This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Descartes: regarding the civil war prophecy, what would you think of moving most of that text into Prophecies of Joseph Smith, Jr.? Since this criticism aritcle is more or less a Wikipedia:Summary style article, maybe we could just have 1 sentence on the Civil war prophecy, and say "see Prophecies of Joseph Smith, Jr.#Civil War for more details." What do you think? Noleander ( talk) 23:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. Descartes1979 ( talk) 03:27, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I am wondering if we should also include a "Criticism of Apologetics" section - what I mean is - there are some things that Mormon researchers put forth as proof of their claims, when in reality they are disputed. For example, Izapa Stela 5, and Chiasmus. Maybe that is getting too in depth, and should be included in the articles themselves, but I thought I would throw it out there and see what you thought.-- Descartes1979 ( talk) 22:40, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
The User Rayhade has made some edits in the last couple of days - some of which have been good. However, maybe some of you have noticed, but a revert war started when I requested cites for some of his statements in the Prophesies of Joseph Smith Section. After he insisted on removing my cite requests, I put an Original Research tag on the section, and he has belligerently been removing that as well. A third party also reverted his edits back to my version, so I don't think I am the only person who thinks his edits are inappropriate. I have tried to communicate with Rayhade three times on his talk page, but he won't respond. In an effort to resolve this dispute, I want to open the edits up for discussion and see if we can come to a general consensus.
See Rayhade's talk page, with my messages. See my four edits that he has reverted: [1], [2], [3], [4]
Thanks for taking a look, and hopefully we can get this resolved.
-- Descartes1979 ( talk) 17:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
The notability and reliability of the sources on both sides must be established. Wikipedia editors should not engage in original research--it is bad for our community. All selfpublished Mormon sources going forward must conform with WP:SELFPUB. A lot of statements on both sides do not rely on Wikipedia's policies for their inclusion. Work within the framework of the rules. There will be less edit warring. I will give five days to cite and defend before I begin deletion. ClaudeReigns ( talk) 10:45, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
User:Rayhade, Wikipedia is not a soapbox. You must attribute sources and conform to our policy on original research. It should be easy to source these. Please come up with a source in four days. Please do not remove cleanup tags unless you have fixed the problem. I will continue to revert unless you do. It is your responsibility to back up your claims by pointing out the apologists who offer rebuttals so they can be verified. You cannot be "they." That is not the role of editors here. ClaudeReigns ( talk) 17:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Couldn't find a RS ClaudeReigns ( talk) 09:54, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Regarding this statement: "However, apologists[attribution needed][addressing the unfulfillment of Smith's prophecy of Christ's return] cite the same prophecy in D&C 130:14-15, which they interpret was contingent upon Joseph Smith living until he was 85 years old." The statement may be incorrectly worded to imply that Smith stated definitively that Christ would return to Earth by that time. However, according to History of the Church, Vol. V., p. 336, Smith says this regarding the statement: "I took the liberty to conclude that if I did live to that time, He would make His appearance. But I do not say whether He will make His appearance [on Earth] or I shall go where He is" The sentence from the article states that apologists cite the contingency that he would have to live until he was 85 years old, but it was Smith himself that originally stated the contingency. If anything, apologists would more likely conclude that the statement was fulfilled by Smith going "where he [Christ] is," although I have not yet located an apologetic source for this. Bochica ( talk) 18:05, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
The following articles are requested to establish the notability of sources at Criticism of Mormonism:
Articles which meet certain criteria could be featured on the front page of Wikipedia! Remember that some of the issues that the persons and sources listed have addressed can be controversial, so please remember to review the guidelines for such articles. Thank you. ClaudeReigns ( talk) 08:51, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
from http://www.lds-mormon.com/racism.shtml:
"Elder MARK E. PETERSON
Race Problems -- As They Affect The Church Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954.
God has commanded Israel not to intermarry. To go against this commandment of God would be in sin. Those who willfully sin with their eyes open to this wrong will not be surprised to find that they will be separated from the presence of God in the world to come. This is spiritual death....
