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We need to be careful that the criticisms and links concern Christianity specifically, and not religion in general (there are other articles for that). KHM03 16:57, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
The God Hates fags movement is avowedly Christian. The fact that some Christians do not accept the movement and do not like it does not alter the fact that they regard themselves as being Christian. Please do not delete sections without discussing it on the talk page User KHM03 it is getting tiresome. I have not removed your clearly nonsensical POV section about Dawkins "ignoring reason"
This section is way too long, and I plan on cutting it considerably, if not deleting it altogether. There ought to be a concise section mentioning political issues (Rwanda being one), linked to other articles. But if the entire page is simply that, then it's a wasted article. Where are the meaningful theological critiques? KHM03 12:55, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Please sign your posts. KHM03 14:01, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I certainly don't want to ignore the disaster. But this article, isn't "Criticisms of Christians", which could be a very different piece...it's "Criticisms of Christianity". So, what doctrines or teachings or poisitions of Christianity caused or aided the Rwanda genocide? All I'm asking for is that you substantiate your claims. KHM03 14:16, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I'll give a little time for any interested editors to edit the section, showing how Christian teaching caused the genocide, but if that doesn't appear soon, the section will be remain POV and inappropriate and ought to go (it also ought to be shortened, for reading clarity). That seems fair. Remember, this article is "Criticisms of Christianity", not "Criticisms of Christians" or "Appalling things Christians have done". Show how Christian doctrine/teaching caused the Rwanda tragedy. KHM03 14:31, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
There needs to be a connection if this criticism belongs on this article. Also, the critique seems to be of Roman Catholic clergy; what about the Protestants? If it's a specifically Catholic criticism, then it needs to go to a more sepcific page. More impoortantly, please show how Christian teaching affected the tragedy. This is not "Criticisms of Christians", a page which could be MASSIVE in length...it's a critique of Christianity. Please show the connection. KHM03 16:08, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
OK, that's half the battle...now cite the impact of Christian teaching/doctrine on the tragedy...what teachings led to or contributed to the genocide. KHM03 16:43, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Markyjanet 05:59, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I question the citation of George Monibot; hardly any kind of authority. Also, it is in the section about morality, which makes little sense. If anyone can offer any justification here, maybe we can talk about it...otherwise, it will likely be deleted. KHM03 23:45, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
The picture of George Bush is WAY over the POV boundary. George Bush is a Christian but how are his policies representative of Christianity? What doctrines or teachings? This article is to be critiques of Christianity, not Christians. Let's keep our eyes on the ball, and try not to be as POV. KHM03 10:57, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
It seems to me that this is where the "meat" of the article ought to be. I added a request for expansion. KHM03 12:59, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
This is another section which badly needs work. We can cite many sources critical of the Christian (particularly Roman Catholic) response to AIDS...why a political radical? We can do better. KHM03 13:06, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Much of the critiques & quotes in this section likely valid, but could the editor who placed them please give the sources? It would help improve the article and the veracity of the section. Thanks... KHM03 14:43, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I just stumbled across this page a few minutes ago. Surely Wikipedia policy is to present both sides? Also, is this Criticisms of Christianity or Criticisms of Christians? If it's meant to be "of Christianity", then it should deal with certain key teachings (that Jesus was the Son of God, for example), and present the arguments to show that that belief is erroneous, followed by the Christian counter-arguments. If it's meant to be "Criticisms of Christians", then it doesn't seem very appropriate for a Wikipedia article. As far as I know, we haven't got any articles called Criticisms of Bank Managers, Criticisms of Women, Criticisms of Italians, or Criticisms of Homosexuals. AnnH (talk) 23:30, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Why Str1977 did you remove the section on Relevance to contemporary society? Could you please explain why this did not contain a valid criticism? Why does it need to be removed? Please strive to be NPOV. If you think a counter point of view explaining why sacrificing pigeons is a good thing then please do so. Please do not simply destroy things you personally disagree with. I have to say I fail to see how sacrificing pigeons is relevant to contemporary society, but it set out in black and white in the Bible. Hence a discussion of the issues surrounding it should be encouraged.
Nowhere in "The Communist Masnifesto" does it state that one should massacre opponents, or hold people in Gulags in Siberia, or have large scale killing. Yet this did occur in both China and Russia. Are you honestly suggesting Str1977 that such policies do not belong in the "Criticisms of Communism" article? I also can't get over your point about it being "just" Christians, and not "Christianity". Does criticism of Christianity not include criticism of the Christian Church? Jamestherage 08:19, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the "Relevance to contemporary society" section, I think that it would be a good idea if you find some sources who know just a little about Christianity and the Bible before you post their criticisms. It could hardly be more ridiculous; which, of course, your sources would not recognize, because they don't know enough to see the joke. — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 08:34, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
The source is the bible itself. The Bible clearly states that lambs and or pigeons should be sacrificed in front of women whop have recently given birth. I notice you describe this as "patent nonsense". Maybe so, but it is certainly true that the quotes exist in the bible. Perhaps you could provide evidence of people sacrificing pigeons, as the bible states you must do to show that the bible is still relevant to today. Simply ignoring problems with your faith doesn't make them go away. Jamestherage 08:47, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I'll tell you what. If you can find just ONE published "critic" who says what you say "they" say, then you can keep their staggering bit of scholarship in the article. In fact, you can move it to the top, right above where it says that Christians have a problem with Reason, as prominently as possible. — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 08:50, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Mark, I have provided links to the sections in the bible that refer to the sacrifice of pigeons. I hardly think it controversial to state that pigeon sacrifice is ignored by most people. Perhaps I am wrong however. I am willing to concede that pigeon sacrifice is a normal part of contemporary society, which would make the criticism invalid. Or is it accurate to state that parts of the Bible are simply ignored by many Christians? Jamestherage 09:00, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
What Mark is calling you to do is prove that "your" argument is not Original Research but criticism (invalid though it may be IMHO) by actual people. Who criticizes Christianity that way - except for Jamestherage. Str1977 09:12, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
The first point might be relevant somewhere but certainly not here.
I have read what you wrote and also the Bible passage. I have read the entire Bible. Have you?
Merely quoting the Bible is not enough.
Which organisation devoted to religious tolerance is that?
