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I've tried to adhere to the Wiki nature in this morning's edit of Creationism. I accept that the dominant view is anti-Creationist and content myself merely with labeling the critique as such. I have restored much of the original points (as well as memory serves) and pointed out that objections to Creationism are mainly against Sudden Creationism. The argument against ID seems (here, at least) to be only that it's a religious tenet rather than a scientific hypothesis.
My aim is to summarize and highlight the various arguments, rather than to put forth my own view as right. This is my best effort at achieving NPOV, and I'm sure that any unconscious bias which has slipped through will be boldly corrected by others. -- User:Ed Poor
What's the ? It is not mainstream Christian theology; I'm sure that the Catholic and the majority of Presbyterian denominations, for example, do not accept Creationism. Acceptance of Creationism is highly related to biblical literalism; many conservative (as opposed to fundamentalist) Christians do not believe in biblical literalism. GregLindahl
I think you're confusing Christian theology with theology in general, and U.S. Christian theology with general Christian theology. Most other world theologies accept evolution, and most Christian theologies outside the U.S. do, as well. -- User:Dmerrill
If you want the Creationism page to be an argument that Creationism in all its forms is wrong or unscientific, why not say so and be done with it? Otherwise, let's make an Evolution Debate page.
I think when presenting a theory, we should explain why its adherents believe it.
Also, I think there's an attempt to identify Sudden Creationism with Creationism. It's not the clear majority view, according to the only survey I ever heard of. Surely the omission of Intelligent Design is not a deliberate attempt to deceive.
Come on, gentlemen. Where's that NPOV you're always talking about?
The number of people who believe something has not historically had much correlation with whether that thing was true.
Even something so easily falsifiable as Aristotle's theory of motion was once believed by the vast majority of authorities. The trouble is, no one before Galileo ever bothered to check it.
(It turned out that sufficiently dense bodies fall with a speed that is proportional to how long they've been falling -- not how heavy they are. So a five-pound cannonball and a ten-pound cannonball hit the ground at the same time, while other objects such as a feather reach will have already reached their terminal velocities.)
Sorry, I meant no disrepect to Aristotle. No doubt the intellectuals in the Roman Catholic Church misunderstood him. It was really the medieval interpretation of Aristotle's views that I meant. I should have mentioned Galileo's foray into church politics -- how a committee not under the pope's direct control hassled Galileo for reporting some of his astronomical discoveries. I'm no longer sure what any of this has to do with creationism. We need a topic called the quest for truth or something like that. -- User:Ed Poor
The names of the theories aren't what are regarded as meaningless, are they? Perhaps crucial elements of the theories are regarded as meaningless. (E.g., perhaps no good sense can be given to the notion of creation ex nihilo.) In any case, probably the more important thing to mention is that the theories, insofar as they do seem to be meaningful at all, seem to be unsupported and unverifiable. (I can maintain that the theories are unverifiable but, disagreeing with verificationism, believe them to be more-or-less meaningful--just false. Far from all scientists, theologians, and philosophers of science are verificationists.)
How about: "A very large ['vast' pours salt in the wound] majority of practising scientists, theologians and philosophers of science believe scientific creationism and intelligent design theory [identifying these as 'neologisms' in this context is to dismiss them]--terms many of them cannot use without shuddering--to be untenable, either because they are scientifically unsupportable and unverifiable, or because they are outright nonsense." -- User:LMS
In reference to the following:
One can carry the "lack of bias" mantra too far. If Wikipedia didn't officially endorse evolutionary science, it would be derelict in its duty to educate. Its only obligation to non-bias is to accurately report that some people choose not to believe in evolution. It should also not call those people idiots, or otherwise make derogatory comments about them (the word "nonsense" is probably a bit strong, though I happen to believe that, and I like the rest of LMS's phrasing). But it most definitely should report accurately that evolution, as endorsed with near unanimity among educated biologists, accurate describes the biological world, and that creationism does not. The article on Numerology is a good example: it clearly shows why it doesn't make sense, accurately identifies it as nonscientific, and merely reports that some people believe it. --LDC
Ed: The creationist view isn't science -- its religion. Religion has no place in a science class -- religion belongs in the religion class (if the school has one.)
-- User:Ed Poor
And besides, suppose the majority of students believed that the Earth was a flat disk, and said that believing that the earth was semi-spherical was against there religion. Should we teach flat-earthism as equally valid as round-earthism? Or suppose they thought the theory of relativity was a lie (something which, by the way, a lot of Nazis did) or that it was against their religion -- does it follow that we should teach the view that the theory of relativity, and not denigrate it as false? Suppose they thought that mechanistic physics (as in Gallileo, Descartes, Newton, etc.) was the work of the devil, and that the universe was really teleological (as in Aristotle) -- should we teach this also?
The fact is that creationism is rejected by almost all persons in the relevant scientific fields. Evolution, on the contrary, is accepted by almost all persons in these fields as scientific facts. Schools should teach the scientific facts according to expert opinion. If some students disapprove of science on religious grounds -- that is there problem. -- User:SJK
I don't think that what I asked carries the lack of bias policy too far. I very strongly disagree with your stated view that Wikipedia would be derelict in its duty to educate by not officially endorsing evolutionary science. In fact, I really wonder why you say this. Insofar as education includes the teaching of values, as it does and should (I think), I don't think that Wikipedia should engage in education; it should engage, rather, in reporting. Compare these two claims of yours:
The Numerology example doesn't illustrate what you want it to illustrate. The Numerology article does not state that Numerology is false. It states that it is nonscientific, which (I am supposing) is uncontroversial. In precisely the same way, I think we should not claim that evolution accurately describes the biological world and creationism does not. There are many good reasons, that we can review if you wish, that it is far preferable to say, instead: most scientists embrace evolutionary theory and reject creationism. This gets the idea across.
I don't think encyclopedias should be in the business of doing anything other than stating facts that sane, thinking people--among whom I would include, yes, creationists--can agree upon. If not on the subject matter itself, then they can usually agree on how competing views are characterized; or at least they can agree to allow each side to be permitted to characterize its own view sympathetically and to criticize other views. When an article becomes contentious, I think we should "go meta."
Why should there be any resistance to this? I'm very curious to know. Do you want to have a (another) debate about this on neutral point of view? -- User:Larry Sanger
P.S. I find your resistance to the word "nonsense" puzzling, and it indicates that, perhaps, you aren't entirely understanding the nonbias policy the way I understand it. I think it is all-important that the claim of nonsense is attributed to someone, rather than asserted to be the case by the author of the article itself. When it is attributed to someone, it immediately becomes uncontroversial and straightforwardly fact-stating (no matter how irritating to creationists). -- User:LMS
Sorry, but strong disagreement with the above. Neutrality is about stating facts rather than opinions, and the existence of evolution is as close to a fact as we are ever going to get. Certainly it is going to be taken as such on virtually every biology page written, because the phylogeny of organisms is important, and it would be an unbelievable headache to have to qualify it in every case to avoid offending a minority of people who are wrong. I say giving fair treatment to anything so unanimously decreed as false by workers in the field is silly and makes a mockery of the concept of objectivity. Or should we also make allowances for the flat earth hypothesis on our geography and astronomy pages?
As for creationists still being thinking and sane people, well - yes, they probably are. But that doesn't mean that the hypothesis is any less ridiculous. Aristotle believed in physics that can be disproved with a bowl and some water. And what will we do with the views of historical revisionists? -- JG
Perhaps--consider the possibility a moment--it is possible, in most articles that elaborate evolutionary theory and processes, simply to use a few words that imply that the claims in question are the views and the results of work by scientists. Then creationists will have nothing to do complain about.
You say "neutrality is about stating facts rather than opinions." Well, that's a quick-and-easy way to put it. It is more accurate to say that, where there is significant disagreement on a point, then neutrality demands that the disagreement be fairly characterized. Be careful to understand what this does and does not imply. It does imply that evolutionary science not be stated as fact and creation science as obviously false (rather, it implies that these views be described as being held by certain groups of people, and then the public can draw their own conclusions; you don't mind that they draw their own conclusions, do you?). It does not imply that, whenever you mention anything about evolutionary theory, you say something to the effect that creationists disagree. It does not imply that you outright assert, "Evolution is just a hypothesis." This too would be hugely controversial. You would be fully in your rights to say that most scientists fully believe evolution to be a very well-substantiated theory, as well-substantiated as many less controversial theories.
In general, and most importantly, this principle does not imply that our articles have to look like we think that evolutionary theory and creationism are equally weighted, and we (Wikipedia article authors) can't make up our minds. If you think that's what it implies, you don't understand the principle. Don't you think it's possible not to take an official stand, and yet still very strongly be in favor of one of the views? Of course it is. Why would you resist doing this, then, when you can (after all) say that most respected scientists reject creationism? It seems you want to cow creationists and people whose minds are not made up--as silly as they might seem to you and me--into believing what you believe. That's never the right way to go about it. Is there something wrong with letting people draw their own conclusions?
The Wikipedia articles on controversial subjects are not likely to change any minds. The kooks will go on believing kooky things, the rational people will go on being rational, and we can take enormous pride in reporting accurately on the situation.
As to historical revisionists, sometimes they're right, eh? And even when they're not, sometimes their views need to be reported--if only as a fascinating sociological phenomenon. -- User:LMS
The problem is that evolution is not controversial, not among anyone except the misinformed and those with an agenda. I honestly think that continual treatment of evolution as if it is the consensus of an extreme majority of scientists, rather than fact, is misleading. Do you think that it is a good idea to prefix every page with such a statement? "Most scientists now believe that Calcium has an atomic weight of 40.078..." It's silly, but if not, then topics like evolution are going to appear strongly singled out as questionable.
Historical revisionists are probably more important even. Yes, they can be interesting, but statement of their opinions as anything even resembling potential fact isn't just wrong, it is potentially offensive. To take the extreme example, even if it invokes Godwin's law against myself, what do you suppose would be the response if we said the holocaust was something widely considered to have occured by most historians, rather than something that occured? I'd consider that an awful legitamization of some of the worst opinions available. Or would you throw out such claims and keep those of other revisionists, less offensive but certainly no more valid? I say the best ground for decision is on merit; meritless arguments should not need consideration, unless we want to pretend all of reality is an opinion. And those probably include young earth creationism.
I'm with Josh here. Evolution is not controversial within the scientific community. As someone who has spent the best part of ten years researching creationism, I can attest that Creationists are not crazies or ignorant (far from it in many cases). However, in accordance with the views of 99% of theologians, scientists and philosophers, they are wrong. We should state so emphatically. To do otherwise is to be spineless. Evolution has traditionally been singled out among scientific areas and people are more likely to use accomodationist language so as to placate a vocal minority. This, I assure you, is contrary to the aims of any good project (particularly if it is haunted by the shades of the original Encyclopediestes). Evolution is a fact, natural selection is currently one of the few scientific mechanisms by which evolution can occur. Move on.
-- User:Jmlynch
Hear! Hear! I personally admire philosophers a great deal, study philosophy, and enjoy throwing the monkey wrench of doubt into common beliefs as much as anyone. But when philosophers and others go beyond rational skepticism to justify what are simply and clearly mistakes, one should throw at them what one personally believes to be a brick, and assuage one's conscience with the assurance that they are free to believe otherwise. --LDC
I'll reply later, but I would like to see someone reply, dispassionately, to my arguments. I had some, if you didn't notice. You're all rational people; you should be able to appreciate my efforts. -- User:LMS
I think we all agree with your arguments, and even with your value judgement that Wikipedia articles should be fact-stating and unbiased (two very independent goals). I think our disagreements here are with (1) the standard by which we decide that something is a fact, and (2) the extent of implied bias in fact-stating prose. There is no such thing as a fact without a standard by which it is judged to be a fact--even simple observational statements like "Fred claims that grass is green" imply that someone at some point judged this to be a fact because he observed Fred saying it (thus "direct observation" being the standard), and might be argued by someone. I happen to think "agreed upon with near unanimity by persons educated in the field" is a sufficient criterion for factualness. Sure, that will occasionally require us to change when some new discovery upsets an established fact, but so what? Any standard will require change--so why not choose one that's useful. Even your stricter standard of "totally uncontroversial" is no guarantee against future change.
Further, one can easily propagandize by stating only facts. A full page of "Creationists believe that...because..." with no reference to contradictory evidence or any other claim is clearly a propaganda piece, even though it happens to be fact-stating. The goal of eliminating bias requires more than merely being fact-stating. It also requires us to judge the rhetorical effect of an article, and to add rebutting facts where needed. I also believe that it is fundamentally impossible to eliminate all bias, and the all readers of any purportedly-factual article should understand that all authors have biases, and read in that context.
I hold the additional value judgments that Wikipedia should be lucid and useful. I believe that being overly afraid of bias sometimes compromises those goals, by cluttering articles with reportage on clearly useless beliefs held by a few minorities. This latter is certainly open to argument. Yes, an article specifically about Creationism (which is by its very nature a controversial belief) should probably stick to making claims about who said what, how many believe what, and how such beliefs compare to other scientific and theological beliefs. Reporting on a controversy as a controversy is a worthwhile thing for an encyclopedia to do. The articles should also point out arguments on both sides, but we should further report what are actual arguments and what are simply unsupported claims, because that is useful. Even the article on evolution should probably mention that there are a few people who choose to dispute it, and point to the article on Creationism, though it should otherwise be written simply and clearly by treating it as a the ordinary uncontroversial fact it is.
