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This article says this "is the only crown for a British king or queen to be made of platinum.ref:Mears, Kenneth J. (1988). The Tower of London: 900 Years of English History. Phaidon. p. 152. ISBN 978-0-7148-2527-4." but Queen Alexandra's Crown says that "was made of platinum for lightness,ref: Cruso, Thalassa (1935). Costume. Lancaster House. Retrieved 1 November 2022. 2A00:23C6:148A:9B01:691F:F623:CF1E:F7D3 ( talk) 02:35, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus. No such user ( talk) 09:09, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
– User:Ravenpuff and I initially moved these pages to the suggested titles as they are clearly WP:COMMONNAME, but they were all moved back by User:Estar8806, so we might as well hold a proper RM. The website of the Royal Collection Trust refers to Elizabeth's and Mary's crowns as Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother's Crown and Queen Mary's Crown. Both Mary's and Alexandra's crowns are referred to as Queen Mary's Crown and Queen Alexandra's Crown in a recent article published on The Royal Family's website. The same pattern (Queen [Name]'s Crown) can be observed in secondary sources such as the BBC, NBC, the Guardian, etc., which further proves that the format chosen by Wikipedia is neither common nor accurate. Keivan.f Talk 05:58, 19 February 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal ( talk) 17:24, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
Title | Ngrams | Google news |
---|---|---|
Crown of Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother | Title too long | 56 results |
Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother's Crown | 12 results | |
Crown of Queen Mary | Preference for "Crown of Queen Mary" | Unable to get an accurate count; too many irrelevant results |
Queen Mary's Crown | ||
Crown of Queen Alexandra | Preference for "Crown of Queen Alexandra" | 20 results |
Queen Alexandra's Crown | 10 results | |
Crown of Queen Adelaide | No results | 4 results |
Queen Adelaide's Crown | 5 results |
In English, proper names, which can be either single words or phrases, are typically capitalized.Proper nouns name specific people, things, and places, and these crowns are specific objects. I have already given other examples. And while "crown" is not consistently capitalized, it is capitalized in the majority of online sources and indeed by the official website representing Crown entities. Keivan.f Talk 18:25, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother's Crownand 6 use
Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother's crown. The 12th doesn't use either, with the result being due to a user comment. I assume the result is similar for the others. BilledMammal ( talk) 18:34, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
Instead Camilla, the Queen Consort, will be crowned with Queen Mary's Crown, which has been taken out of the Tower of London to be resized for the 6 May coronation.2)
The Queen Mother's crown (pictured), which has the Koh-i-Noor diamond fitted in the front middle cross, will not be used during the ceremony.So one could argue that there's not a clear cut pattern within online sources, but considering what the official sources say, and the existing examples on specific objects for which we have articles, and MOS:CAPS's stance on specific names and phrases, I don't see why "crown" should not be capitalized. Keivan.f Talk 18:58, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
without an aim toward a long-term, historical view.It is highly unlikely that the official name of these objects might change in the future, not to mention that our focus in this discussion are not the articles' contents but their titles. Keivan.f Talk 20:26, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
Titles for the same kind of subject should not differ in form or structure without good reason.The good reason here is that we know the specific objects discussed here have sources referring to them in a manner not consistent with how Wikipedia has chosen to refer to them. Keivan.f Talk 02:48, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
Use commonly recognizable names. There is no indication that the proposed titles are either uncommon or unrecognizable. All I see in your argument for opposing the move is showcasing a narrow difference in results between the current format and the suggested format on online platforms. Not to mention that you completely excluded the results on Mary's crown, despite the fact that there's a huge preference for the suggested title over the current one, even if you were to eliminate irrelevant results (if there are any). Combine that with the fact that the crowns have their own official "recognizable" names, there would be no need to strictly adhere to what some random website calls these items (for example for "Crown of Queen Alexandra" the first two results are The Juggernaut and The Mirror, both of which are hardly reliable, and WP:TITLE dictates that article titles should be
based on what the subject is called in reliable sources). Keivan.f Talk 02:36, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources). It isn't enough that the alternative name is common, it needs to be more common, or there needs to be a good reason to set aside the common name - for example, WP:CONSISTENT, although that argument is also in favor of the current title.
showcasing a narrow difference in results between the current format and the suggested format on online platformsNgrams is print books, and with the exception of the Crown of Queen Adelaide the difference isn't narrow.