It is not only POV but beyond any understanding of Christianity (and you as a former Christian should know) to criticize Christians for not practicing "pigeon sacrifice" when they are not supposed to do this. Yes, Ann gives the explanation in the shortest possible form. I'd say it's more complicated than that, but the gist is provided by her. Read the New Testament. Christianity is not Judaism (and note that no one levels this king of "criticism" to Judaism.) A longer explanation, if you want one, later. Str1977 09:49, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Just find the source who will speak for you, Jamestherage. Maybe your search will lead you to something that deserves to be posted here, but I can assure you that it won't be what you put in that section. — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 09:45, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Noone is stating that we should "disregard the whole of the NT" as you state above. Noone is speaking for me. I've included the sources. I'm just getting a bit tired of it all. Can you not see that is what it states in the Bible? And how this is out of step with contemporary society? I think I have made it pretty clear what the Bible and ReligiousTolerance state. If you want to challenge their view then go ahead. Just stop trying to pin everything on me personally. Jamestherage 09:58, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
You repeatedly show that you don't read the actual text in question. "Which organisation devoted to religious tolerance is that?" Perhaps the one I provided a link to in the text in discussion. Also, please can you not personalise this discussion so much. Yes I have read the entire Bible, since you ask. Asking me about my personal beliefs is not really relevant to creating an encyclopedia. Jamestherage 09:58, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Please don't just throw on a neutrality banner and leave it at that. If you want to critique the quotations please do so. I'm trying hard to find common ground on this one, and I've already edited out parts of this section that could concieveably be seen as NPOV. I've also altered the heading of the section. Just answer me this: Is it right or wrong to state that parts of the Bible are ignored? Jamestherage 10:02, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I have noticed the change. Though I still think the section to be moot, at least now the section agrees with its header.
Quick answer: It is wrong to say that parts of the Bible are ignored. If they are not followed as in 300 BC that is due to theologcial reasons. However that's not ignorance. (Obviously, I'm referring to Christianity or the Church on the whole - of course individual Christians much too often ignore parts of the Bible. Otherwise, there would be absolutely no basis for the Ruanda section).
I will get back to you later. Str1977 10:08, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Also could everyone try and spell "Rwanda" correctly. If one can't even remember how to spell the name of the country it suggests a lack of knowledge of the issue. [10:25, 14 September 2005 User:202.136.241.101
I left a message about 3RR for Jamestherage at his talk page [5]. More relevant to this talk page is the following point: James, you also need to have a look at WP:NOR, because even if your views on Christianity and pigeon sacrifice are correct, they can't go into the article under Wikipedia rules. You'd need something like, Professor X W, in his book, Pigeons and Lambs: an examination of Christian and pre-Christian Rituals (1997) argued that the practice of sacrificing lambs was a proof of the errors of Christian teaching. This claim was contradicted by Dr Y Z in his article "The Abolishment of Ritual in New Testament Teaching" (1999) in which he stated that these old laws had been abolished by Jesus, and had never been practiced by any mainstream Christian denomination. Wikipedia articles are not allowed to be based on what Jamestherage thinks and what Musical Linguist thinks. Regards, AnnH (talk) 11:59, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Frankly, I am getting very frustrated by this article and discussion. I believe this is an important topic that has the potential to be a useful, informative and balanced article. But some of the editors seem compltely unable to step away from their POV and make the article as good as it can be. Instead of taking the constructive criticsms that have been offered and trying to make the exisiting sections stronger (with better sources and more thoughtful criticisms) we get more new, poorly written, poorly sourced, very POV sections that are at best tangentally related to the topic (The KKK????) Most of these criticsms seem to just be a collection of petulant or inflamatory quotes of people saying mean things about Christians. It is not helpful, and it is getting worse instead of better. 209.145.162.130 16:31, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I removed a paragraph or two citing the creation stories as some kind of problem in Christianity. It is only a problem for those who affirm inerrancy (fundamentalists and their close cousins), but not for the bulk of the world's Christians. No inconsistency there...just two separate accounts (which academia...even Christian academia...deems are likely from different sources. KHM03 15:38, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, my point is that the notion that there is one unified creation story in Genesis is far from definitive for Christians; to use it as a point of inconsistency wouldn't be entirely accurate since it isn't a real issue for most of Christendom 9since inerrancy isn't an issue for most of Christendom). It's a criticism of certain parts of Christianity, but not of Christianity as a whole.
And, in the interest of full disclosure, I do believe that Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are two separate accounts, neither of which I tend to take literally. KHM03 21:19, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
This is absurd. How much worse can this article get? MORE POV? MORE inaccurate? How sad. KHM03 23:32, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
...but it's a criticism of a small group. It's equivalent to saying, "Atheists are bad because Stalin killed millions." Is Stalin representative of atheists? Does he determine atheistic norms? That's why 99% of this article has become woefully POV. KHM03 23:58, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
But one can pick and choose what groups one identifies as representative of Christianity (or atheism). To make the claim that Stalin was an atheist, and he killed millions, therefore atheists are murderers is not fair, not NPOV, not accurate. That "logic" stems from a particular POV. OR...one can recognize that Stalin is not representative of atheism, and that most atheists, in fact, have not committed a single murder. But as long as folks are committed to a particular POV, this article will remain unfair and inaccurate. Whether the Stalin thing is a "common criticism" or not isn't the point...the point is whether it's a fair, accurate criticism. There were, for example, "common criticisms" of African-Americans in the mid-20th century...inaccurate and unfair, mind you, but common. Ought they be listed on an NPOV Wiki page? Of course not. BUT...some of the editors of this article don't mind that kind of "logic"...hence the page is a complete disgrace. KHM03 10:37, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
There are real, valid criticisms of Christianity; they have largely been ignored. Not entirely sure why. The creationism stuff, for example, is not representative of Christianity; most Christians in America send their kids to public school without worrying a bit about the evolution debates. A small group pushes its own view, which most Christians in the world do not affirm. To take a small, unrepresentative group and say, "Look what the Christians are doing," is wholly inaccurate. Accuracy doesn't seem to be a concern in this article. KHM03 13:12, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Once again, I state that the article contains primarily Criticisms of Christians, not of Christianity. The shame is that there are real, valid critiques of the Trinity, the Atonement, the Incarnation, Apocalypticism, etc., but somed editors' POV has prevented these discussions from taking place in favor of political axes-to-grind. I favor a rewrite of the entire article, to eliminate the imbalance and gross POV violations and begin to create a really viable, accurate article. KHM03 13:06, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
(Moved Replies down to Historicity section)
I have to say I'm getting a bit annoyed with people who say something to the effect of "I acknoledge that group of people A is Christian, and they follow the Christian Bible. I also agree that their action is wrong, and deserves Criticism. However, we should all ignore these people as they are a fringe minority". Its happened before with the God Hates Fags movement, now other people are trying to claim it for other Christian groups. "Yes", they argue "we agree that they are Christian, and should be criticised, but they can't appear on the 'Criticisms of Christianity' page because ... erm .. because they are a minority". There is a whole section on 'Persecution of Christians' that points to a whole range of activities that were conduced by small fringes. Does that mean the behaviour of small fringes of people who have attacked and vilified Christians should be ignored? No, of course not. So lets stop trying to ignore the actions of these avowedly Christian groups that many of us here disagree with. Markyjanet 13:41, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I think we can all find faults with things we love. I love Christianity with a passion. But does that mean I should ignore real criticisms? I have encountered problems in my own church with my status as a women. I think it only right that we should pay some attention to this issue. Only then can we let God's love shine into our hearts. Lizzyfoursixty 07:05, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Sure, but it should be addressed and structured properly. I think there's way too much (and even redundant) stuff on the "ordination" thing (which is not proper criticism anyway), then a quote from Ecclesiasticus that's a bit out of place. Most of all, what are Fallwell's "Frustrated lesbians" doing here. Is it supposed to highlight a preacher's ranting (in which case it is not criticism of Christianity), is it supposed to portray Christian opposition to some feminist activists (in which case it is slightly off-topic and a bad example), or is it meant as a counterpoint (in which case it's a bad example).
