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Is my English giving away again, or shouldn't that be "the presumably discovery of the original cross"? Also, maybe some of the text should be moved or copied to Jesus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Magnus Manske ( talk • contribs) 08:04, 3 December 2001 (UTC)
'The Christian symbol for God and, especially, Jesus.' Not to engage in theological quibbles, but this just isn't thought through. I'll substitute 'The Christian cross identifies a Christian, or a Christian object or location and is a reminder of the redeeming sacrifice of the Crucifixion.' and hope not to raise too much dust. Wetman
The first was more accurate if one is concerned with objective fact rather than faith. Since this is an encyclopedia I would assume that to be the case.
Why isn't the Celtic Cross included in emblems and symbols???
There was a section that claimed that all modern crosses are either swastikas or christian I removed it. It seems a massive generalisation. Perhaps it was intended to say that christianity is the only modern religous denomination to use the cross a symbol (but I'm not sure this is the case). I also mentioned the spontaneous production of crosses by young children.
Dear 196.2.124.250 , there might be some pages on Wikipedia where the presence of your generalized abstract metaphysical pontifications on the essentially pagan nature of Christianity would be appropriate, but they're quite irrelevant on this page. Furthermore, the page you linked to ( http://www.masada.org.za/English/the_cross1.htm) uses a completely bogus and quite incorrect form of the name of Jesus -- which never existed in Hebrew -- so that this does not predispose one to place great trust in what it says about crosses. See page http://symbolictruth.fateback.com/yeshua-yasu-isa.htm (particularly the second large image near the bottom) for correct information on the name of Jesus in Hebrew. AnonMoos 15:40, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
This article definitely needs a lot more work -- maybe the first step is deciding what it should be (because currently it's a heterogeneous jumbled grab-bag). AnonMoos 06:33, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for taking care of a lot of the formatting stuff (and no, I don't have the slightest clue either as to what the difference between "crosses as emblems" and "crosses as symbols" may be). But there were a few problems with the heraldic terminology ("ordinary" is a noun in heraldry, not an adjective), and the "see also" list at the end of the Heraldry section is a list of other cross types which are mainly used in heraldry (not the same as the general "see also" list). AnonMoos 23:02, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
P.S. Maybe if the non-mainly-heraldic crosses could be organized in some better way than "symbols" vs. "emblems", then this page could be on the way to being a good article... AnonMoos 23:17, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
I have removed the following entry due to it's amateur sound, lack of references and ambiguous nature: -
What the user appears to be refering to is the rune of protection, also known as Eolh or Algiz, 'the moose rune'. Contrary to the 'peace sign', the emblem is facing three prongs upwards, the inversion of the rune implies the opposite effect, which in this case would be a warning of danger, hazard or risk. The 'cross' the user is refering to appears as follows: -
\ | / \|/ | |
Thus, whilst it could be argued to be a cross, I feel that unless it is address properly it should not be incorporated in this article (also an image would be handy). I would go as far as saying that comparing anything with a cross-section of some nature to a 'cross' is getting a little out of hand anyway. :P Jachin 20:01, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Dear "Brookie", I'm sure that Image:BozeatCross.JPG is highly authentic, but it isn't really so appropriate for this page, since it doesn't display as clearly in 150-pixel-wide thumbnail form (due to consisting of dark gray on light gray, and having a lot of blank wall space surrounding the cross) -- and most importantly, it contains five cross potents, which is not the most normal or proptypical form of the Jerusalem Cross (see http://flagspot.net/flags/crus-kj.html etc.). If there were a separate page devoted just to the Jerusalem or Crusaders' Cross, then BozeatCross.JPG would fit right in, but it doesn't work out so well as part of the summary table in this general amalgamated Cross page AnonMoos 00:08, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
By the way, someone removed the swastika from the "As emblems and symbols" section a little while back. I don't know if I care one way or the other about this, but other people might. AnonMoos 17:04, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
173.86.170.249 ( talk) 03:58, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I've changed the phrase "based on the fact that Saint Peter was martyred by being crucified upside-down" to say "based on a tradition that holds that Saint Peter was martyred by being crucified upside-down." Our main article on Saint Peter describes this as a traditional belief, not as a fact. If there is proof that he was crucified upside-down please present it at the main article. FreplySpang (talk) 02:35, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