both of which are hardly reliable- WP:DAILYMIRROR, and I don't think The Juggernaut has ever been discussed. However, as I said above, even when we exclude unreliable sources (and include non-independent sources), the common name remains the current title. BilledMammal ( talk) 02:52, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
The Daily Mirror is a tabloid newspaper that publishes tabloid journalism. There is no consensus on whether its reliability is comparable to that of British tabloids such as the Daily Mail and The Sun.Both the Mail and the Sun are deprecated sources, so something that is even slightly on par with them is not the beacon of reliability.
all I wanted was for the titles to match the items' so-called official namesI think that is where the disagreement is coming from; we don't use the official name of an item, we use its common name. BilledMammal ( talk) 03:22, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
more common. Well, I don't see a clear-cut result on the online platforms because frankly there are tons of unreliable sources that must be dismissed. Looking at print sources, there are no results for Elizabeth and Adelaide's crowns on the Ngram whatsoever. That leaves the official sources which, yet again, use different names. Keivan.f Talk 03:34, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
Ratio: 2/3 equals 0.66; "Queen Adelaide's Crown" is more common.By one source; technically accurate, but not a strong argument, and rebutted by the WP:CONSISTENT argument against the move.
There are roughly 48,000 results- WP:GOOGLETEST; You can only get the real number of results by going to the last page of the results; any other method is an extremely inaccurate estimate. At the moment, there is no way to tell what the common name in news sources is for the Crown of Queen Mary; the only source we have there is ngrams, which tells us that the WP:COMMONNAME is the "Crown of Queen Mary".
though singling out Alexandra in this instance makes no sense per WP:TITLECONI agree that singling out just a few crowns makes no sense per WP:CONSISTENT but as there are 27 using "Crown of NAME" and only two using "NAME's crown" wouldn't we be singling out any crowns that we do move? BilledMammal ( talk) 06:30, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
You didn't exclude irrelevant results and non-independent results from your search for Queen Mary's crown.I did exclude the non-independent source which was the Royal Family's website. Go and read the comment again.
I also note that your search results for "Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother's crown" are not accurate; they have the same headlines issue that Queen Mary's crown has.That is the same link provided by you in the table you set up earlier. In fact all the links that I used were provided by you except for the ones covering "Crown of the Queen Mother" and "The Queen Mother's Crown". Are you saying that some of the figures you provided there are invalid as well?
I agree that singling out just a few crowns makes no sense.Wikipedia is not a source for Wikipedia, so the titles and contents of other pages cannot necessarily be used to set up a page in a particular manner. This discussion focuses on the consort crowns used by spouses of the monarchs of the United Kingdom and consistency between articles on objects from a single country makes sense. There's no need to add items from other countries into the equation as we don't even know how they are referred to in their native languages or even in English language.
Are you still proposing that we move this to "Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother's crown", or are you proposing a different title considering this new evidence?Weren't you the one advocating for using common names? Well, let's go with whatever is common. Isn't "The Queen Mother's Crown" the most common of them all? Keivan.f Talk 06:49, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
Go and read the comment again.I didn't realize you edited your comment after my reply. However, you also didn't exclude the irrelevant results.
That is the same link provided by you in the table you set up earlier.Sorry, I was referring to the search result for the "Queen Mother's crown". As far as I am aware, the search result for "Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother's crown" does not have the headline issues the results for "Queen Mary's crown" and the "Queen Mother's crown" does.
Wikipedia is not a source for Wikipedia, so the titles and contents of other pages cannot necessarily be used to set up a page in a particular manner.Yes, they can, per WP:CONSISTENT.
Isn't "The Queen Mother's Crown" the most common of them all?Not, I believe, when you exclude irrelevant results. However, that also isn't the current proposal; perhaps strike it from this discussion and open a new one for that article? BilledMammal ( talk) 07:00, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
You also didn't exclude the irrelevant results.I doubt that will reduce the numbers significantly but I'll have a look again once I find some free time.
Perhaps strike it from this discussion and open a new one for that article?Well, to be honest I have seen proposals where the page is not moved to the name suggested by the nominator but to the name the community decides is the common one. So, if a consensus is established here that "The Queen Mother's Crown" is indeed the common name, I bet there won't be an obstacle to moving the page.
