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I have removed Defective by design from the list of groups mentioned as being "anti-copyright", as their is no evidence that this group is opposed to copyright per se, just the use of DRM as their homepage at http://www.defectivebydesign.org/about shows —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.174.255.69 ( talk) 09:27, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand this article - isn't it possible to be anti-copyright without being an anarchist? To be honest, I'm struggling to understand what the article is trying to be about. If it's about anarchists views of copyright, it should probably be called Anarchists' views of copyright (although I doubt there is a consensus amongst anarchists on the matter). Can somebody enlighten me? -- Camembert
Karl replied thus on my talk page:
Hi Camaebert- I was going to go to bed but thought I'd quickly reply- as I see it, anti copyright is an explicit political statement of opposition to the concept of 'copyright', as opposed to say, wikipedia, which is non copyright- perhaps a subtle distinction, but I would agree that one need not necessarily be an anarchist to support the idea of anti-copyright. In a way it's a statement about the ownership or freedom of ideas...
I used to put out fanzines/pamphlets and what have you years ago that displayed the 'anti-copyright' symbol ( a copyright 'C' in a circle with a cross through it), but being a capitalist running dog these days I do actually consider my work 'copyright' (such as my self published books or indeed the original essays from which many of my wiki artcles on organic gardening, permaculture, etc, are drawn) nowadays for reasons I won't go into now... Urg,clear as mud no doubt but I must get some kip- work tommorrow, yippee!!! quercus robur
I wrote this without reading the above:
This is one anarchist view of intellectual property. It's written in encyclopedic style, at least, but it is inaccurate in a couple of ways:
The article should be incorporated into libertarian socialism (or anarchist communism or anarcho-communism, wherever it ends up). However, it could get lengthy, so it's own article would also be good. This view of intellectual property is really a "communist" one, in its true sense; however, many anarchist communist and communist works are still copyrighted, so there is some controversy and possible hypocrisy to write about. -- Sam
SchNEWS [1] is @nti-copyright. It says it is "information for action! Copy and distribute!" -- Sam
Thanks very much to all for the above - I'm off to bed myself shortly, and won't be around tomorrow, but I'll stick my head in here Wednesday to see what's happening and if I can maybe improve things a little. I'm anti-copyright myself in theory - I was involved on the periphery of the Droplift Project and a lot of my musical work would not be very well received by the RIAA (unfortuantely, I have to eat, and so until the revolution, theory is not always equivalent to practice). However, I wasn't sure if this had an article's worth of material in it - too similar to copyleft, maybe; or else why not incorporate it into copyright. I'm still not sure about this now.
I'm still a bit troubled by this article (though it's better than it was) - it isn't really clear to me whether anti-copyright ought to be treated as a concept ("anti-copyright is the belief that all copyright laws should be scrapped") or as a kind of anti-license ("an anti-copyright statement is one which gives up all rights to a work under copyright laws"). That's more of a question of which angle the subject is approchaed from than anything else. I suppose one might try to come at from both angles at once. Anyway, I'm probably not making much sense - I'll go away, mull it over, and hopefully return with a clearer vision of what might be done here. -- Camembert
The normal legal way to declare a work to be completely free of copyright—belonging to everyone, to do with as they please—is to declare it to be in the public domain. This is mentioned in the article.
If something is not clear from the article, find a reliable source that makes it clear, and by all means integrate the info into the article (with citation, of course). :)
—
überRegenbogen (
talk) 15:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I read through the bullet points under "Anti-copyright movement" listing arguments against copyright and I didn't find any arguments along a line of thought that I've had (any suggestions on how to word this better, and does anyone else think this way?):
In the case of entertainment works, the existance of a work may not raise one's quality of life. Instead, it may only raise the bar of quality of life. For example, if someone makes a movie and I watch it, I may be no better off than if that movie wasn't made (I'll just find something else to do). On the other hand, if someone makes the movie but I can't afford it, I'm worse off because my friends who watched it are talking about it and I'm left out. So the work shouldn't be copyrightable or else its mere existance will make people who can't afford it worse off. Rather, people who have seen it should be able to share it with their friends freely.
No attempt has even been made to balance this article with counter arguments. It is propoganda. I have serious doubts about whether this article should exist in its present form. Something like opinions on the value of copyright would be better. If it is just about a "movement" it should stick to history, and leave the pros and cons to a more broadranging article. Oliver Chettle 03:15, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Add this to criticism- the no-copyright parties developed after torrenting became popular, so as a way of justification, not retaliation —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.85.153.162 ( talk) 05:47, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
It seems that the first use of "anti-copyright" described above is entirely the same as placing a work in the public domain. By relinquishing all rights to a work, the creator cannot enforce any right over its subsequent use (as would be the case under copyleft schemes. The second use of the term is just an opinion and a political statement, and thus eliminates anti-copyright from holding a place in the section describing the facts and details of copyright and related schemes. An anarchist can believe anything he wants, but this won't get any laws overturned. (Speaking of which, is anyone aware of an anarchist refusing to recognize the legitimacy of the law of gravitation?) User:Kradak
Isn't the article most incomplete without mentioning Debord and the SI? And waht about the history? Can somebody volunteer a candidate for the first use of an explicit anti-copyright notice? Debord put 'All texts published in Potlatch can be reproduced, adapted or quoted without any mention of the source in Potlach, which was published 1954-1957. -- Pjacobi 18:07, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Curps is keep inserting POV into this article and refuse to discuss. Amnesity 09:17, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
"it is likely that popular artists will still be able to make a living by means of advertising and product promotion, as they do at present or perhaps by busking, if that is the only option open to them." what on earth were u thinking whenever [whoever] wrote that? i think britney spears (or popular artist X) would still do stadium tours and concerts if there were no copyright, rather than sitting on a street corner with a guitar and a cap for the loose change of passers by.
How much money does the government (e.g. courts, police) spend on investigating cases of alleged copyright infringement and prosecuting them?
I am concerned about the introduction to this article that states that creative commons and copyleft are forms of anti-copyright, this is not the case.
Creative commons for example relays very much on copyright law to achieve it’s aims, as do many copyleft schemes (GNU, etc.). These schemes form legally binding contracts (Creative Commons licenses have been upheld in court see: http://news.com.com/2100-1030_3-6052292.html ). Copyleft could not exist without copyright and whilst it’s objectives are often misinterpreted to be in conflict with copyright (freedom of information vs the protection of operation is debate within, not outside copyright) they, these licenses, all assert ownership of some degree (CC the moral right of the authour) and are singing from the same hymn sheet no matter how out of tune they may sound.
To be truly anti-copyright the scheme, in my opinion, would have to address (or fail to address as the case may be) the rights of ownership with regard to IPR. -- DeepVeinInsomnia 09:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The word "anti-copyright" sounds very POV to me, because anti is a very negative word, so it implies that anti-copyright movements or ideologies or people are negative or wrong. I can't think of a better title at the moment, but how about arguments against copyright or freedom from copyright or I don't know...-- Sonjaaa 08:50, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
It should be called, "Oooh, that darned RIAA!!" Seriously, the article is in no way an encyclopedic entry defining or identifying a key concept. It is a thinly-disguised attempt at proselytizing the notion of removing intellectual property ownership. Look at the opening paragraph of the arguments in favor of anti-copyright: "The classic argument for personal copyright is to grant developers temporary monopolies over their works to encourage further development by giving the developer a source of income. Those against copyright suggest that income to a developer should be generated by other means, for several reasons..." That is a rather sophomoric staw-man attack. The entire thing is shot through with fallacy after fallacy. -Blutwulf
This article should in somehow mention evolution in everything as an example. I mean, do companies that produce cassette tapes have a right to use legal action against the cd? What about movie theaters that go empty, do they take legal action against the dvd or free shows? Or do bike creators get mad at people that develop motorcycles? What about newspapers and newsgroups/sites, 'snail-mail' and e-mail, glass bottles and soda cans, ... People should lay down arms when it regards to new things that work. In this case, humanity no longer wants to pay ridiculous prices for something they can hear on the radio for free anyway. Hasn't it always been so that new things are invented and old systems dissapear?
What about the hypocrisy of copyright, take the very first song ever to hit number 1 from 0 on the US Billboard Hot 100 chart (Your not alone - Michael Jackson) which, after 12 years of fighting in the court, has turned out to be plagiarism. Song turned out to be made by two Belgian brothers instead. Ok sorry I'm rambling on about other things, but seriously, what is copyright then? Being the first one to 'license' something and gain big profits so no one dares to question you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drakuun ( talk • contribs) 17:37, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Anti-Copyrightists are usually people who are affected negatively by it, these people are usually also anti-capitalistic, anti-WTO, and anti-globalization. For reasons, you might want to check out the critisism of WTO. -GW2005
If one considers that an artist or author may at anytime choose to reduce their output for any arbitrary reason, the argument that without copyright, reduced output would follow as a consequence is moot. Artists may reduce output while there are strong copyright laws in existence because their work is being heavily traded and merchants are making profits or for any number of other reasons. Therefore the argument that copyright is needed to ensure more work is produced is not valid. - Shiftchange ( talk) 21:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I've pared down the " Criticism of anti-copyright arguments" section. Before:
* Critics conjecture that in the absence of copyright authors and artists would be under-compensated for their work. As a direct result, they claim, many fewer new works would be created.
* Assertion that the ease of reproduction of intellectual works should not be taken as an excuse to legalize copyright infringement.
* Criticism of interference with fair use, such as may occur with DRM, should not be an excuse to discard copyright altogether.
After:
* without copyright authors might profit less from their work and create less of it.
This was soon reverted by Samuell, who comments "we need a better critisum section than what we have now".