the list of crosses contains some links to articles about the specific crosses. Most of these artical need work. I am posting here to bring attention to this fact. One example is the Cross or Lorraine article which contians many pictures of Patriarchal crosses incorrectly reffered to as Lorrain Crosses. Also, the specific articles do not contain links back to this artical, i feel these should be added. ScottW 04:44, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Requested articles page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_articles/Culture_and_fine_arts
is asking for " Ethiopian cross". Anybody? -- Writtenonsand 20:48, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Should the word and a link to crucifix appear somewhere in the article? Seems odd that it does not. NjtoTX 22:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
What else from this section should be removed? The masonry one seems to not really fit, and a couple of the others I'm a bit iffy on. -- Dulcimerist 21:41, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Could someone add this heraldic cross? It's on the old Spanish flag. -- Dulcimerist 06:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Specifically, I can think of the Victory over Islam Cross, which features a cresent moon at the foot of the cross. As well there are triple-bared crosses in which the bottom bar isn't slanted. I know there's more but that's all I can think of at the moment. Kevlar67 01:24, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
There's a bit of a mix-up regarding the Byzantine Cross. What's pictured is the Eastern Cross, used primarily by the Russian Orthodox Church. The Byzantine cross looks different, and is generally used by the Greek Orthodox Church. Here are the examples of these two different crosses:
Example of Byzantine Cross ( http://www.lutheransonline.com/lo/230/FSLO-1134560228-111230.jpg )
Example of Eastern Cross ( http://www.lutheransonline.com/lo/542/FSLO-1134560541-111542.jpg )
Does anyone mind if I correct this in this article, as well as the Byzantine cross page? Thanks! -- Dulcimerist 23:11, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
It was in use since early 9th century. It is used as symbol even today in some legal institutions. Croatian cross should be put on a list.
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CroatianCross.html
In my opinion the current representation of St James Cross does not fit the description appropriately as it does not fit the general depiction of the cross, nor are the cross ends true fleuries, nor is the pointed end a true sword blade. For a more complete discussion of my opinion see Talk:James,_son_of_Zebedee#Images. Please add comments there to keep a single location. Thanks Arnoutf 22:12, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I think there also should be a link to crosshairs somewhere in the article, as many simple ones are actual crosses.-- 66.133.217.107 21:23, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Could you sign me up in your external links: designercrosscollection.com
subject: discovery of the cross
User name: andrea07
Andrea07 22:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
nikki@designercrosscollection.com
Www.memorylanetattooco.com (Cross Tattoos) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Memorylanetattooco ( talk • contribs) 14:58, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Did the person who wrote this think the cross in question might actually be located elsewhere? Like they move it when nobody's looking? Hadda wonder. Zephyrad 21:38, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Is there anyway to type an inverted cross, or the St. Peter's cross with text using the keyboard? Doppelganger ( talk) 12:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm curious as to whether the "Order of Christ Cross" as illustrated is aka the "Jerusalem Cross," or if not, what does the Jerus c. look like? Any leads would be appreciated.
The diff. between an emblem and a symbol, IMO, is this: When I was in the Army, and wore a brass "US" on my collar, that was an emblem of the organization to which I belong. Scouts, athletes, even employees of any number of large business wear EMBLEMS meaning that they belong to a particular group. A SYMBOL, I think, is more abstract. A cross is a SYMBOL of self-sacrifice; the skull-and-crossbones was a SYMBOL of merciless combat in the abstract, though it could also be taken as an EMBLEM of a particular pirate crew. The Presbyterian cross and the Order of Christ Cross in that sense are emblems of that church and that order, as well as symbols of sacrifice. The Greek Orthodox cross with the crooked crosspiece at the bottom is a SYMBOL of mercy, since Jesus is said to have tilted it when he turned toward the 'Good Thief' to reassure him; it would also be an EMBLEM of the Orthodox churches.
