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No need to panic. Freely write to the Herceg Bosna site, info@hercegbosna.org if Mir Harven (mharven@softhome.net) is one of the owners of the site. The answer will be prompt. So much for copyright panic.
Mir Harven
Btw- you can e-mail Herceg Bosna on the Web: just write following the contact link at http://www.hercegbosna.org/eng_index.html
M H
Unfortumately, I must object to your removal of my page on Croatian language and re-instatemt of the one I wouldnt deign to comment on. But I would on your unprofessionalism: as I have said, you will have gotten the answer from Herceg Bosna Website (you set the deadline of 7 days) on copyright issues. So, if you want professional relationship-I expect you to abide by your words.
Mir Harven (mharven@softhome.net)
OK, but, it's WEIRD. The site Herceg Bosna tried to e-mail you with regard that I may use the material on the site freely (in this case for wikipedia). Just- my buddy couldnt locate your address. How then is this biz re copyright cleared ? He sent mail stating he had got the linkhttp://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contributing_FAQ#I_have,_or_can_get,_special_permission_to_copy_an_image_or_article_to_Wikipedia._Is_it_OK_to_do_that? but could not get around.
Mir Harven
Aha, thanx for info. He was lost in a maze of hyperlinx.
Mir Harven
I reverted "Nikola Smolenski" (paraphrased)
1. I'll write here the arguments. 2. I've never seen the arguments of "Nikola Smolenski" 3. If mr. Smolenski's behavior continues without intervention - then, maybe whole biz is not worth the effort.
Mir Harven (mharven@softhome.net )
Well-as for me, I am ready to explain a few things. Here we go (although I doubt that even an interested outsider can force themselves to stay tuned). Also-feel free to delete a portion from Franolic lecture in Cambridge if you're uneasy about copyright:
OK, let's see mr. Nikola Smolenski's alterations of the Croatian language wiki page:
1. he persistently deletes following links:
http://eleaston.com/croatian.html Croatian language resources
and
http://www.hr/darko/etf/et04.html Croatian Cyrillic Script
Before saying anything about these linx, I must stress: it's a sign of obnoxious behavior to delete links on anyone's page. Not bad, not prankish, but purely and simply: disgusting. Now, back to the links:
The first link is essentially a page containing Croatian language links galore.The page belongs to a respectable private company, frequently referenced by other languages pages. And it's not my fault that Croatian language is nicely presented, in the company of Albanian, English, Chinese, Latin, Russian, Franch, Polish,..and *not* Serbian. There are other Croatian language sources pages (at least two with much more links than eleaston), and pretty few Serbian language pages. Do I smell a sense of envy-huh ? Am I to blame for the fact that when I go to amazon, http://www.amazon.com/ and write Croatian language in the search window, I get more than 340 titles. When I type Serbian language, I get less than 40. This *is* childish- but, for an exclusivist nationalist, I'd say: IT HURTS.
The second link, on Croatian Cyrillic Script belongs to the Zagreb University professor Darko Žubrinić who has made fine work in presenting Croatian cultural heritage on the Web. His pages are referenced in many academic and other respectable pages, like: OBSHTEZHITIE http://www.ceu.hu/medstud/ralph/obsht.htm
and Ohio university Slavic page. http://www.slavic.ohio-state.edu/people/yoo/links/slavic/medieval.htm
Now-let's drop unnecessary formalities and say a few frank words: it has been a favorite sport of Serbian scholars, mainly in the 20th century, to misattribute every Cyrillic book written in the areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia and claim it as their cultural heritage. Here, we must pause a minute. Simple
question is- why ? Why would anyone bother to claim that a certain book, possibly a prayer book written before 400 or 500 years, and even without artistic or literary value, belongs to the corpus of Serbian written word-and not Croatian ? Well- the answer is also simple. Wars from 1991 to 1995 in Croatia and
Bosnia and Herzegovina have provided the answer. A provincial imperialism, like Serbian, needed some sort of "historical justification" for contemporary expansionist geopolitical plans. If Bosnian Franciscan writers, who are Croats, and as such belong to Croatian cultural heritage (Divković and
Posilović in the 17th century, Margitić and others in the 18th etc.) had written from ca. 1600 to ca. 1700 mainly in Bosnian-Croat Cyrillic Script (better known as "bosanica" or "bosančica"), and
("cultural-historical") for Serbian expansionism. The same with Bosnian-Croat Cyrillic Script in Dalmatia in 14th century and later. On one hand, Serbian nationalists whine over the imagined "suppression" of Serbian Cyrillic Script in communist Yugoslavia. On the other- they are frightened when they see the affirmation of Croathood of some form of Cyrillic Script, which erodes their current geopolitical wishes.
I know it sounds silly. Why bother about such triflings ? The truth is that Serbian nationalism, based on such fabrications and lies, is not a trifling at all, and its expansionist drive after Croatian and Bosnian lands rests, partially, on distortion of linguistic and philological issues-however extravagant and silly it may seem.
Now to the text of mr. Smolenski. It is, I quote:
"Some Croats believe that their language was supressed in "Serbian-dominated Yugoslavia". While that could be possible during 23 years of Kingdom of Yugoslavia, ruled by Serb kings, nothing could be farther from the truth for 36 years of SFRY, held in totalitarian rule by a Croat Josip Broz Tito, during which Serbian language and its Cyrillic alphabet was systematically opressed (Most notably in the Novi Sad agreement of 1954) and Yugoslavian lexicographical institute (which was creating and publishing official and practicaly the only encyclopedias and dictionaries) was based in Zagreb and operated by Croats. Tito himself was natively speaker of what is known as Kajkavian dialect of Serbo-Croatian language and for more then 40 years of life in Belgrade never learned Serbian accent nor pronounciation."
Let's see:
"Some Croats believe that their language was supressed in "Serbian-dominated Yugoslavia". While that could be possible during 23 years of Kingdom of Yugoslavia, ruled by Serb kings, nothing could be farther from the truth for 36 years of SFRY, held in totalitarian rule by a Croat Josip Broz Tito,"
Rubbish. Tito was a Croat, but not a *Croatian* dictator. He was a bolshevik, communist authoritarian leader who deftly managed to hold the power with the combination of charismatic leadership (in a "soft" totalitarian state SFRJ), balancing inter-ethnic animosities and wielding Yugoslav People's Army- essentially his own, private weapon. His rule was that of a nationally indifferent despot- if we refer to his supposed Croatian national loyalty. He didn't display any during his rule. On the contrary- he brutally crushed "Croatian spring" in 1971. (more than 4.000 Croatian refugees) and tried to centralize his fiefdom of Yugoslavia- and this inevitably meant to Serbianize it, to a degree, because the capital was Belgrade and Serbs a relative majority in his Yugoslavia (some 40% of the populace).
"during which Serbian language and its Cyrillic alphabet was systematically opressed (Most notably in the Novi Sad agreement of 1954)"
Rubbish. Serbian language was in fact *imposed* in vital areas of life: it was the official language of the Yugoslav Army, Yugoslav diplomacy, lingua franca in communication of Yugoslav republics that spoke
languages other than Croatian and Serbian (Slovenia, Macedonia). During 1971. virtually all copies of Croatian orthography manual, authored by academicians Babić, Finka and Moguš was *burnt*, and one remaining copy was smuggled into Britain, where it was printed and distributed among Croatian emigres. Humorously, it got the name "the Londoner", according to the name of the city where it was reprinted.
http://www.cam.ac.uk/societies/cro/crolang.htm
In September 1971, a manual of Croatian Orthography, designed for primary and secondary schools, was published in Zagreb. Compiled by three eminent linguists (S. Babic - B. Finka - M. Mogus), it codified the current norm of Croatian spelling and orthography: "In all ways, from a purely language point of view, The Croatian Orthography is probably the most authoritative guide to enlightened language practice in Croatia today". Forty thousand copies of this handbook awaiting distribution were seized and destroyed on the orders of the political authorities. This auto-da-fé threw a particular light on the "cultural" policy of the Belgrade government. But one copy of the Croatian Orthography survived, was smuggled abroad and reprinted in London in 1972.
The same fate-censorship and suppression- befell Croatian grammars (Babić-Težak), Croatian grammar of the Institute for language in Zagreb and many Croatian language related books (history of language, language counsellors,..).
Also, many Croatian men and women lost their jobs or were, in extreme cases, incarcerated because they used typically Croatian words that had unmistakeably "nationalist" resonances in the ears of Yugoslav political watchdogs: (siječanj, protimba, promidžba-january, contradiction, propaganda). Needless
to say- *no* Serbian grammar or orthograpy manual or whatever was prohibited. Nor any Serbian person went to jail for ostentatively using characteristically Serbian words.
As for "Cyrillic alphabet oppression" myth- Yugoslavia was in the "golden age" of Tito's detente with the West, from 1960s to his death in 1980, more or less sucked into sphere of Western influence (tourism, workers from Yu in Germany or France,..) so that Serbian Cyrillic alphabet was gradually abandoned by pro-Western Serbian youth. Even now, in 2003. (23 years after Tito's death, 13 years after the collapse
of Communism and 2 years after the demise of Slobodan Milošević)- the vast majority of books, press, signs, advertisments,.. etc. in Serbia proper are in Latin script. Well- if more than 70% of city signs in Belgrade are in Latin and not Cyrillic script now, and if Serbian parliament issued a special resolution (some 2 months ago) that tried to impose Cyrillic script as the primary script in Serbia- then, it's hardly the old dictator to be the scapegoat to blame. As for Novi Sad "agreement" in 1954.- Croatian participants were outnumbered by Serbian in 3/1 ratio, and the entire "agreement" was essentially a capitulation of Croatian linguists and writers in the atmosphere of threats and oppression created by Yugoslav Communist elite that tried, following centralizing tendencies of Communist dictatorship, to "create" the official language for Yugoslavia- in this case, Serbian. It isn't for nothing that Croatian cultural institutions withdrew their signatures in the climate of growing liberalism, 1967 (Decalaration on Croatian language)- while Serbian institutions didn't move for an inch. Why would they ? The "agreement" from 1954. perfectly fit their aims.
