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Archive 1 |
I read that Cronus means Raven. Granted, the source is not reliable, but does anyone have some information?
Reply to David Latapie 12:32, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
The picture is entirely inappropriate. I've never heard of Cronus being depicted in this manner, and googling reveals a plethora of images which look very unlike it. Do you have a source for him being a malevolent, hooded, lithe, beardless man of indeterminate age with a fiery scythe? Placing this image here makes it appear as though that was how he was depicted in ancient Greece and is misleading, even if there are a few exceptions, because that was not how he was depicted. Tuf-Kat 04:24, Jan 9, 2004 (UTC)
I think that cronus was just defening his throne and is thought of as a carnavour though he swallowed them whole and when they were thrown up they were still alive the pics i have seen googling are misleading. 1/25/06 This sketch looks really silly. And besides, it's overlaying the text. RickK 04:27, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
It was not overlaying text. Someone messed with the image and caused that problem.
It is not inappropriate. It is not vulgar, sexually demonstrative, and depicts no graphic representation of violence. Other users have voiced clear support of it. The fact thay you have never heard of Cronus being depicted in a certain way is not my problem nor the problem of any Wikipedia users. Most sites only post images of Monkey that fit with other greek reliefs, in which he is a bearded man with a cloak and either a sickle or similar implement. Yet I have often seen pictures of Cronus in which he looks very much as depicted in the illustration I provided. The fact that another user immediately corrected you the last time you suggested that should have been enough. The character was not depicted as molevolent and actually even in the more common depictions of Cronus he had both a sickle or scythe and was hooded.
And contrary to what the original author is suggesting Cronus (Saturn) was associated with time by many Greek authors who used the character. Some Greek authors chose to differentiate Cronus into two distinct identities, but most did not.
Gee. I see a lot of unattributed talk here. Good thing I ignore unattributed text... -
UtherSRG 19:46, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
P.S. Please sign your posts using three tildes (~~~) or four to place the date and time after your name, as in Tuf-Kat 20:35, Jan 9, 2004 (UTC).
1) The african grey parrot was added because the picture already there did not depict a clear profile of the bird.
2) The image of cronus was removed and replaced with an actual greek relief of cronus and you again removed it saying that it was a homemade sketch.
3) The image of bigfoot was absolutely appropriate and it obvious that you are going out of your way to deface anything I touch on here merely as a personal attack. I contacted other wikipedia users about the sasquatch image and a few changed it back for me only to have you remove it again.
So, I will compromise thus, I will leave the image of cronus and the parrot out, as there are arguably reasons to leave them out. However, the bigfoot image is hurting no one and is appreciated by many Wikipedia users who will only be robbed of a pleasurable experience by your removing it.
Thank you.
The "homemade scketch" appears to be an accurate archeological drawing of an actual relief carving which illustrates a Greek story about Rhea handing the stone as a child substitute to Cronus, as described in the article. See [1] and our article text. Jamesday 10:57, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to add the famous painting by Goya of Saturn/Cronus devouring a son? I admit that it involves some violent imagery. (See fr:Cronos and it:Crono.) -- Emsworth 21:25, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's a good image but I don't think the URL is needed in the text, especially since it seems to give an incorect title to the painting. Economy1 10:20, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
So can we get at least some picture of Cronus? It would be nice as it looks a bit incomplete right now. -- Kookoo275 03:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I have created a new disambig page Cronos (disambiguation), obviously for all the meanings using that particular spelling. So now we have Cronos (disambiguation), Chronos (disambiguation), Kronos, Khronos, Cronus (disambiguation) and Cronos, which redirects here. -- Neofelis Nebulosa (моє обговорення) 11:12, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
An earlier version of Cronos, that before worship of Zeus became popular, is considered to be connected to the Semitic deity Ba`al Hammon.
What is this suppose to mean?-- Broke n 12:12, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
How come is the man lion of hindu myth related to this corvine deity of grecolatin myth?
The article states:
An earlier version of Cronus, from before worship of Zeus became popular, is considered to be connected to the Semitic deity Ba`al Hammon. The baby-eating myth of Cronos is considered to derive from such early religions, as Ba`al Hammon was sometimes worshiped as Moloch, whose cult involved child sacrifice by burning within a statue of Ba`al Hammon.
The earliest know reference to Cronus is Hesiod. There was very little evidence of this deities' worship in classical times and absolutely no evidence whatsoever that there was an earlier Cronus, from "before worship of Zeus became popular". It is extremely unlikely that Cronus was worshipped or even existed in a time before the cult of Zeus had become established. Just because Cronus is Zeus' father in myth does not mean that Cronus is older that Zeus in fact or cult or worship. Unless there is evidence provided for this pre-Zeus Cronus the above statement should be removed.
It is true that some Greeks identified Cronus with the Phoenician and Carthaginian god Ba'al, but beyond this there is no evidence at all that the two gods were in any way connected.
The Prime Source 20:41, 29 April 2007 (UTC)Dale
I removed the "Cronos in popular culture" section, as it contained only a single instance, and that being a video game. I'd probably have let it be out of laziness, but it was also full of blatant typos. :) -- Starwed 10:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
User:Til Eulenspiegel - Can you please cite a source for this paragraph as this original source cannot be WP:V. Unless you translated the Praeparatio Evangelica yourself - which would be original research.
