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It served as a front for the Ustasha's in their genocide against Serbs and was canonically unacceptable. This is very POV, as almost the entire first paragraph of the article, and much of the rest of the article, too (Some Croats living in Montenegro support the idea of Red Croatia, and support the Montenegrin Orthodox Church to achieve their goals. Some Serbs see the Montenegrin Orthodox Church as being the present day incarnation of the Croatian Orthodox Church.).-- MaGioZal 07:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
How can the first part be POV? It is unacceptable under Orthodox Church Canon Law as it is a unilateral foundation of an autocephales Orthodox Church without the granting of such a position by an Ecumenical Council or a Mother Church such as Russia, Constantinople, Romania, or even Serbia. Additionally, it was formed as part of the Ustasha Nazi/Croatian alliance to liquidate the Serbs in the Nazi puppet state of Croatia. You are right about the latter bit, the connection to the Montenegrin Orthodox Church is weak. It only has the support of <30% of Montenegro (50,000) and it seems to be more Montenegrin Nationalist than Croatia. 71.240.138.137 ( talk) 20:24, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
-- PaxEquilibrium 15:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The biggest problem with all of this is that Croatians don't realize that without the Roman Catholic Church, Croats don't exist, just as without the Orthodox Christian Church, Serbs don't exist. The reason for the labels "Serb" and "Croat" is totally religious in nature. The name "Serb" belongs to Orthodox Christians only, just as the name "Croat" belongs solely to Roman Catholics. Technically speaking, prior to the conversion of the Slovenes and Western Serbs to from Byzantine Christianity to Latin Christianity by Charlemagne, there were no Croatians, only Serbians. The genesis of the term "Croat" or "Hrvatski" dates to the time of this conversion from Byzantine to Latin jurisdiction. They are the exact same people, along with the Bosnians, only each group practices its own religion (Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Islam) and speaks slightly different dialects of the same language. Hopefully one day they will all be reunited! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.237.10.54 ( talk) 23:55, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Ok, here are some article "facts" vs. real facts regarding Croatian Orthodox Church (COC):
Germogen:
Uniate church:
It is worth to read the whole article by Mr. Milos Obrknezevic, Serbian Orthodox, who was secretary to Germogen, because it is valuable first-hand testimony, and also Mrs. Fikreta Jelić-Butić's book "Ustashas and the Independent State of Croatia, 1941-1945". Plantago 14:47, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
In this article,the link that should link to the Croatian Orthodox Church Patriarch Germogen,links to a Russian Partriarch from 17th century.Please fix that
The link appears to have been fixed. Germogen now links to a page that has not yet been written.
Saugart 02:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I have attempted to tidy this article without significantly altering the content, by removing various repetitions and improving the English. I have also removed the Eastern Christianity box, as this article appears to deal principlally with a matter of Yugoslavian politics rather than Orthodox Christian faith. There is at present no link here from the article on the Independent Croatian State, which there probably ought to be. Myopic Bookworm 10:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Although Myopic Bookworm made good job in tiding up this article, the overall quality is by my opinion terrible. The worst of all are sources. There is not even one reliable resource, only some very biased pamphlets. As I know that PaxEquilibrium is very good in referencing, I'm asking him to find resources for his and other questionable claims, such as "church manager", "appointed by Stepinac", "inclined to Uniates", "defrocked Orthodox priests", "goal to...establish...theocratic and purely Catholic state" which are not documented in article. As it is now, it appears like putting equal sign between Catholic church in Croatia and Ustaše movement. Also, part involving leaders of HSP is not giving any reference, so it is at this moment clear WP:OR. Can we leave introduction, and and try to document first section without all that speculations? Also, second section about modern times would need more proper sources, there are just two, Serbian Tanjug and Grecian HR-Net, from the war times.-- Plantago ( talk) 13:53, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 ( talk) 01:39, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
Was first concived in 19th century. Ortodox people in Croatia and in what is now Bosnia became Serbs only after they got under jurisdiction of the Serbian Unortodox Church. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.252.252.40 ( talk) 10:07, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