And Zeph., I don't think the cross is allegedly in IL--you're right, I think we can see it pretty plain. I think the "allegedly" is meant to refer to it being the tallest one. There might be a taller one in Zamboanga or someplace where they don't have the internet. Even now, someone could be making his way across the Sahara in search of a library with a computer than he/she can log on to in order to edit that page. Kind of makes it worthwhile to get up in the morning, huh? Yes, I stretch things a bit.
Terry J. Carter ( talk) 19:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
This was removed March 13, 2008:
I would like to know why as I feel it is relevant. Was it in the wrong place in the article? Note that the reference remains in the article even though the definition was removed. If it is determined that the definition has no place then the reference ought to be removed as well. Please discuss. Loosestring ( talk) 16:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I added the definition back in and consolodated it with the other definitions since there was no answer to my question. If there is a dispute please discuss. Loosestring ( talk) 14:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
As far as you know? Do you have proof of this? You can't remove it from the article based on something "as far as you know". Loosestring ( talk) 19:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Galatians 3:13, Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake.” Paul was referring to a scripture in Deuteronomy 21:22, 23 “And in case there comes to be in a man a sin deserving the sentence of death, and he has been put to death, and you have hung him upon a stake, 23 his dead body should not stay all night on the stake; but you should by all means bury him on that day, because something accursed of God is the one hung up; and you must not defile your soil, which Jehovah your God is giving you as an inheritance. -- JoshuaMD ( talk) 18:31, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I agree with your statement regarding the book entitled the Two Babylons, but I was menetioning a wide range of historic content & information. As for some the sources being older, it only ephasizing the point it has long known by scholars. It in no cancels the information. The reality is also the list is far from exhaustive. Plus not all others are that old. And even the fact modern encyclopedias are repeating the same information shows much of that information has remained the same, and been information has still very consistent.
The cross was a religious symbol of the Babylonian Tammuz.
Two points here. Firstly, the argument that older knowledge is in some way less trustworthy than newer assumptions is, to put it quite simply, naive. Older accounts are usually found to be the more accurate, simply because time passing allows for re-interpretation and the vagaries of handed-down information. Secondly, this page is really not the place to decide this. We have already a page ( Dispute_about_Jesus'_execution_method) That discusses this. The most appropriate thing to do would be to indicate in the text that there is a dispute, and add a link to this page, or otherwise, remove the information entirely to the page on the Christian Cross, which already has a link to the previously mentioned page. 99.152.197.82 ( talk) 05:17, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
The scope of this article is far too broad to be useful. I think it would be better to have a "List of Christian Crosses" article dedicated to the various forms and history of that set of symbols, rather than lumping everything together is one unfocused list. When people are looking for information on the Greek Cross, for example, they are redirected here, to a list which includes a skull-and-crossbones, among other things. The various forms of the Christian cross are significant in terms of the history of Christianity and the factionalism within it. I think it warrants its own separate article. 71.179.155.179 ( talk) 06:49, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
This should be added but I don't know how...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakana
178.103.22.206 ( talk) 04:22, 27 January 2011 (UTC) Ben
Bloodkith ( talk) 00:15, 16 May 2011 (UTC) ps. ive seen pics of a salem cross with little crosslets on it's end. chic claimed it was a sign of baphomet but his info is biased. is this just a variant of the same cross or is it different.
ive noticed the cross with the rising flame on its side is not here. Methodist. is just considered the roman cross? Bloodkith ( talk) 07:21, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
i was looking at online pics and saw a cross shape (plus sign) center made from four touching budhist type swastikas if i drew it up myself would it be usable or is the design itself subject to some sort of trademark/ copyright etc? Bloodkith ( talk) 07:29, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
It seems to me that there is plenty of content here to support spinning off the heraldry-related content to a new article (perhaps cross (heraldry) or crosses in heraldry - both of which currently redirect back the heraldry section here), with a summary paragraph left behind here and a link to the new article. It looks like the heraldry content here accounts for about 1/3 of the current article's content, and much more could be written about crosses in an heraldic context.