The reference I have (Extracts from Eusebius of Caesarea: Praeparatio Evangelica (Preparation for the Gospel). Tr. E. H. Gifford (1903)) carried the following translations from ch10 :-
CHAPTER X
Theology of the Phoenicians
'And from them is born Epigeius or Autochthon, whom they afterwards called Uranus; so that from him they named the element above us Uranus because of the excellence of its beauty. And he has a sister born of the aforesaid parents, who was called Ge (earth), and from her, he says, because of her beauty, they called the earth by the same name. And their father, the Most High, died in an encounter with wild beasts, and was deified, and his children offered to him libations and sacrifices
'And in the thirty-second year of his power and kingdom Elus, that is Kronos, having waylaid his father Uranus in an inland spot, and got him into his hands, emasculates him near some fountains and rivers. There Uranus was deified: and as he breathed his last, the blood from his wounds dropped into the fountains and into the waters of the rivers, and the spot is pointed out to this day.' 'Kronos also, in going round the world, gives the kingdom of Attica to his own daughter Athena. But on the occurrence of a pestilence and mortality Kronos offers his only begotten son as a whole burnt-offering to his father Uranus, and circumcises himself, compelling his allies also to do the same. And not long after another of his sons by Rhea, named Muth, having died, he deifies him, and the Phoenicians call him Thanatos and Pluto. And after this Kronos gives the city Byblos to the goddess Baaltis, who is also called Dione, and Berytus to Poseidon and to the Cabeiri and Agrotae and Halieis, who also consecrated the remains of Pontus at Berytus.
Dlm4473 (
talk)
18:58, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
And this sentence, just above what you quoted:
I don't know of any better way to summarize these things than they are now, but calling it Original research or uncited doesn't seem to fit, and at any rate you seem not to know how to properly use templates on an article. Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 20:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
“I don't get what the problem is....” ? ? ? – no you obviously dont !!
1. Your citation is still incorrect ( Gifford 1903 perhaps ?)
2. “I am using the same translation you have” – i’m glad we agree on something !– as far as i know there is no abridges version.
3. "And their father, the Most High” – please read more carefully and ref – “In their time is born a certain Elioun called "the Most High,"” – He was the father of Epigeius (Uranus) and Ge.
4. “and states ......., he castrated, slew and deified his father Epigeius or Autochthon "whom they afterwards called Uranus"” – WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT ? – I believe it says “Elus, that is Kronos, having waylaid his father Uranus in an inland spot, and got him into his hands, emasculates him near some fountains and rivers.” There is no mention of castration anywhere !
5. "There Uranus was deified" – Correct !! – but it was not an act by Uranus was it ? he was deified the Phoenician people.
6. “It clearly describes in the preceding section . . “ yes it does – in the PRECEDING sections ! - it does not “ further state that after ships were invented, Cronos, visiting the 'inhabitable world'” which implies the invention was during his lifetime, but it was many generations before. This statement either needs to be expanded (accurately) or deleted as irrelevant.
7. “and Egypt to Thoth” again where in the text does it say that? -what it says is “'And when Kronos came into the South country he gave all Egypt to the god Tauthus” - Upon the birth of Tauthus it states “'From Misor was born Taautus, who invented the first written alphabet; the Egyptians called him Thoyth, the Alexandrians Thoth, and the Greeks Hermes.” Please explain to me why you feel the need to refer to him with his Egyptian name – in a section about the Phoenicians ?
8. “and Egypt to Thoth” – Considering Tautus travelled with Cronos – he did not give him Egypt until their return - not at the same time he bequeathed Attica to Athena.
9. Your reference to Misor is confusing and irrelevant !
10. Tauthus is credited with inventing “the first written alphabet”
11. “I don't know of any better way to summarize these things than they are now” - if this is the case why then did you delete the accuratly written section composed by me ?
If you still “don’t get what the problem is” perhaps it is because have taken a piece of text 3740 words long (1195 relating directly to Cronos) and bastardised it into 95 words of nonsensical drivel.
“and at any rate you seem not to know how to properly use templates on an article.” – to this i do apologise, i am new to WP and have a lot to learn, i accept this. – I do however find such a remark just a bit pathetic and childish – Has anyone ever told you to GROW UP ! but . . . as you started it . . . Yeah but at least I can read ! nah nah !
Dlm4473 ( talk) 22:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Til - firstly . . . in a calmer tone . . I would welcome the oportunity to work between each other on this - and come to an agreement.
I would however atempt to, provide you with a hopefully more 'reasoned' view of my issues with this paragraph. (as i understand it)
1. Glifford (1903)directly translates Eusebius(260-340 AD), who references the translations of Philo of Byblius (64 - 141 AD) made from the "Phoenition Histroy" written by Sanchuniaton (BETWEEN 2000 + 1339 BC ?) Can we really afford to dilute this text any more with 'harmless' paraphase ? e.g. emasculate = to castrate, yes! but an alternative definition is "To deprive of strength or vigor, weaken" similarly " symbols on Gerzean pottery from circa 4000 BC resemble hieroglyphic writing. Egyptian hieroglyphs - these 'writings' were 2000 years before Tauthus's Alaphabet ! ?
2. Sanchuniathons' Phoenician History is the oldest known non-coded archive of the Western World, not to mention a Theological text of a civilisation - Nobody would dare to paraphase the Bible on WP so why should it be allowed here ?
3. The text 'appears' (to me) to show at least a foundation of both Egyption and Greek ... 'mythology' (dont want to debate semantics) yet it is not recgnised as such
4. Your point on Cronos/Taautus is valid - i apologise - I am but an amature historian, and welcome being pointed (gently) in the right dirrection. My mistake here (I believe) - It is from Egtption myth that Thoth tours the world with Orisis.
5. As far as names go It was my 'impression' that "whom they afterwards called ..." refered to 'they' as the Greeks [an edit by Eusebius or Philo ?]. If this is correct then it would be my belief the use of there correct Phoenician names would be more appropriate - with reference made to the alternatives obviously.
