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Starting translation from Spanish wikipedia
-- Ajrs 22:07, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Like Kingdom of Castille, it would be good to see anyone who is proficient in Spanish to take up this one. Orchid Righteous 17:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I have translated the first couple of sections from the Spanish original so that there was more detailed information, please feel free to correct any translation errors - there shouldn't be as its not too hard, I didn't attempt to translate the old Castillian language quotes though! I'm not sure that the section on universities is correctly titled as the universities seem more like a side note that a causal factor! What does anybody think? Jonny1047 16:59, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I've added an info box while translating as the Spanish one had loads of info in! not sure if its the right one, as in if there is one specifically for historical developments of countries, so I put in the former countries one for now! Anyone please change it if there is a better one! Also I can't get the arms of Castile and León to come up - I think coz they aren't set up as arms on their respective pages! Jonny1047 17:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Jim.henderson for improving the English in my translation, another set of eyes is always appreciated - when you read your own work its hard to spot the errors! Also sometimes its hard to get out of the mind set of the other language! Jonny1047 12:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry about the over tagging of dates, I just linked everything that was linked in the Spanish version! on your point about Columbus, in the spanish wikipedia it says: "El título de Almirante en todas las tierras que descubriese o ganase en la mar Océana, con carácter hereditario y con el mismo rango que el Almirante de Castilla." basically that he became admiral of any territories he discovered and it is similar to the title of Admiral of Castile. I can't find any info on Castillo - it means castle so it wouldn't make sense for him to be admiral of Castle! Jonny1047 16:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'm finished translating, I'm sure the english could be better written but its understandable - I'll try and tidy it up at some point! So now that its done should we remove the in translation box? I didn't want to just do it so I thought I'd put it on here first! Also can we tag any pages like that as there are a few links on the spanish version with no english equivalent that I was thinking of creating and translating! The biggest is the Crown of Aragon - although there seems to be some confusion between the spanish versions for crown and kingdom of aragon so I'll have to do a bit of research and figure that out first! Jonny1047 12:11, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
el reino de castilla paso a llamarse reyno de España por causas politicas, para evitar discusiones tontas entr los "Nobles y los dtractores. de esa manera salio el reyno de España, ahunque ya existia esa unidad con los Godos, es de logica, si un reino ocupa el 80 por ciento del territorio y el 90% de lo conquitado en el resto del mundo baja su bandera, ¿como podria llamarse Castilla? no la llamaron España. ¡Haaa! otra cosa si Isabel de Castilla no se hubiera casado con Fernando de aragon, el Reyno de Aragon hubiera desaparecido 'Un saludo y gracias! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.159.215.184 ( talk) 21:26, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
The Crown of Castile began in 1230 indeed, it began with the union of the kingdom of Castile with her "father" kingdom of León. Period. In medieval Spain there are 4 and only 4 christian kingdoms: León, Castile, Aragón and Navarre. Period. Galicia was never a proper kingdom , she was part of the Kingdom of León, the title "kingdom" was but honorary.The reason for this "mistake" here is Galician nationalist movements. We all know any nationalism needs a history (be it real or not), so there are some people very active in the net (particularly here in Wikipedia) that have set out to re-write history to their convenience. And everyone who knows a bit of Spanish political reality knows how radical and fanatical this nationalist movements are, which is all all right for idealist people defending their nations to be, but history is history and wikipedia users shouldn't be victims of this political fanatism. Cornelius71 ( talk) 15:42, 2 April 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cornelius71 ( talk • contribs) 15:38, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the "kingdoms" myself. Were the "kingdoms" like Toldeo and Granada mere provinces of a larger state called the Crown of Castile, or were they more akin to the Crown of Aragon: several independent kingdoms in personal union (in that case Aragon, Valencia, and Catalonia)? Emperor001 ( talk) 15:54, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
I know from past reading that the figure of over 8.2 million in 1595 is incorrect, and applies to all of Spain, including Aragon, not just of Castile. From memory the actual figure for Castile was about 6 million but I don't have a reliable source.
The Crown of Castile was abolished in 1715. The Crown of Aragon was already abolished in 1707. The Council of Castile, not the crown, was abolished much later. This is what the sources say. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 17:20, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
This seems to be part of a campaign across multiple wikipedias, to introduce information that is not supported by sources. The information in English wikipedia was first added by Santos30 [1]. Santos30 was blocked in Spanish wikipedia because he was socking to generate false support for his ideas. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 17:38, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
discussion in Spanish wikipedia about Santos30 inserting unsourced information and propagating it to the English wikipedia. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 17:42, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Also, the Indies were not proper part of the Crown until after the death of Ferdinand the Catholic, when it was all unified as Spain. This means that this map is not an accurate portrait of the Crown of Castile. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 19:46, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
-- Santos30 ( talk) 23:44, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
This is not the History of liberalism of course all the kingdoms are personal property of the kings. Juan Carlos I of Spain is constitutional monarch (not Absolute monarchy) the current bearer of the Spanish Crown is not a personal property.