Looks like this article had gone the way of the notoriously revisionist Croatian Wikipedia for almost a year starting with the edits of a banned sockpuppeteer called Ban kavalir, before I undid the additions and those of another chauvinist POV-pusher, which consisted of nothing but the most blatant historical revisionism, relying on the writings of Ustashe officials such as Krunoslav Draganović, to assert that an autocephalous Croatian Orthodox Church has existed historically, when in reality it was a wartime creation of the Ustashe regime to facilitate the assimilation of the NDH's remaining Serb population during the genocide of 1941-45 . I will be starting a WP:SPI against Mikola22 shortly. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 17:49, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
<ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page). There are records in the literature of the late 18th and early 19th centurie that point to the existence of Orthodox Croats. D. Teleki von Szék claims in 1795 that Croats were mostly Catholics and that to a lesser extent
Grenzers of Military Frontier belong the
Greek Orthodox Church . An 18th-century source after describing the fighting in which Croatian units participated, says that "there were three Greek priests with the Croats and two with the Hungarians. The Austrian writer Carl Christian Viktor writes in his book "Chronicon viennense" 1790 how the "Turkish Croats" invaded the emperor's land and plundered villages under the protection of "Pasha and Sanjak", while the "emperor Croats" in turn pursued those robbers and plundered the villages of "Turkish Croats". It can be assumed that part of the Turkish Croats are and Orthodox. According to Emperor
Joseph II (1785) in addition to Catholic Croats, there were also Croats of "Greek religion"this is what Mario Grčević, 2009. says in his book
[2]
[3] That the Orthodox were not all considered as Serbs but many as Croats not in the regional sense can be conclude on the basis of the national self-determination of their descendants who as migrants were arriving by ships to America via
Ellis Island near New York. Statements of emigrants were recorded by US officials or retrieved from shipping lists and entered into a computer database that covers the period 1892-1924. The database is available at the link, "Records that testify existence of Orthodox who called themselves as Croats and came from western and southwestern jekavian area exist in large numbers." this is said by Mario Grcevic and factual evidence is on Ellis Island register and anyone can see it, I looked at them and everything is true. Most Catholics of southern
Herzegovina especially in the central parts of the diocese in the 15th century or earlier convert to Orthodoxy. in the 1937 book written by Krunoslav Draganović there are dozens of original Vatican documents that prove this (ArhivPropagande) " Adolfo Veber Tkalčević in a book "Trip to Constantinople" in 1886 talking with the Balkan peoples that live in Constantinople and they mentione Vlachs. This is part of the conversation: Tkalcevic says "How Croats, but they call themselves as Serbs in homeland if they are Orthodox. The person from Constantinople answers "I do not know how someone calling himself now in homeland because I have been in Constantinople for a long time but everyone here either Vlachs or Catholics call themselves as Croats . It's a name from old times!" this is the part from the book of Adolfo Veber Tkalčević which says that Orthodox Serbs and Vlachs are called Croats in Constantinople or Istanbul. "Existence of Croats as Orthodox priests in the late 19th century testifies Serbian newspaper Srbobran in which was stated complaint that among Orthodox priests exist some "Orthodox Croats" priests." this is a fact from the book of Mario Grčević [4] This is a fact from various books and if someone does not like what i have to do with it. Otherwise Krunoslav Draganovic's books are published by Catholic Diocese Ordinary and this book exists in the Diocesan Library in Varaždin and other cities in Croatia or in Catholic institutions [5] And other historians quote Krunoslav Draganović [6] This doctoral dissertation also has Krunoslav Draganović as a source of data otherwise this dissertation also talks about the abduction of Catholic churches in Herzegovina that are becoming Orthodox(with Vatican historical sources) Just one quote on page 69, "Information about the transitions to Orthodoxy is also provided by D. Andrijašević in 1627. who says he is in Popovo because of the lack of clergy and because there was none bishop, 360 Catholic families crossed the Orthodoxy" source: In questa erano (Popovo) no[n] sono 50 ain[n]i appresso 360 case, et per no[n] haver hauto lor pastore né Vescovo sono trabuchate nello Scisma; et delle dette 12 Chiese sono 4. usurpate et occupate dalli scismatici maxime quelle che sono trabuchate nello scisma, et tutto p[er] no[n] esser stato proprio Vescovo chi potesse diffender le raggi oni della S[anta] Chiesa.“ M. JAČOV, Spisi Kongregacije…, sv. I., 75-76. etc,etc Everything is proven and there is no obstacle to putting information from various historians on Wikipedia. Mikola22 ( talk) 08:32, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
References
