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If we have two groups, each claiming to be "the good side" while utterly condemning the "other side" as "bad", what shall we do?
In US partisan politics, undecided voters often choose the candidate whose campaign seems "nicer" -- so that " negative campaigning" can backfire on mudslingers. It gets really tricky and confusing if one type of "mud" is the accusation that one's opponents are "attackers and mudslingers".
Since this article requires consensus (not a majority vote), I have up till now not commented on personalities or 'tactics' of article contributors. (Well, except maybe to point out a few especially calm and helpful folks -- sorry if that was a "personal remark" ;-)
So I would really prefer to see this talk page focus on specific and concrete suggestions on improving the Prem Rawat series of articles. And let's try to avoid criticizing individual contributors: I don't care WHO says WHAT. I just want to know what we're going to put into the article. -- Uncle Ed 17:40, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Jim, several points of reply:
Hi Ed,
Here is the particular part of the particular FAQ that concerns me (I've deleted references to others):
Are the people in this hate group credible?
Of the 15-20 people posting as various anonymous personae on the hate site, it has been documented that:
One, a lawyer, acknowledged in writing having embezzled $18,000 from an organisation supporting Maharaji's work.
This is not exactly a cross-section of normal, ordinary, functional, law-abiding citizens. '
As I said, EV knows this is a lie. This is not arguable. First, my entire post was jokey such that it should have been obvious to anyone that I was kidding. Second, and far more importantly, I explained that I was, in fact, just joking immediately afterwards in that very forum thread. Third, when foolish premies siezed on my joke and tried to mischaracterize it as a real admission of a serious felony, the former coordinator of the community I lived in, Jack Tuff, still an active and very dedicated premie, publically reported that there never was any such loss or anything like it. This is proof beyond all question that EV is willing to lie in order to protect Rawat. By the way, one-reality.net still tries to defame me with this too, pretending that there's some sort of open question as to what the truth was.
Now you tell me, please, how one could write a comment on this that was NPOV? Is it enough, in your view, to simply state that EV says that one critic admitted stealing this money but he says that he was just joking and points out several reasons that he should be believed? Would that go far enough for you, Ed? The problem is that this issue should be closed. It's a simple fact that they're lying and the more interesting issue is what arises from that: why?
How would you report this fairly according to your NPOV guidelines? Really, I'm curious.
-- Jim
What I'm going to do is encourage the Prem Rawat series of articles to address the topic of relations between the organization and its ex-members. What I'm not going to do, as you probably realize already, is try to "get to the bottom of the controversy" and endorse the POV that they're just harassing you (or, contrariwise, that you're just harrassing them). -- Uncle Ed 22:14, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Yes, you're right. You can indeed say that Elan Vital is making false accusations but you don't have to name me. That doesn't follow. Just like they didn't specifically name me in their FAQ. All you need say is that Elan Vital has resorted to blatant lies in order to discredit their critics. Yeah, I know ... I'm really holding my breath .... -- Jim
How about:
"critics complain that Elan Vital is making false allegations against them in order to harass, intimidate and discredit them. They give the example of Elan Vital claiming on its website that one of them admitted embezzling $18,000 from a Rawat-related organization although, in truth, the critic merely joked about doing so one day, immediately explained he was joking and no money was ever reported missing"?
-- Jim
Zappaz, have you read the site? You wrote "wide array of academic articles about cults" Geee, if you call that academic. I could write better articles than those, I mean it. Andries 04:48, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I just removed the CAN link. It's an inappropriate website to place within this article, even though you "wikified" it. It's purpose is to deceive unknowledgeable people (note it's name and then its content about cults and so-called anti-cultists) and there is no reason for it to be placed in this article. All of the CAN references to Singer are strongly biased against her work/studies. IMO, no more anti-Singer (and other cult expert) references are needed within this article. With all the sources from Melton, Introvigne, Barker, CESNUR, and Geaves, (all considered cult apologists by other known scholars) there is more than enough bias against former followers of any personality cult leaders, especially ex-premies.
IMO, I would say this is nothing more than Rawat students piling on the rhetoric of the NRM movement. I'll keep deleting the CAN link if it's put back into the article. Once again, it's purposely deceptive based upon its name and how it was obtained by the Scientologists, therefore not credible.