Dlm4473 ( talk) 02:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
1. Changing 'castrate' to 'emasculate' is no problem, if it means that much to you. As for 'invented writing' vs. 'written alphabet' - The Egyptian mythology holds that it was Thoth who invented hieroglyphs. Probably a variant of Sanchuniathon's story, but we don't give either one historical credence, nor do we try to alter what was written to fit historically known facts. Sanch. seems to be recording the opinion that Tauthus / Thoth was the first to "begin the writing of records", we are only faithfully representing what this indicates the belief was at one time. Mind you, we don't even know for sure if Sanchuniathon was real, let alone how long ago he lived, to be able to estimate anything like a precise date, but since he does mention Hesiod, that would seem to put him more recently than 700 BC.
2. I agree that we should try to be as precise and accurate as possible but short of reproducing the entire passage in extenso the only other option we have is a succinct and accurate summary of the main interesting points involving Cronos.
3. In order to quote any kind of point like this, we would need to attribute it to a published source, since it sounds like an opinion
4. No problem
5. Again if we have no indications or sources to tell us who "they" is, then assuming it is an interpolation referring to Greeks is assuming just a bit too much. But if you look again at all the repeated uses of the word "deified" on that entire page, along with all the other related discussion attributed to Sanch. there, it is rather clearly stated that the society to which the document refers (ie. the early Phoenicians) are depicted as making their own notable inventors into deities (that is declaring them to be objects of worship), usually soon after their deaths. Regards, Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 02:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry was trying to sneek this in on the end of last but as I pressed save, your text came up.
anyway this is from chapter 9 "'But with a view to clearness hereafter, and the determination of particulars, it is necessary to state distinctly beforehand that the most ancient of the barbarians, and especially the Phoenicians and Egyptians, from whom the rest of mankind received their traditions, regarded as the greatest gods those who had discovered the necessaries of life, or in some way done good to the nations. Esteeming these as benefactors and authors of many blessings, they worshipped them also as gods after their death This is a direct quote from Philo.
As per your ref to Hesoid - you do realise that it is Philo who is refering to him not San. "Philo having explained these points in his preface, next begins his interpretation of Sanchuniathon by setting forth the theology of the Phoenicians"" Dlm4473 ( talk) 03:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
"As a result of his association and virtuous Golden Age, Cronus was..." Should read "As a result of his association with the virtuous Golden age..." --Can't fix it because its protected because people probably put things like "He eats his babies lol." *checks revision history* Jacobe11 ( talk) 05:25, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
What does this mean? What source is being drawn on for this identification?-- Wetman ( talk) 09:41, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm not all up on wiki things, so pardon my crappy doings and such, but I think this might also constitute vandalism:
*Rhea secretly gave birth to Zeus in Crete, and handed Cronus a stone wrapped in swaddling clothes, also known as the Omphalos Stone, which he promptly devoured, thinking that it was his dick.
I don't see how he thought it was... anyone's dick. I lol'd a little, but uh. I don't think that's legitimate at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.25.207.229 ( talk) 22:17, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
The article states that Cronus disgorged a goat after the stone that substituted for Zeus. What goat is this? Is it a reference to the alternative story that Rhea tricked Cronus into eating an animal instead of Poseidon? Skaysee ( talk) 15:55, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
In Plato's Cratylus it was given the etymology from χρόνος ( Chronos - meaning time) which, together with Rhea (ρείν, "flow") mean a "current" that moves and does not remain still (see Plato, Cratylus 402b). For Plato in Cratylus, 402b wrote:
There is a brief description in the article of Rhea. Yet, User:Til Eulenspiegel keeps on removing Plato's Cratylus reference from this article. Does anyone else feel that Plato's account should be ignored? -- Odysses (₪) 23:17, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
There is too much emphasis in this article which is trying to equate this greek myth with a, supposedly, older hebrew myth. I removed the 'Name' section because it adds little to this and is basically restated later anyway. Why is the article talking about El at all? What about the Egyptian equivalents? The Persian?... I'm getting fed up of this. 86.135.244.44 ( talk) 14:52, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
When you remove something you should at least Copy/Paste what you remove here, the information that was in the name section was very important to certain things I'm trying to study and now I have no place to find that information. The etymology of a deity's name is very important, and now Kronos is the one without one.
1. The section named "Name and comparative mythology" is very hard and unpleasant to read. It's way too technical. I believe it should be modified.
2. The sentence "Cronus, joined by the Titans, makes war against and eventually defeats his brother Jupiter" is weird. Cronus is the father of Jupiter/Zeus. Something is wrong with the sentence.
3. "Cronus is again mentioned in the Sibylline Oracles, particularly book three, which makes Cronus, 'Titan' and Iapetus, the three sons of Uranus and Gaia, each to receive a third division of the Earth, and Cronus is made king over all." 'Titan' was not a son of Uranus. There is no such god. Something must be wrong with the sentence. The god is probably a Titan.
ICE77 ( talk) 08:24, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
A. "In an alternate version of this myth, a more benevolent Cronus overthrew the wicked serpentine Titan Ophion. In doing so, he released the world from bondage and for a time ruled it justly."
A source is needed. Who said this?
B. "Rhea kept Zeus hidden in a cave on Mount Ida, Crete. According to some versions of the story, he was then raised by a goat named Amalthea, while a company of Kouretes, armored male dancers, shouted and clapped their hands to make enough noise to mask the baby's cries from Cronus. Other versions of the myth have Zeus raised by the nymph Adamanthea, who hid Zeus by dangling him by a rope from a tree so that he was suspended between the earth, the sea, and the sky, all of which were ruled by his father, Cronus. Still other versions of the tale say that Zeus was raised by his grandmother, Gaia."
Would it be possible to point out the 3 sources for the 3 versions above?
C. "Once he had grown up, Zeus used an emetic given to him by Gaia to force Cronus to disgorge the contents of his stomach in reverse order: first the stone, which was set down at Pytho under the glens of Mount Parnassus to be a sign to mortal men, then the goat, and then his two brothers and three sisters. In other versions of the tale, Metis gave Cronus an emetic to force him to disgorge the children, or Zeus cut Cronus' stomach open."
