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Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | → | Archive 25 |
I merged the archives, I think material discussed loses relevancy when broken. I simply cut pasted material together. Page will load faster than user can read even on a 56k machine. This page was 200+kb large. Excesive is an under statement. Archived all entries till april. -- Cat chi? 10:55, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I hope no one had an Heart Attack. Thanks. -- Cat chi? 11:03, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There seem to be a lot of discussions that have been adequately adressed. The topic on Salva could conceivably be moved there in a short while aswell, though I wouldn't mind it if this topic grew into a single archive that we could like to from the article on the creation-evolution controversy as an example of a typical discussion on the subject.
I moved Removal of two sections to creation-evolution controversy to the archive aswell, as a #New Criticism section has been created which continues the discussion. - Ec5618 18:13, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
I have now moved the Salva/Aaaagh monologues to this archive aswell. I'm trying to keep this page from cluttering to a point where new editors are scared off because of the mess. -- Ec5618
Have moved
to /Archive 12 -- Ec5618 23:45, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
Archived Truthteller ranting, as suggested by JoeD ( /Ranting) -- Ec5618 23:45, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
I see all of the pro-evolution liberal/socialist gore nuts are still getting to say anything they want without any fear of ever having their POV squashed.
Wiki is pathetic.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.145.184.6 ( talk • contribs) 19:01, 5 April 2007
If you're complaining, I suggest you go to Conservapedia, where they all take a conservative stance. I would join them, but I have "miles to go before I sleep." bibliomaniac 1 5 20:31, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
'Many of those who hold strict creationist views reject any scientific explanations for natural phenomena that contradict their interpretation of scripture as to how the same phenomena occurred.' This is elementary, and I don't see why it needs to be in the article. Similarly, 'many of those who wear green are not wearing red,' but this is so obvious that nobody appends it to any articles. WolfieInu 10:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Like I said, we could go on refining forever. Maybe we should implement your (SheffieldSteel's) suggestion and leave it at that, perhaps merely replacing the second occurrence of "scientific" with "mainstream" to make it sound less awkward. And if I may go off on a tangent, I wouldn't say that 'creationists are antagonistic towards [all of] science', since by definition creationism can only contradict current origins science, and not neutral territory such as chemistry, quantum mechanics, etc. WolfieInu 18:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
<let's just decrease the indent a bit here> It's like I said, as soon as a debate gets going, the editing of the sentence is not going to get done. That's a shame, I kind of liked SheffieldSteel's suggestion. Concerning the scientific method.
I agree with Orangemarlin, the scientific method cannot be directly applied to anything. That was my point. What the scientific method assumes is that there are certain laws of the universe that can be applied anywhere, at any time. In other words, no Flying Spaghetti Monsters are changing the results before our very eyes. Creationists agree with and subscribe to the entire scientific method, without reservation. As such, applied science cannot be affected by creationism, or evolutionism either for that matter.
The difference lies in our assumptions about how the universe, to which this scientific method can be applied, came about. This cannot be determined by just looking at the evidence, since there is a nearly infinite amount of factors, far too much for the human brain to process and come up with an answer (whether or not this is 42 remains to be seen). The only way a model can be constructed is to assume certain things about the universe beforehand (this is commonly known as a bias). The predictions of the theory can then be tested against hard facts. If it doesn't measure up, out it goes. At this point in time, both the creationists and evolutionists have a lot going for them and, IMHO, a set of problems each. The conflict creationists have is not with science (as in the scientific method) but the bias it is currently being applied to (evolution is the starting assumption). That's why it is possible for genuine scientists to be creationists. They have the same education and use the same method, but have a different bias.
'[T]he basis of all Biology is evolution' - how, exactly? Does it change the metabolism of sugar, the working of enzymes, the 'unzipping' of DNA, Natural Selection, or anything else that is relevant to Biology? The creation/evolution issue is only making headlines because of the religious component. It hardly affects real-world biology at all.
As for JoshuaZ's objection, I stand corrected. I am referring specifically to YEC, not 'creationism' in the most general sense. This provides an additional reason to fix the sentence and to make things less ambiguous. WolfieInu 07:58, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Creationism does not necessarily mean that you have to reject the scientific method, not even YEC. There's nothing wrong with the hypothesis that the world is only 6000 years old, but was created to look billions of years old, except that it is untestable. It accepts that science shows that the world is billions of years old. Belief in a God is equally untestable, equally unscientific, but doesn't require you to reject the scientific method. On the other hand, large swaths of the population reject the scientific method...not just creationists, but also left wing intellectuals. Obviously using the Bible to argue against science is a rejection of the scientific method. "Creation science" as it currently exists is a rejection of the scientific method, because it does not use the scientific method to test its "hypotheses", it proposes hypotheses to conform the Bible. Regardless of what Wolfie says, bumper stickers which say things like "The Bible said it, I believe it, that settles it" do not represent a straw man - if you think otherwise, come down to the Bible Belt. The sentence is a fair representation of the situation. Guettarda 13:09, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
“ | When scientific research produces conclusions which contradict the creationist interpretation of scripture, the strict creationist approach is to reject that research's conclusions, its underlying scientific theories, or its methodology. The most notable cases are the impact of evolution on the development of living organisms, the idea of common descent, the geologic history of the Earth, the formation of the solar system, and the origin of the universe. | ” |
(un-dent) Made the change; off to look for references SheffieldSteel 17:52, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
What the hell is this? " Creationism is separate from and should not be confused with the Christian tradition of "Creation Spirituality," which draws upon the theology of Matthew Fox. " Aside from not being factual (the Fox part) was there really a reason to make any distinction? •Jim62sch• 22:10, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't believe this box belongs as a Wikipedia's-point-of-view box, although it can be asserted as an editor's POV. Empiricism represents one point of view among others, such as idealism, phenomenalism, etc. A claim that creationism is a scientific truth can be refuted by scientists, but a preference for faith over empirical methods as the source of ones worldview cannot be refuted by scientists. There is a distinction between claims to being science and claims to truth. The idea that the only possible route to truth involves the scientific method is indeed a POV. Proofs depend on the assumptions one is willing to accept. Best, -- Shirahadasha 17:18, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
What's this? It has just been added to the article as a whole new section - which reads like a lot of original research without much in the way of verifiable sources. Does it really exist? If so, shouldn't it have its own wikipedia article at Recolonisation theory, and shouldn't the section here primarily point to that article? I'm not going to write such an article, because I've not heard of "recolonisation theory" before I came across it here - and a google search reveals... well, not a lot, in fact! Anyone know anything about it? If it's notable enough for mention here, it's notable enough for its own article. Snalwibma 09:12, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
It sounds a little like the catastrophicism that was popular int he Victorian period: You know, each geological age as a seprate creation? But really badly explained. Adam Cuerden talk 15:02, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Recolonisation theory is the basis on which most UK geologists who include creation in their world-view interpret the geological and palaeontological record. In the UK, therefore, most do not interpret the 'fossil record as a record of the destruction of the global flood recorded in Genesis'. It has, moreover, considerably more adherents than the 'omphalos hypothesis' that is deemed to warrant a mention in the article. Comments such as 'nonsense' and 'badly explained' reinforce what we all know, that emotion so often takes the place of reason in this area, and that at least some of the content of the creationism article - and omitted potential content - is determined by participants who are not as well acquainted with the subject as they should be.
Catastrophism was more common in the pre-Victorian period than in the Victorian: by the 1830s the intellectual world was ripe for Lyellian uniformitarianism. Recolonisation theory does not in fact resemble Victorian catastrophism and expressly rejects the idea of a 'seprate creation' in each geological age (see Recolonisation in a nutshell). Regardless of its strengths and weaknesses, it is a radically new theory. Fastnet 19:41, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
We should only include it in Wikipedia if we can find any notable content on it. Gould's article is simply an analysis of what he considered an old, dead theory that was nonetheless an interesting attempt by a woman scientist-theologian to combine science and religion on the cusp of Darwin's revolution. Can you show any evidence that it's notable or widely-held today? Adam Cuerden talk 20:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
There's no nice way to say this: This section is appalling. It consists of ridiculously short, context free subsections, one of which (Islamic creationism) is a single sentence that merely says it exists. Flying Spaghetti monsterism opens the section, this arguably demeans the other religions, as the description of it is in exactly the same neutral language as the Hinduism summary following, no attempt is made to make it clear that most of these creationist movements are tiny. Adam Cuerden talk 19:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I and most others have no problem with those of creationist beliefs UNTIL they verge over into intolerance and irrationality imposed on others. It is fine to believe in a literal interpretation of the bible AS LONG as you do not use it to abuse others or to insist that others reject their beliefs or rational evidence. Other than that, feel free to believe whatever you like! After all, there is no law against delusions, insanity, irrationality, etc.-- Filll 02:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Re: Homestarmy - I called creationists nutters. It's a personal opinion I would never attempt to put on the page. Further discussion is well off topic and I'm going to be dropping it.
My apologies, I'm not sure I understand Addhoc's comment. Is it because the Hindu equivalent uses a different term than 'Creationism'? The reaons it's suggested is because conservative Christian creationism is the dominant form, and other forms are less visible, but they do exist. Is there a way to acknowledge the dominance of CCC within the public arena? Should we bother? Is there a comparable set of wikipages that has dealt with a similar topic successfully and even-handedly? Right now I see a very strong possibility of an excessive emphasis on the US version of creationism, which is something I'd like to avoid. WLU 20:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Why is this last paragraph in here? It should be on the discussion page. Check out the evolution page; it doesn't tout the "opposition" and all their opinions and what they do with evidences; nor does it discuss the fraudulent cases associated with evolution. Another intellectually honest article by wikipedia. ;o(
...as I said during a previous discussion, perhaps we should provide a disambiguation page for this article? -- WolfieInu 15:25, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The disambiguation note at the top of the article says: ""Creationism" can also refer to origin beliefs in general, or to an alternative of traducianism."
I would like to question this particular formulation. Do such things as the ancient Greek myths about creation of the universe qualify as 'creationism'? One problem is that Creation myths on Wikipedia have been diverted to Origin beliefs, presumably on the basis that 'myths' is a pejorative term. This, and the tone of the first paragraph, seem to imply that any kind of creation myth belongs to 'creationism'.
Can anyone come up with citations (other than this article) to prove that 'creationism' can equally be understood refer to Roman, Greek, Japanese, etc. myths and legends, even where the belief factor is essentially dead?
Bathrobe 07:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
<undent>Let clarify things. I have no problem with anyone having their own personal beliefs. I have no problem with someone personally believing the literal account in Genesis or the Vedas or the Koran or any other religious text. I have a problem when in the secular public sphere, as in public school classrooms, or a secular encyclopedia like Wikipedia, people want to insist that others submit to them and their own personal religious beliefs. These are usually not based on science or evidence, but just a particular interpretation of a particular religious text. I am sorry, but I believe that this starts to verge on intolerance, and I must insist that we avoid it.-- Filll 13:18, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Apologies if this has already been discussed, but two points in the Overview bothered me a bit.
I don't know about point 1, but I think the proposed edit to point 2 is a good idea. I've gone and edited it, any objections? -- WolfieInu 09:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Most Christian churches in the US have no objection to evolution and do not subscribe to creationism:
United Methodist Church, National Baptist Convention, USA, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Presbyterian Church (USA), National Baptist Convention of America, African Methodist Episcopal Church, the Roman Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, and others. [1]
The members of these churches constitute over 78% of the Christians in the US. In the past, this number has been as high as 90%.
The churches that reject evolution in the US constitute a tiny minority. These include churches like Assemblies of God, [2] the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, [3] the Free Methodist Church, the Jehovah's Witnesses, Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, [4] Pentecostal Churches, Seventh-day Adventist Churches, [5] Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, Christian Reformed Church, and the Pentecostal Oneness churches. [6]
As for statements that God created the cosmos, these are NOT part of evolution.
