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Hello, @ Shadow4ya @ Theonewithreason @ Sideshow Bob Can this edit war be discussed with positive and civil results? I am starting to get tired of Sideshow Bob using terms such as "Serbian ultranationalist pov pusher, you are repeating a well known propaganda" along with doing an edit saying "nationalist propaganda". These are 2 recent pages I have noticed SideshowBob editing with such terms, most likely much more.. Anyways back to the topic, What makes this page nationalist propaganda? Actually, I just read your comment on your edit and once again with the confrontational insults, "this article is just a bunch of cheap propaganda". Can someone seriously warn this guy? Surix321 ( talk) 15:43, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
After the Balšić dynasty died out in 1421, the focus of Serb resistance shifted northward to Žabljak (not far from Podgorica). There a chieftain named Stefan Crnojević set up his capital. Stefan was succeeded by Ivan Crnojević (Ivan the Black), who, in the unlikely setting of this barren and broken landscape and pressed by advancing Ottoman armies, created in his court a remarkable, if fragile, centre of civilization. Ivan’s son Djuradj Crnojević built a monastery at Cetinje, founding there the see of a bishopric, and imported from Venice a printing press that produced after 1493 some of the earliest books in the Cyrillic script. During the reign of Djuradj, Zeta came to be more widely known as Montenegro., [ [2]], Vladimir Corovic says:
As the emperor did not want any conflict with the Venetians, he, seeing their insurmountable desire to get those cities, agreed to have his sister negotiate the sale. Seeing the displeasure of the Skradin citizens against his people, and hearing perhaps about the emperor's death, his duke Đuraš Ilijić handed over the city to the Venetians on January 10, 1356, as the emperor had previously ordered. The city of Klis was taken over by the Hungarians, there are also quotes from this talk page archive from Metropolitan of Cetinje:
Đuro Crnojević is celebrated among the Serbian people as a good ruler, and as a brave hero and military leader, who defeated a strong Turkish army on the Ćemovsko field, which was led by the traitor Staniša against Montenegro. In addition, the name of Đuro Crnojević is notable for the fact that he was the first among all Slavs to acquire a printing house, in which church books were printed on Obod in 1493, which were distributed not only in Montenegro but also in all Serbian countries. in order to preserve the Orthodox faith in the Serbian people. Some of these books, as a special landmark, are still preserved and carefully fed among Serbian antiquities.4. This source from 2008. [ [3]] or [ [4]] which has a title Genealogies of Serbian dynasties gives a genealogy of every Serbian dynasty including Crnojevic family, it starts with Djuras Ilijic and it says: Celnik Stefana Decanskog i cara Dusana, meaning that he was in service of Serbian lords.
@ Shadow4ya and @ Surix321 I would suggest that you add more sources if you think is needed, but if you take a look on the article sources of Fine and Kovijanic (I believe they are both open access) you will see that they are describing everything what article says, that the family comes from Djuras Ilijic, that their surname was Djurasevic then changed to Crnojevic etc. which means there are no justification for placing pov tag. Do you agree ?
On 7 September 2021, IP:2021 2a01:261:54d:6200:1029:b45:8371:6d19 through unexplained edit introduced this national label to the article, without proper referencing. Any one editor who tried to revert that anachronism, brought into the article by unexplained IP edit, had full strength of English Wikipedia guidelines and policies behind its revert - those who came forth against it, did not. So, this sudden change from neutral "nobleman from Zeta" to unsupported anachronistic "Serbian nobleman", started this circle of reverts and edit-wars, with sudden albeit quite usual influx of inactive on en.wiki Serbian editors (from sr.wiki), who supported this anachronism in unexplained IP edit to the point that issue became a problem. Maleschreiber tried to bring back neutral and correct non-labeling terminology on 13 January 2022, but that was, expectedly, reverted by editor Ничим неизазван, and supported by Theonewithreason, Shadow4ya, MareBG, Surix321. Botushali tried to do same (right) thing Maleschreiber did, but was immediately reverted. I find it odd, as often is the case, this sudden appearance of likeminded editors on issues of Serbian national and ethnic labeling across the Balkans history-culture articles. Sources referred to in above post are hardly strong, only Ćorović is serious enough, but used alone he is absolutely outdated. So, unless we have neutral, mainstream and recent sources suggest differently, remove this anachronism "Serbian nobleman" from the article, use fresh, strong sources, and bring back neutral "nobleman/noble family from Zeta". ౪ Santa ౪ 99° 16:15, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
In the autumn or winter of 1355, the crew of the Serbian emperor arrived in Jelena's cities. Dusan's army was led by Palman and Djuras Ilijic. The first commander entered Klis and the second entered Skradin. The army of the Serbian ruler did not stay long in the towns of Jelena Subic. Since he could not hold out, Djuras Ilijic handed over Skradin to the Venetians. The Serbian commander acted on this way according to the divine instructions of Emperor Stefan Dusan, not realizing that he died on December 20, 1355.page 557 [ [6]