-- Santos30 ( talk) 02:31, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
I have to say that Santos30, who is obviously Castilian himself, is insensitive in, first confusing the Kingdom Spain during the 18th century with the Crown of Castile. Secondly, the country is referred to as Spain by both contemporaries and historians during the 18th century and indeed from the 16th century onwards, as all the territories in modern-day Spain were ruled by the same monarch, the King of Spain. Castile and Aragon united dynastically into Spain with the Catholic Monarchs or Charles I. Maps refer to the united country as Spain in the 18th century, albeit in Latin. So you are completely wrong, Santos30, and probably deluded. Thirdly, your aggressive Castilian national sentiment borders on imperialism as you tell the English-speaking world that, yes there was the Crown of CAstile and the Crown of Aragon, but Castile 'annexed' Aragon, Valencia and Catalonia. That Catalonia was just a region of Castile during the 18th century is very insulting and demeaning to the Catalan people. Yes, the Crown of Aragon was abolished by the government in Madrid, which was indeed the Capital of Castile. But the two joined together politically as the Kingdom of Spain. At least the Spanish authorities of the time, 1715 that is, had more respect towards the peoples of Spain than you in calling the unified country by an all-inclusive name 'Spain' from the Roman name of the Iberian peninsula, than just call the country after the dominant region or former country. You were blocked from Spanish Wikipedia, I just hope you are blocked from the English one, before you go around upsetting people!! And for you info, I am not Catalan, I am half Castilian myself, but I respect the other peoples of Spain. Just accept that you are ignorant and biased. 109.154.249.15 ( talk) 18:21, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
You two are broking every single rule of wikipedia on this edit war. I suggest you settle your differences here before both of you ended up being blocked from editing. I'll revert the page to the stat before this mess started. Jack Bufalo Head ( talk) 21:39, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
-- Santos30 ( talk) 13:09, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
-- Santos30 ( talk) 04:49, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
-- Santos30 ( talk) 10:29, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Did the the Crown of Castile end in...
The discussion and sources are above. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 11:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
2.51.180.28 ( talk) 04:51, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
-- Santos30 ( talk) 10:17, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
I translate a comment from the Spanish wikipedia:
I have seen on occasions how he "inserted" a well-disguised lie at the English Wikipedia and the users who attempted to reverse (in my experience, users from the Spanish Wikipedia) chrashed again and again into a wall and finally the usual troll got away with his intentions. Long ago I lost great part of my interest to discuss there.
Mind you, the question that you offer is tricky. I do not think there is any source that specifies when the Crown of Castile disappeared. In Wikipedia we put for both Castile and Aragon the dates of the implementation of the decrees of New Plant. In Aragon that can be more clear by the fact that most of its institutions disappear, but I doubt there's a book that says exactly the year you can give as "disappeared" the Crown of Aragon. In Castile it may not be so clear, but the situation is similar. In this case, its institutions are not "eliminated", but it is true that extend its authority over all the monarchy (except for some particular case). Technically wh could say that the institutions of Castile cease to exist from the moment that extend all other territories and are no longer "its own". Considering that the Aragonese Crown no longer exists because it no longer have its "its own" institutions, we can make a comparison with the Castilian case and and say that the Crown of Castile ceases to exist for the same reason: it stops having "its own" institutions and is governed by the same (almost) as all the Monarchy (although, technically, one and the other are the same).
Of course, the problem you've found you, can forward it to Santos30. What references can he provide that explicitly say that the Crown of Castile disappeared in 1812? And I say "explicit" because it is very likely that, accustomed as he is to the misrepresentation of sources, try casting as proof something like the disappearance of the Council of Castile or some text of the very Constitution. The latter is easy to refute, it is a primary source and also it nowhere abolished the Crown of Castile. As for the Council, as just discussed, despite its name, it was not typical of Castile, but of Spain. Moreover, this institution disappeared in 1809, to re-created in 1810, to return to disappear in 1812, re-establishing itself in 1814, to disappear again in 1820, only to reappear in 1823 and finally abolished in 1834. So which of these dates is intended Santos30 establish the demise of the Crown of Castile? Why 1812? Why not any other? Of course the argument of joining the existence of the Crown to the Council is absurd.
Another argument to consider would be the existence of other council besides that "of Castile". And, like this one, all extended their jurisdiction over (almost) all the Monarchy after the end of the War of Succession. All of Castile, War, Treasury, etc. had authority over Spain, not only over one of the Crowns. As in the case of the Council of Castile, the other disappeared and appeared intermittently at the beginning of century XIX until its final abolition in 1834. This date marked the end point of the old (and decadent) council system, the disappearance of the remnants of the old regime. But this process in any way can be equated with the demise of the Crowns, as these had long ago been "rolled over" with the introduction of a genuine single monarchy.
All it could be said is that the Crown of Castile survived just as territorial division, but nothing more. When in 1833 it was established the current division into provinces, it was talked, among many others, of the kingdom of Aragon, Jaen or Leon, but that does not mean these kingdoms continued to exist as entities themselves, but as mere territorial divisions inherited from the old kingdoms. The same happened with the Crown of Castile (and with the Crown of Aragon). So, for example, when Charles III named a Decree of 1783 corregidores "in the Crown of Castile" and "in the Crown of Aragon", it is not stating that both the one and the other survive as separate crowns.
Following Santos30's distorted vision, if the Crown of Castile survived until the s. XIX, the Crown of Aragon did so, since, simply, they just changed the laws that governed them. It is obviously absurd. [13] Durero, 23 Nov 2012.
-- Enric Naval ( talk) 21:49, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
-- Santos30 ( talk) 22:14, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
I made a topic ban proposal, but it's getting very little input from the community. Apparently, people are not commenting because they are not familiar with the topic. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 12:02, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
I translate a comment from the Spanish wikipedia, with comments on why Santos30 is interpreting sources incorrectly [14]:
So, from Philip V to the reform of Mon (1845), there existed in Spain three different tax systems:
Crown of Aragon (Aragon, Catalonia, Mallorca and VALENCIA [sic]).
Crown of Castile.
Provinces exempt (Vascongadas and Navarra).— Berné Valero, José Luis; Femenia Ribera, Carmen; Aznar Bellver, Jerónimo (2004). Catastro y valoración catastral. Universidad Politécnica de Valencia. Page 41
(...) a war, civil and European [the Spanish War of Succession] arising from dynastic issues would serve as a pretext to achieve the desired legal uniformity in Spain (...) the concept of nationality began to identify itself with that of Spain on the basis of a non contrasted Castilian dominance over all other communities with historic right.