Who wrote which version?
D. "In another version, the Titans released the Cyclopes from Tartarus, and Cronus was awarded the kingship among them, beginning a Golden Age."
Who wrote this?
E. "Libyan account related by Diodorus Siculus"
Is Titea meant to be Gaia? Is Jupiter brother of Saturn as Zeus brother of Cronus?
ICE77 ( talk) 20:59, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
I have removed "I was here! " added by 24.106.176.94 in neo-paganism.
He also added "Cronus ate his children so they wouldn't overthrow him." in In popular culture - I don't know if that is correct.
-- Beardo 04:21, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
This sentence, surprisingly, is incomplete!
"... establishing that the "castration" of the heavens by means of a sickle as part of a creation myth..." ... is what? or does what?
This sentence has become a little scrambled, through repeated edits, no doubt. Does anyone know its original intent? Heavenlyblue ( talk) 00:28, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
I wonder why a Semitic origin has been invoked for the meaning of horn. According to my dicitionary it is related to krainoo I am lord and kreioon sovereign. Krainoo is in turn related to a theme krn from which kranos helm and Latin cornu horn. From IE root kr. Aldrasto11 ( talk) 14:15, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Thought Uranus was the Roman name for Ouranos, and since we art talking about Greek Gods - shouldn't it be Ouranos?
166.250.2.35 ( talk) 22:03, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Where's the evidence that this is the case? These links suggest they are the same, or at least that one was clearly derived from the the other: [2], [3].
"Khronos was essentially a cosmological version of Kronos who appears in the Orphic cosmogonies. The Orphics later integrated him with Phanes." Nathan J. Yoder 01:04, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I have to agree Chronos (Kronos) and Chronus must be the same. The story of Chronus is an allegory for the affect of time on humanity itself. Chronus consumes all of his children, the same way father time eventually consumes all men. This is the origin of the ancient riddle "Who is the father who eats all of his children?" Answer: "Father time", or as the Ancient Greeks would have answered Chronus certainly meaning Zeus' father and referencing the Hellenistic creation myth. I think a problem for many modern scholars is the lack of continuity between the description of the early Chronus or Chronos that is seen as vulgar, dim witted and mean, were as later Chronos comes to be a more wise and fatherly figure. Much like the lack of continuity in the Hebrew God of the Old testament and the New testament this was not much of an issue for ancient writers. Simply read the Iliad and you will understand what I mean even more clearly as warriors who had died many pages previous appear again in battle, and other characters act entirely uncharacteristic of previous characterizations. This did not bother Homer or his listeners. Another explanation could be that just like fathers of men Father Time starts out as a rash and unwise father, but as time goes on he becomes more and more wise. Anyone who was born to a young man can relate to this. More proof of Chronos and Chronus being the same person is the Latin God Saturn who was identified both as Jupiter's father and Father time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.146.96.164 ( talk) 08:48, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
"Kronos" Κρόνος (Latin "Cronos" or "Cronus") ≠ "Khronos" χρόνος (would be written "chronos" in Latin). The words are as different as English "Pat" and "fat". Greek kappa Κκ and chi Χχ are different letters representing different sounds.
Nathan J. Yoder's
Encyclopædia Britannica link (it requires a registration), the article on Cronus (Greek god), is quite short (253 words) and says nothing about χρόνος, which means "time".
His other citation ascribes the identification of Kronos with personified Time to the
Orphics, but the identity is debated in modern analysis. --
Thnidu (
talk)
02:30, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
I don't see why they seemed "silly" here as in the Greek religion Kronos (Cronus) was actually succeeded by Zeus as "King of the Gods" and by Atlas as "Leader of the Titans" though for most people I'd say that finding this information in the body of the text would make these boxes redundant we must adhere WP:READER and I'd argue that these boxes would simplify the line of succession for "lazy readers" and "novice readers on the subject". Sincerely, -- 86.81.201.94 ( talk) 20:29, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
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1. Cronus was forced into Tartarus and the majority of Titans show their abode as Tartarus in the box on the top right of the page. Cronus should have "Tartarus (Homer) or Cave of Nyx (Orphic poems)".
2. "(Cronus also fathered Chiron, by Philyra)."
This information is not really relevant to the story before it. I think it should not be there. I removed it.
3. The mythology section calls for "versions" 6 times and for "texts" 1 time. The article should explicitly refer to some sources.
4. Kumarbi is mentioned at the end of the antiquity section. If I understand correctly, it is a Mesopotamian god (something to add to the text).
ICE77 ( talk) 06:03, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
This article starts with "Not to be confused with Chronos, the personification of time" and mentions that "During antiquity, Cronus was occasionally interpreted as Chronos, the personification of time."
However, in the "Name and comparative mythology > Antiquity" section, there are only examples of people (Plutarch, Cicero, Proclus, etc) who DO combine Kronus/Chronos. There's no indication of why people would consider them separate, or any mention of ancient sources that indicated they were distinct deities. This gives the impression of an ancient consensus that Kronus and Chronos were the same, since there seems to be no reason to believe otherwise.
I've heard tons of people insist that Kronus and Chronos are different, but I don't know what sources they get that from. Someone more familiar with those sources should add some to this section, as a counter-point to the Plutarch/Cicero/Proclus argument combining them. 75.84.244.34 ( talk) 20:44, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. Treetoes023 ( talk) 00:02, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
– The proper transliteration of Κρόνος is Kronos, not Cronus; per WP:NCGREEK. This article is the primary topic for Kronos so the move shouldn't be a problem. Treetoes023 ( talk) 18:41, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
Naturalness – The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles.Interesting question - what are most readers most likely to search for or editors to link to?