The problem is that bullet items #2 & #3 weren't arguments or criticisms.
Item #2 is POV question-begging: "to legalize ... infringement" is a tautology, because the term "infringement" implies copyright violation, the very point in question. Translated without POV, item #2 might say "easy copying is not a reason to legalize copying" or more generally "easy X is not a reason to legalize X". Yet easy X isn't a reason to make X illegal either.
Item #3 translated without POV would be: "weaker fair use benefits are no reason to legalize (retaliatory?) copying." Which is logically equivalent to the trivial "higher taxes are no reason to abolish taxes". And "fair use" again begs the question because it presupposes copyright.
Item #1 needs no hedges like "Critics conjecture" or "As a direct result, they claim", since it's under the criticism section. As it stands #1 is more of an ancient no-attribution needed "pro-copyright" argument, rather than a criticism of the "anti-" camp. Such reasons probably belong more in a copyright article. -- AC ( talk) 07:43, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
It was not my intention to cause offence. The article was tagged as unref. for a long time (without anybody doing anything about it) and I tried to improve it: by adding a long string of ref. arguments and removing the unref sections. The article still needs a lot of work, and anybody is free to extend it (as this is Wikipedia). I am interested in consensus, and in creating referenced content in Articles. As per Wikipedia policy all content needs to be referenced and verifiable. If you feel that the A&B example is common sense (hence requires no ref) please feel free to add it back in. I am not claiming ownership over this article. What I tried to do is to create the basis for an article that does not need clean-up tags. I have tried to summarise and group arguments (e.g. in the name of freedom of knowledge), as well as providing cross ref to organisations and scholars that have contributed to the issue (which I am sure readers find useful for the purpose of finding out more information on the subject). There are a wide variety of arguments and angles taken up by anti-copyright advocates, hence the intention was to create a structure that allows for each of the arguments to be explored separately. As I said everybody is free to extend the article. -- SasiSasi ( talk) 20:44, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
This review is transcluded from Talk:Anti-copyright/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
This article does not meet the Good article criteria and has therefore failed. Issues include:
Please renominate this article once these issues have been resolved. Gary King ( talk) 00:40, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
I am starting to have a look at the ref and the missing references.
Regarding: Anti-copyright Groups and Scholars. All scholars and groups mentioned have their own wikipedia article and anything said in the section comes from their article (which is linked). Also, many of the listed scholars and groups are mentioned later in the article (with ref). I wondered if it is really necessary to find a reference to copyright for every single scholar and group; its possible, but a bit of an overkill... is there any guidance as per Wikipedia policy on this? Ta -- SasiSasi ( talk) 15:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
All done-- SasiSasi ( talk) 00:19, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Renominated the article-- SasiSasi ( talk) 00:22, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm thinking about reviewing this article but I'd like to warn the contributors and talk page watchers that I will very likely fail it in its current form. As of the current revision, I do not see a considerable amount of evidence that "anti-copyright" is a widely used term or taxonomy of thought nor do I see evidence that the myriad copyright reform and patent reform organizations listed can be gathered under this category. Anti-copyright, as described by a few of the sources linked, does not (in my opinion and in the opinion of some reputable sources in the industry and academia) accurate describe the various phenomena and groups assembled in this article. As such, it appears that a good portion is original research or original research by synthesis. Other portions of the article (e.g. the anti-patent part) appear to grossly misrepresent the state of patent protests and litigation as well as mainstream and fringe views on the subject. My recommendation is that this article be withdrawn from GAN, stripped to verifiable claims from reliable sources and built anew with a very limited scope (reflecting the limited scope of the term "anti copyright"). If it is desired, I can review this article and provide some specific points of criticism, but it is almost assured that I will fail it. Protonk ( talk) 04:31, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Also, the anti-copyright lobby has for a long time and to some extent still is outside the mainstream, so by definition you don’t find many anti-copyright sources that are peer reviewed and approved by the great and good… but as far as I know this is not the sole criteria for reliable sources.
The GA criteria are: A good article is—
Well written: (a) the prose is clear and the spelling and grammar are correct; and (b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation.[1] Factually accurate and verifiable: (a) it provides references to all sources of information, and at minimum contains a section dedicated to the attribution of those sources in accordance with the guide to layout;[2] (b) at minimum, it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons;[2] and (c) it contains no original research. Broad in its coverage: (a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic;[3] and (b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias. Stable: it does not change significantly from day-to-day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.[4] Illustrated, if possible, by images:[5] (a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content; and (b) images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.[6]
-- SasiSasi ( talk) 10:10, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Jclemens ( talk) 04:12, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Objective3000 removed the cartoon I inserted and gave as a reason: “A fat man surrounded by moneybags saying human rights are worth nothing is NOT illustrative. This is way out of line.”
Wikipedia doesn't make moral judgments on cartoons. The cartoon depicts a typical point of view of the copyright-opponents. It is a source of information on what the anti-copyright-movement is about. To give you an extreme example, this image is also included in an article, even so it is antisemitic. Just because an image is included in an article doesn't mean that Wikipedia favors its point of view. Please don't WP:MORALIZE. -- Church of emacs ( Talk) 15:50, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
I can't imagine why it would belong in an encyclopedia article unless the cartoon itself was important to the subject as a whole. I agree with its removal. Protonk ( talk) 18:12, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
The image is free, and illustrates the subject of the section/article. Free images do not need to be "notable" in any way, only illustrative. J Milburn ( talk) 19:18, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
You don't get out of NPOV by having an article like this one. "anti-copyright" should cover the movement associated with anti-copyright, it shouldn't have to repeat or amplify their claims. A cartoon like that one might be appropriate in a section or articles on "perceptions of copyright", but that would still be a stretch. And yes, a picture carries more weight than words, especially a political cartoon, which isn't designed to be a narrow and neutral summary of positions (rather, they are often designed to be the opposite). So I don't think it is fair to say "I can't really see the difference in terms of undue weight between citing the arguments of copyright opponents in the form of text and citing their arguments in a form of a cartoon." There is a world of difference. Protonk ( talk) 23:56, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
I think the "Creative Commons" section is more related to culture/social arguments: a passing reference to unspecified possible alternatives to current business practices does not make an economic argument. The file sharing section in the economic arguments is relevant, and could (should?) evolve into a discourse on " public goods". Ratbertovich ( talk) 19:45, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
This section is about ideas which cannot be copyrighted. The quote is not relevant to the article. Objective3000 ( talk) 13:35, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
This article needs a bit more consideration of the widespread libertarian opposition to copyright, at least so as not to give the impression that the anti-copyright movement is entirely socialistic. I added the non-scarcity argument, but it needs to more work (I don't have the time at the moment, unfortunately). Vox Imperatoris ( talk) 13:57, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Most of the groups in this article can't be described as "anti-copyright", per se, only a very few. Many are in favor of copyleft of software (which is in favor of copyright, fundamentally, in that it uses copyright to keep source code free, while a system entirely without copyright could still limit the freedom to tinker, by allowing distribution of binaries without source), fundamental reforms of the time period of monopolies granted by copyright law (Lessig and others) while not abandoning them all together, reimposing the derivation of profit standard for infringement to exist, allowing creators to voluntarily modify the scope and the nature of the rights exerted (Creative Commons), reforming DRM by removing the use of the state's coercive power in preventing disablement of such, etc.
I would split this article into "anti-copyright" to deal with groups who are opposed to all copyright, as well as theoretical and practical arguments made by these individuals, and "copyright reform" to deal with groups that are against the copyright status quo but are not against copyright all together.
What do others think? Katana0182 ( talk) 04:46, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
There seems to be a crucial misconception on the Austrian view on IP and copyright in this article. Rothbard as an example: Rothbard distinguishes between patents and copyrights. He argues against patents but for copyright. He states that patents are illegitimate because they are enforced by the state on an arbitrary basis, namely, that the first person to invent something gets the monopoly on it. If one invents something patented independently he is prohibited to earn the fruits of his work which is unjust. Copyrights are legitimate because they are a form of contract: If A produces a mousetrap and sells it with a (C) sign then it means that A sells the mousetrap with the permission of limited usage, that one cannot create replicas etc, which is fully legitimate as it is voluntary contract between buyer and seller. There is no single "Austrian" view on IP and copyrights. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cognaq ( talk • contribs) 18:26, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
In an edit summary I was asked o explain my removal of two wiki links in the see also section, namely Anarcho-communism and Antitrust (redirects to Competition law). Too many links is not helpful and will damage navigability, my reasoning behind chopping out these two is:
I hope this made my reasoning clearer. jonkerz ♠ 02:15, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
The entire Intellectual Monopoly section is a quote, and more importantly, a biased quote. This should be replaced with actual content, written from a neutral point of view.- Zyrath ( talk) 22:35, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
In the section "Criticism", it is said:
"According to a study by the Institute for Policy Innovation, a nonprofit, nonpartisan public policy think tank, piracy of Copyright material costs the U.S. economy $5.5 billion in annual earnings among U.S. workers, as well as $837 million in lost annual tax revenue and $20.5 billion in lost annual output to all US industries. Furthermore it estimates that piracy costs the U.S 141,030 jobs, two thirds of which are outside the film industry."
However, these studies may be dubious. See: A $13 billion fantasy: latest music piracy study overstates effect of P2P ("First and foremost, it appears to fall into the 'illicit downloads == lost sales' fallacy" [1] ) Now, I know they are speaking of a different article by the IPI, but the approaches used in the one cited in the Wikipedia article are the same.