(...) As they expanded into the new territories the Castilian political and administrative institutions, they acquired for the first time a national scope and the Castilian law began to identify with the new "national law" or Spanish [law]". This was it left behind the heterogeneous political morphology of the Spanish monarchy, replacing its traditional political, legal and administrative diversity for an unitary State in all its aspects, except those affecting private Law.
(...) So, the old viceroyalmies of the Crown of Aragon were organized as provinces and general captaincies, the same as happened in the rest of Spain, except Navarra and Vascongadas, who kept their genuine institutions until the nineteenth century.
(...) Thus, the Spanish scene was divided, from the governative perspective, in general captaincies and audiencias, which exercised a kind of collegial governance. These were: Old Castile, Seville, Granada, Extremadura, Galicia, Asturias, Aragon, Catalonia, Valencia, Mallorca and the Canary Islands.— Martinez Ruiz, Enrique (dir.) (2007). Diccionario de historia moderna de España. Volumen II: la Administración. Ed. Akal. Págs. 133-137
Consequence of the abolition of the Aragonese fueros was the disappearance of customs offices to the Castilian crown [...] the Basque-Navarre constituted itself as its own customsspace, open to foreign trade, but clearly differentiated from the Castile-Aragon block.
(...) It was expressly abolished the privilege of Aliens, i.e. the hitherto existing obligation that royal officials were natives of the kingdoms.
(...) Both territorial sets [the crowns of Castile and Aragon] formed a single customs area subject to the payment of the "general revenue". Unlike them, Navarra and the Basque Country were "exempt provinces" of this tax system and enjoyed broad administrative autonomy.— Corona Bratech, Carlos E.; Armillas Vicente, José Antonio (coord.) (1990). Historia general de España y América. Tomo X. Volumen 2. Ed. Rialp. Págs. 14; 114-121
The Courts of the eighteenth century were a kind of General Courts of the Monarchy' in which the procuradores of Castilla 'had joined other representing Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia, 'which had lost their own courts following the Spanish Succession War.
— Pérez Samper, María Angeles (1988), «Yo el Rey. Poder y sociedad entre dos reinados». En Boletín de la Real Academia de la Historia. Tomo CLXXXV. Pág. 583
-- Enric Naval ( talk) 10:29, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
Another source:
La pérdida de los dominios europeos se compensó con la intensificación del poder real, como consecuencia de la Nueva Planta en los reinos de la Corona de Aragón. Pero no se llegó a una formulación jurídica precisa de la nueva unidad política. Podemos comparar este hecho con otro acontecimiento del mismo orden de la época: el Acta de Unión de 1707, por el cual los Parlamentos de Inglaterra y Escocia proclamaban la fusión de ambos reinos en una unidad superior que se llamaría precisamente el Reino Unido de la Gran Bretaña. Fácilmente se observan las diferencias con la versión española. No sólo porque en nuestro caso no hubo un Parlamento que autorizase la mayor imbricación de los reinos, sino porque no se produjo la proclamación formal de la nueva unidad. Los decretos de Nueva Planta indicaron que los nuevos reinos deberían gobernarse como los de la Corona de Castilla, 'sin la menor diferencia en nada' (decreto de abolición de los fueros de Aragón y Valencia, 1707) o señalaron la forma en que debían regirse en adelante (Nueva Planta de Cataluña y Mallorca), pero no declararon la unión de ambas Coronas en una entidad superior. El proceso de unificación quedó falto de una proclamación formal y jurídica, aunque a nadie escapaba la realidad de una unificación basada en Ejército, la burocracia y el conjunto del aparato del Estado. Pero los monarcas conservaron hasta el siglo XIX su compleja titulación que enumeraba un conjunto de reinos reducidos en la práctica a entidades administrativas, y a veces ni siquiera esto. Luis Suárez Fernández (1984). Historia general de España y América: Hasta el final del reinado de Carlos IV. La España de las reformas. Ediciones Rialp. p. 87. ISBN 978-84-321-2106-7. Retrieved 31 December 2012.
Another message from eswiki [16]:
Charles Arnold-Baker (2001), The Companion to British History (2, revised, illustrated, reprint ed.), Routledge, pp. 1161, ISBN 9780415185837, "Louis XIV accepted [in 1700] on behald of his grandson, who succeeded as Philip V on condition that the Crowns of France and Spain should never be united. (...) This provoked the great War of the Spanish Succession. (...) Barcelona fell in 1714 and the Aragonese privileges were abolished. Spain had become one country."
Vicent de Melchor, Albert Branchadell, Vicent de Melchor (2002), El catalán: Una lengua de Europa para compartir, Univ. Autònoma de Barcelona, pp. 106-107, ISBN 9788449022999, "Mas que con los Reyes Católicos (a finales del siglo XV), como todavia suele repetirse, es a partir de Felipe V (a principios del sigo XVIII) cuando podemos comenzar a considerar España como un Estado auténticamente unificado o, mejor, unitario: es a partir de entonces cuando podemos empezar a hablar con propiedad de un rey de España o de una Corona de España y, consecuentemente de un Reino de España."
-- Enric Naval ( talk) 17:03, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
-- Santos30 ( talk) 12:53, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
I recover references deleted and wait for citation needed and put template POV for 1715 in infobox.-- Santos30 ( talk) 23:11, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
Did the Crown of Castile end in 1715 or 1716? The last of the Nueva Planta decrees abolished the County of Barcelona in 1716, merging it with the Crown of Castile. 86.97.146.6 ( talk) 06:20, 10 January 2013 (UTC) Payne says "approximately 1715".
