![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 |
Ive said it before and Ill say it again, the above sections are very problematical. Rather than utilizing the nuanced and measured theories that are abundant nowadays, some editors keep insisting on passing off whimsical word-play etymologies as serious work, and even credible Croat scholars dismiss it. Way too much focus on the Tanais inscription, which in all likelihood has absolutely nothing to do with Croats. The Iranic and Gothic theories deserve nothing but passing mention, an interesting but unlikely possibility at most, and nationalistic pseudo-scholarship at worst. Where are the works of Klaic, Magetic, Dzino, etc ?? I plan to changIne this in the near future to make the introductory few segments of this article more credible Slovenski Volk ( talk) 07:25, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
The ethonym “Croat” is first attested during the 9th century CE [1], in the charter of Duke Trpimir; and indeed begins to be widely attested throughout central and eastern Europe during the 9th and 10th centuries. [2] Much uncertainty revolves around the exact circumstances of their appearance given the scarcity of literary sources during the 7th and 8th century “Dark Ages”.
Traditionally, scholarship has placed the arrival of the Croats in the 7th century, primarily on the basis of the De Administrando Imperio. As such, the arrival of the Croats was seen as a second wave of Slavic migrations, which liberated Dalmatia from Avar hegemony. However, as early as the 1970s, scholars questioned the reliability of Porphyrogenitus’ work, written as it was in the 10th century. [3] Rather than being an accurate historical account, the DAI more accurately reflects the political situation during the 10th century. It mainly served as Byzantine propaganda praising Emperor Heraclius for repopulating the Balkans (previously devastated by the Avars) with Croats (and Serbs), who were seen by the Byzantines as tributary peoples living on what had always been 'Roman land'. [4]
Scholars have often hypothesized the name Croat (Hrvat) to be Iranian, thus suggesting that the Croats were actually a Sarmatian tribe from the Pontic region who were part of a larger movement of Slavs toward the Adriatic. The major basis for this connection was the perceived similarity between Croat and inscriptions from the Tanais dated to the 2nd and 3rd centuries CE, mentioning the name Horouthos. However, "it is difficult, if not impossible to connect these names". Whether one accepts the etymological connection or not, anthropological theories suggest that ethnic groups are not static, ancient nations but are perpetually changing. This "seriously undermines any notion of an ‘Iranian component’ in the construction of early medieval Croat identity.” [5] Similar arguments have been made for an alleged Gothic-Croat link. Whilst there is indeed evidence of population continuity between Gothic and Croat times in parts of Dalmatia, the idea of a Gothic origin of Croats was more rooted in the political aspirations of the Croatian NDH party than historical reality. [6]
Contemporary scholarship views the rise of "Croats" as a local, Dalmatian response to the demise of the Avar khanate and the encroachment of Frankish and Byzantine Empires into northern Dalmatia. [7] They appear to have been based around Nin, down to the Cetina and south of Liburnia. Here, concentrations of the so-called "Old Croat culture' abound, marked by some very wealthy warrior burials dating to the 9th century CE. [8] Yet other, distinct polities also existed nearby, such as the Guduscans (based in Liburnia), the Narentines (around the Cetina and Neretva) and the Sorabi (Serbs) who ruled some other parts of “Dalmatia”. [9] Also prominent in the territory of future Croatia was the polity of Prince Liutevid, who ruled the territories between the Drava and Sava (“Pannonia Inferior”), centred from his fort at Sisak. Although Duke Liutevid and his people are commonly seen as a “Pannonian Croats”, “there is no evidence that they had a sense of Croat identity”. Rather, he is referred to as dux Pannoniae Inferioris, or simply a Slav, by contemporary sources. [10] However, soon, the Croats became the dominant local power in northern Dalmatia, absorbing Liburnia and expanding their name by conquest and prestige. Whilst always remaining independent, the Naretines at times came under the sway of later Croatian Kings. Although the the Chronicle of the Priest Duklja has been dismissed as an unreliable record, the mentioned "Red Croatia" suggests that Croatian clans and families might have settled as far south as Duklja/ Zeta. [11]
What happened in the 6th to 9th centuries, between the demise of Roman rule in Dalmatia and the appearance of new polities, is less clear. Archaeological evidence suggests population continuity in coastal Dalmatia and Istria. In contrast, much of the Dinaric hinterland appears to have been abandoned in the early 7th century. In much of the latter region, there is a hiatus of almost a century. The place of origin and timing of the re-colonization remains controversial, however, all available evidence points to the nearby Danubian and Carpathian regions rather than some distant "White Croat" homeland in Poland or Ukraine. [12]
Slovenski Volk (
talk)
10:15, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Good riddence ! According to you, credible, peer-reviewed sources are to be disregarded because they are all 'brain-washed', 'confused' and 'philosophers'; rather we should take you OR verbotenus. If you really are a 'lecturer", then I feel sorry for your students. Slovenski Volk ( talk) 00:36, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
This IP above is completely right. Instead of joining your "discussion", I'm offering a summary of A. Mayorov, Velikaya Horvatia (University of St. Petersburg, 2006):
"The permanent contacts with the Iranian-speaking peoples, mostly Sarmathians, were the important feature of the ethnogenesis and the early history of the Slavs in the region near the East Carpathians during the period of their coexistence for several centuries.
