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Manudouz - there is now a major mismatch between the Phylogeny section and the lead section. I see you have added new citations and other materials to the lead. Far from 'clarifying' the article, the phylogeny paragraphs in the lead are now contradictory, out of sequence, and contradictory, with no clear conclusion; the new materials are not summaries of anything in the body of the article, and are not present in the body. We should not have anything 'new' in the lead, and that basically means that we shouldn't have any citations there, barring citations repeated there from the body if anything is actually challenged. The situation right now is in urgent need of sorting out. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 18:57, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
I think it is better to discuss edits on the article's talk page instead of the users' talk pages, as it allows others to decide what is good sources or not.
I added new info and three new references a while ago. Whenever you add something from The National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI)/United States National Library of Medicine (NLM)/National Institutes of Health (NIH), I assume the source is good enough. And apparently, so does Wikipedia considering it doesn't ask for a captcha security check in these cases. The link ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5868061/) is about how chemicals released from other individuals of the same ctenophor species can affect egg production. The other two were from sciencemag.org and sciencealert.com: https://www.sciencealert.com/this-animal-s-butt-appears-when-needed-and-it-could-help-us-understand-how-ours-evolved and [ https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/why-watching-comb-jellies-poop-has-stunned-evolutionary-biologists They're about growing a temporarily anus, as amazing as it may sounds.
But according to the user Zefr, none of these links are good enough, and he posted a message on my page where I was reprimanded for making "unconstructive edits", the last edit I made was reverted just a few minutes after being published. The way I see it, mere mortals trust scientific publications on the net as long as the webpages are trustworthy. So I leave it to others to draw their own conclusions. 84.208.233.159 ( talk) 21:51, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
I find some issues with the following part of the lead, for two reasons.
Of the articles cited in this part of the lead, and younger than ten years, the following support the Porifera-sister theory
and
while the ctenophores were suggested as the sister group of the others in
and as recently as in
{{
cite document}}
: Cite document requires |publisher=
(
help); Unknown parameter |s2cid=
ignored (
help); Unknown parameter |url=
ignored (
help).(However, I do not have access to Berwald's book. Moreover, I note that this book is not included among the 62 references to Li et al. while the other enumerated references are. This, together with the title of Berwald's book, make me guess that the placement of ctenophores or sponges as most far off from the cnidarians was neither a main issue and nor subjected to an independent analysis directly from data in that work. For these reasons, I just concidered on the other references.) Li et al. thoroughly discuss also other investigations; most of those later than 2015 proposed the Porifera-sister theory, but a few instead proposed the Ctenophora-sister theory.
My impression from browsing the four enumerated articles is that the issue is rather technical, and not primarily one of finding more data. Seemingly, more data gave a somewhat firmer support for the Ctenophora-sister theory, but mainly under " site-homogeneous" assumptions. In other words, in the simpler analysis, all amino acids in any given protein in these studies are assumed to have i.i.d. probability for mutating. Under one kind of competing " site-heterogeneous" assumptions, the Porifera-sister theory is preferred. However, Li et al.notes that also some other kinds of "site-heterogeneous" assumptions support the Ctenophora-sister theory.
Biologically, I believe that site-heterogeneity is the more reasonable assumption. However, since this assumption also leads to increased complexity of the calculations, the issue does not seem to be resolved. The fact that the latest re-evaluation article supports the Ctenophora-sister theory, while the majority of those for a couple of years earlier didn't, also indicates that we should describe the issue as "not resolved", I think. This should be reflected both in the lead and in later parts of the article. However, possibly we should describe the Porifera-sister theory as "the majority opinion".
If no-one else has an opinion about this in the next few days, I'll rewrite the part of the lead I cited supra. JoergenB ( talk) 23:09, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
I've read the article and found it very informative, but it leaves me wanting for more. The first suggestion I would like to make is to add Placozoa to the table "Comparison to other major animal groups". I will instantly agree with anyone who does not find the Placozoa a major animal group, but they are more basal animals then Bilatarians (and Cnidarians) and so are more interesting to compare with. Also Cnidocytes and Colloblasts should be removed, since they clearly only developed in the animal group that has them so are not relevant as a means to compare. What is an apical organ? Couldn't find a page that explains it.
The most interesting item in this list is the lack of microRNA in Ctenophora. As the page on microRNA states both plants and animals have them as an essential item. So either they go back a very, very long time or they have been invented in major groups independently (which is a highly unlikely option). Can somebody give the the latest common ground on that item? As sponges also have them, and the consensus is (and has been for >100y) that sponges evolved very early out of (colonial) Choanoflagellates and really went there own separate ways ever since, it is rather hard to imagine microRNA to have evolved 3 times over (in plants, in sponges en animals other then ctenophora). That could be a strong indication that the ctenophora could have split of even earlier then sponges (before micorRNA was invented in the line leading towards animals), but that would still leave the microRNA in plants unexplained. Do Choanoflagellates (or any other group of protists) have microRNA? Or is there really a great difference between (the biochemistry of) plant and animal microRNA and are they just grouped together for convenience as molecules that perform a certain task? If they have the same origin isn't it more likely that the ctenophora have lost them (and might that be a reason for their rather conservative way of live, as compared to f.i. the cnidarians with all those weird parasitic forms which have been around at least since the Cambrium)? Like I said, lots of questions and I hope there is somebody who has some answers.