However, at this point, I'm not necessarily recommending removing the text, as it is a criticism raised. Shrewmania ( talk) 10:33, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
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Couldn't it be said that the right to create mashups is an extension or subset of the right to quote? 68.173.113.106 ( talk) 02:58, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
An IP editor has added the word "illegal" to the description of this image four times so far. Every time it has been removed, but we should resolve this before it turns into an edit war.
I (and apparently several other editors) prefer the version without "illegal". It doesn't really add any information; as far as I can tell, it's only there to take a stand against file sharing. The wording without "illegal" appears more neutral. Obviously, though, 74.108.115.191 ( talk) really feels that the word "illegal" belongs there.
Here's what other pages using this image have as I'm writing this:
All of these look better and more neutral to me than the version with "illegal", but apparently someone thinks otherwise. What's the consensus here - should the image say "file sharing" or "illegal file sharing", or something else completely? Sideways713 ( talk) 13:42, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
The protest was not in support of illegal file sharing in particular, and omitting "illegal" does not imply "legal". But since we apparently can't agree on what the neutral wording here is, a natural question to ask would be... is there any wording we can all agree meets WP:NPOV?
These, as noted, have been used elsewhere:
Would you have problems with using one of those as the image caption? Sideways713 ( talk) 18:53, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
I have now been threatened by Keri of banishment for reverting attempts to remove nine month old, accurate text. Although I have no question that this would not stand if pushed, and have never lost an escalation here despite over 1,000 edits, I am leaving this discussion as I simply have no time to deal with such nonsense. Such is why so many have left WP. I point you to the three month-old synthesis statement at the top of the article. This article is largely based on synthesis and is obviously slanted to anyone not wholly swallowing one side’s beliefs. Oddly, anyone that attempts to bring balance is accused of bias. I have been pro code sharing since before most of you have been alive and have shared massive amounts of my own code over decades. Of course, my own beliefs are not relevant. My reverts were based on a minor attempt to remove one obvious bias in the numerous, repetitive, one-sided, WP articles related to copyright. Article update at WP has been stagnating over the last couple of years. Some of these articles still point to a study on copyright long-since recalled by its own authors. Articles on the TPB founders are all wildly out of date and now sadly inaccurate. As someone above pointed out, many articles include the same image – an image of a protest in support of criminals convicted of “commercial” copyright violations (commercial under Swedish law meaning for-profit), without bothering to point out that their actions were illegal or for-profit. If you guys want to push such concepts; supporting criminals convicted of stashing millions in off-shore accounts (verified by court audits) by criminal violation of the rights of others, is not likely to be effective. It just makes WP look ridiculous. Do you really not believe that there is not a better way to present this argument, if that is your desire? Or to present a NPOV, if it is not? These articles should be combined and balanced and refs to criminals convicted of commercial rights violations should be removed. That’s my POV. 74.108.115.191 ( talk) 00:39, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
Use Demonstrators protesting The Pirate Bay raid, 2006.. The sources for that images is quiet clear. The demonstration was against three major topics: The claim of illegal influence on an police investigation by an other country, as reported by news papers at the time. The shutting down of physical close but unrelated servers including those used by news reporters. And thirdly, the abnormal larger use of police budget on minor crime, as cases like murder/mass-rape has a average of far less budget and police resources. Neither of those 3 has much to do with supporting illegal anything, and more to do with the political details of that case. Belorn ( talk) 12:04, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
The Forcehimes paper, written by a student, appears to be unknown and unread except for the person that added it to two at least Wikipedia articles. There is no discussion of it elsewhere. It has no weight. Wikipedia has more references to it than the entire rest of the World. You do not become notable because you are in encyclopedia. You get in an encyclopedia because you are notable. This is Wikipedia SPAM and an encyclopedia should not be used in this manner. The article was discussed at length at Talk:Digital rights management. ی پیرحیاتی suggests it be discussed at Talk:Think (journal). Why discuss an addition to this article on the empty talk page of a stub? The editor even removed a sentence at DRM saying that this article, suggesting that it is moral to break the laws of nearly every country, is controversial. Objective3000 ( talk) 15:54, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
I asked you to refer me to a Wikipedian law or policy that justifies your argument. As far as I know, notability deals with entries, not sources. The source must be reliable and published. Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources explicitly says: "When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources". By the way, the article does not say that "it is ethical to steal ebooks". You may want to check it again, although the content of a source doesn't have anything to do with its reliability. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 09:44, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for your language! Please answer this question: Is it against Wikipedia policies to use this source or not? -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 12:16, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
I changed my addition to a kind of non-interpretative report. So your second argument is dealt with. As far as the first argument is concerned, the work is a peer-reviewed article in a journal sponsored by the Royal Institute of Philosophy in London and published by Cambridge University Press. The author is formally and officially studying ethics at the Vanderbilt University, so he has some kind of authority and also this authority has been examined by the reviewing process of the aforementioned journal which authority is demonstrable (and in this case obvious) to other people. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 14:25, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
Why don't you answer my arguments? "Wikipedia should never be the first cite"!? Where does that come from? This is a journal on philosophy and ethics and my addition also deals with ethics of copyright. What is wrong with that? We do not measure academic journals. They are already measured. Think (journal) is so notable and reliable that it has an article in Wikipedia. If you think it's not notable, try to put it in the deletion process. This is the wrong place for this discussion. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 16:51, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
Think Journal is a journal of philosophy and ethics, designed to be readable by the general public, so it is exactly suitable for Wikipedia. As far as its notability is concerned, you can provide your arguments for its deletion in its talk page. As long as it has an entry on Wikipedia, we assume it has notability. Here you can refer to the laws and policies that prohibit the use of this source. For example, where is this written: "Wikipedia should never be the first cite"? -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 21:16, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
And I AGAIN ask you to show me the laws regarding your claims. Where is this written in the laws and policies: "You should cite sources that discuss the primary source."? According to WP:SCHOLARSHIP, extreme caution was advised, because I used almost exact sentences of the article. For your argument regarding WP:RS, I said that the work, the publisher and the author are reliable. What else? Also ethics is a branch of philosophy. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 03:08, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
I have answered all your arguments. You are making your own laws. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 13:11, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
I believe an academic peer-reviewed article, published by Royal Institute of Philosophy and Cambridge University Press which author is admitted to the Vanderbilt University is worthy of a section in WP, no matter what it says. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 14:54, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
Please consider Wikipedia:No personal attacks. First, thank you for refering to "Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible." I accept this. Assuming it's a primary source, here it was not possible for us to rely on secondary sources and we used a primary source. What is wrong with it? Second, I don't believe it's a primary source at all, because the article has been reviewed by a journal that has published articles by such notable authors as Antony Flew, Nigel Warburton, Simon Blackburn etc. Third, I'm not interested in the subject of the synopsis you mentioned, but I don't see a problem with using it in Wikipedia articles, simply because it does not violate Wikipedia's rules and policies. Fourth, thank you again for reading this article, but as you may know, your personal views do not matter here. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 17:07, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
1. Does Wikipedia say "Do not use primary sources" or "It's better not to use them"? 2. It's not a primary source because according to the policies, "academic and peer-reviewed publications ... are usually the most reliable sources". So the reference to them is recommended 3. I showed the reliability of the source and author several times. 4. The article is not the "view of a tiny minority". It's a kind of question about the ethical aspects of copyright. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 02:54, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
If you are interested in other views, note that VoluntarySlave and Belorn say it's a reliable source. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 04:13, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Maybe it would be helpful to shift the discussion from reliability to weight? It doesn't look like either of you are going to change the other's mind about reliability, but perhaps we could get somewhere by looking whether having a section on ethical arguments against copyright results in us giving undue weight to Forcehimes's paper. My initial thought is that ethical arguments about the validity of copyright would be a significant enough area of discussion to reflect in this article. However, if the only source on ethical arguments against copyright is this one short article by Forcehimes, maybe there isn't actually very much debate in this area, and so having a section on it would be to give it undue weight. But, on the other hand, there are other sections in this entry that also appear to only be based on one source, so having a section based only on this Forcehimes paper wouldn't be unfairly giving this source more weight than other sources in the article. Ali Pirhayati, could you say a bit about why you chose this source as the basis for the section in the article, and if you know whether or not there are other sources that discuss ethical arguments about copyright? I had a very brief look in the my university library's catalog, and I was surprised not to find any articles directly on the ethics of copyright, but as I say, it was a very brief look and I may easily have missed some. VoluntarySlave ( talk) 10:17, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
I also thank VoluntarySlave. I added some other sources that somehow argue against copyright ethically. I only added the views against copyright to justify the reference to Forcehimes and solve the problem of weight, but other users can add arguments against the aforementioned arguments (arguments for the copyright). Also we should note that the Forcehimes' paper (at least the part I quoted) is a kind of question about the consistency of moral views about copyright and it does not prove anything, hence I think it doesn't make a weight problem. And in response to Objective3000, I should say that a paper on ethics does NOT need to be peer-reviewed for legal content. The legal arguments must be ethical, not vice versa. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 16:25, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
First, we are not talking about a section; we are talking about one particular reference and the ethical section is not anymore limited to that one reference. Second, the Forcehimes' paper is about the morality of copyright, not its legality. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 17:48, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
1. No, we are not talking about the section of ethics according to the title of the last two sections of this talk page. 2. Forcehimes' main point is arguing that downloading books and using a library are alike and the ethical jundgements about the two must be alike, too. This main point does not have anything to do with the law. 3. I myself said that I added one-sided arguments (also this is "Anti-copyright" article). You may add opponent arguments. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 18:26, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
1. The titles of the two sections of this talk page show that we are talking only about Forcehimes' paper. 2. Even if you show that Forcehimes' paper has some legal problems, it won't implicate anything, because it's a reliable source and your point must be in some published source. 3. In the first reference, As you recommended, I used a secondary source (Alfino's paper) for refering to two papers against copyright (Bringsjord's and Hettinger's). These two papers are obviously against the copyright. In the second reference (Warwick's paper), I quoted exact sentences from the conclusion, so they're authentic. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 19:04, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
It is correct to categorize my paper as a moral argument. Let me start by making a distinction between (i) the law and (ii) the moral principles that undergird the law. The focus of my argument was (ii). On the one hand, if we think egalitarian considerations justify libraries, then we should think that these same egalitarian considerations justify stealing books online. If, on the other hand, we think that economic incentives justify a prohibition on stealing books online, then we should think those same economic considerations justify a prohibition on libraries. The arguments modesty comes from this parity thesis. I am assuming you (the reader) think libraries are justified and accordingly, if the parity holds, are committed to thinking that stealing books online is justified. Though the upshot concerns (i) legality, the argument, to repeat, all takes place a the level of (ii) the principles undergirding the law. So, even if an argument comes out showing that current legal practices are consistent, this fails to address the argument at the level it operates. -- Forcehimes ( talk) 21:22, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Clarification. I made my last post before having access to Karjiker’s (forthcoming) article. I’ve now read this article. Karjiker’s argument attacks the economic incentives parity. Though I disagree with this arguments conclusions, it attacks my argument at the correct level – (ii) from my previous post. -- Forcehimes ( talk) 21:44, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Then don't make this a forum by writing about your personal views. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 21:44, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
And I showed there is no violation of Wikipedia's laws and policies. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 22:02, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
This is about "anti-copyright". Like economic and cultural arguments against copyright, I added ethical arguments against it. Others can add ethical arguments for copyright to copyright or to the section "criticism of anti-copyright". -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 22:15, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Well, that is a suggestion for yourself. You are definitely supporting a POV by calling other views "absurd", "hilarious", "silly" and "Absolute Bull" and also by deleting opposite views. You oppose the main point of Forcehimes' paper and you're trying to shut it up. When you don't allow other reliable views to be expressed, you are obviously pushing your POV. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 05:51, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm glad that you have reached this conclusion! -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 12:54, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Apparently this a reciprocal feeling! I have replied to all these comments. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 15:26, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Dana boomer ( talk) 11:27, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
This article has been renamed, without discussion, and is now seeing mass deletions of accepted text by someone with a clear POV who appears to have no interest in discussion. This would appear to be a problem. Objective3000 ( talk) 00:02, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Maybe the contents could be put in other sections of the article, or removed altogether? 81.233.196.43 ( talk) 10:19, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
User:90.203.193.86, You currently appear to be engaged in an
edit war according to the reverts you have made on
Opposition to copyright.