General articles on biology, on the other hand, should simply treat evolution as uncontroversial, because no serious biologist disagrees, and failure to do so compromises understanding of the subject. Articles about radiocarbon dating or tree rings should not be cluttered with an unnecessary reference to the fact that a few folks happen to believe that God placed all of the old rocks and trees here 6000 years ago, and is just trying to confuse us. --LDC
Can someone tell me where the matter involved in the Big Bang came from? If not, you will have to cut creationism in one stripe or color or another, some slack. All creationism is not biblical literalism. It is, however, in every case, an effort to arrive at a rational answer which science has so far not been able to provide ie, where everything came from. This is not Evolution/Talk, but Creationism/Talk. As something better than half the world populace embraces some kind of creationist explanation for the beginning of things, then we are not talking about appeasing a vocal minority here. We are talking about acknowledging what we don't know - the first step to finding out...
The simple belief that the world as it exists was created by a supernatural being is not what we are talking about here. The word "creationist" is never used to mean that; the word means denial of biological evolution, and that's what we're talking about. What you describe is merely Theism. --LDC
Let's get this straight once and for all (I have to do this with students every semester). Firstly, the Big Bang or any other theory of cosmogenesis has nothing to do with evolutionary thinking. Cosmologists could theorize about the universe and it would not dent the theory of evolution one bit. Secondly, and almost most importantly, creationists don't really care about cosmology - it's the proposition that humans evolved that creates problems for them (a proposition that is indepndant of cosmology). Lastly, theories of abiogenesis also have nothing to do with evolution. Evolutionary theory explains how the diversity of life on Earth came to it's present state, not how life got here and not how the universe got here.
Creationism is not an 'effort to arrive at a rational answer'. Rationality has nothing to do with it. As any theologian will tell you, the project of rationalizing the existence of a creator has fallen into disrepute for various reasons. Creationists can believe whatever they like about the history of life, but that does not mean they make scientific statements.
-- User:Jmlynch
Jim I am talking about creationism, not about evolution (pro or con). Did you notice that? Humans arrive at answers through reason. Use of reason = 'effort to arrive at a rational answer.' Let's get this straight once and for all - creationism, as a holding, is not necesarily either pro- or anti-evolution. That is the area where we see the most frequent fireworks and high-profile clashes, but please quit cofusing the two. Again - this is creationism/Talk.
'effort to arrive at a rational answer' = "I can see what caused z; y caused it. I can see what caused y; x caused it. I have investigated until I am blue in the face, and cannot tease out of the universe what caused a. Maybe whatever caused it is not natural, but super-natural. Maybe that's why I can't get at it." This may not be scientific method, but it is how people rationalize. Ie, it is an effort to arrive at rational answer.
This is where creationism as a subject comes from. Then we later on down the road get into such things as oral tradition, legends, myths, scriptures, and other means of passing down the stories about the supernatural. Never proved nor disproved, neither provable nor disprovable by scientific means, they are, by definition, unscientific. Now there are some parts of this tradition which seem to run afoul of scientific evidence. The most notable of these in recent time involves timescale of this planet and origin of species. When the scientist points this out to the dyed-in-the-wool hardline fundamental biblical literalist, the irresistible force meets the immoveable object. At the same time, bits and pieces of biblical history are verfied by archaeology daily. So, "See! The Bible is the infallible word of God!" and the scientist cringes.
BUT it is not necessarily the case that unscientific = wrong, any more that it is the case that proof of bible history a = proof of the whole bible.
To say that creationists believe that someone created things in the beginning is not to say that they beleive, 1-for-1, that SCIENCE in its infinite wisdom, ultimate arbiter of all human knowledge, is wrong. It is to say - "we believe these extra-scientific facts to be true." And who is to gainsay them?
When writing about evolution, that other topic, explain what theories it encompasses.
When writing about creationism, explain what theories it encompasses.
When writing about cosmologies, mention creationism. It happens to be one such.
Why is it necessary to flay the creationist? Has someone here disproven that a supreme influence, possibly an intelligent one, created the universe? Has someone read the report of a researcher who has? I think not. It's unfalsifiable. So it's unscientific. That does not make it wrong, or even irrational. "The geologic record does not support a literal biblical version of planetary time scale and origin of species." So how does that invalidate creationism as an overall subject?
LMS - I am with you 100%
and...
Blatantly stealing from Webster:
Main Entry: cre·a·tion·ism Pronunciation: -sh&-"ni-z&m Function: noun Date: 1880
Hey LDC - how do mean creationism is "never" used to mean that the world as it exists was created by a supernatual being?
OK, then, describe that as another sense of the word. The most common meaning of the word is as your definition above describes it: that various forms of life were created, as opposed to the belief that they evolved from a single earlier form. This is what a newspaper or magazine would generally mean when they describe someone as a "creationist writer" or something. If you choose to also use the word to mean mere theist, or to think of creationism as cosmology rather than biology, I suppose you're free to do so, but that's a second sense of the word, and perhaps separate articles should treat them as such. --LDC
If webster and I are wrong as to what the word means, then we'd better re-write the wikipedia article to reflect that creationism is only anti-evolutionism and nothing else.
The defense rests. You guys divvy up creationism into different articles however you want. maybe there should be an article biology/creationism (how's that for an oxymoron?) and another (which is the branch under which I created this one) cosmology/creationism arrows pointed to see each other, see theism, etc. I don't have the time right now. Damn - I just realized my cookies have somehow been cleared. This has been AyeSpy raving on above. Did not mean to hide my light under a bushel...
Then the article is misleading: the very first sentence says that creationism is the belief that a supreme being "created the physical universe and all life contained therein." Make up your mind: if you are a calling it a cosmology, then you can't include life, because life evolved long after the birth of the universe. If you want to include life, then call it a biology and take your lumps from the evolutionists. --LDC
Before I reply, let me just say that if we can agree that creationism as it stands, apart perhaps from the fact that the evolutionist insists on having the last word, is adequately unbiased, then our dispute is probably academic. So--on with the academic dispute!
I totally agree with your guys' attitude toward creationism. I think it's silly nonsense, too. Let's get that straight--we don't need to debate the merits of the theory (unless Bruce wants to do so). Moreover, I am probably the biggest commonsense realist and defender of rationality here. If you think my position is rooted in anything like relativism, that is excellent evidence that you don't understand my position and that you need to re-read what I've written more carefully. Jimbo, too, is a realist and defender of rationality, and he shares my view (in generalities, at least), as you can see on neutral point of view. Gee, how can that be? Read on.
Why on earth would I wanna do that, Larry? It's not like I advocate Creationism as such or anything. I only tried to point out that beating on the creationists is counter-productive. - AyeSpy (aka BrucieBaby)
1. Is evolution controversial? Yes--to the public at large, which will be reading Wikipedia. No--to scientists. For whom are we writing? The public at large--and scientists. (Perhaps that's what causes our problem here.) Lee says: "General articles on biology, on the other hand, should simply treat evolution as uncontroversial, because no serious biologist disagrees, and failure to do so compromises understanding of the subject." I think this is wrong on two counts. First, while evolution is uncontroversial among serious biologists, it is controversial among an alarmingly large portion of the general public; you do them and yourselves no favors by ignoring this controversy. Second, I see no reason to believe that recognizing that nonbiologists do not accept evolution as fact in any way "undermines understanding" of evolution. It doesn't even undermine your real goal, of course, which is to get people to accept evolution instead of getting caught up in idiotic creationist nonsense. In fact, the opposite is true: by failing to recognize the controversy, you essentially alienate the people you most want to teach. You would prefer indoctrination, it seems.
I think you may overestimate the controversy over evolution in the general public, but I agree with your point wholeheatedly - AyeSpy
2. Will we have to qualify every statement, or even every page, with a statement to the effect that it is the view of scientists? No, of course not. Why not? Because it's not controversial to anyone. Will we have to highlight discredited minority views as prominently as scientific fact? Of course not.
3. If we do describe scientific fact as what is accepted by all or nearly all scientists, then how are we misleading anyone? The question, again, is how? Have we encouraged anyone to believe anything other than what you want them to believe? Where's the downside you all fear?
4. Josh writes: "Historical revisionists are probably more important even. Yes, they can be interesting, but statement of their opinions as anything even resembling potential fact isn't just wrong, it is potentially offensive." Josh, I am not saying that historical revisionism should be presented as "anything even resembling potential fact." I am saying that the view should be described and appropriately attributed. How does that imply that the opinions will be presented as "anything even resembling potential fact"? Please bear in mind that we can reserve plenty of room for attributed explanations of why mainstream historians regard various kinds of historical revisionism as so much hokum. Our including such explanations is absolutely essential to having an unbiased encyclopedia, by the way.
5. Josh again: "To take the extreme example, even if it invokes Godwin's law against myself, what do you suppose would be the response if we said the holocaust was something widely considered to have occured by most historians, rather than something that occured? I'd consider that an awful legitamization of some of the worst opinions available." I would say that this is a very poor illustration (i.e., a "straw man") of my position. I imagine we should first clearly present what is generally believed about the Holocaust; then, perhaps quite far down in the article, we should have a paragraph or two that says something to the effect that the above is accepted (in generalities anyway) by all but a very small handful of trained historians, called Holocaust deniers and revisionists, blah blah blah, and explain the facts of that. This then attributes the claims about the Holocaust in a perfectly appropriate way and also mentions the fact that there is another (very minority) view. At the same time, we can state that most historians (most people) find such revisionism not only obviously false, but extremely morally repugnant. I hope I am making my position clearer now.
6. Is my position "spineless"? Jmlynch thinks so: "in accordance with the views of 99% of theologians, scientists and philosophers, they are wrong. We should state so emphatically. To do otherwise is to be spineless. ... This, I assure you, is contrary to the aims of any good project (particularly if it is haunted by the shades of the original Encyclopediestes)." Well, as a modern-day encyclopedist who has thought for many, many hours about this stuff (even before I started working on an encyclopedia), I can "assure you" that our doing what I ask is not in the slightest "spineless." Well, so much for mutual assurances; now to arguments. I think I can understand your reason for thinking so. Your assumption appears to be that, if we do not explicitly declare something to be true, then the reader can draw certain inferences about us--such as that we wish to placate creationists, or that we think creationism might be scientifically respectable, or that we might be creationists ourselves, etc., etc. Well, no. Reasonable people do not draw such inferences when presented with unbiased texts. You yourself, Jim, would not typically draw such inferences--you know better, of course. Suppose that a history text adopted a policy of failing to identify Nazi scum as the murdering bastards they were--but simply reported the facts about what they did. Would it be reasonable to assume that the text's author(s) might just be willing to admit the possibility that the Nazis were upstanding citizens doing a service to Europe?
Factually, I have read some very dry and "non-judgemental" accounts, practically devoid of adjectives. They still gave me the heebeejeebees and I never thought for a moment the author favored the Nazis. - AyeSpy
-- The facts about what they did, simply reported, permit most readers to judge for themselves that the Nazis were in fact "murdering bastard scum". Readers who make the judgement that the Nazis were in fact "upstanding citizens doing a service to Europe" would probably not be influenced by the editor's stating his/her personal opinion to the contrary. Arguably, we are insulting the reader by assuming he/she needs to be "pushed" to see things our way. -- 27 Septenber 2001.
7. Are being fact-stating and unbiased independent goals? No: in order to be unbiased, you must be fact-stating. In particular, you must be very clear about how you word the facts about what various majority and minority positions are. I contrast (in the present context--not when I'm talking metaphysics & philosophy of language, where 'fact' is a technical term) fact with opinion; opinions can be correct (and thus fact-stating), but one identifies something as a fact to emphasize that it is not under dispute, and one identifies something as an opinion in order to emphasize that it is under dispute. If, in our evolution article, we say that evolution is a "proven fact," while this is no doubt true (i.e., evolutionary theory has met ordinary standards of scientific evidence), the force of saying it is that evolution is simply not under dispute. Well, it is under dispute by your readers, guys. And (damnably) that's a fact. You aren't going to change their minds, or make the world otherwise any safer for rationality and science (which I love at least as much as you do), by explicitly averring that evolution is a fact and creationism is false. Actually, what you do is close off the avenues of discourse by doing so, setting up the less-rational folk in an antagonistic stance toward you, and make it harder to help them see the light. (Think of this as intellectual diplomacy.)
8. "Further, one can easily propagandize by stating only facts." Very true; that's why we shouldn't refer to my position as merely that articles should be fact-stating. They should be unbiased. I've explained what I mean by this in many different places many different times. "A full page of 'Creationists believe that...because...' with no reference to contradictory evidence or any other claim is clearly a propaganda piece, even though it happens to be fact-stating." I totally agree, and I will thank you for not setting up further caricatures of my view.
9. "I also believe that it is fundamentally impossible to eliminate all bias, and the all readers of any purportedly-factual article should understand that all authors have biases, and read in that context." But whenever we can identify bias, we can eliminate it--one way or another, and usually by going "meta." Give yourself some credit; people are creative; we can think of ways to eliminate bias when we spot it. (If you're still not convince, I suspect this is because you have a useless, impossibly-restrictive concept of bias. Personally, I prefer my concepts to be useful.)
10. "I believe that being overly afraid of bias sometimes compromises those goals, by cluttering articles with reportage on clearly useless beliefs held by a few minorities." Why think that articles will be cluttered with views held by minorities? If they are minority views, they will not be highlighted and ubiquitous in the same way that the majority views will be. That's as it should be. No one can reasonably complain.