The appearance of the ancient tribal union of the Croats with the name of probably Iranian origin had become one of the results of ethnical and cultural synthesis of the Slavs and the Iranians. The Slavs of the Upper Dniester having become the part of the Croatian tribal group inhabited the new territories in Central Europe and the Balkans during the process of the Great Slavonic settlement.
De administrando imperio by Constantine the Porphyrogenitus is the first written test containing the information on the origin and the history of Croats’ settling, Great and White Croatias. Both the names, “Great” and “White Croatia”, correspond to the traditional geographical nomination known to the contemporary Science. Decoding of the symbols of the colour in the names of the peoples and the lands is based mostly on the analogies in the Sino-Tibetan, Iranian, Turkic and Mongolian languages, while the closest parallels for the names with the adjective great are found in the European toponymy. And still, the simultaneous use of several symbolical names to produce the ethnical and geographical names must be accepted as artificial one. The case of Constantine the Porphyrogenitus’ Great and White Croatia (“Great Croatia, called White...”) is explained by the intention to agree the contradiction between different, sometimes competitive, versions of the history of the Croats.
The name “Great Croatia” origins in the common Slavonic and European tradition connecting the meanings great and old to indicate the territory the people had lived before at, pre-motherland, sometimes having been already abandoned and kept only in memory.
Byzantine emperor’s information on the early Croatian history corresponds to and concerns the meaning of “Great Croatia” as the territory of pre-motherland of the Croatian people the following migrating resulted in new names, that of the land — “White Croatia”, and that of the people “White Croats”, took place from. The ideas of Great and White Croatia differ not only as the historical and typo- logical ones, they do not mean the same geographical place. This conclusion is based on the direct indications of Constantine himself compared with the other sources. If one can surely put White Croatia with its White Croats on the Upper Elbe and the Upper Vistula, the land of Great Croatia, the historical pre-motherland for the Croats must be looked for to the East of the Carpathians and may be in Transcarpathia. The ancient Croats cannot be connected with tribes of the Ants’ group, representatives of the Penkovo archaeological culture only. The region the Croats lived in covers the Sclavenian area of the Prague-Corchak archaeological culture including the Smaller Poland. This testifies the Croatian union having formed in the epoch preceding the first reliable Slavonic archaeological cultures — in the Chemyachovo time.
The earliest written evidence of the name connected directly with the ethnonym “Croats” in the form of the anthroponym “Croat” is seen in the inscriptions dated back to the 1-2 c. found in the ancient Greek city of Tanais in the mouth of the Don. The anthroponym “Croat”, probably, belonged to the members of the Alanian-Sarmathian tribe living in this region. Their leaders had certain position in the town community of Tanais. The fact, that Croats belonged to the Sarmathian-speaking environment is shown by the morphological similarity of the names: Sarmatae and Croats (slav. horvatU, Lat. Chroates). Still there are no traces of the Croats living to the West of the Don river in the first centuries A. D. This situation could have changed only in the process of the Great Migration. The ethnonym Croates seems to be slavonized, as well as its first bearers, after the tremendous ethnic processes had taken place during the Huns’ invasion. In all probability, the Croats’ appearance in Central Europe and in the Balkans was connected with the Avars’ invasion. According to the archaeological and linguistic data the Croats had been already slavonized that time. It means that the Slavs had taken the name of Croats earlier. Since the greater part of the Alans who took part in the Huns’ conquest broke off and moved to the West together with the Goths and other German tribes in the beginning of the 5th c., the proposed contacts of the Alans and the Slavs of South-Westem Europe and the Carpathian region particularly could have taken place in the beginning of the Huns expansion only, therefore they could not be long.
The suggestion that the Slavs’ adoption of the Iranian name Croats (horvatU) resulted not from the process of the multiethnical synthesis but from the intensive political interaction having influenced strongly the Slavonic peoples in the turbulent epoch of the Great Migration seems the most probable.
The important role played by the Alans in the Slavic wars with the Goths and the overthrowing of their power resulted in the spreading of the name Croats among the Dniester Slavs. Having become the allies of the Huns, the Alans-Tanaites appeared the main force of their army acting against the Goths in the south of Eastern Europe. The decisive battle of the river Erax (localized in the basin of the Dniester) where the Goths were finally defeated by the joined Slavs and Alans acting as the part of the Huns’ army and forced out off Eastern Europe was undoubtedly the tuming-point in the ancient Slavic history.
