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I see a lot of users removing sourced information about Crosses playing witch house music and starting edit wars, but what I don't see are any reasons for why this should be removed. Anyone care to elaborate? Fezmar9 ( talk) 20:29, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
A genre is not defined by critics, it is defined by the techniques (within the music) that qualify it as being part of the genre. I've brought this question to a music professor at S.U., he brought up the fact that many music journalists have little knowledge of the defining characteristics of the music that they criticize. Pitchfork has had numerous problems with this, Google their credibility issues. Drag (a.k.a. witch house) is defined by the dragged beat scheme (and vocal samples) inherent within the music, it has been since it was used as a technique in some screwed and chopped hip-hop in 2005. It was embraced by post-shoegaze/industrial musicians in 2006. The beat is the only aspect which defines music as drag (witch house). If you need help understanding it, I can put you in touch with the musician known as Nattymari (of Kreayshawn mixtape fame) his real name is Daffyd McKahary, he's a former writer/music reviewer for New Times (L.A.) and a blogger for Mishka, he is considered the foremost historian of drag music within the Witch House/Drag scene. Baku Shad-do ( talk) 13:12, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Can sources be provided that state that are or are not? The answer is yes. There are three sources, considered to be reliable, that state they are witch house. What you are saying may be perfectly true (like I said, I know nothing of the genre), but can you provide reliable sources that state specifically that Crosses are not witch house? Providing sources stating what witch house is doesn't help with your arguement unless they are talking specifically about Crosses, detailing why they are not witch house. Stating they do not fit the genre, wrongfully labelled as witch house without a reliable source to back it up won't help you because of Wikipedia policies and guidelines (which must be adhered to). You mentioned in the ANI an "entire forum where all the artists from the genre converse." However, forums are not considered reliable sources per WP:USERG. Giving contact information doesn't help either, anyone who reads a Wikipedia article must be able to check the sources themselves. Are you wanting to including someone's contact information in the article?"Verifiability, and not truth, is one of the fundamental requirements for inclusion in Wikipedia; truth, of itself, is not a substitute for meeting the verifiability requirement [...] No matter how convinced you are that something is true, do not add it to an article unless it is verifiable."
Ok, so I think this whole witch house debate has dragged on for too long now. I've done a lot more research since last commenting here, and this is what I've come up with:
The musical style of Crosses is often referred to as <do more research and insert genres here> or witch house. [1] [2] [3] However, Carson O'Shoney of Consequence of Sound and Daniel Brockman of The Boston Phoenix note that Crosses only shares a resemblance to witch house in aesthetics and imagery, and not the group's actual music. [4] [5] O'Shoney said Crosses' witch house influence is, "noticeable just by looking at the tracklist—every song has at least one † in it. The name of the band is †††. The name of the EP is †. Everything about the EP points to witch house—until you listen to the actual music." [4] The group's decision to use this imagery stems from Chino Moreno's interest in the art and mystique around religion. Moreno however also said, "I didn't want people to think we are a religious band, a satanic band or that we are a witch-house band. It's difficult using a religious symbol, but at the same time, I think in an artistic way, it can totally go somewhere else and I think we are kind of walking that line." [3]
I think it accurately states that there are those who consider Deftones a witch house band, while there are those who disagree, while also including the band's comment on the whole thing. It could either be tacked on to the lead or the start of a new section entirely. Thoughts? Fezmar9 ( talk) 22:59, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Done. I've added the paragraph to the article.