CynthiaG 15:56, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I know a lot more about the " Cult Awareness Network" than about "Maharaji". They spread disparaging information about new religious movements, especially the Unification Church, and they put inquirers in touch with deprogrammers -- possibly collecting a fee for this. When they finally went too far, they lost a lawsuit and got taken over by the Scientologists. Singer got discredited, when her psychologicial theory of 'mind control' was declared "not scientific" by the American Psychological Association, and could no longer pick up huge fees for providing 'expert testimony' in court. I've heard the "line" spouted by Cynthia, but the considered cult apologists by other known scholars claim is horsefeathers. Actually, there's quite a bit of calm, reputable sociological work done by well-regarded academics on the NRMs. And they just don't agree with the anti-cult & counter-cult movements. There's just no such thing as brainwashing: people believe what they choose to, and people join or leave wacky religious (or political) groups whenever they want to. -- Uncle Ed 16:59, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Cynthia, the second link (re: 'task force') you supplied led me to the following:
To me (and to courts), this means that the DIMPAC/Singer concept of " mind control" is not scientific. You, on the other hand, are welcome to intrepret APA's findings any way you wish. Wikipedia, of course, takes no side on controversial issues but merely reports what the various sources say.
And if a " cult" is a "religion regarded as spurious" and you regard my religion as spurious, than obviously I'm "in a cult". In other words, you sharply disagree with my religious beliefs (and that's okay with me :-) and think my church therefore has a fraudulent basis. But I'm not an idiot or even an imbecile, because I can recognize idtiots as a misspelling even without a spell-checker; I'm at least a moron. ;) -- Uncle Ed 15:36, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
As promised, I have started to edit the article. So far I have only done the first section, 'Sources of Criticism'. While keeping changes to a minimum, I have tried to let it flow better, giving a better historical context to the criticisms. I have included two links to in-depth articles from 1974, which are critical in the true sense of the word, and are a fair reflection of how outsiders viewed Prem Rawat at the time.
I changed the phrase 'the media subjected him...' as this made Rawat look like a victim of the media.
I added a reference to Bob Mishler as he could be regarded as the first active ex-premie.
I reworded the description of ex-premies correcting the incorrect statement that the majority left over 20 years ago. The fact is that most current active ex-premies left since 1999. I removed the part about ex-premies feeling 'betrayed, angry and disillusioned' as although this may be true for some, it does not accurately reflect the feelings of ex-premies, and is too complex a subject for this article. I also reworded the part about the size of the group, and representation of the 'silent majority'.
Given that prominence is given to the views about ex-premies of 'supporters', I have added that ex-premies believe these are a minority of current followers that do not represent the majority. (BTW, neither I nor any previous EPO webmasters has ever spammed search engines - whatever that means - EPO has a high ranking because of its relevance, but more importantly to search engines, its traffic.)
I hope that any further changes to this section will be supported by reasoned discussion here, and not anonymous edits. --
John Brauns 00:51, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
John: Let me explain something to you. What was requested and expected is that you would either augment the article with new information or provide new information that could be added to the article by other editors. What you have done is to re-write a complete section. This amounts to a revert of a lot of work from me and other editors that was tacitly approved and commended by several active editors. That is unacceptable. The points you made above could have been added, and the incorrect dates, corrected. Re-writing the article is not what is required, nor what was expected. Before I revert your edits and incorporate the substance of your corrections to the previous version, I will leave some time and space for other editors to comment as well.-- Zappaz 03:15, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Speaking as a contributor of mellifluous prose that has now been munched on by just about everybody, LOL & ;-) , I urge patience and restraint in responding to John, Cynthia, and any other ex-premie editors coming on the scene. Heck, I'm just thrilled to see them participating. John in today's edit has among other things contributed some additional 1970s material, given us an update to the timeline in the 1980s, talked on the talk page about what he was doing, and I believe at least attempted to throw the other side some concessions, which is both commendable and rare. Has he also added an "anti" spin? Well, maybe so. But I've got news for yas: to my eyes, almost every ex-premie edit has come with "anti" spin, and almost every supporter edit has come with "pro" spin. But spin can always be killed later on, while additional substantive information is precious. I would suggest each side let their opponents "get it all out" as much as possible, hell, downright fill the article with stuff, and then the knife can fall in consensus at the end. That way, no one can come back and say (regardless of whether or not it is so) that they were never allowed to tell their full story, or were intimidated away from editing in mid-stream. Giving full and free reign to the other side is a path to everyone forever holding their peace at the end of the process. -- Gary D 06:26, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
Okay, so we're all agreed that we're furious but we're going to give those bastards from the other side a chance to pack all their lies, calumny, spin and deception into the article before we all go back in together to do final edits and deletes. I submit this is a workable plan. Alright everyone, back to adding in more information, detail, and text. -- Gary D 23:25, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
Are we having a little trouble with my dry, acerbic wit? Let me clarify: My remarks above were directed at everyone, on both sides. -- Gary D 07:01, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
If we have two groups, each claiming to be "the good side" while utterly condemning the "other side" as "bad", what shall we do?