Misleading and in effect insulting is the sentence "The Christian Church still regards Thomas Aquinas as a saint".
1) It is the Catholic Church that recognizes him as a Saint. I am a Catholic, but Protestants might disagree with this sentence.
2) It suggests that the Church approves of this sentence. Canonisation doesn't mean that everything a Saint ever said or did is true.
3) I'm sorry to say that the word "still" bears witness to (unfortunately not seldom form of) ignorance to the Catholic faith. Once a saint, always a saint.
Str1977 09:36, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Secular historians & scholars have discredited Doherty's work. It's only here to add fuel to the fire, not as a legitimate, meaningful critique. KHM03 00:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
I have edited it "according to its merits". BTW, I am a historian and so I know how to do historiography. First you to have sources - and this is were Doherty, judging from his claims quoted here, already fails (but with him many modern exegetes): You have to critique your sources, yes, compare with other sources, yes, but you cannot just erase and deny on the basis of ... well, actually, no contrary evidence. Str1977 00:07, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Historicity is one of the best criticism of Christianity. Feel free to cite something that discredits the theory. But, even without it it is a criticism of Christianity. Few more quick notes, how do you figure removing several paragraphs is a "minor" edit? Also, if you want the Pet 3:7 line, at least make it flow better. Sure, men own their wives according to the Bible, but the Bible also says to treat them well. It really doesn't fit well shoved on the end like that. Tat 10:43, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
As for the Christianity and Historicity section thejesuspuzzle has a few posted critiques. Although, to date the only one that gets pointed out is that it's not a mainstream theory. Tat 11:39, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
There is a tremendous POV problem. I added a section called Christian responses to criticisms and put a stub to the section. I suggest material be added ASAP. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.205.191.56 ( talk • contribs) 19:00, 25 September 2005 (UTC).
This section, including the possibility of deleting it, is also being discussed below at #Post-Giovanni33 Copyedit. Further comments should probably go there. Aaron McDaid ( talk - contribs) 18:10, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Any objections to a major overhaul of this article? KHM03 00:10, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
HERE is a new page to rewrite this one, which we can hopefully improve. Everyone is welcome to participate. KHM03 10:48, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
Any objections to redirecting this mess to the "criticisms" section of the Christianity article? Just wondering. KHM03 20:32, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
"that there seem to be two different versions of the creation story in the Book of Genesis. In the first Genesis 1, Adam and Eve are created out of clay or dust. In Genesis 2, Adam is created, gets lonely and God makes Eve out of Adam's rib. Even if one were to say that the second story is just to clarify the first, it doesn't explain the dual creation of Eve, in the opinion of some."
The author of this argument seems only to be refering to: Quote: Genesis 1:26-28:
26 "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
What the author wrote himself is quite inconsistent at this point because God was refering to the fact:
1. that "he made both male and female", not necessarily refering to the time that it was written
2. Verse 27 explicitly states: "in the image of God, he created him" (refering to Adam)" at that time. (the Bible doesn't "explicitly state" "in the image of God, he created them, refering at that point to Adam + Eve)
3. Location: Adam and Eve were created in the Garden of Eden, back then if you know about "Pangea" was quite bigger then the Garden of Eden itself so at this point, the Bible could be refering to everything else out of the Garden of Eden. (writer's note: I don't think "God" would be stupid to just create Adam + Eve in the Garden of Eden)
Here's a verse from the aftermath of the killing of Abel: Genesis 4:15-24 says:
"15 But the LORD said to him, "Not so ; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him.
16 So Cain went out from the LORD's presence and lived in the land of Nod, [f] east of Eden.
17 Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch. 18 To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad was the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael was the father of Methushael, and Methushael was the father of Lamech.
19 Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah.
20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock.
21 His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play the harp and flute.
22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of [g] bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain's sister was Naamah.
23 Lamech said to his wives,
"Adah and Zillah, listen to me; wives of Lamech, hear my words. I have killed [h] a man for wounding me, a young man for injuring me.
24 If Cain is avenged seven times,
then Lamech seventy-seven times."
4. As Genesis 4:16 says: Cain left God's presence and "lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden". This means there had to be other lands (with other people) either then the Garden of Eden.
In my opinion and in a somewhat Biblical-scientific context, the argument has way too little evidence to support it's allegation of inconsistency.
It should be deleted.
Cite: http://www.biblegateway.org/passage/?search=Genesis%201-5;&version=31;
-- N0N4am0r 01:28, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
- I should add:
Reasons for more people either then Adam and Eve:
-- N0N4am0r 01:47, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
"the story logic of Christianity itself is inconsistent. Many such critiques focus on the idea of a blood sacrific of God to God. "For God so loved the world that he sacrificed himself to himself to appease himself so if you believe this story, He will not be forced to torture you forever."
umm.... you know that John 3:16 has billions (exageration) of translations I can quote different versions and aren't "illogical".