The current table of cross images with brief descriptions really does not do justice to the importance of crosses and their various forms to the field of heraldry. Indeed, the widespread European use of heraldry and the variety and colours of crosses painted on the shields and surcoats of Crusaders went hand in hand, but the current article doesn't even mention that, nor does it have room for it. Within a separate article, we can give due weight to the role of the cross in the development of heraldry, as well as the influence of heraldic applications on the development of various cross forms.
So my question is not only whether we should split the content to a new article, but also which title we should use for the new heraldry-focused article. Wilhelm Meis ( ☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 15:32, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Canadian heraldry is modern and is thus not a reliable or useful source for providing examples of heraldic usage. Better to use examples from heraldry of prominent families in England during the golden age of heraldry, i.e. at about the time of the founding of the Order of the Garter, 1348. (or of other European countries in similar period).( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 20:03, 22 September 2014 (UTC))
The Christian cross and Christian symbols articles have a hard time figuring this out, apparently because they were dominated by religious Christian editors who, while certainly editing in (ahem) good faith, were limited to scanning English translations of Tertullian etc. (thus reporting that Tertullian distinguished between the words "cross" and "stake", and similar).
Reviewing the evidence, it appears to turn out that yes, the "cross" (crux) was used as a Christian sign as early as the 2nd century, and 3rd-century Christian authors were busy denying the accusations that they were "worshipping the cross" (only makes sense if you realise that the word crux means "gibbet" and not "the cross shape"). But the sign of the cross in the ancient period clearly was a T-shape. It is not clear when the first "Greek cross" ✚ or "Latin cross" ✝ were first used as Christian symbols. I was able to pinpoint the earliest occurrence of the cruciform halo in an early 6th century mosaic at Ravenna. I wonder if the crucificorm halo predates the isolated use of the Greek cross. I also wonder if the emergence of the Greek cross symbol is in any way derived from the letter Chi used as abbreviation for Christos. These developments would have taken place around the 4th to 6th centuries, but apparently we completely lack coverage on them ( Greek cross and Latin cross do not even exist as articles). -- dab (𒁳) 11:02, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
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Is my English giving away again, or shouldn't that be "the presumably discovery of the original cross"? Also, maybe some of the text should be moved or copied to Jesus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Magnus Manske ( talk • contribs) 08:04, 3 December 2001 (UTC)
'The Christian symbol for God and, especially, Jesus.' Not to engage in theological quibbles, but this just isn't thought through. I'll substitute 'The Christian cross identifies a Christian, or a Christian object or location and is a reminder of the redeeming sacrifice of the Crucifixion.' and hope not to raise too much dust. Wetman
The first was more accurate if one is concerned with objective fact rather than faith. Since this is an encyclopedia I would assume that to be the case.
Why isn't the Celtic Cross included in emblems and symbols???
There was a section that claimed that all modern crosses are either swastikas or christian I removed it. It seems a massive generalisation. Perhaps it was intended to say that christianity is the only modern religous denomination to use the cross a symbol (but I'm not sure this is the case). I also mentioned the spontaneous production of crosses by young children.