My conclusion:
We should not impose our values on other thinking people. You are all liberal-minded people, I trust--not liberal politically, necessarily, but liberal in the sense that you want to free minds. I enjoin you to think carefully about the best way to achieve this. By failing to take stands on controversial issues, we aren't demonstrating weakness--in fact, we are demonstrating the strength of our faith in the minds of our fellow human beings. We should let them arrive at their own conclusions. We should trust them to use their own minds--just as you want to be trusted. More benighted souls than our enlightened selves will appreciate our stance and be more apt to listen when we hand down the truth.
I don't know if I can make my case any more completely...
No need to... - AyeSpy
Larry
Yes, well said. Perhaps my initial reaction comes from a different mindset about the "audience" of our work, since I generally think of encyclopedias as things used by schoolchildren, or adults looking for quick explanations of things outside their fields of expertise. Your view seems more appropriate to a collaboratively built growing record of facts, usable as a resource even for those with expertise. I certainly cannot argue with that vision, or your method for achieving it.
I would like to expand upon something you mentioned in passing that I think is important: you mentioned that an article might written largely as though uncontroversial, followed by a mention that the text above is believed by a majority, but controversial in that others believe something else (which is then linked to). I think this is a great method of doing it, and if using this technique meets with your approval I wholeheartedly endorse it as a way to write both lucidly and without bias. This seems appropriate for the article on the majority view, while the article on the minority view might be written more from the minority's own viewpoint (though careful to remain fact-stating).
Finally, I have encountered some places where I think minor amounts of open bias in an otherwise factual article is useful and not very controversial, so some simple method of doing those appropriately is needed. The specific example I have in mind is my pages on poker, which are full of opinions like "X makes a more interesting game than Y", or "game X is best played with betting structure Y", or "clay chips are easier to use than thin plastic ones", and so on. I originally wrote most of this text as a potential book which was full of my personal opinions. In the process of Wikifying it have removed opinions that were more significant and might be more controversial ("many casinos have rule X, which is stupid and counterproductive"), but those other little tidbits are the kind of thing I think someone learning the game of poker from a text such as this will want to know, and I think it's a waste of time to reword them all into "many poker players believe..." form. Of course if someone does object at some point (perhaps a manufacturer of plastic chips?), then rewording and pointing to other opinions might be necessary, but until then, I think they are clean and useful as they are. --LDC
Scientists believing in evolution as part of their work (basically all geologists and a good chunk of biologists) have made themselves easy targets for the religious loonies.
Evolution as taught and published in research papers, up to about 1980 was almost always a crock of unscientific shit, based more on bizarre ethical and religious ideas that hardly anyone belived, than on any observational basis, or any relationship with other well-founded scientific theories. That it took a bunch of loonies with no interest in science to put these failings on the agenda is very sad.
Since then evolutionary scientists have started to put their house in order. They still have a way to go, but some of the leading biologists and geologists are now researching evolution in a scientific way, and a genuine scientific theory of evolution is starting to emerge.
In teaching, especially at high school level, evolution is still stuck firmly in the 17th century. I really mean that. Although the name of Darwin is always mentioned, his ideas hardly ever are, and are never taken seriously, let alone some of the more modern ideas.
Maybe some of this should make it into the article (or maybe a different article about history of theory of evolution). Obviously it is not encyclopedia material as is, someone would have to do a complete rewrite from scratch.
I'm a big Steven Jay Gould fan. It's not so much because he's a brilliant geologist/biologist. Too be honest, I don't know whether he's brilliant, sort of good at it, or just plain incompetant. I like him more because he's the sort of person to write half a book about .400 hitters in baseball and essays on the Defenstration of Prague, and do a very fine job of it. I don't unswervingly trust everything he says, though, because I have no background and little comparable research to base it on. But the only mention I've ever heard him make of creationism is interesting, and I think it should be brought up here.
According to him, in The Panda's Thumb, I think it was, Creationism is an almost entirely American phenonmenon. He claims that most Europeans, even the most stringently religious, entirely embrace Evolution. John Paul II very nearly ( though not quite ) called evolution incontrovertible awhile ago. Since the only time I've ever been to Europe was a very bitter and unhappy one month stay in Oxford, with not much theological conversation, I was wondering whether or not this could be confirmed by someone who knows more about what they're talking about than myself. As for the rest of the world, I'd imagine that East Asia and India isn't very fertile creationist ground, and I've got no clue how Islam treats the issue.
I'd imagine that if the world view is significantly different than the American view, that probably would affect Wikipedia's policy in some way. The way I look at the matter, is that Darwinism, Natural Selection, or whatever you want to call it ( Evolution, which I've been unfortunately using so far, is a gross misnomer ) is a scientific law. Plain and simple. What goes up, must come down. The sun rises in the east. E equals MC squared, and species diversify according to rules of competition, climatic changes, genetics, and other such things that are well known. Those very few biologists who are strict creationist set out in the field of biology with the express intent of disproving evolution, and still have no basis for the 7 days nonsense. As for the original amino acids and divinely inspired puddles of goo, I just personally don't care whether or not god or anyone else got involved. But that's just me. User:Seckstu
Hear, hear. Creationism is a crackpot theory and should be presented as such as long as no shred of evidence can be presented. -- Pinkunicorn
The latter is entirely the wrong approach. Yes, creationism is a crackpot theory. No, it should not be presented as such, precisely because there are many people, some of them quite intelligent people who would like to make up their own minds for themselves, thank you very much, who disagree that it's a crackpot theory. It is not our job to convince the world of the truth. It is our job to present the facts about what the theory says, about what evidence there is (or is not) for the theory, about who promulgates it and their arguments and who opposes it and their arguments--and do all this in an unbiased fashion--and let people make up their own minds for themselves. If we do this, we will gain the respect of everyone, including the vast majority of those who think that creationism is a crackpot theory. -- User:LMS
I think this article should be clearly about (so-called) "scientific creationism". If I hear the word creationism, that is what pops into my mind. At present the article begins with a statement which many people who believe in evolution might agree with:
Also, I agree it is primarily an American phenomena, but it has spread to other parts of the world, e.g. Australia. I once had a substitute English teacher a few years ago (back when I was in high school) who was a "scientific" creationist. I also not so long ago saw ads posted up around Macquarie University (my uni) advertising lectures run by Answers-in-Genesis, an American creationist organization. But I'd still say it has a lot less support in Australia than in the US. -- User:Simon J Kissane
Moved this to /Talk 1 October 2001:
"[We need a way to sum up the situation that does not make it seem as though Wikipedia officially endorses evolutionary science, as the above does. (Whoever gets the last word seems the victor, eh?) Yes, that sounds ridiculous, but that's an illustration of lack of bias.]"
Moved from talk:Main_Page:
Don't know where this goes, since James Ussher doesn't have a page yet.... does anyone know if he's the guy that argue that God, when he created the Earth & all its animals and plants, etc., also created fossils of animals that no longer existed--created them *as* fossils, which had never been actual alive animals? Anyone know what that school of thought was called?
You're thinking of Philip Henry Gosse, who wrote a book called Omphalos: An Attempt to Untie The Geological Knot that expounded this idea. It crashed and burned in such a firestorm of criticism from both scientists and biblical literalists that I don't think it ever gained a groovy name a la uniformitarianism or catastrophism. Gosse called it "prochronism", but I don't think that got into the language. It's generally referred to as "Omphalos" after the book, or sometimes "in situ creation" -- User:Paul Drye
I'd like to pose a brief, very honest question concerning falsifiability as it relates to creationism and evolution. Based on the falsifiability article, I can easily agree that Creationism is about as falsifiable as the very existence of God, for about the same reasons. But how is evolution falsifiable? The experiment itself would have to last those same billions of years, wouldn't it? -- Wesley, a Christian who has wondered about this for a while......
Lots of potential observations would falsify evolution: for example, finding reverse-dated fossils (i.e., finding a fossil of a species dated older than the species from which it apparently descended); finding colorful sexual-selection markings on a species without vision (like blind fish and moles); finding a species so bizarre and different from all others that it has no plausible ancestor (say, finding one that doesn't use DNA/RNA); finding a species with a new complex major body organ or apparatus that is totally absent from its closest ancestors. That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but there are probably others. -- LDC
I think the issue is more delicate than that: Darwinism is ultimately a probabilistic theory. Things that increase fitness are more likely to happen, but they don't have to happen, nor are things that decrease fitness impossible to happen. There are virtually no rules in biology without exception, there are just some things that are vastly more likely than others, and for good reasons. Not all species are well-adapted: in fact, all species die out after a short while, so observing a particularly mis-adapted species could just mean that it is in the last phase of its life cycle.
Supporting or falsifying probabilistic theories is a difficult matter. If I show you a die, and claim it is loaded, how can you test this hypothesis without cutting the die in pieces? You have to roll it repeatedly, but what counts as a falsification? Statisticians come up with criteria of course, but they are not as hard and fast as one would like, and they are difficult to apply to biology, because Darwinism is not advanced enough predict the answer to a question like "How likely is it that a species living exclusively in water would have lungs as opposed to gills". If Darwinism could compute a probability, then the statistician could attempt to check it against the evidence. Darwinism is a qualitative, not even a quantitative, probabilistic theory at this point, and it is truly tough to falsify those. --AxelBoldt
The mistake you're making here is assuming that evolution is one theory. It is not. It is literally thousands of theories, each one falsifiable. Formally, the set of such theories is known as the "evolutionary mechanism theories," or EMTs. You cannot falsify the set of EMTs all at once, but you can falsify any one of them. And, in fact, this happens all the time. The consequence is that either the theory is dropped as unsound, adjusted to become more sound, or evaluated in its interaction with other theories, and then perhaps several theories are modified.
The following was added to the main page, but is clearly commentary, so it belongs here. I think he's right that some mention should be made of the different schools of thought, including "intelligent design" (though it would be incorrect to call it a scientific hypothesis as he does, because it's clearly not falsifiable). --- LDC
Don't forget that there are two major kinds of Creationism: Sudden Creationism and Intelligent Design.
Sudden Creationism is the religious doctrine that God created everything in a very short period of time (one week) a relatively short time ago (six thousand years). What He created includes the artifacts known as fossils, which would in this view not comprise a 'record' of any sort.
Intelligent Design is the scientific hypotheses that evolution, i.e, the appearance of new species over time, really did happen. Its cause was not random genetic mutation but intervention by a divine force.
Sudden Creationism is not a scientific theory because it interprets the only evidence available (fossils) according to pre-conceived doctrine. Intelligent design is a viable hypothesis because it fits the facts rather than interpreting them away.
The difference between Intelligent Design and Darwinism is the change agent. While Darwinists regard God as not being involved in evolution (often because of His presumed non-existence), advocates of Intelligent Design regard God as being involved.
-- Ed Poor
Further, in the highly controversial aspect of the evolution of humanity itself, which is where the big hangup is in the minds of creationists, I added a blurb for creationism. I mean, what's the harm. See Homo sapiens, which itself needs some work. :) -- User:Chuck Kincy
This was indented, so it looks like it was intended to be discussion:
If it wasn't discussion, it still didn't really fit into the article, and doesn't say anything that isn't already well covered here.
WRT the comment on US/not-US views on creationism, there's more to it than that. The comment probably applies in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and most of Western Europe (first-world nominally majority-Christian countries), but beyond I simply don't know (for example, the mostly Catholic areas of South America), suspect that the debate, if any, between evolution and religious creation views is framed in entirely different terms (Japan, for instance), or suspect that much of the general public simply isn't aware of evolutionary theory because of a lack of education (large parts of rural Africa, perhaps). -- User:Robert Merkel
It would probably be difficult to find hard data supporting the idea that creationism is less strong outside of the US, but here's my evidence:
I don't know about islamic countries though. --AxelBoldt
There's much more Creationism/Talk than Creationism. I'd like to find a way to extract the arguments for and against Creationism and put them in a Wikipedia article to stand for all time. The threads here are too hard to follow.
How about a structure like I. Define the term II. Explain why (some) people believe it. III. Give a critique of those reasons.
I'm well aware that Darwin's theory is dominant. I have no problem with it getting the lion's share of Wiki space, even on non-Darwinist articles! Just let the other views get heard and understood is all I ask. After that, critique all you want. If the ideas are any good, they'll stand the test. If not, the opposing ideas will be clear winners.
Just have a fair contest. User:Ed Poor
I deleted the comment that "People outside USA accept darwinism" - I want numbers and reference sources. Actually although I am obviously an evolutionist, I would dispute that "darwin's view" is dominant. It certainly is among the "educated" classes of the world, but how many people are "educated" to the point where they can discern the distincrtions of Darwinism? I'm not supportive on any claim regarding "who and how many believe what" until we have HARD DATA with well-defined methodologies for the collection of that data. - User:MMGB
I found some better data to put on the Evolution poll page; it should be folded into the Creationism article eventually. Unfortunately, the best data is Gallup's phone poll of 1000 Americans (which isn't very good); the only European data was an internet poll, which is even worse. --LDC
If "commonly-accepted scientific model" means the model commonly accepted by scientists, than it sure isn't ID or any other stripe of Creationism. But if you meant to indicate that the non-Creationist model was commonly accepted by the general public, your own link proves you wrong.
Now, don't get me wrong. I respect you, and I love science. And I'm not going to insist that everyone slap labels of approval on all my pet ideas. But can't you let me describe Creationism is it is, without sticking in your critique before I even get up to speed? -- User:Ed Poor
Revised this sentence, which glosses over ID's areas of agreement.