It is naturally to propose the Slavic inhabitants of the Dniester-Carpathian region to be strongly influenced just the same as the Slavs of the Ants group by the Alans and be governed by the chiefs of the Alans who apparently represented the Huns’ authority. Just as the Ants — the union of the Alans and the Slavs — had formed on the ground of the prolonged ethnic synthesis of the Slavs and the Iranians so did the Croatian group form on the ground of the previous centuries-long interaction of the Slavs and the Sarmathians in the Dniester region.
The Alanian Croats must have ruled the Dniester Slavic lands for some time. They could have married some of the local Slavic chiefs to make their authority legal. The name Croats gained among the Slavs the sacral importance since it was connected with the victory over the Goths and their yoke shaken off.
The Upper Dniester region together with the nearby territories between the Dniester and the Pruth are considered to be the primary territory the ancient Slavic tribal formation appeared at. Afterwards it gradually extended and covered both sides of the Carpathians. For example the Croats inhabited the upper current of the Tyssa river behind the Carpathians. In the last quarter of the 4th — middle of the 5th cc. the Croats probably reached the Upper Vistula and settled in Smaller Poland (however, it could have happened later). Still the region of the Upper Vistula (unlike the territories to the East of the Carpathians) cannot be the initial territory of the Croatian ethnogenesis — the pre- motherland of the Croats, afterwards called “Great Croatia”. The Slavonic population of Smaller Poland identified themselves as White, i. e. West Croats. Only that very part of the Croatian ethnos that had appeared as a result of occupying new territories could bear such a name. The appearance of the tribal union of the ancient Slavs in the Carpathian region who took afterwards the name of Croats, could be dated back to the last quarter of the 4th — middle of the 5th cc.
This book is capital work about the early Croatian history, it is based on many studies in Russia and Ukraine, Mayorov is archaeologist but his synthesis is based on multidisciplinary works of many authors, including his own. Knowing how Wikipedia works, I doubt anyone will take it into consideration, whatever... 89.201.156.205 ( talk) 14:47, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Now let's see what a constructive, nuanced and critical approach to the question of "White Croatia" and the ethonym "Hrvat" suggests (for anyone interested):
Jagic´’s ideas strongly influenced later scholar-ship and his theory was partially re-proposed by John Bagnell Bury, who however thought that White Croatia, despite being an imaginary land,found its origins in ancient Croatian tribal sagas that the emperorsimply collected and divulgated
Croats as an ethnic group formed at the edges of the Avar kingdom, anticipating Walter Pohl, who, developing an intu-ition of Otto Kronsteiner’s, suggested that the name Hrvat should beused of warrior groups settled by the Avars at the limits of their empireand who developed in an ethnic group only in the aftermath of the Carolingian conquest of Avaria. The idea was recently followed by Patrick Geary, who pointed out how this vision could explain the spread of the name without recourse to the migration model.
Moreover, Huw Evans highlighted the many logistical issues arising from a long-distance migration (assuming that White Croatia was located in Galicia), and demonstrated the absence of traces of seventh-century moves from central Europe in the so-called Starohrvatska Kultura
Despite those highly influential contributions, the idea of a northern fatherland covered with snow (which in some later historiography was destined to become merely one stage of a longer march beginning on the shores of the Black Sea or as far as eastern Iran) and of the long march on the quest for a ‘place in the sun’ survived, offering an ideological strength superior to all the other alternatives, finding its place in the romantic paradigm and being almost universally accepted in non-scholarly environments
Milo Barada suggested that the Croats were a group formed at the edges of the Avar empire and Walter Pohl proposed the Croats to be border guards of the Avar empire, developing in an ethnic group only in the ninth century. I suggest that we should date this process even later. Constantine wrote in the DAI about a Croatian victory against the Bulgars: does this event represent the formation of a new elite on the Dalmatian edges of the Bulgar kingdom? Perhaps the confrontation with the Bulgars was the first attestation of this group of men who were called Hrvati by their neighbours, or who chose the name for themselves; a prestigious name also in other areas of central and eastern Europe
In conclusion, we can assert that the Croatian migration did not take place, but that Constantine Porphyrogenitus created it relying on the literary models traditionally applied to describe the Landnahme of Scythian Barbarians. What instead happened is that, following their rise in the military and political context of the Balkans, new elites took a visibleposition in Dalmatia and, as recorded in the tenth century, were given the name Croats, a name which was also found in other areas of central and eastern Europe. Although it is still very difficult to explain how names recur in sources independent of one another and in very distant places,for reasons still unknown to us it is possible that the Dalmatian Croats referred to other groups who shared their name, as Belocroats.