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I read that Cronus means Raven. Granted, the source is not reliable, but does anyone have some information?
Reply to David Latapie 12:32, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
The picture is entirely inappropriate. I've never heard of Cronus being depicted in this manner, and googling reveals a plethora of images which look very unlike it. Do you have a source for him being a malevolent, hooded, lithe, beardless man of indeterminate age with a fiery scythe? Placing this image here makes it appear as though that was how he was depicted in ancient Greece and is misleading, even if there are a few exceptions, because that was not how he was depicted. Tuf-Kat 04:24, Jan 9, 2004 (UTC)
I think that cronus was just defening his throne and is thought of as a carnavour though he swallowed them whole and when they were thrown up they were still alive the pics i have seen googling are misleading. 1/25/06 This sketch looks really silly. And besides, it's overlaying the text. RickK 04:27, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
It was not overlaying text. Someone messed with the image and caused that problem.
It is not inappropriate. It is not vulgar, sexually demonstrative, and depicts no graphic representation of violence. Other users have voiced clear support of it. The fact thay you have never heard of Cronus being depicted in a certain way is not my problem nor the problem of any Wikipedia users. Most sites only post images of Monkey that fit with other greek reliefs, in which he is a bearded man with a cloak and either a sickle or similar implement. Yet I have often seen pictures of Cronus in which he looks very much as depicted in the illustration I provided. The fact that another user immediately corrected you the last time you suggested that should have been enough. The character was not depicted as molevolent and actually even in the more common depictions of Cronus he had both a sickle or scythe and was hooded.
And contrary to what the original author is suggesting Cronus (Saturn) was associated with time by many Greek authors who used the character. Some Greek authors chose to differentiate Cronus into two distinct identities, but most did not.
Gee. I see a lot of unattributed talk here. Good thing I ignore unattributed text... -
UtherSRG 19:46, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
P.S. Please sign your posts using three tildes (~~~) or four to place the date and time after your name, as in Tuf-Kat 20:35, Jan 9, 2004 (UTC).
1) The african grey parrot was added because the picture already there did not depict a clear profile of the bird.
2) The image of cronus was removed and replaced with an actual greek relief of cronus and you again removed it saying that it was a homemade sketch.
3) The image of bigfoot was absolutely appropriate and it obvious that you are going out of your way to deface anything I touch on here merely as a personal attack. I contacted other wikipedia users about the sasquatch image and a few changed it back for me only to have you remove it again.
So, I will compromise thus, I will leave the image of cronus and the parrot out, as there are arguably reasons to leave them out. However, the bigfoot image is hurting no one and is appreciated by many Wikipedia users who will only be robbed of a pleasurable experience by your removing it.
Thank you.
The "homemade scketch" appears to be an accurate archeological drawing of an actual relief carving which illustrates a Greek story about Rhea handing the stone as a child substitute to Cronus, as described in the article. See [1] and our article text. Jamesday 10:57, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to add the famous painting by Goya of Saturn/Cronus devouring a son? I admit that it involves some violent imagery. (See fr:Cronos and it:Crono.) -- Emsworth 21:25, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's a good image but I don't think the URL is needed in the text, especially since it seems to give an incorect title to the painting. Economy1 10:20, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
So can we get at least some picture of Cronus? It would be nice as it looks a bit incomplete right now. -- Kookoo275 03:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I have created a new disambig page Cronos (disambiguation), obviously for all the meanings using that particular spelling. So now we have Cronos (disambiguation), Chronos (disambiguation), Kronos, Khronos, Cronus (disambiguation) and Cronos, which redirects here. -- Neofelis Nebulosa (моє обговорення) 11:12, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
An earlier version of Cronos, that before worship of Zeus became popular, is considered to be connected to the Semitic deity Ba`al Hammon.
What is this suppose to mean?-- Broke n 12:12, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
How come is the man lion of hindu myth related to this corvine deity of grecolatin myth?
The article states:
An earlier version of Cronus, from before worship of Zeus became popular, is considered to be connected to the Semitic deity Ba`al Hammon. The baby-eating myth of Cronos is considered to derive from such early religions, as Ba`al Hammon was sometimes worshiped as Moloch, whose cult involved child sacrifice by burning within a statue of Ba`al Hammon.
The earliest know reference to Cronus is Hesiod. There was very little evidence of this deities' worship in classical times and absolutely no evidence whatsoever that there was an earlier Cronus, from "before worship of Zeus became popular". It is extremely unlikely that Cronus was worshipped or even existed in a time before the cult of Zeus had become established. Just because Cronus is Zeus' father in myth does not mean that Cronus is older that Zeus in fact or cult or worship. Unless there is evidence provided for this pre-Zeus Cronus the above statement should be removed.
It is true that some Greeks identified Cronus with the Phoenician and Carthaginian god Ba'al, but beyond this there is no evidence at all that the two gods were in any way connected.
The Prime Source 20:41, 29 April 2007 (UTC)Dale
I removed the "Cronos in popular culture" section, as it contained only a single instance, and that being a video game. I'd probably have let it be out of laziness, but it was also full of blatant typos. :) -- Starwed 10:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
User:Til Eulenspiegel - Can you please cite a source for this paragraph as this original source cannot be WP:V. Unless you translated the Praeparatio Evangelica yourself - which would be original research.