[11]
[12]
[13] Wikipedia users are expected to
collaborate with others, to avoid editing
disruptively, and to
try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.
Please be particularly aware that Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states:
If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing.
In addition, your other edits suggest a close association with the music industry. If this is the case, our policy on conflict of interest editing applies as well. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 19:15, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
Pirhayati is adding his own work to this article while refusing to discuss it. I have no idea what it says as it appears to be in Persian. Objective3000 ( talk) 12:36, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Let's go ahead one-by-one. Can we use non-English sources or not? Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 13:04, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
No. You are the suspect here. The Burden of proof is on you! Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 13:16, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
The burden is clearly on the person who is pushing his POV and offending others. Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 13:25, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Yes, three years ago. Please respect WP:AGF apologize for your behavior. Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 13:33, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
How can it be original research when it is published in several sources and I cited the reference? Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 13:57, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Conflict of interest does not say such a thing. It says: Do not add texts "about" yourself not "by" yourself. Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 14:09, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
I want to add the following text to the part "Ethical issues". It is published by the website "Network for Public Policy Studies" (it belongs to Center for Strategic Studies. Let's discuss it:
"Ali Pirhayati proposes a thought experiment for Forcehimes' argument: Imagine a very high-tech physical library in a (say) 10-million-people city. All these people are the members of the library. The library uses UAVs to send books to its members. Hence access to a physical book is possible in a few minutes after the user sends a request for it and after he/she finished reading, the book is immediately sent back to the library (by UAVs). Therefore, the library can provide services to all the population of the city with only 10 copies of a book, because the people who request a certain book at a certain time are not more than 10 people. Then, in this city, nobody needs to buy any books and a book which was to be published in (say) 10000 copies, is published only in 10 copies. Such a library is exactly parallel to downloading ebooks in all morally relevant respects. Whatever you think about stealing books online, you should also think about this high-tech physical library. And, since most people will think such a library is not ethically problematic, they should also think stealing books online is not problematic. [1]"
1. Because they are relevant. 2. Yes, NPPS is peer-reviewed. 3. no they are not discussed in independent sources (like other views in Ethical section) Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 18:11, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Calling what? Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 18:32, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
You're not right, but let's close this discussion. I think Forcehimes' paper is enough. :) Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 19:07, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
It's under no. 21: [ Höffner. "Copyright and structure of authors' earnings" (PDF). Retrieved February 11, 2012.]
The PDF cannot be found on the linked address and has been completely removed from that domain. I found the PDF on SlideShare, but that cannot be regarded as an official source. Furthermore, it is not a study as seems to be implied, although contains a useful comparison.
There is also an official article from Der Spiegel that mentions the same slide, available in English and German.
This is just a note. I have left the matter as it is for more experienced editors to handle.
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@ Objective3000: If the lede was too long, we can discuss what to cut. However, as for the reversion in general, I'd like an explanation for exactly what you think was inappropriate about the content of this version of the lede. It was an explanation of the viewpoint, and briefly looked at one example. That is appropriate for an overview of an ideology with many conflicting ideas. lethargilistic ( talk) 11:44, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
making society ever more free, more equal, more sustainable, and with greater solidarity. It could easily be argued that the opposite is true. O3000 ( talk) 12:08, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
@ User:Lethargilistic Thing is, Kinsella's opinion doesn't make sense. Yes, some countries have in the last thirty years enacted criminal copyright legislation. But it remains the case that nearly all copyright actions worldwide are civil actions - not actions of the state.
In my view, gibberish that is cited is still gibberish. I think it is counterproductive to include material that doesn't make sense - it won't help WP users to understand anything.
Incidentally, there's a huge amount of uncited WP:OR here. My general attitude to articles that are blighted by OR is to delete uncited stuff. BRD, someone reverts, fair dos. That enables me to ask:
Do you think that opinions that don't make sense should be included, simply because the holder is notable and citable?
MrDemeanour ( talk) 17:40, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material. Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed.It does not say that things that are unsourced must be removed. It says they may be removed and that things which are challenged must be sourced. And, just to cover the base, simply saying "I challenge every unsourced statement in the article" would not be respectful of other Wikipedians' time. If you plan to work on this entire article's citation quality, it would be more productive to follow WP:V's suggestion of marking questionable statements with improvement tags like {{ citation needed}} or {{ better citation needed}}, or perhaps at least attempt in good faith to find a corroborating source yourself. My personal philosophy is generally that progress toward the content's eventual perfection should be prioritized over minor problems in the current version. Most of this content has a clear path to improvement, so I'm fairly hesitant to remove things just because someone should technically go through and find better references. It's not pretending to be a Featured Article or anything. lethargilistic ( talk) 18:21, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
The creator of the new article may be sincerely convinced that there is so much information about a certain aspect of a subject that it justifies a separate article.. It's appropriate. I also agree that the status quo should be represented in the article. However, although it is an imperfect example, consider Socialism vs. Capitalism. The socialism article is not half-capitalism and does not respond to every point with a capitalist view because the article is not about capitalism, and the capitalism article is also not about socialism. Part of why it's not perfect is that I can't think of an argument against copyright offhand that hasn't at least been answered by a pro-copyright viewpoint, so there's almost certainly something you could add to each section to represent that viewpoint. That does not mean each section should be half-pro-copyright, as that would be what I consider false balance in describing opposition. Also, remember that there are several branches of opposition to copyright that argue for returning to old versions of the law, some of which were in place much longer than current versions, so they could just as easily be called a return to a "status quo." lethargilistic ( talk) 19:30, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
Alright, if we're actually going to do this, it would be better for us to actually set out a plan rather than delete a bunch of stuff and communicate through edit summaries. I think we should settle on the highest level organization of the article first. What broad categories of objection are there? I'm sure there are papers and organizations out there that would supply content for this high level outline. My understanding of the subject is mostly American, so my topics list will certainly weigh toward sources examining economic forces. It goes without saying that counterarguments would appear throughout; just because I framed these as questions for expediency does not mean the article would be making arguments itself.
Certainly weighing in favor of economic arguments as I expected, but I think we could easily fill in something like this. lethargilistic ( talk) 04:57, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Andrewa ( talk) 03:06, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
Opposition to copyright →
Criticism of copyright – This article broadly covers criticism of copyright in general, not just opposition groups, and the current title sounds like POV to me, particularly with the use of opposition. There are more critics of copyright than are there actual opponents (I for one think copyright is too strict and should only focus on protecting the commercial interests of the copyright holders, but seeing that there are practical uses in protecting such interests, I do not oppose it).