Dear 196.2.124.250 , there might be some pages on Wikipedia where the presence of your generalized abstract metaphysical pontifications on the essentially pagan nature of Christianity would be appropriate, but they're quite irrelevant on this page. Furthermore, the page you linked to ( http://www.masada.org.za/English/the_cross1.htm) uses a completely bogus and quite incorrect form of the name of Jesus -- which never existed in Hebrew -- so that this does not predispose one to place great trust in what it says about crosses. See page http://symbolictruth.fateback.com/yeshua-yasu-isa.htm (particularly the second large image near the bottom) for correct information on the name of Jesus in Hebrew. AnonMoos 15:40, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
This article definitely needs a lot more work -- maybe the first step is deciding what it should be (because currently it's a heterogeneous jumbled grab-bag). AnonMoos 06:33, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for taking care of a lot of the formatting stuff (and no, I don't have the slightest clue either as to what the difference between "crosses as emblems" and "crosses as symbols" may be). But there were a few problems with the heraldic terminology ("ordinary" is a noun in heraldry, not an adjective), and the "see also" list at the end of the Heraldry section is a list of other cross types which are mainly used in heraldry (not the same as the general "see also" list). AnonMoos 23:02, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
P.S. Maybe if the non-mainly-heraldic crosses could be organized in some better way than "symbols" vs. "emblems", then this page could be on the way to being a good article... AnonMoos 23:17, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
I have removed the following entry due to it's amateur sound, lack of references and ambiguous nature: -
What the user appears to be refering to is the rune of protection, also known as Eolh or Algiz, 'the moose rune'. Contrary to the 'peace sign', the emblem is facing three prongs upwards, the inversion of the rune implies the opposite effect, which in this case would be a warning of danger, hazard or risk. The 'cross' the user is refering to appears as follows: -
\ | / \|/ | |
Thus, whilst it could be argued to be a cross, I feel that unless it is address properly it should not be incorporated in this article (also an image would be handy). I would go as far as saying that comparing anything with a cross-section of some nature to a 'cross' is getting a little out of hand anyway. :P Jachin 20:01, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Dear "Brookie", I'm sure that Image:BozeatCross.JPG is highly authentic, but it isn't really so appropriate for this page, since it doesn't display as clearly in 150-pixel-wide thumbnail form (due to consisting of dark gray on light gray, and having a lot of blank wall space surrounding the cross) -- and most importantly, it contains five cross potents, which is not the most normal or proptypical form of the Jerusalem Cross (see http://flagspot.net/flags/crus-kj.html etc.). If there were a separate page devoted just to the Jerusalem or Crusaders' Cross, then BozeatCross.JPG would fit right in, but it doesn't work out so well as part of the summary table in this general amalgamated Cross page AnonMoos 00:08, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
By the way, someone removed the swastika from the "As emblems and symbols" section a little while back. I don't know if I care one way or the other about this, but other people might. AnonMoos 17:04, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
173.86.170.249 ( talk) 03:58, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I've changed the phrase "based on the fact that Saint Peter was martyred by being crucified upside-down" to say "based on a tradition that holds that Saint Peter was martyred by being crucified upside-down." Our main article on Saint Peter describes this as a traditional belief, not as a fact. If there is proof that he was crucified upside-down please present it at the main article. FreplySpang (talk) 02:35, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
the list of crosses contains some links to articles about the specific crosses. Most of these artical need work. I am posting here to bring attention to this fact. One example is the Cross or Lorraine article which contians many pictures of Patriarchal crosses incorrectly reffered to as Lorrain Crosses. Also, the specific articles do not contain links back to this artical, i feel these should be added. ScottW 04:44, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Requested articles page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_articles/Culture_and_fine_arts
is asking for " Ethiopian cross". Anybody? -- Writtenonsand 20:48, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Should the word and a link to crucifix appear somewhere in the article? Seems odd that it does not. NjtoTX 22:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
What else from this section should be removed? The masonry one seems to not really fit, and a couple of the others I'm a bit iffy on. -- Dulcimerist 21:41, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Could someone add this heraldic cross? It's on the old Spanish flag. -- Dulcimerist 06:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Specifically, I can think of the Victory over Islam Cross, which features a cresent moon at the foot of the cross. As well there are triple-bared crosses in which the bottom bar isn't slanted. I know there's more but that's all I can think of at the moment. Kevlar67 01:24, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
There's a bit of a mix-up regarding the Byzantine Cross. What's pictured is the Eastern Cross, used primarily by the Russian Orthodox Church. The Byzantine cross looks different, and is generally used by the Greek Orthodox Church. Here are the examples of these two different crosses:
Example of Byzantine Cross ( http://www.lutheransonline.com/lo/230/FSLO-1134560228-111230.jpg )
Example of Eastern Cross ( http://www.lutheransonline.com/lo/542/FSLO-1134560541-111542.jpg )
Does anyone mind if I correct this in this article, as well as the Byzantine cross page? Thanks! -- Dulcimerist 23:11, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
It was in use since early 9th century. It is used as symbol even today in some legal institutions. Croatian cross should be put on a list.
