This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Criticism of Pope John Paul II article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
I'm a little concerned that an article of this nature has no references. — Trilobite ( Talk) 22:21, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
This section first mentions the criticism about PJPII, but then goes off on some tangents about (1) what was done in response (reforms), and (2) a mention of a church statement from 2008 on this topic. The man died in 2005, so how, in a section that is supposed to discuss the criticism of his activities are either of these items relevant? Since there is a cited article dedicated to the topic "Catholic sex abuse cases" I would suggest that the current section have all sentences following the first one removed since they aren't to the point. If additional information could be added to expand it that is on-topic (ie, criticism about his handling of catholic sex abuse, NOT his reactions, or church reforms, etc) that would result in a better article also.
Oh, and some cites would be nice! I'm not sure what counts as valid sources, but here is an article I found that might be relevant
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7086738.ece
70.179.23.9 ( talk) 19:40, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
I expanded on the criticism John Paul faced from traditional Catholics to try to make the article a bit more rounded, to show that John Paul faced criticism not just from the left, but from some conservatives as well. I wanted to show to what lengths people went who felt John Paul wasn't conservative enough for their tastes.
JesseG
23:24, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
While for the most part, the material here seems POV balanced (at least in tone), and it jives with what my recollections of anecdotes in several biographies of JP2 which I have read, the material does smack of being cut and pasted by several editors independently. I would like to rewrite each section as if it was written by one author. I do not want to remove any content (but see below), but organize it as if it were not simply one contributer adding to the previous to "balance" the first's POV. (Not at all an insult to your good contributions JesseG, but rather an acknowledgement that it should not read as such).
Furthermore, I would like to remove unnecessary descriptions of the Church's positions (of course the Pope will stick to them; that should be assumed). I prefer the words "critics" and "detractors" to "opponents" and "enemies", on POV grounds. And while I do not know whether I will remove them yet, I do not think the actions of the various "Traditional Catholics" described herein in response to the criticisms of JP2 are necessary.
Baccyak4H 04:05, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
This passage
has been removed by Pianoman123 with the note "NPOV". I acknowledge that the passage, and indeed nearly every passage in this article, are critical (to the subject, Pope John Paul II) and not balanced for POV with respect to him. However, this article purports to be just that - criticism - and so long as the content is clearly worded as being from critical POVs, and not presented as fact, I believe everything is acceptable. By the standards Pianoman123 appears to be using, this article could not even exist in WP. So the first question is, indeed could it??
I recently went through this article to remove what I saw as "rebuttals" to many points of criticism as I felt that was not the purpose. Perhaps there should be rebuttals, but I worry about the content sounding too pedantic. I invite discussion on this matter.
Baccyak4H 03:29, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I can understand the objections to the removal, but here are my contentions: I don't find it problematic that all the sections of this article are critical, in keeping with the title, but there need to be sources cited for the claims made, as some of them are quite weighty. Right now, they appear to be either original research or simply "common knowledge." Additionally, one way to balance things would be to find a source which offers an alternative point of view, for instance, on Pope John Paul II's support for Opus Dei.
The above comment pertaining to this is questionable:
"...However, this article purports to be just that - criticism - and so long as the content is clearly worded as being from critical POVs, and not presented as fact, I believe everything is acceptable." What's disputable here is that POVs are claimed to be acceptable, when in fact, they are not allowed in any uncited context. Additionally, the comment purports that it is adequate for something to be deliberately presented as fiction ("not presented as fact") so long as it is clear to the reader that it is fiction; however, this would constitute an injection of a non-neutral point of view.
You may be right, though, about the licitness of the article's presence in WP. Much of the content here is repeated elsewhere, in more substantial articles, and is better and more fairly represented there.
Pianoman123 07:28, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with the contention that an article can exist under the disclaimer of it's being a repository for non-neutral points of view: "the material itself is intended to be a non-neutral ("criticism of JP2") summary." Is someone actually willing to write at the top: "hearsay about John Paul II?" If not, then we should only include information which can be verified. Otherwise, the quality of the article will suffer, and it will violate Wikipedia standards by purposefully promoting non-neutrality on two levels. This is also against Wikipedia rules: "It's OK to report others' POV in (part of) an article designed to do just that." While it is okay to include multiple points of view in a comprehensive article, it is not okay to have an article in Wikipedia whose only purpose is to report POVs unless they're cited; it's simply a breach of the rules.