Article said Papal acceptance of evolution had ended debate in Catholic countries for "those who hold to Papal infallibility". I deleted the reference to papal infalliability, because evolution is not ex cathedra, so papal infalliability does not apply to it. And besides, most Catholics who accept the Pope's views on evolution don't do so because they believe him to be infalliable on the issue -- rather they believe the scientists, especially since the Pope does not oppose what they say. So I replaced that bit with "for most people." -- User:SJK
How can I put in an HTML link to non-wiki information, such as http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/sides.html ?
Also, Jonathan Wells writes:
-- User:Ed Poor
Moved from main page:
Ed Poor: You removed 'fundamentalist' from the following, saying most Americans believe in creationism and aren't fundamentalists:
Firstly, I disagree that most Americans are creationists -- 49% of Americans believe in evolution vs. 47% believe in creation, according to the Gallup Poll. (That 40% believe God has some role in it only makes them creationists if they believe this is a scientific theory.) Secondly, the point is that American support for creationism is because of the influence of Christian Fundamentalism in the US, even if many Christians who support believe in creationism are not fundamentalists. -- User:SJK
No, you're mixed up on the poll numbers. Give me 10 minutes, and I'll lay it all out for you. This war is senseless. Can you be patient? -- User:Ed Poor
Poll numbers, quoted verbatim from < http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr010214c.asp>
Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin and development of human beings
Ed: And, the poll, by my interpretation says 49% of Americans believe in evolution, 47% in creationism. I think very few of the 40% who believe in God-guided evolution believe this to be a scientific theory as opposed to religious belief. -- User:SJK
SJK: And my interpretation is that 9% of Americans believe in unguided evolution, 40% in God-guided evolution, and 47% reject evolution altogether. -- User:Ed Poor
Gosh, no. I have no idea whether any of the 40% who believe in God-guided evolution are even aware of Intelligent Design (ID). Also, I'm not sure how compatible ID is with Darwinian evolution. Doesn't the latter specifically exclude any supernatural causes? If so, this would seem to differentiate from ID, to say the least. -- User:Ed Poor
It's entirely "compatible" in the sense that it's entirely irrelevant to it, as are all non-falsifiable theories. --LDC
This discussion is going too fast. I wrote this three or four Edit Conflicts ago:
Perhaps you deem the term 'creationism' to exclude God-guided evolution (see Intelligent Design). If so, we need to decide which usage of 'creationism' the wikipedia will retain. For example, should the articles on Creationism and Intelligent Design be separate, with Creationism held not to include ID? Or will we stick with my proposal that Creationism includes both Sudden Creationism (what you call simply 'creationism') and ID?
I will support whatever best accords with the Wiki Nature. I am really not trying to garner support for my biases, and I am open to constructive criticism.
-- User:Ed Poor
I think there are two theories of God-guided evolution, one of which is compatible with Darwinian evolution, the other is not. The one which is incompatible, the one you are putting forward, is that speciation occurs by direct divine action (which is what the Intelligent Design article says). This theory is certaintly a form of creationism (indeed, I would question whether it deserves the title 'evolution', but that is another issue.) The other one, which is compatible with Darwinian evolution, holds that God guided evolution, but puts this forward as a purely religious view, not as a scientific theory. This second theory of God-guided evolution is compatible with Darwinian evolution, and is not a form of creationism.
Now the Gallup Poll you provide does not distinguish these two theories, so the 40% who believe in God-guided evolution could be believing in either. However, I think it is more likely than not they believe in the second theory; most of these respondents probably identified as evolutionists, not creationists, and thought they were agreeing with science, just expressing a religious view on top. However, the Gallup poll itself really can't answer this question. -- User:SJK
I don't think either of your proposed definitions is adequate. As the term is generally used in the press and by most Americans, a "creationist" is someone who rejects evolution, and believes that God created man. This would exclude most ID proponents, but it would include far more people than the small minority which you describe as "sudden" creationists (your term--I've never heard that term anywhere else). I personally know quite a few people who accept, for example, that the Earth is 4 billion years old and that the fossil record is accurate, but maintain that mankind in its present form was created (or instilled with "souls", or whatever) by God. The spectrum of belief is complex and interwoven. It simply cannot be reduced to a few categories. --LDC
I also repaired two sentences that claimed scientists reject ID because it is a religious idea (which is false--they reject it because it is nonfalsifiable), and removed the word "proof" from the next sentence, since no scientist would ever use that word. --LDC
LDC: Just in case there is a misunderstanding here, 'Sudden Creationism' and 'Intelligent Design' are Ed's terms, not mine. (Sudden Creationism occurs only once on Google: http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/GCCCREA.TXT). I think that although there are a broad variety of God-guided evolution viewpoints, they can be divided into two classes -- those compatible with the modern Neo-Darwinian theory of evolution, and those incompatible with it. I think that those who believe in theories involving God incompatible with Neo-Darwinian evolution belong in the creationist camp, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise :) -- User:SJK
I'm not confused, SJK; I was replying to Ed, not you--it just looks that way because the damned edit conflicts make it impossible to have a thoughtful discussion here since we're posting every 5 minutes. And Ed's right--"Intelligent design" is a well-known mainstream term, and deserves coverage. --LDC
Perhaps the thing to do is write up the worthy viewpoints that disagree with the modern Neo-Darwinian theory of evolution. That done, we can decide whether to call them 'creationist' or what. I really don't care what terms we wind up using; I just want to see the ideas included somehow. -- User:Ed Poor
I've been lobbying for that all along, Ed: go to it. There's a lot about the ID school that should be covered on that page. Who created the term? Who were its early proponents? What are the major books in the field? What are their specific claims? How has the field developed? What are its specific disagreements with other beliefs? I don't know these things--I've studied science. But you claim to be an adherent of the field, so do some basic research and write a good article on that. Then we can decide how to link it in with the rest of these. --LDC
Not sure of the relevance to this. Did the writer intend to link fundamentalism with the rejection of evolution? (If so, it's not clear and should be expanded on.) I vote for taking it out. --Ed Poor
The Newsweek article makes a claim that 700 scientists take creation science seriously, which is a reasonable statistic. It is then claimed that the remainder therefore believe in "the scientific theory"; which theory is not stated, and at any rate this cannot be assumed, so I removed that assumption.
I also removed:
from the discussion of process theology, because it is confusing: it says that PT is consistent because it makes no claims of divine intervention, which implies that Darwinism denies divine intervention (which is false, though certainly many Darwinists themselves do). And at any rate, every non-scientific theory is compatible with any scientific theory--that's why they're not scientific, so this statement doesn't say anything. --LDC
However, this cannot be taken to mean that the 40% who believe God guided evolution believe in Intelligent Design Theory -- they may merely believe that God guided evolution as a religious view ( Intelligent design), while accepting Darwinian evolution. (Or, even more likely, they may not have sufficently understood or thought through the issue to understand the distinction at stake here.)
Creationism refers to more than just the belief that God created the universe; it refers to the belief that He did so in such a way that evolution did not occur, as accepted by science.
The following looks like commentary, and I'd like to take it out (or rephrase it) --Ed Poor:
From what I know, it's basically true, so it shouldn't be deleted. In order to be npov, though, it probably should be reworded. Can anyone actually come up with a rigorous definition? It is a "creation science" term, so it should be in scientific terms, i.e., testable in any given case. Some examples would be good, too. -- User:Dmerrill
You guys have been so darn nice and accommodating that now I'm being to doubt some stuff that I fought keep in:
I'm no longer sure about the "very few" part. It could be anywhere from 10% to 50%, I guess. Anyone got any hard numbers on this? -- User:Ed Poor
Since the statement about process theology being compatible with darwinism was removed, I also removed the following statement:
Personally, I think that the point that both process theology and deism accept Darwinism, while creationism doesn't, is a point worth making, but we have to be consistent here if we are going to describe which theologies accept Darwinism, so for now I took out the statement regarding Deism. -- Egern.
"Sudden Creationism is generally considered an expression of religious literalism. Sudden Creationists oppose evolution on the grounds that it conflicts with the account of creation . . ."
You could replace it with "Young Earth" creationism, which probably should have a page of its own. -LDC
User:Ed Poor suggests some questions the article should address:
Some answers: by definition, creationism conflicts with Darwinian evolution as accepted by science. If it is compatible with it, then it is not creationism, as the term is normally used.
It is possible for a creationist to accept some form of evolution, so long as they do not accept the full Darwinian theory. (Otherwise, if they fully accepted Darwinian evolution, they wouldn't be a creationist.) -- User:SJK
SJK's formulation would seem to divide ideas on evolution into three broad categories:
1. Do all agree? 2. If so, may I revise Creationism to reflect this "clarification"? -- User:Ed Poor
The following needs revision to conform with SJK's definition of creationism (one I'm happy to accept):
or
The "Others" should not be understood as "Other creationists", but rather as "Other people". Sorry if my text was less than clear. -- User:SJK
The creationism
talk page has become so long we clearly need to archive older discussions (in lieu of someone boldly deleting discussion that is no longer relevant to anything). So, see
Talk:Creationism (archive) for the creationism talk page archive.
I would be happier with the article if it became so clear that the following sentence would be untrue (and thus have to be omitted):
I think we have won half the battle already, assuming SJK's definition of creationism holds.
It should also be possible to resolve any remaining ambiguity over the use of evolution into (a) the accepted Darwinian theory in particular and (b) evolution in general (any theory even the Darwinian one). Then I can die happy :-) Ed Poor
The article is sometimes unclear when mentioning evolution and creationism. Perhaps their meaning is shifting
Maybe we need a chart with categories such as:
These would be overlapping categories, and the various terms could be defined in reference to them. -- Ed Poor
According to the Catholic Church [1]:
Okay, folks, I took another stab at creationism. I hope this version makes it quite clear that scientists (a) don't accept it and (b) have very good scientific reasons for not accepting it.
My aim was to present creationism as creationists see it, while giving science its due. There are a dozen scientific articles supporting evolution, and only a couple of creationism articles. Try not to feel that every article must repudiate creationism lest science fail in its educational goals. I really doubt the creationism article (as I revised it) will sway anyone away from the scientific camp.
The goal of NPOV on controversial issues is to make clear what the various positions are, and that's all I'm trying to do here. -- Ed Poor
As contentious as the debate has been at times, as have to say that the article as it now stands is pretty good article. I'd like to see a few more specific references to important works of specific creationists (this is, after all, an encyclopedia article, and should have a bibliography); but other than that, I think it does a good job covering the field. --LDC
From a recent addition to the article:
This needs to be qualified, since for instance the pope and most other christians are not creationists yet believe in all those stories. AxelBoldt
I am not sure this makes sense:
"Natural Selection" is a major mechanism of speciation, which I thought creationists deny. User:Slrubenstein
Are there any numbers known for supporters over the WORLD? It's kind of unnecessary to focus on the USA only, and read a whole paragraph with all kinds of different polls conducted only there. Jeronimo
If a claim so sweeping is going to be made, it would be nice if it were accompanied by something like a coherent argument. The conclusion has no obvious relationship to the issue. Mkmcconn
I think that it might be helpful to point out the difference between specific kinds of creationism, which have more reliable and stable definitions - and organize the article according to those more stable definitions. The reason is, creationism is just too big of a word for what the article is targetting. The entry complains that the meaning is shifting. That's not really true, IMO. The meaning is growing, because opinions (which have always been diverse) are multiplying. Does anyone agree with me? Mkmcconn 02:13 Dec 27, 2002 (UTC)
Young Earth creationists who interpret the Bible literally believe that the Earth is somewhere around 6,000 years old (according to Bishop James Ussher's dating) and usually reject the Big Bang theory (which is related to creation of the universe). They claim that scientific findings contradict an old Earth and therefore evolution itself, a view that most mainstream scientists regard as absurd.
I would have to disagree with this statement. A 6,000 year old earth is not absurd to "most mainstream scientists", it is absurd to ALL scientists. If you believe the earth is 6,000 years old, you do so in the face of overwhelming science to the contrary, and with no science to support you. I would change it to "a view which is at odds with archaeology, biology, geology, climatology, and quantum physics", or at the very least "a view which scientists regard as absurd". Cardsharque
This article still needs to do a better job of defining the various kinds of creationism. For the most part, it seems to concentrate on scientific creationism and a scientifically literally interpretation of Genesis. This leaves the majority of creationists under-described. Mkmcconn 17:10 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Creationism is not considered a part of salvation theology for most Christians, and all major Christian denominations accept evolution theory.