Finely there seems to be a bit of a "who has the longest..." going on in the debate whether sponges or ctenophora branched of first. Surely some acadamic status is involved, but if ctenophora really split of even earlier then sponges, that would only mean that they, just like sponges, don't have much relevance for the main line of animal evolution, but are a just in their own separate sideshow. Codiv ( talk) 18:00, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
Ctenophora has been listed as one of the Natural sciences good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||
|
This
level-5 vital article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Manudouz - there is now a major mismatch between the Phylogeny section and the lead section. I see you have added new citations and other materials to the lead. Far from 'clarifying' the article, the phylogeny paragraphs in the lead are now contradictory, out of sequence, and contradictory, with no clear conclusion; the new materials are not summaries of anything in the body of the article, and are not present in the body. We should not have anything 'new' in the lead, and that basically means that we shouldn't have any citations there, barring citations repeated there from the body if anything is actually challenged. The situation right now is in urgent need of sorting out. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 18:57, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
I think it is better to discuss edits on the article's talk page instead of the users' talk pages, as it allows others to decide what is good sources or not.
I added new info and three new references a while ago. Whenever you add something from The National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI)/United States National Library of Medicine (NLM)/National Institutes of Health (NIH), I assume the source is good enough. And apparently, so does Wikipedia considering it doesn't ask for a captcha security check in these cases. The link ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5868061/) is about how chemicals released from other individuals of the same ctenophor species can affect egg production. The other two were from sciencemag.org and sciencealert.com: https://www.sciencealert.com/this-animal-s-butt-appears-when-needed-and-it-could-help-us-understand-how-ours-evolved and [ https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/why-watching-comb-jellies-poop-has-stunned-evolutionary-biologists They're about growing a temporarily anus, as amazing as it may sounds.
But according to the user Zefr, none of these links are good enough, and he posted a message on my page where I was reprimanded for making "unconstructive edits", the last edit I made was reverted just a few minutes after being published. The way I see it, mere mortals trust scientific publications on the net as long as the webpages are trustworthy. So I leave it to others to draw their own conclusions. 84.208.233.159 ( talk) 21:51, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
I find some issues with the following part of the lead, for two reasons.
Of the articles cited in this part of the lead, and younger than ten years, the following support the Porifera-sister theory
and
while the ctenophores were suggested as the sister group of the others in
and as recently as in
{{
cite document}}
: Cite document requires |publisher=
(
help); Unknown parameter |s2cid=
ignored (
help); Unknown parameter |url=
ignored (
help).(However, I do not have access to Berwald's book. Moreover, I note that this book is not included among the 62 references to Li et al. while the other enumerated references are. This, together with the title of Berwald's book, make me guess that the placement of ctenophores or sponges as most far off from the cnidarians was neither a main issue and nor subjected to an independent analysis directly from data in that work. For these reasons, I just concidered on the other references.) Li et al. thoroughly discuss also other investigations; most of those later than 2015 proposed the Porifera-sister theory, but a few instead proposed the Ctenophora-sister theory.
My impression from browsing the four enumerated articles is that the issue is rather technical, and not primarily one of finding more data. Seemingly, more data gave a somewhat firmer support for the Ctenophora-sister theory, but mainly under " site-homogeneous" assumptions. In other words, in the simpler analysis, all amino acids in any given protein in these studies are assumed to have i.i.d. probability for mutating. Under one kind of competing " site-heterogeneous" assumptions, the Porifera-sister theory is preferred. However, Li et al.notes that also some other kinds of "site-heterogeneous" assumptions support the Ctenophora-sister theory.
Biologically, I believe that site-heterogeneity is the more reasonable assumption. However, since this assumption also leads to increased complexity of the calculations, the issue does not seem to be resolved. The fact that the latest re-evaluation article supports the Ctenophora-sister theory, while the majority of those for a couple of years earlier didn't, also indicates that we should describe the issue as "not resolved", I think. This should be reflected both in the lead and in later parts of the article. However, possibly we should describe the Porifera-sister theory as "the majority opinion".
If no-one else has an opinion about this in the next few days, I'll rewrite the part of the lead I cited supra. JoergenB ( talk) 23:09, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
I've read the article and found it very informative, but it leaves me wanting for more. The first suggestion I would like to make is to add Placozoa to the table "Comparison to other major animal groups". I will instantly agree with anyone who does not find the Placozoa a major animal group, but they are more basal animals then Bilatarians (and Cnidarians) and so are more interesting to compare with. Also Cnidocytes and Colloblasts should be removed, since they clearly only developed in the animal group that has them so are not relevant as a means to compare. What is an apical organ? Couldn't find a page that explains it.
The most interesting item in this list is the lack of microRNA in Ctenophora. As the page on microRNA states both plants and animals have them as an essential item. So either they go back a very, very long time or they have been invented in major groups independently (which is a highly unlikely option). Can somebody give the the latest common ground on that item? As sponges also have them, and the consensus is (and has been for >100y) that sponges evolved very early out of (colonial) Choanoflagellates and really went there own separate ways ever since, it is rather hard to imagine microRNA to have evolved 3 times over (in plants, in sponges en animals other then ctenophora). That could be a strong indication that the ctenophora could have split of even earlier then sponges (before micorRNA was invented in the line leading towards animals), but that would still leave the microRNA in plants unexplained. Do Choanoflagellates (or any other group of protists) have microRNA? Or is there really a great difference between (the biochemistry of) plant and animal microRNA and are they just grouped together for convenience as molecules that perform a certain task? If they have the same origin isn't it more likely that the ctenophora have lost them (and might that be a reason for their rather conservative way of live, as compared to f.i. the cnidarians with all those weird parasitic forms which have been around at least since the Cambrium)? Like I said, lots of questions and I hope there is somebody who has some answers.
Finely there seems to be a bit of a "who has the longest..." going on in the debate whether sponges or ctenophora branched of first. Surely some acadamic status is involved, but if ctenophora really split of even earlier then sponges, that would only mean that they, just like sponges, don't have much relevance for the main line of animal evolution, but are a just in their own separate sideshow. Codiv ( talk) 18:00, 17 July 2022 (UTC)