So much about "oppression" of Serbian language during Tito's totalitarian rule.
"Yugoslavian lexicographical institute (which was creating and publishing official and practicaly the only encyclopedias and dictionaries) was based in Zagreb and operated by Croats."
This time- only partially true. First- this was virtually the only Yugoslav institution located in Zagreb. All others were in Serbia, and the majority in Belgrade- from military history institute to
history institutes and the rest. "Yugoslav" simply meant- located in the capital Belgrade. As for Lexicographical institute, it was a compromise that stemmed from two reasons: its director, famous Croatian writer Miroslav Krleža, was Tito's personal friend. Second- only Croatia, among all Yugoslav republics, had a vital lexicographical tradition. This is evident especially now, when Croatian
lexicographical institute, http://www.hlz.hr/eng/home.html , is teeming with impressive lexicographical activity. In Serbia and Montenegro- nothing, zero, zippo, zilch. Who prevents you now ? As for "publishing official...dictionaries"- rubbish. Dictionaries were published across Yugoslavia by various publishers. Serbia, in order to avoid unwanted possible Croatian influence in the field, translated, in 1970s, most of famous Larousse encyclopedias. And- some encyclopedias were edited in "mixed" Croatian ijekavian and Serbian ekavian languages (Encyclopedia of Fine Arts, Encyclopedia of Forestry), while general ones had Serbian issues. And the collaboartors were from all republics of former Yugoslavia- as anyone can check.
"Tito himself was natively speaker of what is known as Kajkavian dialect of Serbo-Croatian language and for more then 40 years of life in Belgrade never learned Serbian accent nor pronounciation."
Bwaaahh...what can I say ? Does the page on Croatian language "deserve" such a lucid insight ? Really-no comment.
Well- that's all, folx. Little language, much politics. If anyone considers Nikola Smolenski's "doings" on this page appropriate- then, I've wandered in the wasteland.
Hastalavista baby
Mir Harven (mharven@softhome.net)
Hm..nice. I would like, if possible, to add to the "disputed part" of the Croatian language page, a link pointing to this, discussion page, in order that someone who might stumble upon the page could hear pro et contra arguments. And see for themselves why the disputed part is debatable at all.
M H
"This nomenclature is used primarily by Croats around the world to designate the tongue formerly known as Serbo-Croatian." (referring to the "diasystem" notion).
Well-not quite true. In short, Croatian linguists are divided in two "camps": one avers that all dialects from Croatian/Slovenian border to Serbian/Macedonian border belong to a single system of dialects they call "Central South Slavic diasystem" and which includes kajkavian, chakavian, shtokavian and torlak dialects. The other group thinks that there is no need for any "diasystem" since standard languages are not defined in terms of genetic linguistics. Since there is no "diasystem" covering Urdu and Hindi dialects, or Bulgarian and Macedonian- no need for "Central South Slavic". Be as it may- both groups don't think that a unified "Serbo-Croatian language" ever existed (even in a bivariant form)-unlike some Serbian linguists (most notably Ranko Bugarski) who think that Serbo-Croatian existed, but has disintegrated in 2 or 3 "successor languages". Anyway- "diasystem" is still used by ca. a half of Croatian linguists, almost all Bosniak/Bosnian Muslim and almost negligible part of Serbian ones. As for situation in "other" countries (other than ex-Yu) situation is "mixed"- "diasystem" notion is used by some notable linguists in Germany, Ukraine and France. But, generally, the dominant mood is that of confusion: some work with old Serbo-Croatian paradigm, others have left it altogether, and the majority vacillate between all these positions.
M H
Greater Serbian crap about Croatian & Bosnian "newspeak" deleted. Heal your inferiority complexes elsewhere. If this crap persist-you'll get exposed in a way you truly deserve. Mind your own biz and keep out of Croatian lang page with your filthy hate.
Mir Harven
I'm a Central-European myself, so I understand the complexity of this problem. But is the discussion still alive and, above all, was any middle-ground version prepared? Halibutt 05:38, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Hi. It would also be very interesting that someone add perhaps pretty close connection between Croatian dialect from Zagorje and Slovene language. I shall add this obvious connection (but I am not a Slavist, neither Slovenist or Croatianist (is this the right term?)) to the article about Slovene language. As it is written in this article that Croatian is the Central-South Slavic diasystem. Interesting, because (at my opinion) we can't speak about any diasystem in Slovene language - so the language itself is somehow unique among the Slavic languages (just do not ask me to reveal my own theory about the language...!), and specially among the languages of the former Yugoslavia. (I also know too little about Macedonian-Bulgarian connections). I just see tiny outlines of this diasystem between Slovene and Zagorje dialect. And no other at all.
0, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
They say that theoretically the closest language to Slovene is Bulgarian. I know to little to confirm this. In my opinion is the Russian language and not Croatian or Serbian, which might in fact be the closest ones. In a historical view of the last 20th century at least. Perhaps typical representative of this was here belittled Josip Broz Tito himself (- hey guys, he was the leader of anti-Nazism forces during WW2, so watch a bit for your words... - he wasn't just a communist authoritarian leader and dictator - you can speak now whatever you want, after his death yeah, but you can show some respect too ...), because his father was Croat, mother Slovene and he was born in Kumrovec, which is, as we all know in Zagorje. And some say that he spoke badly Croatian or Serbo-Croatian. (Ups, I didn't read the debate above first, so this might fall out of the context. And BTW in Slovene we say factory "tovarna" and also German "fabrika" in colloquial language, heh, he.) And also - Yugoslav Encyclopedia (general and of Yugoslavia) was printed in Slovene too. Slovenes never protested that the Lexicographical institute was stationed in Zagreb. But I can't agree with the sentence: Second- only Croatia, among all Yugoslav republics, had a vital lexicographical tradition. As I know Encyclopedia of Slovenia (Enciklopedija Slovenije) is already out with all of its volumes. So, from where this edition did come from? I guess from nothing. Zero, zippo, zilch, nicego.
Another indication that Slovene language was never diasystem or multisystem is that Croats or Serbs badly understood Slovene, while most Slovenes did understand Serbo-Croatian well.
Not perfect of course, but better that them their language. So Slovenes always spoke with Serbs or Croats in bad Serbo-Croatian - which is in fact not fair. Even today this is so. Hate, hate all around. Poles do not want to speak Russian, Croats do not want to speak Serbian, Serbs do not want to hear about Croatian and on and on. And finally - you're blaming Tito in such an extent. While he was still alive there was at least PEACE in Yugoslavia. You should also consider the situation during the Cold War in Europe not just in former Yugoslavia itself. Only 10 years after his death this terrible inhumanity happened. Where did so praised "bratsvo i jedinstvo" ("brotherhood and unity") go?. Kak' si rekel, tak sem čul. Nikak nebu, a da nekak nebu. I nikad i ni bilo, da nekak ni bilo...
And on the end one fact from one Slovene internet forum when one Slovene said: I guess the only war I shall see in my whole life in the future will be the War between Slovenia and Croatia. I think these sad words say enough. All who have cooked the mess in former Yugoslavia will get their own appropriate judgement, I won't judge noone. They always got it. Best regards. -- XJamRastafire 05:57, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I tako...ode drug Tito. A nije uspio svladati ni "Srpski bukvar za početnike-az, buki, vedi.." Mir Harven 19:36, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The language / dialect that is spoken in Zagorje and Medimurje is without a doubt a transition between Slovenian and Croatian - it has been this way for centuries, since it was rather multiethnic area. The standardisation of Slovenian and Croatian (to a much bigger extent - stokavian was based as the model), is helping destroy this rather interesting dialect. what a shame!
and for the person, that wrote that without the influence of "serbo-croatian" media and/or education of the language would not be able to understand it. complete bollocks! sure there are bigger differences with serbian (thanks to thousands of turkish words), but one can still understand it - even if not very well.
A —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.78.218.206 ( talk) 11:27, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
As a kid I spoke Serbo-Croation. Now I speak Croatian, Serbian, and Bosnian, soon I'll speak Montenegrin. Get over it people it is the same language written in two different scripts. Saying Serbian and Croation are two different languages is like telling someone from New York City someone in London speaks a different language. A couple of words here and there and a different accent do not make a seperate language.
hmm do both croatian and servo-croatian really need a seperate place? it seems to me that both are actually the same language with the same history and stuff and only now for political reasons not being considered the same. also now the info that should be the same in both articles (history or the facts sheet for example) that should be excactly the same will not be.
Can't Croatian language be put under "the name controversy" and/or "dialects" at Serbo-Croatian language or could we make a shared 'history' section? -- 62.251.90.73 21:57, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
THAT's nonsense! You cannot compare 'serbian' and 'croatian' with swedish, norvegian and danish, because those 3 languages are different enough to be considered as separate languaguages. That is not case with the serbian, croatian, bosnian, montenegrin and bunjevac dialects of SERBOCROATIAN LANGUAGE, because they are just dialects of ONE LANGUAGE, called SERBOCROATIAN or today: Bosnian/Croatian/Serbaian. Please respect the facts that are respected by all normal scientific factors in the world and most importantly- The European Union and all its bodies. 62.162.62.189 ( talk) 08:05, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Croatian is just a dialect of Serbian and vice versa. The "Croatian language" is not different enough to be considered separate. Both Serbian and Croatian come from Slavonic and both used Cyrillic for the majority of their existence. Now either language can be written in Cyrillic or Latinic although for nationalistic or educational reasons Croats refuse to write in Cyrillic. People are now even talking about a Bosnian language, which is basically Serbian dialect written in Latinics, and a Montenegrin language, which is Croatian dialect with some extra accents. This is retarded at best, the language is the same, it is simply called differently in different Yugoslav states because of ethnic tensions. Go look at
Demographics of SFR Yugoslavia to get an idea of where different dialects are used, but as far as I'm concerned the language we are all talking about is
Yugoslav. Screw all you racists trying to rewrite history.