The chief danger is that most people, when they read an article, presume its content to be verified if its accuracy is not already disputed. You can see where this leads--false conclusions about Pope John Paul II and the Church.
Pianoman123 01:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Alas, I don't think this is worth pursuing much further. I think my assertions have been slightly oversimplified above, but I probably could have presented them better the first time. Here are some last thoughts from the WP page on neutrality:
A simple formulation
We sometimes give an alternative formulation of the non-bias policy: assert facts, including facts about opinions — but don't assert opinions themselves. There is a difference between facts and opinions. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can.
The most important step now is to work on this article's potential merger with the main JP II article.
Pianoman123 22:39, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Then transubstantiation must be removed from the sacraments article, unless you have a chemical test for the presence of divinity. The existence of an opinion is a fact, my friend. Thus, it is as perfectly acceptable to say, "Pope John Paul II was criticised for re-asserting the Church's commitment to priestly celibacy in the Latin Rite," as it is to say, "Many scholars in the West are of the opinion that JP II's support for the Solidarity movement in Poland, and its cognates in other countries, was a leading cause of the fall of the Soviety Union." hat would be unacceptable opnion is to say, "JP II was wrong to enfoce celibacy," or "JP II is a great guy for defeating Communism." HarvardOxon 22:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
This is getting silly. I obviously agree that the existence of an opinion is a fact, and that it is acceptable to post opinions that have been stated by various people (how could I not?). What I'm contesting here is the spirit of the article: even if it's purpose is to criticize JP II, there should still be a logical structure to the article (statements, citations, conclusions, etc.). My other issue is that very litte in this article is cited. It's just plain bothersome, since some very serious claims are made. Wikipedia rules define a fact as "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." There are serious disputes about the topics in question here, so we should find some sources. Thanks for your consideration, Pianoman123 02:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
OK OK. I am sensing a consensus building that this "criticism" material should be returned to the main JP2 article and definitely cited better. While I am not saying that is the best solution (albeit I have no idea what best would be here), this sounds to me to be a very good solution. Note (as below) that I have made (for better or worse) similar edits in both the "fork" article and the main JP2 article, so they will read similarly in many places. This may make consolidation easier - I hope it does.
No hard feelings Pianoman. When I'm perfect, I'll hold you to that standard too ;). But I still really, really want you to share what you feel is (1) original research; (2) opinions for which there is serious dispute about the fact that they are held (regardless whether the opinions are right, or wrong, or untestable, or...). While I mentioned that there is little material here I am not aware of, there still is some. But, of note, not opposition to JP2's support of Opus Dei, or to the Escrivá canonization, which you object to.
Anyway, I like this plan. Baccyak4H 04:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I think I can guess why you're pursuing this. You're probably wondering why I took issue with the Opus Dei section and not the others, since they're similar; I'll bet you're trying to discern a bias on my part in favor of Opus Dei or JP II. To be completely honest, my reaction to that section was a visceral one, mostly on account of the verbiage. What has bothered me all along is the word choice and phrasing:
"John Paul was criticised for his support for the Opus Dei prelature, which some argue is essentially a cult operating within the Church. Others criticised the canonization of its founder, Josemaría Escrivá."
This would be better:
"John Paul II was criticised for his approval of Opus Dei, a controversial personal prelature of the Catholic Church. Others criticised the canonization of its founder, Josemaría Escrivá."
This article is not about Opus Dei; it's about JP II. If someone wants a balanced description of what Opus Dei is, they can go to the Opus Dei WP page. But a one-phrase characterization simply doesn't do the issue justice, and seems to make a furtive argument against OD within the context of criticism of JP II. You've convinced me that we only need to mention one-sided criticism of JP II in this article (since that's the article's purpose), but I think that if another topic (Opus Dei) is described as part of the criticism, it should be presented objectively.