The reason that one would lose his blessings by marrying a Negro is due to the restriction placed upon them. "No person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood" (Brigham Young). It does not matter if they are one-sixth Negro or one-hundred and sixth, the curse of no Priesthood is the same. If an individual who is entitled to the Priesthood marries a Negro, the Lord has decreed that only spirits who are not eligible for the Priesthood will come to that marriage as children. To intermarry with a Negro is to forfeit a "Nation of Priesthood holders"....
The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent, and then, of course, they have been persuaded by some of the arguments that have been put forth....We who teach in the Church certainly must have our feet on the ground and not to be led astray by the philosophies of men on this subject....
I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after. He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage. That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, "First we pity, then endure, then embrace"....
Now let's talk about segregation again for a few moments. Was segregation a wrong principle? When the Lord chose the nations to which the spirits were to come, determining that some would be Japanese and some would be Chinese and some Negroes and some Americans, He engaged in an act of segregation....
When he told Enoch not preach the gospel to the descendants of Cain who were black, the Lord engaged in segregation. When He cursed the descendants of Cain as to the Priesthood, He engaged in segregation....
Who placed the Negroes originally in darkest Africa? Was it some man, or was it God? And when He placed them there, He segregated them....
The Lord segregated the people both as to blood and place of residence. At least in the cases of the Lamanites and the Negro we have the definite word of the Lord Himself that he placed a dark skin upon them as a curse -- as a punishment and as a sign to all others. He forbade intermarriage with them under threat of extension of the curse. And He certainly segregated the descendants of Cain when He cursed the Negro as to the Priesthood, and drew an absolute line. You may even say He dropped an Iron curtain there....
Now we are generous with the Negro. We are willing that the Negro have the highest education. I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it. I would be willing that they have all the advantages they can get out of life in the world. But let them enjoy these things among themselves. I think the Lord segregated the Negro and who is man to change that segregation? It reminds me of the scripture on marriage, "what God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Only here we have the reverse of the thing -- what God hath separated, let not man bring together again."
Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood.... This Negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in their lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa--if that Negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.233.73.251 ( talk) 20:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Maybe I'm wrong, but is it even plausible that so many references in this article come from an eight-page section of a 200+ page book about Mormons? I'm referring to several references to the Ostlings' book, currently annotated as follows: "a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u Ostling, Richard and Joan (1999). Mormon America. Harper Collins, 278-285. ISBN 0060663715." That's 21 references from disparate parts of the article. Would someone with a copy of this book mind checking these references? If they all come from this book, then fine. I'm not arguing with the content. However, it appears to be sloppy citing. A good citation would obviously reference the exact page(s) in the book the content / quote / idea came from. What's needed is to clean up the citations so they refer to the correct page in the Ostling's book. Like I said, I might be wrong. Thanks a lot. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 23:56, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
This could be time consuming. I have the Ostling book, so I'll check these as I have time. Here's Ostling citation "a": Harper Collins published Mormon America by Richard and Joan Ostling which states that non-LDS scholars have concluded that translations of surviving papyri which they believe are portions of the source of the Book of Abraham are unrelated to the content of the book's text.