I'm pretty sure there are a few denominations which do not (Southern Baptists? Mormons?). -- stewacide
I'm removing the above sentences because they assume the reliablity of evidence and procedures that as yet can only be accepted on faith. Also, dinosaurs becoming extinct no more disproves creation than any recent animal extinction, so 'key tenent' is not really NPOV. Jtocci 22:00 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I tried to reword these statements into something true and couldn't do so satisfactorily so I cut them. Roman Catholicism has always had creation as a doctrine, recent statements by the pope saying evolution is worthy of study doesn't change that. And how many ministers preach creation? When they do are people groaning? I think you merely have to look at the poll results in the article to know that most aren't. I welcome anyone to try to reword this. Jtocci 22:11 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I feel that RK is removing NPOV statements that should be left in. For example, "the only form of evolution admitted in pure creationism is microevolution" and "there are legitimate gaps, hence the debate on this point". Angela 21:00 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
To address your last point, I did delete one sentence that may contain the germ of a new idea; however, it really wasn't a topic I deleted - it was one vague sentence. We certainly can restore it, and we can have a section on this third party (philosophers, as you mention), as some of them apparently believe that scientific findings are no more or less falsifiable than religious claims. But this would need some specific examples and positions. The statement you want restored is vague, and needs elaboration. RK 22:46 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I think that material concerning who or what the Creator is, is more relevant to the issue of Creationism generally speaking, than is the material concerning proof and the relationship of science to Creationism. Although the latter is certainly a hot topic and plenty interesting, it isn't fundamental to the issue, as the former is. Just voicing out loud my disapproval that a strait-jacket has been put on this article, which in my opinion is the main reason that the patient appears to be deranged ... Mkmcconn 04:40 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)
There are three main views on "creation" and human origins, although they surely don't have equal numbers of adherents. In chronological order of appearance, they are:
Regardless of the degree to which individual Wikipedians adhere to these 3 views, I think they make a pretty good framework for defining and discussing the various schools of thought.
We might, for example, discuss the creationism inherent in various theologies. Also, several of the currents of thought regarding evolution may be defined in terms of "God created" vs. "no divine intervention".
Most interesting for me is the conversation between various scientists on the one hand, religious believers on the other hand, and a host of thinkers in between -- on the issue of what the fossil record and other evidence brings to bear on the issues. -- Uncle Ed 05:07 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Yes, let's stop fighting over what the Wikipedian position on creationism ought to be. It ought to go without saying that the Wikipedia cannot take a position -- on anything.
I think editors are afraid that if they let the article describe creationist views without a sufficiently strong rebuttal, it might mislead readers into becoming Creationists! -- Uncle Ed
A few edits back Angela made a good point that seem worth emphasizing. There are two theories to explain speciation. The Theory of Evolution and the The Theory of Creationism. Creationism is as much a theory as evolution. As a scientist I have no problem with accepting and considering both theories. There is apparantly considerable evidence to support both theories. Ping 09:15 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)
No doubt there are some scientists who feel that Creationism is a valid scientific theory, but the vast majority of scientists reject Creationism as being something other than science. Moreover, there is a general antipathy among scientists for the forensic tactics of Creationists. -- NetEsq 14:43 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)
NetEsq makes an interesting point, the vast majority of scientists reject creationism True, but when did popular vote become a method for establishing scientific facts? The point I was making is that Creationism is, and always will be, only a theory. As such it does not threaten the Theory of Evolution. There is never going to be a vote upon the subject, not least because no one would pay any attention to the outcome anyway. Ping 07:58 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)
This is a straw man argument. No one has asserted that popular vote is the method for establishing scientific facts. Rather, scientific theories are subject to peer review, and when a theory that purports to be scientific has been rejected as unscientific by the vast majority of scientists who have reviewed that theory, it is our job as Wikipedians to note that fact.
In the talk sections of various other Wikipedia articles, I have commented that it is not our job as Wikipedians to resolve factual disputes. Rather, if a noteworthy person group of people makes a factual assertion, it is our job to report that factual assertion and the factual assertions made by other noteworthy persons or groups, taking great care to note who said what and leaving the reader to determine the credibility of competing authorities. For instance, we can report that the former Iraqi Information Minister asserted that Saddam Hussein was still in control of Baghdad while noting the contrary reports of embedded reporters. Moreover, we can report that a significant group of people believe that the Earth is flat, even though the vast majority of scientists and laypersons reject this viewpoint. -- NetEsq 15:02 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)
A valid point and well put. Ping 07:21 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
There has been a great deal of talk on the Talk page for the Evolution article about merging the Scientific Creationism article into the article on Creationism. I think this would be a huge mistake. The creationism article should cover the philosophy of creationism, and the scientific creationism article should cover the pseudo-science which is the classic adversary of the Theory of Evolution. Beyond a certain amount of ambiguity in the terms creationism and creation science, the two topics have very little in common with each other. -- NetEsq 04:30 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I hate to say it, but on this issue at least, I agree with NetEsq. Creationism and creation science are two separate things: not all creationists are creation scientists (quite the contrary!). Placing everything we have on creation science into this article would be like placing everything on the Unitarian church in our article on Christianity. -- mav 05:22 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I just opened up the Third College Edition of Webster's New World Dictionary ( ISBN 013-949298-4) and found the following definitions for creationism and creation science, right next to each other:
Note that the theological doctrine in re the genesis of souls -- i.e, creationism -- is a philosophical topic that has *NOTHING* whatsoever to do with the Theory of Evolution, much less creation myths such as the biblical account of Genesis, whereas the second term is a highly specific one that has entered the official lexicon of the English Language (as set forth by Webster).
In other words, put creation science anywhere you want, as long as you don't put in the creationism article. -- NetEsq 06:35 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
<< [T]he older theological use should be discussed at creationism (theology). >>
Now *that* makes sense! Bravo! -- NetEsq 06:53 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
From the article:
The debate on creationism entails a debate on what constitutes scientific evidence, and what kinds of facts are acceptable as proof. Ultimately, the discussion rages with unverifiable assertions on both sides.
The reason for passionate debate on the matter is known however. Believers on both sides begin by accepting something on faith and build from there. Creationists believe in a creator and scientists believe in various dating techniques. For those who hold that faith is not admissible as evidence, there is no evidence to begin a debate.
This is totally non-NPOV. Scientists do most surely not accept that their arguments are based on faith. The two paragraphs make the article worse rather than better in their present form. -- Robert Merkel 06:13 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
OK, I'll try to rewrite/merge the two articles in a way that hopefully makes sense. Please give me a few minutes and then look over the result, but let's try to avoid edit conflicts. -- Eloquence 07:11 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
OK, I'm mostly finished. I considered moving all the theological stuff over, but since it's currently relatively brief, that may not be necessary. Please tell me what you think. -- Eloquence 09:14 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Well, if you want the theology completely separate from rationality, as it usually tends to be, then Wikipedia is not the place for such presentations. You will have to live with "interruptions" by people having different views, unless you are dealing with very specific theological questions. I think the current article does a reasonably good job at this, and defines creationism in more ways than most readers will probably care to know before going into the controversy. But if you think that the theological formulations need to be further refined, just go ahead and do it, we'll see where it goes. Just don't expect me to write about angels on pinheads, or something like that, I'll leave these questions to the experts. --
Eloquence 10:45 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I moved a substantial amount of content to Creationism (theology) because it seemed to be better suited to that article, but please feel free to mercilessly revert that edit if anyone thinks the move was inappropriate. -- NetEsq 17:36 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I suspect that this move is wrong because I look at it and I say inside, "Good one. That scores ten points for my side."
But hey! The game here is not scoring points. Rather, we should be doing something like describing the "system" of our modern world.
How can you split part of creationism out as theology! Practically speaking creationism is all theology. That is, the split of creationism into 1) God individual creation, 2) traducianism, and 3) pre-existence are merely variations on creationism in regard to the soul. You could also generate another humorous page on creationism (evolution) in which you could classify the various conjectures on the "means" by which God influenced the evolution of species.
By my thinking, as soon as you introduce God as some element in your hypothesis, you have a theology from which likely you oould remove God by Occam's razor to get a simpler testable hypothesis in the real world. Hence, practically all of creationism is theology. I leave as an exercise what part of creationism that would NOT be theology. To work that exercise maybe I could draw up a hypothesis that some entirely natural space alien "created" something on earth, but again it seems to me that Occam's razor would remove that space alien from every useful hypothesis--except possibly for something like those hypothetical crop circles that are signed by "Space Alien" in a metal alloy that could not possibly have earthly origin.
Hence, I propose as a feasibility study that I rewrite the combination page of creationism and creationism (theology) in a new set of pages with practical disambiguation where advantageous, starting from the link User:Rednblu/Development/Creationism which will of course have its own Talk page. After I and whoever wants to help has a working draft that we think is an improvement over what is already there--if we can do that--we will move it to replace creationism with a redirect from creationism (theology).
Maybe the split is the best solution. I don't have a real idea until I try it. Rednblu 21:07 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Simply put, the article "creationism" should give a history of creationist thought and an account of the controversy, while detailed discussions of various variants of creationism, some of which can be united with science and some of which cannot, should be discussed in creationism (theology). Ultimately, we may also want to merge creation myth into creationism (theology) as these two are somewhat redundant, and creationism (theology) is currently extremely Christian-centric. -- Eloquence 01:29 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The source I used for the statistics I quoted was the following:
A more primary source would be good, I'll see if the companion book to the series provides a direct source for the claim. -- Robert Merkel 02:06 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Eloquence, in classical theology, a theory is a construct of systematic abstract reasoning, as opposed to a fact. Creationism in its old sense is not properly, a theory. But neither does it "refer to a belief". It is a doctrine, whether anyone believes it or not. In any case, the purpose of editing that sentence was to remove the clumsy phrase, "refers to the belief", not to insert the word "theory" (which I used only because not all accept it as doctrine). I would prefer the sentence to read "traditionally, creationism is", rather than "creationism refers to". Are you opposed to my intention, here? Mkmcconn 05:05 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
their arguments have to be presented in the article about said movement, just like the arguments of the Flat Earthers are presented in Flat Earth, and not in Flat vs. Spherical Earth controvery, or even in Geology.
Evolutionary biology is the mainstream,
and the arguments by creationists are, for the most part, irrelevant from a scientific point of view,
so there is nothing biased about largely ignoring them in the article about evolution and linking to creationism instead, just as there is nothing biased
about ignoring the Flat Earth arguments in articles about geology. -- Eloquence 08:23 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I think it would be a good idea to avoid this usage of the term, since a theory by the scientific definition has to be testable, which theological "theories" certainly are not. Doctrine, dogma, belief would all be fine with me. As for the "refers to" phrase, I did not find it clumsy, as "creationism" was explicitly put in quotation marks, so it could be read as "the term 'creationism' refers to ..". But some people seem to have an aversion to this particular phrase, so I have no strong objections to replacing it. -- Eloquence 05:36 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Rednblu, as long as this article is about the scientific views of believers in creation, who try in various ways to prove the truth of their position, then this page is the right place for writers about science to test the merit of their claims. In fact, this is what "scientific creationists" want. They desire to have their claim tested on its scientific merit, rather than prejudicially dismissed as a religious view. If this is the scientific creationism article, then this page is the Creationism v Evolution page. It is on this page that the debate is allowed to appear undecided, so that the debate can be understood. Mkmcconn \
The Evolution article is different. It is a science page, where the finding of fact is reported: like reporting on the present understanding of how electricity works. It doesn't make much sense for a description of the present state of understanding to be interrupted with questions that have been answered in the past. The problem is clutter, redundancy, and confusion. Mkmcconn \
The answer is scope. Here, the scope of the topic touches on religion and science. It is not a theology page, but it invites theological debate; and the scientists say that it isn't science, but it invites interaction with science on its own terms. Each article is scoped, to allow in one place what is excluded somewhere else. Here, creation and design are treated as testable scientific issues; on a theology page they are not, and on the Evolution page they are not. In my opinion, that's an accurate report of the present state of these issues, with regard to Creationism. Mkmcconn 15:18 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Some duplication here because of contention for the edit privilege on the page.
Rednblu, as long as this article is about the scientific views of believers in creation, who try in various ways to prove the truth of their position, then this page is the right place for writers about science to test the merit of their claims. In fact, this is what "scientific creationists" want. They desire to have their claims tested on its scientific merit, rather prejudicially dismissed as a religious view. If this is the scientific creationism article, then this page is the Creationism v Evolution page. It is on this page that the debate is allowed to appear undecided, so that the debate can be understood. Mkmcconn \
The Evolution article is different.
It is a science page, where the finding of fact is reported: like reporting on the present understanding of how electricity works.
It doesn't make much sense for a description of the present state of understanding to be interrupted with questions that have been answered in the past. The problem is clutter, redundancy, and confusion. Mkmcconn \
The answer is scope. Here, the scope of the topic touches on religion and science. It is not a theology page,
but it invites theological debate; and the scientists say that it isn't science, but it invites interaction with science on its own terms.
Each article is scoped, to allow in one place what is excluded somewhere else. Here, creation and design are treated as testable scientific issues;
on a theology page they are not, and on the Evolution page they are not. In my opinion, that's an accurate report of the present state of these issues, with regard to Creationism. Mkmcconn 15:18 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
What do you see?
What is REALLY there!
Rednblu, please try to express yourself in a somewhat coherent manner, and please do not break up paragraphs to insert your comment or duplicate signatures. Instead write a reply on the next indentation level. See Wikipedia:Talk page for details. Please do not expect me to read through this mess. -- Eloquence 18:58 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Rednblu, there's a lot of answering going on, but I'm not sure what you are saying. One thing I can say is, tell me what you think should be on this article's page, in terms of information rather than arguments. Then I think that we'll be getting somewhere, in negotiating what the content should be. Mkmcconn 23:32 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
There are three main views on "creation" and human origins, although they surely don't have equal numbers of adherents. In chronological order of appearance, they are:
Regardless of the degree to which individual Wikipedians adhere to these 3 views, I think they make a pretty good framework for defining and discussing the various schools of thought.
We might, for example, discuss the creationism inherent in various theologies. Also, several of the currents of thought regarding evolution may be defined in terms of "God created" vs. "no divine intervention".