Gamingforfun
365 00:48, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
Onlyforwikiapps ( talk) 22:22, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
In the first sentence, this article conflates criticism of copyright with anti copyright "sentiment". Sentiment implies emotional response and is often regarded pejoratively, whereas most of the the arguments for and against copyright are based on logical reasoning, not sentiment. As such this label is misleading and possibly pejorative, it should be removed form the article or preceded with "regarded by some as sentiment" or words to that effect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.93.146.3 ( talk) 14:34, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
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I have removed Defective by design from the list of groups mentioned as being "anti-copyright", as their is no evidence that this group is opposed to copyright per se, just the use of DRM as their homepage at http://www.defectivebydesign.org/about shows —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.174.255.69 ( talk) 09:27, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand this article - isn't it possible to be anti-copyright without being an anarchist? To be honest, I'm struggling to understand what the article is trying to be about. If it's about anarchists views of copyright, it should probably be called Anarchists' views of copyright (although I doubt there is a consensus amongst anarchists on the matter). Can somebody enlighten me? -- Camembert
Karl replied thus on my talk page:
Hi Camaebert- I was going to go to bed but thought I'd quickly reply- as I see it, anti copyright is an explicit political statement of opposition to the concept of 'copyright', as opposed to say, wikipedia, which is non copyright- perhaps a subtle distinction, but I would agree that one need not necessarily be an anarchist to support the idea of anti-copyright. In a way it's a statement about the ownership or freedom of ideas...
I used to put out fanzines/pamphlets and what have you years ago that displayed the 'anti-copyright' symbol ( a copyright 'C' in a circle with a cross through it), but being a capitalist running dog these days I do actually consider my work 'copyright' (such as my self published books or indeed the original essays from which many of my wiki artcles on organic gardening, permaculture, etc, are drawn) nowadays for reasons I won't go into now... Urg,clear as mud no doubt but I must get some kip- work tommorrow, yippee!!! quercus robur
I wrote this without reading the above:
This is one anarchist view of intellectual property. It's written in encyclopedic style, at least, but it is inaccurate in a couple of ways:
The article should be incorporated into libertarian socialism (or anarchist communism or anarcho-communism, wherever it ends up). However, it could get lengthy, so it's own article would also be good. This view of intellectual property is really a "communist" one, in its true sense; however, many anarchist communist and communist works are still copyrighted, so there is some controversy and possible hypocrisy to write about. -- Sam
SchNEWS [1] is @nti-copyright. It says it is "information for action! Copy and distribute!" -- Sam
Thanks very much to all for the above - I'm off to bed myself shortly, and won't be around tomorrow, but I'll stick my head in here Wednesday to see what's happening and if I can maybe improve things a little. I'm anti-copyright myself in theory - I was involved on the periphery of the Droplift Project and a lot of my musical work would not be very well received by the RIAA (unfortuantely, I have to eat, and so until the revolution, theory is not always equivalent to practice). However, I wasn't sure if this had an article's worth of material in it - too similar to copyleft, maybe; or else why not incorporate it into copyright. I'm still not sure about this now.
I'm still a bit troubled by this article (though it's better than it was) - it isn't really clear to me whether anti-copyright ought to be treated as a concept ("anti-copyright is the belief that all copyright laws should be scrapped") or as a kind of anti-license ("an anti-copyright statement is one which gives up all rights to a work under copyright laws"). That's more of a question of which angle the subject is approchaed from than anything else. I suppose one might try to come at from both angles at once. Anyway, I'm probably not making much sense - I'll go away, mull it over, and hopefully return with a clearer vision of what might be done here. -- Camembert
The normal legal way to declare a work to be completely free of copyright—belonging to everyone, to do with as they please—is to declare it to be in the public domain. This is mentioned in the article.
If something is not clear from the article, find a reliable source that makes it clear, and by all means integrate the info into the article (with citation, of course). :)
—
überRegenbogen (
talk) 15:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I read through the bullet points under "Anti-copyright movement" listing arguments against copyright and I didn't find any arguments along a line of thought that I've had (any suggestions on how to word this better, and does anyone else think this way?):
In the case of entertainment works, the existance of a work may not raise one's quality of life. Instead, it may only raise the bar of quality of life. For example, if someone makes a movie and I watch it, I may be no better off than if that movie wasn't made (I'll just find something else to do). On the other hand, if someone makes the movie but I can't afford it, I'm worse off because my friends who watched it are talking about it and I'm left out. So the work shouldn't be copyrightable or else its mere existance will make people who can't afford it worse off. Rather, people who have seen it should be able to share it with their friends freely.
No attempt has even been made to balance this article with counter arguments. It is propoganda. I have serious doubts about whether this article should exist in its present form. Something like opinions on the value of copyright would be better. If it is just about a "movement" it should stick to history, and leave the pros and cons to a more broadranging article. Oliver Chettle 03:15, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Add this to criticism- the no-copyright parties developed after torrenting became popular, so as a way of justification, not retaliation —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.85.153.162 ( talk) 05:47, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
It seems that the first use of "anti-copyright" described above is entirely the same as placing a work in the public domain. By relinquishing all rights to a work, the creator cannot enforce any right over its subsequent use (as would be the case under copyleft schemes. The second use of the term is just an opinion and a political statement, and thus eliminates anti-copyright from holding a place in the section describing the facts and details of copyright and related schemes. An anarchist can believe anything he wants, but this won't get any laws overturned. (Speaking of which, is anyone aware of an anarchist refusing to recognize the legitimacy of the law of gravitation?) User:Kradak
Isn't the article most incomplete without mentioning Debord and the SI? And waht about the history? Can somebody volunteer a candidate for the first use of an explicit anti-copyright notice? Debord put 'All texts published in Potlatch can be reproduced, adapted or quoted without any mention of the source in Potlach, which was published 1954-1957. -- Pjacobi 18:07, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Curps is keep inserting POV into this article and refuse to discuss. Amnesity 09:17, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
"it is likely that popular artists will still be able to make a living by means of advertising and product promotion, as they do at present or perhaps by busking, if that is the only option open to them." what on earth were u thinking whenever [whoever] wrote that? i think britney spears (or popular artist X) would still do stadium tours and concerts if there were no copyright, rather than sitting on a street corner with a guitar and a cap for the loose change of passers by.
How much money does the government (e.g. courts, police) spend on investigating cases of alleged copyright infringement and prosecuting them?
I am concerned about the introduction to this article that states that creative commons and copyleft are forms of anti-copyright, this is not the case.
Creative commons for example relays very much on copyright law to achieve it’s aims, as do many copyleft schemes (GNU, etc.). These schemes form legally binding contracts (Creative Commons licenses have been upheld in court see: http://news.com.com/2100-1030_3-6052292.html ). Copyleft could not exist without copyright and whilst it’s objectives are often misinterpreted to be in conflict with copyright (freedom of information vs the protection of operation is debate within, not outside copyright) they, these licenses, all assert ownership of some degree (CC the moral right of the authour) and are singing from the same hymn sheet no matter how out of tune they may sound.
To be truly anti-copyright the scheme, in my opinion, would have to address (or fail to address as the case may be) the rights of ownership with regard to IPR. -- DeepVeinInsomnia 09:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The word "anti-copyright" sounds very POV to me, because anti is a very negative word, so it implies that anti-copyright movements or ideologies or people are negative or wrong. I can't think of a better title at the moment, but how about arguments against copyright or freedom from copyright or I don't know...-- Sonjaaa 08:50, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
It should be called, "Oooh, that darned RIAA!!" Seriously, the article is in no way an encyclopedic entry defining or identifying a key concept. It is a thinly-disguised attempt at proselytizing the notion of removing intellectual property ownership. Look at the opening paragraph of the arguments in favor of anti-copyright: "The classic argument for personal copyright is to grant developers temporary monopolies over their works to encourage further development by giving the developer a source of income. Those against copyright suggest that income to a developer should be generated by other means, for several reasons..." That is a rather sophomoric staw-man attack. The entire thing is shot through with fallacy after fallacy. -Blutwulf
This article should in somehow mention evolution in everything as an example. I mean, do companies that produce cassette tapes have a right to use legal action against the cd? What about movie theaters that go empty, do they take legal action against the dvd or free shows? Or do bike creators get mad at people that develop motorcycles? What about newspapers and newsgroups/sites, 'snail-mail' and e-mail, glass bottles and soda cans, ... People should lay down arms when it regards to new things that work. In this case, humanity no longer wants to pay ridiculous prices for something they can hear on the radio for free anyway. Hasn't it always been so that new things are invented and old systems dissapear?
What about the hypocrisy of copyright, take the very first song ever to hit number 1 from 0 on the US Billboard Hot 100 chart (Your not alone - Michael Jackson) which, after 12 years of fighting in the court, has turned out to be plagiarism. Song turned out to be made by two Belgian brothers instead. Ok sorry I'm rambling on about other things, but seriously, what is copyright then? Being the first one to 'license' something and gain big profits so no one dares to question you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drakuun ( talk • contribs) 17:37, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Anti-Copyrightists are usually people who are affected negatively by it, these people are usually also anti-capitalistic, anti-WTO, and anti-globalization. For reasons, you might want to check out the critisism of WTO. -GW2005
If one considers that an artist or author may at anytime choose to reduce their output for any arbitrary reason, the argument that without copyright, reduced output would follow as a consequence is moot. Artists may reduce output while there are strong copyright laws in existence because their work is being heavily traded and merchants are making profits or for any number of other reasons. Therefore the argument that copyright is needed to ensure more work is produced is not valid. - Shiftchange ( talk) 21:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I've pared down the " Criticism of anti-copyright arguments" section. Before:
* Critics conjecture that in the absence of copyright authors and artists would be under-compensated for their work. As a direct result, they claim, many fewer new works would be created.
* Assertion that the ease of reproduction of intellectual works should not be taken as an excuse to legalize copyright infringement.
* Criticism of interference with fair use, such as may occur with DRM, should not be an excuse to discard copyright altogether.
After:
* without copyright authors might profit less from their work and create less of it.
This was soon reverted by Samuell, who comments "we need a better critisum section than what we have now".
The problem is that bullet items #2 & #3 weren't arguments or criticisms.