This is discussed in Mormon America on pages 281-282. The statement above is incomplete however - it does not mention that the Ostlings point out that LDS scholar Hugh Nibley (who was not a trained Egyptologist) had identified the papyrus fragments as being from the Book of the Dead and that this was published along with photos of the papyrii in a church magazine prior to the papyrii being examined by non-LDS Egyptologists. The statement leads the reader to believe that the church said nothing and that "non-LDS Egyptologists" concluded that they were unrelated to Abraham's writings, without mentioning that Nibley, a well known LDS apologist, stated the same thing first. Bochica ( talk) 01:27, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Ostling citation "b": Richard and Joan Ostling point out that this reversal of policy occurred as the LDS church began to expand outside the United States into countries such as Brazil that have large, ethnically mixed populations and as the church prepared to open a new temple in São Paulo, Brazil. This is found in Mormon America, page 95. Bochica ( talk) 01:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Ostling citations "c" and "d": The Ostlings further point to the fact that soon after the church received the revelation that Polygamy was prohibited, Utah again applied for statehood, and this time the federal government did not object to starting the statehood process. Six years later, the process completed and Utah became a state in 1896. AND The Ostlings also point out that soon after the church renounced polygamy, the federal government reduced its legal efforts to seize church property. Both are found in Mormon America on pages 78-79, and these pages are noted in the citations contained in the article, but they don't show up in the article text. I am not familiar with how this type of citation works. A technical error in the way the citation is structured? The pages are definitely noted in the article. Bochica ( talk) 01:45, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I have been searching and searching for a definition of the term "money digging" and cannot find the term mentioned except in the context of criticisms of Joseph Smith. As such, would it be going out on a limb to say that the term "Money digging" is Mormon critic jargon, something that Wikipedia strives to avoid? I think a better term would be "treasure hunting". Any thoughts? Can anyone provide a reference to the term "money digging" in a different context? Thanks. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 14:59, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I am cool with whatever wording changes you guys decide - perhaps " Treasure hunter" is more appropriate, and is a terminology that people will understand a little easier. As far as quotes go, this is the only one I have been able to find (lifted from Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr.:
A recent edit added the adjective "amateur" back to the description of a couple apologists, with the reasoning that "both of these guys are amateurs, neither having a degree in history, theology, or anything related to mormonism - they are well known as amateurs." However, if we apply that same standard to, say, Richard Abanes -- who (unless I'm wrong) is a trained dancer, with no degree in history, theology, or anything related to Mormonism -- then he would qualify as an amateur as well. We could go down that road but it just seems less murky to just drop the amateur word altogether. Thoughts? -- TrustTruth ( talk) 19:39, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Maybe it's just me, but I've noticed that a lot of the rebuttals that used to be existent in the article are now gone. I remember one in particular that I just noticed was missing -- the rebuttal on the Erastus Snow statement about women getting into the celestial kingdom. All editors need to remember that this article needs to hold a neutral point of view. We have already agreed (see the discussion archives) that this means each criticism deserves a rebuttal. This means we should not be deleting apologetic rebuttals, but instead should try to include and clarify them. Thanks. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 16:18, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
The following statement does not contain criticism; instead it is more a " wisdom of repugnance" appeal to emotion: "Richard Abanes claims that Smith had at least thirty-three wives, not merely seven." Because this article is about criticisms of Mormonism, and because this statement contains no criticism (and is not related to the statements around it), I am removing the statement. Abanes' claim would be better served in the Joseph Smith, Jr. and polygamy article. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 16:38, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Is this an article about everything that has ever been said? Some things that I would consider fringe criticism are given the same status as more legitimate positions held by majority critics. Quinn does not often stay in the middle of criticism and can be considered fringe on some things. Thoughts? -- Storm Rider (talk) 03:12, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
The restrictions in WP:SELFPUB clearly point out two exceptions to use of primary sources which this source violates:
the spirit of these provisions is to eliminate battle within namespace. Of particular offense in this violation of WP:V is the use of an ad hominem argument. You may challenge the inclusion of the source she rebuts, but the nature of this inclusion goes against even WP:BATTLE, and so will be removed entirely. Much better, if the source critical of Blood Oaths cannot be successfully challenged, is simply to find a Mormon source which addresses the criticism of Blood Oaths without disparaging the critic. ClaudeReigns ( talk) 02:08, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Regarding your recent edit, are we reading the same article? Siever never says Langone is a critic. He is simple taking Langone's definition of a cult and applying it to the church and to Christianity as a whole. By the way, that actually has nothing to do with the sentence cited in this wikipedia article. The sentence cited is only related to the opening paragraph of the Siever's paper, where he(and by extension FAIR) argues that critics use subjective definitions of the word "cult". Period. He's not saying Langone uses subjective definitions; he's saying critics use subjective definitions. He is using Langone's definition to argue AGAINST the idea the church is a cult. Therefore, the statement "Siever argues that critics use subjective definitions of the term 'cult'" is entirely appropriate. Inserting "psychologists" in place of "critics" frankly makes so sense. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 18:25, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
For inclusion in this article, we're really going to have to support Abanes as an expert of some kind, and I would hope it would be done at his article. Just a little embarrassed to be relying on this kind of "cult expert." ClaudeReigns ( talk) 10:03, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
The Blood Oath stuff was added by me, and was originally unattributed (I added it way back during the rebirth of this article, in an effort to fill out the content more accurately, and hoping that someone could find a source to back it up) - through the different iterations of this article, I think it mistakenly got attributed to Kim Siever. I have seen this criticism before, so it is just a matter of finding it, and as such, I think it should be included. I am trying to find some time to do the research to find it. Perhaps someone can help me out? -- Descartes1979 ( talk) 20:29, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
This is a criticism of Nibley's research, not of the LDS Church. Is this article now morphing into not just the criticism of the church's doctrines, programs, and history, but also a criticism of the research methods of one of its apologists? We're adding this while the heavy lifting of the article's criticisms is still being done by a former dancer with no college degree? (By the way, the unencyclopedic term "parallelomania" -- POV on its face BTW -- could aptly be ascribed to apologists of nearly any faith.) I suggest we avoid the kitchen sink approach here -- this section does not belong. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 06:20, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Wait a second - I think you jumped the gun a little bit TrustTruth. Lets discuss this for a little bit first.
"There has been an exegetical trend during the last several decades to draw endless parallels to text from the ancient Near East and beyond in an attempt to validate the writings in the Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price. The pioneer and leader in this effort has been the great LDS scholar Hugh Nibley. In recent years the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS) has continued this legacy. The number of parallels that Nibley has been able to uncover from amazingly disparate and arcane sources is truly staggering. Unfortunately, there seems to be a neglect of any methodological reflection or articulation in this endeavor."
As you can see from this quote, Salmon was criticizing the "endeavor" of drawing parallels in general, although he notes that Nibley was the leader in the effort. As such, I think that this is also a valid item to be included in the article, albeit worded differently. Until we come to a consensus, I am going to revert your recent changes, and try and reword the parallelomania section.
-- Descartes1979 ( talk) 02:40, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
You guys forget so soon - we had this exact conversation a few months ago, and the decision was to make the article "Criticism of Mormonism" - not "Criticism of the Latter day Saint movement" or "Criticism of the LDS Church". This article is already a POV fork - to fragment it even further would only cause confusion for the reader that is looking for this information. Why do we need to split them out, or rename the article? Why not make this the single comprehensive article to get a picture of the criticisms of Mormon denominations, thought, beliefs, practices, and ideology? Even if you guys don't buy that BYU and FARMS are operated by the LDS church, they would still fall under the auspices of this article in their own right as self-identifying Mormon organizations - so as the article stands right now, I don't see why there needs to be any clarification - it is clear to me what the scope of the article is. By the way - I also don't buy the length argument. Remember that per Wikipedia policy, Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia, and as such, "there is no practical limit to the number of topics it can cover, or the total amount of content, other than verifiability..." -- Descartes1979 ( talk) 20:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I invite someone to re-create the Criticism of the Southern Baptist Convention article. I started it months ago, but felt physically ill when I hit the "Save page" button on the first edit. I felt like by creating the article I would be indirectly undermining others' faith. I checked back a while ago, and the article had been deleted. Why the article didn't exist already, I don't know. There are plenty of criticisms out there. I don't know the persuasion of the regulars at this article, but if you have the stomach for it I invite you to recreate that article, or something similar (say Criticism of Evangelicalism) in the spirit of maintaining a Wikipedia-wide neutral point of view. I don't think I could bring myself to add criticisms to such an article; however, I could work to keep it honest, just like I try to help keep this one honest. Any takers? -- TrustTruth ( talk) 06:49, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