Spain as a single united polity dates from approximately 1715, and the model for its eighteenth-century royalist regime was the governing system of the Bourbon dynasty of France. The separate fueros of Aragón and Valencia were abolished in 1707 and the administrative system of Castile extended over those territories. This brought abolition of the socially progressive changes in legal jurisdiction over peasant lands that had been decreed by the Habsburg pretender. Catalonia was also incorporated into the central system under terms of the Nueva Planta decree of 1716.
— A History of Spain and Portugal, Vol. 2, Stanley G. Payne, Chapter 16: The Eighteenth-Century Bourbon Regime in Spain
The fueros of Aragon and Valencia were already taken away with the 1707 Nueva Planta Decree, but Felipe V couldn't impose them until he squashed the rebellions.
Legally, the War of Spanish Succession ended with the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht, but Majorca and Ibiza were not taken until 1715. In the last section of the Spanish-language version you can see more battles that are considered part of the war, even if it was already finished.
The trick is this: the Catalonia decree was written in 9 October 1715, but it wasn't issued until 16 January 1716. By that time Majorca had been taken, and the last resistance in Catalonia had been defeated in Siege of Barcelona (1713–1714). Obviously, many historians think that the date of 1715, or "approximately 1715", is more accurate. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 15:14, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for the explanation. I understand now. 86.97.146.6 ( talk) 05:58, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
If you have reliable sources that support the date of 1714, then present them here. Note that the County of Barcelona was merged into the Crown of Aragon centuries before 1714. It became part of the Crown, and was called "Catalonia" or "Principado". Note that "Catalonia inside the Crown of Aragon" is not the same as "the County of Barcelona". Paybe only talks about Catalonia. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 18:08, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
I notice that after 1521, the year the
Revolt of the Comuneros ended, very little is mentioned about the history of the Crown. This is especially bad since many things happened during this period (wars in Europe especially). Can someone add this much needed information? I would be glad to help.
Thanks
86.97.146.6 (
talk)
06:04, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Were cities such as Oran, Algiers, Bougie, Biserta, and Tunis controlled by the Crown of Castile or the Crown of Aragon? 86.97.146.6 ( talk) 06:09, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
El reino de Castilla paso a llamarse reyno de España por causas politicas, para evitar discusiones tontas entr los "Nobles y los dtractores. de esa manera salio el reyno de España, ahúnque ya existia esa unidad con los Godos, es de logica, si un reino ocupa el 80 por ciento del territorio y el 90% de lo conquistado en el resto del mundo bajo su bandera, ¿como podria llamarse Castilla? ¡no! la llamaron España. ¡Haaa! otra cosa si Isabel de Castilla no se hubiera casado con Fernando de Aragon, el Reyno de Aragon hubiera desaparecido 'Un saludo y gracias! -- 79.159.215.184 ( talk) 21:44, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
The article needs to make up its mind if it wants to be about a state (as in Spain) or about a title (institution, as in Monarchy of Spain).
Castile and Léon existed as a state between 1230 and 1516. After 1516, the title continued to exist, of course, but the state and territory just became (the core) part of Habsburg Spain. The title of king of Castile is still claimed by the current King of Spain, so it is meaningless to claim that the "Crown of Castile" was "disestablished in 1715". Either it was disestablished in 1506/16, ceasing to exist as a separate entity, or it was never disestablished, as it survives as a purely nominal title. -- dab (𒁳) 16:14, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
The gif image which shows the evolution of the territorial expansion of the Crown contains a good deal of severe inaccuracies. To name just one, The Kingdom of Leon (including Galicia, which was part of it, not a separate entity like the gif implies) was not "annexed" to the "already existing (1217 (!!))" "Crown" of Castile: The "Kingdom" of Castile fused with the Kingdom of Leon in 1230 for being under the same sovereign (it was not annexed), and this formed the "Crown" of Castile in 1230. This gif implies that the "Crown" of Castile existed already in 1217 (false, it was still a Kingdom) and annexed Leon and an independent (false) Galicia, which is a very important mistake. The Spanish version of this gif which served as template for this version was corrected a year ago and so this one should be corrected too. The other mistakes have been fixed there too. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mapa_de_la_Corona_de_Castilla.gif I have contacted the author who fixed the Spanish version to see if he could do the same with this one, as I don't know how to do it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.54.84.68 ( talk) 23:58, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
I have removed denominations in the infobox in galician, leonese, basque. I think it is unnecessary editorializing that clutters the infobox and I sticked to latin and spanish (latin and the romance vernacular (old spanish) were the languages of the royal chancellery in the Middle Ages. They are featured as note in the lead anyways. I am aware even this can be a dubious construct, as the romance vernacular and middle spanish were different from modern spanish and the Castiella denomination was probably also a common term in sources back then in the romance vernacular (old castilian). Supposing you need to include every language spoken there in the infobox brings bad editorializing (think Ottoman empire or Austrian Empire).-- Asqueladd ( talk) 11:03, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Hi Asqueladd, I definitely agree that my edit does not belong under the statement "The two kingdoms had been united twice previously:", so I have changed its location in the section. This article is not about the unification of Leon and Castile, it is about the Crown of Castile, with the invasion of Navarre and subsequent annexation of Gipuzkoa, Álava and Durango are major events for that crown. I do have some grasp of the topic, and this event, as well as the forced incorporation of these territories and the different status held by these districts in the Crown of Castile are conspicuously missing.