The wide spread of the place name Hrvat could suggest its derivation from geographical characteristics, but the fact that we have no satisfactory etymology in different linguistic groups makes every hypothesis very speculative. The name’s meaning is however unimportant, which is sadly ironic if we consider that the Croatian name was the basis of the most nationalist and racist theories about the Croatian people and their history. What we can say is that the ethnonym is attested between the ninth and tenth centuries in many areas of central and eastern Europe,together with others which may be found both north and south of the Carpathians in slightly different forms (Serbs/Sorbs, Abrodits/Obrodits). In reality there is no reason to suppose that those different attestations are evidence of the division of unique peoples, neither is theRe any way to prove that the people described with the same name shared something more than the name itself.@ Florian Blaschke: If we accept cultural assimilation, both Iranic and Slavic groups are related to each other. Is it possible that all Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans, and the other Iranics extincted completely? Or they assimilated into other groups like Slavs? Both Iranic and Slavic are large ethno-linguistic groups, so close contacts and relations between some of them are possible. I don't say Iranian theory is strong, but there is no point to remove it or call it as BS. It's better to clarify it. I saw Theories on the origin of Croats and its talk page. It seems that Iranian theory have a considerable number of supporters/fans in Balkan (according to anonymous users' comments). So if WP doesn't provide clear and enough info about that theory, they will use other sources. A clear and detailed "Iranian theory" section is a good solution. -- Zyma ( talk) 17:44, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
The statement "Contemporary scholarship views the rise of "Croats" as an autochthonous, Dalmatian response etc...." is written in the context of the further article sections about the creation of early Croatian principality, but do not understand how much is related to the actual theme of the section "Croatian ethnogenesis"? The statement claim provides a good counterbalance of a fairly well written and NPOV text, but as far I am concerned, and as is stated in the newly re-written article Origin hypotheses of the Croats, the autochthonous idea is not modern scholarship view about the early Croats ethnogenesis. The statement claim is cited from unknown page of [ a source] where I could not find such a claim, indicating to Original research. Yes, the source talks about the the autochthonous (Slavs etc.) and Frankish political activites against Avars and formation of the early principality, but in the early 9th century, and nothing about Croatian ethnogenesis. Could someone explain the claim?-- Crovata ( talk) 16:44, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Why were my edits reverted? -- Čeha ( razgovor) 21:12, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Please stop edit warring and present your problems with the article here. That is how Wikipedia works. Tnx. -- Tuvixer ( talk) 00:03, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 4 external links on
Croats. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 22:21, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
I invite everybody to post their opinions at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups#The_necessity_of_galleries_of_personalities_in_the_infoboxes Hahun ( talk) 11:39, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
There are plenty of sources in which states that in Turkey live circa 10 million people of Croatian descendants. The fact is that there live millions of descendants of Croats. I found plenty of web pages on which states that approximately 10 million Croatian people live in Turkey. The sources are not just Croatian, there are also some Bosnian and even Serbian articles about that. Here are some of them:
Same approximations have articles about French people, or Italian people. And both of these two articles have no sources, you have at least 15 sources about Croats in Turkey.
Article about Croats must have that information, because that is the fact, and articles about other nations have approximate number of their descendants. -- BrunoMed ( talk) 14:14, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
For editors interested, there's an RfC currently being held: Should sections on genetics be removed from pages on ethnic groups?. Cheers! -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 01:51, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
It should either be removed or updated. The information is over 10 years old and quite dated now since new genetic sequencing tools have been used.-- 63.145.59.74 ( talk) 20:55, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
^Agreed. The LGM Theory has been scientifically debunked. Can a certified geneticist revise this?-- 130.212.79.197 ( talk) 00:00, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
This genetics section is really bad. It's all from 2003 back when population history was inferred from Y-chromosomes. If no one wants to rewrite it based on current science, it should be removed. It's better not to have a genetic section than to present false information. People reading this might not know about recent advances in ancient dna. 2600:1702:890:73F0:D31:BFAA:E601:A367 ( talk) 17:20, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
Let's best continue the discussion here: Before adopting Pan-Slavism Broz initially identified as a Croat, per refs 20-22 in his article, so certainly it makes sense to acknowledge that. Secondly, while he was of both Croatian and Slovenian origin, the Croatian part is what's relevant here as the article is about -- Croats. Besides, one doesn't need to have a 100% homogenous origin to identify as part of an ethnicity. Thirdly, please remain WP:CIVIL and don't call other editors' good faith and informed contributions "mind-boggling", "dubious", etc. Daß Wölf 05:13, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
It is currently being proposed that Category:Slavic countries and territories be deleted. This article is related to that category. The relevant discussion is located at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 January 8#Countries and territories by language family. The discussion would benefit from input from editors with a knowledge of and interest in Croats. Krakkos ( talk) 11:16, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
The Tito article says he is slovene-croat (but himself considers ethnic Yugoslav - or south slavic), so i recomend to put in the description that he is slovene-croat, or remove the image John L. Booth ( talk) 21:51, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 |
Ive said it before and Ill say it again, the above sections are very problematical. Rather than utilizing the nuanced and measured theories that are abundant nowadays, some editors keep insisting on passing off whimsical word-play etymologies as serious work, and even credible Croat scholars dismiss it. Way too much focus on the Tanais inscription, which in all likelihood has absolutely nothing to do with Croats. The Iranic and Gothic theories deserve nothing but passing mention, an interesting but unlikely possibility at most, and nationalistic pseudo-scholarship at worst. Where are the works of Klaic, Magetic, Dzino, etc ?? I plan to changIne this in the near future to make the introductory few segments of this article more credible Slovenski Volk ( talk) 07:25, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
The ethonym “Croat” is first attested during the 9th century CE [1], in the charter of Duke Trpimir; and indeed begins to be widely attested throughout central and eastern Europe during the 9th and 10th centuries. [2] Much uncertainty revolves around the exact circumstances of their appearance given the scarcity of literary sources during the 7th and 8th century “Dark Ages”.