The reference I have (Extracts from Eusebius of Caesarea: Praeparatio Evangelica (Preparation for the Gospel). Tr. E. H. Gifford (1903)) carried the following translations from ch10 :-
CHAPTER X
Theology of the Phoenicians
'And from them is born Epigeius or Autochthon, whom they afterwards called Uranus; so that from him they named the element above us Uranus because of the excellence of its beauty. And he has a sister born of the aforesaid parents, who was called Ge (earth), and from her, he says, because of her beauty, they called the earth by the same name. And their father, the Most High, died in an encounter with wild beasts, and was deified, and his children offered to him libations and sacrifices
'And in the thirty-second year of his power and kingdom Elus, that is Kronos, having waylaid his father Uranus in an inland spot, and got him into his hands, emasculates him near some fountains and rivers. There Uranus was deified: and as he breathed his last, the blood from his wounds dropped into the fountains and into the waters of the rivers, and the spot is pointed out to this day.' 'Kronos also, in going round the world, gives the kingdom of Attica to his own daughter Athena. But on the occurrence of a pestilence and mortality Kronos offers his only begotten son as a whole burnt-offering to his father Uranus, and circumcises himself, compelling his allies also to do the same. And not long after another of his sons by Rhea, named Muth, having died, he deifies him, and the Phoenicians call him Thanatos and Pluto. And after this Kronos gives the city Byblos to the goddess Baaltis, who is also called Dione, and Berytus to Poseidon and to the Cabeiri and Agrotae and Halieis, who also consecrated the remains of Pontus at Berytus.
Dlm4473 (
talk)
18:58, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
And this sentence, just above what you quoted:
I don't know of any better way to summarize these things than they are now, but calling it Original research or uncited doesn't seem to fit, and at any rate you seem not to know how to properly use templates on an article. Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 20:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
“I don't get what the problem is....” ? ? ? – no you obviously dont !!
1. Your citation is still incorrect ( Gifford 1903 perhaps ?)
2. “I am using the same translation you have” – i’m glad we agree on something !– as far as i know there is no abridges version.
3. "And their father, the Most High” – please read more carefully and ref – “In their time is born a certain Elioun called "the Most High,"” – He was the father of Epigeius (Uranus) and Ge.
4. “and states ......., he castrated, slew and deified his father Epigeius or Autochthon "whom they afterwards called Uranus"” – WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT ? – I believe it says “Elus, that is Kronos, having waylaid his father Uranus in an inland spot, and got him into his hands, emasculates him near some fountains and rivers.” There is no mention of castration anywhere !
5. "There Uranus was deified" – Correct !! – but it was not an act by Uranus was it ? he was deified the Phoenician people.
6. “It clearly describes in the preceding section . . “ yes it does – in the PRECEDING sections ! - it does not “ further state that after ships were invented, Cronos, visiting the 'inhabitable world'” which implies the invention was during his lifetime, but it was many generations before. This statement either needs to be expanded (accurately) or deleted as irrelevant.
7. “and Egypt to Thoth” again where in the text does it say that? -what it says is “'And when Kronos came into the South country he gave all Egypt to the god Tauthus” - Upon the birth of Tauthus it states “'From Misor was born Taautus, who invented the first written alphabet; the Egyptians called him Thoyth, the Alexandrians Thoth, and the Greeks Hermes.” Please explain to me why you feel the need to refer to him with his Egyptian name – in a section about the Phoenicians ?
8. “and Egypt to Thoth” – Considering Tautus travelled with Cronos – he did not give him Egypt until their return - not at the same time he bequeathed Attica to Athena.
9. Your reference to Misor is confusing and irrelevant !
10. Tauthus is credited with inventing “the first written alphabet”
11. “I don't know of any better way to summarize these things than they are now” - if this is the case why then did you delete the accuratly written section composed by me ?
If you still “don’t get what the problem is” perhaps it is because have taken a piece of text 3740 words long (1195 relating directly to Cronos) and bastardised it into 95 words of nonsensical drivel.
“and at any rate you seem not to know how to properly use templates on an article.” – to this i do apologise, i am new to WP and have a lot to learn, i accept this. – I do however find such a remark just a bit pathetic and childish – Has anyone ever told you to GROW UP ! but . . . as you started it . . . Yeah but at least I can read ! nah nah !
Dlm4473 ( talk) 22:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Til - firstly . . . in a calmer tone . . I would welcome the oportunity to work between each other on this - and come to an agreement.
I would however atempt to, provide you with a hopefully more 'reasoned' view of my issues with this paragraph. (as i understand it)
1. Glifford (1903)directly translates Eusebius(260-340 AD), who references the translations of Philo of Byblius (64 - 141 AD) made from the "Phoenition Histroy" written by Sanchuniaton (BETWEEN 2000 + 1339 BC ?) Can we really afford to dilute this text any more with 'harmless' paraphase ? e.g. emasculate = to castrate, yes! but an alternative definition is "To deprive of strength or vigor, weaken" similarly " symbols on Gerzean pottery from circa 4000 BC resemble hieroglyphic writing. Egyptian hieroglyphs - these 'writings' were 2000 years before Tauthus's Alaphabet ! ?
2. Sanchuniathons' Phoenician History is the oldest known non-coded archive of the Western World, not to mention a Theological text of a civilisation - Nobody would dare to paraphase the Bible on WP so why should it be allowed here ?
3. The text 'appears' (to me) to show at least a foundation of both Egyption and Greek ... 'mythology' (dont want to debate semantics) yet it is not recgnised as such
4. Your point on Cronos/Taautus is valid - i apologise - I am but an amature historian, and welcome being pointed (gently) in the right dirrection. My mistake here (I believe) - It is from Egtption myth that Thoth tours the world with Orisis.
5. As far as names go It was my 'impression' that "whom they afterwards called ..." refered to 'they' as the Greeks [an edit by Eusebius or Philo ?]. If this is correct then it would be my belief the use of there correct Phoenician names would be more appropriate - with reference made to the alternatives obviously.