First, until you understand that your "resume" is pure OR and SYNTH, you will continue to build up these preconceptions. Second, until you understand that your preconception on nationality and ethnicity does not works for medieval people you will continue to draw these typical conclusions, and I may add out of context entirely, because that Ilić is mentioned as "srpski vojskovođa" not as a Srb nobleman - he is still Zeta nobleman. (Please, keep your TP discussion in order - I can't tell where your discussion begins and where it ends)-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99° 11:53, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
I have found some quite interesting material on the matter. I will add them shortly. Alltan ( talk) 13:22, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
Here can, however, be no reasonable doubt that Stephen Crnojevic was, as Flavius Comnenus calls him, a " native Dalmatian," in the sense that he was a Serb. It is equally certain that he was the son of the Radic CrnojTheonewithreason ( talk) 22:52 06.July 2022 (UTC)
Francis Seymour Stevenson is unnecessary as he is outdated - he wrote in 1912, while Fine in 1982, and Kenneth Morrison is currently active professor of modern history of Southeast Europe, namely Balkans with a focus on Serbia, Montenegro and Bosnia, and a productive author. No serious let alone exceptional source is presented here, you are literally scraping Google in search for key words for confirmation of your POV and your bias - consider this to be also response to claims of POV on my part. Only POV here is anachronistic imputation of modern identity to a medieval people done by a group of editors, who would like to make Ljusić's worldview a mainstream, where medieval Albanian, Bosnian and Montenegrin (Zetan and Dukljan) socio-political class of people we label as nobility is appropriated into Serbdom through OR and Synth with obscure or nationalistic sources.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99° 06:47, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
There are no insults and attacks here, only now you are disrupting talk page by casting aspersions - this article belongs to a scope which is under WP:ARBMAC and WP:ARBEE.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99° 21:49, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
|
|
Hello, @ Shadow4ya @ Theonewithreason @ Sideshow Bob Can this edit war be discussed with positive and civil results? I am starting to get tired of Sideshow Bob using terms such as "Serbian ultranationalist pov pusher, you are repeating a well known propaganda" along with doing an edit saying "nationalist propaganda". These are 2 recent pages I have noticed SideshowBob editing with such terms, most likely much more.. Anyways back to the topic, What makes this page nationalist propaganda? Actually, I just read your comment on your edit and once again with the confrontational insults, "this article is just a bunch of cheap propaganda". Can someone seriously warn this guy? Surix321 ( talk) 15:43, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
After the Balšić dynasty died out in 1421, the focus of Serb resistance shifted northward to Žabljak (not far from Podgorica). There a chieftain named Stefan Crnojević set up his capital. Stefan was succeeded by Ivan Crnojević (Ivan the Black), who, in the unlikely setting of this barren and broken landscape and pressed by advancing Ottoman armies, created in his court a remarkable, if fragile, centre of civilization. Ivan’s son Djuradj Crnojević built a monastery at Cetinje, founding there the see of a bishopric, and imported from Venice a printing press that produced after 1493 some of the earliest books in the Cyrillic script. During the reign of Djuradj, Zeta came to be more widely known as Montenegro., [ [2]], Vladimir Corovic says:
As the emperor did not want any conflict with the Venetians, he, seeing their insurmountable desire to get those cities, agreed to have his sister negotiate the sale. Seeing the displeasure of the Skradin citizens against his people, and hearing perhaps about the emperor's death, his duke Đuraš Ilijić handed over the city to the Venetians on January 10, 1356, as the emperor had previously ordered. The city of Klis was taken over by the Hungarians, there are also quotes from this talk page archive from Metropolitan of Cetinje:
Đuro Crnojević is celebrated among the Serbian people as a good ruler, and as a brave hero and military leader, who defeated a strong Turkish army on the Ćemovsko field, which was led by the traitor Staniša against Montenegro. In addition, the name of Đuro Crnojević is notable for the fact that he was the first among all Slavs to acquire a printing house, in which church books were printed on Obod in 1493, which were distributed not only in Montenegro but also in all Serbian countries. in order to preserve the Orthodox faith in the Serbian people. Some of these books, as a special landmark, are still preserved and carefully fed among Serbian antiquities.4. This source from 2008. [ [3]] or [ [4]] which has a title Genealogies of Serbian dynasties gives a genealogy of every Serbian dynasty including Crnojevic family, it starts with Djuras Ilijic and it says: Celnik Stefana Decanskog i cara Dusana, meaning that he was in service of Serbian lords.