Pianoman123 21:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Great-- this sounds good to me. On the point about the support for OD and Escriva's canonization, I'm undecided. On the one hand, his connection with OD is obviously paramount. At the same time, one of the reasons some people criticized JP2 during the canonization was that it was expedited in a way to which they were not accustomed (this can be explained by a slight change in the Vatican policy on canonization, which caused some to see a connection between the policy tweak and Escriva). At the same time though, Escriva's process of canonization may have never received so much scrutiny were he not the founder of OD. So I'd say it's fair to make the edit you suggest above. Feel free to do so, of course. Best, Pianoman123 04:27, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Another note-- since the article appears to be growing, I was just noticing that about 95% of the material in this article is uncited. Some of it is undisputed, so it's fine. But it would help with the credibility if those who recently added material would find a few sources. Thanks Pianoman123 08:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Can someone explain to me why this is not a POV fork? -- Richard 03:57, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
This, and the other articles on John Paul II were created because of space. Before the article was broken up like this, it ran at one stage to over 100K. That is more than 3 times the maximum recommended article size. It is nothing to do with forking. It is to do with bringing the main article to a satisfactory length. This is done in all big articles. It is standard. Your forking theory is irrelevant. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 04:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree. I think we should merge this article with the
Pope John Paul II article. Besides, if we were to expand this article, it would undoubtedly overlap with much of what's already in the
Pope John Paul II article.
Pianoman123 16:43, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
You all raise some good points. I have been cleaning up both now for a few days because they both read (past tense) like a cut/paste/append hangover. That may be why they lately have read somewhat similarly (as Pianoman123 points out). There was a link from the relevant section of the main JP2 page here, but then it was gone, and then it was back... I have no objection to where the material is, I'll go with everyone else's consensus as to where it should be. Baccyak4H 03:08, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Update. I am leaning towards returning the criticism to the main article as (1) it does not add relatively much length to the article; (2) it avoids the ambiguity of whether an article of "criticism" is by definition not NPOV (while I disagree that it is by definition not NPOV, I admit to the ambiguity). In the above section, there was more apparent support for rejoining, but I defer to those contributors to (further) speak their respective cases. Baccyak4H 04:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
People need to keep those two terms apart. "Traditional teachings" are the actual historical teachings of the church. For many of the teachings listed, it is questionable whether they actually are traditional and citations would be needed to establish that. "Traditionalists teachings" are merely the teachings of a particular ideological branch of the church; despite the name, they do not necessarily actually stand for tradition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcarnelian ( talk • contribs) 18:10, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
Hey there folks!
So what's up with the relationship between the Pope and Latin American dictators like Pinochet? There's plenty of articles about it on the net, and pictures. I'm not a regular editor of Wikipedia but it'd be good if somebody who spent time in this article wrote something about it.
Cheers! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.20.44.191 ( talk) 12:27, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi! I removed the section, and it was put back, so I thought I'd bring it here to explain why I'm concerned that it doesn't fit into the article. :) Currently it is relying on a single source, the Time magazine article. In effect, the article says that Dr. Lina Pavanelli had surmised that the Pope was euthanised based on her observations on TV, coverage in the press and a book. That makes me a tad nervous, as it feels like weak evidence to draw such a conclusion from. However, she then surmises that Pope John Paul II must have been complicit in this. So we have her guessing that passive euthanasia was employed, and then guessing that he would have known - the result is a really poor argument on which to draw anything. When you then note that the Vatican specifically denied the claims, stating that he was given a feeding tube, then we're giving a dedicated section to a guess on a guess that is denied by those actually involved. Going beyond that, there is the question of whether or not a delay in providing a feeding tube was euthanasia - which is highly doubtful. Overall, it isn't even clear if it is criticism of Pope John Paul II, even assuming that it did occur. It feels out of place with the other criticisms, which relate more directly to things he did (or did not) do. - Bilby ( talk) 11:43, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
The opening line of the article reads: "Pope John Paul II was criticized, amongst other things,[1] for lack of any response ..."
The placement of the 'for' changes the meaning here between 'criticizing and things FOR lack of response' vs 'criticizing FOR lack of response and things'
So I propose the following change: "Pope John Paul II was criticized for, amongst other things,[1] lack of any response ..."