Also, it is very common for fundamentalists and creationists to just resort to claiming that anyone that disagrees with them is not Christian.-- Filll 14:32, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Of course there are many types of creationist (Young Earth, Old Earth, Adamite, etc etc). But creationists in general usually reject the scientific method, and introduce the supernatural as an explanation for natural events. Most creationists reject some or all aspects of the Modern Synthesis or NeoDarwinian Evolutionary theory. Many Christian creationists accept biblical literalism or biblical inerrancy, at least for some aspects of the biblical text. Islamic creationists do the same for the koran. Hindu creationists or their counterparts in Hinduism do the same for some of the vedic texts. Jewish creationists do the same for the Torah. If an individual accepts the dominant scientific explanations of the universe and life and its origins, then even if they believe in God or a Creator, then they would not be referred to as a creationist in general. In fact, many fundamentalists might dismiss them and call them atheists, or Satanists, or threaten them and curse them, in a most "unChristian" fashion, but one that is quite typical in my experience, and those of others. Often, fundamentalists will accept people who believe in theistic evolution when it suits their uses to inflate certain statistics or to make a case, but then reject them in other circumstances. Just typical and annoying and it does not reflect well on them.-- Filll 18:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
If one includes pantheist and panentheistic definitions of God, then most atheists are on the creationist team too, including Richard Dawkins probably. So if one makes the definition broad enough, one can get every single human to be defined as a creationist. This is not particularly helpful, however. I went to http://www.onelook.com and looked up both creationist and creationism and I see there are about 50+ definitions or so. Some of these definitions are very similar, so there are maybe a good 10 definitions which are distinguishable. Perhaps a separate article on Definitions of creationism is called for to explore this issue, and different types of creationist and creationism. -- Filll 20:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Well it depends on how one defines a deity and supernatural.-- Filll 21:02, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm I think you have pointed out that we have some definition problems in our articles.-- Filll 21:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Theistic evolution maybe should not be part of creationism, although it is on the "creationism spectrum." And naturalistic views of the Creator such as pantheism which is verging on atheism probably should not be part of creationism either, but by some definitions pantheists and other atheists would be creationists as well. Another source of confusion arises because some meanings of creationism define only where the soul comes from, so that instead of coming from the parents, the soul is created by God. So Roman Catholicism is creationist by that definition of creationism, and maybe by some others as well, but not by the most common definitions. I could go on and on through each definition in any of 30 or so dictionaries, and we could define creationism to include no more than 1 or 2% of the US population, all the way up to 95% or more of the US population. Do we need to explore this further? --
Filll 21:47, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Creationists view evolution as a source of society's ills, and the writings of Morris and Clark are typical expressions of that view.... Creationists have adopted the view of Fundamentalists generally that there are only two positions with respect to the origins of the earth and life: belief in the inerrancy of the Genesis story of creation and of a worldwide flood as fact, or a belief in what they call evolution.... The creationist organizations consider the introduction of creation science into the public schools part of their ministry. [7]
I am not claiming talkorigins is a great reference on this issue. I am alsoo not claiming that the National Center for Science Education necessarily should have the final say in how we define creationism. But Homestarmy has clearly highlighted a difficulty we have ignored in the multiple conflicting and overlapping definitions of "creationism". Just as evolution and evolutionism have had a number of meanings over the years, so it appears that creationism has had and still retains a plethora of contradictory meanings. And now, here we are writing a semi-authorative text, and we have some confusion here. I personally would like to define creationism to include:
This is just a starter, but clearly enables one to draw a clear distinction between atheists and creationists, or between creationists and the vast majority of scientists, or between creation scientists and scientists, or between Catholic doctrine and Pentecostal doctrine, for example.-- Filll 22:41, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
<undent>Well we could discuss them all, but we do not really have the space for it in this article. That is why I suggest an article on Definitions of creationism..-- Filll 01:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
My understanding is that Definitions of evolution was a very inadequate article. The present evolutionism article basically describes in detail a variety of definitions of the term.-- Filll 15:29, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, I don't want to violate WP:3RR, so I'll just post here. By the morning, User:Homestarmy will either have to violate 3RR or I'm wrong. Anyways, the Kitzmiller decision clearly stated that schools can't teach ID. Once a court decides, it becomes de facto, unless another court overturns it, which will not happen. But I'm bored with these reversions. I expect that the sentence will be gone by the time I wake up Saturday morning. Orangemarlin 07:33, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
A minor point (refering to an edit summary) when something is "de facto law" we do not say "de facto" we say "de jure." Slrubenstein | Talk 15:05, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
<RI>Conclusion. For anyone who reads this discussion, note that it was done in a WP:CIVIL manner, between highly opinionated people, and we arrived at somewhat of a consensus. Jim62sch, you know I love you, but READ THE RULING wasn't quite fair. Homestarmy made a valid point, which is the ruling really only is binding in the Middle District of Pennsylvania, but carries substantial weight as precedent elsewhere. Personally, I don't think any school district would be stupid enough to spend that kind of money to fight it, so it becomes, de facto, the law of the land. By the way, I made a change to the section so that it reflected what I believed is how it works, but Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor, not a Constitutional Lawyer. (I have been waiting years to actually say that to someone named Jim.) LOL. Orangemarlin 16:13, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
The OED has nothing on this term, and we cannot use a Wiki to source a Wiki as Wikis do not meet WP:RS
Also, this, from Str1977 is nonsense: "(created article for those denying the term)" [1]. •Jim62sch• 10:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
... I'm not sure this article has one. While I don't agree with Creationism one iota, surely NPoV requires that both eventualities be accepted as equally likely, at least in this article? In reality, the view expressed is decidedly Evolutonist (especially in the intro), and so for the sake of article quality I'd argue that this be remedied. Disclaimer - I am definitely an evolutionist, I just think that this isn't NPoV. The fact that it's my PoV expressed is neither here nor there. -- poorsod talk 11:50, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
"Oh and “...I don't agree with creationism, but..', sounds a lot like, '...well I'm not racist, but...”.
What do you mean by a comparison of the "I'm not racist, but..." analogy to the users comments? The user wished to assert their concerns over POV as a Evolutionist while having a regard for the views of Creationists in the belief that this might make his own standpoint seem less weighted, which is frankly more than a lot of ‘editors’ seem to be doing with pages like this. The “I'm not racist, but...” phrase is typically invoked when the person making the statement follows it up with an invariably racist comment, not at all similar to what poorsod was attempting to do. So no, it’s not comparable with his comments at all. I really think you should apologise to be quite honest. I also am not a creationist… but I agree more with ‘Poorsod’ than I would you, I’m convinced there is still a fair amount of subtle weaseling from both parties at the end of certain paragraphs that I suspect would obviously not be tolerated if they were identified as coming from a particularly creationist standpoint. Isn’t it sloppy to have un-sourced statements at the end of the overview for instance as well as a statement with either critical or positive standpoints at the end of sections? Even if these statements were sourced I don’t think weighted comment should be placed at the end of sections, it’s too leading either way. Rather like childishly having the final words in a playground argument. 195.92.168.165 04:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Yeah you are right. I am probably diseased and/or addicted. I notice I rank at about position 1000 among all editors, measured by edit count, including editors that have been here quite a bit longer. However, my sense of "smell" for creationists (my fundie-dar, or creationist-dar, as it were) was already well developed before I came to WP, since I have been involved in these debates for longer than you have been alive Homestarmy, and possibly longer than your parents have been alive. What is hilarious, particularly if you look at the history of creationism, is that although science has changed considerably over the last 100 or 150 years, creationists use almost the identical arguments that were used by creationists decades and decades ago, and a lot of the same terminology. Interesting, huh? -- Filll 19:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
It's great that you think you can ‘smell’ creationists Filll, it means you probably shovel as much as you 'edit' according to your judgment. It's wonderful to know such balanced editors are so highly regarded on Wikipedia. I couldn’t give a toss about posturing creationists nuts, what bothers me more are attempts by self important non-professional wiki editors with equally outrageous and manipulative intentions, you do curious internet browsers no service whatsoever. Reading pages like this simply offends me when I feel attempts at manipulation according to a clearly biased agenda. I am glad your wiki ranking gives you comfort because it scares the hell out of me. You’re just one of the reasons I refuse to join this site because Wikipedia is clearly a doomed project under the ushering of individuals such as yourself. Perhaps you should scrutinize you own motives just as equally as those Creationists you clearly have such bias against. Have a nice ‘break’. 195.92.168.165 16:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Imho this article does belong into the cat pseudoscience because it lists all the pseudoscience of creationists (like 4.1 Young Earth creationism 4.1.1 Modern geocentrism 4.1.2 Omphalos hypothesis 4.1.3 Creation science 4.2 Old Earth creationism 4.2.1 Gap creationism 4.2.2 Day-age creationism 4.2.3 Progressive creationism 4.3 Theistic evolution 4.4 Neo-Creationism 4.4.1 Intelligent design ) greetings. -- hroest 00:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
<RI>Homestarmy, yeah I agree we had a consensus. But when I reread the article, I thought it had changed, which it had. I've deleted a lot of the pseudoscience stuff, and I happen to agree wholeheartedly with you. Now when are you going to report that AP Chemistry score? Orangemarlin 17:35, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
<unindent> OM, this article really should start by showing how there are various ideas of what "creationism" means, including the soul version (Aretha Franklin?) and the general term, but with an emphasis on the usage popularized in the Fundamentalist-Modernist Controversy of the 1920s (in "an upsurge of fundamentalist religious fervor" to cite Edwards) as meaning opposition to evolution as part of the fundies' argument against higher criticism and liberal Christianity – at heart this is a theological dispute rather than religion vs. science as it's often misrepresented... dave souza, talk 23:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
There is a conflict thesis which is accepted by many. The curent atheist thinkers like Richard Dawkins are fairly adamant that science directly contradicts religion. Wikipedia articles must acknowledge this perspective. -- Creationism is pseudoscience 18:54, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Since the scientific critique section was so short, I included a Dawkins quote to expand the section a bit. -- Fradulent Ideas 23:34, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Can someone explain to me why this was removed from the article? -- Fradulent Ideas 12:36, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
(ri) "..mind shrinking nonsense.." is amusing, but it isn't really a scientific critique. In any case I think the idea is to largly confine this article to the theology of creationism, and leave the science and pseudoscience, to the appropriate sub-articles. ornis 12:47, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
The Merriam-Webster's dictionary [2] does not define creationism as we do. The article uses, supposedly, a definition provided by Hayward. I am not at liberty to get Hayward's book at this time so can someone tell me why Hayward's definition is more verifiable than the typical definition provided by Merriam-Webster? -- Fradulent Ideas 12:42, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I think the section about how the term is most often used is correct, but should there be a citation for it? Maybe a survey or a citation search? -- Fradulent Ideas 12:47, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
<undent> Am giving this consideration, as in my opinion the broad definition comes first, and includes the multiple more-or-less literal/allegorical interpretations of the Biblical account that have been around since the first century, then in the 1920s the term begins to be primarily associated with Fundamentalists who accept old earth creation, and even animal evolution, but reject the moral implications of human evolution and successfully demand that no evolution be taught in US schools. Around this time purely literal Flood geology originates, but is confined to 7th day adventists, then that's revived in 1961 and around 1965 "scientific creationism" becomes the widely recognised idea of what it means, hence the American Heritage Dictionary's definition. The encarta article Creationism, Contributed By: Ronald L. Numbers and William Coleman gives a very useful overview. ... dave souza, talk 16:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
An editor undid my edits: [3] with the summary: "undid earlier change to more neutral and coherent version." I think there is a number of problems with the current version:
In sum, I think that my version is actually more coherent than the current version.
As for neutrality, I do not see any evidence that my version is somehow lacking over the current version. I encourage the editor who made this undo to explain precisely what they meant in this section of the talk page.
-- Fradulent Ideas 13:39, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that ornis has really understood my critique and in fact has made points in favor of my version:
In short, I think that the reasons given for the undo and the subsequent defense made is very poor. I think that we need to writing-workshop this section because right now it says almost nothing encyclopedic.
-- Fradulent Ideas 15:36, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
<undent, reply to Fradulent Ideas> Well, there are many factions of anti-creationism, but I'm sure you slot in there somewhere... my point being that your edit is (for the most part) factually correct, but POV. Just slightly, but detectably so. It's good work, and nobody can avoid being influenced by their POV. I just picked it up because my POV is diametrically opposed to yours ;) -- WolfieInu 08:14, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
There has been little to no response to my proposals on this section. I'm going to reinstate the edits trying to take into consideration the criticisms listed here. -- Fradulent Ideas 14:30, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Other than being a bit long, what is substandard about it? -- Fradulent Ideas 16:23, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I split the sentences up into two shorter sentences if that helps. I also think it is disingenuous and mean for you to revert without discussing which you have done twice by my count. You seem to think that it's okay for you to revert without discussion while criticizing me for making edits without discussion. That seems very hypocritical. Isn't there a Wikipedia policy against hypocrisy and being mean? -- Fradulent Ideas 16:31, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
<edit conflict> Here it is for discussion:
After legal judgements that teaching this in public schools contravened constitutional separation of Church and State, it was stripped of biblical references and called creation science. When the court case Edwards versus Aguillard ruled that creation science similarly contravened the constitution, all references to "creation" in a draft school textbook were changed to refer to intelligent design, which was subsequently claimed to be a new scientific theory. The Kitzmiller v. Dover ruling concluded that intelligent design is not science, and contravenes the constitutional restriction on teaching religion in public school science classes.
If an earlier version is preferred or improvements can be made, that will be welcome. .. dave souza, talk 17:58, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for listening, Dave. I made a few new tweaks to add McLean v. Arkansas. I'm curious, though, maybe this historical explanation is best left for the political controversy section? It may be too specific according to WP:LEAD. -- Fradulent Ideas 18:01, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
While it is true that most mainstream churches allow for the timeframes given by science, most do not go as far as to make it a dogmatic acceptance. Many mainstream churches are somewhat accomodating of those people who would believe in a literal interpretation when it gets right down to it. For example, while the Catholic Church has made strong statements in support of science, they also have not said it is an error to support Ussher's chronology and therefore there are plenty of Catholic creationists in the right-wing of the church fighting against the timeframes as other creationists do. Mainstream churches tend not to attack creationism directly: they instead tend to attack the ideas that only literal interpretations can be correct.
The claim was insinuated in the article that creationists timeframes are directly opposed to the theology of mainstream churches. I think that science is accepted by mainstream churches in a more nuanced apologetic fashion than that.
-- Fradulent Ideas 13:54, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
<undent>Exactly as I said before. According to that definition of creationism, *I* am a creationist and so is Orangemarlin and about 90% of the population of the USA and 50% of all scientists in the US. However, that is not a useful definition and not the one that is most commonly used. By that definition, probably half or more of the people working at the National Center for Science Education are creationists. So it is a nonsense definition.-- Filll 18:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
<undent, edit conflict> Filll, please stop your ranting and raving. I know creationism upsets you. Well, evolutionism upsets me. Yet I do not rant and rave, even though evolutionism gets forced down my throat (in an intolerant manner, I might add) perpetually, both in academic and everyday situations (even in advertising, for goodness' sake!). Creationists (e.g. Hovind) can rant and rave, and evolutionists (e.g. Dawkins) can rant and rave. That doesn't address the truth or falsehood of their positions. We can't disprove an idea by (rightly!) highlighting the attitudes of its extremist proponents. PS. 30,000 different types of (by implication, mutually incompatible) Christian? Reference? -- WolfieInu 19:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Science allows for god in the gaps creationism, which is the variety that Filll, Orangemarlin, 90% of the population, and 50% of all scientists in the US including Ken Miller are. However, I don't think that most people would consider creationism to allow for god in the gaps. -- Fradulent Ideas 19:09, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
<undent> Wait, hang on. Would this "re-direction" of the article entail deleting any material? For slightly different reasons, I raised (or concurred with) a similar view a while back: the article covers too much divergent material. Most people have American "fundamentalist" Creationism in mind when they say "creationism", so all this other material could confuse/frustrate them. Why not a disambig page? Poor martytred me, all that effort and nobody even took the trouble to comment. (sniff) -- WolfieInu 23:44, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
<ri> Quite right, Leinad, and one particularly relevant case is Charles Darwin who is commonly misrepresented as some kind of dogmatic atheist plotting from the outset to undermine Christianity, when as Moore points out he was qualified as a clergyman and was following the example of his clergyman friends in becoming a naturalist then working within the ideas of natural theology – thus The Origin of Species is natural theology, though by then his faith had waned to deism, later becoming a troubled agnosticism. Also, while it was opposed by Church of England conservative evangelicals, it was welcomed by liberals in that church and by some other denominations... dave souza, talk 16:06, 4 July 2007 (UTC) tweak - Moore notes Darwin still believed in God at time of writing the Origin .. dave souza, talk 16:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Could we remove or archive the "References" section? It's no logner relevant. -- WolfieInu 15:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
How about a separate article, linked to this one, on the different definitions of the word "creationism" and its history? I found about 20 different definitions from different encyclopediae and dictionaries that we can use to start with.-- Filll 02:13, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
this would allow each party their own platform and theoretically remove the need for arguments. i admit that while science is one cohesive view, the religious views have probably split into 100s of different views. but hey, wiki's got 2million articles and growing. let them bikker among themselves. Wikiskimmer 05:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
You might try origin belief and creation within belief systems. -- FOo 08:20, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
where are the wikis from RELIGIOUS, FUNDAMENTALIST POV?