TrustTruth, you have initiated a POV dispute. Please "address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies" per WP:NPOVD. ClaudeReigns ( talk) 22:05, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: |pages=
has extra text (
help)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Descartes: regarding the civil war prophecy, what would you think of moving most of that text into Prophecies of Joseph Smith, Jr.? Since this criticism aritcle is more or less a Wikipedia:Summary style article, maybe we could just have 1 sentence on the Civil war prophecy, and say "see Prophecies of Joseph Smith, Jr.#Civil War for more details." What do you think? Noleander ( talk) 23:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. Descartes1979 ( talk) 03:27, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I am wondering if we should also include a "Criticism of Apologetics" section - what I mean is - there are some things that Mormon researchers put forth as proof of their claims, when in reality they are disputed. For example, Izapa Stela 5, and Chiasmus. Maybe that is getting too in depth, and should be included in the articles themselves, but I thought I would throw it out there and see what you thought.-- Descartes1979 ( talk) 22:40, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
The User Rayhade has made some edits in the last couple of days - some of which have been good. However, maybe some of you have noticed, but a revert war started when I requested cites for some of his statements in the Prophesies of Joseph Smith Section. After he insisted on removing my cite requests, I put an Original Research tag on the section, and he has belligerently been removing that as well. A third party also reverted his edits back to my version, so I don't think I am the only person who thinks his edits are inappropriate. I have tried to communicate with Rayhade three times on his talk page, but he won't respond. In an effort to resolve this dispute, I want to open the edits up for discussion and see if we can come to a general consensus.
See Rayhade's talk page, with my messages. See my four edits that he has reverted: [1], [2], [3], [4]
Thanks for taking a look, and hopefully we can get this resolved.
-- Descartes1979 ( talk) 17:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
The notability and reliability of the sources on both sides must be established. Wikipedia editors should not engage in original research--it is bad for our community. All selfpublished Mormon sources going forward must conform with WP:SELFPUB. A lot of statements on both sides do not rely on Wikipedia's policies for their inclusion. Work within the framework of the rules. There will be less edit warring. I will give five days to cite and defend before I begin deletion. ClaudeReigns ( talk) 10:45, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
User:Rayhade, Wikipedia is not a soapbox. You must attribute sources and conform to our policy on original research. It should be easy to source these. Please come up with a source in four days. Please do not remove cleanup tags unless you have fixed the problem. I will continue to revert unless you do. It is your responsibility to back up your claims by pointing out the apologists who offer rebuttals so they can be verified. You cannot be "they." That is not the role of editors here. ClaudeReigns ( talk) 17:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Couldn't find a RS ClaudeReigns ( talk) 09:54, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Regarding this statement: "However, apologists[attribution needed][addressing the unfulfillment of Smith's prophecy of Christ's return] cite the same prophecy in D&C 130:14-15, which they interpret was contingent upon Joseph Smith living until he was 85 years old." The statement may be incorrectly worded to imply that Smith stated definitively that Christ would return to Earth by that time. However, according to History of the Church, Vol. V., p. 336, Smith says this regarding the statement: "I took the liberty to conclude that if I did live to that time, He would make His appearance. But I do not say whether He will make His appearance [on Earth] or I shall go where He is" The sentence from the article states that apologists cite the contingency that he would have to live until he was 85 years old, but it was Smith himself that originally stated the contingency. If anything, apologists would more likely conclude that the statement was fulfilled by Smith going "where he [Christ] is," although I have not yet located an apologetic source for this. Bochica ( talk) 18:05, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
The following articles are requested to establish the notability of sources at Criticism of Mormonism:
Articles which meet certain criteria could be featured on the front page of Wikipedia! Remember that some of the issues that the persons and sources listed have addressed can be controversial, so please remember to review the guidelines for such articles. Thank you. ClaudeReigns ( talk) 08:51, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
from http://www.lds-mormon.com/racism.shtml:
"Elder MARK E. PETERSON
Race Problems -- As They Affect The Church Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954.
God has commanded Israel not to intermarry. To go against this commandment of God would be in sin. Those who willfully sin with their eyes open to this wrong will not be surprised to find that they will be separated from the presence of God in the world to come. This is spiritual death....
