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Hello all! Crimean Tatars are very interesting for a multitude of reasons, however I am wondering about the "indigenous" label for them. For example we don't call Irish people indigenous to Ireland, or Albanian people indigenous to Albania, or Hungarian people indigenous to Hungary; we label them as "native to". Following the History of Crimea, it outlines how Crimean Tatars as a group, formed in the 13th century during the advent of the Crimean Khanate. However before that, existed the Principality of Theodoro, and before that the Empire of Trebizond, and before that? The Byzantine Empire. These states all existed before the Crimean Khanate and controlled the Crimean peninsula. I believe there are restrictions on topics relating to Greek/Turkish history, and I am neither Greek nor Turkish, so I am not forming sides and taking one, but my concern is if groups existed before the Crimean Tatars in Crimea, and today still exists, as there are both Greek, and even Roman descendents in Crimea today as outlined in the article " Demographics of Crimea", can this label also not apply to other groups who arrived sooner and still exists, albeit in smaller minorities? Or do we have a special reason for labeling Crimean Tatars as indigenous? According to the Wikipage Indigenous peoples, people are considered indigenous if they are the first known settlers of a land or region, and according to what we know of Crimean Tatars and there origination in the 13th century, they would actually be considered less indigenous than the groups who came before them. Therefore we should change the labeling of "indigenous" to that of "native to" as a more accurate representation of the groups current status, if we have to use a label at all. Completely Random Guy ( talk) 23:27, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
Beshogur without discussion here on the talkpage removed mention of the Crimean Tatar related ethnic groups like Urum, Krymchak, Karaite and claimed they were "definitely not related" which is absolutely false. The Urum language of Crimea is often considered a dialect of Crimean Tatar, the languages of the Krymchaks, Karaites and Çingene are very close to Crimean Tatar if not already just dialects of Crimean Tatar itself. Lipka Tatars are more distantly related but Nogays are only related to a tiny portion of the Crimean Tatar people (the north) and have no connection with the majority of Crimean Tatar people and culture. Azerbaijani and Turks were included in the list because their languages are somewhat mutually intelligible. We need to stop basing the notion of "related" solely on the mere 10% of the North because they are so radically different from the rest of Crimean Tatars. I just can't emphasize enough how absolutely outrageous it was that Kazaks were at one point in the related ethnic groups box! It's insane. Crimean Tatars are genetically, culturally, and linguistically closer to many peoples, from the Urum to the Turks, and out analysis of them should not ignore the factually obvious relations of the vast majority of the Crimean Tatar people or try to bring down other. Urum are far more related to Crimean Tatars than Kazakhs will ever be. "The Urum variety of Crimean Tatar is spoken north of Azov Sea" https://books.google.com/books?id=huk9EAAAQBAJ. "a new ethnie was formed on the soil of the Crimea when the older Greek, Gothic, Armenian and Italian Christian populations converted to Islam and turned Tatar." https://books.google.com/books?id=oBlREAAAQBAJ&pg=PA27 Do not make more changes without discussion because I don't want to see anyone ever add Kazakh to that list again. QazyQazyQazaqstan ( talk) 13:01, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
Can you show one source that says that Crimean Tatars and Urum, or Crimean Tatars and Karaites, or Crimean Tatars and Krymchaks are not related?How am I supposed to show it? You must show they're closely related. Wikipedia isn't based on "trust me bro". You bring up random ethnic groups speaking similar languages with different religions being related, especially bringing up Gypsies of Crimea being related to Tatars is something I heard for the first time.
The idea that Crimean Tatars bear no relation or similarities with other peoples of Crimea is a very fringe far-right theory.lol what do you even mean? In the lead, it is mentioned that various ethnic group formed Crimean Tatar ethnogenesis. Now bringing up some of those as related ethnic groups is ridiculous. Crimean Italians/Greeks/Gypsy/or whatever aren't "related" in modern sense. Beshogur ( talk) 13:39, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
The Tatar economy appears to have had a foundation on capturing people during slave raids and selling them in the Ottoman Empire and further east. These slave raids have gone back to the 15th century - if not the 14th. The Tatars were regularly called by the Ottoman Sultans to join on campaigns during which they were not used for any disciplined warfare but used as raiders to create havoc and spread fear. They truly were vicious in their raiding.