John 3:16 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society NIV at IBS International Bible Society NIV at Zondervan Zondervan
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
and
John 3:16 (King James Version) King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain A Public Domain Bible KJV at Zondervan Zondervan
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
If critics can't understand this, what would this world become? This is what the verse is saying (if you don't understand):
God created this world and loved it so much, but then Adam and Eve sinned (Genesis 3) thus the world could of been forsaken. God instead, choose to give his son (Jesus) (Matthew 27:32-54) up in return for the lost souls (lives) of sinners. Basically he gave us the gift of salvation (as the christians call it) for free, we just have to believe in him so we don't get sent to Hell (also how christians interprete it).
More clarification: God created a world for us to live in (Genesis 1:26-30) and to rule but our ancestors (Adam and Eve) sinned thus we were all doomed but God chose to save us. Simple as that.
-- N0N4am0r 01:41, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
We are all aware of how Christians traditionally interpret John 3:16. That quote isn't meant to be a translation; it's a satirical rewording of John 3:16 intended to clarify why many non-Christians find the claim in John 3:16 inconsistent. It has to do with the theological doctrine of the Trinity; the source page might help you understand. It is a legitimate criticism, but perhaps the reasons for the criticism could be expanded. (I might come back and do it at a better time.) -- The Famous Movie Director 05:17, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
vs.
There are several documented instances (see Rwandan Genocide) of actual direct refusal, not merely neglection. Discuss? Clinkophonist 22:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Uncle G 13:04, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
I think there is lots of overlap in some areas - why not create
and then make the relevant sections here just brief summaries? -- Clinkophonist 15:19, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
How does it look now? Clinkophonist 14:37, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Christianity, and Biblical adherance has been redirected to Christianity and Biblical adherence. Better title. I think I've improved POV problems in the article too, please see what you think. -- The Famous Movie Director 01:28, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
The Christianity, tolerance, and equality article's content is entirely critical of Christianity; it seems reasonable to merge it with the content here. Any objections? Wesley 16:56, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Please see this version of this article. The content of that version was specifically seperated and moved to Christianity, tolerance, and equality in order to enable it to be NPOVed better. The content is not a POV fork of the article, it is what this article said before I moved it and replaced it with a more NPOV summary. I.e. you are calling the older version of this article a POV fork of my later summary of it. Clinkophonist 20:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Your vote was to take the more neutral content here, merge in a POV fork, and de-POV that content. THERE IS NO POV FORK. That is actually essentially what THIS article said before I removed it. I propose therefore that your vote is irrelevant - you are voting about a situation that doesn't exist. m:Polls are evil.
The whole point of cutting it out of this article and putting it somewhere else was so that it would be under a wider vaguer title that would automatically cause it to be de-POVed simply by having to comply with the title and include discussion of the flip side of the coin - examples FOR tolerance, etc.
Placing the material in this article invites people to increase the criticism, placing it there invites people to provide the counter-issues, and allows it to cover a better more worthy topic - see Uncle G's comment some way above.
Some of the ethical decisions in the Bible, especially the Old Testament are considered morally questionable by many modern groups, and often do not match up to modern expectations. Some of the assertions critics claim that the Bible makes include the subjugation of women, condemnation of (perhaps only some forms of) homosexuality, and the order to commit the genocide of the Canaanites. Some critics and religious groups argue that these situations should be judged by the standards of the time, which they match much more closely. Additionally, some Christian denominations and theologians interpret these passages in other ways which do not support the subjugation of women, etc.
It has been proposed that Anti-Christianity be merged and redirected into this article. I have proposed on that article's talk page that, instead, a new article, Anti-Christian prejudice be created by merging Anti-Christianity and Christianophobia, possibly with additional material from this article. Comments and suggestions on that talk page would be appreciated. This article could then be restricted to rational and philosophical criticisms of Christianity, while negative prejudices (even those with a rational basis) could be placed in the new article. JHCC (talk) 16:48, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
UPDATE: Christianophobia has been moved to Anti-Christian prejudice and expanded. The article still needs work, and contributions would be welcome. JHCC (talk) 19:09, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Critics have argued that Biblical teachings stating that a women's role is one of "submission" is somewhat at odds with contemporary views of sexual equality. Dr Linda M. Woolf, Professor of Psychology, Webster University has stated that [3] "Unlike men, however, many women are allowed only an internal spiritual or religious experience and are often denied leadership roles or roles that foster any form of externalization of their faith."
Elizabeth Dodson Gray argued that Christianity "continue to place women in a subservient role that demands their silence and obedience" (National Catholic Reporter, April 1, 1994 v30 n22 p21).
When read in context, both of these critics are speaking specifically about the ordination of women. Does it never occur to them that less than 5% of men are ordained either, thus supposedly leaving 95% of men with "only an internal spiritual or religious experience" and similarly denied any role "that foster[s] any form or externalization of their faith"? The criticism is made and cited, so I'm not removing it outright, but it's weak to the point of being laughable. The broader essay by Woolf goes on to say that the real problems for women came when in America they were told to submit to beatings by drunken husbands and denied the right to vote. (I think she neglected to mention the right to own property.) Those are much bigger problems than just not being ordained, but those problems are not nearly as widespread as the ordination policy. I guess my question is whether this is worth keeping in the article. Wesley 17:54, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I feel this question needs to be asked because several commentors don't seem to comprehend that Criticism is not the same thing as an Attack, and can include praise. Clinkophonist 21:35, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Moved here from the article: Africa has the greatest incidence of AIDS per capita in the world, and the heavy proportion of fundamentalist Christians in Africa, all expounding the abstinance-not-condoms message, is widely viewed as contributing to this.
There are at least three uncited claims in this sentence, two of which I rather doubt. First, the incidence of AIDS per capita in Africa is so high in large part because Africa uses a much broader clinical definition of "AIDS" than is used in North America and many other parts of the world. Any sickness that might be connected with the immune system, or that has symptoms vaguely similar to those experienced by what the US considers AIDS patients, are labeled AIDS cases, at least partly in order to qualify for more international aid. Drug companies also stand to benefit from an overbroad definition.
Second, I strongly doubt that there even exist any statistics on the proportion of fundamentalist Christians in Africa; if there were any reputable stats, I rather doubt they would show that such Christians are in a 'heavy proportion.'