You might want to try Conservapedia - that's a wiki encyclopaedia written from a fundamentalist POV. Guettarda 13:58, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Well if you want more wikis on this general topic:
The opening paragraph was a guddle anyway, and in my opinion it should cover all the meanings of creationism while making it clear that in terms of modern arguments it basically means anti-evolution. So, I've boldly changed it to the following:
Creationism is the belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe were created in their entirety by a deity or deities (typically God), whose existence is presupposed.[1] The term can be used to refer to specific doctrines within this broad range of beliefs, for example in theology Creationism refers to the doctrine that God directly creates a soul for each body, as against traducianism or pre-existence of the soul. In relation to the creation-evolution controversy the term creationism (or strict creationism) is commonly used to refer to rejection of evolution. The wide spectrum of such beliefs includes young Earth creationism holding a very literal interpretation of Genesis, while old Earth creationism accepts geological findings but rejects evolution. The term theistic evolution has been coined to refer to beliefs in creation which are compatible with scientific findings on evolution and the age of the Earth.
There are no additional citations as yet: if required, the dictionary references discussed above could be cited, and the "spectrum" section would cite The Creation/Evolution Continuum by Eugenie Scott. The article already covers all these various meanings save only Creationism (soul) which is covered in its own article. .. dave souza, talk 08:54, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I did a few things:
Please discuss whatever problems you have with these edits in this section.
Fradulent Ideas 18:21, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
There is an archived discussion of this template at
Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/Not_deleted/May_2005#Template:Creationism2. There was no consensus for deletion.
Joe D
(t) 10:09, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I removed the edit button at the bottom to tighten the template.-- ghost 30 June 2005 14:47 (UTC)
heya -- good edits generally ... but the contents of the "pseudoscience" subsection are redundant -- they're on the template twice. i'm just deleting the redundancy ... Ungtss 20:10, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
also ... regarding flat earth ... on what basis are we describing it as a form of creationism? it seems to me it's a "related concept." to believe the earth is flat is not a form of creationism like the others -- the others relate specifically to how and when the earth was created, while flat-earthism speaks only to the shape of the earth. so if "flat earthism" is a form of creationism, then "roundearthism" is too ... and THAT'S certainly not a form of creationism. beyond that, the article title itself is "flat earth society," not "flat earth creationism," and the word "creationism" does not appear in the text. what do you think? Ungtss 20:21, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the image of Adam and Eve, I believe they should not have naval, as they were "created" and not born from womb. The image should be cleaned.
You don't need to include every word that can be associated with creationism, never mind the suptopics for these. The nav bar is not supposed to be longer than the articles. Bensaccount 8 July 2005 00:49 (UTC)
My explanation, which Ungtss must have missed, is that subtopics of distantly related associations don't belong in a nav bar. Ungtss has posted the above link about a dozen times so far, while omitting the following: [7]. This is an attempt to mislead, no doubt motivated by spite. Ungtss, as usual, offers nothing of value. Bensaccount 8 July 2005 23:26 (UTC)
yes, i think vapor canopy and baraminology could go too. here's what i propose we remove:
what do you think? Ungtss 04:07, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
.
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Creationism2"
People dont need to see every page that is remotely related to creationism on the side of their article. It simply does not help anyone, and it clutters the page. Another problem is the image. Images do not belong on nav bars. Another problem is the headings. It is POV to say that CS is the basis for creationism, since creationism came first. What makes you think that anyone would find this list of word associations to be convenient? Bensaccount 03:50, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
I removed it from the template because I'm confident this is not the place for statements; and I'm assuming pseudoscience will remain in the article(s) listed. - Roy Boy 800 01:00, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
It appears I've deleted the "Creationism2" template. This was not my purpose but it happened due to my clumsy computer skills. What I tried was to remove the box from "Flat Eath Society" article. A message I sent to the Flat Earth discussion is below (with some typos corrected).
---
Sorry if I caused unwanted trouble with the "Creationism2" template. My purpose was to remove the box from the Flat Earth article -- not to delete the template itself. Sorry if the latter happened.
Now, because it seems I don't have the computer skills myself, I strongly suggest someone to remove the box if I didn't succeed in the proper way.
The reason for this is quite clear. Although Flat Earthers mostly are creationists, the opposite is not the case. As mentioned in the article itself, the view of flat Earth is somewhat a ridicule. I'm not willing to speculate why the box had been placed on such a notable and important place, but nevertheless it gives the impression that creationism and even intelligent design are among jokes comparable to flat Earth.
I'm well aware that many naturalists and evolutionists personally think that way, but on my opinion no neutral view supports this. Firstly, the number of supporters of creationism anf flad Earth differ with a factor of four powers of ten, or so. Secondly, and more importantly, the supposed flat Earth is something that is contrary to everyday observations that almost anyone can make.
For prehistoric events, most often there are more or less some indirect clues, often to different directions, but the direct observation is beyond human perspective. Although some models combine better with the indirect evidence, no-one has to play fool and think contrary of what is seen today.
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Flat_Earth_Society"
This template is used by articles outside of the ones mentioned in the template. I'm note sure what common procedure is, but shouldn't the template contain links to all articles? Or shouldn't there be a project page in which all relevant pages are linked? Should we not put a link to [8] in the template to help people find all creationism related articles? I understand the template needn't be comprehensive, but shouldn't something tie the creationism articles together?
Should we perhaps link to [[Category:creationism]]? -- Ec5618 18:15, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
...was removed from the template. Why? — ciphergoth 18:08, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
While certainly many creationists revel in this idea, it is not part-and-parcel to creationism as a subject. In general, creationism derives from creation (theology) not from any sort of philosophical concern over proofs of the existence of god. Teleological argument may be appropriate for the Intelligent Design template, but creationism as a bigger tent doesn't necessarily ground itself in William Paley or his watchmaker. -- ScienceApologist 15:49, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I've made some appearance changes to match it to Template:Intelligent Design and Template:Evolution3, which it shared some pages with. Notably, I upped the width so it plays nicely with being combined into one box. Adam Cuerden talk 05:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm relatively new here, and am not entirely up to speed on all the proper nomenclature in these talk pages, but I'm hoping to bring up a matter which I hope will help improve the quality of the article through a matter of clarification. Before I continue, let me say a couple things about what I'm not advocating. My purpose here is not to argue that ID succeeds as a theory, or that it deserves a hearing in public schools. None of my remarks below are intended to give any defense of ID or evolutionary theory, but to seek to maintain some important distinctions, lest we allow cultural momentum to distort the substance of what Intelligent Design is.
I've read some of the works by leading thinkers on both polar ends of the spectrum on this issue. It's not uncommon to see talented and prominent professionals speak with confidence about their persuasions on metaphysical/spiritual matters while also expounding on details that pertain to their actual field of scientific study. Many of these professionals think it appropriate to publish popular books and articles allowing their limited areas of specialty to support their broader philosophical views (and presumably allow philosophical precommitments to regulate what we do in--or even call--science). While this is standard fare in popular works, I suggest the quality of their professional work would suffer if this was done regularly in professional scientific literature. We might rightly infer that in such cases, the introduction of religious or areligious references are out-of-place, since they do nothing to enhance our understanding of the actual topic one is supposed to be addressing. We might likewise do well to separate the two categories when devoting articles to the one and excluding the other.
For the purpose of this writing, I'm going to assume now that Creationism is indeed an offshoot of theology. Even if there were some data that might incidentally be in corroboration with what Creationists agree with, what is unique to Creationism is three-fold: First, it purports to give an account of where matter itself came from (hence, the term Creation); secondly, its dependence on a sacred text to provide the parameters which define the enterprise throughout its pursuit from conception to outcome; finally, all forms of creationism identifies a deity of some kind as the creator.
So the perennial question we might ask is what, precisely, warrants associating Intelligent Design with Creationism? Well, as I survey culturally iconic figures that make this association, I notice we have a judge, the ACLU, bloggers, social critics, activist organizations, and even some antithetical scientific thinkers weigh in on the matter.
But to my knowledge, none of the leading thinkers in the Intelligent Design movement identify ID as a form of Creationism, as construed above. This is neither done explicitly, or by implication--whereby the strict aims of what ID is intended to address are substantially indistinguishable with that of Creationism. While Creationism deals directly with the question of ultimate origin, Intelligent Design limits its scope to examining the characteristics of pre-existent matter -- to say nothing of how matter itself came into being in the first place. Intelligent Design examines certain already existing components of nature and asks whether particular phenomena in natural systems display features not adequately explained by the current naturalistic paradigm, but instead bear a level of specified complexity normally attributed to objects we know to have an intelligent cause. And unlike creationism, ID relies on no sacred text to govern how any outcome must look like, or what the origin of the designer must be.
While ID proponents do write regularly in popular literature about the relationships and implications their ideas have on their religious worldviews, I see no substantial difference between them and the professional thinkers who regularly do so on behalf of their irreligious viewpoints. But we do not find it acceptable to link articles to atheism from Wikipedia's Evolutionary Biology pages, and for good reason: they would only serve to obfuscate the actual issues at hand rather than enhancing it. I think it would be entirely appropriate and acceptable to quote leading thinkers from the skeptical side to show that some do, in fact, make that association, but in the absence of any good reason to discount the distinctions I've presented above, may I suggest that ID be removed from the "Creationism" category?
Respectfully, Daniel.--—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.204.42.135 ( talk • contribs) 19:03, 21 July 2007
There are several reasons to regard intelligent design as creationism:
It does not matter what public face intelligent design supporters want to present to the world. Their own propaganda, communications to their base, arguments etc betray their true beliefs and agendas. It is like Muslims claiming that Osama bin Laden is not a terrorist and never took credit for any terrorist attacks, ever and no muslim ever was involved in a suicide bombing. It does not matter what they claim; what is the evidence? So the Discovery Institute can claim anything it likes; we are not here to be a shill for them but to state the facts as we are able to determine and verify them. If you want more detail, just see the article intelligent design.-- Filll 20:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
<undent> An editor was objecting to categorizing intelligent design as creationism. And several of us were explaining why this was appropriate. And I believe that having been educated, the editor decided not to push this agenda.-- Filll 01:41, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
The belief that the sum of all life in the world, the fact that the universe exits is be attributed to random chance in which nothing became something that formed the big bang is ludicrous. The idea that a "higher entity" created everything we see around us is also escapism and such beliefs hold us back. The proof that all living things change is irrefutable. The tectonic plates of the earths crust move and over very long times a certain land mass that was, say, in the equator is now at the south pole. The creatures that live in Antarctica would have had an ancestry that traced back to that time when the land mass was in the equator. Creatures that live in the equator often have less fur compared to others that inhabit artic regions. More fur means less loss of heat form the body and less fur equates to more loss. Black and white humans also show this trait. Black humans naturally inhabit places in which there is lots of sun light and the darker skin gives them some protection against ultraviolet light. Whites have lighter skin because they naturally inhabit darker regions like England. Sun light produces a vitamin in the human body which is required to produce healthy bones but too much light leads to cancer and skin damage. Darker skin stops more skin damage than lighter but inhibits this vitamin production.
So maybe god created us according to the environment in which we inhabited. But then take into account all the fossilized relics that have been discovered that have genetic links to us and other creatures but are slightly different from them. You are forced to realize that animals under go change in order to live in a certain environment. Those who don't realize this are ignorant or zealots of their faith. (Zealots are ignorant)
What I believe is that God created the light, the earth, carbon, helium, oxygen, hydrogen, lithium, and all the elements that make up our universe, and a code, similar to computer binary that was subject to change. More often than not that change is damaging. The organism with that change would die and the error would be paged. But every so often the change would be beneficial to that organism and it would thrive better than the others and pass it on to the next generation. And Gods hand guided this change to form modern man and through this process man gained knowledge and understanding of a world subject to change.