Zalgo (
talk) 06:40, 15 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
99.236.221.124 (
talk)
I see some Serbs failed history class...
First, the Cyrillic script was used in Croatia only during Yugoslavia.
Second, Ukrainian and Russian are also very similar, but they are not the same language.
Third, according to the comments, it seems that Serbs still dream about Greater Serbia, and believe in fictional truth that all people from Southeastern Europe are actually Serbs. Talking about racism and fascism...(rolleyes). Wikipedia will not accept fictional truths from Serbian radicals, it will only accept the facts. Thank you.
Again, (now for real), screw all you fascist trying to rewrite history. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Truthseeker1412 (
talk •
contribs) 12:41, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Suspicion of copyright infringement to http://www.hercegbosna.org/engleski/croatian_language.html .
Can someone please tell the likes of Shallot to not talk about things they dont know about. And to watch making spelling mistakes which could be mistaken as slurs.~~
This article argues that Croatian doesn't come below Serbo-Croatian in the categorization. The article Serbo-Croatian language does. Please let's just keep things separated as they are and avoid casting judgement from one article into the other. -- Joy [shallot] 11:45, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Every foreign linguist agree that Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian r standard forms of one unic Serbo-Croatian language.
I think that theur opinion counts more because we cannot say that they are partial.That we cannot say for experts from mentioned countries. U say that u have a lot of agruments that contradict my stands.Belive me for every agrument of your I have at least 3 anti-arguments.And another prove that it is one language:in areas where Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks live they all speak same dialect of Serbo-Croatian. My final:SERBIAN,CROATIAN and BOSNIAN R STANDARD FORMS OF SERBO-CROATIAN LANGUAGE. User:Jugoslaven
The taxobox row we're arguing about says "genetic classification", and links to language families and languages, which in turn explains how language families are based on its members deriving from a common ancestor. "Serbo-Croatian" is not a current name for this language I'm speaking, and the same language is not merely a phylogenetic child of Serbo-Croatian, it's also much more a child of older forms of dialects that predate S-C. This is a valid argument even if one ignores the plea against use of the term "Serbo-Croatian" because it's inherently biased towards the first listed origin and the two origins listed at all. -- Joy [shallot] 18:48, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The article South Slavic languages cites Croatian as subcategory of Serbo-Croatian:
Serbo-Croatian (ca. 17 million)
Bosnian (ca. 2 million) Croatian (ca. 5 million) Serbian (ca. 10 million)
So we can categorize Croatian in taxbox as Subcategory of Serbo-Croatian or bold Croatian in word Serbo-Croatian so that others know that it is about Croatian standard of Serbo-Croatian. User:Jugoslaven
I don't really mind the low-key revert war over this, although it would be much more sensible to discuss it here first before changing it in the article again. What I do mind is people calling those with a different opinion vandals. That's just counterproductive, plus see wikipedia:No personal attacks. Zocky 18:13, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I will remind that Jugoslaven is still persistently adding "Serbo-" in this article's taxobox with little apparent rationale. I suppose it's a good way as any to pump up one's edit count... -- Joy [shallot] 23:49, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Interesting discussion about the history of the Croatian language appeared at Image_talk:Cpw10ct.gif. Feel free to check it out.
"A good example is the wikipedia project, with non-existent «Serbo-Croatian» wikipedia (on a more formal level, such an enterprise is not linguistically possible since any text would be easily recognized as either Croatian or Serbian, with Bosnian somewhere in the middle)."
I don't think this is a good example at all. It is also possible to recognise English as American, Australian, British or variants somewhere in the middle, but an English Wikipedia is possible (it exists, in fact). Shouldn't we remove this passage?
There is no language called Serbo-Croatian. They are not completely different, but they are not the same either. Also, its not only the fact that they are different languages, the cultures are different as well. Therefor one can not combine the two.
What nonsence! :))) HolyRomanEmperor 16:33, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
SERBOCROATIAN LANGUAGE ALWAYS EXISTED AND WILL EXIST, AND ALL THE MORONS WHO IGNORE THAT FACT AND WRITE NONSENCE (LIKE THE ONE ABOVE) SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO SPREAD THEIR TRASH! TRULY!:)) Look there is no practical difirence betveen serbian and croatian language.What you are claim you claim from nationalistic reasons. Lord feanor 22:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Jeez, Lord Serb, you really need to calm down and accept the facts =) Talking about nationalism, why do you spread fictional truth about Croats on entire Wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthseeker1412 ( talk • contribs) 12:48, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
See: Glasovanje_o_zatvaranju_srpskohrvatske_Wikipedije Hope, many of you will contribute! :) -- Neoneo13 13:36, 11 January 2006 (UTC) HA, HA, YOU ASKED FOR CLOSING THE CROATIAN WIKIPEDIA, LET'S ALL OF US DO IT:))
Need I elaborate why I added {{tl:POV-section}}? Entire "Unification and separation with Serbian" section is full of assertions about alleged attempts on supremacy of Serbian language, lacking sources and repeating the same thesis over and over. I'm not saying that the tendency and attempts did not exist, but the section exaggerates it beyond reasonable limits. Should I go point by point?
Sources? Having read few Croatian texts from the time, I can say they the Croatian idiom in them is pretty distinguishable.
Uh-oh.
Uh-oh.
No comment.
I've never heard a rumor, and hardly an evidence, that those pretty renowned people had their arms twisted to sign it.
All Croats? At least it has a source, i.e. mentions one.
This is an un-encyclopedical praising, suggesting that everything that existed before was rubbish.
One can say so, because Illyrian Movement certainly did have political ambitions. I say this because the "Serbo-Croatian language" was basically their idea. Duja 16:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I throughfuly read the article and I do not see what in it exactly violates the NPOV policy. All the quotations you listed here are basicly correct and I do not see what is the problem here; you have not made much point in counter-argumenting them ("uh-oh" is hardly a valid argument). I therefore suggest the POV tag be removed. - Hierophant 22:52, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Neither this article or the discussion about it are by far scientific and neutral. Instead of explaining the linguistic differences and similarities the authors repeat very common political "arguments", actually - opinions, over and over again. A proper comment from a neutral, expert dialectologist would be necessary if this debate (or article) is to become anything but another sad piece of building sand of arising new national identities. -- 81.96.69.232 20:22, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
If any two (one serbian and one croatian) person can fully understand each other while each one is talking in the language he/she learned from his/her mother, then separate serbian and croatian languages do not exist, those are only dialects of the common serbo-croatian language then.
Just like biological races are defined as such that multiplication and production of fertile offsprings must be impossible between any two different races of animals, languages must be fully unintelligible to each other in order to qualify as true autonomic languages. Otherwise they are just dialects and chauvinists and fascists are using them to artifically incite racial hatred in people. It is a matter of fact that the serbian nation liberated the balkan with arms from the nazi rule and therefore serb race has superiorty over the other, seni-slavic nations that supported fascism in WWII, like the ustasha. They were responsible for the 1971 school textbook counter-revolution which Marsall Tito crushed so majestically. 195.70.32.136 16:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Mir (or anyone else), I'd appreciate if you could expand more on the ije/ie/je debate (and possibly fix my addition on about exactly what is the disagreement). I wanted to move your addition from Montenegrin language:
but I don't quite follow who argues what (not that I delved too deeply into the matter), so I expanded somewhat on the debate, but it certainly needs some improvement. Duja 09:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
If I may offer my two cents. It seems a bit of time has passed and perhaps this is a dead issue, however.. The comments regarding "standardology" are quite valid and significant. With my modest education and experience in Linguistics, I can merely offer "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy." Don't remember whose quote it is but it seems to apply here. Also, from what I remember of my college days, the linguistic area roughly corresponding to the Former Yugo can best be described as a continuum. Neighboring villages will understand each other with slight differences but villages further apart will begin to see more differences and so continuing with distance covered. Therefore it is not surprising that villages in Zagorje (near the Slovene border) would display identical or near-identical features with villages accross the political border. Last but not least: Most linguistic study abandoned "prescriptive grammer" fifty years ago opting for "descriptive." It seems to be the decision of the speaker to decide the name of the "language" spoken. The rest seems to be linguists' attempts to attach meaningful labels. Thanks for your attention. Perun1962 18:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
RAZGOVOR Prof. dr. IVO PRANJKOVIĆ, UGLEDNI JEZIKOSLOVAC, SUAUTOR NEDAVNO OBJAVLJENE GRAMATIKE HRVATSKOGA JEZIKA Hrvatski i srpski su jedan jezik VARIJETETI ISTOGA Na standardološkoj razini, hrvatski, srpski, bosanski, pa i crnogorski jezik različiti su varijeteti, ali istoga jezika. Dakle, na čisto lingvističkoj razini, odnosno na genetskoj razini, na tipološkoj razini, radi se o jednom jeziku i to treba jasno reći
Here’s the translation of the main title and the introduction article of this interview:
INTERVIEW: PROF.DR. IVO PRANJKOVIC, THE FAMOUS LINGUIST AND CO-AUTHOR OF THE RECENT PUBLISHED, GRAMMAR OF CROATIAN LANGUAGE’.