-- 72.214.182.27 ( talk) 20:04, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Criticism of Pope John Paul II. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 13:00, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Criticism of Pope John Paul II. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/abuse/abuse08.htmWhen you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:57, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Criticism of Pope John Paul II. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 14:53, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.193.228.106 ( talk) 22:24, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Criticism of Pope John Paul II article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||
|
I'm a little concerned that an article of this nature has no references. — Trilobite ( Talk) 22:21, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
This section first mentions the criticism about PJPII, but then goes off on some tangents about (1) what was done in response (reforms), and (2) a mention of a church statement from 2008 on this topic. The man died in 2005, so how, in a section that is supposed to discuss the criticism of his activities are either of these items relevant? Since there is a cited article dedicated to the topic "Catholic sex abuse cases" I would suggest that the current section have all sentences following the first one removed since they aren't to the point. If additional information could be added to expand it that is on-topic (ie, criticism about his handling of catholic sex abuse, NOT his reactions, or church reforms, etc) that would result in a better article also.
Oh, and some cites would be nice! I'm not sure what counts as valid sources, but here is an article I found that might be relevant
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7086738.ece
70.179.23.9 ( talk) 19:40, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
I expanded on the criticism John Paul faced from traditional Catholics to try to make the article a bit more rounded, to show that John Paul faced criticism not just from the left, but from some conservatives as well. I wanted to show to what lengths people went who felt John Paul wasn't conservative enough for their tastes.
JesseG
23:24, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
While for the most part, the material here seems POV balanced (at least in tone), and it jives with what my recollections of anecdotes in several biographies of JP2 which I have read, the material does smack of being cut and pasted by several editors independently. I would like to rewrite each section as if it was written by one author. I do not want to remove any content (but see below), but organize it as if it were not simply one contributer adding to the previous to "balance" the first's POV. (Not at all an insult to your good contributions JesseG, but rather an acknowledgement that it should not read as such).
Furthermore, I would like to remove unnecessary descriptions of the Church's positions (of course the Pope will stick to them; that should be assumed). I prefer the words "critics" and "detractors" to "opponents" and "enemies", on POV grounds. And while I do not know whether I will remove them yet, I do not think the actions of the various "Traditional Catholics" described herein in response to the criticisms of JP2 are necessary.
Baccyak4H 04:05, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
This passage
has been removed by Pianoman123 with the note "NPOV". I acknowledge that the passage, and indeed nearly every passage in this article, are critical (to the subject, Pope John Paul II) and not balanced for POV with respect to him. However, this article purports to be just that - criticism - and so long as the content is clearly worded as being from critical POVs, and not presented as fact, I believe everything is acceptable. By the standards Pianoman123 appears to be using, this article could not even exist in WP. So the first question is, indeed could it??
I recently went through this article to remove what I saw as "rebuttals" to many points of criticism as I felt that was not the purpose. Perhaps there should be rebuttals, but I worry about the content sounding too pedantic. I invite discussion on this matter.
Baccyak4H 03:29, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I can understand the objections to the removal, but here are my contentions: I don't find it problematic that all the sections of this article are critical, in keeping with the title, but there need to be sources cited for the claims made, as some of them are quite weighty. Right now, they appear to be either original research or simply "common knowledge." Additionally, one way to balance things would be to find a source which offers an alternative point of view, for instance, on Pope John Paul II's support for Opus Dei.
The above comment pertaining to this is questionable:
"...However, this article purports to be just that - criticism - and so long as the content is clearly worded as being from critical POVs, and not presented as fact, I believe everything is acceptable." What's disputable here is that POVs are claimed to be acceptable, when in fact, they are not allowed in any uncited context. Additionally, the comment purports that it is adequate for something to be deliberately presented as fiction ("not presented as fact") so long as it is clear to the reader that it is fiction; however, this would constitute an injection of a non-neutral point of view.
You may be right, though, about the licitness of the article's presence in WP. Much of the content here is repeated elsewhere, in more substantial articles, and is better and more fairly represented there.
Pianoman123 07:28, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with the contention that an article can exist under the disclaimer of it's being a repository for non-neutral points of view: "the material itself is intended to be a non-neutral ("criticism of JP2") summary." Is someone actually willing to write at the top: "hearsay about John Paul II?" If not, then we should only include information which can be verified. Otherwise, the quality of the article will suffer, and it will violate Wikipedia standards by purposefully promoting non-neutrality on two levels. This is also against Wikipedia rules: "It's OK to report others' POV in (part of) an article designed to do just that." While it is okay to include multiple points of view in a comprehensive article, it is not okay to have an article in Wikipedia whose only purpose is to report POVs unless they're cited; it's simply a breach of the rules.