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 20:08, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Crown of Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article says this "is the only crown for a British king or queen to be made of platinum.ref:Mears, Kenneth J. (1988). The Tower of London: 900 Years of English History. Phaidon. p. 152. ISBN 978-0-7148-2527-4." but Queen Alexandra's Crown says that "was made of platinum for lightness,ref: Cruso, Thalassa (1935). Costume. Lancaster House. Retrieved 1 November 2022. 2A00:23C6:148A:9B01:691F:F623:CF1E:F7D3 ( talk) 02:35, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus. No such user ( talk) 09:09, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
– User:Ravenpuff and I initially moved these pages to the suggested titles as they are clearly WP:COMMONNAME, but they were all moved back by User:Estar8806, so we might as well hold a proper RM. The website of the Royal Collection Trust refers to Elizabeth's and Mary's crowns as Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother's Crown and Queen Mary's Crown. Both Mary's and Alexandra's crowns are referred to as Queen Mary's Crown and Queen Alexandra's Crown in a recent article published on The Royal Family's website. The same pattern (Queen [Name]'s Crown) can be observed in secondary sources such as the BBC, NBC, the Guardian, etc., which further proves that the format chosen by Wikipedia is neither common nor accurate. Keivan.f Talk 05:58, 19 February 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal ( talk) 17:24, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
Title | Ngrams | Google news |
---|---|---|
Crown of Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother | Title too long | 56 results |
Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother's Crown | 12 results | |
Crown of Queen Mary | Preference for "Crown of Queen Mary" | Unable to get an accurate count; too many irrelevant results |
Queen Mary's Crown | ||
Crown of Queen Alexandra | Preference for "Crown of Queen Alexandra" | 20 results |
Queen Alexandra's Crown | 10 results | |
Crown of Queen Adelaide | No results | 4 results |
Queen Adelaide's Crown | 5 results |
In English, proper names, which can be either single words or phrases, are typically capitalized.Proper nouns name specific people, things, and places, and these crowns are specific objects. I have already given other examples. And while "crown" is not consistently capitalized, it is capitalized in the majority of online sources and indeed by the official website representing Crown entities. Keivan.f Talk 18:25, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother's Crownand 6 use
Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother's crown. The 12th doesn't use either, with the result being due to a user comment. I assume the result is similar for the others. BilledMammal ( talk) 18:34, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
Instead Camilla, the Queen Consort, will be crowned with Queen Mary's Crown, which has been taken out of the Tower of London to be resized for the 6 May coronation.2)
The Queen Mother's crown (pictured), which has the Koh-i-Noor diamond fitted in the front middle cross, will not be used during the ceremony.So one could argue that there's not a clear cut pattern within online sources, but considering what the official sources say, and the existing examples on specific objects for which we have articles, and MOS:CAPS's stance on specific names and phrases, I don't see why "crown" should not be capitalized. Keivan.f Talk 18:58, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
without an aim toward a long-term, historical view.It is highly unlikely that the official name of these objects might change in the future, not to mention that our focus in this discussion are not the articles' contents but their titles. Keivan.f Talk 20:26, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
Titles for the same kind of subject should not differ in form or structure without good reason.The good reason here is that we know the specific objects discussed here have sources referring to them in a manner not consistent with how Wikipedia has chosen to refer to them. Keivan.f Talk 02:48, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
Use commonly recognizable names. There is no indication that the proposed titles are either uncommon or unrecognizable. All I see in your argument for opposing the move is showcasing a narrow difference in results between the current format and the suggested format on online platforms. Not to mention that you completely excluded the results on Mary's crown, despite the fact that there's a huge preference for the suggested title over the current one, even if you were to eliminate irrelevant results (if there are any). Combine that with the fact that the crowns have their own official "recognizable" names, there would be no need to strictly adhere to what some random website calls these items (for example for "Crown of Queen Alexandra" the first two results are The Juggernaut and The Mirror, both of which are hardly reliable, and WP:TITLE dictates that article titles should be
based on what the subject is called in reliable sources). Keivan.f Talk 02:36, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources). It isn't enough that the alternative name is common, it needs to be more common, or there needs to be a good reason to set aside the common name - for example, WP:CONSISTENT, although that argument is also in favor of the current title.
showcasing a narrow difference in results between the current format and the suggested format on online platformsNgrams is print books, and with the exception of the Crown of Queen Adelaide the difference isn't narrow.