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
It served as a front for the Ustasha's in their genocide against Serbs and was canonically unacceptable. This is very POV, as almost the entire first paragraph of the article, and much of the rest of the article, too (Some Croats living in Montenegro support the idea of Red Croatia, and support the Montenegrin Orthodox Church to achieve their goals. Some Serbs see the Montenegrin Orthodox Church as being the present day incarnation of the Croatian Orthodox Church.).-- MaGioZal 07:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
How can the first part be POV? It is unacceptable under Orthodox Church Canon Law as it is a unilateral foundation of an autocephales Orthodox Church without the granting of such a position by an Ecumenical Council or a Mother Church such as Russia, Constantinople, Romania, or even Serbia. Additionally, it was formed as part of the Ustasha Nazi/Croatian alliance to liquidate the Serbs in the Nazi puppet state of Croatia. You are right about the latter bit, the connection to the Montenegrin Orthodox Church is weak. It only has the support of <30% of Montenegro (50,000) and it seems to be more Montenegrin Nationalist than Croatia. 71.240.138.137 ( talk) 20:24, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
-- PaxEquilibrium 15:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The biggest problem with all of this is that Croatians don't realize that without the Roman Catholic Church, Croats don't exist, just as without the Orthodox Christian Church, Serbs don't exist. The reason for the labels "Serb" and "Croat" is totally religious in nature. The name "Serb" belongs to Orthodox Christians only, just as the name "Croat" belongs solely to Roman Catholics. Technically speaking, prior to the conversion of the Slovenes and Western Serbs to from Byzantine Christianity to Latin Christianity by Charlemagne, there were no Croatians, only Serbians. The genesis of the term "Croat" or "Hrvatski" dates to the time of this conversion from Byzantine to Latin jurisdiction. They are the exact same people, along with the Bosnians, only each group practices its own religion (Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Islam) and speaks slightly different dialects of the same language. Hopefully one day they will all be reunited! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.237.10.54 ( talk) 23:55, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Ok, here are some article "facts" vs. real facts regarding Croatian Orthodox Church (COC):
Germogen:
Uniate church:
It is worth to read the whole article by Mr. Milos Obrknezevic, Serbian Orthodox, who was secretary to Germogen, because it is valuable first-hand testimony, and also Mrs. Fikreta Jelić-Butić's book "Ustashas and the Independent State of Croatia, 1941-1945". Plantago 14:47, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
In this article,the link that should link to the Croatian Orthodox Church Patriarch Germogen,links to a Russian Partriarch from 17th century.Please fix that
The link appears to have been fixed. Germogen now links to a page that has not yet been written.
Saugart 02:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I have attempted to tidy this article without significantly altering the content, by removing various repetitions and improving the English. I have also removed the Eastern Christianity box, as this article appears to deal principlally with a matter of Yugoslavian politics rather than Orthodox Christian faith. There is at present no link here from the article on the Independent Croatian State, which there probably ought to be. Myopic Bookworm 10:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Although Myopic Bookworm made good job in tiding up this article, the overall quality is by my opinion terrible. The worst of all are sources. There is not even one reliable resource, only some very biased pamphlets. As I know that PaxEquilibrium is very good in referencing, I'm asking him to find resources for his and other questionable claims, such as "church manager", "appointed by Stepinac", "inclined to Uniates", "defrocked Orthodox priests", "goal to...establish...theocratic and purely Catholic state" which are not documented in article. As it is now, it appears like putting equal sign between Catholic church in Croatia and Ustaše movement. Also, part involving leaders of HSP is not giving any reference, so it is at this moment clear WP:OR. Can we leave introduction, and and try to document first section without all that speculations? Also, second section about modern times would need more proper sources, there are just two, Serbian Tanjug and Grecian HR-Net, from the war times.-- Plantago ( talk) 13:53, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 ( talk) 01:39, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
Was first concived in 19th century. Ortodox people in Croatia and in what is now Bosnia became Serbs only after they got under jurisdiction of the Serbian Unortodox Church. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.252.252.40 ( talk) 10:07, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