Also, I am not sure what your objection is to the dates. Iñaki LL ( talk) 21:40, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
the two articles are really similar and both should merge. The french guru ( talk) 03:08, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
Any explanation of why these were added? Perhaps we could find actual working links to add? Because right now this arguably does not look very aesthetically pleasing Aliy Dawut ( talk) 00:42, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
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Starting translation from Spanish wikipedia
-- Ajrs 22:07, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Like Kingdom of Castille, it would be good to see anyone who is proficient in Spanish to take up this one. Orchid Righteous 17:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I have translated the first couple of sections from the Spanish original so that there was more detailed information, please feel free to correct any translation errors - there shouldn't be as its not too hard, I didn't attempt to translate the old Castillian language quotes though! I'm not sure that the section on universities is correctly titled as the universities seem more like a side note that a causal factor! What does anybody think? Jonny1047 16:59, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I've added an info box while translating as the Spanish one had loads of info in! not sure if its the right one, as in if there is one specifically for historical developments of countries, so I put in the former countries one for now! Anyone please change it if there is a better one! Also I can't get the arms of Castile and León to come up - I think coz they aren't set up as arms on their respective pages! Jonny1047 17:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Jim.henderson for improving the English in my translation, another set of eyes is always appreciated - when you read your own work its hard to spot the errors! Also sometimes its hard to get out of the mind set of the other language! Jonny1047 12:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry about the over tagging of dates, I just linked everything that was linked in the Spanish version! on your point about Columbus, in the spanish wikipedia it says: "El título de Almirante en todas las tierras que descubriese o ganase en la mar Océana, con carácter hereditario y con el mismo rango que el Almirante de Castilla." basically that he became admiral of any territories he discovered and it is similar to the title of Admiral of Castile. I can't find any info on Castillo - it means castle so it wouldn't make sense for him to be admiral of Castle! Jonny1047 16:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'm finished translating, I'm sure the english could be better written but its understandable - I'll try and tidy it up at some point! So now that its done should we remove the in translation box? I didn't want to just do it so I thought I'd put it on here first! Also can we tag any pages like that as there are a few links on the spanish version with no english equivalent that I was thinking of creating and translating! The biggest is the Crown of Aragon - although there seems to be some confusion between the spanish versions for crown and kingdom of aragon so I'll have to do a bit of research and figure that out first! Jonny1047 12:11, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
el reino de castilla paso a llamarse reyno de España por causas politicas, para evitar discusiones tontas entr los "Nobles y los dtractores. de esa manera salio el reyno de España, ahunque ya existia esa unidad con los Godos, es de logica, si un reino ocupa el 80 por ciento del territorio y el 90% de lo conquitado en el resto del mundo baja su bandera, ¿como podria llamarse Castilla? no la llamaron España. ¡Haaa! otra cosa si Isabel de Castilla no se hubiera casado con Fernando de aragon, el Reyno de Aragon hubiera desaparecido 'Un saludo y gracias! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.159.215.184 ( talk) 21:26, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
The Crown of Castile began in 1230 indeed, it began with the union of the kingdom of Castile with her "father" kingdom of León. Period. In medieval Spain there are 4 and only 4 christian kingdoms: León, Castile, Aragón and Navarre. Period. Galicia was never a proper kingdom , she was part of the Kingdom of León, the title "kingdom" was but honorary.The reason for this "mistake" here is Galician nationalist movements. We all know any nationalism needs a history (be it real or not), so there are some people very active in the net (particularly here in Wikipedia) that have set out to re-write history to their convenience. And everyone who knows a bit of Spanish political reality knows how radical and fanatical this nationalist movements are, which is all all right for idealist people defending their nations to be, but history is history and wikipedia users shouldn't be victims of this political fanatism. Cornelius71 ( talk) 15:42, 2 April 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cornelius71 ( talk • contribs) 15:38, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the "kingdoms" myself. Were the "kingdoms" like Toldeo and Granada mere provinces of a larger state called the Crown of Castile, or were they more akin to the Crown of Aragon: several independent kingdoms in personal union (in that case Aragon, Valencia, and Catalonia)? Emperor001 ( talk) 15:54, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
I know from past reading that the figure of over 8.2 million in 1595 is incorrect, and applies to all of Spain, including Aragon, not just of Castile. From memory the actual figure for Castile was about 6 million but I don't have a reliable source.
The Crown of Castile was abolished in 1715. The Crown of Aragon was already abolished in 1707. The Council of Castile, not the crown, was abolished much later. This is what the sources say. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 17:20, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
This seems to be part of a campaign across multiple wikipedias, to introduce information that is not supported by sources. The information in English wikipedia was first added by Santos30 [1]. Santos30 was blocked in Spanish wikipedia because he was socking to generate false support for his ideas. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 17:38, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
discussion in Spanish wikipedia about Santos30 inserting unsourced information and propagating it to the English wikipedia. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 17:42, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Also, the Indies were not proper part of the Crown until after the death of Ferdinand the Catholic, when it was all unified as Spain. This means that this map is not an accurate portrait of the Crown of Castile. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 19:46, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
-- Santos30 ( talk) 23:44, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
This is not the History of liberalism of course all the kingdoms are personal property of the kings. Juan Carlos I of Spain is constitutional monarch (not Absolute monarchy) the current bearer of the Spanish Crown is not a personal property.