God, in any religion, defies logic as we know it. The fact that came down to earth him self (Christ) in order to better understand the existence he created is mind boggling in its own right. Such an entity is wise beyond us and beyond our comprehension. While I’ll admit belief in the existence of an omnipotent entity is counter productive, some things in the universe are beyond random chance. . Pathogen1 14:15, 28 July 2007 (UTC) 28/07/2007
Regarding the, ahem, argument about what "creationism" means, Antievolutionists and Creationists gives a brief and informative answer. "When the Origin of Species went on sale late in 1859, the term "creationist" commonly designated a person who believed in the special origination of a soul for each human fetus, as opposed to a traducianist, who believed that the souls of children were inherited from their parents. Although Darwin (in private) and his allies occasionally referred to their opponents as "creationists," for about seventy-five years after the publication of his book such adversaries were more typically called "advocates of creation" or, increasingly, "anti-evolutionists.".... It was not until 1929 that... the Seventh-day Adventist biologist Harold W. Clark, explicitly packaged Price’s new catastrophism as "creationism." In a brief self-published book titled Back to Creationism Clark urged readers to quit simply opposing evolution and to adopt the new "science of creationism," by which he meant Price’s flood geology. For decades to come various Christian groups, from flood geologists to theistic evolutionists, squabbled over which camp most deserved to use the creationist label. However, by the 1980s the flood geologists/scientific creationists had clearly co-opted the term for their distinctive interpretation of earth history" Looks like a good source for an update to the article, and other articles by him on that site are also useful....... dave souza, talk 17:32, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Any objections to said alternate opening line, given the overwhelming evidence, it can hardly be considered npov as it is in fact scientific fact, and a statement that creationism is in fact, wrong, is no more incorrect than a statement that any fictitious tale isn't true (i.e. harry potter, lord of the rings). Philc 20:18, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with ornis. If you want to contribute, take a look at some of our other articles which are in dire shape. This minor change will not fly, and will waste a huge amount of time in a huge fight. Meanwhile, we have dozens if not hundreds of other articles on this general topic that are in sad shape, or badly biased (usually towards creationist views). So have at it! -- Filll 13:19, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
<undent>Wrong that you may consider creationism to be, you can't add 'false' to the lead, and in any case, the worst you could say is that certain versions of creationism are unsupported by science (which it already does). You can't prove a negative, and God could be smart enough to create everything in seven six days, including a whole bunch of false evidence for evolution. Also, notice the opposition you are getting - other editors, dedicated editors don't think you should do so. Even were you working from policy,
there's enough to accept leaving the current version as is. Finally, the article is about a religious concept, so of course it's going to be 'biased' (more accurately, non-condemming) towards the religious interpretation. Post-finally, your talk page says you've retired - you may want to update if you're back to long-term editing.
WLU 17:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
“ | the only people who would reply to my post are those who do have a vendetta | ” |
(ri)The more I read this statement from Philc_0780, that harder I find it to believe that he is contributing to this discussion in good faith. The strong implication is that the original post was meant as a deliberate troll. The alternative interpretation, per WP:AGF, is that the editor genuinely believes that Creationism is false (although he has cited no scientific evidence that falsifies it) and also believes that any reasonable editor would agree. In this case, I concur with WLU and would suggest that in addition to WP:NPOV Philc undertakes a study of WP:V. Sheffield Steel talkers stalkers 14:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
<undent> Please read #Answers by Numbers and the linked source. The belief isn't falsified by science, it's simply outside science. Where the conflict arises is when "creationism" is redefined to demand that science should support the interpretation of empirical evidence as providing "proof" of that belief, as was essentially done by the YECs. The intelligent design question is essentially whether religious dogmatism can redefine science to support supernatural explanations, rather than these explanations being beyond the essentially secular scientific method as accepted by most believers in Creation. Please also read WP:NPOV and WP:NPOV/FAQ with care and detailed attention, and accept the requirement of WP:TALK that this page is for improving the article and not for getting on a soapbox. Unless there are early signs of positive efforts to propose improvements which comply with policies, this off-topic ramble will have to be deleted or archived. .. dave souza, talk 21:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to recommend to editors working on this article two books, not just to ass to the further reading list but as resources for editors to this article. Both are books by Philip Kitcher: Living With Darwin: Evolution, Design and the Future of Faith and Abusing Science: the Case Against Creationism. One was reviewed, and the other discussed, in an essay by H. Allen Orr in the most recent issue of The New York Review of Books. Orr is an evolutionary geneticist in the Biology Department of the University of Rochester; he has published in Science and Nature as well as other top peer-reviewed journals in evolutionary biology, so his credentials as a scientist are impeccable - and he argues that both of these books, while specifically polemics against creationism and ID, are also superb and accessible inroductions to the philosophy of science and evolutionary theory. Kitcher is himself the subjct of a Wikipedia article; he is a professor of philosophy (of science) who holds the Dewey Chair at Columbia University, and who has published on both creationism and sociobiology and has also published in a host of peer-reviewed journals. I have to say, I am especially impressed when a pracicing scientist heaps praise on a philosopher of science. Orr emphasizes that in addressing creationists Kitcher is really trying to lay out as clearly as possible the essence of scientific thought and the history of the development of evolutionary theory, as well as the history of creationist thought (including but not limited to ID). I do not have these books, but if any editors here has access to them they might provide us with helpful ideas not just of themes we might want to develop, but of ideas about how better to express certain ideas. I just read the review this week, and it really is an outstanding review, which is why I bring it up now. I would think that even advocates of creationism would want to consult these books - if they are interested in developing arguments to support creationism; a good argument for creationism would be strengthened if it could respond to the argumnts in these books. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
With respect, we don't need to respoind to rossnixon's comment at all. Don't let him trick you into a meaningless tangential discussion about science. It does not matter whether the books are objective (inceed, our NPOV policy doesn't care about objectivity at all: it demands that different points of view be included, NPOV and by extension Wikipedia is agnostic about truth and objectivity and these questions should never enter into a discussion about how to improve an article) - rossnixon's point is based either on a well-intentioned misunderstanding of Wikipedia and its policies, or is just a red-herring meant to disrupt work on imporving the article. All that matters is that they are two books, both writen by a scholar with impeccable credentials, each published by a highly reputable academic press, bith well-reviewed by other scholars. Objectivity is irrelevant What is important is that this article include verifiable views from reliable sources. These books meet those criteria. Rossnixon's ignorance about science is not the issue (we will never succeed in teaching him what science is); the only thing that matters when discussing how to improve an article is his ignoraance of Wikipedia policies. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:53, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Thoughts on the new section? The main is a redlink.
Biblical Reality teaches that there are no “creation accounts” in Genesis, and that “Moses Didn’t Write About Creation”. What is actually being said is “Moses wrote about Restoration”. Before the advent of “Biblical Reality”, no faction of creationism could explain both the “first day” of Moses and the “Fourth Day”, all being 24-hr days, without either denying literal interpretation or “redefining” the scriptures.
WLU 01:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Main was also recently speedy deleted. WLU 06:23, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I have just removed a similar section from Old Earth creationism by the same author, citing "non-notable, original research, self-promotion". -- Robert Stevens 11:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
It is a tribute to the ingenuity of the human imagination. You take a book that has 4 separate creation accounts, 2 of which are in Genesis and different and you get interpretations like:
and so on. People are amazing...-- Filll 22:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I was shocked to read about the 4 accounts in a book in the library. I might take it out again and then include it in the article. The other 2 accounts are not in Genesis.-- Filll 17:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
We currently start with Creationism is the belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe were created in their entirety by a deity or deities (typically God), whose existence is presupposed. But is creationism really that (rather general) belief, or is it only the movement that promotes this view in opposition to other alternatives? Could we e.g. move to Creationism is the expressed belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe were created in their entirety by a presupposed deity or deities (typically God). The term is in particular used to denote the movement that promotes this world view over naturalistic explanations of origins? -- Stephan Schulz 07:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I have a few fairly religious Christian friends and relatives who still shudder at the thought of being called "Creationsts". I don't know if the term is still used with such a broad meaning as we imply in the first sentence. -- Stephan Schulz 20:12, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
The problem with this entire field, is that certain terms have acquired certain meanings and connotations, depending on time and location. So there is a huge confusion in the US about what the term "Christian" actually refers to, some of this done on purpose. To some, Catholics are not Christians, and Mormons are not Christians, Methodists are not Christians, Quakers are not Christians, etc. The only people that can call themselves Christians (to some) are those who subscribe to biblical literalism and even deny things like the golden rule (i.e., "love your neighbor as yourself"). The more you talk to people, the more you discover that many groups have their own very narrow definitions and want to claim certain terms for themselves, or apply certain terms to other groups. A similar thing is going on with the term "creationist" in the US at the moment, which is more likely to mean someone who believes that the bible is literally true, that the earth/universe is 6000 years old, that the earth/universe was made in 6 literal 24 hour days, that evolution and/or science is equivalent to atheism, communism, fascism, Nazism, racism, devil worship etc. So some terms acquire negative or positive connotations which they did not have before, in a process called pejoration or a euphemism treadmill (or a dysphemism treadmill). Under these circumstances, some might be uncomfortable about being called a creationist, or an evolutionist or a Christian etc.-- Filll 20:52, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Well we clearly know what side of the fence you are on, given that you use the term "evolutionist" which is currently only characteristic of creationists and their ilk (speaking of language with negative connotations...). And this is not the place to debate evolution or creationism themselves, but of course many ordered structures are just created by the laws of nature, and we have literally millions of examples. You are free to call the laws of nature an input of information if you like. Even of action by an intelligent being. Others are free to characterize it in a different way, and they do. However, you are not free to impose by force your views on others. Are we understood? As for some text supporting my claims above (with some references), consider:
It is claimed that many perceived social ills like crime, teen pregnancies, homosexuality, abortion, immorality, wars, etc. are caused by a belief in evolution. [1] R. Albert Mohler, Jr., President of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, wrote August 8, 2005 in National Public Radio's forum, "Taking Issue", that "Debates over education, abortion, environmentalism, homosexuality and a host of other issues are really debates about the origin — and thus the meaning — of human life.... Evolutionary theory stands at the base of moral relativism and the rejection of traditional morality". [2] [3] Creationist Ken Ham likens evolution to a horde of termites, weakening society's foundation. In Why Won't They Listen?, Ham suggests that "evolutionary termites" are responsible for pornography, homosexual behavior and lawlessness. He also writes, "I'm not saying that evolution is the cause of abortion or school violence. What I'm saying is that the more a culture abandons God's word as the absolute authority, and the more a culture accepts an evolutionary philosophy, then the way people think, and their attitudes, will also change." [4] Former Texas Republican Representative Tom DeLay claimed that the Columbine school shootings were caused by the teaching of evolution. DeLay is quoted as stating that "Our school systems teach the children that they are nothing but glorified apes who are evolutionized [sic] out of some primordial soup." [5] Henry M. Morris, engineering professor and founder of the Creation Research Society and the Institute of Creation Research, claims that evolution was part of a pagan religion that emerged after the Tower of Babel, was part of Plato's and Aristotle's philosophies, and was responsible for everything from war to pornography to the breakup of the nuclear family. [6]
Rev. D. James Kennedy of The Center for Reclaiming America for Christ claims that Darwin was responsible for Adolf Hitler's atrocities. In D. James Kennedy's documentary, and the accompanying pamphlet with the same title, Darwin’s Deadly Legacy, Kennedy states that "To put it simply, no Darwin, no Hitler." In his efforts to expose the "harmful effects that evolution is still having on our nation, our children, and our world." Kennedy also states that, "We have had 150 years of the theory of Darwinian evolution, and what has it brought us? Whether Darwin intended it or not, millions of deaths, the destruction of those deemed inferior, the devaluing of human life, increasing hopelessness." [7] [8] Discovery Institute fellow Richard Weikart has made similar claims. [9] Kent Hovind of Creation Research Evangelism blames the Holocaust, World War I, the Vietnam War, World War II, Stalin's war crimes, communism, racism, socialism and Pol Pot's Cambodian killing fields on evolution, as well as the increase in crime, unwed mothers, and other social ills. [10] Kent Hovind's son Eric Hovind has now taken over the family business while his father is in prison, and claims that evolution is responsible for tattoos, body piercing, premarital sex, unwed births, sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), divorce and child abuse. [11]
However, this is probalby a pointless exercise, since I am sure your mind is made up. And I am certain that if you were the least bit honest with yourself or objective, you would know what I said was correct.-- Filll 17:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
We are supposed to discuss the article itself, not the subject of the article. And if you want to avoid offense, I would be very cautious about use of the words " evolutionist" or "evolutionary". In some contexts and in some places, they can give offense, for a variety of reasons. I am completely confused about your arguments. Some say evolution leads to all these ills. Some say it is equivalent. It hardly matters, to be honest, in my opinion. You are free to split hairs, however you like. Creationists do not agree with each other on these matters, in my experience. All such claims basically amount to the same thing; that "evolution is a bad bad thing and an evil monster that we have to drive away with pitchforks and torches". And one way to do it is to identify it or associate it in one way or another with a huge range of other social and political ills. And what some creationists call "evolution" encompasses a huge amount of material in science like:
and so on and so forth. So depending on the type of creationist a person is, they can end up rejecting a huge fraction of science in a frantic attempt to preserve biblical literalism, subscribed to by only a teeny tiny narrow minority of Christians and Jews, and questioned even by Thomas Aquinas and many others since then. And maybe you are not "forcing" your opinions on anyone. I do not know. All I know is that there is an immense movement in the United States to take tax money collected by force from people of all faiths and no faith, and then distribute it to creationists to teach narrow religious views of a tiny group of religious sects to children of all backgrounds and all faiths. And this is inappropriate, in my view and the view of the courts. And so therefore, when I state my views, I often will state my position on these issues. That is, you are free to believe what you want, and so am I. And I will not force you to believe what I believe. And you will not force me to believe what you believe. And in addition, in secular institutions, we will use and promote the use of our best secular knowledge. We will not promote religious agendas, since I do not live under the Taliban, and I do not think you do either. Clear?-- Filll 19:18, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I updated the Catholic position. The original source was somewhat in conflict with the actual views expressed by the Church. I included a fork to evolution and the catholic church for a better discussion of the issue. ( Runwiththewind 14:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC))
I edited that this main and basic belief which leads into the article, is not something restricted to creationists, but that they belong in a broader group of people with this very ancient traditionalist worldview that life is created. And this is a broad general basic very traditional outlook on life on which the movement in whole is based on. I am not saying the movement in itself is traditional, indeed they themselves deny this. All i am saying is that the general point of their belief system is based on tradition, which some of their leading figures claim is strict and pure science-- יודל 18:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
<undent> To assert a "fact", you must comply fully with WP:A, WP:RS and WP:NPOV, and explain yourself coherently in English. Revealed truth and partisan primary sources won't do. .. dave souza, talk 20:07, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
<undent> - User:Yidisheryid, please ensure that you "fix the language" in talk pages and don't try making unsourced edits to articles. I've challenged your premise above, and will continue to do so until you VERIFY clearly what you're claiming, at which point we'll then have to consider the arguments presented for WP:NPOV generally, and undue weight in particular.. . .. dave souza, talk 21:20, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
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help page).![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | → | Archive 25 |
I merged the archives, I think material discussed loses relevancy when broken. I simply cut pasted material together. Page will load faster than user can read even on a 56k machine. This page was 200+kb large. Excesive is an under statement. Archived all entries till april. -- Cat chi? 10:55, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I hope no one had an Heart Attack. Thanks. -- Cat chi? 11:03, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There seem to be a lot of discussions that have been adequately adressed. The topic on Salva could conceivably be moved there in a short while aswell, though I wouldn't mind it if this topic grew into a single archive that we could like to from the article on the creation-evolution controversy as an example of a typical discussion on the subject.