The reason that one would lose his blessings by marrying a Negro is due to the restriction placed upon them. "No person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood" (Brigham Young). It does not matter if they are one-sixth Negro or one-hundred and sixth, the curse of no Priesthood is the same. If an individual who is entitled to the Priesthood marries a Negro, the Lord has decreed that only spirits who are not eligible for the Priesthood will come to that marriage as children. To intermarry with a Negro is to forfeit a "Nation of Priesthood holders"....
The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent, and then, of course, they have been persuaded by some of the arguments that have been put forth....We who teach in the Church certainly must have our feet on the ground and not to be led astray by the philosophies of men on this subject....
I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after. He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage. That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, "First we pity, then endure, then embrace"....
Now let's talk about segregation again for a few moments. Was segregation a wrong principle? When the Lord chose the nations to which the spirits were to come, determining that some would be Japanese and some would be Chinese and some Negroes and some Americans, He engaged in an act of segregation....
When he told Enoch not preach the gospel to the descendants of Cain who were black, the Lord engaged in segregation. When He cursed the descendants of Cain as to the Priesthood, He engaged in segregation....
Who placed the Negroes originally in darkest Africa? Was it some man, or was it God? And when He placed them there, He segregated them....
The Lord segregated the people both as to blood and place of residence. At least in the cases of the Lamanites and the Negro we have the definite word of the Lord Himself that he placed a dark skin upon them as a curse -- as a punishment and as a sign to all others. He forbade intermarriage with them under threat of extension of the curse. And He certainly segregated the descendants of Cain when He cursed the Negro as to the Priesthood, and drew an absolute line. You may even say He dropped an Iron curtain there....
Now we are generous with the Negro. We are willing that the Negro have the highest education. I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it. I would be willing that they have all the advantages they can get out of life in the world. But let them enjoy these things among themselves. I think the Lord segregated the Negro and who is man to change that segregation? It reminds me of the scripture on marriage, "what God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Only here we have the reverse of the thing -- what God hath separated, let not man bring together again."
Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood.... This Negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in their lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa--if that Negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.233.73.251 ( talk) 20:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Maybe I'm wrong, but is it even plausible that so many references in this article come from an eight-page section of a 200+ page book about Mormons? I'm referring to several references to the Ostlings' book, currently annotated as follows: "a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u Ostling, Richard and Joan (1999). Mormon America. Harper Collins, 278-285. ISBN 0060663715." That's 21 references from disparate parts of the article. Would someone with a copy of this book mind checking these references? If they all come from this book, then fine. I'm not arguing with the content. However, it appears to be sloppy citing. A good citation would obviously reference the exact page(s) in the book the content / quote / idea came from. What's needed is to clean up the citations so they refer to the correct page in the Ostling's book. Like I said, I might be wrong. Thanks a lot. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 23:56, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
This could be time consuming. I have the Ostling book, so I'll check these as I have time. Here's Ostling citation "a": Harper Collins published Mormon America by Richard and Joan Ostling which states that non-LDS scholars have concluded that translations of surviving papyri which they believe are portions of the source of the Book of Abraham are unrelated to the content of the book's text.