In US partisan politics, undecided voters often choose the candidate whose campaign seems "nicer" -- so that " negative campaigning" can backfire on mudslingers. It gets really tricky and confusing if one type of "mud" is the accusation that one's opponents are "attackers and mudslingers".
Since this article requires consensus (not a majority vote), I have up till now not commented on personalities or 'tactics' of article contributors. (Well, except maybe to point out a few especially calm and helpful folks -- sorry if that was a "personal remark" ;-)
So I would really prefer to see this talk page focus on specific and concrete suggestions on improving the Prem Rawat series of articles. And let's try to avoid criticizing individual contributors: I don't care WHO says WHAT. I just want to know what we're going to put into the article. -- Uncle Ed 17:40, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Jim, several points of reply:
Hi Ed,
Here is the particular part of the particular FAQ that concerns me (I've deleted references to others):
Are the people in this hate group credible?
Of the 15-20 people posting as various anonymous personae on the hate site, it has been documented that:
One, a lawyer, acknowledged in writing having embezzled $18,000 from an organisation supporting Maharaji's work.
This is not exactly a cross-section of normal, ordinary, functional, law-abiding citizens. '
As I said, EV knows this is a lie. This is not arguable. First, my entire post was jokey such that it should have been obvious to anyone that I was kidding. Second, and far more importantly, I explained that I was, in fact, just joking immediately afterwards in that very forum thread. Third, when foolish premies siezed on my joke and tried to mischaracterize it as a real admission of a serious felony, the former coordinator of the community I lived in, Jack Tuff, still an active and very dedicated premie, publically reported that there never was any such loss or anything like it. This is proof beyond all question that EV is willing to lie in order to protect Rawat. By the way, one-reality.net still tries to defame me with this too, pretending that there's some sort of open question as to what the truth was.
Now you tell me, please, how one could write a comment on this that was NPOV? Is it enough, in your view, to simply state that EV says that one critic admitted stealing this money but he says that he was just joking and points out several reasons that he should be believed? Would that go far enough for you, Ed? The problem is that this issue should be closed. It's a simple fact that they're lying and the more interesting issue is what arises from that: why?
How would you report this fairly according to your NPOV guidelines? Really, I'm curious.
-- Jim
What I'm going to do is encourage the Prem Rawat series of articles to address the topic of relations between the organization and its ex-members. What I'm not going to do, as you probably realize already, is try to "get to the bottom of the controversy" and endorse the POV that they're just harassing you (or, contrariwise, that you're just harrassing them). -- Uncle Ed 22:14, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Yes, you're right. You can indeed say that Elan Vital is making false accusations but you don't have to name me. That doesn't follow. Just like they didn't specifically name me in their FAQ. All you need say is that Elan Vital has resorted to blatant lies in order to discredit their critics. Yeah, I know ... I'm really holding my breath .... -- Jim
How about:
"critics complain that Elan Vital is making false allegations against them in order to harass, intimidate and discredit them. They give the example of Elan Vital claiming on its website that one of them admitted embezzling $18,000 from a Rawat-related organization although, in truth, the critic merely joked about doing so one day, immediately explained he was joking and no money was ever reported missing"?
-- Jim
Zappaz, have you read the site? You wrote "wide array of academic articles about cults" Geee, if you call that academic. I could write better articles than those, I mean it. Andries 04:48, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I just removed the CAN link. It's an inappropriate website to place within this article, even though you "wikified" it. It's purpose is to deceive unknowledgeable people (note it's name and then its content about cults and so-called anti-cultists) and there is no reason for it to be placed in this article. All of the CAN references to Singer are strongly biased against her work/studies. IMO, no more anti-Singer (and other cult expert) references are needed within this article. With all the sources from Melton, Introvigne, Barker, CESNUR, and Geaves, (all considered cult apologists by other known scholars) there is more than enough bias against former followers of any personality cult leaders, especially ex-premies.
IMO, I would say this is nothing more than Rawat students piling on the rhetoric of the NRM movement. I'll keep deleting the CAN link if it's put back into the article. Once again, it's purposely deceptive based upon its name and how it was obtained by the Scientologists, therefore not credible.