-- Santos30 ( talk) 02:31, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
I have to say that Santos30, who is obviously Castilian himself, is insensitive in, first confusing the Kingdom Spain during the 18th century with the Crown of Castile. Secondly, the country is referred to as Spain by both contemporaries and historians during the 18th century and indeed from the 16th century onwards, as all the territories in modern-day Spain were ruled by the same monarch, the King of Spain. Castile and Aragon united dynastically into Spain with the Catholic Monarchs or Charles I. Maps refer to the united country as Spain in the 18th century, albeit in Latin. So you are completely wrong, Santos30, and probably deluded. Thirdly, your aggressive Castilian national sentiment borders on imperialism as you tell the English-speaking world that, yes there was the Crown of CAstile and the Crown of Aragon, but Castile 'annexed' Aragon, Valencia and Catalonia. That Catalonia was just a region of Castile during the 18th century is very insulting and demeaning to the Catalan people. Yes, the Crown of Aragon was abolished by the government in Madrid, which was indeed the Capital of Castile. But the two joined together politically as the Kingdom of Spain. At least the Spanish authorities of the time, 1715 that is, had more respect towards the peoples of Spain than you in calling the unified country by an all-inclusive name 'Spain' from the Roman name of the Iberian peninsula, than just call the country after the dominant region or former country. You were blocked from Spanish Wikipedia, I just hope you are blocked from the English one, before you go around upsetting people!! And for you info, I am not Catalan, I am half Castilian myself, but I respect the other peoples of Spain. Just accept that you are ignorant and biased. 109.154.249.15 ( talk) 18:21, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
You two are broking every single rule of wikipedia on this edit war. I suggest you settle your differences here before both of you ended up being blocked from editing. I'll revert the page to the stat before this mess started. Jack Bufalo Head ( talk) 21:39, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
-- Santos30 ( talk) 13:09, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
-- Santos30 ( talk) 04:49, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
-- Santos30 ( talk) 10:29, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Did the the Crown of Castile end in...
The discussion and sources are above. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 11:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
2.51.180.28 ( talk) 04:51, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
-- Santos30 ( talk) 10:17, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
I translate a comment from the Spanish wikipedia:
I have seen on occasions how he "inserted" a well-disguised lie at the English Wikipedia and the users who attempted to reverse (in my experience, users from the Spanish Wikipedia) chrashed again and again into a wall and finally the usual troll got away with his intentions. Long ago I lost great part of my interest to discuss there.
Mind you, the question that you offer is tricky. I do not think there is any source that specifies when the Crown of Castile disappeared. In Wikipedia we put for both Castile and Aragon the dates of the implementation of the decrees of New Plant. In Aragon that can be more clear by the fact that most of its institutions disappear, but I doubt there's a book that says exactly the year you can give as "disappeared" the Crown of Aragon. In Castile it may not be so clear, but the situation is similar. In this case, its institutions are not "eliminated", but it is true that extend its authority over all the monarchy (except for some particular case). Technically wh could say that the institutions of Castile cease to exist from the moment that extend all other territories and are no longer "its own". Considering that the Aragonese Crown no longer exists because it no longer have its "its own" institutions, we can make a comparison with the Castilian case and and say that the Crown of Castile ceases to exist for the same reason: it stops having "its own" institutions and is governed by the same (almost) as all the Monarchy (although, technically, one and the other are the same).
Of course, the problem you've found you, can forward it to Santos30. What references can he provide that explicitly say that the Crown of Castile disappeared in 1812? And I say "explicit" because it is very likely that, accustomed as he is to the misrepresentation of sources, try casting as proof something like the disappearance of the Council of Castile or some text of the very Constitution. The latter is easy to refute, it is a primary source and also it nowhere abolished the Crown of Castile. As for the Council, as just discussed, despite its name, it was not typical of Castile, but of Spain. Moreover, this institution disappeared in 1809, to re-created in 1810, to return to disappear in 1812, re-establishing itself in 1814, to disappear again in 1820, only to reappear in 1823 and finally abolished in 1834. So which of these dates is intended Santos30 establish the demise of the Crown of Castile? Why 1812? Why not any other? Of course the argument of joining the existence of the Crown to the Council is absurd.
Another argument to consider would be the existence of other council besides that "of Castile". And, like this one, all extended their jurisdiction over (almost) all the Monarchy after the end of the War of Succession. All of Castile, War, Treasury, etc. had authority over Spain, not only over one of the Crowns. As in the case of the Council of Castile, the other disappeared and appeared intermittently at the beginning of century XIX until its final abolition in 1834. This date marked the end point of the old (and decadent) council system, the disappearance of the remnants of the old regime. But this process in any way can be equated with the demise of the Crowns, as these had long ago been "rolled over" with the introduction of a genuine single monarchy.
All it could be said is that the Crown of Castile survived just as territorial division, but nothing more. When in 1833 it was established the current division into provinces, it was talked, among many others, of the kingdom of Aragon, Jaen or Leon, but that does not mean these kingdoms continued to exist as entities themselves, but as mere territorial divisions inherited from the old kingdoms. The same happened with the Crown of Castile (and with the Crown of Aragon). So, for example, when Charles III named a Decree of 1783 corregidores "in the Crown of Castile" and "in the Crown of Aragon", it is not stating that both the one and the other survive as separate crowns.
Following Santos30's distorted vision, if the Crown of Castile survived until the s. XIX, the Crown of Aragon did so, since, simply, they just changed the laws that governed them. It is obviously absurd. [13] Durero, 23 Nov 2012.
-- Enric Naval ( talk) 21:49, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
-- Santos30 ( talk) 22:14, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
I made a topic ban proposal, but it's getting very little input from the community. Apparently, people are not commenting because they are not familiar with the topic. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 12:02, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
I translate a comment from the Spanish wikipedia, with comments on why Santos30 is interpreting sources incorrectly [14]:
So, from Philip V to the reform of Mon (1845), there existed in Spain three different tax systems:
Crown of Aragon (Aragon, Catalonia, Mallorca and VALENCIA [sic]).
Crown of Castile.
Provinces exempt (Vascongadas and Navarra).— Berné Valero, José Luis; Femenia Ribera, Carmen; Aznar Bellver, Jerónimo (2004). Catastro y valoración catastral. Universidad Politécnica de Valencia. Page 41
(...) a war, civil and European [the Spanish War of Succession] arising from dynastic issues would serve as a pretext to achieve the desired legal uniformity in Spain (...) the concept of nationality began to identify itself with that of Spain on the basis of a non contrasted Castilian dominance over all other communities with historic right.