Item #2 is POV question-begging: "to legalize ... infringement" is a tautology, because the term "infringement" implies copyright violation, the very point in question. Translated without POV, item #2 might say "easy copying is not a reason to legalize copying" or more generally "easy X is not a reason to legalize X". Yet easy X isn't a reason to make X illegal either.
Item #3 translated without POV would be: "weaker fair use benefits are no reason to legalize (retaliatory?) copying." Which is logically equivalent to the trivial "higher taxes are no reason to abolish taxes". And "fair use" again begs the question because it presupposes copyright.
Item #1 needs no hedges like "Critics conjecture" or "As a direct result, they claim", since it's under the criticism section. As it stands #1 is more of an ancient no-attribution needed "pro-copyright" argument, rather than a criticism of the "anti-" camp. Such reasons probably belong more in a copyright article. -- AC ( talk) 07:43, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
It was not my intention to cause offence. The article was tagged as unref. for a long time (without anybody doing anything about it) and I tried to improve it: by adding a long string of ref. arguments and removing the unref sections. The article still needs a lot of work, and anybody is free to extend it (as this is Wikipedia). I am interested in consensus, and in creating referenced content in Articles. As per Wikipedia policy all content needs to be referenced and verifiable. If you feel that the A&B example is common sense (hence requires no ref) please feel free to add it back in. I am not claiming ownership over this article. What I tried to do is to create the basis for an article that does not need clean-up tags. I have tried to summarise and group arguments (e.g. in the name of freedom of knowledge), as well as providing cross ref to organisations and scholars that have contributed to the issue (which I am sure readers find useful for the purpose of finding out more information on the subject). There are a wide variety of arguments and angles taken up by anti-copyright advocates, hence the intention was to create a structure that allows for each of the arguments to be explored separately. As I said everybody is free to extend the article. -- SasiSasi ( talk) 20:44, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
This review is transcluded from Talk:Anti-copyright/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
This article does not meet the Good article criteria and has therefore failed. Issues include:
Please renominate this article once these issues have been resolved. Gary King ( talk) 00:40, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
I am starting to have a look at the ref and the missing references.
Regarding: Anti-copyright Groups and Scholars. All scholars and groups mentioned have their own wikipedia article and anything said in the section comes from their article (which is linked). Also, many of the listed scholars and groups are mentioned later in the article (with ref). I wondered if it is really necessary to find a reference to copyright for every single scholar and group; its possible, but a bit of an overkill... is there any guidance as per Wikipedia policy on this? Ta -- SasiSasi ( talk) 15:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
All done-- SasiSasi ( talk) 00:19, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Renominated the article-- SasiSasi ( talk) 00:22, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm thinking about reviewing this article but I'd like to warn the contributors and talk page watchers that I will very likely fail it in its current form. As of the current revision, I do not see a considerable amount of evidence that "anti-copyright" is a widely used term or taxonomy of thought nor do I see evidence that the myriad copyright reform and patent reform organizations listed can be gathered under this category. Anti-copyright, as described by a few of the sources linked, does not (in my opinion and in the opinion of some reputable sources in the industry and academia) accurate describe the various phenomena and groups assembled in this article. As such, it appears that a good portion is original research or original research by synthesis. Other portions of the article (e.g. the anti-patent part) appear to grossly misrepresent the state of patent protests and litigation as well as mainstream and fringe views on the subject. My recommendation is that this article be withdrawn from GAN, stripped to verifiable claims from reliable sources and built anew with a very limited scope (reflecting the limited scope of the term "anti copyright"). If it is desired, I can review this article and provide some specific points of criticism, but it is almost assured that I will fail it. Protonk ( talk) 04:31, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Also, the anti-copyright lobby has for a long time and to some extent still is outside the mainstream, so by definition you don’t find many anti-copyright sources that are peer reviewed and approved by the great and good… but as far as I know this is not the sole criteria for reliable sources.
The GA criteria are: A good article is—
Well written: (a) the prose is clear and the spelling and grammar are correct; and (b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation.[1] Factually accurate and verifiable: (a) it provides references to all sources of information, and at minimum contains a section dedicated to the attribution of those sources in accordance with the guide to layout;[2] (b) at minimum, it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons;[2] and (c) it contains no original research. Broad in its coverage: (a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic;[3] and (b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias. Stable: it does not change significantly from day-to-day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.[4] Illustrated, if possible, by images:[5] (a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content; and (b) images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.[6]
-- SasiSasi ( talk) 10:10, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Jclemens ( talk) 04:12, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Objective3000 removed the cartoon I inserted and gave as a reason: “A fat man surrounded by moneybags saying human rights are worth nothing is NOT illustrative. This is way out of line.”
Wikipedia doesn't make moral judgments on cartoons. The cartoon depicts a typical point of view of the copyright-opponents. It is a source of information on what the anti-copyright-movement is about. To give you an extreme example, this image is also included in an article, even so it is antisemitic. Just because an image is included in an article doesn't mean that Wikipedia favors its point of view. Please don't WP:MORALIZE. -- Church of emacs ( Talk) 15:50, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
I can't imagine why it would belong in an encyclopedia article unless the cartoon itself was important to the subject as a whole. I agree with its removal. Protonk ( talk) 18:12, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
The image is free, and illustrates the subject of the section/article. Free images do not need to be "notable" in any way, only illustrative. J Milburn ( talk) 19:18, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
You don't get out of NPOV by having an article like this one. "anti-copyright" should cover the movement associated with anti-copyright, it shouldn't have to repeat or amplify their claims. A cartoon like that one might be appropriate in a section or articles on "perceptions of copyright", but that would still be a stretch. And yes, a picture carries more weight than words, especially a political cartoon, which isn't designed to be a narrow and neutral summary of positions (rather, they are often designed to be the opposite). So I don't think it is fair to say "I can't really see the difference in terms of undue weight between citing the arguments of copyright opponents in the form of text and citing their arguments in a form of a cartoon." There is a world of difference. Protonk ( talk) 23:56, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
I think the "Creative Commons" section is more related to culture/social arguments: a passing reference to unspecified possible alternatives to current business practices does not make an economic argument. The file sharing section in the economic arguments is relevant, and could (should?) evolve into a discourse on " public goods". Ratbertovich ( talk) 19:45, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
This section is about ideas which cannot be copyrighted. The quote is not relevant to the article. Objective3000 ( talk) 13:35, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
This article needs a bit more consideration of the widespread libertarian opposition to copyright, at least so as not to give the impression that the anti-copyright movement is entirely socialistic. I added the non-scarcity argument, but it needs to more work (I don't have the time at the moment, unfortunately). Vox Imperatoris ( talk) 13:57, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Most of the groups in this article can't be described as "anti-copyright", per se, only a very few. Many are in favor of copyleft of software (which is in favor of copyright, fundamentally, in that it uses copyright to keep source code free, while a system entirely without copyright could still limit the freedom to tinker, by allowing distribution of binaries without source), fundamental reforms of the time period of monopolies granted by copyright law (Lessig and others) while not abandoning them all together, reimposing the derivation of profit standard for infringement to exist, allowing creators to voluntarily modify the scope and the nature of the rights exerted (Creative Commons), reforming DRM by removing the use of the state's coercive power in preventing disablement of such, etc.
I would split this article into "anti-copyright" to deal with groups who are opposed to all copyright, as well as theoretical and practical arguments made by these individuals, and "copyright reform" to deal with groups that are against the copyright status quo but are not against copyright all together.
What do others think? Katana0182 ( talk) 04:46, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
There seems to be a crucial misconception on the Austrian view on IP and copyright in this article. Rothbard as an example: Rothbard distinguishes between patents and copyrights. He argues against patents but for copyright. He states that patents are illegitimate because they are enforced by the state on an arbitrary basis, namely, that the first person to invent something gets the monopoly on it. If one invents something patented independently he is prohibited to earn the fruits of his work which is unjust. Copyrights are legitimate because they are a form of contract: If A produces a mousetrap and sells it with a (C) sign then it means that A sells the mousetrap with the permission of limited usage, that one cannot create replicas etc, which is fully legitimate as it is voluntary contract between buyer and seller. There is no single "Austrian" view on IP and copyrights. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cognaq ( talk • contribs) 18:26, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
In an edit summary I was asked o explain my removal of two wiki links in the see also section, namely Anarcho-communism and Antitrust (redirects to Competition law). Too many links is not helpful and will damage navigability, my reasoning behind chopping out these two is:
I hope this made my reasoning clearer. jonkerz ♠ 02:15, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
The entire Intellectual Monopoly section is a quote, and more importantly, a biased quote. This should be replaced with actual content, written from a neutral point of view.- Zyrath ( talk) 22:35, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
In the section "Criticism", it is said:
"According to a study by the Institute for Policy Innovation, a nonprofit, nonpartisan public policy think tank, piracy of Copyright material costs the U.S. economy $5.5 billion in annual earnings among U.S. workers, as well as $837 million in lost annual tax revenue and $20.5 billion in lost annual output to all US industries. Furthermore it estimates that piracy costs the U.S 141,030 jobs, two thirds of which are outside the film industry."
However, these studies may be dubious. See: A $13 billion fantasy: latest music piracy study overstates effect of P2P ("First and foremost, it appears to fall into the 'illicit downloads == lost sales' fallacy" [1] ) Now, I know they are speaking of a different article by the IPI, but the approaches used in the one cited in the Wikipedia article are the same.