Traditionally, scholarship has placed the arrival of the Croats in the 7th century, primarily on the basis of the De Administrando Imperio. As such, the arrival of the Croats was seen as a second wave of Slavic migrations, which liberated Dalmatia from Avar hegemony. However, as early as the 1970s, scholars questioned the reliability of Porphyrogenitus’ work, written as it was in the 10th century. [3] Rather than being an accurate historical account, the DAI more accurately reflects the political situation during the 10th century. It mainly served as Byzantine propaganda praising Emperor Heraclius for repopulating the Balkans (previously devastated by the Avars) with Croats (and Serbs), who were seen by the Byzantines as tributary peoples living on what had always been 'Roman land'. [4]
Scholars have often hypothesized the name Croat (Hrvat) to be Iranian, thus suggesting that the Croats were actually a Sarmatian tribe from the Pontic region who were part of a larger movement of Slavs toward the Adriatic. The major basis for this connection was the perceived similarity between Croat and inscriptions from the Tanais dated to the 2nd and 3rd centuries CE, mentioning the name Horouthos. However, "it is difficult, if not impossible to connect these names". Whether one accepts the etymological connection or not, anthropological theories suggest that ethnic groups are not static, ancient nations but are perpetually changing. This "seriously undermines any notion of an ‘Iranian component’ in the construction of early medieval Croat identity.” [5] Similar arguments have been made for an alleged Gothic-Croat link. Whilst there is indeed evidence of population continuity between Gothic and Croat times in parts of Dalmatia, the idea of a Gothic origin of Croats was more rooted in the political aspirations of the Croatian NDH party than historical reality. [6]
Contemporary scholarship views the rise of "Croats" as a local, Dalmatian response to the demise of the Avar khanate and the encroachment of Frankish and Byzantine Empires into northern Dalmatia. [7] They appear to have been based around Nin, down to the Cetina and south of Liburnia. Here, concentrations of the so-called "Old Croat culture' abound, marked by some very wealthy warrior burials dating to the 9th century CE. [8] Yet other, distinct polities also existed nearby, such as the Guduscans (based in Liburnia), the Narentines (around the Cetina and Neretva) and the Sorabi (Serbs) who ruled some other parts of “Dalmatia”. [9] Also prominent in the territory of future Croatia was the polity of Prince Liutevid, who ruled the territories between the Drava and Sava (“Pannonia Inferior”), centred from his fort at Sisak. Although Duke Liutevid and his people are commonly seen as a “Pannonian Croats”, “there is no evidence that they had a sense of Croat identity”. Rather, he is referred to as dux Pannoniae Inferioris, or simply a Slav, by contemporary sources. [10] However, soon, the Croats became the dominant local power in northern Dalmatia, absorbing Liburnia and expanding their name by conquest and prestige. Whilst always remaining independent, the Naretines at times came under the sway of later Croatian Kings. Although the the Chronicle of the Priest Duklja has been dismissed as an unreliable record, the mentioned "Red Croatia" suggests that Croatian clans and families might have settled as far south as Duklja/ Zeta. [11]
What happened in the 6th to 9th centuries, between the demise of Roman rule in Dalmatia and the appearance of new polities, is less clear. Archaeological evidence suggests population continuity in coastal Dalmatia and Istria. In contrast, much of the Dinaric hinterland appears to have been abandoned in the early 7th century. In much of the latter region, there is a hiatus of almost a century. The place of origin and timing of the re-colonization remains controversial, however, all available evidence points to the nearby Danubian and Carpathian regions rather than some distant "White Croat" homeland in Poland or Ukraine. [12]
Slovenski Volk (
talk)
10:15, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Good riddence ! According to you, credible, peer-reviewed sources are to be disregarded because they are all 'brain-washed', 'confused' and 'philosophers'; rather we should take you OR verbotenus. If you really are a 'lecturer", then I feel sorry for your students. Slovenski Volk ( talk) 00:36, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
This IP above is completely right. Instead of joining your "discussion", I'm offering a summary of A. Mayorov, Velikaya Horvatia (University of St. Petersburg, 2006):
"The permanent contacts with the Iranian-speaking peoples, mostly Sarmathians, were the important feature of the ethnogenesis and the early history of the Slavs in the region near the East Carpathians during the period of their coexistence for several centuries.