Most interesting for me is the conversation between various scientists on the one hand, religious believers on the other hand, and a host of thinkers in between -- on the issue of what the fossil record and other evidence brings to bear on the issues. -- Uncle Ed 13:08 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)
/ -> I'm growing too reflective in my responses, and I'm sorry. But please bear with just a moment's more reflection. If creationism is identical to what I would rather call The doctrine of creation, then it must be noted (for example) that the Roman Catholic church, like most other traditions, has never made a final pronouncement on either the truth or the falsity of evolution, but is dogmatic concerning belief that everything is the creation of God. Evolution is a peripheral issue. That evidently is not what this article is dealing with Mkmcconn \
If any theological perspective is peripheral to what we are calling creationism, but religion is essential, then it may be possible that what appears under creation beliefs (a redirect from creation myth), creator god, and a few other places, is suitable here. Mkmcconn \
But the state of present debate is one of our guides for categories. And at the present, "creationism" is almost precisely equivalent to biblical creationism or scientific creationism. These are are various religious critiques of the atheistic theory of evolution, usually based on or referring to the Bible. In that case, this article concerns the use of scientific arguments to disprove atheism in particular (especially Christian, Muslim, Hindu, and Intelligent Design - which differ significantly between themselves). Evolution is narrowed to its aspect as an expression of atheism. This is the reason that an atheist is more likely to complain of POV in this article, than the creationists are, when defining terms key to the debate, such as "creationism", "science", "evidence", "proof", etc. Mkmcconn 17:08 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)
There are problems under "Microevolution vs. Macroevolution". The article speaks of small critters, but microevolution concerns small changes in a population. Does the author referred to, accept the macroevolution of simple organisms, but not of complex organisms? Mkmcconn 15:14 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Why is the article so US-centric? Tannin
Richard Milton. See Darwin Doesn't Work Here Anymore: Shattering the myths of Darwinism.
Please note that I do *NOT* endorse the work of this author. -- NetEsq 18:13 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Richard Milton is, in fact, very well known among evolutionary biologists for his categorical rejection of Biblical creationism as well as his criticism of Post-Darwinism. To wit:
(Shattering the Myths of Darwinism, Preface.)
I am an anthropologist by training, and I accept the Theory of Evolution at face value -- i.e., as the most reasonable and scientific explanation for the genesis of life on Earth and the origin of the human species. However, I have always found a great deal of controversy among evolutionary biologists as to the reliability of the claims made by their peers. In fact, the only thing that most evolutionary biologists seem to agree upon is that anyone who questions the scientific validity of the Theory of Evolution should be labeled a Creationist before they are promptly tarred, feathered, and then run out of town on a rail, not unlike the Cold War persecution of accused communists in the United States.
As I stated previously, I do not endorse the work of Richard Milton: His criticism of Post-Darwinism is weak at best. At the same time, he is clearly not someone who is trying to advance a religious agenda. -- NetEsq 21:18 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Point of order: There is no love lost between me and the Fundamentalist Christians who seek to promote their religious values by impeaching the legitimacy of the Theory of Evolution, and careful reading of my post will reveal that I have no pity for such people. However, I do not think that Richard Milton falls into this category, and -- wrong as Milton may be -- I do not think that he deserves the same contempt that one might reserve for a modern day William Jennings Bryan.
On this note, leading the charge against Milton is none other than Richard Dawkins, author of The Selfish Gene, one of the most controversial books ever to be published on the subject of the Theory of Evolution. To wit, it has been apparent since at least the 1970s that genes are not evolutionary units, at least not in any functional sense, no matter how one defines genes. And if there is such a thing as a "selfish gene," it would be synonymous with an oncogene.
Rather than respond to the criticism of anti-evolutionists such as Milton, Dawkins sees fit to poison the well by labeling Milton a creationist with a religous agenda, and he ain't. He just ain't. -- NetEsq 05:30 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Thanks to all, for toning down the conversation to a decent level of civility and politeness. It's much easier to follow the thread(s) when there's a dearth of invective.
Now, how about the "creationism vs. evolution" issue, in regards to government-run public schools in America? Should that issue be in the creationism article -- or what?
Somewhere in the Wikipedia, there should be an article outlining the viewpoints of the various groups who want:
You can all probably guess where I personally stand on the creationism vs. evolution controversy. Yet the issue of what I (or you) want the US government and state governments to encourage children to believe is another, separate matter. I don't actually want the goverment to indoctrinate children with my own church's views (that possibly violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment). On the other hand, I don't want goverments indoctrinating children to reject religious views (that certainly violates the Free Speech and Freedom of Religion clauses).
So, where do we go from here, fellows? -- Uncle Ed 14:47 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Given my druthers, I'd leave this article to the tender mercies of Eloquence, as I agree in spirit with the assertion that creation science/creationism is the bane of public education and legitimate scientific inquiry. Moreover, without the context of the Theory of Evolution, there would not be an article on creation science/creationism. The same thing cannot be said about the Theory of Evolution: It stands on its own two feet.
During my college days, I encountered quite a few religious zealots who were anthropology majors, and it was rather intriguing to see them write long, drawn out, technical expositions of the mechanisms of biological evolution, then finish their essays with, "Of course, I only wrote this paper because I want a good grade. Everyone knows that the Theory of Evolution is just a bunch of crap. The true story of creation is found in the Book of Genesis in the King James Version of the Bible."
In other words, if parents want their children to learn creation science/creationism in lieu of and/or in addition to the Theory of Evolution, there is no shortage of parochial schools in the United States that will be happy to accomodate them, and these schools will do a very good job of insulating impressionable young minds from the dangers, be they real or imagined, of secular science. -- NetEsq 16:08 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Interruptions: It takes imagination to write these interruptions into a flowing narrative. I worry about seeming to flatter Eloquence, but I think he did a good job of organizing the material into an encyclopedic treatment of the debate, instead of a transcript of the argument. That pattern should be upheld. Mkmcconn \
Education: just to review the obvious (but it will not directly help this article). Within the creationst communities themselves, the priority of issues is in this order 1) Belief in God through 2) belief in the word of God for the sake of 3) training their children to escape the insanity of the world, to 4) make their children useful to the kingdom of God and a benefit to the world. In order to put these goals to work, they need 5) knowledge of the world. Education that consists of of the lowest 1/5 of their priorities, is useless to their purposes. They cannot all afford private education, and they do not all feel competent to educate their children on their own. They turn to the redemption of public education to the Evangelical cause, because they are tax-payers, and feel that the collection of their taxes for education, implies the privilege of control of education. Finally, these are essentially the same priorities that the Catholics have; and the fact the majority accept evolution does not change the fact that 4/5 of what they think is important, cannot be mentioned in a public school classroom. The difference is, that Catholics, due to their more stable institution, have a greater range of educational choices. And now, conservative Muslims and Sikhs are entering the picture. We are facing a situation in which public schools do not teach, even in the most general terms, what most people think is most important in education. And this would not be so bad, except that a growing number feel that the schools are, in fact, indoctrinating their children to be hostile to their parental influences. Mkmcconn 16:21 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I'm not ignoring it, although that is a valid concern. Rather, I am expressing my own viewpoint in re the consequences of appeasing creation scientists/creationists. (I.e., "Given my druthers . . .") Ultimately, I defer to Wikipedia's NPOV policy, and I think that creation science/creationism should be discussed with the same sort of dispassionate academic demeanor observed by scholars such as Stephen Jay Gould. And for all his clear, obvious -- and eminently *rational* -- bias against creation science/creationism, I think that Eloquence has repeatedly demonstrated a keen understanding of Wikipedia's NPOV policy.
You are preaching to the choir, but this is an issue that is ancillary to this article. One solution that has been proposed is funding parochial schools with tuition vouchers, a solution that is almost as controversial as the subject currently being debated. -- NetEsq 16:50 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
True enough. Wikipedia's NPOV policy is not aptly named. In fact, Wikipedia's NPOV policy requires a balanced presentation of noteworthy biased viewpoints. To wit, "The vast majority of scientists reject creation science as pseudo science, and this is why. . . ." -- NetEsq 17:15 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
What has happened here is that the evolutionists have established an official censorship over the content of the Creationism page to prevent the development of a NPOV page that explains what creationism is.
So I propose the development of a NPOV page on creationism away from the current powers of the evolutionist censors. For example, we could start a NPOV page on creationism at User:Rednblu/Creationism. Alternatively, you might start a NPOV page on creationism under your own LogonId. We will maintain a link at the top of this page to where the actual NPOV development is occurring.
I am curious to see what an actual NPOV page on creationism would say.
Before you participate in such a revolutionary act, I suggest that you consider what participation in this project will cost you when the evolutionist censors come after you. Rednblu 12:16 24 Jul 2003 (UTC)
---
That has not been my experience. As a whole, religious conservatives are *VERY* concerned that their children are being taught *ANYTHING* about sex in the public school system, much more so than they are about whether Creationism is being given equal time alongside the Theory of Evolution. In fact, a common assertion that is made by religious conservatives is that their "children don't need to learn about sex until after they're married!" In the rare instances where I've been able to point out that the Bible is full of all sorts of salacious material -- e.g., Lot and his daughters; the Song of Songs -- and that it is highly advisable for adolescent girls to start visiting a gynecologist regularly before the onset of menarche, I am quickly labeled a Godless heathen. -- NetEsq 21:04 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Actually, I have a great deal of sympathy for conservative parents who wish to shield their children from agendas which the parents find objectionable, be they religious agendas, secular agendas, humanistic agendas, or simply libertine agendas, and -- in the instances where I have had the opportunity to do so -- I have been more than willing to intercede on behalf of the religious conservatives who want nothing more than the opportunity to raise their own children as they see fit. At the same time, I think it is somewhat disingenuous to say that most religious conservatives speak openly about sex, even amongst themselves. I am very familiar with such people, given that I have a first cousin who teaches Greek and Hebrew at a seminary, and his grandfather (no blood relation to me) donated an entire gymnasium to Pepperdine University. My cousin, his parents, and the benefactors of my cousin's grandfather would be the first to admit that their values are puritanical, and that they see a great deal of danger inherent in the frank and open discussion of the taboo topic of sexuality. God only knows why they tolerate my frequent challenges to their world view. -- NetEsq 22:52 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Some parents tell the children stories of creationism. And other parents sue in court to keep creationism out of public schools.
Some parents think they should protect their children from the doctrines that the majority wants to teach. Rednblu 00:48, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
No doubt there are people who would question whether parents should have the right to decide how their children should be raised and/or what their children should be taught in school, but for me that issue is a non-starter. The only exceptions that I see to that general rule are the issues of when children should be removed from an abusive parent and/or when children should have the right to emancipate themselves and take on the rights and responsibilities of an adult and/or the right to choose their own legal guardian.
In the United States, minors are more or less automatically emancipated at the age of 18, but for the fact that people under the age of 21 cannot drink alcoholic beverages, people under the age of 25 cannot run for Congress, and people under the age of 35 cannot run for President. Emancipation proceedings for minors over the age of 16 are fairly common, a little less common for minors over the age of 14, and extremely rare (but not unheard of) for minors under the age of 14. -- NetEsq 00:07 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Netesq, this is a very interesting statement; and as I think about it, the more interesting it is (it couldn't be more opposite of my own views of the issue). But, before I settle into my conclusions about what you mean by it, I should ask first, what do you mean by it? Mkmcconn 15:20, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I wholeheartedly agree. As I'm sure you remember, I attempted to point out that creationism is not synonymous with creation science, and I argued for the creation (pun intended) of a separate article on creationism qua creationism in theology. Somehow that article ended up getting redirected to the present creationism qua creation science article, and the article on creationism qua creationism in theology ended up in the article on creation beliefs. I am not particularly satisfied with the way that played out, but I feel that I've more or less shot my wad on this issue: I'm not particularly well-informed on the theological aspects of creationism, and I would have a difficult time making a case for creationism qua creationism in theology having its own article. -- NetEsq 18:18, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
If I may be so bold, and play the Devil's Advocate on your behalf, the primary conflict here seems to be a philosophical and moral one wherein atheists, agnostics, and secular scientists seek to impeach the value of theology as a field of inquiry. Assuming, arguendo, that this is the motive of evolutionists, one could logically impeach the arguments of evolutionists in re creationism (qua creationism in theology) as being red herring arguments and/or fallacious arguments ignoratio elenchi. This fallacy occurs when an advocate of a particular position is ignorant of the logical implications of his or her own premises and (as a result) draws a conclusion that misses the point and/or changes the subject to draw a conclusion that no reasonable person would dispute. -- NetEsq 02:10, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Tannin has just reverted an edit by Jtocci without discussing any of his reasons, so I reverted it back. I see nothing wrong with the arguments Jtocci added so would like Tannin to point out the problems before he reverts it back. Angela 00:58, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I reverted under the "obvious nonsense" rule: the edit, among other grossly POV silliness, said that "no transitional form has ever been found", for example - and that's about as far from the verified, accepted, uncontroversial truth of the matter as it's possible to get. See any biology textbook. Tannin 03:08, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)
The theological perspectives on creationism are already discussed in detail in creation beliefs. This article makes quite clear that usage of the term creationism has shifted from referring to specific theological concepts to describing the belief in the creation of the universe or Earth by a deity. I fail to see what kind of "theological perspective" is missing. —Eloquence 08:38, Aug 18, 2003 (UTC)
Let's not revert stuff, merely because we don't agree with it. I myself have no opinion on no transitional form has ever been found and neither should the article. Why not say this?