CROATIAN AND SERBIAN ARE ONE LANGUAGE! VARIETIES OF IT: On a standard level, Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian and now Montenegrin language are just varieties, but from a same language. Therefore, pure linguistically and typologically they are all ONE LANGUAGE and it should be said very clearly!
The rest of the text just confirms what’s in the title and the main article. In spite of all sick nationalists and evil propagators:-SERBOCROATIAN IS ONE LANGUAGE AND WILL STAY ONE FOREVER!CHEERS! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.86.127.107 ( talk) 04:21, 9 April 2007 (UTC).
Can the Croatian language can be sometimes Cyrillized? -- Blake3522 04:40, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Never. An average Croat is irritated by Cyrillics. 99.229.96.231 05:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Few years ago last person who understand Croatian in Molise died. Today in Molise nobody speaks Croatian -- Billy the lid ( talk) 11:55, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
What does this phrase mean? It appears high in the article. Can someone who knows the author's intent please rephrase. Coughinink ( talk) 01:58, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
From the article:
There are seven tenses, four of which (present, perfect, future I and II) are used in contemporary standard Croatian, with the other three (aorist, imperfect and plusquamperfect) considered stylistically marked and archaic.
This sentence should probably be considered misleading and/or incorrect. The overwhelming majority of modern linguists agree that most languages have two tenses, and that no language (at least, no language with a vectorial tense system, such as all Indo-European languages) has more than three. Theoretically speaking, and based upon the linguist's definition of "vectorial tense", there can only be three tenses. Please see Tense by Bernard Comrie ( ISBN 0521281385) and the chapter on tense in Linguistic Semantics by William Frawley ( ISBN 0805810757), among many others.
The author(s) must forgive my guesswork, for I know nothing of Croatian; but perhaps the author meant to say that the language has seven distinct classes of verb affixes that indicate various combinations of tense, aspect, and/or modality. Phrasing the sentence along this general arc would give a more syntactic (as opposed to semantic) flavor to the assertion, which in turn would improve its correctness. Or, perhaps it is commonplace in the prescriptive teaching of Croatian to assert that the language has seven tenses (similar tricks are common in the teaching of many languages). Such pedagogical shortcuts should not necessarily be considered valid descriptive frameworks.
Ericbg05 ( talk) 17:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. Plusquamperfect is not stylisticall marked, nor considered archaic.
Aorist has recent years passed through a small revival, thanks to SMS - aorist is shorter than perfect tense, so more text can be made within a single message (there're some works that speak about this).
Kubura (
talk) 15:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
It's not just a "version" of Central South Slavic dyasystem.. It's an independent language, with its own development.
Further, some Croatian communities outside Croatia and B&H aren't considered as Croat diaspora, but as autochtonous one.
Croatian: inhabitant of Croatia, or Croatian citizen, not necessarily a Croat
Croat: nationality, not necessarily a Croatian citizen nor inhabitant of Croatia.
Y
That's the explanation of my edits.
Kubura (
talk) 15:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Can someone go to the Vuk Karadžić site, some moron wrote that today Croatian is modern Serbian with few changes. Carib canibal ( talk) 15:57, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
That, which is written on Vuk Karadzic's page is more or less-the TRUTH. Morons are those who hide and reject it, nobody else. Ante. 62.162.62.189 ( talk) 08:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
The sentence in the article starting:, It is sometimes classified as belonging to the Central South Slavic diasystem (also referred to as "Serbo-Croatian"). is not totally correct, because the Croatian standard of SerboCroatian Language (or Central South Slavic Diasystem) is NOT belonging SOMETIMES to the Central South Slavic Diasystem, but ALWAYS. It's an equal part of this diasystem, as well as Serbian, Bosnian, Bunjevac or Montenegrin part. Please respect the facts and don't lose the connection with the reality. Thanks; 24.86.116.250 ( talk) 05:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
We need a section that demonstrates differences between the three "dialects" of Croatian. We could have lets say 10 samples of text in English, Shtokavian, Kajkavian, and Chakavian to get an understanding of how like/unlike they are. Thanks. I am unfamiliar with the 2 minor dialects but would greatly appreciate seeing their differences. 70.171.46.92 ( talk) 19:37, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Speaking of Schleicher's fable, here's how it was given in IWoBA in Zagreb 2005:
-- Ivan Štambuk ( talk) 08:39, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Aradic-es, would you kindly explain why you keep on returning the section called "Diagraph". Does it look salvageable to you? The author apparently doesn't know how to spell the word, let alone anything about linguistics. So, what does a section explaining how digraphs from English and German are NOT pronounced in Croatian is doing in a remotely serious article. I could certainly "improve" it by adding how e.g. Dutch or Spanish digraphs are NOT pronounced in Croatian, and so ad infinitum. The articles are sometimes best improved by removing the cr... bad stuff. No such user ( talk) 12:36, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
It seems that all your work is at talk pages and doing nothing uselfull at the article itself. That paragraph is made as an instruction for the English speakers about the difference that exist and it is matter of this article. if you have nothing better to do here... then stay away from the article! -- Añtó| Àntó ( talk) 13:10, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
Thank you very much!
I am tyred of conflicts with editors who believe that being native English speaker makes them top-gun encyclopedians.
P.S. you are obviously one of those who "know " perfectly which articles should be deleted, but no idea which articles should be written. Añtó| Àntó ( talk) 09:08, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Could someone please revise the two consonant sections into one, it's a little confusing (and I am not qualified to do it myself!). Thanks! 77.100.4.112 ( talk) 19:04, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Saying that the h is like h in English is an error. If it's velar as stated in the table, then it is not like in English, where /h/ is glottal [h], not [x]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.239.167.44 ( talk) 19:54, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Prof. Skaric has said Croatian /h/ is realized as [h], only before r's it's [x]: hodati (with [h]), bih (with [h)), hrast [with [x]), hrt [with [x])]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.139.110.123 ( talk) 09:26, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Ex13 (sockpuppet of former Suradnik13), as I see you're playing dumb in the comments you keep reverting me, let me inform you of some undisputed inconvenient facts, namely that the Serbo-Croatian macrolanguage being recognized by SIL/ISO and assigned ISO 639-3 code hbs.
Since it encompasses Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian individual languages, it must go above them in the hierarchy, underneath the "South Slavic languages" clade.
Also, before you enter berserk mode upon seeing anything that contains the phrase Serbo-Croatian, "embarrassing" for Croatian nationalist bigots, please take time to actually read what you are reverting, as you've also removed the Balto-Slavic node. Perhaps you didn't know, but Balto-Slavic languages constitute genetic node, please study the [[ Balto-Slavic languages]] article.
Let me also inform you that macrolanguages are treated within the infobox genetic tree on every Wikipedia article. Hence we have e.g.:
Thus, there is absolutely no reason that Serbo-Croatian varieties (Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian and in-process-fabricating Montenegrin) shouldn't mention the Serbo-Croatian macrolanguage as an upper node. B/C/S varieties are furthermore 100 times more similar (e.g. identical phonology, 99% identical grammar, 100% mutual intelligibility) than the abovementioned Arabic and Albanian varieties, which are BTW barely mutually intelligible (often not at all), having vastly differing phonology and inflection.
I can imagine that some Croats such as yourself might feel "offended" by the mention of SC macrolanguage, but it's an ISO standard and we must mention it. Linguistically B/C/S varieties are one language (the Neoštokavian dialect) and it's pointless to diminish the relevance of that fact, or simply ignore it (it's not going away you know). On Croatian wikipadia you do your Balkanic interpretation of the world, this is English Wikipedia and we actually care for NPOV. -- Ivan Štambuk ( talk) 11:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Also please see
[3] for
Egyptian Arabic and
[4] for
Iraqi Arabic. --
Ex13 (
talk) 14:30, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
thsi language is spoken in croatia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.25.85.79 ( talk) 08:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
The image of Vojvodina in this article is really bad. I didn't do the edit myself (it should be at least just removed for start).
The truth is that there are 6 official languages in entire Vojvodina (it's not divided by municipalities). These are: Serbian, Hungarian, Romanian, Slovakian, Rusyn and Croatian.
It would be the best to just use the census data as in this image... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.87.120.74 ( talk) 22:57, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to comment the fragment of the article:
"Književni jezik (literraly:language of books) is a common phrase for any standard language.'
Although my knowledge of Croatian is very rudimentary, I believe that the literal English translation should be "literary language", as "književnost" is a Croatian word for "literature". Wie man wird, was man ist 16:58, 19 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kameal ( talk • contribs)
That književni is not related to književnost (novels , poetry) that is hardly written in standard language. That is croatian equivalent of Norwegian bokmal or riksmal: the language used for official purposes (laws, verdicts etc.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.2.156.130 ( talk) 15:26, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
In my opinion term Croatian language is inappropriate. Croatian pertains to the country, and Croat to the nation. Croatians can be Croats but also Serbs, Italians, Hungarians etc. Croat is spoken by Croats regardless of where they live, similarly German by Germans, English by the English and French by the French. Just like in England, France and Germany - the people gave the name to the country, not the other way round (as is the case with Italy or Hungary). Using Croatian language instead of Croat language to my mind smacks of cultural snobism. No one would ever say that they speak Englandian or Frenchian. All of the above goes for Serb - Serbian and Serbo-Croat. Vladbohm ( talk) 23:48, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
What would I change it to? Bosnian is the case in point as here the country gave name to the people. Ditto Macedonia - Macedonian, Hungary - Hungarian (but Magyars - Magyar). Would you say Slovakian or Slovak, Slovenian or Slovene? The Danish gave name to the country and the language, so did Finns, but Iceland gave the name to the people and the language - so we have Icelandic and Finnish :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vladbohm ( talk • contribs) 00:50, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
No need to panic. Freely write to the Herceg Bosna site, info@hercegbosna.org if Mir Harven (mharven@softhome.net) is one of the owners of the site. The answer will be prompt. So much for copyright panic.