However, at this point, I'm not necessarily recommending removing the text, as it is a criticism raised. Shrewmania ( talk) 10:33, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: External link in |title=
(
help)
Couldn't it be said that the right to create mashups is an extension or subset of the right to quote? 68.173.113.106 ( talk) 02:58, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
An IP editor has added the word "illegal" to the description of this image four times so far. Every time it has been removed, but we should resolve this before it turns into an edit war.
I (and apparently several other editors) prefer the version without "illegal". It doesn't really add any information; as far as I can tell, it's only there to take a stand against file sharing. The wording without "illegal" appears more neutral. Obviously, though, 74.108.115.191 ( talk) really feels that the word "illegal" belongs there.
Here's what other pages using this image have as I'm writing this:
All of these look better and more neutral to me than the version with "illegal", but apparently someone thinks otherwise. What's the consensus here - should the image say "file sharing" or "illegal file sharing", or something else completely? Sideways713 ( talk) 13:42, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
The protest was not in support of illegal file sharing in particular, and omitting "illegal" does not imply "legal". But since we apparently can't agree on what the neutral wording here is, a natural question to ask would be... is there any wording we can all agree meets WP:NPOV?
These, as noted, have been used elsewhere:
Would you have problems with using one of those as the image caption? Sideways713 ( talk) 18:53, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
I have now been threatened by Keri of banishment for reverting attempts to remove nine month old, accurate text. Although I have no question that this would not stand if pushed, and have never lost an escalation here despite over 1,000 edits, I am leaving this discussion as I simply have no time to deal with such nonsense. Such is why so many have left WP. I point you to the three month-old synthesis statement at the top of the article. This article is largely based on synthesis and is obviously slanted to anyone not wholly swallowing one side’s beliefs. Oddly, anyone that attempts to bring balance is accused of bias. I have been pro code sharing since before most of you have been alive and have shared massive amounts of my own code over decades. Of course, my own beliefs are not relevant. My reverts were based on a minor attempt to remove one obvious bias in the numerous, repetitive, one-sided, WP articles related to copyright. Article update at WP has been stagnating over the last couple of years. Some of these articles still point to a study on copyright long-since recalled by its own authors. Articles on the TPB founders are all wildly out of date and now sadly inaccurate. As someone above pointed out, many articles include the same image – an image of a protest in support of criminals convicted of “commercial” copyright violations (commercial under Swedish law meaning for-profit), without bothering to point out that their actions were illegal or for-profit. If you guys want to push such concepts; supporting criminals convicted of stashing millions in off-shore accounts (verified by court audits) by criminal violation of the rights of others, is not likely to be effective. It just makes WP look ridiculous. Do you really not believe that there is not a better way to present this argument, if that is your desire? Or to present a NPOV, if it is not? These articles should be combined and balanced and refs to criminals convicted of commercial rights violations should be removed. That’s my POV. 74.108.115.191 ( talk) 00:39, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
Use Demonstrators protesting The Pirate Bay raid, 2006.. The sources for that images is quiet clear. The demonstration was against three major topics: The claim of illegal influence on an police investigation by an other country, as reported by news papers at the time. The shutting down of physical close but unrelated servers including those used by news reporters. And thirdly, the abnormal larger use of police budget on minor crime, as cases like murder/mass-rape has a average of far less budget and police resources. Neither of those 3 has much to do with supporting illegal anything, and more to do with the political details of that case. Belorn ( talk) 12:04, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
The Forcehimes paper, written by a student, appears to be unknown and unread except for the person that added it to two at least Wikipedia articles. There is no discussion of it elsewhere. It has no weight. Wikipedia has more references to it than the entire rest of the World. You do not become notable because you are in encyclopedia. You get in an encyclopedia because you are notable. This is Wikipedia SPAM and an encyclopedia should not be used in this manner. The article was discussed at length at Talk:Digital rights management. ی پیرحیاتی suggests it be discussed at Talk:Think (journal). Why discuss an addition to this article on the empty talk page of a stub? The editor even removed a sentence at DRM saying that this article, suggesting that it is moral to break the laws of nearly every country, is controversial. Objective3000 ( talk) 15:54, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
I asked you to refer me to a Wikipedian law or policy that justifies your argument. As far as I know, notability deals with entries, not sources. The source must be reliable and published. Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources explicitly says: "When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources". By the way, the article does not say that "it is ethical to steal ebooks". You may want to check it again, although the content of a source doesn't have anything to do with its reliability. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 09:44, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for your language! Please answer this question: Is it against Wikipedia policies to use this source or not? -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 12:16, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
I changed my addition to a kind of non-interpretative report. So your second argument is dealt with. As far as the first argument is concerned, the work is a peer-reviewed article in a journal sponsored by the Royal Institute of Philosophy in London and published by Cambridge University Press. The author is formally and officially studying ethics at the Vanderbilt University, so he has some kind of authority and also this authority has been examined by the reviewing process of the aforementioned journal which authority is demonstrable (and in this case obvious) to other people. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 14:25, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
Why don't you answer my arguments? "Wikipedia should never be the first cite"!? Where does that come from? This is a journal on philosophy and ethics and my addition also deals with ethics of copyright. What is wrong with that? We do not measure academic journals. They are already measured. Think (journal) is so notable and reliable that it has an article in Wikipedia. If you think it's not notable, try to put it in the deletion process. This is the wrong place for this discussion. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 16:51, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
Think Journal is a journal of philosophy and ethics, designed to be readable by the general public, so it is exactly suitable for Wikipedia. As far as its notability is concerned, you can provide your arguments for its deletion in its talk page. As long as it has an entry on Wikipedia, we assume it has notability. Here you can refer to the laws and policies that prohibit the use of this source. For example, where is this written: "Wikipedia should never be the first cite"? -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 21:16, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
And I AGAIN ask you to show me the laws regarding your claims. Where is this written in the laws and policies: "You should cite sources that discuss the primary source."? According to WP:SCHOLARSHIP, extreme caution was advised, because I used almost exact sentences of the article. For your argument regarding WP:RS, I said that the work, the publisher and the author are reliable. What else? Also ethics is a branch of philosophy. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 03:08, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
I have answered all your arguments. You are making your own laws. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 13:11, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
I believe an academic peer-reviewed article, published by Royal Institute of Philosophy and Cambridge University Press which author is admitted to the Vanderbilt University is worthy of a section in WP, no matter what it says. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 14:54, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
Please consider Wikipedia:No personal attacks. First, thank you for refering to "Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible." I accept this. Assuming it's a primary source, here it was not possible for us to rely on secondary sources and we used a primary source. What is wrong with it? Second, I don't believe it's a primary source at all, because the article has been reviewed by a journal that has published articles by such notable authors as Antony Flew, Nigel Warburton, Simon Blackburn etc. Third, I'm not interested in the subject of the synopsis you mentioned, but I don't see a problem with using it in Wikipedia articles, simply because it does not violate Wikipedia's rules and policies. Fourth, thank you again for reading this article, but as you may know, your personal views do not matter here. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 17:07, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
1. Does Wikipedia say "Do not use primary sources" or "It's better not to use them"? 2. It's not a primary source because according to the policies, "academic and peer-reviewed publications ... are usually the most reliable sources". So the reference to them is recommended 3. I showed the reliability of the source and author several times. 4. The article is not the "view of a tiny minority". It's a kind of question about the ethical aspects of copyright. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 02:54, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
If you are interested in other views, note that VoluntarySlave and Belorn say it's a reliable source. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 04:13, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Maybe it would be helpful to shift the discussion from reliability to weight? It doesn't look like either of you are going to change the other's mind about reliability, but perhaps we could get somewhere by looking whether having a section on ethical arguments against copyright results in us giving undue weight to Forcehimes's paper. My initial thought is that ethical arguments about the validity of copyright would be a significant enough area of discussion to reflect in this article. However, if the only source on ethical arguments against copyright is this one short article by Forcehimes, maybe there isn't actually very much debate in this area, and so having a section on it would be to give it undue weight. But, on the other hand, there are other sections in this entry that also appear to only be based on one source, so having a section based only on this Forcehimes paper wouldn't be unfairly giving this source more weight than other sources in the article. Ali Pirhayati, could you say a bit about why you chose this source as the basis for the section in the article, and if you know whether or not there are other sources that discuss ethical arguments about copyright? I had a very brief look in the my university library's catalog, and I was surprised not to find any articles directly on the ethics of copyright, but as I say, it was a very brief look and I may easily have missed some. VoluntarySlave ( talk) 10:17, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
I also thank VoluntarySlave. I added some other sources that somehow argue against copyright ethically. I only added the views against copyright to justify the reference to Forcehimes and solve the problem of weight, but other users can add arguments against the aforementioned arguments (arguments for the copyright). Also we should note that the Forcehimes' paper (at least the part I quoted) is a kind of question about the consistency of moral views about copyright and it does not prove anything, hence I think it doesn't make a weight problem. And in response to Objective3000, I should say that a paper on ethics does NOT need to be peer-reviewed for legal content. The legal arguments must be ethical, not vice versa. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 16:25, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
First, we are not talking about a section; we are talking about one particular reference and the ethical section is not anymore limited to that one reference. Second, the Forcehimes' paper is about the morality of copyright, not its legality. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 17:48, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
1. No, we are not talking about the section of ethics according to the title of the last two sections of this talk page. 2. Forcehimes' main point is arguing that downloading books and using a library are alike and the ethical jundgements about the two must be alike, too. This main point does not have anything to do with the law. 3. I myself said that I added one-sided arguments (also this is "Anti-copyright" article). You may add opponent arguments. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 18:26, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
1. The titles of the two sections of this talk page show that we are talking only about Forcehimes' paper. 2. Even if you show that Forcehimes' paper has some legal problems, it won't implicate anything, because it's a reliable source and your point must be in some published source. 3. In the first reference, As you recommended, I used a secondary source (Alfino's paper) for refering to two papers against copyright (Bringsjord's and Hettinger's). These two papers are obviously against the copyright. In the second reference (Warwick's paper), I quoted exact sentences from the conclusion, so they're authentic. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 19:04, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
It is correct to categorize my paper as a moral argument. Let me start by making a distinction between (i) the law and (ii) the moral principles that undergird the law. The focus of my argument was (ii). On the one hand, if we think egalitarian considerations justify libraries, then we should think that these same egalitarian considerations justify stealing books online. If, on the other hand, we think that economic incentives justify a prohibition on stealing books online, then we should think those same economic considerations justify a prohibition on libraries. The arguments modesty comes from this parity thesis. I am assuming you (the reader) think libraries are justified and accordingly, if the parity holds, are committed to thinking that stealing books online is justified. Though the upshot concerns (i) legality, the argument, to repeat, all takes place a the level of (ii) the principles undergirding the law. So, even if an argument comes out showing that current legal practices are consistent, this fails to address the argument at the level it operates. -- Forcehimes ( talk) 21:22, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Clarification. I made my last post before having access to Karjiker’s (forthcoming) article. I’ve now read this article. Karjiker’s argument attacks the economic incentives parity. Though I disagree with this arguments conclusions, it attacks my argument at the correct level – (ii) from my previous post. -- Forcehimes ( talk) 21:44, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Then don't make this a forum by writing about your personal views. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 21:44, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
And I showed there is no violation of Wikipedia's laws and policies. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 22:02, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
This is about "anti-copyright". Like economic and cultural arguments against copyright, I added ethical arguments against it. Others can add ethical arguments for copyright to copyright or to the section "criticism of anti-copyright". -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 22:15, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Well, that is a suggestion for yourself. You are definitely supporting a POV by calling other views "absurd", "hilarious", "silly" and "Absolute Bull" and also by deleting opposite views. You oppose the main point of Forcehimes' paper and you're trying to shut it up. When you don't allow other reliable views to be expressed, you are obviously pushing your POV. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 05:51, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm glad that you have reached this conclusion! -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 12:54, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Apparently this a reciprocal feeling! I have replied to all these comments. -- Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 15:26, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Dana boomer ( talk) 11:27, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
This article has been renamed, without discussion, and is now seeing mass deletions of accepted text by someone with a clear POV who appears to have no interest in discussion. This would appear to be a problem. Objective3000 ( talk) 00:02, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Maybe the contents could be put in other sections of the article, or removed altogether? 81.233.196.43 ( talk) 10:19, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
User:90.203.193.86, You currently appear to be engaged in an
edit war according to the reverts you have made on
Opposition to copyright.