The chief danger is that most people, when they read an article, presume its content to be verified if its accuracy is not already disputed. You can see where this leads--false conclusions about Pope John Paul II and the Church.
Pianoman123 01:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Alas, I don't think this is worth pursuing much further. I think my assertions have been slightly oversimplified above, but I probably could have presented them better the first time. Here are some last thoughts from the WP page on neutrality:
A simple formulation
We sometimes give an alternative formulation of the non-bias policy: assert facts, including facts about opinions — but don't assert opinions themselves. There is a difference between facts and opinions. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can.
The most important step now is to work on this article's potential merger with the main JP II article.
Pianoman123 22:39, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Then transubstantiation must be removed from the sacraments article, unless you have a chemical test for the presence of divinity. The existence of an opinion is a fact, my friend. Thus, it is as perfectly acceptable to say, "Pope John Paul II was criticised for re-asserting the Church's commitment to priestly celibacy in the Latin Rite," as it is to say, "Many scholars in the West are of the opinion that JP II's support for the Solidarity movement in Poland, and its cognates in other countries, was a leading cause of the fall of the Soviety Union." hat would be unacceptable opnion is to say, "JP II was wrong to enfoce celibacy," or "JP II is a great guy for defeating Communism." HarvardOxon 22:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
This is getting silly. I obviously agree that the existence of an opinion is a fact, and that it is acceptable to post opinions that have been stated by various people (how could I not?). What I'm contesting here is the spirit of the article: even if it's purpose is to criticize JP II, there should still be a logical structure to the article (statements, citations, conclusions, etc.). My other issue is that very litte in this article is cited. It's just plain bothersome, since some very serious claims are made. Wikipedia rules define a fact as "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." There are serious disputes about the topics in question here, so we should find some sources. Thanks for your consideration, Pianoman123 02:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
OK OK. I am sensing a consensus building that this "criticism" material should be returned to the main JP2 article and definitely cited better. While I am not saying that is the best solution (albeit I have no idea what best would be here), this sounds to me to be a very good solution. Note (as below) that I have made (for better or worse) similar edits in both the "fork" article and the main JP2 article, so they will read similarly in many places. This may make consolidation easier - I hope it does.
No hard feelings Pianoman. When I'm perfect, I'll hold you to that standard too ;). But I still really, really want you to share what you feel is (1) original research; (2) opinions for which there is serious dispute about the fact that they are held (regardless whether the opinions are right, or wrong, or untestable, or...). While I mentioned that there is little material here I am not aware of, there still is some. But, of note, not opposition to JP2's support of Opus Dei, or to the Escrivá canonization, which you object to.
Anyway, I like this plan. Baccyak4H 04:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I think I can guess why you're pursuing this. You're probably wondering why I took issue with the Opus Dei section and not the others, since they're similar; I'll bet you're trying to discern a bias on my part in favor of Opus Dei or JP II. To be completely honest, my reaction to that section was a visceral one, mostly on account of the verbiage. What has bothered me all along is the word choice and phrasing:
"John Paul was criticised for his support for the Opus Dei prelature, which some argue is essentially a cult operating within the Church. Others criticised the canonization of its founder, Josemaría Escrivá."
This would be better:
"John Paul II was criticised for his approval of Opus Dei, a controversial personal prelature of the Catholic Church. Others criticised the canonization of its founder, Josemaría Escrivá."
This article is not about Opus Dei; it's about JP II. If someone wants a balanced description of what Opus Dei is, they can go to the Opus Dei WP page. But a one-phrase characterization simply doesn't do the issue justice, and seems to make a furtive argument against OD within the context of criticism of JP II. You've convinced me that we only need to mention one-sided criticism of JP II in this article (since that's the article's purpose), but I think that if another topic (Opus Dei) is described as part of the criticism, it should be presented objectively.