Thirdly, the "widely viewed as contributing to this" is completely without context. Widely viewed by whom? The wikipedian who wrote that paragraph and a dozen of his friends? Wesley 05:16, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Criticism of Christianity/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Article fails to reflect a global view of the subject, as per tag on the article page. Badbilltucker 01:54, 23 January 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 01:54, 23 January 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 20:21, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
We need to be careful that the criticisms and links concern Christianity specifically, and not religion in general (there are other articles for that). KHM03 16:57, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
The God Hates fags movement is avowedly Christian. The fact that some Christians do not accept the movement and do not like it does not alter the fact that they regard themselves as being Christian. Please do not delete sections without discussing it on the talk page User KHM03 it is getting tiresome. I have not removed your clearly nonsensical POV section about Dawkins "ignoring reason"
This section is way too long, and I plan on cutting it considerably, if not deleting it altogether. There ought to be a concise section mentioning political issues (Rwanda being one), linked to other articles. But if the entire page is simply that, then it's a wasted article. Where are the meaningful theological critiques? KHM03 12:55, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Please sign your posts. KHM03 14:01, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I certainly don't want to ignore the disaster. But this article, isn't "Criticisms of Christians", which could be a very different piece...it's "Criticisms of Christianity". So, what doctrines or teachings or poisitions of Christianity caused or aided the Rwanda genocide? All I'm asking for is that you substantiate your claims. KHM03 14:16, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I'll give a little time for any interested editors to edit the section, showing how Christian teaching caused the genocide, but if that doesn't appear soon, the section will be remain POV and inappropriate and ought to go (it also ought to be shortened, for reading clarity). That seems fair. Remember, this article is "Criticisms of Christianity", not "Criticisms of Christians" or "Appalling things Christians have done". Show how Christian doctrine/teaching caused the Rwanda tragedy. KHM03 14:31, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
There needs to be a connection if this criticism belongs on this article. Also, the critique seems to be of Roman Catholic clergy; what about the Protestants? If it's a specifically Catholic criticism, then it needs to go to a more sepcific page. More impoortantly, please show how Christian teaching affected the tragedy. This is not "Criticisms of Christians", a page which could be MASSIVE in length...it's a critique of Christianity. Please show the connection. KHM03 16:08, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
OK, that's half the battle...now cite the impact of Christian teaching/doctrine on the tragedy...what teachings led to or contributed to the genocide. KHM03 16:43, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Markyjanet 05:59, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I question the citation of George Monibot; hardly any kind of authority. Also, it is in the section about morality, which makes little sense. If anyone can offer any justification here, maybe we can talk about it...otherwise, it will likely be deleted. KHM03 23:45, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
The picture of George Bush is WAY over the POV boundary. George Bush is a Christian but how are his policies representative of Christianity? What doctrines or teachings? This article is to be critiques of Christianity, not Christians. Let's keep our eyes on the ball, and try not to be as POV. KHM03 10:57, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
It seems to me that this is where the "meat" of the article ought to be. I added a request for expansion. KHM03 12:59, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
This is another section which badly needs work. We can cite many sources critical of the Christian (particularly Roman Catholic) response to AIDS...why a political radical? We can do better. KHM03 13:06, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Much of the critiques & quotes in this section likely valid, but could the editor who placed them please give the sources? It would help improve the article and the veracity of the section. Thanks... KHM03 14:43, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I just stumbled across this page a few minutes ago. Surely Wikipedia policy is to present both sides? Also, is this Criticisms of Christianity or Criticisms of Christians? If it's meant to be "of Christianity", then it should deal with certain key teachings (that Jesus was the Son of God, for example), and present the arguments to show that that belief is erroneous, followed by the Christian counter-arguments. If it's meant to be "Criticisms of Christians", then it doesn't seem very appropriate for a Wikipedia article. As far as I know, we haven't got any articles called Criticisms of Bank Managers, Criticisms of Women, Criticisms of Italians, or Criticisms of Homosexuals. AnnH (talk) 23:30, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Why Str1977 did you remove the section on Relevance to contemporary society? Could you please explain why this did not contain a valid criticism? Why does it need to be removed? Please strive to be NPOV. If you think a counter point of view explaining why sacrificing pigeons is a good thing then please do so. Please do not simply destroy things you personally disagree with. I have to say I fail to see how sacrificing pigeons is relevant to contemporary society, but it set out in black and white in the Bible. Hence a discussion of the issues surrounding it should be encouraged.
Nowhere in "The Communist Masnifesto" does it state that one should massacre opponents, or hold people in Gulags in Siberia, or have large scale killing. Yet this did occur in both China and Russia. Are you honestly suggesting Str1977 that such policies do not belong in the "Criticisms of Communism" article? I also can't get over your point about it being "just" Christians, and not "Christianity". Does criticism of Christianity not include criticism of the Christian Church? Jamestherage 08:19, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the "Relevance to contemporary society" section, I think that it would be a good idea if you find some sources who know just a little about Christianity and the Bible before you post their criticisms. It could hardly be more ridiculous; which, of course, your sources would not recognize, because they don't know enough to see the joke. — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 08:34, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
The source is the bible itself. The Bible clearly states that lambs and or pigeons should be sacrificed in front of women whop have recently given birth. I notice you describe this as "patent nonsense". Maybe so, but it is certainly true that the quotes exist in the bible. Perhaps you could provide evidence of people sacrificing pigeons, as the bible states you must do to show that the bible is still relevant to today. Simply ignoring problems with your faith doesn't make them go away. Jamestherage 08:47, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I'll tell you what. If you can find just ONE published "critic" who says what you say "they" say, then you can keep their staggering bit of scholarship in the article. In fact, you can move it to the top, right above where it says that Christians have a problem with Reason, as prominently as possible. — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 08:50, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Mark, I have provided links to the sections in the bible that refer to the sacrifice of pigeons. I hardly think it controversial to state that pigeon sacrifice is ignored by most people. Perhaps I am wrong however. I am willing to concede that pigeon sacrifice is a normal part of contemporary society, which would make the criticism invalid. Or is it accurate to state that parts of the Bible are simply ignored by many Christians? Jamestherage 09:00, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
What Mark is calling you to do is prove that "your" argument is not Original Research but criticism (invalid though it may be IMHO) by actual people. Who criticizes Christianity that way - except for Jamestherage. Str1977 09:12, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
The first point might be relevant somewhere but certainly not here.
I have read what you wrote and also the Bible passage. I have read the entire Bible. Have you?
Merely quoting the Bible is not enough.
Which organisation devoted to religious tolerance is that?