both of which are hardly reliable- WP:DAILYMIRROR, and I don't think The Juggernaut has ever been discussed. However, as I said above, even when we exclude unreliable sources (and include non-independent sources), the common name remains the current title. BilledMammal ( talk) 02:52, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
The Daily Mirror is a tabloid newspaper that publishes tabloid journalism. There is no consensus on whether its reliability is comparable to that of British tabloids such as the Daily Mail and The Sun.Both the Mail and the Sun are deprecated sources, so something that is even slightly on par with them is not the beacon of reliability.
all I wanted was for the titles to match the items' so-called official namesI think that is where the disagreement is coming from; we don't use the official name of an item, we use its common name. BilledMammal ( talk) 03:22, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
more common. Well, I don't see a clear-cut result on the online platforms because frankly there are tons of unreliable sources that must be dismissed. Looking at print sources, there are no results for Elizabeth and Adelaide's crowns on the Ngram whatsoever. That leaves the official sources which, yet again, use different names. Keivan.f Talk 03:34, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
Ratio: 2/3 equals 0.66; "Queen Adelaide's Crown" is more common.By one source; technically accurate, but not a strong argument, and rebutted by the WP:CONSISTENT argument against the move.
There are roughly 48,000 results- WP:GOOGLETEST; You can only get the real number of results by going to the last page of the results; any other method is an extremely inaccurate estimate. At the moment, there is no way to tell what the common name in news sources is for the Crown of Queen Mary; the only source we have there is ngrams, which tells us that the WP:COMMONNAME is the "Crown of Queen Mary".
though singling out Alexandra in this instance makes no sense per WP:TITLECONI agree that singling out just a few crowns makes no sense per WP:CONSISTENT but as there are 27 using "Crown of NAME" and only two using "NAME's crown" wouldn't we be singling out any crowns that we do move? BilledMammal ( talk) 06:30, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
You didn't exclude irrelevant results and non-independent results from your search for Queen Mary's crown.I did exclude the non-independent source which was the Royal Family's website. Go and read the comment again.
I also note that your search results for "Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother's crown" are not accurate; they have the same headlines issue that Queen Mary's crown has.That is the same link provided by you in the table you set up earlier. In fact all the links that I used were provided by you except for the ones covering "Crown of the Queen Mother" and "The Queen Mother's Crown". Are you saying that some of the figures you provided there are invalid as well?
I agree that singling out just a few crowns makes no sense.Wikipedia is not a source for Wikipedia, so the titles and contents of other pages cannot necessarily be used to set up a page in a particular manner. This discussion focuses on the consort crowns used by spouses of the monarchs of the United Kingdom and consistency between articles on objects from a single country makes sense. There's no need to add items from other countries into the equation as we don't even know how they are referred to in their native languages or even in English language.
Are you still proposing that we move this to "Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother's crown", or are you proposing a different title considering this new evidence?Weren't you the one advocating for using common names? Well, let's go with whatever is common. Isn't "The Queen Mother's Crown" the most common of them all? Keivan.f Talk 06:49, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
Go and read the comment again.I didn't realize you edited your comment after my reply. However, you also didn't exclude the irrelevant results.
That is the same link provided by you in the table you set up earlier.Sorry, I was referring to the search result for the "Queen Mother's crown". As far as I am aware, the search result for "Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother's crown" does not have the headline issues the results for "Queen Mary's crown" and the "Queen Mother's crown" does.
Wikipedia is not a source for Wikipedia, so the titles and contents of other pages cannot necessarily be used to set up a page in a particular manner.Yes, they can, per WP:CONSISTENT.
Isn't "The Queen Mother's Crown" the most common of them all?Not, I believe, when you exclude irrelevant results. However, that also isn't the current proposal; perhaps strike it from this discussion and open a new one for that article? BilledMammal ( talk) 07:00, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
You also didn't exclude the irrelevant results.I doubt that will reduce the numbers significantly but I'll have a look again once I find some free time.
Perhaps strike it from this discussion and open a new one for that article?Well, to be honest I have seen proposals where the page is not moved to the name suggested by the nominator but to the name the community decides is the common one. So, if a consensus is established here that "The Queen Mother's Crown" is indeed the common name, I bet there won't be an obstacle to moving the page.
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 20:08, 10 May 2023 (UTC)