I moved Removal of two sections to creation-evolution controversy to the archive aswell, as a #New Criticism section has been created which continues the discussion. - Ec5618 18:13, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
I have now moved the Salva/Aaaagh monologues to this archive aswell. I'm trying to keep this page from cluttering to a point where new editors are scared off because of the mess. -- Ec5618
Have moved
to /Archive 12 -- Ec5618 23:45, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
Archived Truthteller ranting, as suggested by JoeD ( /Ranting) -- Ec5618 23:45, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
I see all of the pro-evolution liberal/socialist gore nuts are still getting to say anything they want without any fear of ever having their POV squashed.
Wiki is pathetic.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.145.184.6 ( talk • contribs) 19:01, 5 April 2007
If you're complaining, I suggest you go to Conservapedia, where they all take a conservative stance. I would join them, but I have "miles to go before I sleep." bibliomaniac 1 5 20:31, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
'Many of those who hold strict creationist views reject any scientific explanations for natural phenomena that contradict their interpretation of scripture as to how the same phenomena occurred.' This is elementary, and I don't see why it needs to be in the article. Similarly, 'many of those who wear green are not wearing red,' but this is so obvious that nobody appends it to any articles. WolfieInu 10:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Like I said, we could go on refining forever. Maybe we should implement your (SheffieldSteel's) suggestion and leave it at that, perhaps merely replacing the second occurrence of "scientific" with "mainstream" to make it sound less awkward. And if I may go off on a tangent, I wouldn't say that 'creationists are antagonistic towards [all of] science', since by definition creationism can only contradict current origins science, and not neutral territory such as chemistry, quantum mechanics, etc. WolfieInu 18:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
<let's just decrease the indent a bit here> It's like I said, as soon as a debate gets going, the editing of the sentence is not going to get done. That's a shame, I kind of liked SheffieldSteel's suggestion. Concerning the scientific method.
I agree with Orangemarlin, the scientific method cannot be directly applied to anything. That was my point. What the scientific method assumes is that there are certain laws of the universe that can be applied anywhere, at any time. In other words, no Flying Spaghetti Monsters are changing the results before our very eyes. Creationists agree with and subscribe to the entire scientific method, without reservation. As such, applied science cannot be affected by creationism, or evolutionism either for that matter.
The difference lies in our assumptions about how the universe, to which this scientific method can be applied, came about. This cannot be determined by just looking at the evidence, since there is a nearly infinite amount of factors, far too much for the human brain to process and come up with an answer (whether or not this is 42 remains to be seen). The only way a model can be constructed is to assume certain things about the universe beforehand (this is commonly known as a bias). The predictions of the theory can then be tested against hard facts. If it doesn't measure up, out it goes. At this point in time, both the creationists and evolutionists have a lot going for them and, IMHO, a set of problems each. The conflict creationists have is not with science (as in the scientific method) but the bias it is currently being applied to (evolution is the starting assumption). That's why it is possible for genuine scientists to be creationists. They have the same education and use the same method, but have a different bias.
'[T]he basis of all Biology is evolution' - how, exactly? Does it change the metabolism of sugar, the working of enzymes, the 'unzipping' of DNA, Natural Selection, or anything else that is relevant to Biology? The creation/evolution issue is only making headlines because of the religious component. It hardly affects real-world biology at all.
As for JoshuaZ's objection, I stand corrected. I am referring specifically to YEC, not 'creationism' in the most general sense. This provides an additional reason to fix the sentence and to make things less ambiguous. WolfieInu 07:58, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Creationism does not necessarily mean that you have to reject the scientific method, not even YEC. There's nothing wrong with the hypothesis that the world is only 6000 years old, but was created to look billions of years old, except that it is untestable. It accepts that science shows that the world is billions of years old. Belief in a God is equally untestable, equally unscientific, but doesn't require you to reject the scientific method. On the other hand, large swaths of the population reject the scientific method...not just creationists, but also left wing intellectuals. Obviously using the Bible to argue against science is a rejection of the scientific method. "Creation science" as it currently exists is a rejection of the scientific method, because it does not use the scientific method to test its "hypotheses", it proposes hypotheses to conform the Bible. Regardless of what Wolfie says, bumper stickers which say things like "The Bible said it, I believe it, that settles it" do not represent a straw man - if you think otherwise, come down to the Bible Belt. The sentence is a fair representation of the situation. Guettarda 13:09, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
“ | When scientific research produces conclusions which contradict the creationist interpretation of scripture, the strict creationist approach is to reject that research's conclusions, its underlying scientific theories, or its methodology. The most notable cases are the impact of evolution on the development of living organisms, the idea of common descent, the geologic history of the Earth, the formation of the solar system, and the origin of the universe. | ” |
(un-dent) Made the change; off to look for references SheffieldSteel 17:52, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
What the hell is this? " Creationism is separate from and should not be confused with the Christian tradition of "Creation Spirituality," which draws upon the theology of Matthew Fox. " Aside from not being factual (the Fox part) was there really a reason to make any distinction? •Jim62sch• 22:10, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't believe this box belongs as a Wikipedia's-point-of-view box, although it can be asserted as an editor's POV. Empiricism represents one point of view among others, such as idealism, phenomenalism, etc. A claim that creationism is a scientific truth can be refuted by scientists, but a preference for faith over empirical methods as the source of ones worldview cannot be refuted by scientists. There is a distinction between claims to being science and claims to truth. The idea that the only possible route to truth involves the scientific method is indeed a POV. Proofs depend on the assumptions one is willing to accept. Best, -- Shirahadasha 17:18, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
What's this? It has just been added to the article as a whole new section - which reads like a lot of original research without much in the way of verifiable sources. Does it really exist? If so, shouldn't it have its own wikipedia article at Recolonisation theory, and shouldn't the section here primarily point to that article? I'm not going to write such an article, because I've not heard of "recolonisation theory" before I came across it here - and a google search reveals... well, not a lot, in fact! Anyone know anything about it? If it's notable enough for mention here, it's notable enough for its own article. Snalwibma 09:12, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
It sounds a little like the catastrophicism that was popular int he Victorian period: You know, each geological age as a seprate creation? But really badly explained. Adam Cuerden talk 15:02, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Recolonisation theory is the basis on which most UK geologists who include creation in their world-view interpret the geological and palaeontological record. In the UK, therefore, most do not interpret the 'fossil record as a record of the destruction of the global flood recorded in Genesis'. It has, moreover, considerably more adherents than the 'omphalos hypothesis' that is deemed to warrant a mention in the article. Comments such as 'nonsense' and 'badly explained' reinforce what we all know, that emotion so often takes the place of reason in this area, and that at least some of the content of the creationism article - and omitted potential content - is determined by participants who are not as well acquainted with the subject as they should be.
Catastrophism was more common in the pre-Victorian period than in the Victorian: by the 1830s the intellectual world was ripe for Lyellian uniformitarianism. Recolonisation theory does not in fact resemble Victorian catastrophism and expressly rejects the idea of a 'seprate creation' in each geological age (see Recolonisation in a nutshell). Regardless of its strengths and weaknesses, it is a radically new theory. Fastnet 19:41, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
We should only include it in Wikipedia if we can find any notable content on it. Gould's article is simply an analysis of what he considered an old, dead theory that was nonetheless an interesting attempt by a woman scientist-theologian to combine science and religion on the cusp of Darwin's revolution. Can you show any evidence that it's notable or widely-held today? Adam Cuerden talk 20:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
There's no nice way to say this: This section is appalling. It consists of ridiculously short, context free subsections, one of which (Islamic creationism) is a single sentence that merely says it exists. Flying Spaghetti monsterism opens the section, this arguably demeans the other religions, as the description of it is in exactly the same neutral language as the Hinduism summary following, no attempt is made to make it clear that most of these creationist movements are tiny. Adam Cuerden talk 19:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I and most others have no problem with those of creationist beliefs UNTIL they verge over into intolerance and irrationality imposed on others. It is fine to believe in a literal interpretation of the bible AS LONG as you do not use it to abuse others or to insist that others reject their beliefs or rational evidence. Other than that, feel free to believe whatever you like! After all, there is no law against delusions, insanity, irrationality, etc.-- Filll 02:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Re: Homestarmy - I called creationists nutters. It's a personal opinion I would never attempt to put on the page. Further discussion is well off topic and I'm going to be dropping it.
My apologies, I'm not sure I understand Addhoc's comment. Is it because the Hindu equivalent uses a different term than 'Creationism'? The reaons it's suggested is because conservative Christian creationism is the dominant form, and other forms are less visible, but they do exist. Is there a way to acknowledge the dominance of CCC within the public arena? Should we bother? Is there a comparable set of wikipages that has dealt with a similar topic successfully and even-handedly? Right now I see a very strong possibility of an excessive emphasis on the US version of creationism, which is something I'd like to avoid. WLU 20:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Why is this last paragraph in here? It should be on the discussion page. Check out the evolution page; it doesn't tout the "opposition" and all their opinions and what they do with evidences; nor does it discuss the fraudulent cases associated with evolution. Another intellectually honest article by wikipedia. ;o(
...as I said during a previous discussion, perhaps we should provide a disambiguation page for this article? -- WolfieInu 15:25, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The disambiguation note at the top of the article says: ""Creationism" can also refer to origin beliefs in general, or to an alternative of traducianism."
I would like to question this particular formulation. Do such things as the ancient Greek myths about creation of the universe qualify as 'creationism'? One problem is that Creation myths on Wikipedia have been diverted to Origin beliefs, presumably on the basis that 'myths' is a pejorative term. This, and the tone of the first paragraph, seem to imply that any kind of creation myth belongs to 'creationism'.
Can anyone come up with citations (other than this article) to prove that 'creationism' can equally be understood refer to Roman, Greek, Japanese, etc. myths and legends, even where the belief factor is essentially dead?
Bathrobe 07:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
<undent>Let clarify things. I have no problem with anyone having their own personal beliefs. I have no problem with someone personally believing the literal account in Genesis or the Vedas or the Koran or any other religious text. I have a problem when in the secular public sphere, as in public school classrooms, or a secular encyclopedia like Wikipedia, people want to insist that others submit to them and their own personal religious beliefs. These are usually not based on science or evidence, but just a particular interpretation of a particular religious text. I am sorry, but I believe that this starts to verge on intolerance, and I must insist that we avoid it.-- Filll 13:18, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Apologies if this has already been discussed, but two points in the Overview bothered me a bit.
I don't know about point 1, but I think the proposed edit to point 2 is a good idea. I've gone and edited it, any objections? -- WolfieInu 09:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Most Christian churches in the US have no objection to evolution and do not subscribe to creationism:
United Methodist Church, National Baptist Convention, USA, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Presbyterian Church (USA), National Baptist Convention of America, African Methodist Episcopal Church, the Roman Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, and others. [1]
The members of these churches constitute over 78% of the Christians in the US. In the past, this number has been as high as 90%.
The churches that reject evolution in the US constitute a tiny minority. These include churches like Assemblies of God, [2] the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, [3] the Free Methodist Church, the Jehovah's Witnesses, Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, [4] Pentecostal Churches, Seventh-day Adventist Churches, [5] Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, Christian Reformed Church, and the Pentecostal Oneness churches. [6]
As for statements that God created the cosmos, these are NOT part of evolution.
