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Its a bit odd having an article called "Flag of island of Ireland", when the first line states, "There is no flag universally accepted as representing the entire island of Ireland." Why do we have an article on something that does not exist?
Wouldn't it be better to title this article "Flags of the island of Ireland"? Rockpocke t 16:49, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Traditional unionist: do you honestly believe there is anybody today who regards the Union Flag as representing the island of Ireland? It is an "Irish flag" in the same way as the flag of Ulster, or of a county council, or of Belfast Yacht club are Irish flags, i.e. it is a flag and it is Irish. It is not a "flag of the island of Ireland" in that nobody regards it as representing the island. Since partition (or at least since the Republic left the Commonwealth), nobody has regarded it as such. On the other hand, many people, rightly or wrongly, regard the tricolour as a symbol of the whole island. The "almost identical" legal status vis-a-vis the tricolour is irrelevant: legally speaking, none of the flags should be listed. The article is not about the law, it's about the practice. The article might do with a section on organisations that use [tricolour + union flag] or [tricolour + Ulster banner] or some other combination; but that's another question. jnestorius( talk) 00:39, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Why would a geographic feature like an island (as opposed to a political entity of some description) have a flag? Does Mt. Everest have a flag - If it does, how did Mt. Everest choose it? Now, ask the same question substituting "island of Ireland" for "Mt. Everest". I think this article should be deleted as its pretty silly. Any support? Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 21:57, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Someone has changed the title of this article without having discussed it beforehand. On the subject of the actual title, should there be a capital "a" in "All"? "All Ireland" is not a formal entity with a formal name, so should it not be "Flag of all Ireland"? Of course, "Flag of Ireland" would be the simplest, but we're not allowed that because of the phobia of the Southern-centric editors. Mooretwin ( talk) 10:32, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Re. Makes the [singular] flag sound very contrived or something, in a "two government" kind of way." - Agreed but the whole article is pretty contrived in that there is no single flag for both parts of the island of Ireland....; Re. "These flags are supposed to represent the whole island" - now you are talking about flags plural....Up to now, both article titles have been singular...If you think the article should be about the several flags that different political, sporting or other groups use to represent both parts of the Island, I fully support you...Sounds like a more logical article than an article about a singular flag that does not exist....I would welcome your suggestions to rename the article along the lines you seem to be suggesting...I suppose something like " Flags for the two parts of Ireland" or some such. Re. "whereas this name draws attention to the border." - I am not sure how that can be avoided....The criterion for a flag to be included is that it must be one that is used to represent both parts of the Island.... Re there was no consensus. You are correct. I was being WP:BOLD. I am not saying my choice is the last word by any means. Re "Cross border Ireland" seems a lot less common than "All Ireland", you are entirely correct but the term "All Ireland" sounds Irish nationalist. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 22:07, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree with the criticisms of both the 'All Ireland' and 'Cross border' names. I think the very first suggestions made on this page were probably the best: "Flags of the island of Ireland" or "Flags representing the island of Ireland". I think "flag" needs to be 'flags'--plural. If there's concern of confusion with "List of Irish flags," perhaps a hatnote here to the ROI and NI lists of flags pages. Nuclare ( talk) 13:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
We could go round and round in circles...Whatever is decided. I agree it should be (i) plural and (ii) representing. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 17:11, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
The whole naming is daft. The current Flag of Ireland article should me moved to Irish Tricolour and moving what is currently at the PoV fork of Cross-border flag for Ireland to a much more logical disambiguation location at Flag of Ireland. Flag of the Republic of Ireland would point to Irish Tricolour. This is also entirely in line with the Wikipedia style on Flag of Northern Ireland and Ulster Banner articles. 164.129.1.42 ( talk) 20:31, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Without prejudice to my dislike of the the title of this article, I wish to point out that - now that the introductory sentence has been changed to lower case "a", by the same logic, so should the name of the article. Mooretwin ( talk) 11:43, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
I contacted the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard to ask about the use of this reference here and was it acceptable to be used as a reliable source. The advice I got was that it should not be considered a reliable source however this did not mean that the information is wrong... only that we need a different source for it. Therefore I have removed it from the article and placed a citation tag in it's place. -- Domer48 'fenian' 15:27, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Although I was the one who suggested the current title, I think on reflection it is a poor choice. For one thing, it has a peace-process vibe, as though there is an ongoing debate seeking to find a single "cross-border flag". A title beginning "List of..." would avoid this false presentation. More fundamentally, I believe the article ought to be about all flags that have been used now or in the past to represent the island of Ireland. "Cross-border flag" limits its scope to the post-1921 period, preventing discussion of the various harp flags and the union jack. jnestorius( talk) 10:24, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
This also means the "Erne flag" section is problematic, as it is a "cross-border flag" in a different sense: it is used when crossing the border. If I understand the section correctly (and the cited references are not helpful) the Erne flag is not intended to represent Ireland, but rather to dodge the question of representing the Republic or Britain. The section needs elaboration in any case if it is to stay in the article. The external sources are not incompatible with the scenario that the Erne flag is simply a club flag of the IWAI.
Is there a legal requirement to fly a national flag when on inland waterways?
jnestorius( talk) 10:24, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Probably should be some mention of the fact that the red saltire seems to have been created from scratch (as far as being a symbol of St. Patrick goes) in 1783 for the establishment of the British royal Order of St. Patrick, and some might have doubts as to its historical authenticity or appropriate symbolism for such reasons... AnonMoos ( talk) 14:37, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
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Its a bit odd having an article called "Flag of island of Ireland", when the first line states, "There is no flag universally accepted as representing the entire island of Ireland." Why do we have an article on something that does not exist?