(...) As they expanded into the new territories the Castilian political and administrative institutions, they acquired for the first time a national scope and the Castilian law began to identify with the new "national law" or Spanish [law]". This was it left behind the heterogeneous political morphology of the Spanish monarchy, replacing its traditional political, legal and administrative diversity for an unitary State in all its aspects, except those affecting private Law.
(...) So, the old viceroyalmies of the Crown of Aragon were organized as provinces and general captaincies, the same as happened in the rest of Spain, except Navarra and Vascongadas, who kept their genuine institutions until the nineteenth century.
(...) Thus, the Spanish scene was divided, from the governative perspective, in general captaincies and audiencias, which exercised a kind of collegial governance. These were: Old Castile, Seville, Granada, Extremadura, Galicia, Asturias, Aragon, Catalonia, Valencia, Mallorca and the Canary Islands.— Martinez Ruiz, Enrique (dir.) (2007). Diccionario de historia moderna de España. Volumen II: la Administración. Ed. Akal. Págs. 133-137
Consequence of the abolition of the Aragonese fueros was the disappearance of customs offices to the Castilian crown [...] the Basque-Navarre constituted itself as its own customsspace, open to foreign trade, but clearly differentiated from the Castile-Aragon block.
(...) It was expressly abolished the privilege of Aliens, i.e. the hitherto existing obligation that royal officials were natives of the kingdoms.
(...) Both territorial sets [the crowns of Castile and Aragon] formed a single customs area subject to the payment of the "general revenue". Unlike them, Navarra and the Basque Country were "exempt provinces" of this tax system and enjoyed broad administrative autonomy.— Corona Bratech, Carlos E.; Armillas Vicente, José Antonio (coord.) (1990). Historia general de España y América. Tomo X. Volumen 2. Ed. Rialp. Págs. 14; 114-121
The Courts of the eighteenth century were a kind of General Courts of the Monarchy' in which the procuradores of Castilla 'had joined other representing Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia, 'which had lost their own courts following the Spanish Succession War.
— Pérez Samper, María Angeles (1988), «Yo el Rey. Poder y sociedad entre dos reinados». En Boletín de la Real Academia de la Historia. Tomo CLXXXV. Pág. 583
-- Enric Naval ( talk) 10:29, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
Another source:
La pérdida de los dominios europeos se compensó con la intensificación del poder real, como consecuencia de la Nueva Planta en los reinos de la Corona de Aragón. Pero no se llegó a una formulación jurídica precisa de la nueva unidad política. Podemos comparar este hecho con otro acontecimiento del mismo orden de la época: el Acta de Unión de 1707, por el cual los Parlamentos de Inglaterra y Escocia proclamaban la fusión de ambos reinos en una unidad superior que se llamaría precisamente el Reino Unido de la Gran Bretaña. Fácilmente se observan las diferencias con la versión española. No sólo porque en nuestro caso no hubo un Parlamento que autorizase la mayor imbricación de los reinos, sino porque no se produjo la proclamación formal de la nueva unidad. Los decretos de Nueva Planta indicaron que los nuevos reinos deberían gobernarse como los de la Corona de Castilla, 'sin la menor diferencia en nada' (decreto de abolición de los fueros de Aragón y Valencia, 1707) o señalaron la forma en que debían regirse en adelante (Nueva Planta de Cataluña y Mallorca), pero no declararon la unión de ambas Coronas en una entidad superior. El proceso de unificación quedó falto de una proclamación formal y jurídica, aunque a nadie escapaba la realidad de una unificación basada en Ejército, la burocracia y el conjunto del aparato del Estado. Pero los monarcas conservaron hasta el siglo XIX su compleja titulación que enumeraba un conjunto de reinos reducidos en la práctica a entidades administrativas, y a veces ni siquiera esto. Luis Suárez Fernández (1984). Historia general de España y América: Hasta el final del reinado de Carlos IV. La España de las reformas. Ediciones Rialp. p. 87. ISBN 978-84-321-2106-7. Retrieved 31 December 2012.
Another message from eswiki [16]:
Charles Arnold-Baker (2001), The Companion to British History (2, revised, illustrated, reprint ed.), Routledge, pp. 1161, ISBN 9780415185837, "Louis XIV accepted [in 1700] on behald of his grandson, who succeeded as Philip V on condition that the Crowns of France and Spain should never be united. (...) This provoked the great War of the Spanish Succession. (...) Barcelona fell in 1714 and the Aragonese privileges were abolished. Spain had become one country."
Vicent de Melchor, Albert Branchadell, Vicent de Melchor (2002), El catalán: Una lengua de Europa para compartir, Univ. Autònoma de Barcelona, pp. 106-107, ISBN 9788449022999, "Mas que con los Reyes Católicos (a finales del siglo XV), como todavia suele repetirse, es a partir de Felipe V (a principios del sigo XVIII) cuando podemos comenzar a considerar España como un Estado auténticamente unificado o, mejor, unitario: es a partir de entonces cuando podemos empezar a hablar con propiedad de un rey de España o de una Corona de España y, consecuentemente de un Reino de España."
-- Enric Naval ( talk) 17:03, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
-- Santos30 ( talk) 12:53, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
I recover references deleted and wait for citation needed and put template POV for 1715 in infobox.-- Santos30 ( talk) 23:11, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
Did the Crown of Castile end in 1715 or 1716? The last of the Nueva Planta decrees abolished the County of Barcelona in 1716, merging it with the Crown of Castile. 86.97.146.6 ( talk) 06:20, 10 January 2013 (UTC) Payne says "approximately 1715".