Fezmar9 (
talk)
06:03, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Would anyone disagree with the removal of ambient rock from the infobox? As far as I am aware, there is no source for it. HrZ ( talk) 12:29, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
References
According to MOS:TM:
Avoid using special characters that are not pronounced, are included purely for decoration, or simply substitute for English words (e.g., ♥ used for "love"). In the article about a trademark, it is acceptable to use decorative characters the first time the trademark appears, but thereafter, an alternative that follows the standard rules of punctuation should be used:
- avoid: Macy*s, skate., [ yellow tail ], Se7en, Alien3, Toys Я Us
- instead, use: Macy's, Skate, Yellow Tail, Seven, Alien 3, Toys "R" Us
So, ††† can be used in the lead, but because the symbols aren't actually pronounced and are purely used for decoration (unlike !!! where the symbols are actually pronounced), the rest of the article including the title must remain as Crosses according to the guideline. There also may be technical issues that arise when using a symbol instead of a character in the article title, per WP:TSC. Fezmar9 ( talk) 20:54, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
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Currently the dagger symbol, † (U+2020), is being used, but it should be the Latin cross, ✝ (U+271D). Boywonder92 ( talk) 22:05, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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I see a lot of users removing sourced information about Crosses playing witch house music and starting edit wars, but what I don't see are any reasons for why this should be removed. Anyone care to elaborate? Fezmar9 ( talk) 20:29, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
A genre is not defined by critics, it is defined by the techniques (within the music) that qualify it as being part of the genre. I've brought this question to a music professor at S.U., he brought up the fact that many music journalists have little knowledge of the defining characteristics of the music that they criticize. Pitchfork has had numerous problems with this, Google their credibility issues. Drag (a.k.a. witch house) is defined by the dragged beat scheme (and vocal samples) inherent within the music, it has been since it was used as a technique in some screwed and chopped hip-hop in 2005. It was embraced by post-shoegaze/industrial musicians in 2006. The beat is the only aspect which defines music as drag (witch house). If you need help understanding it, I can put you in touch with the musician known as Nattymari (of Kreayshawn mixtape fame) his real name is Daffyd McKahary, he's a former writer/music reviewer for New Times (L.A.) and a blogger for Mishka, he is considered the foremost historian of drag music within the Witch House/Drag scene. Baku Shad-do ( talk) 13:12, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Can sources be provided that state that are or are not? The answer is yes. There are three sources, considered to be reliable, that state they are witch house. What you are saying may be perfectly true (like I said, I know nothing of the genre), but can you provide reliable sources that state specifically that Crosses are not witch house? Providing sources stating what witch house is doesn't help with your arguement unless they are talking specifically about Crosses, detailing why they are not witch house. Stating they do not fit the genre, wrongfully labelled as witch house without a reliable source to back it up won't help you because of Wikipedia policies and guidelines (which must be adhered to). You mentioned in the ANI an "entire forum where all the artists from the genre converse." However, forums are not considered reliable sources per WP:USERG. Giving contact information doesn't help either, anyone who reads a Wikipedia article must be able to check the sources themselves. Are you wanting to including someone's contact information in the article?"Verifiability, and not truth, is one of the fundamental requirements for inclusion in Wikipedia; truth, of itself, is not a substitute for meeting the verifiability requirement [...] No matter how convinced you are that something is true, do not add it to an article unless it is verifiable."
Ok, so I think this whole witch house debate has dragged on for too long now. I've done a lot more research since last commenting here, and this is what I've come up with:
The musical style of Crosses is often referred to as <do more research and insert genres here> or witch house. [1] [2] [3] However, Carson O'Shoney of Consequence of Sound and Daniel Brockman of The Boston Phoenix note that Crosses only shares a resemblance to witch house in aesthetics and imagery, and not the group's actual music. [4] [5] O'Shoney said Crosses' witch house influence is, "noticeable just by looking at the tracklist—every song has at least one † in it. The name of the band is †††. The name of the EP is †. Everything about the EP points to witch house—until you listen to the actual music." [4] The group's decision to use this imagery stems from Chino Moreno's interest in the art and mystique around religion. Moreno however also said, "I didn't want people to think we are a religious band, a satanic band or that we are a witch-house band. It's difficult using a religious symbol, but at the same time, I think in an artistic way, it can totally go somewhere else and I think we are kind of walking that line." [3]
I think it accurately states that there are those who consider Deftones a witch house band, while there are those who disagree, while also including the band's comment on the whole thing. It could either be tacked on to the lead or the start of a new section entirely. Thoughts? Fezmar9 ( talk) 22:59, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Done. I've added the paragraph to the article.
Fezmar9 (
talk)
06:03, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Would anyone disagree with the removal of ambient rock from the infobox? As far as I am aware, there is no source for it. HrZ ( talk) 12:29, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
References
According to MOS:TM:
Avoid using special characters that are not pronounced, are included purely for decoration, or simply substitute for English words (e.g., ♥ used for "love"). In the article about a trademark, it is acceptable to use decorative characters the first time the trademark appears, but thereafter, an alternative that follows the standard rules of punctuation should be used:
- avoid: Macy*s, skate., [ yellow tail ], Se7en, Alien3, Toys Я Us
- instead, use: Macy's, Skate, Yellow Tail, Seven, Alien 3, Toys "R" Us
So, ††† can be used in the lead, but because the symbols aren't actually pronounced and are purely used for decoration (unlike !!! where the symbols are actually pronounced), the rest of the article including the title must remain as Crosses according to the guideline. There also may be technical issues that arise when using a symbol instead of a character in the article title, per WP:TSC. Fezmar9 ( talk) 20:54, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Crosses (band). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:33, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
Currently the dagger symbol, † (U+2020), is being used, but it should be the Latin cross, ✝ (U+271D). Boywonder92 ( talk) 22:05, 31 July 2022 (UTC)