Mir Harven
Btw- you can e-mail Herceg Bosna on the Web: just write following the contact link at http://www.hercegbosna.org/eng_index.html
M H
Unfortumately, I must object to your removal of my page on Croatian language and re-instatemt of the one I wouldnt deign to comment on. But I would on your unprofessionalism: as I have said, you will have gotten the answer from Herceg Bosna Website (you set the deadline of 7 days) on copyright issues. So, if you want professional relationship-I expect you to abide by your words.
Mir Harven (mharven@softhome.net)
OK, but, it's WEIRD. The site Herceg Bosna tried to e-mail you with regard that I may use the material on the site freely (in this case for wikipedia). Just- my buddy couldnt locate your address. How then is this biz re copyright cleared ? He sent mail stating he had got the linkhttp://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contributing_FAQ#I_have,_or_can_get,_special_permission_to_copy_an_image_or_article_to_Wikipedia._Is_it_OK_to_do_that? but could not get around.
Mir Harven
Aha, thanx for info. He was lost in a maze of hyperlinx.
Mir Harven
I reverted "Nikola Smolenski" (paraphrased)
1. I'll write here the arguments. 2. I've never seen the arguments of "Nikola Smolenski" 3. If mr. Smolenski's behavior continues without intervention - then, maybe whole biz is not worth the effort.
Mir Harven (mharven@softhome.net )
Well-as for me, I am ready to explain a few things. Here we go (although I doubt that even an interested outsider can force themselves to stay tuned). Also-feel free to delete a portion from Franolic lecture in Cambridge if you're uneasy about copyright:
OK, let's see mr. Nikola Smolenski's alterations of the Croatian language wiki page:
1. he persistently deletes following links:
http://eleaston.com/croatian.html Croatian language resources
and
http://www.hr/darko/etf/et04.html Croatian Cyrillic Script
Before saying anything about these linx, I must stress: it's a sign of obnoxious behavior to delete links on anyone's page. Not bad, not prankish, but purely and simply: disgusting. Now, back to the links:
The first link is essentially a page containing Croatian language links galore.The page belongs to a respectable private company, frequently referenced by other languages pages. And it's not my fault that Croatian language is nicely presented, in the company of Albanian, English, Chinese, Latin, Russian, Franch, Polish,..and *not* Serbian. There are other Croatian language sources pages (at least two with much more links than eleaston), and pretty few Serbian language pages. Do I smell a sense of envy-huh ? Am I to blame for the fact that when I go to amazon, http://www.amazon.com/ and write Croatian language in the search window, I get more than 340 titles. When I type Serbian language, I get less than 40. This *is* childish- but, for an exclusivist nationalist, I'd say: IT HURTS.
The second link, on Croatian Cyrillic Script belongs to the Zagreb University professor Darko Žubrinić who has made fine work in presenting Croatian cultural heritage on the Web. His pages are referenced in many academic and other respectable pages, like: OBSHTEZHITIE http://www.ceu.hu/medstud/ralph/obsht.htm
and Ohio university Slavic page. http://www.slavic.ohio-state.edu/people/yoo/links/slavic/medieval.htm
Now-let's drop unnecessary formalities and say a few frank words: it has been a favorite sport of Serbian scholars, mainly in the 20th century, to misattribute every Cyrillic book written in the areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia and claim it as their cultural heritage. Here, we must pause a minute. Simple
question is- why ? Why would anyone bother to claim that a certain book, possibly a prayer book written before 400 or 500 years, and even without artistic or literary value, belongs to the corpus of Serbian written word-and not Croatian ? Well- the answer is also simple. Wars from 1991 to 1995 in Croatia and
Bosnia and Herzegovina have provided the answer. A provincial imperialism, like Serbian, needed some sort of "historical justification" for contemporary expansionist geopolitical plans. If Bosnian Franciscan writers, who are Croats, and as such belong to Croatian cultural heritage (Divković and
Posilović in the 17th century, Margitić and others in the 18th etc.) had written from ca. 1600 to ca. 1700 mainly in Bosnian-Croat Cyrillic Script (better known as "bosanica" or "bosančica"), and
("cultural-historical") for Serbian expansionism. The same with Bosnian-Croat Cyrillic Script in Dalmatia in 14th century and later. On one hand, Serbian nationalists whine over the imagined "suppression" of Serbian Cyrillic Script in communist Yugoslavia. On the other- they are frightened when they see the affirmation of Croathood of some form of Cyrillic Script, which erodes their current geopolitical wishes.
I know it sounds silly. Why bother about such triflings ? The truth is that Serbian nationalism, based on such fabrications and lies, is not a trifling at all, and its expansionist drive after Croatian and Bosnian lands rests, partially, on distortion of linguistic and philological issues-however extravagant and silly it may seem.
Now to the text of mr. Smolenski. It is, I quote:
"Some Croats believe that their language was supressed in "Serbian-dominated Yugoslavia". While that could be possible during 23 years of Kingdom of Yugoslavia, ruled by Serb kings, nothing could be farther from the truth for 36 years of SFRY, held in totalitarian rule by a Croat Josip Broz Tito, during which Serbian language and its Cyrillic alphabet was systematically opressed (Most notably in the Novi Sad agreement of 1954) and Yugoslavian lexicographical institute (which was creating and publishing official and practicaly the only encyclopedias and dictionaries) was based in Zagreb and operated by Croats. Tito himself was natively speaker of what is known as Kajkavian dialect of Serbo-Croatian language and for more then 40 years of life in Belgrade never learned Serbian accent nor pronounciation."
Let's see:
"Some Croats believe that their language was supressed in "Serbian-dominated Yugoslavia". While that could be possible during 23 years of Kingdom of Yugoslavia, ruled by Serb kings, nothing could be farther from the truth for 36 years of SFRY, held in totalitarian rule by a Croat Josip Broz Tito,"
Rubbish. Tito was a Croat, but not a *Croatian* dictator. He was a bolshevik, communist authoritarian leader who deftly managed to hold the power with the combination of charismatic leadership (in a "soft" totalitarian state SFRJ), balancing inter-ethnic animosities and wielding Yugoslav People's Army- essentially his own, private weapon. His rule was that of a nationally indifferent despot- if we refer to his supposed Croatian national loyalty. He didn't display any during his rule. On the contrary- he brutally crushed "Croatian spring" in 1971. (more than 4.000 Croatian refugees) and tried to centralize his fiefdom of Yugoslavia- and this inevitably meant to Serbianize it, to a degree, because the capital was Belgrade and Serbs a relative majority in his Yugoslavia (some 40% of the populace).
"during which Serbian language and its Cyrillic alphabet was systematically opressed (Most notably in the Novi Sad agreement of 1954)"
Rubbish. Serbian language was in fact *imposed* in vital areas of life: it was the official language of the Yugoslav Army, Yugoslav diplomacy, lingua franca in communication of Yugoslav republics that spoke
languages other than Croatian and Serbian (Slovenia, Macedonia). During 1971. virtually all copies of Croatian orthography manual, authored by academicians Babić, Finka and Moguš was *burnt*, and one remaining copy was smuggled into Britain, where it was printed and distributed among Croatian emigres. Humorously, it got the name "the Londoner", according to the name of the city where it was reprinted.
http://www.cam.ac.uk/societies/cro/crolang.htm
In September 1971, a manual of Croatian Orthography, designed for primary and secondary schools, was published in Zagreb. Compiled by three eminent linguists (S. Babic - B. Finka - M. Mogus), it codified the current norm of Croatian spelling and orthography: "In all ways, from a purely language point of view, The Croatian Orthography is probably the most authoritative guide to enlightened language practice in Croatia today". Forty thousand copies of this handbook awaiting distribution were seized and destroyed on the orders of the political authorities. This auto-da-fé threw a particular light on the "cultural" policy of the Belgrade government. But one copy of the Croatian Orthography survived, was smuggled abroad and reprinted in London in 1972.
The same fate-censorship and suppression- befell Croatian grammars (Babić-Težak), Croatian grammar of the Institute for language in Zagreb and many Croatian language related books (history of language, language counsellors,..).
Also, many Croatian men and women lost their jobs or were, in extreme cases, incarcerated because they used typically Croatian words that had unmistakeably "nationalist" resonances in the ears of Yugoslav political watchdogs: (siječanj, protimba, promidžba-january, contradiction, propaganda). Needless
to say- *no* Serbian grammar or orthograpy manual or whatever was prohibited. Nor any Serbian person went to jail for ostentatively using characteristically Serbian words.
As for "Cyrillic alphabet oppression" myth- Yugoslavia was in the "golden age" of Tito's detente with the West, from 1960s to his death in 1980, more or less sucked into sphere of Western influence (tourism, workers from Yu in Germany or France,..) so that Serbian Cyrillic alphabet was gradually abandoned by pro-Western Serbian youth. Even now, in 2003. (23 years after Tito's death, 13 years after the collapse
of Communism and 2 years after the demise of Slobodan Milošević)- the vast majority of books, press, signs, advertisments,.. etc. in Serbia proper are in Latin script. Well- if more than 70% of city signs in Belgrade are in Latin and not Cyrillic script now, and if Serbian parliament issued a special resolution (some 2 months ago) that tried to impose Cyrillic script as the primary script in Serbia- then, it's hardly the old dictator to be the scapegoat to blame. As for Novi Sad "agreement" in 1954.- Croatian participants were outnumbered by Serbian in 3/1 ratio, and the entire "agreement" was essentially a capitulation of Croatian linguists and writers in the atmosphere of threats and oppression created by Yugoslav Communist elite that tried, following centralizing tendencies of Communist dictatorship, to "create" the official language for Yugoslavia- in this case, Serbian. It isn't for nothing that Croatian cultural institutions withdrew their signatures in the climate of growing liberalism, 1967 (Decalaration on Croatian language)- while Serbian institutions didn't move for an inch. Why would they ? The "agreement" from 1954. perfectly fit their aims.