It is not only POV but beyond any understanding of Christianity (and you as a former Christian should know) to criticize Christians for not practicing "pigeon sacrifice" when they are not supposed to do this. Yes, Ann gives the explanation in the shortest possible form. I'd say it's more complicated than that, but the gist is provided by her. Read the New Testament. Christianity is not Judaism (and note that no one levels this king of "criticism" to Judaism.) A longer explanation, if you want one, later. Str1977 09:49, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Just find the source who will speak for you, Jamestherage. Maybe your search will lead you to something that deserves to be posted here, but I can assure you that it won't be what you put in that section. — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 09:45, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Noone is stating that we should "disregard the whole of the NT" as you state above. Noone is speaking for me. I've included the sources. I'm just getting a bit tired of it all. Can you not see that is what it states in the Bible? And how this is out of step with contemporary society? I think I have made it pretty clear what the Bible and ReligiousTolerance state. If you want to challenge their view then go ahead. Just stop trying to pin everything on me personally. Jamestherage 09:58, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
You repeatedly show that you don't read the actual text in question. "Which organisation devoted to religious tolerance is that?" Perhaps the one I provided a link to in the text in discussion. Also, please can you not personalise this discussion so much. Yes I have read the entire Bible, since you ask. Asking me about my personal beliefs is not really relevant to creating an encyclopedia. Jamestherage 09:58, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Please don't just throw on a neutrality banner and leave it at that. If you want to critique the quotations please do so. I'm trying hard to find common ground on this one, and I've already edited out parts of this section that could concieveably be seen as NPOV. I've also altered the heading of the section. Just answer me this: Is it right or wrong to state that parts of the Bible are ignored? Jamestherage 10:02, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I have noticed the change. Though I still think the section to be moot, at least now the section agrees with its header.
Quick answer: It is wrong to say that parts of the Bible are ignored. If they are not followed as in 300 BC that is due to theologcial reasons. However that's not ignorance. (Obviously, I'm referring to Christianity or the Church on the whole - of course individual Christians much too often ignore parts of the Bible. Otherwise, there would be absolutely no basis for the Ruanda section).
I will get back to you later. Str1977 10:08, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Also could everyone try and spell "Rwanda" correctly. If one can't even remember how to spell the name of the country it suggests a lack of knowledge of the issue. [10:25, 14 September 2005 User:202.136.241.101
I left a message about 3RR for Jamestherage at his talk page [5]. More relevant to this talk page is the following point: James, you also need to have a look at WP:NOR, because even if your views on Christianity and pigeon sacrifice are correct, they can't go into the article under Wikipedia rules. You'd need something like, Professor X W, in his book, Pigeons and Lambs: an examination of Christian and pre-Christian Rituals (1997) argued that the practice of sacrificing lambs was a proof of the errors of Christian teaching. This claim was contradicted by Dr Y Z in his article "The Abolishment of Ritual in New Testament Teaching" (1999) in which he stated that these old laws had been abolished by Jesus, and had never been practiced by any mainstream Christian denomination. Wikipedia articles are not allowed to be based on what Jamestherage thinks and what Musical Linguist thinks. Regards, AnnH (talk) 11:59, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Frankly, I am getting very frustrated by this article and discussion. I believe this is an important topic that has the potential to be a useful, informative and balanced article. But some of the editors seem compltely unable to step away from their POV and make the article as good as it can be. Instead of taking the constructive criticsms that have been offered and trying to make the exisiting sections stronger (with better sources and more thoughtful criticisms) we get more new, poorly written, poorly sourced, very POV sections that are at best tangentally related to the topic (The KKK????) Most of these criticsms seem to just be a collection of petulant or inflamatory quotes of people saying mean things about Christians. It is not helpful, and it is getting worse instead of better. 209.145.162.130 16:31, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I removed a paragraph or two citing the creation stories as some kind of problem in Christianity. It is only a problem for those who affirm inerrancy (fundamentalists and their close cousins), but not for the bulk of the world's Christians. No inconsistency there...just two separate accounts (which academia...even Christian academia...deems are likely from different sources. KHM03 15:38, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, my point is that the notion that there is one unified creation story in Genesis is far from definitive for Christians; to use it as a point of inconsistency wouldn't be entirely accurate since it isn't a real issue for most of Christendom 9since inerrancy isn't an issue for most of Christendom). It's a criticism of certain parts of Christianity, but not of Christianity as a whole.
And, in the interest of full disclosure, I do believe that Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are two separate accounts, neither of which I tend to take literally. KHM03 21:19, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
This is absurd. How much worse can this article get? MORE POV? MORE inaccurate? How sad. KHM03 23:32, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
...but it's a criticism of a small group. It's equivalent to saying, "Atheists are bad because Stalin killed millions." Is Stalin representative of atheists? Does he determine atheistic norms? That's why 99% of this article has become woefully POV. KHM03 23:58, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
But one can pick and choose what groups one identifies as representative of Christianity (or atheism). To make the claim that Stalin was an atheist, and he killed millions, therefore atheists are murderers is not fair, not NPOV, not accurate. That "logic" stems from a particular POV. OR...one can recognize that Stalin is not representative of atheism, and that most atheists, in fact, have not committed a single murder. But as long as folks are committed to a particular POV, this article will remain unfair and inaccurate. Whether the Stalin thing is a "common criticism" or not isn't the point...the point is whether it's a fair, accurate criticism. There were, for example, "common criticisms" of African-Americans in the mid-20th century...inaccurate and unfair, mind you, but common. Ought they be listed on an NPOV Wiki page? Of course not. BUT...some of the editors of this article don't mind that kind of "logic"...hence the page is a complete disgrace. KHM03 10:37, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
There are real, valid criticisms of Christianity; they have largely been ignored. Not entirely sure why. The creationism stuff, for example, is not representative of Christianity; most Christians in America send their kids to public school without worrying a bit about the evolution debates. A small group pushes its own view, which most Christians in the world do not affirm. To take a small, unrepresentative group and say, "Look what the Christians are doing," is wholly inaccurate. Accuracy doesn't seem to be a concern in this article. KHM03 13:12, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Once again, I state that the article contains primarily Criticisms of Christians, not of Christianity. The shame is that there are real, valid critiques of the Trinity, the Atonement, the Incarnation, Apocalypticism, etc., but somed editors' POV has prevented these discussions from taking place in favor of political axes-to-grind. I favor a rewrite of the entire article, to eliminate the imbalance and gross POV violations and begin to create a really viable, accurate article. KHM03 13:06, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
(Moved Replies down to Historicity section)
I have to say I'm getting a bit annoyed with people who say something to the effect of "I acknoledge that group of people A is Christian, and they follow the Christian Bible. I also agree that their action is wrong, and deserves Criticism. However, we should all ignore these people as they are a fringe minority". Its happened before with the God Hates Fags movement, now other people are trying to claim it for other Christian groups. "Yes", they argue "we agree that they are Christian, and should be criticised, but they can't appear on the 'Criticisms of Christianity' page because ... erm .. because they are a minority". There is a whole section on 'Persecution of Christians' that points to a whole range of activities that were conduced by small fringes. Does that mean the behaviour of small fringes of people who have attacked and vilified Christians should be ignored? No, of course not. So lets stop trying to ignore the actions of these avowedly Christian groups that many of us here disagree with. Markyjanet 13:41, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I think we can all find faults with things we love. I love Christianity with a passion. But does that mean I should ignore real criticisms? I have encountered problems in my own church with my status as a women. I think it only right that we should pay some attention to this issue. Only then can we let God's love shine into our hearts. Lizzyfoursixty 07:05, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Sure, but it should be addressed and structured properly. I think there's way too much (and even redundant) stuff on the "ordination" thing (which is not proper criticism anyway), then a quote from Ecclesiasticus that's a bit out of place. Most of all, what are Fallwell's "Frustrated lesbians" doing here. Is it supposed to highlight a preacher's ranting (in which case it is not criticism of Christianity), is it supposed to portray Christian opposition to some feminist activists (in which case it is slightly off-topic and a bad example), or is it meant as a counterpoint (in which case it's a bad example).