Wouldn't it be better to title this article "Flags of the island of Ireland"? Rockpocke t 16:49, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Traditional unionist: do you honestly believe there is anybody today who regards the Union Flag as representing the island of Ireland? It is an "Irish flag" in the same way as the flag of Ulster, or of a county council, or of Belfast Yacht club are Irish flags, i.e. it is a flag and it is Irish. It is not a "flag of the island of Ireland" in that nobody regards it as representing the island. Since partition (or at least since the Republic left the Commonwealth), nobody has regarded it as such. On the other hand, many people, rightly or wrongly, regard the tricolour as a symbol of the whole island. The "almost identical" legal status vis-a-vis the tricolour is irrelevant: legally speaking, none of the flags should be listed. The article is not about the law, it's about the practice. The article might do with a section on organisations that use [tricolour + union flag] or [tricolour + Ulster banner] or some other combination; but that's another question. jnestorius( talk) 00:39, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Why would a geographic feature like an island (as opposed to a political entity of some description) have a flag? Does Mt. Everest have a flag - If it does, how did Mt. Everest choose it? Now, ask the same question substituting "island of Ireland" for "Mt. Everest". I think this article should be deleted as its pretty silly. Any support? Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 21:57, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Someone has changed the title of this article without having discussed it beforehand. On the subject of the actual title, should there be a capital "a" in "All"? "All Ireland" is not a formal entity with a formal name, so should it not be "Flag of all Ireland"? Of course, "Flag of Ireland" would be the simplest, but we're not allowed that because of the phobia of the Southern-centric editors. Mooretwin ( talk) 10:32, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Re. Makes the [singular] flag sound very contrived or something, in a "two government" kind of way." - Agreed but the whole article is pretty contrived in that there is no single flag for both parts of the island of Ireland....; Re. "These flags are supposed to represent the whole island" - now you are talking about flags plural....Up to now, both article titles have been singular...If you think the article should be about the several flags that different political, sporting or other groups use to represent both parts of the Island, I fully support you...Sounds like a more logical article than an article about a singular flag that does not exist....I would welcome your suggestions to rename the article along the lines you seem to be suggesting...I suppose something like " Flags for the two parts of Ireland" or some such. Re. "whereas this name draws attention to the border." - I am not sure how that can be avoided....The criterion for a flag to be included is that it must be one that is used to represent both parts of the Island.... Re there was no consensus. You are correct. I was being WP:BOLD. I am not saying my choice is the last word by any means. Re "Cross border Ireland" seems a lot less common than "All Ireland", you are entirely correct but the term "All Ireland" sounds Irish nationalist. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 22:07, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree with the criticisms of both the 'All Ireland' and 'Cross border' names. I think the very first suggestions made on this page were probably the best: "Flags of the island of Ireland" or "Flags representing the island of Ireland". I think "flag" needs to be 'flags'--plural. If there's concern of confusion with "List of Irish flags," perhaps a hatnote here to the ROI and NI lists of flags pages. Nuclare ( talk) 13:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
We could go round and round in circles...Whatever is decided. I agree it should be (i) plural and (ii) representing. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 17:11, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
The whole naming is daft. The current Flag of Ireland article should me moved to Irish Tricolour and moving what is currently at the PoV fork of Cross-border flag for Ireland to a much more logical disambiguation location at Flag of Ireland. Flag of the Republic of Ireland would point to Irish Tricolour. This is also entirely in line with the Wikipedia style on Flag of Northern Ireland and Ulster Banner articles. 164.129.1.42 ( talk) 20:31, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Without prejudice to my dislike of the the title of this article, I wish to point out that - now that the introductory sentence has been changed to lower case "a", by the same logic, so should the name of the article. Mooretwin ( talk) 11:43, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
I contacted the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard to ask about the use of this reference here and was it acceptable to be used as a reliable source. The advice I got was that it should not be considered a reliable source however this did not mean that the information is wrong... only that we need a different source for it. Therefore I have removed it from the article and placed a citation tag in it's place. -- Domer48 'fenian' 15:27, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Although I was the one who suggested the current title, I think on reflection it is a poor choice. For one thing, it has a peace-process vibe, as though there is an ongoing debate seeking to find a single "cross-border flag". A title beginning "List of..." would avoid this false presentation. More fundamentally, I believe the article ought to be about all flags that have been used now or in the past to represent the island of Ireland. "Cross-border flag" limits its scope to the post-1921 period, preventing discussion of the various harp flags and the union jack. jnestorius( talk) 10:24, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
This also means the "Erne flag" section is problematic, as it is a "cross-border flag" in a different sense: it is used when crossing the border. If I understand the section correctly (and the cited references are not helpful) the Erne flag is not intended to represent Ireland, but rather to dodge the question of representing the Republic or Britain. The section needs elaboration in any case if it is to stay in the article. The external sources are not incompatible with the scenario that the Erne flag is simply a club flag of the IWAI.
Is there a legal requirement to fly a national flag when on inland waterways?
jnestorius( talk) 10:24, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Probably should be some mention of the fact that the red saltire seems to have been created from scratch (as far as being a symbol of St. Patrick goes) in 1783 for the establishment of the British royal Order of St. Patrick, and some might have doubts as to its historical authenticity or appropriate symbolism for such reasons... AnonMoos ( talk) 14:37, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
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