So much about "oppression" of Serbian language during Tito's totalitarian rule.
"Yugoslavian lexicographical institute (which was creating and publishing official and practicaly the only encyclopedias and dictionaries) was based in Zagreb and operated by Croats."
This time- only partially true. First- this was virtually the only Yugoslav institution located in Zagreb. All others were in Serbia, and the majority in Belgrade- from military history institute to
history institutes and the rest. "Yugoslav" simply meant- located in the capital Belgrade. As for Lexicographical institute, it was a compromise that stemmed from two reasons: its director, famous Croatian writer Miroslav Krleža, was Tito's personal friend. Second- only Croatia, among all Yugoslav republics, had a vital lexicographical tradition. This is evident especially now, when Croatian
lexicographical institute, http://www.hlz.hr/eng/home.html , is teeming with impressive lexicographical activity. In Serbia and Montenegro- nothing, zero, zippo, zilch. Who prevents you now ? As for "publishing official...dictionaries"- rubbish. Dictionaries were published across Yugoslavia by various publishers. Serbia, in order to avoid unwanted possible Croatian influence in the field, translated, in 1970s, most of famous Larousse encyclopedias. And- some encyclopedias were edited in "mixed" Croatian ijekavian and Serbian ekavian languages (Encyclopedia of Fine Arts, Encyclopedia of Forestry), while general ones had Serbian issues. And the collaboartors were from all republics of former Yugoslavia- as anyone can check.
"Tito himself was natively speaker of what is known as Kajkavian dialect of Serbo-Croatian language and for more then 40 years of life in Belgrade never learned Serbian accent nor pronounciation."
Bwaaahh...what can I say ? Does the page on Croatian language "deserve" such a lucid insight ? Really-no comment.
Well- that's all, folx. Little language, much politics. If anyone considers Nikola Smolenski's "doings" on this page appropriate- then, I've wandered in the wasteland.
Hastalavista baby
Mir Harven (mharven@softhome.net)
Hm..nice. I would like, if possible, to add to the "disputed part" of the Croatian language page, a link pointing to this, discussion page, in order that someone who might stumble upon the page could hear pro et contra arguments. And see for themselves why the disputed part is debatable at all.
M H
"This nomenclature is used primarily by Croats around the world to designate the tongue formerly known as Serbo-Croatian." (referring to the "diasystem" notion).
Well-not quite true. In short, Croatian linguists are divided in two "camps": one avers that all dialects from Croatian/Slovenian border to Serbian/Macedonian border belong to a single system of dialects they call "Central South Slavic diasystem" and which includes kajkavian, chakavian, shtokavian and torlak dialects. The other group thinks that there is no need for any "diasystem" since standard languages are not defined in terms of genetic linguistics. Since there is no "diasystem" covering Urdu and Hindi dialects, or Bulgarian and Macedonian- no need for "Central South Slavic". Be as it may- both groups don't think that a unified "Serbo-Croatian language" ever existed (even in a bivariant form)-unlike some Serbian linguists (most notably Ranko Bugarski) who think that Serbo-Croatian existed, but has disintegrated in 2 or 3 "successor languages". Anyway- "diasystem" is still used by ca. a half of Croatian linguists, almost all Bosniak/Bosnian Muslim and almost negligible part of Serbian ones. As for situation in "other" countries (other than ex-Yu) situation is "mixed"- "diasystem" notion is used by some notable linguists in Germany, Ukraine and France. But, generally, the dominant mood is that of confusion: some work with old Serbo-Croatian paradigm, others have left it altogether, and the majority vacillate between all these positions.
M H
Greater Serbian crap about Croatian & Bosnian "newspeak" deleted. Heal your inferiority complexes elsewhere. If this crap persist-you'll get exposed in a way you truly deserve. Mind your own biz and keep out of Croatian lang page with your filthy hate.
Mir Harven
I'm a Central-European myself, so I understand the complexity of this problem. But is the discussion still alive and, above all, was any middle-ground version prepared? Halibutt 05:38, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Hi. It would also be very interesting that someone add perhaps pretty close connection between Croatian dialect from Zagorje and Slovene language. I shall add this obvious connection (but I am not a Slavist, neither Slovenist or Croatianist (is this the right term?)) to the article about Slovene language. As it is written in this article that Croatian is the Central-South Slavic diasystem. Interesting, because (at my opinion) we can't speak about any diasystem in Slovene language - so the language itself is somehow unique among the Slavic languages (just do not ask me to reveal my own theory about the language...!), and specially among the languages of the former Yugoslavia. (I also know too little about Macedonian-Bulgarian connections). I just see tiny outlines of this diasystem between Slovene and Zagorje dialect. And no other at all.
0, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
They say that theoretically the closest language to Slovene is Bulgarian. I know to little to confirm this. In my opinion is the Russian language and not Croatian or Serbian, which might in fact be the closest ones. In a historical view of the last 20th century at least. Perhaps typical representative of this was here belittled Josip Broz Tito himself (- hey guys, he was the leader of anti-Nazism forces during WW2, so watch a bit for your words... - he wasn't just a communist authoritarian leader and dictator - you can speak now whatever you want, after his death yeah, but you can show some respect too ...), because his father was Croat, mother Slovene and he was born in Kumrovec, which is, as we all know in Zagorje. And some say that he spoke badly Croatian or Serbo-Croatian. (Ups, I didn't read the debate above first, so this might fall out of the context. And BTW in Slovene we say factory "tovarna" and also German "fabrika" in colloquial language, heh, he.) And also - Yugoslav Encyclopedia (general and of Yugoslavia) was printed in Slovene too. Slovenes never protested that the Lexicographical institute was stationed in Zagreb. But I can't agree with the sentence: Second- only Croatia, among all Yugoslav republics, had a vital lexicographical tradition. As I know Encyclopedia of Slovenia (Enciklopedija Slovenije) is already out with all of its volumes. So, from where this edition did come from? I guess from nothing. Zero, zippo, zilch, nicego.
Another indication that Slovene language was never diasystem or multisystem is that Croats or Serbs badly understood Slovene, while most Slovenes did understand Serbo-Croatian well.
Not perfect of course, but better that them their language. So Slovenes always spoke with Serbs or Croats in bad Serbo-Croatian - which is in fact not fair. Even today this is so. Hate, hate all around. Poles do not want to speak Russian, Croats do not want to speak Serbian, Serbs do not want to hear about Croatian and on and on. And finally - you're blaming Tito in such an extent. While he was still alive there was at least PEACE in Yugoslavia. You should also consider the situation during the Cold War in Europe not just in former Yugoslavia itself. Only 10 years after his death this terrible inhumanity happened. Where did so praised "bratsvo i jedinstvo" ("brotherhood and unity") go?. Kak' si rekel, tak sem čul. Nikak nebu, a da nekak nebu. I nikad i ni bilo, da nekak ni bilo...
And on the end one fact from one Slovene internet forum when one Slovene said: I guess the only war I shall see in my whole life in the future will be the War between Slovenia and Croatia. I think these sad words say enough. All who have cooked the mess in former Yugoslavia will get their own appropriate judgement, I won't judge noone. They always got it. Best regards. -- XJamRastafire 05:57, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I tako...ode drug Tito. A nije uspio svladati ni "Srpski bukvar za početnike-az, buki, vedi.." Mir Harven 19:36, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The language / dialect that is spoken in Zagorje and Medimurje is without a doubt a transition between Slovenian and Croatian - it has been this way for centuries, since it was rather multiethnic area. The standardisation of Slovenian and Croatian (to a much bigger extent - stokavian was based as the model), is helping destroy this rather interesting dialect. what a shame!
and for the person, that wrote that without the influence of "serbo-croatian" media and/or education of the language would not be able to understand it. complete bollocks! sure there are bigger differences with serbian (thanks to thousands of turkish words), but one can still understand it - even if not very well.
A —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.78.218.206 ( talk) 11:27, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
As a kid I spoke Serbo-Croation. Now I speak Croatian, Serbian, and Bosnian, soon I'll speak Montenegrin. Get over it people it is the same language written in two different scripts. Saying Serbian and Croation are two different languages is like telling someone from New York City someone in London speaks a different language. A couple of words here and there and a different accent do not make a seperate language.
hmm do both croatian and servo-croatian really need a seperate place? it seems to me that both are actually the same language with the same history and stuff and only now for political reasons not being considered the same. also now the info that should be the same in both articles (history or the facts sheet for example) that should be excactly the same will not be.
Can't Croatian language be put under "the name controversy" and/or "dialects" at Serbo-Croatian language or could we make a shared 'history' section? -- 62.251.90.73 21:57, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
THAT's nonsense! You cannot compare 'serbian' and 'croatian' with swedish, norvegian and danish, because those 3 languages are different enough to be considered as separate languaguages. That is not case with the serbian, croatian, bosnian, montenegrin and bunjevac dialects of SERBOCROATIAN LANGUAGE, because they are just dialects of ONE LANGUAGE, called SERBOCROATIAN or today: Bosnian/Croatian/Serbaian. Please respect the facts that are respected by all normal scientific factors in the world and most importantly- The European Union and all its bodies. 62.162.62.189 ( talk) 08:05, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Croatian is just a dialect of Serbian and vice versa. The "Croatian language" is not different enough to be considered separate. Both Serbian and Croatian come from Slavonic and both used Cyrillic for the majority of their existence. Now either language can be written in Cyrillic or Latinic although for nationalistic or educational reasons Croats refuse to write in Cyrillic. People are now even talking about a Bosnian language, which is basically Serbian dialect written in Latinics, and a Montenegrin language, which is Croatian dialect with some extra accents. This is retarded at best, the language is the same, it is simply called differently in different Yugoslav states because of ethnic tensions. Go look at
Demographics of SFR Yugoslavia to get an idea of where different dialects are used, but as far as I'm concerned the language we are all talking about is
Yugoslav. Screw all you racists trying to rewrite history.