Reports from the 16th century tell that the Tatars had more slaves than they had cattle.
One of the most famous slaves taken by the Crimean Tatars was Roxelana.
The Crimean Tatars and their Russian-Captive Slaves https://www6.econ.hit-u.ac.jp/areastd/mediterranean/mw/pdf/18/10.pdf
How Captives Were Taken: The Making of Tatar Slaving Raids in the Early Modern Period https://brill.com/display/book/9789004470897/BP000018.xml
The Ottoman Crimea in the Sixteenth Century https://www.jstor.org/stable/41035903
Slavery in the Black Sea Region https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-13260-5_9
ZidarZ ( talk) 21:39, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
"While the Crimean Tatars as a whole are generally portrayed as ‘wolves of the steppe’ it would seem that it was actually the nomdic Nogai Tatar element that continued to raid the neighboring lands and provide hardy cavalry for the Crimean Khan [a Nogay] during his increasingly limited forays into the heavily defended lands of the Russians and Poles."
[1]
So these are not Tatar raids. They are Nogay raids. The meaning of the word Tatar has changed so drastically over time that it is best to avoid using it if there is a better clearer word available. It's like using the word "Spanish" when talking about a specifically Morisco topic. -- QazyQazyQazaqstan ( talk) 15:10, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
Good evening. What's the matter with Crimean Tatars adding English as one of their ancestors? It's true that during the Byzantine era, there were some group of Anglo-Saxons who settled in Crimea. However, these people only established one city, and it was way before any Turkic invasion. He called this "properly cited." The source is from a news page, and it doesn't mention anything about the Tatar origin of English; it mentions how Crimean Tatars ransacked this city and slaughtered its inhabitants. I will simply delete the English from the summary 2A02:FF0:3316:CDA2:4013:EF94:A332:1E77 ( talk) 10:17, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Crimean Tatars article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1Auto-archiving period: 90 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on May 18, 2011, May 18, 2014, May 18, 2018, and May 18, 2020. |
Hello all! Crimean Tatars are very interesting for a multitude of reasons, however I am wondering about the "indigenous" label for them. For example we don't call Irish people indigenous to Ireland, or Albanian people indigenous to Albania, or Hungarian people indigenous to Hungary; we label them as "native to". Following the History of Crimea, it outlines how Crimean Tatars as a group, formed in the 13th century during the advent of the Crimean Khanate. However before that, existed the Principality of Theodoro, and before that the Empire of Trebizond, and before that? The Byzantine Empire. These states all existed before the Crimean Khanate and controlled the Crimean peninsula. I believe there are restrictions on topics relating to Greek/Turkish history, and I am neither Greek nor Turkish, so I am not forming sides and taking one, but my concern is if groups existed before the Crimean Tatars in Crimea, and today still exists, as there are both Greek, and even Roman descendents in Crimea today as outlined in the article " Demographics of Crimea", can this label also not apply to other groups who arrived sooner and still exists, albeit in smaller minorities? Or do we have a special reason for labeling Crimean Tatars as indigenous? According to the Wikipage Indigenous peoples, people are considered indigenous if they are the first known settlers of a land or region, and according to what we know of Crimean Tatars and there origination in the 13th century, they would actually be considered less indigenous than the groups who came before them. Therefore we should change the labeling of "indigenous" to that of "native to" as a more accurate representation of the groups current status, if we have to use a label at all. Completely Random Guy ( talk) 23:27, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