Of course, we might want a put a bit more detail on the views of X and Y, such as (a) on what basis X claims no such form has been found; (b) what precisely a "transitional form" is supposed to be; and (c) what evidence Y advances in favor of them (certain fossils, I guess).
Let's not suppress each other's pet ideas, but help one another give them their fullest expression. I really want to know why creationists believe in creationsm, and I really want to know why evolutionists believe in evolution. Please help one another to make an article of lasting value. -- Uncle Ed 13:48, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)
<<Creationism, in contrast, is the work of people writing about science>>
I am wholly in favor of moving the content of the present article on creationism to creation science or (even better) scientific creationism, thereby leaving the creationism article to cover the topic of creationism in the context of theology. Indeed, this was my original suggestion, long since steamrolled over in favor of stuffing creationism into the article on creation beliefs, which is a wholly unsatisfactory solution. -- NetEsq 03:38, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
<< . . . [T]he controversy described here, is actually the controversy between atheism and theism; not the Creationism controversy >>
I echo these sentiments. -- NetEsq 04:58, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Uncle Ed, do not read the following. It does not matter that "scientific creationism" is a contradiction in terms. How could POV terms be "unacceptable" if they are the terms that people use in reality? That you see a POV term as "unacceptable" is symptomatic of the problem here. You have not reached a NPOV level from which you can see that "scientific creationism" is just another POV label that people in reality use--with no more threat to your dearest beliefs than the other oxymorons in the English language such as "free market," "Communist conspiracy," or "free love." If you do not permit the oxymoron and POV label "free market" to be used, you will cause the kind of nonsense page that you have at Creationism. The nonsense label "free market" stands for something in the real world because people make it stand for something even if you object very strongly from your POV to what the label stands for. Wake up! Rednblu 05:28, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
KRS added the following:
Hinduism, Creationism and Evolutionism
Hinduism doesn't see a conflict between creation and evolution. In Hinduism, the triumvirate [Gods] Brahma- Vishnu- Shiva are considered respectively Creator- Protector- Destroyer.The various Avatars of Vishnu the Dasavathara [Dasa=10, Avatar= incarnation]are generally accepted as showing a remarkable and very close co-relation with Darwinian evolution.
The Avatars are as follows 1.Matsya- fish 2.Koorma- turtle 3.Varaha- single horned pig 4.Narasimha -half lion half man 5.Vamana- dwarf 6.Parasurama- a great sage 7.Rama - a great and righteous king 8.Balarama- brother of Krishna 9.Krishna- a popular God who was a cowherd 10. Kalki- God on a horse.
[There are also other versions of the Dasavatar, one of which incorporates the Buddha]
According to popular belief, the first nine avatars are already completed, the tenth avatar is yet to come and would coincide with Pralaya when the world would end in water- to rise yet again. This is supposedly in the near future in the Kali-Yuga, yuga being a unit of time.
The concept of cyclic time is central to Hinduism [unlike the concept of linear time in many other religions]. In fact, time is represented as a wheel- 'Kaala Chakra- Wheel of Time'.Probably this could be one of the reasons why there is no conflict between religion and science in Hinduism.
Probably any debate on creationism Vs evolutionism would have to necessarily include and accomodate the concept and theories of time.
An interesting point is that though Brahma is considered the Creator, unlike Vishnu and Shiva,there is no temple of worship for him reasons for which are given in myths.
Since hinduism does not see the conflict which is the center of this article (which focuses on the modern usage of the word "creationism"), this material probably belongs on creation beliefs. It could use some copyediting first, though. —Eloquence 21:31, Aug 19, 2003 (UTC)
But I don't agree with the fact that it is controversial or should come in some other section. If this was a specific article on Christian beliefs I would not have even touched the page. The first sentence clearly says that creationism believes that God created man and evolutionism that man evolved through natural selection. In such a general context, if you point out that in Christianity a conflict occurs between both beliefs and add on that most scientists don't believe in Creationism, I have an equal right to add that in Hinduism there is not much of a conflict. How can you say that because there is no conflict it need not be included? It is precisely because of this that it has to be included.In connection with the mention of surveys, in India, the most learned and brilliant scientists still believe in God and are not atheists because of this lack of conflict. But I have not mentioned this because, there is no scientifc survey, just a general acceptance that religion and science coexist peacefully.
In Islam, for example, figurative sculpture is not allowed because only God can create man, and man is not allowed to create man. This is also germane to the discussion. probably someone weel versed in this should add on info.
<<Once again, you're missing the point.>>
The way I understand creationism, it really is a belief that the account of creation in the Genesis is true, and it really is largely confined to the USA. The way I understand ethnocentrism, the article would be Eurocentric or Americocentric if it were phrased in a way that didn't make that clear and claimed or lent itself to the interpretation that every religion adheres to these beliefs, or that opposition to evolution is prevalent in every culture. Since that is not the case, the article is not Eurocentric. -- Miguel
Thank you, NetEsq, for putting this succinctly. There is no Christian control of this page. I am beginning to see some anti-Christian and anti-European statements here that really bother me.
RK 12:29, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Yes. Of course. I am being dramatic. But in the process, I appreciate everyone's contributions to what I am learning here. To summarize, I hypothesize that our conversation about the Creationism page mirrors the structure of the problem in the outer world. And I appreciate your coming in and out of the conversation and not abandoning the knotty problem here. Sure, there are no "controllers" here. But I would not feel that I knew a very good solution if I could not come up with something that the "controllers" would not look at and say, "Well. Maybe you have a point. Give it a try." So I think my job is to keep coming up with more ideas. I liked your idea that the page should be titled Creation science. And Mkm's question about making the page match people's experience made me think. And Elo's complaints about "Creation science" as a title made me think about the problems of oxymoronic and POV titles for pages. Is this learning worthwhile? It is at least as entertaining as the book I am supposed to be writing. Thank you and good night all. Rednblu 06:16, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Eloquence, now the intro is clear and I am getting out of the debate. But I think that wherever the word creationism is mentioned it should be represented by an upper case C- this will remove any remaining ambiguity. I am not touching the article, so please oblige KRS 15:07, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I wish there were some way to clear the air. Maybe all this "hot air" could move over to the global warming article, heh heh. But, seriously, folks...
We need clear definitions of terms. Can we say that creationism is the belief that God deliberately created life? And that a particular major current of creationism claims that deliberately created ALL forms of life, including every species known to man?
Can we come to some sort of agreement over how to classify those creation beliefs that are not involved in the "creation vs. evolution" debate? I think Eloquence moved or advocated moving some of the Hindu ideas into another article, on the grounds that they are MERE BELIEFS.
I guess it is " creation science" or " scientific creationism" that causes the biggest fuss here. I'm reading a book by Larry Witham which says that English-speaking creationists reacted to the Darwin centennial by re-asserting their religious beliefs. This assertion included the claim that geology backs up the Old Testament account of Creation. Of course, the outcry against this claim has been loud and long.
Really, we need at least one or two articles to cover creationist ideas properly.
If we can cover all this material in one article, that's fine and dandy. But it might requre multiple articles. It goes without saying that no article which speaks about evolution will go unchallenged for more than a day or two around here, if it attempts to "disprove" evolutionist ideas. I don't think any of us imagine we could or ought to write an article which uses the Wikipedia name to endorse anti-evolution ideas -- or for that matter, pro-evolution ideas. That wouldn't be neutral; Jimbo said that this encyclopedia shouldn't take sides in controversies.
However many number of articles we settle on, we should try first to agree on an editorial policy. I suggest that we:
I think this will work. What do you all think? -- Uncle Ed 15:40, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
From the American Heritage Dictionary:
From Princeton's WordNet:
From Encarta's Dictionary:
From Webster's 10th Edition:
From Columbia Encyclopedia:
And so forth, and so on. Every serious work of reference uses the term creationism in the sense in which it is used here -- to describe the primarily Christian belief in the origins of the universe and life that is opposed to scientific explanations. It is only Rednblu who has been campaigning here for weeks to use creationism according to his pet definition, long after all participants in the debate had agreed on a useful structure. Sadly, Rednblu has managed to again cultivate dissent among the participants in the debate without regard for logic or evidence. —Eloquence 15:50, Aug 20, 2003 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article did [does] not mention the meanings suggested by the above mentioned encyclopedias explicitly right away. When as a newcomer I came into the picture, the meaning suggested was a generic one and that's why I participated at the spur of the moment, seeing such a major lacuna. You knew what creationism was, I didn't, but the article gave a wrong beginning impression- the point of the encyclopedia is to inform the ignorant person. Even now, you have introduced this concept only in the second sentence, I think it is still too late an introduction in an encylopedia.The different encyclopedia entries you mention are very clear about this in their very first sentence. As Uncle Ed says, all this 'hot air' is because of a lack of clarity in defining the subject matter at the very beginning. It is not a waste of time for you to counter every newcomer's arguments because the same ambiguity is bound to rise again and again with every new reader unless you see it from their eyes, which you can't- being into the subject
KRS 16:51, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I will be happy to do so: "[T]he mere existence of the creationism article in its present form speaks volumes to the fact that a significantly large and outspoken group of people think that Eloquence is categorically wrong." When it comes to the issue of creationism vs. evolution, I agree with virtually everything that you have to say on the subject. To wit, I have engaged many creationists in heated debate and debunked my fair share of straw man arguments in the process, but I am not prepared to dismiss all creationists as kooks.
That's not true. I pointed this out previously when I cited Webster's New World Dictionary wherein creationism is clearly defined as a theological concept that is totally distinguishable from creation science. To wit, Webster's entry for creationism makes no reference whatsoever to Christianity or the Bible, whereas the entry for creation science does. However, creationism and scientific creationism have become more or less synonymous in common usage, and it is our job as Wikipedians to explain that the two terms do not mean the same thing.
It's like I'm looking in a mirror. Perhaps you would have more "time for this" if you spent less time engaging in the very rhetoric that you seem to find so reprehensible. -- NetEsq 17:30, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
The dictionary that I cited does not "miss the modern usage of creationism." Rather, it lists creationism and creation science side by side as separate entries; after reading both entries, any intelligent person would come to the inescapable conclusion that creation science is a particular type of creationism that is sui generis. To wit, "a theory, concerning the origin of the universe, which states that the literal biblical account of creation can be scientifically verified: essentially rejects Darwinism and much of modern scientific thought, esp. in biology and geology." -- NetEsq 17:41, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
But he did. What we need is a place where the people neutral to this debate can put together a NPOV article or series of articles. Any ideas? The Creationism page does not seem to be available for development of a neutral article. We could start with Uncle Ed's outline. We could let all the people who like the current Creationism page be the final judges on whether we did a better page. I wonder what a NPOV page on Creationism would look like. Rednblu 02:22, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I have removed the following paragraph: "Ironically, the creationism debate, as part of the larger evolution debate ( which in turn is a part of the larger "science vs. religion" debate) is largely dispensed with--the scientific world has grown to be more respectful of spiritual life, and the religious world is mostly made of up non-literalists--people who value their religion for its moral values, and less for its literal-and-complete representation of fact."
This isn't correct; in fact, in the United States of America, the opposite is true. The creationism debate not only has not been dispensed with, but Christian fundamentalists in many states are in the process of a full frontal assault on science, by manipulating school boards, and threatening to unseat politicians who refuse to adavance their religious goals in public schools. Organized groups are trying to force school boards to promote Biblical fundamentalist religion in Biology classes. The fact that most scientists respect religion is irrelevant to many religious fundamentalists; the respect is not often returned, and many still view the study of evolution as Satanic. RK 12:23, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
There have been many articles on this issue from CSICOP and Skeptic magazine. In addition, see these websites:
<<Stop trying to force English speaking people to change the way they speak English, in order to further your religious and political agenda.>>
I do not object to you calling me POV or mischaracterizing us as having a "religious or political" agenda. How about the following as grounds upon which we can talk? We need an unofficial place in Wikipedia where we could develop a NPOV article on Creationism. You can control the official Creationism page. Uncle Ed has some great ideas, NetEsq has some great ideas, and you have some great ideas. We could develop a NPOV article on Creationism. I am sure of it. Rednblu
What I mean by NPOV is that the whole article would characterize as faithfully as possible what the various people have said--without homogenizing the points-of-view. As an experiment, I with the help of many others put together the atomism page to illustrate NPOV on a highly incendiary subject. Rednblu 15:24, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
This page desperately needs an Arguments for Creationism section to go after the Arguments against evolution section, but I'm not qualified to write it. Populus 16:13, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
<<Creationism is the belief, based on a literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible (Genesis), that God created the universe and all life within it, especially mankind. In this sense, creationism has its origin in the Hebrew Bible and classical Judaism, and was adopted early on in Christianity.>>
Those statements follow the definitions in several very Biblecentric dictionaries. To say that the "belief that God created the universe" is based on Genesis is one interesting POV. But that Biblecentric POV is as ridiculous as saying that "law" is based on the Ten Commandments. Some creationism is based on the Bible. And some is not--according to the various scholars that spend much of their time with such matters.