Misleading and in effect insulting is the sentence "The Christian Church still regards Thomas Aquinas as a saint".
1) It is the Catholic Church that recognizes him as a Saint. I am a Catholic, but Protestants might disagree with this sentence.
2) It suggests that the Church approves of this sentence. Canonisation doesn't mean that everything a Saint ever said or did is true.
3) I'm sorry to say that the word "still" bears witness to (unfortunately not seldom form of) ignorance to the Catholic faith. Once a saint, always a saint.
Str1977 09:36, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Secular historians & scholars have discredited Doherty's work. It's only here to add fuel to the fire, not as a legitimate, meaningful critique. KHM03 00:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
I have edited it "according to its merits". BTW, I am a historian and so I know how to do historiography. First you to have sources - and this is were Doherty, judging from his claims quoted here, already fails (but with him many modern exegetes): You have to critique your sources, yes, compare with other sources, yes, but you cannot just erase and deny on the basis of ... well, actually, no contrary evidence. Str1977 00:07, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Historicity is one of the best criticism of Christianity. Feel free to cite something that discredits the theory. But, even without it it is a criticism of Christianity. Few more quick notes, how do you figure removing several paragraphs is a "minor" edit? Also, if you want the Pet 3:7 line, at least make it flow better. Sure, men own their wives according to the Bible, but the Bible also says to treat them well. It really doesn't fit well shoved on the end like that. Tat 10:43, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
As for the Christianity and Historicity section thejesuspuzzle has a few posted critiques. Although, to date the only one that gets pointed out is that it's not a mainstream theory. Tat 11:39, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
There is a tremendous POV problem. I added a section called Christian responses to criticisms and put a stub to the section. I suggest material be added ASAP. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.205.191.56 ( talk • contribs) 19:00, 25 September 2005 (UTC).
This section, including the possibility of deleting it, is also being discussed below at #Post-Giovanni33 Copyedit. Further comments should probably go there. Aaron McDaid ( talk - contribs) 18:10, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Any objections to a major overhaul of this article? KHM03 00:10, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
HERE is a new page to rewrite this one, which we can hopefully improve. Everyone is welcome to participate. KHM03 10:48, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
Any objections to redirecting this mess to the "criticisms" section of the Christianity article? Just wondering. KHM03 20:32, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
"that there seem to be two different versions of the creation story in the Book of Genesis. In the first Genesis 1, Adam and Eve are created out of clay or dust. In Genesis 2, Adam is created, gets lonely and God makes Eve out of Adam's rib. Even if one were to say that the second story is just to clarify the first, it doesn't explain the dual creation of Eve, in the opinion of some."
The author of this argument seems only to be refering to: Quote: Genesis 1:26-28:
26 "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
What the author wrote himself is quite inconsistent at this point because God was refering to the fact:
1. that "he made both male and female", not necessarily refering to the time that it was written
2. Verse 27 explicitly states: "in the image of God, he created him" (refering to Adam)" at that time. (the Bible doesn't "explicitly state" "in the image of God, he created them, refering at that point to Adam + Eve)
3. Location: Adam and Eve were created in the Garden of Eden, back then if you know about "Pangea" was quite bigger then the Garden of Eden itself so at this point, the Bible could be refering to everything else out of the Garden of Eden. (writer's note: I don't think "God" would be stupid to just create Adam + Eve in the Garden of Eden)
Here's a verse from the aftermath of the killing of Abel: Genesis 4:15-24 says:
"15 But the LORD said to him, "Not so ; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him.
16 So Cain went out from the LORD's presence and lived in the land of Nod, [f] east of Eden.
17 Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch. 18 To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad was the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael was the father of Methushael, and Methushael was the father of Lamech.
19 Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah.
20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock.
21 His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play the harp and flute.
22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of [g] bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain's sister was Naamah.
23 Lamech said to his wives,
"Adah and Zillah, listen to me; wives of Lamech, hear my words. I have killed [h] a man for wounding me, a young man for injuring me.
24 If Cain is avenged seven times,
then Lamech seventy-seven times."
4. As Genesis 4:16 says: Cain left God's presence and "lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden". This means there had to be other lands (with other people) either then the Garden of Eden.
In my opinion and in a somewhat Biblical-scientific context, the argument has way too little evidence to support it's allegation of inconsistency.
It should be deleted.
Cite: http://www.biblegateway.org/passage/?search=Genesis%201-5;&version=31;
-- N0N4am0r 01:28, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
- I should add:
Reasons for more people either then Adam and Eve:
-- N0N4am0r 01:47, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
"the story logic of Christianity itself is inconsistent. Many such critiques focus on the idea of a blood sacrific of God to God. "For God so loved the world that he sacrificed himself to himself to appease himself so if you believe this story, He will not be forced to torture you forever."
umm.... you know that John 3:16 has billions (exageration) of translations I can quote different versions and aren't "illogical".