CynthiaG 15:56, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I know a lot more about the " Cult Awareness Network" than about "Maharaji". They spread disparaging information about new religious movements, especially the Unification Church, and they put inquirers in touch with deprogrammers -- possibly collecting a fee for this. When they finally went too far, they lost a lawsuit and got taken over by the Scientologists. Singer got discredited, when her psychologicial theory of 'mind control' was declared "not scientific" by the American Psychological Association, and could no longer pick up huge fees for providing 'expert testimony' in court. I've heard the "line" spouted by Cynthia, but the considered cult apologists by other known scholars claim is horsefeathers. Actually, there's quite a bit of calm, reputable sociological work done by well-regarded academics on the NRMs. And they just don't agree with the anti-cult & counter-cult movements. There's just no such thing as brainwashing: people believe what they choose to, and people join or leave wacky religious (or political) groups whenever they want to. -- Uncle Ed 16:59, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Cynthia, the second link (re: 'task force') you supplied led me to the following:
To me (and to courts), this means that the DIMPAC/Singer concept of " mind control" is not scientific. You, on the other hand, are welcome to intrepret APA's findings any way you wish. Wikipedia, of course, takes no side on controversial issues but merely reports what the various sources say.
And if a " cult" is a "religion regarded as spurious" and you regard my religion as spurious, than obviously I'm "in a cult". In other words, you sharply disagree with my religious beliefs (and that's okay with me :-) and think my church therefore has a fraudulent basis. But I'm not an idiot or even an imbecile, because I can recognize idtiots as a misspelling even without a spell-checker; I'm at least a moron. ;) -- Uncle Ed 15:36, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
As promised, I have started to edit the article. So far I have only done the first section, 'Sources of Criticism'. While keeping changes to a minimum, I have tried to let it flow better, giving a better historical context to the criticisms. I have included two links to in-depth articles from 1974, which are critical in the true sense of the word, and are a fair reflection of how outsiders viewed Prem Rawat at the time.
I changed the phrase 'the media subjected him...' as this made Rawat look like a victim of the media.
I added a reference to Bob Mishler as he could be regarded as the first active ex-premie.
I reworded the description of ex-premies correcting the incorrect statement that the majority left over 20 years ago. The fact is that most current active ex-premies left since 1999. I removed the part about ex-premies feeling 'betrayed, angry and disillusioned' as although this may be true for some, it does not accurately reflect the feelings of ex-premies, and is too complex a subject for this article. I also reworded the part about the size of the group, and representation of the 'silent majority'.
Given that prominence is given to the views about ex-premies of 'supporters', I have added that ex-premies believe these are a minority of current followers that do not represent the majority. (BTW, neither I nor any previous EPO webmasters has ever spammed search engines - whatever that means - EPO has a high ranking because of its relevance, but more importantly to search engines, its traffic.)
I hope that any further changes to this section will be supported by reasoned discussion here, and not anonymous edits. --
John Brauns 00:51, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
John: Let me explain something to you. What was requested and expected is that you would either augment the article with new information or provide new information that could be added to the article by other editors. What you have done is to re-write a complete section. This amounts to a revert of a lot of work from me and other editors that was tacitly approved and commended by several active editors. That is unacceptable. The points you made above could have been added, and the incorrect dates, corrected. Re-writing the article is not what is required, nor what was expected. Before I revert your edits and incorporate the substance of your corrections to the previous version, I will leave some time and space for other editors to comment as well.-- Zappaz 03:15, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Speaking as a contributor of mellifluous prose that has now been munched on by just about everybody, LOL & ;-) , I urge patience and restraint in responding to John, Cynthia, and any other ex-premie editors coming on the scene. Heck, I'm just thrilled to see them participating. John in today's edit has among other things contributed some additional 1970s material, given us an update to the timeline in the 1980s, talked on the talk page about what he was doing, and I believe at least attempted to throw the other side some concessions, which is both commendable and rare. Has he also added an "anti" spin? Well, maybe so. But I've got news for yas: to my eyes, almost every ex-premie edit has come with "anti" spin, and almost every supporter edit has come with "pro" spin. But spin can always be killed later on, while additional substantive information is precious. I would suggest each side let their opponents "get it all out" as much as possible, hell, downright fill the article with stuff, and then the knife can fall in consensus at the end. That way, no one can come back and say (regardless of whether or not it is so) that they were never allowed to tell their full story, or were intimidated away from editing in mid-stream. Giving full and free reign to the other side is a path to everyone forever holding their peace at the end of the process. -- Gary D 06:26, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
Okay, so we're all agreed that we're furious but we're going to give those bastards from the other side a chance to pack all their lies, calumny, spin and deception into the article before we all go back in together to do final edits and deletes. I submit this is a workable plan. Alright everyone, back to adding in more information, detail, and text. -- Gary D 23:25, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
Are we having a little trouble with my dry, acerbic wit? Let me clarify: My remarks above were directed at everyone, on both sides. -- Gary D 07:01, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)