Pianoman123 21:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Great-- this sounds good to me. On the point about the support for OD and Escriva's canonization, I'm undecided. On the one hand, his connection with OD is obviously paramount. At the same time, one of the reasons some people criticized JP2 during the canonization was that it was expedited in a way to which they were not accustomed (this can be explained by a slight change in the Vatican policy on canonization, which caused some to see a connection between the policy tweak and Escriva). At the same time though, Escriva's process of canonization may have never received so much scrutiny were he not the founder of OD. So I'd say it's fair to make the edit you suggest above. Feel free to do so, of course. Best, Pianoman123 04:27, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Another note-- since the article appears to be growing, I was just noticing that about 95% of the material in this article is uncited. Some of it is undisputed, so it's fine. But it would help with the credibility if those who recently added material would find a few sources. Thanks Pianoman123 08:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Can someone explain to me why this is not a POV fork? -- Richard 03:57, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
This, and the other articles on John Paul II were created because of space. Before the article was broken up like this, it ran at one stage to over 100K. That is more than 3 times the maximum recommended article size. It is nothing to do with forking. It is to do with bringing the main article to a satisfactory length. This is done in all big articles. It is standard. Your forking theory is irrelevant. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 04:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree. I think we should merge this article with the
Pope John Paul II article. Besides, if we were to expand this article, it would undoubtedly overlap with much of what's already in the
Pope John Paul II article.
Pianoman123 16:43, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
You all raise some good points. I have been cleaning up both now for a few days because they both read (past tense) like a cut/paste/append hangover. That may be why they lately have read somewhat similarly (as Pianoman123 points out). There was a link from the relevant section of the main JP2 page here, but then it was gone, and then it was back... I have no objection to where the material is, I'll go with everyone else's consensus as to where it should be. Baccyak4H 03:08, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Update. I am leaning towards returning the criticism to the main article as (1) it does not add relatively much length to the article; (2) it avoids the ambiguity of whether an article of "criticism" is by definition not NPOV (while I disagree that it is by definition not NPOV, I admit to the ambiguity). In the above section, there was more apparent support for rejoining, but I defer to those contributors to (further) speak their respective cases. Baccyak4H 04:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
People need to keep those two terms apart. "Traditional teachings" are the actual historical teachings of the church. For many of the teachings listed, it is questionable whether they actually are traditional and citations would be needed to establish that. "Traditionalists teachings" are merely the teachings of a particular ideological branch of the church; despite the name, they do not necessarily actually stand for tradition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcarnelian ( talk • contribs) 18:10, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
Hey there folks!
So what's up with the relationship between the Pope and Latin American dictators like Pinochet? There's plenty of articles about it on the net, and pictures. I'm not a regular editor of Wikipedia but it'd be good if somebody who spent time in this article wrote something about it.
Cheers! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.20.44.191 ( talk) 12:27, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi! I removed the section, and it was put back, so I thought I'd bring it here to explain why I'm concerned that it doesn't fit into the article. :) Currently it is relying on a single source, the Time magazine article. In effect, the article says that Dr. Lina Pavanelli had surmised that the Pope was euthanised based on her observations on TV, coverage in the press and a book. That makes me a tad nervous, as it feels like weak evidence to draw such a conclusion from. However, she then surmises that Pope John Paul II must have been complicit in this. So we have her guessing that passive euthanasia was employed, and then guessing that he would have known - the result is a really poor argument on which to draw anything. When you then note that the Vatican specifically denied the claims, stating that he was given a feeding tube, then we're giving a dedicated section to a guess on a guess that is denied by those actually involved. Going beyond that, there is the question of whether or not a delay in providing a feeding tube was euthanasia - which is highly doubtful. Overall, it isn't even clear if it is criticism of Pope John Paul II, even assuming that it did occur. It feels out of place with the other criticisms, which relate more directly to things he did (or did not) do. - Bilby ( talk) 11:43, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
The opening line of the article reads: "Pope John Paul II was criticized, amongst other things,[1] for lack of any response ..."
The placement of the 'for' changes the meaning here between 'criticizing and things FOR lack of response' vs 'criticizing FOR lack of response and things'
So I propose the following change: "Pope John Paul II was criticized for, amongst other things,[1] lack of any response ..."
-- 72.214.182.27 ( talk) 20:04, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Criticism of Pope John Paul II. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 13:00, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Criticism of Pope John Paul II. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/abuse/abuse08.htmWhen you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:57, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Criticism of Pope John Paul II. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 14:53, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.193.228.106 ( talk) 22:24, 7 April 2022 (UTC)