John 3:16 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society NIV at IBS International Bible Society NIV at Zondervan Zondervan
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
and
John 3:16 (King James Version) King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain A Public Domain Bible KJV at Zondervan Zondervan
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
If critics can't understand this, what would this world become? This is what the verse is saying (if you don't understand):
God created this world and loved it so much, but then Adam and Eve sinned (Genesis 3) thus the world could of been forsaken. God instead, choose to give his son (Jesus) (Matthew 27:32-54) up in return for the lost souls (lives) of sinners. Basically he gave us the gift of salvation (as the christians call it) for free, we just have to believe in him so we don't get sent to Hell (also how christians interprete it).
More clarification: God created a world for us to live in (Genesis 1:26-30) and to rule but our ancestors (Adam and Eve) sinned thus we were all doomed but God chose to save us. Simple as that.
-- N0N4am0r 01:41, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
We are all aware of how Christians traditionally interpret John 3:16. That quote isn't meant to be a translation; it's a satirical rewording of John 3:16 intended to clarify why many non-Christians find the claim in John 3:16 inconsistent. It has to do with the theological doctrine of the Trinity; the source page might help you understand. It is a legitimate criticism, but perhaps the reasons for the criticism could be expanded. (I might come back and do it at a better time.) -- The Famous Movie Director 05:17, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
vs.
There are several documented instances (see Rwandan Genocide) of actual direct refusal, not merely neglection. Discuss? Clinkophonist 22:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Uncle G 13:04, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
I think there is lots of overlap in some areas - why not create
and then make the relevant sections here just brief summaries? -- Clinkophonist 15:19, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
How does it look now? Clinkophonist 14:37, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Christianity, and Biblical adherance has been redirected to Christianity and Biblical adherence. Better title. I think I've improved POV problems in the article too, please see what you think. -- The Famous Movie Director 01:28, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
The Christianity, tolerance, and equality article's content is entirely critical of Christianity; it seems reasonable to merge it with the content here. Any objections? Wesley 16:56, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Please see this version of this article. The content of that version was specifically seperated and moved to Christianity, tolerance, and equality in order to enable it to be NPOVed better. The content is not a POV fork of the article, it is what this article said before I moved it and replaced it with a more NPOV summary. I.e. you are calling the older version of this article a POV fork of my later summary of it. Clinkophonist 20:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Your vote was to take the more neutral content here, merge in a POV fork, and de-POV that content. THERE IS NO POV FORK. That is actually essentially what THIS article said before I removed it. I propose therefore that your vote is irrelevant - you are voting about a situation that doesn't exist. m:Polls are evil.
The whole point of cutting it out of this article and putting it somewhere else was so that it would be under a wider vaguer title that would automatically cause it to be de-POVed simply by having to comply with the title and include discussion of the flip side of the coin - examples FOR tolerance, etc.
Placing the material in this article invites people to increase the criticism, placing it there invites people to provide the counter-issues, and allows it to cover a better more worthy topic - see Uncle G's comment some way above.
Some of the ethical decisions in the Bible, especially the Old Testament are considered morally questionable by many modern groups, and often do not match up to modern expectations. Some of the assertions critics claim that the Bible makes include the subjugation of women, condemnation of (perhaps only some forms of) homosexuality, and the order to commit the genocide of the Canaanites. Some critics and religious groups argue that these situations should be judged by the standards of the time, which they match much more closely. Additionally, some Christian denominations and theologians interpret these passages in other ways which do not support the subjugation of women, etc.
It has been proposed that Anti-Christianity be merged and redirected into this article. I have proposed on that article's talk page that, instead, a new article, Anti-Christian prejudice be created by merging Anti-Christianity and Christianophobia, possibly with additional material from this article. Comments and suggestions on that talk page would be appreciated. This article could then be restricted to rational and philosophical criticisms of Christianity, while negative prejudices (even those with a rational basis) could be placed in the new article. JHCC (talk) 16:48, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
UPDATE: Christianophobia has been moved to Anti-Christian prejudice and expanded. The article still needs work, and contributions would be welcome. JHCC (talk) 19:09, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Critics have argued that Biblical teachings stating that a women's role is one of "submission" is somewhat at odds with contemporary views of sexual equality. Dr Linda M. Woolf, Professor of Psychology, Webster University has stated that [3] "Unlike men, however, many women are allowed only an internal spiritual or religious experience and are often denied leadership roles or roles that foster any form of externalization of their faith."
Elizabeth Dodson Gray argued that Christianity "continue to place women in a subservient role that demands their silence and obedience" (National Catholic Reporter, April 1, 1994 v30 n22 p21).
When read in context, both of these critics are speaking specifically about the ordination of women. Does it never occur to them that less than 5% of men are ordained either, thus supposedly leaving 95% of men with "only an internal spiritual or religious experience" and similarly denied any role "that foster[s] any form or externalization of their faith"? The criticism is made and cited, so I'm not removing it outright, but it's weak to the point of being laughable. The broader essay by Woolf goes on to say that the real problems for women came when in America they were told to submit to beatings by drunken husbands and denied the right to vote. (I think she neglected to mention the right to own property.) Those are much bigger problems than just not being ordained, but those problems are not nearly as widespread as the ordination policy. I guess my question is whether this is worth keeping in the article. Wesley 17:54, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I feel this question needs to be asked because several commentors don't seem to comprehend that Criticism is not the same thing as an Attack, and can include praise. Clinkophonist 21:35, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Moved here from the article: Africa has the greatest incidence of AIDS per capita in the world, and the heavy proportion of fundamentalist Christians in Africa, all expounding the abstinance-not-condoms message, is widely viewed as contributing to this.
There are at least three uncited claims in this sentence, two of which I rather doubt. First, the incidence of AIDS per capita in Africa is so high in large part because Africa uses a much broader clinical definition of "AIDS" than is used in North America and many other parts of the world. Any sickness that might be connected with the immune system, or that has symptoms vaguely similar to those experienced by what the US considers AIDS patients, are labeled AIDS cases, at least partly in order to qualify for more international aid. Drug companies also stand to benefit from an overbroad definition.
Second, I strongly doubt that there even exist any statistics on the proportion of fundamentalist Christians in Africa; if there were any reputable stats, I rather doubt they would show that such Christians are in a 'heavy proportion.'
Thirdly, the "widely viewed as contributing to this" is completely without context. Widely viewed by whom? The wikipedian who wrote that paragraph and a dozen of his friends? Wesley 05:16, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Criticism of Christianity/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Article fails to reflect a global view of the subject, as per tag on the article page. Badbilltucker 01:54, 23 January 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 01:54, 23 January 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 20:21, 2 May 2016 (UTC)