The appearance of the ancient tribal union of the Croats with the name of probably Iranian origin had become one of the results of ethnical and cultural synthesis of the Slavs and the Iranians. The Slavs of the Upper Dniester having become the part of the Croatian tribal group inhabited the new territories in Central Europe and the Balkans during the process of the Great Slavonic settlement.
De administrando imperio by Constantine the Porphyrogenitus is the first written test containing the information on the origin and the history of Croats’ settling, Great and White Croatias. Both the names, “Great” and “White Croatia”, correspond to the traditional geographical nomination known to the contemporary Science. Decoding of the symbols of the colour in the names of the peoples and the lands is based mostly on the analogies in the Sino-Tibetan, Iranian, Turkic and Mongolian languages, while the closest parallels for the names with the adjective great are found in the European toponymy. And still, the simultaneous use of several symbolical names to produce the ethnical and geographical names must be accepted as artificial one. The case of Constantine the Porphyrogenitus’ Great and White Croatia (“Great Croatia, called White...”) is explained by the intention to agree the contradiction between different, sometimes competitive, versions of the history of the Croats.
The name “Great Croatia” origins in the common Slavonic and European tradition connecting the meanings great and old to indicate the territory the people had lived before at, pre-motherland, sometimes having been already abandoned and kept only in memory.
Byzantine emperor’s information on the early Croatian history corresponds to and concerns the meaning of “Great Croatia” as the territory of pre-motherland of the Croatian people the following migrating resulted in new names, that of the land — “White Croatia”, and that of the people “White Croats”, took place from. The ideas of Great and White Croatia differ not only as the historical and typo- logical ones, they do not mean the same geographical place. This conclusion is based on the direct indications of Constantine himself compared with the other sources. If one can surely put White Croatia with its White Croats on the Upper Elbe and the Upper Vistula, the land of Great Croatia, the historical pre-motherland for the Croats must be looked for to the East of the Carpathians and may be in Transcarpathia. The ancient Croats cannot be connected with tribes of the Ants’ group, representatives of the Penkovo archaeological culture only. The region the Croats lived in covers the Sclavenian area of the Prague-Corchak archaeological culture including the Smaller Poland. This testifies the Croatian union having formed in the epoch preceding the first reliable Slavonic archaeological cultures — in the Chemyachovo time.
The earliest written evidence of the name connected directly with the ethnonym “Croats” in the form of the anthroponym “Croat” is seen in the inscriptions dated back to the 1-2 c. found in the ancient Greek city of Tanais in the mouth of the Don. The anthroponym “Croat”, probably, belonged to the members of the Alanian-Sarmathian tribe living in this region. Their leaders had certain position in the town community of Tanais. The fact, that Croats belonged to the Sarmathian-speaking environment is shown by the morphological similarity of the names: Sarmatae and Croats (slav. horvatU, Lat. Chroates). Still there are no traces of the Croats living to the West of the Don river in the first centuries A. D. This situation could have changed only in the process of the Great Migration. The ethnonym Croates seems to be slavonized, as well as its first bearers, after the tremendous ethnic processes had taken place during the Huns’ invasion. In all probability, the Croats’ appearance in Central Europe and in the Balkans was connected with the Avars’ invasion. According to the archaeological and linguistic data the Croats had been already slavonized that time. It means that the Slavs had taken the name of Croats earlier. Since the greater part of the Alans who took part in the Huns’ conquest broke off and moved to the West together with the Goths and other German tribes in the beginning of the 5th c., the proposed contacts of the Alans and the Slavs of South-Westem Europe and the Carpathian region particularly could have taken place in the beginning of the Huns expansion only, therefore they could not be long.
The suggestion that the Slavs’ adoption of the Iranian name Croats (horvatU) resulted not from the process of the multiethnical synthesis but from the intensive political interaction having influenced strongly the Slavonic peoples in the turbulent epoch of the Great Migration seems the most probable.
The important role played by the Alans in the Slavic wars with the Goths and the overthrowing of their power resulted in the spreading of the name Croats among the Dniester Slavs. Having become the allies of the Huns, the Alans-Tanaites appeared the main force of their army acting against the Goths in the south of Eastern Europe. The decisive battle of the river Erax (localized in the basin of the Dniester) where the Goths were finally defeated by the joined Slavs and Alans acting as the part of the Huns’ army and forced out off Eastern Europe was undoubtedly the tuming-point in the ancient Slavic history.