Looks like this article had gone the way of the notoriously revisionist Croatian Wikipedia for almost a year starting with the edits of a banned sockpuppeteer called Ban kavalir, before I undid the additions and those of another chauvinist POV-pusher, which consisted of nothing but the most blatant historical revisionism, relying on the writings of Ustashe officials such as Krunoslav Draganović, to assert that an autocephalous Croatian Orthodox Church has existed historically, when in reality it was a wartime creation of the Ustashe regime to facilitate the assimilation of the NDH's remaining Serb population during the genocide of 1941-45 . I will be starting a WP:SPI against Mikola22 shortly. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 17:49, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
<ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page). There are records in the literature of the late 18th and early 19th centurie that point to the existence of Orthodox Croats. D. Teleki von Szék claims in 1795 that Croats were mostly Catholics and that to a lesser extent
Grenzers of Military Frontier belong the
Greek Orthodox Church . An 18th-century source after describing the fighting in which Croatian units participated, says that "there were three Greek priests with the Croats and two with the Hungarians. The Austrian writer Carl Christian Viktor writes in his book "Chronicon viennense" 1790 how the "Turkish Croats" invaded the emperor's land and plundered villages under the protection of "Pasha and Sanjak", while the "emperor Croats" in turn pursued those robbers and plundered the villages of "Turkish Croats". It can be assumed that part of the Turkish Croats are and Orthodox. According to Emperor
Joseph II (1785) in addition to Catholic Croats, there were also Croats of "Greek religion"this is what Mario Grčević, 2009. says in his book
[2]
[3] That the Orthodox were not all considered as Serbs but many as Croats not in the regional sense can be conclude on the basis of the national self-determination of their descendants who as migrants were arriving by ships to America via
Ellis Island near New York. Statements of emigrants were recorded by US officials or retrieved from shipping lists and entered into a computer database that covers the period 1892-1924. The database is available at the link, "Records that testify existence of Orthodox who called themselves as Croats and came from western and southwestern jekavian area exist in large numbers." this is said by Mario Grcevic and factual evidence is on Ellis Island register and anyone can see it, I looked at them and everything is true. Most Catholics of southern
Herzegovina especially in the central parts of the diocese in the 15th century or earlier convert to Orthodoxy. in the 1937 book written by Krunoslav Draganović there are dozens of original Vatican documents that prove this (ArhivPropagande) " Adolfo Veber Tkalčević in a book "Trip to Constantinople" in 1886 talking with the Balkan peoples that live in Constantinople and they mentione Vlachs. This is part of the conversation: Tkalcevic says "How Croats, but they call themselves as Serbs in homeland if they are Orthodox. The person from Constantinople answers "I do not know how someone calling himself now in homeland because I have been in Constantinople for a long time but everyone here either Vlachs or Catholics call themselves as Croats . It's a name from old times!" this is the part from the book of Adolfo Veber Tkalčević which says that Orthodox Serbs and Vlachs are called Croats in Constantinople or Istanbul. "Existence of Croats as Orthodox priests in the late 19th century testifies Serbian newspaper Srbobran in which was stated complaint that among Orthodox priests exist some "Orthodox Croats" priests." this is a fact from the book of Mario Grčević [4] This is a fact from various books and if someone does not like what i have to do with it. Otherwise Krunoslav Draganovic's books are published by Catholic Diocese Ordinary and this book exists in the Diocesan Library in Varaždin and other cities in Croatia or in Catholic institutions [5] And other historians quote Krunoslav Draganović [6] This doctoral dissertation also has Krunoslav Draganović as a source of data otherwise this dissertation also talks about the abduction of Catholic churches in Herzegovina that are becoming Orthodox(with Vatican historical sources) Just one quote on page 69, "Information about the transitions to Orthodoxy is also provided by D. Andrijašević in 1627. who says he is in Popovo because of the lack of clergy and because there was none bishop, 360 Catholic families crossed the Orthodoxy" source: In questa erano (Popovo) no[n] sono 50 ain[n]i appresso 360 case, et per no[n] haver hauto lor pastore né Vescovo sono trabuchate nello Scisma; et delle dette 12 Chiese sono 4. usurpate et occupate dalli scismatici maxime quelle che sono trabuchate nello scisma, et tutto p[er] no[n] esser stato proprio Vescovo chi potesse diffender le raggi oni della S[anta] Chiesa.“ M. JAČOV, Spisi Kongregacije…, sv. I., 75-76. etc,etc Everything is proven and there is no obstacle to putting information from various historians on Wikipedia. Mikola22 ( talk) 08:32, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
References