Also, it is very common for fundamentalists and creationists to just resort to claiming that anyone that disagrees with them is not Christian.-- Filll 14:32, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Of course there are many types of creationist (Young Earth, Old Earth, Adamite, etc etc). But creationists in general usually reject the scientific method, and introduce the supernatural as an explanation for natural events. Most creationists reject some or all aspects of the Modern Synthesis or NeoDarwinian Evolutionary theory. Many Christian creationists accept biblical literalism or biblical inerrancy, at least for some aspects of the biblical text. Islamic creationists do the same for the koran. Hindu creationists or their counterparts in Hinduism do the same for some of the vedic texts. Jewish creationists do the same for the Torah. If an individual accepts the dominant scientific explanations of the universe and life and its origins, then even if they believe in God or a Creator, then they would not be referred to as a creationist in general. In fact, many fundamentalists might dismiss them and call them atheists, or Satanists, or threaten them and curse them, in a most "unChristian" fashion, but one that is quite typical in my experience, and those of others. Often, fundamentalists will accept people who believe in theistic evolution when it suits their uses to inflate certain statistics or to make a case, but then reject them in other circumstances. Just typical and annoying and it does not reflect well on them.-- Filll 18:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
If one includes pantheist and panentheistic definitions of God, then most atheists are on the creationist team too, including Richard Dawkins probably. So if one makes the definition broad enough, one can get every single human to be defined as a creationist. This is not particularly helpful, however. I went to http://www.onelook.com and looked up both creationist and creationism and I see there are about 50+ definitions or so. Some of these definitions are very similar, so there are maybe a good 10 definitions which are distinguishable. Perhaps a separate article on Definitions of creationism is called for to explore this issue, and different types of creationist and creationism. -- Filll 20:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Well it depends on how one defines a deity and supernatural.-- Filll 21:02, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm I think you have pointed out that we have some definition problems in our articles.-- Filll 21:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Theistic evolution maybe should not be part of creationism, although it is on the "creationism spectrum." And naturalistic views of the Creator such as pantheism which is verging on atheism probably should not be part of creationism either, but by some definitions pantheists and other atheists would be creationists as well. Another source of confusion arises because some meanings of creationism define only where the soul comes from, so that instead of coming from the parents, the soul is created by God. So Roman Catholicism is creationist by that definition of creationism, and maybe by some others as well, but not by the most common definitions. I could go on and on through each definition in any of 30 or so dictionaries, and we could define creationism to include no more than 1 or 2% of the US population, all the way up to 95% or more of the US population. Do we need to explore this further? --
Filll 21:47, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Creationists view evolution as a source of society's ills, and the writings of Morris and Clark are typical expressions of that view.... Creationists have adopted the view of Fundamentalists generally that there are only two positions with respect to the origins of the earth and life: belief in the inerrancy of the Genesis story of creation and of a worldwide flood as fact, or a belief in what they call evolution.... The creationist organizations consider the introduction of creation science into the public schools part of their ministry. [7]
I am not claiming talkorigins is a great reference on this issue. I am alsoo not claiming that the National Center for Science Education necessarily should have the final say in how we define creationism. But Homestarmy has clearly highlighted a difficulty we have ignored in the multiple conflicting and overlapping definitions of "creationism". Just as evolution and evolutionism have had a number of meanings over the years, so it appears that creationism has had and still retains a plethora of contradictory meanings. And now, here we are writing a semi-authorative text, and we have some confusion here. I personally would like to define creationism to include:
This is just a starter, but clearly enables one to draw a clear distinction between atheists and creationists, or between creationists and the vast majority of scientists, or between creation scientists and scientists, or between Catholic doctrine and Pentecostal doctrine, for example.-- Filll 22:41, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
<undent>Well we could discuss them all, but we do not really have the space for it in this article. That is why I suggest an article on Definitions of creationism..-- Filll 01:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
My understanding is that Definitions of evolution was a very inadequate article. The present evolutionism article basically describes in detail a variety of definitions of the term.-- Filll 15:29, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, I don't want to violate WP:3RR, so I'll just post here. By the morning, User:Homestarmy will either have to violate 3RR or I'm wrong. Anyways, the Kitzmiller decision clearly stated that schools can't teach ID. Once a court decides, it becomes de facto, unless another court overturns it, which will not happen. But I'm bored with these reversions. I expect that the sentence will be gone by the time I wake up Saturday morning. Orangemarlin 07:33, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
A minor point (refering to an edit summary) when something is "de facto law" we do not say "de facto" we say "de jure." Slrubenstein | Talk 15:05, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
<RI>Conclusion. For anyone who reads this discussion, note that it was done in a WP:CIVIL manner, between highly opinionated people, and we arrived at somewhat of a consensus. Jim62sch, you know I love you, but READ THE RULING wasn't quite fair. Homestarmy made a valid point, which is the ruling really only is binding in the Middle District of Pennsylvania, but carries substantial weight as precedent elsewhere. Personally, I don't think any school district would be stupid enough to spend that kind of money to fight it, so it becomes, de facto, the law of the land. By the way, I made a change to the section so that it reflected what I believed is how it works, but Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor, not a Constitutional Lawyer. (I have been waiting years to actually say that to someone named Jim.) LOL. Orangemarlin 16:13, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
The OED has nothing on this term, and we cannot use a Wiki to source a Wiki as Wikis do not meet WP:RS
Also, this, from Str1977 is nonsense: "(created article for those denying the term)" [1]. •Jim62sch• 10:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
... I'm not sure this article has one. While I don't agree with Creationism one iota, surely NPoV requires that both eventualities be accepted as equally likely, at least in this article? In reality, the view expressed is decidedly Evolutonist (especially in the intro), and so for the sake of article quality I'd argue that this be remedied. Disclaimer - I am definitely an evolutionist, I just think that this isn't NPoV. The fact that it's my PoV expressed is neither here nor there. -- poorsod talk 11:50, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
"Oh and “...I don't agree with creationism, but..', sounds a lot like, '...well I'm not racist, but...”.
What do you mean by a comparison of the "I'm not racist, but..." analogy to the users comments? The user wished to assert their concerns over POV as a Evolutionist while having a regard for the views of Creationists in the belief that this might make his own standpoint seem less weighted, which is frankly more than a lot of ‘editors’ seem to be doing with pages like this. The “I'm not racist, but...” phrase is typically invoked when the person making the statement follows it up with an invariably racist comment, not at all similar to what poorsod was attempting to do. So no, it’s not comparable with his comments at all. I really think you should apologise to be quite honest. I also am not a creationist… but I agree more with ‘Poorsod’ than I would you, I’m convinced there is still a fair amount of subtle weaseling from both parties at the end of certain paragraphs that I suspect would obviously not be tolerated if they were identified as coming from a particularly creationist standpoint. Isn’t it sloppy to have un-sourced statements at the end of the overview for instance as well as a statement with either critical or positive standpoints at the end of sections? Even if these statements were sourced I don’t think weighted comment should be placed at the end of sections, it’s too leading either way. Rather like childishly having the final words in a playground argument. 195.92.168.165 04:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Yeah you are right. I am probably diseased and/or addicted. I notice I rank at about position 1000 among all editors, measured by edit count, including editors that have been here quite a bit longer. However, my sense of "smell" for creationists (my fundie-dar, or creationist-dar, as it were) was already well developed before I came to WP, since I have been involved in these debates for longer than you have been alive Homestarmy, and possibly longer than your parents have been alive. What is hilarious, particularly if you look at the history of creationism, is that although science has changed considerably over the last 100 or 150 years, creationists use almost the identical arguments that were used by creationists decades and decades ago, and a lot of the same terminology. Interesting, huh? -- Filll 19:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
It's great that you think you can ‘smell’ creationists Filll, it means you probably shovel as much as you 'edit' according to your judgment. It's wonderful to know such balanced editors are so highly regarded on Wikipedia. I couldn’t give a toss about posturing creationists nuts, what bothers me more are attempts by self important non-professional wiki editors with equally outrageous and manipulative intentions, you do curious internet browsers no service whatsoever. Reading pages like this simply offends me when I feel attempts at manipulation according to a clearly biased agenda. I am glad your wiki ranking gives you comfort because it scares the hell out of me. You’re just one of the reasons I refuse to join this site because Wikipedia is clearly a doomed project under the ushering of individuals such as yourself. Perhaps you should scrutinize you own motives just as equally as those Creationists you clearly have such bias against. Have a nice ‘break’. 195.92.168.165 16:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Imho this article does belong into the cat pseudoscience because it lists all the pseudoscience of creationists (like 4.1 Young Earth creationism 4.1.1 Modern geocentrism 4.1.2 Omphalos hypothesis 4.1.3 Creation science 4.2 Old Earth creationism 4.2.1 Gap creationism 4.2.2 Day-age creationism 4.2.3 Progressive creationism 4.3 Theistic evolution 4.4 Neo-Creationism 4.4.1 Intelligent design ) greetings. -- hroest 00:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
<RI>Homestarmy, yeah I agree we had a consensus. But when I reread the article, I thought it had changed, which it had. I've deleted a lot of the pseudoscience stuff, and I happen to agree wholeheartedly with you. Now when are you going to report that AP Chemistry score? Orangemarlin 17:35, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
<unindent> OM, this article really should start by showing how there are various ideas of what "creationism" means, including the soul version (Aretha Franklin?) and the general term, but with an emphasis on the usage popularized in the Fundamentalist-Modernist Controversy of the 1920s (in "an upsurge of fundamentalist religious fervor" to cite Edwards) as meaning opposition to evolution as part of the fundies' argument against higher criticism and liberal Christianity – at heart this is a theological dispute rather than religion vs. science as it's often misrepresented... dave souza, talk 23:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
There is a conflict thesis which is accepted by many. The curent atheist thinkers like Richard Dawkins are fairly adamant that science directly contradicts religion. Wikipedia articles must acknowledge this perspective. -- Creationism is pseudoscience 18:54, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Since the scientific critique section was so short, I included a Dawkins quote to expand the section a bit. -- Fradulent Ideas 23:34, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Can someone explain to me why this was removed from the article? -- Fradulent Ideas 12:36, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
(ri) "..mind shrinking nonsense.." is amusing, but it isn't really a scientific critique. In any case I think the idea is to largly confine this article to the theology of creationism, and leave the science and pseudoscience, to the appropriate sub-articles. ornis 12:47, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
The Merriam-Webster's dictionary [2] does not define creationism as we do. The article uses, supposedly, a definition provided by Hayward. I am not at liberty to get Hayward's book at this time so can someone tell me why Hayward's definition is more verifiable than the typical definition provided by Merriam-Webster? -- Fradulent Ideas 12:42, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I think the section about how the term is most often used is correct, but should there be a citation for it? Maybe a survey or a citation search? -- Fradulent Ideas 12:47, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
<undent> Am giving this consideration, as in my opinion the broad definition comes first, and includes the multiple more-or-less literal/allegorical interpretations of the Biblical account that have been around since the first century, then in the 1920s the term begins to be primarily associated with Fundamentalists who accept old earth creation, and even animal evolution, but reject the moral implications of human evolution and successfully demand that no evolution be taught in US schools. Around this time purely literal Flood geology originates, but is confined to 7th day adventists, then that's revived in 1961 and around 1965 "scientific creationism" becomes the widely recognised idea of what it means, hence the American Heritage Dictionary's definition. The encarta article Creationism, Contributed By: Ronald L. Numbers and William Coleman gives a very useful overview. ... dave souza, talk 16:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
An editor undid my edits: [3] with the summary: "undid earlier change to more neutral and coherent version." I think there is a number of problems with the current version:
In sum, I think that my version is actually more coherent than the current version.
As for neutrality, I do not see any evidence that my version is somehow lacking over the current version. I encourage the editor who made this undo to explain precisely what they meant in this section of the talk page.
-- Fradulent Ideas 13:39, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that ornis has really understood my critique and in fact has made points in favor of my version:
In short, I think that the reasons given for the undo and the subsequent defense made is very poor. I think that we need to writing-workshop this section because right now it says almost nothing encyclopedic.
-- Fradulent Ideas 15:36, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
<undent, reply to Fradulent Ideas> Well, there are many factions of anti-creationism, but I'm sure you slot in there somewhere... my point being that your edit is (for the most part) factually correct, but POV. Just slightly, but detectably so. It's good work, and nobody can avoid being influenced by their POV. I just picked it up because my POV is diametrically opposed to yours ;) -- WolfieInu 08:14, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
There has been little to no response to my proposals on this section. I'm going to reinstate the edits trying to take into consideration the criticisms listed here. -- Fradulent Ideas 14:30, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Other than being a bit long, what is substandard about it? -- Fradulent Ideas 16:23, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I split the sentences up into two shorter sentences if that helps. I also think it is disingenuous and mean for you to revert without discussing which you have done twice by my count. You seem to think that it's okay for you to revert without discussion while criticizing me for making edits without discussion. That seems very hypocritical. Isn't there a Wikipedia policy against hypocrisy and being mean? -- Fradulent Ideas 16:31, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
<edit conflict> Here it is for discussion:
After legal judgements that teaching this in public schools contravened constitutional separation of Church and State, it was stripped of biblical references and called creation science. When the court case Edwards versus Aguillard ruled that creation science similarly contravened the constitution, all references to "creation" in a draft school textbook were changed to refer to intelligent design, which was subsequently claimed to be a new scientific theory. The Kitzmiller v. Dover ruling concluded that intelligent design is not science, and contravenes the constitutional restriction on teaching religion in public school science classes.
If an earlier version is preferred or improvements can be made, that will be welcome. .. dave souza, talk 17:58, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for listening, Dave. I made a few new tweaks to add McLean v. Arkansas. I'm curious, though, maybe this historical explanation is best left for the political controversy section? It may be too specific according to WP:LEAD. -- Fradulent Ideas 18:01, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
While it is true that most mainstream churches allow for the timeframes given by science, most do not go as far as to make it a dogmatic acceptance. Many mainstream churches are somewhat accomodating of those people who would believe in a literal interpretation when it gets right down to it. For example, while the Catholic Church has made strong statements in support of science, they also have not said it is an error to support Ussher's chronology and therefore there are plenty of Catholic creationists in the right-wing of the church fighting against the timeframes as other creationists do. Mainstream churches tend not to attack creationism directly: they instead tend to attack the ideas that only literal interpretations can be correct.
The claim was insinuated in the article that creationists timeframes are directly opposed to the theology of mainstream churches. I think that science is accepted by mainstream churches in a more nuanced apologetic fashion than that.
-- Fradulent Ideas 13:54, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
<undent>Exactly as I said before. According to that definition of creationism, *I* am a creationist and so is Orangemarlin and about 90% of the population of the USA and 50% of all scientists in the US. However, that is not a useful definition and not the one that is most commonly used. By that definition, probably half or more of the people working at the National Center for Science Education are creationists. So it is a nonsense definition.-- Filll 18:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
<undent, edit conflict> Filll, please stop your ranting and raving. I know creationism upsets you. Well, evolutionism upsets me. Yet I do not rant and rave, even though evolutionism gets forced down my throat (in an intolerant manner, I might add) perpetually, both in academic and everyday situations (even in advertising, for goodness' sake!). Creationists (e.g. Hovind) can rant and rave, and evolutionists (e.g. Dawkins) can rant and rave. That doesn't address the truth or falsehood of their positions. We can't disprove an idea by (rightly!) highlighting the attitudes of its extremist proponents. PS. 30,000 different types of (by implication, mutually incompatible) Christian? Reference? -- WolfieInu 19:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Science allows for god in the gaps creationism, which is the variety that Filll, Orangemarlin, 90% of the population, and 50% of all scientists in the US including Ken Miller are. However, I don't think that most people would consider creationism to allow for god in the gaps. -- Fradulent Ideas 19:09, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
<undent> Wait, hang on. Would this "re-direction" of the article entail deleting any material? For slightly different reasons, I raised (or concurred with) a similar view a while back: the article covers too much divergent material. Most people have American "fundamentalist" Creationism in mind when they say "creationism", so all this other material could confuse/frustrate them. Why not a disambig page? Poor martytred me, all that effort and nobody even took the trouble to comment. (sniff) -- WolfieInu 23:44, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
<ri> Quite right, Leinad, and one particularly relevant case is Charles Darwin who is commonly misrepresented as some kind of dogmatic atheist plotting from the outset to undermine Christianity, when as Moore points out he was qualified as a clergyman and was following the example of his clergyman friends in becoming a naturalist then working within the ideas of natural theology – thus The Origin of Species is natural theology, though by then his faith had waned to deism, later becoming a troubled agnosticism. Also, while it was opposed by Church of England conservative evangelicals, it was welcomed by liberals in that church and by some other denominations... dave souza, talk 16:06, 4 July 2007 (UTC) tweak - Moore notes Darwin still believed in God at time of writing the Origin .. dave souza, talk 16:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Could we remove or archive the "References" section? It's no logner relevant. -- WolfieInu 15:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
How about a separate article, linked to this one, on the different definitions of the word "creationism" and its history? I found about 20 different definitions from different encyclopediae and dictionaries that we can use to start with.-- Filll 02:13, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
this would allow each party their own platform and theoretically remove the need for arguments. i admit that while science is one cohesive view, the religious views have probably split into 100s of different views. but hey, wiki's got 2million articles and growing. let them bikker among themselves. Wikiskimmer 05:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
You might try origin belief and creation within belief systems. -- FOo 08:20, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
where are the wikis from RELIGIOUS, FUNDAMENTALIST POV?