This is discussed in Mormon America on pages 281-282. The statement above is incomplete however - it does not mention that the Ostlings point out that LDS scholar Hugh Nibley (who was not a trained Egyptologist) had identified the papyrus fragments as being from the Book of the Dead and that this was published along with photos of the papyrii in a church magazine prior to the papyrii being examined by non-LDS Egyptologists. The statement leads the reader to believe that the church said nothing and that "non-LDS Egyptologists" concluded that they were unrelated to Abraham's writings, without mentioning that Nibley, a well known LDS apologist, stated the same thing first. Bochica ( talk) 01:27, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Ostling citation "b": Richard and Joan Ostling point out that this reversal of policy occurred as the LDS church began to expand outside the United States into countries such as Brazil that have large, ethnically mixed populations and as the church prepared to open a new temple in São Paulo, Brazil. This is found in Mormon America, page 95. Bochica ( talk) 01:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Ostling citations "c" and "d": The Ostlings further point to the fact that soon after the church received the revelation that Polygamy was prohibited, Utah again applied for statehood, and this time the federal government did not object to starting the statehood process. Six years later, the process completed and Utah became a state in 1896. AND The Ostlings also point out that soon after the church renounced polygamy, the federal government reduced its legal efforts to seize church property. Both are found in Mormon America on pages 78-79, and these pages are noted in the citations contained in the article, but they don't show up in the article text. I am not familiar with how this type of citation works. A technical error in the way the citation is structured? The pages are definitely noted in the article. Bochica ( talk) 01:45, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I have been searching and searching for a definition of the term "money digging" and cannot find the term mentioned except in the context of criticisms of Joseph Smith. As such, would it be going out on a limb to say that the term "Money digging" is Mormon critic jargon, something that Wikipedia strives to avoid? I think a better term would be "treasure hunting". Any thoughts? Can anyone provide a reference to the term "money digging" in a different context? Thanks. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 14:59, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I am cool with whatever wording changes you guys decide - perhaps " Treasure hunter" is more appropriate, and is a terminology that people will understand a little easier. As far as quotes go, this is the only one I have been able to find (lifted from Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr.:
A recent edit added the adjective "amateur" back to the description of a couple apologists, with the reasoning that "both of these guys are amateurs, neither having a degree in history, theology, or anything related to mormonism - they are well known as amateurs." However, if we apply that same standard to, say, Richard Abanes -- who (unless I'm wrong) is a trained dancer, with no degree in history, theology, or anything related to Mormonism -- then he would qualify as an amateur as well. We could go down that road but it just seems less murky to just drop the amateur word altogether. Thoughts? -- TrustTruth ( talk) 19:39, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Maybe it's just me, but I've noticed that a lot of the rebuttals that used to be existent in the article are now gone. I remember one in particular that I just noticed was missing -- the rebuttal on the Erastus Snow statement about women getting into the celestial kingdom. All editors need to remember that this article needs to hold a neutral point of view. We have already agreed (see the discussion archives) that this means each criticism deserves a rebuttal. This means we should not be deleting apologetic rebuttals, but instead should try to include and clarify them. Thanks. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 16:18, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
The following statement does not contain criticism; instead it is more a " wisdom of repugnance" appeal to emotion: "Richard Abanes claims that Smith had at least thirty-three wives, not merely seven." Because this article is about criticisms of Mormonism, and because this statement contains no criticism (and is not related to the statements around it), I am removing the statement. Abanes' claim would be better served in the Joseph Smith, Jr. and polygamy article. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 16:38, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Is this an article about everything that has ever been said? Some things that I would consider fringe criticism are given the same status as more legitimate positions held by majority critics. Quinn does not often stay in the middle of criticism and can be considered fringe on some things. Thoughts? -- Storm Rider (talk) 03:12, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
The restrictions in WP:SELFPUB clearly point out two exceptions to use of primary sources which this source violates:
the spirit of these provisions is to eliminate battle within namespace. Of particular offense in this violation of WP:V is the use of an ad hominem argument. You may challenge the inclusion of the source she rebuts, but the nature of this inclusion goes against even WP:BATTLE, and so will be removed entirely. Much better, if the source critical of Blood Oaths cannot be successfully challenged, is simply to find a Mormon source which addresses the criticism of Blood Oaths without disparaging the critic. ClaudeReigns ( talk) 02:08, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Regarding your recent edit, are we reading the same article? Siever never says Langone is a critic. He is simple taking Langone's definition of a cult and applying it to the church and to Christianity as a whole. By the way, that actually has nothing to do with the sentence cited in this wikipedia article. The sentence cited is only related to the opening paragraph of the Siever's paper, where he(and by extension FAIR) argues that critics use subjective definitions of the word "cult". Period. He's not saying Langone uses subjective definitions; he's saying critics use subjective definitions. He is using Langone's definition to argue AGAINST the idea the church is a cult. Therefore, the statement "Siever argues that critics use subjective definitions of the term 'cult'" is entirely appropriate. Inserting "psychologists" in place of "critics" frankly makes so sense. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 18:25, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
For inclusion in this article, we're really going to have to support Abanes as an expert of some kind, and I would hope it would be done at his article. Just a little embarrassed to be relying on this kind of "cult expert." ClaudeReigns ( talk) 10:03, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
The Blood Oath stuff was added by me, and was originally unattributed (I added it way back during the rebirth of this article, in an effort to fill out the content more accurately, and hoping that someone could find a source to back it up) - through the different iterations of this article, I think it mistakenly got attributed to Kim Siever. I have seen this criticism before, so it is just a matter of finding it, and as such, I think it should be included. I am trying to find some time to do the research to find it. Perhaps someone can help me out? -- Descartes1979 ( talk) 20:29, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
This is a criticism of Nibley's research, not of the LDS Church. Is this article now morphing into not just the criticism of the church's doctrines, programs, and history, but also a criticism of the research methods of one of its apologists? We're adding this while the heavy lifting of the article's criticisms is still being done by a former dancer with no college degree? (By the way, the unencyclopedic term "parallelomania" -- POV on its face BTW -- could aptly be ascribed to apologists of nearly any faith.) I suggest we avoid the kitchen sink approach here -- this section does not belong. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 06:20, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Wait a second - I think you jumped the gun a little bit TrustTruth. Lets discuss this for a little bit first.
"There has been an exegetical trend during the last several decades to draw endless parallels to text from the ancient Near East and beyond in an attempt to validate the writings in the Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price. The pioneer and leader in this effort has been the great LDS scholar Hugh Nibley. In recent years the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS) has continued this legacy. The number of parallels that Nibley has been able to uncover from amazingly disparate and arcane sources is truly staggering. Unfortunately, there seems to be a neglect of any methodological reflection or articulation in this endeavor."
As you can see from this quote, Salmon was criticizing the "endeavor" of drawing parallels in general, although he notes that Nibley was the leader in the effort. As such, I think that this is also a valid item to be included in the article, albeit worded differently. Until we come to a consensus, I am going to revert your recent changes, and try and reword the parallelomania section.
-- Descartes1979 ( talk) 02:40, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
You guys forget so soon - we had this exact conversation a few months ago, and the decision was to make the article "Criticism of Mormonism" - not "Criticism of the Latter day Saint movement" or "Criticism of the LDS Church". This article is already a POV fork - to fragment it even further would only cause confusion for the reader that is looking for this information. Why do we need to split them out, or rename the article? Why not make this the single comprehensive article to get a picture of the criticisms of Mormon denominations, thought, beliefs, practices, and ideology? Even if you guys don't buy that BYU and FARMS are operated by the LDS church, they would still fall under the auspices of this article in their own right as self-identifying Mormon organizations - so as the article stands right now, I don't see why there needs to be any clarification - it is clear to me what the scope of the article is. By the way - I also don't buy the length argument. Remember that per Wikipedia policy, Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia, and as such, "there is no practical limit to the number of topics it can cover, or the total amount of content, other than verifiability..." -- Descartes1979 ( talk) 20:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I invite someone to re-create the Criticism of the Southern Baptist Convention article. I started it months ago, but felt physically ill when I hit the "Save page" button on the first edit. I felt like by creating the article I would be indirectly undermining others' faith. I checked back a while ago, and the article had been deleted. Why the article didn't exist already, I don't know. There are plenty of criticisms out there. I don't know the persuasion of the regulars at this article, but if you have the stomach for it I invite you to recreate that article, or something similar (say Criticism of Evangelicalism) in the spirit of maintaining a Wikipedia-wide neutral point of view. I don't think I could bring myself to add criticisms to such an article; however, I could work to keep it honest, just like I try to help keep this one honest. Any takers? -- TrustTruth ( talk) 06:49, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
TrustTruth, you have initiated a POV dispute. Please "address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies" per WP:NPOVD. ClaudeReigns ( talk) 22:05, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: |pages=
has extra text (
help)