@ Shadow4ya and @ Surix321 I would suggest that you add more sources if you think is needed, but if you take a look on the article sources of Fine and Kovijanic (I believe they are both open access) you will see that they are describing everything what article says, that the family comes from Djuras Ilijic, that their surname was Djurasevic then changed to Crnojevic etc. which means there are no justification for placing pov tag. Do you agree ?
On 7 September 2021, IP:2021 2a01:261:54d:6200:1029:b45:8371:6d19 through unexplained edit introduced this national label to the article, without proper referencing. Any one editor who tried to revert that anachronism, brought into the article by unexplained IP edit, had full strength of English Wikipedia guidelines and policies behind its revert - those who came forth against it, did not. So, this sudden change from neutral "nobleman from Zeta" to unsupported anachronistic "Serbian nobleman", started this circle of reverts and edit-wars, with sudden albeit quite usual influx of inactive on en.wiki Serbian editors (from sr.wiki), who supported this anachronism in unexplained IP edit to the point that issue became a problem. Maleschreiber tried to bring back neutral and correct non-labeling terminology on 13 January 2022, but that was, expectedly, reverted by editor Ничим неизазван, and supported by Theonewithreason, Shadow4ya, MareBG, Surix321. Botushali tried to do same (right) thing Maleschreiber did, but was immediately reverted. I find it odd, as often is the case, this sudden appearance of likeminded editors on issues of Serbian national and ethnic labeling across the Balkans history-culture articles. Sources referred to in above post are hardly strong, only Ćorović is serious enough, but used alone he is absolutely outdated. So, unless we have neutral, mainstream and recent sources suggest differently, remove this anachronism "Serbian nobleman" from the article, use fresh, strong sources, and bring back neutral "nobleman/noble family from Zeta". ౪ Santa ౪ 99° 16:15, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
In the autumn or winter of 1355, the crew of the Serbian emperor arrived in Jelena's cities. Dusan's army was led by Palman and Djuras Ilijic. The first commander entered Klis and the second entered Skradin. The army of the Serbian ruler did not stay long in the towns of Jelena Subic. Since he could not hold out, Djuras Ilijic handed over Skradin to the Venetians. The Serbian commander acted on this way according to the divine instructions of Emperor Stefan Dusan, not realizing that he died on December 20, 1355.page 557 [ [6]
First, until you understand that your "resume" is pure OR and SYNTH, you will continue to build up these preconceptions. Second, until you understand that your preconception on nationality and ethnicity does not works for medieval people you will continue to draw these typical conclusions, and I may add out of context entirely, because that Ilić is mentioned as "srpski vojskovođa" not as a Srb nobleman - he is still Zeta nobleman. (Please, keep your TP discussion in order - I can't tell where your discussion begins and where it ends)-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99° 11:53, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
I have found some quite interesting material on the matter. I will add them shortly. Alltan ( talk) 13:22, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
Here can, however, be no reasonable doubt that Stephen Crnojevic was, as Flavius Comnenus calls him, a " native Dalmatian," in the sense that he was a Serb. It is equally certain that he was the son of the Radic CrnojTheonewithreason ( talk) 22:52 06.July 2022 (UTC)
Francis Seymour Stevenson is unnecessary as he is outdated - he wrote in 1912, while Fine in 1982, and Kenneth Morrison is currently active professor of modern history of Southeast Europe, namely Balkans with a focus on Serbia, Montenegro and Bosnia, and a productive author. No serious let alone exceptional source is presented here, you are literally scraping Google in search for key words for confirmation of your POV and your bias - consider this to be also response to claims of POV on my part. Only POV here is anachronistic imputation of modern identity to a medieval people done by a group of editors, who would like to make Ljusić's worldview a mainstream, where medieval Albanian, Bosnian and Montenegrin (Zetan and Dukljan) socio-political class of people we label as nobility is appropriated into Serbdom through OR and Synth with obscure or nationalistic sources.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99° 06:47, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
There are no insults and attacks here, only now you are disrupting talk page by casting aspersions - this article belongs to a scope which is under WP:ARBMAC and WP:ARBEE.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99° 21:49, 10 July 2022 (UTC)