It is naturally to propose the Slavic inhabitants of the Dniester-Carpathian region to be strongly influenced just the same as the Slavs of the Ants group by the Alans and be governed by the chiefs of the Alans who apparently represented the Huns’ authority. Just as the Ants — the union of the Alans and the Slavs — had formed on the ground of the prolonged ethnic synthesis of the Slavs and the Iranians so did the Croatian group form on the ground of the previous centuries-long interaction of the Slavs and the Sarmathians in the Dniester region.
The Alanian Croats must have ruled the Dniester Slavic lands for some time. They could have married some of the local Slavic chiefs to make their authority legal. The name Croats gained among the Slavs the sacral importance since it was connected with the victory over the Goths and their yoke shaken off.
The Upper Dniester region together with the nearby territories between the Dniester and the Pruth are considered to be the primary territory the ancient Slavic tribal formation appeared at. Afterwards it gradually extended and covered both sides of the Carpathians. For example the Croats inhabited the upper current of the Tyssa river behind the Carpathians. In the last quarter of the 4th — middle of the 5th cc. the Croats probably reached the Upper Vistula and settled in Smaller Poland (however, it could have happened later). Still the region of the Upper Vistula (unlike the territories to the East of the Carpathians) cannot be the initial territory of the Croatian ethnogenesis — the pre- motherland of the Croats, afterwards called “Great Croatia”. The Slavonic population of Smaller Poland identified themselves as White, i. e. West Croats. Only that very part of the Croatian ethnos that had appeared as a result of occupying new territories could bear such a name. The appearance of the tribal union of the ancient Slavs in the Carpathian region who took afterwards the name of Croats, could be dated back to the last quarter of the 4th — middle of the 5th cc.
This book is capital work about the early Croatian history, it is based on many studies in Russia and Ukraine, Mayorov is archaeologist but his synthesis is based on multidisciplinary works of many authors, including his own. Knowing how Wikipedia works, I doubt anyone will take it into consideration, whatever... 89.201.156.205 ( talk) 14:47, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Now let's see what a constructive, nuanced and critical approach to the question of "White Croatia" and the ethonym "Hrvat" suggests (for anyone interested):
Jagic´’s ideas strongly influenced later scholar-ship and his theory was partially re-proposed by John Bagnell Bury, who however thought that White Croatia, despite being an imaginary land,found its origins in ancient Croatian tribal sagas that the emperorsimply collected and divulgated
Croats as an ethnic group formed at the edges of the Avar kingdom, anticipating Walter Pohl, who, developing an intu-ition of Otto Kronsteiner’s, suggested that the name Hrvat should beused of warrior groups settled by the Avars at the limits of their empireand who developed in an ethnic group only in the aftermath of the Carolingian conquest of Avaria. The idea was recently followed by Patrick Geary, who pointed out how this vision could explain the spread of the name without recourse to the migration model.
Moreover, Huw Evans highlighted the many logistical issues arising from a long-distance migration (assuming that White Croatia was located in Galicia), and demonstrated the absence of traces of seventh-century moves from central Europe in the so-called Starohrvatska Kultura
Despite those highly influential contributions, the idea of a northern fatherland covered with snow (which in some later historiography was destined to become merely one stage of a longer march beginning on the shores of the Black Sea or as far as eastern Iran) and of the long march on the quest for a ‘place in the sun’ survived, offering an ideological strength superior to all the other alternatives, finding its place in the romantic paradigm and being almost universally accepted in non-scholarly environments
Milo Barada suggested that the Croats were a group formed at the edges of the Avar empire and Walter Pohl proposed the Croats to be border guards of the Avar empire, developing in an ethnic group only in the ninth century. I suggest that we should date this process even later. Constantine wrote in the DAI about a Croatian victory against the Bulgars: does this event represent the formation of a new elite on the Dalmatian edges of the Bulgar kingdom? Perhaps the confrontation with the Bulgars was the first attestation of this group of men who were called Hrvati by their neighbours, or who chose the name for themselves; a prestigious name also in other areas of central and eastern Europe
In conclusion, we can assert that the Croatian migration did not take place, but that Constantine Porphyrogenitus created it relying on the literary models traditionally applied to describe the Landnahme of Scythian Barbarians. What instead happened is that, following their rise in the military and political context of the Balkans, new elites took a visibleposition in Dalmatia and, as recorded in the tenth century, were given the name Croats, a name which was also found in other areas of central and eastern Europe. Although it is still very difficult to explain how names recur in sources independent of one another and in very distant places,for reasons still unknown to us it is possible that the Dalmatian Croats referred to other groups who shared their name, as Belocroats.
