic government that represses nearly all forms of political dissent. President Fidel Castro, now in his forty-seventh year in power, shows no willingness to consider even minor reforms. Instead, his government continues to enforce political conformity using criminal prosecutions, long- and short-term detentions, mob harassment, police warnings, surveillance, house arrests, travel restrictions, and politically-motivated dismissals from employment. The end result is that Cubans are systematically denied basic rights to free expression, association, assembly, privacy, movement, and due process of law." [48] Ultramarine 18:12, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
This sentence had been in the article, and has gone back-and-forth a bit in the last day. I think that with a good citation it's nicely informative, but not essential certainly. What do folks think?
LotLE× talk 21:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
It is my understanding that it was disappointment to many inside Cuba too. El Jigue 5-14-06
The article states, [Cuba's] culture and customs draw from several sources including ... the island’s close proximity to the United States.
Just what Cuban customs have the United States as its source? What aspect of Cuban culture "draws" from the United States? Drogo Underburrow 02:09, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
this line of ciritism needs to be addressed.
The Cuban American National Foundation and Lawrence Solomon of the Urban Renaissance Institute claim that Cuba masks the truth behind the Cuban health care system. They argue that real Cuban healthcare is abysmal and that what is shown to non-Cuban foreigners is a healthcare system unavailable to the average Cuban. [50] [51] [52] The National Review has made similar criticisms.
This has been deleted multiple times by left wing censors who don't want the information out there. I call bullshit on this censorship. Just because you actually think universal health care can work doesnt mean you have to delete information that suggests it will not. Cut it out.
btw, Milton Friedman gave the economic arguement on why left wing socialists tend to censor information and why capitalists typically will not. Read his book Capitalism and Freedom to figure out why. ( Gibby 03:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC))
Return-Path: <wiki@wikimedia.org> Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 03:52:57 GMT Message-Id: <200605150352.k4F3qvq1023822@localhost.localdomain> X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: apache set sender to wiki@wikimedia.org using -f To: Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters <wikipedia@gnosis.cx> Subject: Wikipedia e-mail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MediaWiki mailer From: KDRGibby <kdrgibby81@yahoo.com>
you are fucking stupid. That is not POV material. My god. You are an idiot and wiki is full of people like you. Stop censoring information and making up bullshit excuses.
It looks like Drogo Underburrow is intent on repeating KDRGibby's 3RR violation. Not there quite yet, but I'll be sure to report it if or when he violates. KDRGibby, appropriately, was blocked for a month—but that's mostly because of prior probation. I assume Drogo's block would be for less time. LotLE× talk 04:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The refs in this article is a complete mess, fix them to footnotes. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 03:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok, but this article is in content revert war, should be protected, or at least every stop editing for like a hour for formatting of refs. Remember we are trying to make this article better and all this revert war won't help. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 04:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
1) Somebody please make a new archive. 2) start a new page 3) write down the title of each chapter as they appear on the article. Comment only those sentences found in a particular chapter chapter. 4) don’t assume readers are stupid. Every single fact presented in the main text is followed by “explanations” meant to influence the readers. Since we have different POVs let’s present the facts as they are, and let the readers to make their own conclusions (e.g. suicide rates, life expectancy etc). Keep comparisons with other countries at minimum. It’s better to put things into context but this could be extremely misleading, keeping in mind you can chose your examples as you wish. If not possible at least keep comparing the same countries.-- Anticom 04:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)