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CroatianCross.html
In my opinion the current representation of St James Cross does not fit the description appropriately as it does not fit the general depiction of the cross, nor are the cross ends true fleuries, nor is the pointed end a true sword blade. For a more complete discussion of my opinion see Talk:James,_son_of_Zebedee#Images. Please add comments there to keep a single location. Thanks Arnoutf 22:12, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I think there also should be a link to crosshairs somewhere in the article, as many simple ones are actual crosses.-- 66.133.217.107 21:23, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Could you sign me up in your external links: designercrosscollection.com
subject: discovery of the cross
User name: andrea07
Andrea07 22:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
nikki@designercrosscollection.com
Www.memorylanetattooco.com (Cross Tattoos) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Memorylanetattooco ( talk • contribs) 14:58, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Did the person who wrote this think the cross in question might actually be located elsewhere? Like they move it when nobody's looking? Hadda wonder. Zephyrad 21:38, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Is there anyway to type an inverted cross, or the St. Peter's cross with text using the keyboard? Doppelganger ( talk) 12:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm curious as to whether the "Order of Christ Cross" as illustrated is aka the "Jerusalem Cross," or if not, what does the Jerus c. look like? Any leads would be appreciated.
The diff. between an emblem and a symbol, IMO, is this: When I was in the Army, and wore a brass "US" on my collar, that was an emblem of the organization to which I belong. Scouts, athletes, even employees of any number of large business wear EMBLEMS meaning that they belong to a particular group. A SYMBOL, I think, is more abstract. A cross is a SYMBOL of self-sacrifice; the skull-and-crossbones was a SYMBOL of merciless combat in the abstract, though it could also be taken as an EMBLEM of a particular pirate crew. The Presbyterian cross and the Order of Christ Cross in that sense are emblems of that church and that order, as well as symbols of sacrifice. The Greek Orthodox cross with the crooked crosspiece at the bottom is a SYMBOL of mercy, since Jesus is said to have tilted it when he turned toward the 'Good Thief' to reassure him; it would also be an EMBLEM of the Orthodox churches.
And Zeph., I don't think the cross is allegedly in IL--you're right, I think we can see it pretty plain. I think the "allegedly" is meant to refer to it being the tallest one. There might be a taller one in Zamboanga or someplace where they don't have the internet. Even now, someone could be making his way across the Sahara in search of a library with a computer than he/she can log on to in order to edit that page. Kind of makes it worthwhile to get up in the morning, huh? Yes, I stretch things a bit.
Terry J. Carter ( talk) 19:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
This was removed March 13, 2008:
I would like to know why as I feel it is relevant. Was it in the wrong place in the article? Note that the reference remains in the article even though the definition was removed. If it is determined that the definition has no place then the reference ought to be removed as well. Please discuss. Loosestring ( talk) 16:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I added the definition back in and consolodated it with the other definitions since there was no answer to my question. If there is a dispute please discuss. Loosestring ( talk) 14:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
As far as you know? Do you have proof of this? You can't remove it from the article based on something "as far as you know". Loosestring ( talk) 19:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Galatians 3:13, Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake.” Paul was referring to a scripture in Deuteronomy 21:22, 23 “And in case there comes to be in a man a sin deserving the sentence of death, and he has been put to death, and you have hung him upon a stake, 23 his dead body should not stay all night on the stake; but you should by all means bury him on that day, because something accursed of God is the one hung up; and you must not defile your soil, which Jehovah your God is giving you as an inheritance. -- JoshuaMD ( talk) 18:31, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I agree with your statement regarding the book entitled the Two Babylons, but I was menetioning a wide range of historic content & information. As for some the sources being older, it only ephasizing the point it has long known by scholars. It in no cancels the information. The reality is also the list is far from exhaustive. Plus not all others are that old. And even the fact modern encyclopedias are repeating the same information shows much of that information has remained the same, and been information has still very consistent.
The cross was a religious symbol of the Babylonian Tammuz.