Zalgo (
talk) 06:40, 15 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
99.236.221.124 (
talk)
I see some Serbs failed history class...
First, the Cyrillic script was used in Croatia only during Yugoslavia.
Second, Ukrainian and Russian are also very similar, but they are not the same language.
Third, according to the comments, it seems that Serbs still dream about Greater Serbia, and believe in fictional truth that all people from Southeastern Europe are actually Serbs. Talking about racism and fascism...(rolleyes). Wikipedia will not accept fictional truths from Serbian radicals, it will only accept the facts. Thank you.
Again, (now for real), screw all you fascist trying to rewrite history. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Truthseeker1412 (
talk •
contribs) 12:41, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Suspicion of copyright infringement to http://www.hercegbosna.org/engleski/croatian_language.html .
Can someone please tell the likes of Shallot to not talk about things they dont know about. And to watch making spelling mistakes which could be mistaken as slurs.~~
This article argues that Croatian doesn't come below Serbo-Croatian in the categorization. The article Serbo-Croatian language does. Please let's just keep things separated as they are and avoid casting judgement from one article into the other. -- Joy [shallot] 11:45, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Every foreign linguist agree that Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian r standard forms of one unic Serbo-Croatian language.
I think that theur opinion counts more because we cannot say that they are partial.That we cannot say for experts from mentioned countries. U say that u have a lot of agruments that contradict my stands.Belive me for every agrument of your I have at least 3 anti-arguments.And another prove that it is one language:in areas where Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks live they all speak same dialect of Serbo-Croatian. My final:SERBIAN,CROATIAN and BOSNIAN R STANDARD FORMS OF SERBO-CROATIAN LANGUAGE. User:Jugoslaven
The taxobox row we're arguing about says "genetic classification", and links to language families and languages, which in turn explains how language families are based on its members deriving from a common ancestor. "Serbo-Croatian" is not a current name for this language I'm speaking, and the same language is not merely a phylogenetic child of Serbo-Croatian, it's also much more a child of older forms of dialects that predate S-C. This is a valid argument even if one ignores the plea against use of the term "Serbo-Croatian" because it's inherently biased towards the first listed origin and the two origins listed at all. -- Joy [shallot] 18:48, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The article South Slavic languages cites Croatian as subcategory of Serbo-Croatian:
Serbo-Croatian (ca. 17 million)
Bosnian (ca. 2 million) Croatian (ca. 5 million) Serbian (ca. 10 million)
So we can categorize Croatian in taxbox as Subcategory of Serbo-Croatian or bold Croatian in word Serbo-Croatian so that others know that it is about Croatian standard of Serbo-Croatian. User:Jugoslaven
I don't really mind the low-key revert war over this, although it would be much more sensible to discuss it here first before changing it in the article again. What I do mind is people calling those with a different opinion vandals. That's just counterproductive, plus see wikipedia:No personal attacks. Zocky 18:13, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I will remind that Jugoslaven is still persistently adding "Serbo-" in this article's taxobox with little apparent rationale. I suppose it's a good way as any to pump up one's edit count... -- Joy [shallot] 23:49, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Interesting discussion about the history of the Croatian language appeared at Image_talk:Cpw10ct.gif. Feel free to check it out.
"A good example is the wikipedia project, with non-existent «Serbo-Croatian» wikipedia (on a more formal level, such an enterprise is not linguistically possible since any text would be easily recognized as either Croatian or Serbian, with Bosnian somewhere in the middle)."
I don't think this is a good example at all. It is also possible to recognise English as American, Australian, British or variants somewhere in the middle, but an English Wikipedia is possible (it exists, in fact). Shouldn't we remove this passage?
There is no language called Serbo-Croatian. They are not completely different, but they are not the same either. Also, its not only the fact that they are different languages, the cultures are different as well. Therefor one can not combine the two.
What nonsence! :))) HolyRomanEmperor 16:33, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
SERBOCROATIAN LANGUAGE ALWAYS EXISTED AND WILL EXIST, AND ALL THE MORONS WHO IGNORE THAT FACT AND WRITE NONSENCE (LIKE THE ONE ABOVE) SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO SPREAD THEIR TRASH! TRULY!:)) Look there is no practical difirence betveen serbian and croatian language.What you are claim you claim from nationalistic reasons. Lord feanor 22:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Jeez, Lord Serb, you really need to calm down and accept the facts =) Talking about nationalism, why do you spread fictional truth about Croats on entire Wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthseeker1412 ( talk • contribs) 12:48, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
See: Glasovanje_o_zatvaranju_srpskohrvatske_Wikipedije Hope, many of you will contribute! :) -- Neoneo13 13:36, 11 January 2006 (UTC) HA, HA, YOU ASKED FOR CLOSING THE CROATIAN WIKIPEDIA, LET'S ALL OF US DO IT:))
Need I elaborate why I added {{tl:POV-section}}? Entire "Unification and separation with Serbian" section is full of assertions about alleged attempts on supremacy of Serbian language, lacking sources and repeating the same thesis over and over. I'm not saying that the tendency and attempts did not exist, but the section exaggerates it beyond reasonable limits. Should I go point by point?
Sources? Having read few Croatian texts from the time, I can say they the Croatian idiom in them is pretty distinguishable.
Uh-oh.
Uh-oh.
No comment.
I've never heard a rumor, and hardly an evidence, that those pretty renowned people had their arms twisted to sign it.
All Croats? At least it has a source, i.e. mentions one.
This is an un-encyclopedical praising, suggesting that everything that existed before was rubbish.
One can say so, because Illyrian Movement certainly did have political ambitions. I say this because the "Serbo-Croatian language" was basically their idea. Duja 16:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I throughfuly read the article and I do not see what in it exactly violates the NPOV policy. All the quotations you listed here are basicly correct and I do not see what is the problem here; you have not made much point in counter-argumenting them ("uh-oh" is hardly a valid argument). I therefore suggest the POV tag be removed. - Hierophant 22:52, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Neither this article or the discussion about it are by far scientific and neutral. Instead of explaining the linguistic differences and similarities the authors repeat very common political "arguments", actually - opinions, over and over again. A proper comment from a neutral, expert dialectologist would be necessary if this debate (or article) is to become anything but another sad piece of building sand of arising new national identities. -- 81.96.69.232 20:22, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
If any two (one serbian and one croatian) person can fully understand each other while each one is talking in the language he/she learned from his/her mother, then separate serbian and croatian languages do not exist, those are only dialects of the common serbo-croatian language then.
Just like biological races are defined as such that multiplication and production of fertile offsprings must be impossible between any two different races of animals, languages must be fully unintelligible to each other in order to qualify as true autonomic languages. Otherwise they are just dialects and chauvinists and fascists are using them to artifically incite racial hatred in people. It is a matter of fact that the serbian nation liberated the balkan with arms from the nazi rule and therefore serb race has superiorty over the other, seni-slavic nations that supported fascism in WWII, like the ustasha. They were responsible for the 1971 school textbook counter-revolution which Marsall Tito crushed so majestically. 195.70.32.136 16:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Mir (or anyone else), I'd appreciate if you could expand more on the ije/ie/je debate (and possibly fix my addition on about exactly what is the disagreement). I wanted to move your addition from Montenegrin language:
but I don't quite follow who argues what (not that I delved too deeply into the matter), so I expanded somewhat on the debate, but it certainly needs some improvement. Duja 09:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
If I may offer my two cents. It seems a bit of time has passed and perhaps this is a dead issue, however.. The comments regarding "standardology" are quite valid and significant. With my modest education and experience in Linguistics, I can merely offer "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy." Don't remember whose quote it is but it seems to apply here. Also, from what I remember of my college days, the linguistic area roughly corresponding to the Former Yugo can best be described as a continuum. Neighboring villages will understand each other with slight differences but villages further apart will begin to see more differences and so continuing with distance covered. Therefore it is not surprising that villages in Zagorje (near the Slovene border) would display identical or near-identical features with villages accross the political border. Last but not least: Most linguistic study abandoned "prescriptive grammer" fifty years ago opting for "descriptive." It seems to be the decision of the speaker to decide the name of the "language" spoken. The rest seems to be linguists' attempts to attach meaningful labels. Thanks for your attention. Perun1962 18:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
RAZGOVOR Prof. dr. IVO PRANJKOVIĆ, UGLEDNI JEZIKOSLOVAC, SUAUTOR NEDAVNO OBJAVLJENE GRAMATIKE HRVATSKOGA JEZIKA Hrvatski i srpski su jedan jezik VARIJETETI ISTOGA Na standardološkoj razini, hrvatski, srpski, bosanski, pa i crnogorski jezik različiti su varijeteti, ali istoga jezika. Dakle, na čisto lingvističkoj razini, odnosno na genetskoj razini, na tipološkoj razini, radi se o jednom jeziku i to treba jasno reći
Here’s the translation of the main title and the introduction article of this interview:
INTERVIEW: PROF.DR. IVO PRANJKOVIC, THE FAMOUS LINGUIST AND CO-AUTHOR OF THE RECENT PUBLISHED, GRAMMAR OF CROATIAN LANGUAGE’.