You might want to try Conservapedia - that's a wiki encyclopaedia written from a fundamentalist POV. Guettarda 13:58, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Well if you want more wikis on this general topic:
The opening paragraph was a guddle anyway, and in my opinion it should cover all the meanings of creationism while making it clear that in terms of modern arguments it basically means anti-evolution. So, I've boldly changed it to the following:
Creationism is the belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe were created in their entirety by a deity or deities (typically God), whose existence is presupposed.[1] The term can be used to refer to specific doctrines within this broad range of beliefs, for example in theology Creationism refers to the doctrine that God directly creates a soul for each body, as against traducianism or pre-existence of the soul. In relation to the creation-evolution controversy the term creationism (or strict creationism) is commonly used to refer to rejection of evolution. The wide spectrum of such beliefs includes young Earth creationism holding a very literal interpretation of Genesis, while old Earth creationism accepts geological findings but rejects evolution. The term theistic evolution has been coined to refer to beliefs in creation which are compatible with scientific findings on evolution and the age of the Earth.
There are no additional citations as yet: if required, the dictionary references discussed above could be cited, and the "spectrum" section would cite The Creation/Evolution Continuum by Eugenie Scott. The article already covers all these various meanings save only Creationism (soul) which is covered in its own article. .. dave souza, talk 08:54, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I did a few things:
Please discuss whatever problems you have with these edits in this section.
Fradulent Ideas 18:21, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
There is an archived discussion of this template at
Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/Not_deleted/May_2005#Template:Creationism2. There was no consensus for deletion.
Joe D
(t) 10:09, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I removed the edit button at the bottom to tighten the template.-- ghost 30 June 2005 14:47 (UTC)
heya -- good edits generally ... but the contents of the "pseudoscience" subsection are redundant -- they're on the template twice. i'm just deleting the redundancy ... Ungtss 20:10, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
also ... regarding flat earth ... on what basis are we describing it as a form of creationism? it seems to me it's a "related concept." to believe the earth is flat is not a form of creationism like the others -- the others relate specifically to how and when the earth was created, while flat-earthism speaks only to the shape of the earth. so if "flat earthism" is a form of creationism, then "roundearthism" is too ... and THAT'S certainly not a form of creationism. beyond that, the article title itself is "flat earth society," not "flat earth creationism," and the word "creationism" does not appear in the text. what do you think? Ungtss 20:21, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the image of Adam and Eve, I believe they should not have naval, as they were "created" and not born from womb. The image should be cleaned.
You don't need to include every word that can be associated with creationism, never mind the suptopics for these. The nav bar is not supposed to be longer than the articles. Bensaccount 8 July 2005 00:49 (UTC)
My explanation, which Ungtss must have missed, is that subtopics of distantly related associations don't belong in a nav bar. Ungtss has posted the above link about a dozen times so far, while omitting the following: [7]. This is an attempt to mislead, no doubt motivated by spite. Ungtss, as usual, offers nothing of value. Bensaccount 8 July 2005 23:26 (UTC)
yes, i think vapor canopy and baraminology could go too. here's what i propose we remove:
what do you think? Ungtss 04:07, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
.
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Creationism2"
People dont need to see every page that is remotely related to creationism on the side of their article. It simply does not help anyone, and it clutters the page. Another problem is the image. Images do not belong on nav bars. Another problem is the headings. It is POV to say that CS is the basis for creationism, since creationism came first. What makes you think that anyone would find this list of word associations to be convenient? Bensaccount 03:50, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
I removed it from the template because I'm confident this is not the place for statements; and I'm assuming pseudoscience will remain in the article(s) listed. - Roy Boy 800 01:00, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
It appears I've deleted the "Creationism2" template. This was not my purpose but it happened due to my clumsy computer skills. What I tried was to remove the box from "Flat Eath Society" article. A message I sent to the Flat Earth discussion is below (with some typos corrected).
---
Sorry if I caused unwanted trouble with the "Creationism2" template. My purpose was to remove the box from the Flat Earth article -- not to delete the template itself. Sorry if the latter happened.
Now, because it seems I don't have the computer skills myself, I strongly suggest someone to remove the box if I didn't succeed in the proper way.
The reason for this is quite clear. Although Flat Earthers mostly are creationists, the opposite is not the case. As mentioned in the article itself, the view of flat Earth is somewhat a ridicule. I'm not willing to speculate why the box had been placed on such a notable and important place, but nevertheless it gives the impression that creationism and even intelligent design are among jokes comparable to flat Earth.
I'm well aware that many naturalists and evolutionists personally think that way, but on my opinion no neutral view supports this. Firstly, the number of supporters of creationism anf flad Earth differ with a factor of four powers of ten, or so. Secondly, and more importantly, the supposed flat Earth is something that is contrary to everyday observations that almost anyone can make.
For prehistoric events, most often there are more or less some indirect clues, often to different directions, but the direct observation is beyond human perspective. Although some models combine better with the indirect evidence, no-one has to play fool and think contrary of what is seen today.
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Flat_Earth_Society"
This template is used by articles outside of the ones mentioned in the template. I'm note sure what common procedure is, but shouldn't the template contain links to all articles? Or shouldn't there be a project page in which all relevant pages are linked? Should we not put a link to [8] in the template to help people find all creationism related articles? I understand the template needn't be comprehensive, but shouldn't something tie the creationism articles together?
Should we perhaps link to [[Category:creationism]]? -- Ec5618 18:15, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
...was removed from the template. Why? — ciphergoth 18:08, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
While certainly many creationists revel in this idea, it is not part-and-parcel to creationism as a subject. In general, creationism derives from creation (theology) not from any sort of philosophical concern over proofs of the existence of god. Teleological argument may be appropriate for the Intelligent Design template, but creationism as a bigger tent doesn't necessarily ground itself in William Paley or his watchmaker. -- ScienceApologist 15:49, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I've made some appearance changes to match it to Template:Intelligent Design and Template:Evolution3, which it shared some pages with. Notably, I upped the width so it plays nicely with being combined into one box. Adam Cuerden talk 05:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm relatively new here, and am not entirely up to speed on all the proper nomenclature in these talk pages, but I'm hoping to bring up a matter which I hope will help improve the quality of the article through a matter of clarification. Before I continue, let me say a couple things about what I'm not advocating. My purpose here is not to argue that ID succeeds as a theory, or that it deserves a hearing in public schools. None of my remarks below are intended to give any defense of ID or evolutionary theory, but to seek to maintain some important distinctions, lest we allow cultural momentum to distort the substance of what Intelligent Design is.
I've read some of the works by leading thinkers on both polar ends of the spectrum on this issue. It's not uncommon to see talented and prominent professionals speak with confidence about their persuasions on metaphysical/spiritual matters while also expounding on details that pertain to their actual field of scientific study. Many of these professionals think it appropriate to publish popular books and articles allowing their limited areas of specialty to support their broader philosophical views (and presumably allow philosophical precommitments to regulate what we do in--or even call--science). While this is standard fare in popular works, I suggest the quality of their professional work would suffer if this was done regularly in professional scientific literature. We might rightly infer that in such cases, the introduction of religious or areligious references are out-of-place, since they do nothing to enhance our understanding of the actual topic one is supposed to be addressing. We might likewise do well to separate the two categories when devoting articles to the one and excluding the other.
For the purpose of this writing, I'm going to assume now that Creationism is indeed an offshoot of theology. Even if there were some data that might incidentally be in corroboration with what Creationists agree with, what is unique to Creationism is three-fold: First, it purports to give an account of where matter itself came from (hence, the term Creation); secondly, its dependence on a sacred text to provide the parameters which define the enterprise throughout its pursuit from conception to outcome; finally, all forms of creationism identifies a deity of some kind as the creator.
So the perennial question we might ask is what, precisely, warrants associating Intelligent Design with Creationism? Well, as I survey culturally iconic figures that make this association, I notice we have a judge, the ACLU, bloggers, social critics, activist organizations, and even some antithetical scientific thinkers weigh in on the matter.
But to my knowledge, none of the leading thinkers in the Intelligent Design movement identify ID as a form of Creationism, as construed above. This is neither done explicitly, or by implication--whereby the strict aims of what ID is intended to address are substantially indistinguishable with that of Creationism. While Creationism deals directly with the question of ultimate origin, Intelligent Design limits its scope to examining the characteristics of pre-existent matter -- to say nothing of how matter itself came into being in the first place. Intelligent Design examines certain already existing components of nature and asks whether particular phenomena in natural systems display features not adequately explained by the current naturalistic paradigm, but instead bear a level of specified complexity normally attributed to objects we know to have an intelligent cause. And unlike creationism, ID relies on no sacred text to govern how any outcome must look like, or what the origin of the designer must be.
While ID proponents do write regularly in popular literature about the relationships and implications their ideas have on their religious worldviews, I see no substantial difference between them and the professional thinkers who regularly do so on behalf of their irreligious viewpoints. But we do not find it acceptable to link articles to atheism from Wikipedia's Evolutionary Biology pages, and for good reason: they would only serve to obfuscate the actual issues at hand rather than enhancing it. I think it would be entirely appropriate and acceptable to quote leading thinkers from the skeptical side to show that some do, in fact, make that association, but in the absence of any good reason to discount the distinctions I've presented above, may I suggest that ID be removed from the "Creationism" category?
Respectfully, Daniel.--—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.204.42.135 ( talk • contribs) 19:03, 21 July 2007
There are several reasons to regard intelligent design as creationism:
It does not matter what public face intelligent design supporters want to present to the world. Their own propaganda, communications to their base, arguments etc betray their true beliefs and agendas. It is like Muslims claiming that Osama bin Laden is not a terrorist and never took credit for any terrorist attacks, ever and no muslim ever was involved in a suicide bombing. It does not matter what they claim; what is the evidence? So the Discovery Institute can claim anything it likes; we are not here to be a shill for them but to state the facts as we are able to determine and verify them. If you want more detail, just see the article intelligent design.-- Filll 20:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
<undent> An editor was objecting to categorizing intelligent design as creationism. And several of us were explaining why this was appropriate. And I believe that having been educated, the editor decided not to push this agenda.-- Filll 01:41, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
The belief that the sum of all life in the world, the fact that the universe exits is be attributed to random chance in which nothing became something that formed the big bang is ludicrous. The idea that a "higher entity" created everything we see around us is also escapism and such beliefs hold us back. The proof that all living things change is irrefutable. The tectonic plates of the earths crust move and over very long times a certain land mass that was, say, in the equator is now at the south pole. The creatures that live in Antarctica would have had an ancestry that traced back to that time when the land mass was in the equator. Creatures that live in the equator often have less fur compared to others that inhabit artic regions. More fur means less loss of heat form the body and less fur equates to more loss. Black and white humans also show this trait. Black humans naturally inhabit places in which there is lots of sun light and the darker skin gives them some protection against ultraviolet light. Whites have lighter skin because they naturally inhabit darker regions like England. Sun light produces a vitamin in the human body which is required to produce healthy bones but too much light leads to cancer and skin damage. Darker skin stops more skin damage than lighter but inhibits this vitamin production.
So maybe god created us according to the environment in which we inhabited. But then take into account all the fossilized relics that have been discovered that have genetic links to us and other creatures but are slightly different from them. You are forced to realize that animals under go change in order to live in a certain environment. Those who don't realize this are ignorant or zealots of their faith. (Zealots are ignorant)
What I believe is that God created the light, the earth, carbon, helium, oxygen, hydrogen, lithium, and all the elements that make up our universe, and a code, similar to computer binary that was subject to change. More often than not that change is damaging. The organism with that change would die and the error would be paged. But every so often the change would be beneficial to that organism and it would thrive better than the others and pass it on to the next generation. And Gods hand guided this change to form modern man and through this process man gained knowledge and understanding of a world subject to change.