Two points here. Firstly, the argument that older knowledge is in some way less trustworthy than newer assumptions is, to put it quite simply, naive. Older accounts are usually found to be the more accurate, simply because time passing allows for re-interpretation and the vagaries of handed-down information. Secondly, this page is really not the place to decide this. We have already a page ( Dispute_about_Jesus'_execution_method) That discusses this. The most appropriate thing to do would be to indicate in the text that there is a dispute, and add a link to this page, or otherwise, remove the information entirely to the page on the Christian Cross, which already has a link to the previously mentioned page. 99.152.197.82 ( talk) 05:17, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
The scope of this article is far too broad to be useful. I think it would be better to have a "List of Christian Crosses" article dedicated to the various forms and history of that set of symbols, rather than lumping everything together is one unfocused list. When people are looking for information on the Greek Cross, for example, they are redirected here, to a list which includes a skull-and-crossbones, among other things. The various forms of the Christian cross are significant in terms of the history of Christianity and the factionalism within it. I think it warrants its own separate article. 71.179.155.179 ( talk) 06:49, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
This should be added but I don't know how...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakana
178.103.22.206 ( talk) 04:22, 27 January 2011 (UTC) Ben
Bloodkith ( talk) 00:15, 16 May 2011 (UTC) ps. ive seen pics of a salem cross with little crosslets on it's end. chic claimed it was a sign of baphomet but his info is biased. is this just a variant of the same cross or is it different.
ive noticed the cross with the rising flame on its side is not here. Methodist. is just considered the roman cross? Bloodkith ( talk) 07:21, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
i was looking at online pics and saw a cross shape (plus sign) center made from four touching budhist type swastikas if i drew it up myself would it be usable or is the design itself subject to some sort of trademark/ copyright etc? Bloodkith ( talk) 07:29, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
It seems to me that there is plenty of content here to support spinning off the heraldry-related content to a new article (perhaps cross (heraldry) or crosses in heraldry - both of which currently redirect back the heraldry section here), with a summary paragraph left behind here and a link to the new article. It looks like the heraldry content here accounts for about 1/3 of the current article's content, and much more could be written about crosses in an heraldic context.
The current table of cross images with brief descriptions really does not do justice to the importance of crosses and their various forms to the field of heraldry. Indeed, the widespread European use of heraldry and the variety and colours of crosses painted on the shields and surcoats of Crusaders went hand in hand, but the current article doesn't even mention that, nor does it have room for it. Within a separate article, we can give due weight to the role of the cross in the development of heraldry, as well as the influence of heraldic applications on the development of various cross forms.
So my question is not only whether we should split the content to a new article, but also which title we should use for the new heraldry-focused article. Wilhelm Meis ( ☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 15:32, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Canadian heraldry is modern and is thus not a reliable or useful source for providing examples of heraldic usage. Better to use examples from heraldry of prominent families in England during the golden age of heraldry, i.e. at about the time of the founding of the Order of the Garter, 1348. (or of other European countries in similar period).( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 20:03, 22 September 2014 (UTC))
The Christian cross and Christian symbols articles have a hard time figuring this out, apparently because they were dominated by religious Christian editors who, while certainly editing in (ahem) good faith, were limited to scanning English translations of Tertullian etc. (thus reporting that Tertullian distinguished between the words "cross" and "stake", and similar).
Reviewing the evidence, it appears to turn out that yes, the "cross" (crux) was used as a Christian sign as early as the 2nd century, and 3rd-century Christian authors were busy denying the accusations that they were "worshipping the cross" (only makes sense if you realise that the word crux means "gibbet" and not "the cross shape"). But the sign of the cross in the ancient period clearly was a T-shape. It is not clear when the first "Greek cross" ✚ or "Latin cross" ✝ were first used as Christian symbols. I was able to pinpoint the earliest occurrence of the cruciform halo in an early 6th century mosaic at Ravenna. I wonder if the crucificorm halo predates the isolated use of the Greek cross. I also wonder if the emergence of the Greek cross symbol is in any way derived from the letter Chi used as abbreviation for Christos. These developments would have taken place around the 4th to 6th centuries, but apparently we completely lack coverage on them ( Greek cross and Latin cross do not even exist as articles). -- dab (𒁳) 11:02, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
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