[11]
[12]
[13] Wikipedia users are expected to
collaborate with others, to avoid editing
disruptively, and to
try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.
Please be particularly aware that Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states:
If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing.
In addition, your other edits suggest a close association with the music industry. If this is the case, our policy on conflict of interest editing applies as well. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 19:15, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
Pirhayati is adding his own work to this article while refusing to discuss it. I have no idea what it says as it appears to be in Persian. Objective3000 ( talk) 12:36, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Let's go ahead one-by-one. Can we use non-English sources or not? Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 13:04, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
No. You are the suspect here. The Burden of proof is on you! Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 13:16, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
The burden is clearly on the person who is pushing his POV and offending others. Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 13:25, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Yes, three years ago. Please respect WP:AGF apologize for your behavior. Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 13:33, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
How can it be original research when it is published in several sources and I cited the reference? Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 13:57, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Conflict of interest does not say such a thing. It says: Do not add texts "about" yourself not "by" yourself. Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 14:09, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
I want to add the following text to the part "Ethical issues". It is published by the website "Network for Public Policy Studies" (it belongs to Center for Strategic Studies. Let's discuss it:
"Ali Pirhayati proposes a thought experiment for Forcehimes' argument: Imagine a very high-tech physical library in a (say) 10-million-people city. All these people are the members of the library. The library uses UAVs to send books to its members. Hence access to a physical book is possible in a few minutes after the user sends a request for it and after he/she finished reading, the book is immediately sent back to the library (by UAVs). Therefore, the library can provide services to all the population of the city with only 10 copies of a book, because the people who request a certain book at a certain time are not more than 10 people. Then, in this city, nobody needs to buy any books and a book which was to be published in (say) 10000 copies, is published only in 10 copies. Such a library is exactly parallel to downloading ebooks in all morally relevant respects. Whatever you think about stealing books online, you should also think about this high-tech physical library. And, since most people will think such a library is not ethically problematic, they should also think stealing books online is not problematic. [1]"
1. Because they are relevant. 2. Yes, NPPS is peer-reviewed. 3. no they are not discussed in independent sources (like other views in Ethical section) Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 18:11, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Calling what? Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 18:32, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
You're not right, but let's close this discussion. I think Forcehimes' paper is enough. :) Ali Pirhayati ( talk) 19:07, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
It's under no. 21: [ Höffner. "Copyright and structure of authors' earnings" (PDF). Retrieved February 11, 2012.]
The PDF cannot be found on the linked address and has been completely removed from that domain. I found the PDF on SlideShare, but that cannot be regarded as an official source. Furthermore, it is not a study as seems to be implied, although contains a useful comparison.
There is also an official article from Der Spiegel that mentions the same slide, available in English and German.
This is just a note. I have left the matter as it is for more experienced editors to handle.
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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@ Objective3000: If the lede was too long, we can discuss what to cut. However, as for the reversion in general, I'd like an explanation for exactly what you think was inappropriate about the content of this version of the lede. It was an explanation of the viewpoint, and briefly looked at one example. That is appropriate for an overview of an ideology with many conflicting ideas. lethargilistic ( talk) 11:44, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
making society ever more free, more equal, more sustainable, and with greater solidarity. It could easily be argued that the opposite is true. O3000 ( talk) 12:08, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
@ User:Lethargilistic Thing is, Kinsella's opinion doesn't make sense. Yes, some countries have in the last thirty years enacted criminal copyright legislation. But it remains the case that nearly all copyright actions worldwide are civil actions - not actions of the state.
In my view, gibberish that is cited is still gibberish. I think it is counterproductive to include material that doesn't make sense - it won't help WP users to understand anything.
Incidentally, there's a huge amount of uncited WP:OR here. My general attitude to articles that are blighted by OR is to delete uncited stuff. BRD, someone reverts, fair dos. That enables me to ask:
Do you think that opinions that don't make sense should be included, simply because the holder is notable and citable?
MrDemeanour ( talk) 17:40, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material. Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed.It does not say that things that are unsourced must be removed. It says they may be removed and that things which are challenged must be sourced. And, just to cover the base, simply saying "I challenge every unsourced statement in the article" would not be respectful of other Wikipedians' time. If you plan to work on this entire article's citation quality, it would be more productive to follow WP:V's suggestion of marking questionable statements with improvement tags like {{ citation needed}} or {{ better citation needed}}, or perhaps at least attempt in good faith to find a corroborating source yourself. My personal philosophy is generally that progress toward the content's eventual perfection should be prioritized over minor problems in the current version. Most of this content has a clear path to improvement, so I'm fairly hesitant to remove things just because someone should technically go through and find better references. It's not pretending to be a Featured Article or anything. lethargilistic ( talk) 18:21, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
The creator of the new article may be sincerely convinced that there is so much information about a certain aspect of a subject that it justifies a separate article.. It's appropriate. I also agree that the status quo should be represented in the article. However, although it is an imperfect example, consider Socialism vs. Capitalism. The socialism article is not half-capitalism and does not respond to every point with a capitalist view because the article is not about capitalism, and the capitalism article is also not about socialism. Part of why it's not perfect is that I can't think of an argument against copyright offhand that hasn't at least been answered by a pro-copyright viewpoint, so there's almost certainly something you could add to each section to represent that viewpoint. That does not mean each section should be half-pro-copyright, as that would be what I consider false balance in describing opposition. Also, remember that there are several branches of opposition to copyright that argue for returning to old versions of the law, some of which were in place much longer than current versions, so they could just as easily be called a return to a "status quo." lethargilistic ( talk) 19:30, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
Alright, if we're actually going to do this, it would be better for us to actually set out a plan rather than delete a bunch of stuff and communicate through edit summaries. I think we should settle on the highest level organization of the article first. What broad categories of objection are there? I'm sure there are papers and organizations out there that would supply content for this high level outline. My understanding of the subject is mostly American, so my topics list will certainly weigh toward sources examining economic forces. It goes without saying that counterarguments would appear throughout; just because I framed these as questions for expediency does not mean the article would be making arguments itself.
Certainly weighing in favor of economic arguments as I expected, but I think we could easily fill in something like this. lethargilistic ( talk) 04:57, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Andrewa ( talk) 03:06, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
Opposition to copyright →
Criticism of copyright – This article broadly covers criticism of copyright in general, not just opposition groups, and the current title sounds like POV to me, particularly with the use of opposition. There are more critics of copyright than are there actual opponents (I for one think copyright is too strict and should only focus on protecting the commercial interests of the copyright holders, but seeing that there are practical uses in protecting such interests, I do not oppose it).
Gamingforfun
365 00:48, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
Onlyforwikiapps ( talk) 22:22, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
In the first sentence, this article conflates criticism of copyright with anti copyright "sentiment". Sentiment implies emotional response and is often regarded pejoratively, whereas most of the the arguments for and against copyright are based on logical reasoning, not sentiment. As such this label is misleading and possibly pejorative, it should be removed form the article or preceded with "regarded by some as sentiment" or words to that effect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.93.146.3 ( talk) 14:34, 11 December 2022 (UTC)