The wide spread of the place name Hrvat could suggest its derivation from geographical characteristics, but the fact that we have no satisfactory etymology in different linguistic groups makes every hypothesis very speculative. The name’s meaning is however unimportant, which is sadly ironic if we consider that the Croatian name was the basis of the most nationalist and racist theories about the Croatian people and their history. What we can say is that the ethnonym is attested between the ninth and tenth centuries in many areas of central and eastern Europe,together with others which may be found both north and south of the Carpathians in slightly different forms (Serbs/Sorbs, Abrodits/Obrodits). In reality there is no reason to suppose that those different attestations are evidence of the division of unique peoples, neither is theRe any way to prove that the people described with the same name shared something more than the name itself.@ Florian Blaschke: If we accept cultural assimilation, both Iranic and Slavic groups are related to each other. Is it possible that all Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans, and the other Iranics extincted completely? Or they assimilated into other groups like Slavs? Both Iranic and Slavic are large ethno-linguistic groups, so close contacts and relations between some of them are possible. I don't say Iranian theory is strong, but there is no point to remove it or call it as BS. It's better to clarify it. I saw Theories on the origin of Croats and its talk page. It seems that Iranian theory have a considerable number of supporters/fans in Balkan (according to anonymous users' comments). So if WP doesn't provide clear and enough info about that theory, they will use other sources. A clear and detailed "Iranian theory" section is a good solution. -- Zyma ( talk) 17:44, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
The statement "Contemporary scholarship views the rise of "Croats" as an autochthonous, Dalmatian response etc...." is written in the context of the further article sections about the creation of early Croatian principality, but do not understand how much is related to the actual theme of the section "Croatian ethnogenesis"? The statement claim provides a good counterbalance of a fairly well written and NPOV text, but as far I am concerned, and as is stated in the newly re-written article Origin hypotheses of the Croats, the autochthonous idea is not modern scholarship view about the early Croats ethnogenesis. The statement claim is cited from unknown page of [ a source] where I could not find such a claim, indicating to Original research. Yes, the source talks about the the autochthonous (Slavs etc.) and Frankish political activites against Avars and formation of the early principality, but in the early 9th century, and nothing about Croatian ethnogenesis. Could someone explain the claim?-- Crovata ( talk) 16:44, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Why were my edits reverted? -- Čeha ( razgovor) 21:12, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Please stop edit warring and present your problems with the article here. That is how Wikipedia works. Tnx. -- Tuvixer ( talk) 00:03, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 4 external links on
Croats. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 22:21, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
I invite everybody to post their opinions at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups#The_necessity_of_galleries_of_personalities_in_the_infoboxes Hahun ( talk) 11:39, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
There are plenty of sources in which states that in Turkey live circa 10 million people of Croatian descendants. The fact is that there live millions of descendants of Croats. I found plenty of web pages on which states that approximately 10 million Croatian people live in Turkey. The sources are not just Croatian, there are also some Bosnian and even Serbian articles about that. Here are some of them:
Same approximations have articles about French people, or Italian people. And both of these two articles have no sources, you have at least 15 sources about Croats in Turkey.
Article about Croats must have that information, because that is the fact, and articles about other nations have approximate number of their descendants. -- BrunoMed ( talk) 14:14, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
For editors interested, there's an RfC currently being held: Should sections on genetics be removed from pages on ethnic groups?. Cheers! -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 01:51, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
It should either be removed or updated. The information is over 10 years old and quite dated now since new genetic sequencing tools have been used.-- 63.145.59.74 ( talk) 20:55, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
^Agreed. The LGM Theory has been scientifically debunked. Can a certified geneticist revise this?-- 130.212.79.197 ( talk) 00:00, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
This genetics section is really bad. It's all from 2003 back when population history was inferred from Y-chromosomes. If no one wants to rewrite it based on current science, it should be removed. It's better not to have a genetic section than to present false information. People reading this might not know about recent advances in ancient dna. 2600:1702:890:73F0:D31:BFAA:E601:A367 ( talk) 17:20, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
Let's best continue the discussion here: Before adopting Pan-Slavism Broz initially identified as a Croat, per refs 20-22 in his article, so certainly it makes sense to acknowledge that. Secondly, while he was of both Croatian and Slovenian origin, the Croatian part is what's relevant here as the article is about -- Croats. Besides, one doesn't need to have a 100% homogenous origin to identify as part of an ethnicity. Thirdly, please remain WP:CIVIL and don't call other editors' good faith and informed contributions "mind-boggling", "dubious", etc. Daß Wölf 05:13, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
It is currently being proposed that Category:Slavic countries and territories be deleted. This article is related to that category. The relevant discussion is located at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 January 8#Countries and territories by language family. The discussion would benefit from input from editors with a knowledge of and interest in Croats. Krakkos ( talk) 11:16, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
The Tito article says he is slovene-croat (but himself considers ethnic Yugoslav - or south slavic), so i recomend to put in the description that he is slovene-croat, or remove the image John L. Booth ( talk) 21:51, 3 March 2021 (UTC)