Spain as a single united polity dates from approximately 1715, and the model for its eighteenth-century royalist regime was the governing system of the Bourbon dynasty of France. The separate fueros of Aragón and Valencia were abolished in 1707 and the administrative system of Castile extended over those territories. This brought abolition of the socially progressive changes in legal jurisdiction over peasant lands that had been decreed by the Habsburg pretender. Catalonia was also incorporated into the central system under terms of the Nueva Planta decree of 1716.
— A History of Spain and Portugal, Vol. 2, Stanley G. Payne, Chapter 16: The Eighteenth-Century Bourbon Regime in Spain
The fueros of Aragon and Valencia were already taken away with the 1707 Nueva Planta Decree, but Felipe V couldn't impose them until he squashed the rebellions.
Legally, the War of Spanish Succession ended with the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht, but Majorca and Ibiza were not taken until 1715. In the last section of the Spanish-language version you can see more battles that are considered part of the war, even if it was already finished.
The trick is this: the Catalonia decree was written in 9 October 1715, but it wasn't issued until 16 January 1716. By that time Majorca had been taken, and the last resistance in Catalonia had been defeated in Siege of Barcelona (1713–1714). Obviously, many historians think that the date of 1715, or "approximately 1715", is more accurate. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 15:14, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for the explanation. I understand now. 86.97.146.6 ( talk) 05:58, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
If you have reliable sources that support the date of 1714, then present them here. Note that the County of Barcelona was merged into the Crown of Aragon centuries before 1714. It became part of the Crown, and was called "Catalonia" or "Principado". Note that "Catalonia inside the Crown of Aragon" is not the same as "the County of Barcelona". Paybe only talks about Catalonia. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 18:08, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
I notice that after 1521, the year the
Revolt of the Comuneros ended, very little is mentioned about the history of the Crown. This is especially bad since many things happened during this period (wars in Europe especially). Can someone add this much needed information? I would be glad to help.
Thanks
86.97.146.6 (
talk)
06:04, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Were cities such as Oran, Algiers, Bougie, Biserta, and Tunis controlled by the Crown of Castile or the Crown of Aragon? 86.97.146.6 ( talk) 06:09, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
El reino de Castilla paso a llamarse reyno de España por causas politicas, para evitar discusiones tontas entr los "Nobles y los dtractores. de esa manera salio el reyno de España, ahúnque ya existia esa unidad con los Godos, es de logica, si un reino ocupa el 80 por ciento del territorio y el 90% de lo conquistado en el resto del mundo bajo su bandera, ¿como podria llamarse Castilla? ¡no! la llamaron España. ¡Haaa! otra cosa si Isabel de Castilla no se hubiera casado con Fernando de Aragon, el Reyno de Aragon hubiera desaparecido 'Un saludo y gracias! -- 79.159.215.184 ( talk) 21:44, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
The article needs to make up its mind if it wants to be about a state (as in Spain) or about a title (institution, as in Monarchy of Spain).
Castile and Léon existed as a state between 1230 and 1516. After 1516, the title continued to exist, of course, but the state and territory just became (the core) part of Habsburg Spain. The title of king of Castile is still claimed by the current King of Spain, so it is meaningless to claim that the "Crown of Castile" was "disestablished in 1715". Either it was disestablished in 1506/16, ceasing to exist as a separate entity, or it was never disestablished, as it survives as a purely nominal title. -- dab (𒁳) 16:14, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
The gif image which shows the evolution of the territorial expansion of the Crown contains a good deal of severe inaccuracies. To name just one, The Kingdom of Leon (including Galicia, which was part of it, not a separate entity like the gif implies) was not "annexed" to the "already existing (1217 (!!))" "Crown" of Castile: The "Kingdom" of Castile fused with the Kingdom of Leon in 1230 for being under the same sovereign (it was not annexed), and this formed the "Crown" of Castile in 1230. This gif implies that the "Crown" of Castile existed already in 1217 (false, it was still a Kingdom) and annexed Leon and an independent (false) Galicia, which is a very important mistake. The Spanish version of this gif which served as template for this version was corrected a year ago and so this one should be corrected too. The other mistakes have been fixed there too. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mapa_de_la_Corona_de_Castilla.gif I have contacted the author who fixed the Spanish version to see if he could do the same with this one, as I don't know how to do it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.54.84.68 ( talk) 23:58, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
I have removed denominations in the infobox in galician, leonese, basque. I think it is unnecessary editorializing that clutters the infobox and I sticked to latin and spanish (latin and the romance vernacular (old spanish) were the languages of the royal chancellery in the Middle Ages. They are featured as note in the lead anyways. I am aware even this can be a dubious construct, as the romance vernacular and middle spanish were different from modern spanish and the Castiella denomination was probably also a common term in sources back then in the romance vernacular (old castilian). Supposing you need to include every language spoken there in the infobox brings bad editorializing (think Ottoman empire or Austrian Empire).-- Asqueladd ( talk) 11:03, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Hi Asqueladd, I definitely agree that my edit does not belong under the statement "The two kingdoms had been united twice previously:", so I have changed its location in the section. This article is not about the unification of Leon and Castile, it is about the Crown of Castile, with the invasion of Navarre and subsequent annexation of Gipuzkoa, Álava and Durango are major events for that crown. I do have some grasp of the topic, and this event, as well as the forced incorporation of these territories and the different status held by these districts in the Crown of Castile are conspicuously missing.
Also, I am not sure what your objection is to the dates. Iñaki LL ( talk) 21:40, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
the two articles are really similar and both should merge. The french guru ( talk) 03:08, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
Any explanation of why these were added? Perhaps we could find actual working links to add? Because right now this arguably does not look very aesthetically pleasing Aliy Dawut ( talk) 00:42, 27 June 2024 (UTC)