Dlm4473 ( talk) 02:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
1. Changing 'castrate' to 'emasculate' is no problem, if it means that much to you. As for 'invented writing' vs. 'written alphabet' - The Egyptian mythology holds that it was Thoth who invented hieroglyphs. Probably a variant of Sanchuniathon's story, but we don't give either one historical credence, nor do we try to alter what was written to fit historically known facts. Sanch. seems to be recording the opinion that Tauthus / Thoth was the first to "begin the writing of records", we are only faithfully representing what this indicates the belief was at one time. Mind you, we don't even know for sure if Sanchuniathon was real, let alone how long ago he lived, to be able to estimate anything like a precise date, but since he does mention Hesiod, that would seem to put him more recently than 700 BC.
2. I agree that we should try to be as precise and accurate as possible but short of reproducing the entire passage in extenso the only other option we have is a succinct and accurate summary of the main interesting points involving Cronos.
3. In order to quote any kind of point like this, we would need to attribute it to a published source, since it sounds like an opinion
4. No problem
5. Again if we have no indications or sources to tell us who "they" is, then assuming it is an interpolation referring to Greeks is assuming just a bit too much. But if you look again at all the repeated uses of the word "deified" on that entire page, along with all the other related discussion attributed to Sanch. there, it is rather clearly stated that the society to which the document refers (ie. the early Phoenicians) are depicted as making their own notable inventors into deities (that is declaring them to be objects of worship), usually soon after their deaths. Regards, Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 02:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry was trying to sneek this in on the end of last but as I pressed save, your text came up.
anyway this is from chapter 9 "'But with a view to clearness hereafter, and the determination of particulars, it is necessary to state distinctly beforehand that the most ancient of the barbarians, and especially the Phoenicians and Egyptians, from whom the rest of mankind received their traditions, regarded as the greatest gods those who had discovered the necessaries of life, or in some way done good to the nations. Esteeming these as benefactors and authors of many blessings, they worshipped them also as gods after their death This is a direct quote from Philo.
As per your ref to Hesoid - you do realise that it is Philo who is refering to him not San. "Philo having explained these points in his preface, next begins his interpretation of Sanchuniathon by setting forth the theology of the Phoenicians"" Dlm4473 ( talk) 03:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
"As a result of his association and virtuous Golden Age, Cronus was..." Should read "As a result of his association with the virtuous Golden age..." --Can't fix it because its protected because people probably put things like "He eats his babies lol." *checks revision history* Jacobe11 ( talk) 05:25, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
What does this mean? What source is being drawn on for this identification?-- Wetman ( talk) 09:41, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm not all up on wiki things, so pardon my crappy doings and such, but I think this might also constitute vandalism:
*Rhea secretly gave birth to Zeus in Crete, and handed Cronus a stone wrapped in swaddling clothes, also known as the Omphalos Stone, which he promptly devoured, thinking that it was his dick.
I don't see how he thought it was... anyone's dick. I lol'd a little, but uh. I don't think that's legitimate at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.25.207.229 ( talk) 22:17, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
The article states that Cronus disgorged a goat after the stone that substituted for Zeus. What goat is this? Is it a reference to the alternative story that Rhea tricked Cronus into eating an animal instead of Poseidon? Skaysee ( talk) 15:55, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
In Plato's Cratylus it was given the etymology from χρόνος ( Chronos - meaning time) which, together with Rhea (ρείν, "flow") mean a "current" that moves and does not remain still (see Plato, Cratylus 402b). For Plato in Cratylus, 402b wrote:
There is a brief description in the article of Rhea. Yet, User:Til Eulenspiegel keeps on removing Plato's Cratylus reference from this article. Does anyone else feel that Plato's account should be ignored? -- Odysses (₪) 23:17, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
There is too much emphasis in this article which is trying to equate this greek myth with a, supposedly, older hebrew myth. I removed the 'Name' section because it adds little to this and is basically restated later anyway. Why is the article talking about El at all? What about the Egyptian equivalents? The Persian?... I'm getting fed up of this. 86.135.244.44 ( talk) 14:52, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
When you remove something you should at least Copy/Paste what you remove here, the information that was in the name section was very important to certain things I'm trying to study and now I have no place to find that information. The etymology of a deity's name is very important, and now Kronos is the one without one.
1. The section named "Name and comparative mythology" is very hard and unpleasant to read. It's way too technical. I believe it should be modified.
2. The sentence "Cronus, joined by the Titans, makes war against and eventually defeats his brother Jupiter" is weird. Cronus is the father of Jupiter/Zeus. Something is wrong with the sentence.
3. "Cronus is again mentioned in the Sibylline Oracles, particularly book three, which makes Cronus, 'Titan' and Iapetus, the three sons of Uranus and Gaia, each to receive a third division of the Earth, and Cronus is made king over all." 'Titan' was not a son of Uranus. There is no such god. Something must be wrong with the sentence. The god is probably a Titan.
ICE77 ( talk) 08:24, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
A. "In an alternate version of this myth, a more benevolent Cronus overthrew the wicked serpentine Titan Ophion. In doing so, he released the world from bondage and for a time ruled it justly."
A source is needed. Who said this?
B. "Rhea kept Zeus hidden in a cave on Mount Ida, Crete. According to some versions of the story, he was then raised by a goat named Amalthea, while a company of Kouretes, armored male dancers, shouted and clapped their hands to make enough noise to mask the baby's cries from Cronus. Other versions of the myth have Zeus raised by the nymph Adamanthea, who hid Zeus by dangling him by a rope from a tree so that he was suspended between the earth, the sea, and the sky, all of which were ruled by his father, Cronus. Still other versions of the tale say that Zeus was raised by his grandmother, Gaia."
Would it be possible to point out the 3 sources for the 3 versions above?
C. "Once he had grown up, Zeus used an emetic given to him by Gaia to force Cronus to disgorge the contents of his stomach in reverse order: first the stone, which was set down at Pytho under the glens of Mount Parnassus to be a sign to mortal men, then the goat, and then his two brothers and three sisters. In other versions of the tale, Metis gave Cronus an emetic to force him to disgorge the children, or Zeus cut Cronus' stomach open."