God, in any religion, defies logic as we know it. The fact that came down to earth him self (Christ) in order to better understand the existence he created is mind boggling in its own right. Such an entity is wise beyond us and beyond our comprehension. While I’ll admit belief in the existence of an omnipotent entity is counter productive, some things in the universe are beyond random chance. . Pathogen1 14:15, 28 July 2007 (UTC) 28/07/2007
Regarding the, ahem, argument about what "creationism" means, Antievolutionists and Creationists gives a brief and informative answer. "When the Origin of Species went on sale late in 1859, the term "creationist" commonly designated a person who believed in the special origination of a soul for each human fetus, as opposed to a traducianist, who believed that the souls of children were inherited from their parents. Although Darwin (in private) and his allies occasionally referred to their opponents as "creationists," for about seventy-five years after the publication of his book such adversaries were more typically called "advocates of creation" or, increasingly, "anti-evolutionists.".... It was not until 1929 that... the Seventh-day Adventist biologist Harold W. Clark, explicitly packaged Price’s new catastrophism as "creationism." In a brief self-published book titled Back to Creationism Clark urged readers to quit simply opposing evolution and to adopt the new "science of creationism," by which he meant Price’s flood geology. For decades to come various Christian groups, from flood geologists to theistic evolutionists, squabbled over which camp most deserved to use the creationist label. However, by the 1980s the flood geologists/scientific creationists had clearly co-opted the term for their distinctive interpretation of earth history" Looks like a good source for an update to the article, and other articles by him on that site are also useful....... dave souza, talk 17:32, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Any objections to said alternate opening line, given the overwhelming evidence, it can hardly be considered npov as it is in fact scientific fact, and a statement that creationism is in fact, wrong, is no more incorrect than a statement that any fictitious tale isn't true (i.e. harry potter, lord of the rings). Philc 20:18, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with ornis. If you want to contribute, take a look at some of our other articles which are in dire shape. This minor change will not fly, and will waste a huge amount of time in a huge fight. Meanwhile, we have dozens if not hundreds of other articles on this general topic that are in sad shape, or badly biased (usually towards creationist views). So have at it! -- Filll 13:19, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
<undent>Wrong that you may consider creationism to be, you can't add 'false' to the lead, and in any case, the worst you could say is that certain versions of creationism are unsupported by science (which it already does). You can't prove a negative, and God could be smart enough to create everything in seven six days, including a whole bunch of false evidence for evolution. Also, notice the opposition you are getting - other editors, dedicated editors don't think you should do so. Even were you working from policy,
there's enough to accept leaving the current version as is. Finally, the article is about a religious concept, so of course it's going to be 'biased' (more accurately, non-condemming) towards the religious interpretation. Post-finally, your talk page says you've retired - you may want to update if you're back to long-term editing.
WLU 17:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
“ | the only people who would reply to my post are those who do have a vendetta | ” |
(ri)The more I read this statement from Philc_0780, that harder I find it to believe that he is contributing to this discussion in good faith. The strong implication is that the original post was meant as a deliberate troll. The alternative interpretation, per WP:AGF, is that the editor genuinely believes that Creationism is false (although he has cited no scientific evidence that falsifies it) and also believes that any reasonable editor would agree. In this case, I concur with WLU and would suggest that in addition to WP:NPOV Philc undertakes a study of WP:V. Sheffield Steel talkers stalkers 14:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
<undent> Please read #Answers by Numbers and the linked source. The belief isn't falsified by science, it's simply outside science. Where the conflict arises is when "creationism" is redefined to demand that science should support the interpretation of empirical evidence as providing "proof" of that belief, as was essentially done by the YECs. The intelligent design question is essentially whether religious dogmatism can redefine science to support supernatural explanations, rather than these explanations being beyond the essentially secular scientific method as accepted by most believers in Creation. Please also read WP:NPOV and WP:NPOV/FAQ with care and detailed attention, and accept the requirement of WP:TALK that this page is for improving the article and not for getting on a soapbox. Unless there are early signs of positive efforts to propose improvements which comply with policies, this off-topic ramble will have to be deleted or archived. .. dave souza, talk 21:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to recommend to editors working on this article two books, not just to ass to the further reading list but as resources for editors to this article. Both are books by Philip Kitcher: Living With Darwin: Evolution, Design and the Future of Faith and Abusing Science: the Case Against Creationism. One was reviewed, and the other discussed, in an essay by H. Allen Orr in the most recent issue of The New York Review of Books. Orr is an evolutionary geneticist in the Biology Department of the University of Rochester; he has published in Science and Nature as well as other top peer-reviewed journals in evolutionary biology, so his credentials as a scientist are impeccable - and he argues that both of these books, while specifically polemics against creationism and ID, are also superb and accessible inroductions to the philosophy of science and evolutionary theory. Kitcher is himself the subjct of a Wikipedia article; he is a professor of philosophy (of science) who holds the Dewey Chair at Columbia University, and who has published on both creationism and sociobiology and has also published in a host of peer-reviewed journals. I have to say, I am especially impressed when a pracicing scientist heaps praise on a philosopher of science. Orr emphasizes that in addressing creationists Kitcher is really trying to lay out as clearly as possible the essence of scientific thought and the history of the development of evolutionary theory, as well as the history of creationist thought (including but not limited to ID). I do not have these books, but if any editors here has access to them they might provide us with helpful ideas not just of themes we might want to develop, but of ideas about how better to express certain ideas. I just read the review this week, and it really is an outstanding review, which is why I bring it up now. I would think that even advocates of creationism would want to consult these books - if they are interested in developing arguments to support creationism; a good argument for creationism would be strengthened if it could respond to the argumnts in these books. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
With respect, we don't need to respoind to rossnixon's comment at all. Don't let him trick you into a meaningless tangential discussion about science. It does not matter whether the books are objective (inceed, our NPOV policy doesn't care about objectivity at all: it demands that different points of view be included, NPOV and by extension Wikipedia is agnostic about truth and objectivity and these questions should never enter into a discussion about how to improve an article) - rossnixon's point is based either on a well-intentioned misunderstanding of Wikipedia and its policies, or is just a red-herring meant to disrupt work on imporving the article. All that matters is that they are two books, both writen by a scholar with impeccable credentials, each published by a highly reputable academic press, bith well-reviewed by other scholars. Objectivity is irrelevant What is important is that this article include verifiable views from reliable sources. These books meet those criteria. Rossnixon's ignorance about science is not the issue (we will never succeed in teaching him what science is); the only thing that matters when discussing how to improve an article is his ignoraance of Wikipedia policies. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:53, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Thoughts on the new section? The main is a redlink.
Biblical Reality teaches that there are no “creation accounts” in Genesis, and that “Moses Didn’t Write About Creation”. What is actually being said is “Moses wrote about Restoration”. Before the advent of “Biblical Reality”, no faction of creationism could explain both the “first day” of Moses and the “Fourth Day”, all being 24-hr days, without either denying literal interpretation or “redefining” the scriptures.
WLU 01:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Main was also recently speedy deleted. WLU 06:23, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I have just removed a similar section from Old Earth creationism by the same author, citing "non-notable, original research, self-promotion". -- Robert Stevens 11:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
It is a tribute to the ingenuity of the human imagination. You take a book that has 4 separate creation accounts, 2 of which are in Genesis and different and you get interpretations like:
and so on. People are amazing...-- Filll 22:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I was shocked to read about the 4 accounts in a book in the library. I might take it out again and then include it in the article. The other 2 accounts are not in Genesis.-- Filll 17:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
We currently start with Creationism is the belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe were created in their entirety by a deity or deities (typically God), whose existence is presupposed. But is creationism really that (rather general) belief, or is it only the movement that promotes this view in opposition to other alternatives? Could we e.g. move to Creationism is the expressed belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe were created in their entirety by a presupposed deity or deities (typically God). The term is in particular used to denote the movement that promotes this world view over naturalistic explanations of origins? -- Stephan Schulz 07:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I have a few fairly religious Christian friends and relatives who still shudder at the thought of being called "Creationsts". I don't know if the term is still used with such a broad meaning as we imply in the first sentence. -- Stephan Schulz 20:12, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
The problem with this entire field, is that certain terms have acquired certain meanings and connotations, depending on time and location. So there is a huge confusion in the US about what the term "Christian" actually refers to, some of this done on purpose. To some, Catholics are not Christians, and Mormons are not Christians, Methodists are not Christians, Quakers are not Christians, etc. The only people that can call themselves Christians (to some) are those who subscribe to biblical literalism and even deny things like the golden rule (i.e., "love your neighbor as yourself"). The more you talk to people, the more you discover that many groups have their own very narrow definitions and want to claim certain terms for themselves, or apply certain terms to other groups. A similar thing is going on with the term "creationist" in the US at the moment, which is more likely to mean someone who believes that the bible is literally true, that the earth/universe is 6000 years old, that the earth/universe was made in 6 literal 24 hour days, that evolution and/or science is equivalent to atheism, communism, fascism, Nazism, racism, devil worship etc. So some terms acquire negative or positive connotations which they did not have before, in a process called pejoration or a euphemism treadmill (or a dysphemism treadmill). Under these circumstances, some might be uncomfortable about being called a creationist, or an evolutionist or a Christian etc.-- Filll 20:52, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Well we clearly know what side of the fence you are on, given that you use the term "evolutionist" which is currently only characteristic of creationists and their ilk (speaking of language with negative connotations...). And this is not the place to debate evolution or creationism themselves, but of course many ordered structures are just created by the laws of nature, and we have literally millions of examples. You are free to call the laws of nature an input of information if you like. Even of action by an intelligent being. Others are free to characterize it in a different way, and they do. However, you are not free to impose by force your views on others. Are we understood? As for some text supporting my claims above (with some references), consider:
It is claimed that many perceived social ills like crime, teen pregnancies, homosexuality, abortion, immorality, wars, etc. are caused by a belief in evolution. [1] R. Albert Mohler, Jr., President of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, wrote August 8, 2005 in National Public Radio's forum, "Taking Issue", that "Debates over education, abortion, environmentalism, homosexuality and a host of other issues are really debates about the origin — and thus the meaning — of human life.... Evolutionary theory stands at the base of moral relativism and the rejection of traditional morality". [2] [3] Creationist Ken Ham likens evolution to a horde of termites, weakening society's foundation. In Why Won't They Listen?, Ham suggests that "evolutionary termites" are responsible for pornography, homosexual behavior and lawlessness. He also writes, "I'm not saying that evolution is the cause of abortion or school violence. What I'm saying is that the more a culture abandons God's word as the absolute authority, and the more a culture accepts an evolutionary philosophy, then the way people think, and their attitudes, will also change." [4] Former Texas Republican Representative Tom DeLay claimed that the Columbine school shootings were caused by the teaching of evolution. DeLay is quoted as stating that "Our school systems teach the children that they are nothing but glorified apes who are evolutionized [sic] out of some primordial soup." [5] Henry M. Morris, engineering professor and founder of the Creation Research Society and the Institute of Creation Research, claims that evolution was part of a pagan religion that emerged after the Tower of Babel, was part of Plato's and Aristotle's philosophies, and was responsible for everything from war to pornography to the breakup of the nuclear family. [6]
Rev. D. James Kennedy of The Center for Reclaiming America for Christ claims that Darwin was responsible for Adolf Hitler's atrocities. In D. James Kennedy's documentary, and the accompanying pamphlet with the same title, Darwin’s Deadly Legacy, Kennedy states that "To put it simply, no Darwin, no Hitler." In his efforts to expose the "harmful effects that evolution is still having on our nation, our children, and our world." Kennedy also states that, "We have had 150 years of the theory of Darwinian evolution, and what has it brought us? Whether Darwin intended it or not, millions of deaths, the destruction of those deemed inferior, the devaluing of human life, increasing hopelessness." [7] [8] Discovery Institute fellow Richard Weikart has made similar claims. [9] Kent Hovind of Creation Research Evangelism blames the Holocaust, World War I, the Vietnam War, World War II, Stalin's war crimes, communism, racism, socialism and Pol Pot's Cambodian killing fields on evolution, as well as the increase in crime, unwed mothers, and other social ills. [10] Kent Hovind's son Eric Hovind has now taken over the family business while his father is in prison, and claims that evolution is responsible for tattoos, body piercing, premarital sex, unwed births, sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), divorce and child abuse. [11]
However, this is probalby a pointless exercise, since I am sure your mind is made up. And I am certain that if you were the least bit honest with yourself or objective, you would know what I said was correct.-- Filll 17:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
We are supposed to discuss the article itself, not the subject of the article. And if you want to avoid offense, I would be very cautious about use of the words " evolutionist" or "evolutionary". In some contexts and in some places, they can give offense, for a variety of reasons. I am completely confused about your arguments. Some say evolution leads to all these ills. Some say it is equivalent. It hardly matters, to be honest, in my opinion. You are free to split hairs, however you like. Creationists do not agree with each other on these matters, in my experience. All such claims basically amount to the same thing; that "evolution is a bad bad thing and an evil monster that we have to drive away with pitchforks and torches". And one way to do it is to identify it or associate it in one way or another with a huge range of other social and political ills. And what some creationists call "evolution" encompasses a huge amount of material in science like:
and so on and so forth. So depending on the type of creationist a person is, they can end up rejecting a huge fraction of science in a frantic attempt to preserve biblical literalism, subscribed to by only a teeny tiny narrow minority of Christians and Jews, and questioned even by Thomas Aquinas and many others since then. And maybe you are not "forcing" your opinions on anyone. I do not know. All I know is that there is an immense movement in the United States to take tax money collected by force from people of all faiths and no faith, and then distribute it to creationists to teach narrow religious views of a tiny group of religious sects to children of all backgrounds and all faiths. And this is inappropriate, in my view and the view of the courts. And so therefore, when I state my views, I often will state my position on these issues. That is, you are free to believe what you want, and so am I. And I will not force you to believe what I believe. And you will not force me to believe what you believe. And in addition, in secular institutions, we will use and promote the use of our best secular knowledge. We will not promote religious agendas, since I do not live under the Taliban, and I do not think you do either. Clear?-- Filll 19:18, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I updated the Catholic position. The original source was somewhat in conflict with the actual views expressed by the Church. I included a fork to evolution and the catholic church for a better discussion of the issue. ( Runwiththewind 14:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC))
I edited that this main and basic belief which leads into the article, is not something restricted to creationists, but that they belong in a broader group of people with this very ancient traditionalist worldview that life is created. And this is a broad general basic very traditional outlook on life on which the movement in whole is based on. I am not saying the movement in itself is traditional, indeed they themselves deny this. All i am saying is that the general point of their belief system is based on tradition, which some of their leading figures claim is strict and pure science-- יודל 18:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
<undent> To assert a "fact", you must comply fully with WP:A, WP:RS and WP:NPOV, and explain yourself coherently in English. Revealed truth and partisan primary sources won't do. .. dave souza, talk 20:07, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
<undent> - User:Yidisheryid, please ensure that you "fix the language" in talk pages and don't try making unsourced edits to articles. I've challenged your premise above, and will continue to do so until you VERIFY clearly what you're claiming, at which point we'll then have to consider the arguments presented for WP:NPOV generally, and undue weight in particular.. . .. dave souza, talk 21:20, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
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