CROATIAN AND SERBIAN ARE ONE LANGUAGE! VARIETIES OF IT: On a standard level, Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian and now Montenegrin language are just varieties, but from a same language. Therefore, pure linguistically and typologically they are all ONE LANGUAGE and it should be said very clearly!
The rest of the text just confirms what’s in the title and the main article. In spite of all sick nationalists and evil propagators:-SERBOCROATIAN IS ONE LANGUAGE AND WILL STAY ONE FOREVER!CHEERS! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.86.127.107 ( talk) 04:21, 9 April 2007 (UTC).
Can the Croatian language can be sometimes Cyrillized? -- Blake3522 04:40, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Never. An average Croat is irritated by Cyrillics. 99.229.96.231 05:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Few years ago last person who understand Croatian in Molise died. Today in Molise nobody speaks Croatian -- Billy the lid ( talk) 11:55, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
What does this phrase mean? It appears high in the article. Can someone who knows the author's intent please rephrase. Coughinink ( talk) 01:58, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
From the article:
There are seven tenses, four of which (present, perfect, future I and II) are used in contemporary standard Croatian, with the other three (aorist, imperfect and plusquamperfect) considered stylistically marked and archaic.
This sentence should probably be considered misleading and/or incorrect. The overwhelming majority of modern linguists agree that most languages have two tenses, and that no language (at least, no language with a vectorial tense system, such as all Indo-European languages) has more than three. Theoretically speaking, and based upon the linguist's definition of "vectorial tense", there can only be three tenses. Please see Tense by Bernard Comrie ( ISBN 0521281385) and the chapter on tense in Linguistic Semantics by William Frawley ( ISBN 0805810757), among many others.
The author(s) must forgive my guesswork, for I know nothing of Croatian; but perhaps the author meant to say that the language has seven distinct classes of verb affixes that indicate various combinations of tense, aspect, and/or modality. Phrasing the sentence along this general arc would give a more syntactic (as opposed to semantic) flavor to the assertion, which in turn would improve its correctness. Or, perhaps it is commonplace in the prescriptive teaching of Croatian to assert that the language has seven tenses (similar tricks are common in the teaching of many languages). Such pedagogical shortcuts should not necessarily be considered valid descriptive frameworks.
Ericbg05 ( talk) 17:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. Plusquamperfect is not stylisticall marked, nor considered archaic.
Aorist has recent years passed through a small revival, thanks to SMS - aorist is shorter than perfect tense, so more text can be made within a single message (there're some works that speak about this).
Kubura (
talk) 15:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
It's not just a "version" of Central South Slavic dyasystem.. It's an independent language, with its own development.
Further, some Croatian communities outside Croatia and B&H aren't considered as Croat diaspora, but as autochtonous one.
Croatian: inhabitant of Croatia, or Croatian citizen, not necessarily a Croat
Croat: nationality, not necessarily a Croatian citizen nor inhabitant of Croatia.
Y
That's the explanation of my edits.
Kubura (
talk) 15:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Can someone go to the Vuk Karadžić site, some moron wrote that today Croatian is modern Serbian with few changes. Carib canibal ( talk) 15:57, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
That, which is written on Vuk Karadzic's page is more or less-the TRUTH. Morons are those who hide and reject it, nobody else. Ante. 62.162.62.189 ( talk) 08:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
The sentence in the article starting:, It is sometimes classified as belonging to the Central South Slavic diasystem (also referred to as "Serbo-Croatian"). is not totally correct, because the Croatian standard of SerboCroatian Language (or Central South Slavic Diasystem) is NOT belonging SOMETIMES to the Central South Slavic Diasystem, but ALWAYS. It's an equal part of this diasystem, as well as Serbian, Bosnian, Bunjevac or Montenegrin part. Please respect the facts and don't lose the connection with the reality. Thanks; 24.86.116.250 ( talk) 05:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
We need a section that demonstrates differences between the three "dialects" of Croatian. We could have lets say 10 samples of text in English, Shtokavian, Kajkavian, and Chakavian to get an understanding of how like/unlike they are. Thanks. I am unfamiliar with the 2 minor dialects but would greatly appreciate seeing their differences. 70.171.46.92 ( talk) 19:37, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Speaking of Schleicher's fable, here's how it was given in IWoBA in Zagreb 2005:
-- Ivan Štambuk ( talk) 08:39, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Aradic-es, would you kindly explain why you keep on returning the section called "Diagraph". Does it look salvageable to you? The author apparently doesn't know how to spell the word, let alone anything about linguistics. So, what does a section explaining how digraphs from English and German are NOT pronounced in Croatian is doing in a remotely serious article. I could certainly "improve" it by adding how e.g. Dutch or Spanish digraphs are NOT pronounced in Croatian, and so ad infinitum. The articles are sometimes best improved by removing the cr... bad stuff. No such user ( talk) 12:36, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
It seems that all your work is at talk pages and doing nothing uselfull at the article itself. That paragraph is made as an instruction for the English speakers about the difference that exist and it is matter of this article. if you have nothing better to do here... then stay away from the article! -- Añtó| Àntó ( talk) 13:10, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
Thank you very much!
I am tyred of conflicts with editors who believe that being native English speaker makes them top-gun encyclopedians.
P.S. you are obviously one of those who "know " perfectly which articles should be deleted, but no idea which articles should be written. Añtó| Àntó ( talk) 09:08, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Could someone please revise the two consonant sections into one, it's a little confusing (and I am not qualified to do it myself!). Thanks! 77.100.4.112 ( talk) 19:04, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Saying that the h is like h in English is an error. If it's velar as stated in the table, then it is not like in English, where /h/ is glottal [h], not [x]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.239.167.44 ( talk) 19:54, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Prof. Skaric has said Croatian /h/ is realized as [h], only before r's it's [x]: hodati (with [h]), bih (with [h)), hrast [with [x]), hrt [with [x])]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.139.110.123 ( talk) 09:26, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Ex13 (sockpuppet of former Suradnik13), as I see you're playing dumb in the comments you keep reverting me, let me inform you of some undisputed inconvenient facts, namely that the Serbo-Croatian macrolanguage being recognized by SIL/ISO and assigned ISO 639-3 code hbs.
Since it encompasses Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian individual languages, it must go above them in the hierarchy, underneath the "South Slavic languages" clade.
Also, before you enter berserk mode upon seeing anything that contains the phrase Serbo-Croatian, "embarrassing" for Croatian nationalist bigots, please take time to actually read what you are reverting, as you've also removed the Balto-Slavic node. Perhaps you didn't know, but Balto-Slavic languages constitute genetic node, please study the [[ Balto-Slavic languages]] article.
Let me also inform you that macrolanguages are treated within the infobox genetic tree on every Wikipedia article. Hence we have e.g.:
Thus, there is absolutely no reason that Serbo-Croatian varieties (Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian and in-process-fabricating Montenegrin) shouldn't mention the Serbo-Croatian macrolanguage as an upper node. B/C/S varieties are furthermore 100 times more similar (e.g. identical phonology, 99% identical grammar, 100% mutual intelligibility) than the abovementioned Arabic and Albanian varieties, which are BTW barely mutually intelligible (often not at all), having vastly differing phonology and inflection.
I can imagine that some Croats such as yourself might feel "offended" by the mention of SC macrolanguage, but it's an ISO standard and we must mention it. Linguistically B/C/S varieties are one language (the Neoštokavian dialect) and it's pointless to diminish the relevance of that fact, or simply ignore it (it's not going away you know). On Croatian wikipadia you do your Balkanic interpretation of the world, this is English Wikipedia and we actually care for NPOV. -- Ivan Štambuk ( talk) 11:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Also please see
[3] for
Egyptian Arabic and
[4] for
Iraqi Arabic. --
Ex13 (
talk) 14:30, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
thsi language is spoken in croatia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.25.85.79 ( talk) 08:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
The image of Vojvodina in this article is really bad. I didn't do the edit myself (it should be at least just removed for start).
The truth is that there are 6 official languages in entire Vojvodina (it's not divided by municipalities). These are: Serbian, Hungarian, Romanian, Slovakian, Rusyn and Croatian.
It would be the best to just use the census data as in this image... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.87.120.74 ( talk) 22:57, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to comment the fragment of the article:
"Književni jezik (literraly:language of books) is a common phrase for any standard language.'
Although my knowledge of Croatian is very rudimentary, I believe that the literal English translation should be "literary language", as "književnost" is a Croatian word for "literature". Wie man wird, was man ist 16:58, 19 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kameal ( talk • contribs)
That književni is not related to književnost (novels , poetry) that is hardly written in standard language. That is croatian equivalent of Norwegian bokmal or riksmal: the language used for official purposes (laws, verdicts etc.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.2.156.130 ( talk) 15:26, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
In my opinion term Croatian language is inappropriate. Croatian pertains to the country, and Croat to the nation. Croatians can be Croats but also Serbs, Italians, Hungarians etc. Croat is spoken by Croats regardless of where they live, similarly German by Germans, English by the English and French by the French. Just like in England, France and Germany - the people gave the name to the country, not the other way round (as is the case with Italy or Hungary). Using Croatian language instead of Croat language to my mind smacks of cultural snobism. No one would ever say that they speak Englandian or Frenchian. All of the above goes for Serb - Serbian and Serbo-Croat. Vladbohm ( talk) 23:48, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
What would I change it to? Bosnian is the case in point as here the country gave name to the people. Ditto Macedonia - Macedonian, Hungary - Hungarian (but Magyars - Magyar). Would you say Slovakian or Slovak, Slovenian or Slovene? The Danish gave name to the country and the language, so did Finns, but Iceland gave the name to the people and the language - so we have Icelandic and Finnish :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vladbohm ( talk • contribs) 00:50, 22 April 2010 (UTC)