Who wrote which version?
D. "In another version, the Titans released the Cyclopes from Tartarus, and Cronus was awarded the kingship among them, beginning a Golden Age."
Who wrote this?
E. "Libyan account related by Diodorus Siculus"
Is Titea meant to be Gaia? Is Jupiter brother of Saturn as Zeus brother of Cronus?
ICE77 ( talk) 20:59, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
I have removed "I was here! " added by 24.106.176.94 in neo-paganism.
He also added "Cronus ate his children so they wouldn't overthrow him." in In popular culture - I don't know if that is correct.
-- Beardo 04:21, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
This sentence, surprisingly, is incomplete!
"... establishing that the "castration" of the heavens by means of a sickle as part of a creation myth..." ... is what? or does what?
This sentence has become a little scrambled, through repeated edits, no doubt. Does anyone know its original intent? Heavenlyblue ( talk) 00:28, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
I wonder why a Semitic origin has been invoked for the meaning of horn. According to my dicitionary it is related to krainoo I am lord and kreioon sovereign. Krainoo is in turn related to a theme krn from which kranos helm and Latin cornu horn. From IE root kr. Aldrasto11 ( talk) 14:15, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Thought Uranus was the Roman name for Ouranos, and since we art talking about Greek Gods - shouldn't it be Ouranos?
166.250.2.35 ( talk) 22:03, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Where's the evidence that this is the case? These links suggest they are the same, or at least that one was clearly derived from the the other: [2], [3].
"Khronos was essentially a cosmological version of Kronos who appears in the Orphic cosmogonies. The Orphics later integrated him with Phanes." Nathan J. Yoder 01:04, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I have to agree Chronos (Kronos) and Chronus must be the same. The story of Chronus is an allegory for the affect of time on humanity itself. Chronus consumes all of his children, the same way father time eventually consumes all men. This is the origin of the ancient riddle "Who is the father who eats all of his children?" Answer: "Father time", or as the Ancient Greeks would have answered Chronus certainly meaning Zeus' father and referencing the Hellenistic creation myth. I think a problem for many modern scholars is the lack of continuity between the description of the early Chronus or Chronos that is seen as vulgar, dim witted and mean, were as later Chronos comes to be a more wise and fatherly figure. Much like the lack of continuity in the Hebrew God of the Old testament and the New testament this was not much of an issue for ancient writers. Simply read the Iliad and you will understand what I mean even more clearly as warriors who had died many pages previous appear again in battle, and other characters act entirely uncharacteristic of previous characterizations. This did not bother Homer or his listeners. Another explanation could be that just like fathers of men Father Time starts out as a rash and unwise father, but as time goes on he becomes more and more wise. Anyone who was born to a young man can relate to this. More proof of Chronos and Chronus being the same person is the Latin God Saturn who was identified both as Jupiter's father and Father time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.146.96.164 ( talk) 08:48, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
"Kronos" Κρόνος (Latin "Cronos" or "Cronus") ≠ "Khronos" χρόνος (would be written "chronos" in Latin). The words are as different as English "Pat" and "fat". Greek kappa Κκ and chi Χχ are different letters representing different sounds.
Nathan J. Yoder's
Encyclopædia Britannica link (it requires a registration), the article on Cronus (Greek god), is quite short (253 words) and says nothing about χρόνος, which means "time".
His other citation ascribes the identification of Kronos with personified Time to the
Orphics, but the identity is debated in modern analysis. --
Thnidu (
talk)
02:30, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
I don't see why they seemed "silly" here as in the Greek religion Kronos (Cronus) was actually succeeded by Zeus as "King of the Gods" and by Atlas as "Leader of the Titans" though for most people I'd say that finding this information in the body of the text would make these boxes redundant we must adhere WP:READER and I'd argue that these boxes would simplify the line of succession for "lazy readers" and "novice readers on the subject". Sincerely, -- 86.81.201.94 ( talk) 20:29, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
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1. Cronus was forced into Tartarus and the majority of Titans show their abode as Tartarus in the box on the top right of the page. Cronus should have "Tartarus (Homer) or Cave of Nyx (Orphic poems)".
2. "(Cronus also fathered Chiron, by Philyra)."
This information is not really relevant to the story before it. I think it should not be there. I removed it.
3. The mythology section calls for "versions" 6 times and for "texts" 1 time. The article should explicitly refer to some sources.
4. Kumarbi is mentioned at the end of the antiquity section. If I understand correctly, it is a Mesopotamian god (something to add to the text).
ICE77 ( talk) 06:03, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
This article starts with "Not to be confused with Chronos, the personification of time" and mentions that "During antiquity, Cronus was occasionally interpreted as Chronos, the personification of time."
However, in the "Name and comparative mythology > Antiquity" section, there are only examples of people (Plutarch, Cicero, Proclus, etc) who DO combine Kronus/Chronos. There's no indication of why people would consider them separate, or any mention of ancient sources that indicated they were distinct deities. This gives the impression of an ancient consensus that Kronus and Chronos were the same, since there seems to be no reason to believe otherwise.
I've heard tons of people insist that Kronus and Chronos are different, but I don't know what sources they get that from. Someone more familiar with those sources should add some to this section, as a counter-point to the Plutarch/Cicero/Proclus argument combining them. 75.84.244.34 ( talk) 20:44, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. Treetoes023 ( talk) 00:02, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
– The proper transliteration of Κρόνος is Kronos, not Cronus; per WP:NCGREEK. This article is the primary topic for Kronos so the move shouldn't be a problem. Treetoes023 ( talk) 18:41, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
Naturalness – The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles.Interesting question - what are most readers most likely to search for or editors to link to?