Beshogur without discussion here on the talkpage removed mention of the Crimean Tatar related ethnic groups like Urum, Krymchak, Karaite and claimed they were "definitely not related" which is absolutely false. The Urum language of Crimea is often considered a dialect of Crimean Tatar, the languages of the Krymchaks, Karaites and Çingene are very close to Crimean Tatar if not already just dialects of Crimean Tatar itself. Lipka Tatars are more distantly related but Nogays are only related to a tiny portion of the Crimean Tatar people (the north) and have no connection with the majority of Crimean Tatar people and culture. Azerbaijani and Turks were included in the list because their languages are somewhat mutually intelligible. We need to stop basing the notion of "related" solely on the mere 10% of the North because they are so radically different from the rest of Crimean Tatars. I just can't emphasize enough how absolutely outrageous it was that Kazaks were at one point in the related ethnic groups box! It's insane. Crimean Tatars are genetically, culturally, and linguistically closer to many peoples, from the Urum to the Turks, and out analysis of them should not ignore the factually obvious relations of the vast majority of the Crimean Tatar people or try to bring down other. Urum are far more related to Crimean Tatars than Kazakhs will ever be. "The Urum variety of Crimean Tatar is spoken north of Azov Sea" https://books.google.com/books?id=huk9EAAAQBAJ. "a new ethnie was formed on the soil of the Crimea when the older Greek, Gothic, Armenian and Italian Christian populations converted to Islam and turned Tatar." https://books.google.com/books?id=oBlREAAAQBAJ&pg=PA27 Do not make more changes without discussion because I don't want to see anyone ever add Kazakh to that list again. QazyQazyQazaqstan ( talk) 13:01, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
Can you show one source that says that Crimean Tatars and Urum, or Crimean Tatars and Karaites, or Crimean Tatars and Krymchaks are not related?How am I supposed to show it? You must show they're closely related. Wikipedia isn't based on "trust me bro". You bring up random ethnic groups speaking similar languages with different religions being related, especially bringing up Gypsies of Crimea being related to Tatars is something I heard for the first time.
The idea that Crimean Tatars bear no relation or similarities with other peoples of Crimea is a very fringe far-right theory.lol what do you even mean? In the lead, it is mentioned that various ethnic group formed Crimean Tatar ethnogenesis. Now bringing up some of those as related ethnic groups is ridiculous. Crimean Italians/Greeks/Gypsy/or whatever aren't "related" in modern sense. Beshogur ( talk) 13:39, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
The Tatar economy appears to have had a foundation on capturing people during slave raids and selling them in the Ottoman Empire and further east. These slave raids have gone back to the 15th century - if not the 14th. The Tatars were regularly called by the Ottoman Sultans to join on campaigns during which they were not used for any disciplined warfare but used as raiders to create havoc and spread fear. They truly were vicious in their raiding.
Reports from the 16th century tell that the Tatars had more slaves than they had cattle.
One of the most famous slaves taken by the Crimean Tatars was Roxelana.
The Crimean Tatars and their Russian-Captive Slaves https://www6.econ.hit-u.ac.jp/areastd/mediterranean/mw/pdf/18/10.pdf
How Captives Were Taken: The Making of Tatar Slaving Raids in the Early Modern Period https://brill.com/display/book/9789004470897/BP000018.xml
The Ottoman Crimea in the Sixteenth Century https://www.jstor.org/stable/41035903
Slavery in the Black Sea Region https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-13260-5_9
ZidarZ ( talk) 21:39, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
"While the Crimean Tatars as a whole are generally portrayed as ‘wolves of the steppe’ it would seem that it was actually the nomdic Nogai Tatar element that continued to raid the neighboring lands and provide hardy cavalry for the Crimean Khan [a Nogay] during his increasingly limited forays into the heavily defended lands of the Russians and Poles."
[1]
So these are not Tatar raids. They are Nogay raids. The meaning of the word Tatar has changed so drastically over time that it is best to avoid using it if there is a better clearer word available. It's like using the word "Spanish" when talking about a specifically Morisco topic. -- QazyQazyQazaqstan ( talk) 15:10, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
Good evening. What's the matter with Crimean Tatars adding English as one of their ancestors? It's true that during the Byzantine era, there were some group of Anglo-Saxons who settled in Crimea. However, these people only established one city, and it was way before any Turkic invasion. He called this "properly cited." The source is from a news page, and it doesn't mention anything about the Tatar origin of English; it mentions how Crimean Tatars ransacked this city and slaughtered its inhabitants. I will simply delete the English from the summary 2A02:FF0:3316:CDA2:4013:EF94:A332:1E77 ( talk) 10:17, 27 March 2024 (UTC)