In any case, we should not be deciding one POV versus another. We should record the varieties of POVs and the way that they have evolved in history--and ascribe the various POVs to the generous men who invented those different POVs. Rednblu 01:39, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
According to Webster's New World Dictionary:
-- NetEsq 04:25, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
"Murray Eden showed that it would be impossible for even a single ordered pair of genes to be produced by DNA mutations in the bacteria, E. coli,?with 5 billion years in which to produce it! His estimate was based on 5 trillion tons of the bacteria covering the planet to a depth of nearly an inch during that 5 billion years. He then explained that the genes of E. coli contain over a trillion (1012) bits of data. That is the number 10 followed by 12 zeros. *Eden then showed the mathematical impossibility of protein forming by chance. He also reported on his extensive investigations into genetic data on hemoglobin (red blood cells). " [5]
Isn't "public schools" a bit ambiguitous in UK/English ? Ericd 23:36, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I suggest replacing the first paragraph of the article with a disambiguation notice based on the Webster's 10th edition and OED definitions above, along the lines of:
I use divine agency to avoid the culturally biased term God. By the way, the article creationism (theology) should not redirect here, the previous content should be restored, and a similar dismbiguation notice added. Any comments? -- Miguel
However, if I might suggest, could we develop this very different kind of page somewhere else like in the UserSpace so that it would not have the appearance of Us winning against Them. At the end we could have something to compare with the current Creationism page and everybody could vote on their preference. Maybe? Rednblu 01:02, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)
--
Well, I am acknowledging that you received three thank yous from some people who have used some harsh words in denouncing what certain very smart and very eloquent people people have done in keeping the
Creationism page locked into its current look, format, and content. In my opinion, all of us, whether for or against the current
Creationism page have a goal of making the
Creationism page better. I would say that you are on the side of making the
Creationism page better.
I can see the advantages of agreeing on a "reference version"--now that you point them out. All of the UserTalk comments would be in one place automatically. How about this for a plan? We start with the agreement on a "reference version" as you suggested. And if an edit war starts, we then move the page development to somewhere else such as a UserSpace. Just an idea. Let's not give up on developing a better Creationism page just because an edit war starts over the Creationism page. I would hate to see so much intellectual promise go to waste just because of this genetic hunger to defend the territory that all of us men inherited from the ancestors of the chimpanzees. ;)) Rednblu 15:29, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)
One more general comment about the procedure. I suspect that, as the page is revised from top to bottom, inconsistencies or redundancies may arise. I suggest that allowing redundancy is good, and that material from further down in the page can be copied into the newly rewritten section, and changed in the section being rewritten if necessary. Inconsistencies requiring only minor modifications can be repaired immediately, but for major modifications I suggest discussing them here first. As the rewrite progresses, we will eventually get to everything. -- Miguel
How about let's work ideas for the Introduction here on the Talk page. Then when we have what we think is a good idea, one of us will integrate the idea we have developed here with the text in the current Introduction, making sure that the worthy comments from the past end up on some page here in Wikipedia. Any ideas?
Rednblu 16:02, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I have made an edit to the introduction to the page. Describing pre-scientific creationist beliefs as a "product of their era" seems insulting to modern-day creationists. Just because it's an old idea doesn't in itself make it wrong -- Robert Merkel 07:39, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)
With the reinstatement of the article at creationism (theology), I was able to recapitulate some public domain material there that should help flesh out the topic of creationism in the context of theology. I invite all interested parties to review and/or mercilessly edit the material that I have added to that article before I attempt to add more. -- NetEsq 20:58, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I would suggest the following structure:
Concerning the matter of non-Christian creationists in the anti-Darwin sense, I think these should not be excluded from the creationism article.
Concerning the question of whether the discussion of the evolution arguments, the arguments against or for creationism, or any other part of the current creationism page should be moved away, I propose the general rule that if any of these sections dominates the article and the maximum article size of 32K is exceeded, this section is briefly summarized, with a link to a more extensive discussion in a separate article.
Concerning the recently added disambiguation intro, I have no strong objections to it, but it may place too much emphasis on a specific Catholic doctrine that is of little relevance to the majority of our readers. Perhaps it would be better to highlight the page creation beliefs prominently in the intro and to have a less prominent disambiguation notice for creationism (soul) in the head of the page. Does this sound like a fair and reasonable proposal to the participants? —Eloquence 20:01, Aug 24, 2003 (UTC)
--
* Creationism will be primarily used to discuss the following: ** history of the anti-Darwinian creationist movement (as per the "origin of the universe/life/everything" definition of creationism)
<<* Creation beliefs will be used to describe detailed theological models that have been put forward by different religions to explain our origins.>>
<<* Creationism (theology) or perhaps, better, Creationism (soul), will be used to develop the doctrine concerning the origin of the soul. If we use Creationism (soul), we can redirect Creationism (theology) to Creation beliefs.>>
23:08, 25 Aug 2003 . . Rei (Reverted: Jecar, the goal is to *remove* POV, not to add it.) My full apologies if I have done something wrong but I fail to see how the removal of a duplicated word could in any way be perceived as adding "POV". Jecar.
Perhaps an article on a religious belief should only include religious points for and against that belief? Arguments from scripture and such? There is the belief in that the world was created as described in Genesis. That's a religious belief. Then there is the purported science, that attempts (and fails, I believe) to give a scientific grounding to that religious belief.
I propose having one article on Creationism for the Genesis-based creation myth, and another article on creation science. The term "creation science" is well used (63,000 hits), and unambiguously refers to the purported science. Then we add in creationism (soul) for the Catholics, creation belief for a general overview of creation myths around the world. Martin 10:13, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I understand that some proponents of the theory of evolution consider "creation science" to be misleading. Similarly, some proponents of Holocaust revisionism consider "Holocaust denial" to be misleading. These concerns should be taken into account, but they are not the whole story. However, given your objection I take back my specific suggestion with respect to titles. Martin 12:57, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Its best to have a disambiguation page as for 'English'. I brought this issue for discussion in a general sense in the village pump- referring to cases such as calculus, Tajmahal, architecture etc., But the solution suggested- to qualify every meaning in a bracket- seemed to me inadequate. After this there was not much reaction, probably because I am a newbie:-)
Here the primary tussle is which meaning is more important than the other or is the 'first among equals'. This cannot be resolved by any discussion, each person[especially two] thinks his POV is correct. It is therefore best to have a very short creationsim disambiguation page which will redirect to creationism[creation science] and creationism [theology]--- KRS 14:01, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Why not have two sections which cite examples/ proof so that other participants who are not active but like to have a say in the final NPOV :-) get more knowledge on this. Some of this exists, but it can be organised like in a vote. Each one can cite their sources, so that the dubiousness of Internet- related info can be verified by everyone interested KRS 14:08, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
An important point which seems to be missing in many such cases[ actually only one I know of till now-a small part of the tussle of New imperialism was due to this]is the etymology. All this debate can be resolved when while creating a page with a predominant meaning, one brings out at first its etymology. Then the redirect can go to the historical meaning from the etymology. Thus justice is done both the current meaning and the historical meaning KRS 14:16, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
<<The term "creation science" is perceived as an oxymoron by many in the anti-creationist movement, so choosing it as a title would not be neutral.>>
While the debate rages above this header, let's try to get something positive out of it by working on the Introduction. It would be productive to focus the discussion on what this section should say. Here's the current version. -- Miguel
I would personally subscribe to this introduction in its entirety, and I think so would Eloquence (because he wrote it?). It seems that NetEsq, Rednblu and RK have serious issues with it, and it would be great if they proposed specific additions, subtractions or modifications here. I can't quite figure out where Ed stands on this one (but that's a statement about me, not about him). I apologize if I missed anyone.
IMHO, we should strive to quickly agree on a final form for this introduction. The point is that anything that, once we agree to an introduction, any remaining material which is inconsistent with the introduction will have to be moved to another page! (The introduction can be changed later if the need arises, of course) This will help focus the discussion of the relation of this page to other pages. -- Miguel
Let me just say that I am, and have always been, perfectly willing to strive for compromise concerning the structure of the article. I, NetEsq, Mkmcconn and others arrived at the present compromise a few weeks ago in mutual consensus. It is only then that Rednblu joined the debate and tried to alter the structure so he can create an article about creationism that philosophically matches the article on atomism he has written. Nobody else has had any complaints about the structure at this point.
Since then, Rednblu has been tirelessly campaigning against "evolutionist censors", worked on unnecessary page forks and wasted everyone's time. Even NetEsq's main complain, as I understand it, was simply that the original theological meaning of creationism concerning the origin of souls was not given proper attention. It is only Rednblu who wants to fundamentally restructure the relevant pages, not to adopt the pages to the modern and traditional meanings of the word creationism, but to make them reflect his personal philosophical interpretation thereof.
Rednblu has been entirely unwilling to work for compromise and insisted on his preferred structure so far, while everyone else in the debate has worked to achieve consensus. His major contribution to the debate is to try to create "factions" who attack each other. He is trying to seed the kind of mistrust and paranoia that he needs to establish his point of view.
At this point, I think the most reasonable course of action for all concerned parties would be to ignore Rednblu and to simply carry on improving both the structure and content of the relevant articles. Don't play his game. —Eloquence 21:08, Aug 26, 2003 (UTC)
Personally, I think it's more important to fill in the details at places like Young Earth Creationism and panspermia. Also, rather easier... :) Martin 23:17, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
One question. Wouldn't it make more sense to define creationism at wiktionary:creationism? Is there a place on wiktionary for wikipedians to say "we're having a semantic dispute here - help!"? Martin 23:19, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I think we all agree that creation beliefs is for religous dogma, with no rebuttals. (Those 'crazy religious people' believe some astonishing things, ain't it a hoot? one might say.)
An article on creationism might focus on the Christian (esp. Anglo-American) assertion that God created the world AND the living creatures AND people, in contradiction to the evolutionist view. Whether or not this needs rebuttal is still an open question at Wikipedia as of late August 2003.
I believe that creation science or scientific creationism is the school of thought which:
Summing up, I daresay that we contributors
-- Uncle Ed 13:55, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I offer the following as an attempt to develop consensus on what the beginning and Introduction of the Creationism page might be.
I have cut out specific authors, such as [Author1]¸ and specific quotes, such as [Assertion1], to assist those who reject specific authors as being "creationist," for whatever reason. Fill in your own sources and quotes!
I suggest we edit this beginning and introduction between the container marks here on this TalkPage to minimize edit wars. Let's see what we have. Rednblu 21:04, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Creationism refers to a religious belief in creation by a divine agency, primarily:
This article discusses the second meaning.
For the various stories of how creation happened, see Creation beliefs.
For an exposition of the conflicts of creationism with science, see Creation science.
This article is specifically about the various creationism outlooks on theology and the duty that people owe to the divine agency that created them.
Creationism, attributing the origin of the universe to creation by a divine agency, is at least as old as the writings of [Author1] in [YY1] BC and [Author2] in [YY2] BC. Creationist scholars differ widely in characterizing the role of the divine agency in the affairs of this earth. Some creationists, such as [Author3], assert that the divine agency hears their daily prayer and will intercede in daily events to make things turn out right. Other creationists, such as [Author4], assert that the divine agency created the universe many aeons ago and has not intervened in events since that initial creation.
There are creationist scholars that follow many different religious beliefs, including Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, [Religion1], Christianity, and many others. Some creationists, such as [Author5], are highly critical of all organized religions and make assertions like [Assertion1] and [Assertion2]. And across that broad spectrum of religious beliefs, creationists over the centuries have developed many different views of theology and of the duty that people owe to the divine agency that created the universe and created them at least by starting the forces that gave them birth.
<<Second, Rednblu wants this article to discuss ethics (for lack of a better name), which I find amazing. >>
<<Third, I don't see why the essence of the broad spectrum paragraph cannot be incorporated into the current introduction. However, Rednblu makes no attempt to salvage any of the current content.>>
--
<<As Britannica correctly states, creationism is at its core a counterevolutionary movement.>>
The current intro says, based on a literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible ( Genesis). The word, "literal", has baggage that the article has difficulty sustaining from the start to the end. Mkmcconn \
Or, does it? I'm sorry to throw this twist in; on the other hand, there is ambiguity that I would like cleared up:
Which sense of "literal" is being chosen, 1, or 2? Mkmcconn 00:31, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Strangely enough for a religious believer, I find myself more allied with Eloquence on the issue of what "creationism" should be defined as. I think that in the last 100 years, creationism has come to carry the connotation of Bible-based Christianity, specifically Anglo-American, Protestant and even fundamentalist.
How we distinguish this current of thought from other religious views about Creation is an open question.
But there is a school of thought which has been battling the evolutionists (mostly in America) for many decades now, and what they believe in is possibly best identified as Creationism. I'm suggesting that religious beliefs that are not in a fight with evolutionists could be relegated to the creation beliefs article.
By the way, it might be interesting for our readers to distinguish between the ex nihilo or "out of nothing" variant of Creation dogma, and other religious views of Creation. Unfortunately, the only creation doctrine I know well is Unificationism, which denies ex nihilo (where God got the matter or energy is another story -- best put in creation beliefs, eh?). -- Uncle Ed 13:13, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I was just following the changes in intro till now, but today I happened to notice that there has been a major change in the body of the article for quite some time[ a few days?]- I think not by anyone who has been active in the Talk page. Wasn't there a discussion on what should come in creation beliefs and what should come in creationism?But now there is a lot of info on Creation beliefs such as Flat earth and Geocentrism. I am getting even more confused now. Are we including scientific beliefs/ theories also? I don't think we should. Then I would again like to bring in my Hindu angle:-)Just because in earlier times- such as the so-called Medieval ages-religion and science were intertwined, doesn't mean that scientific theories with limited knowledge of the universe should be confused as religious beliefs. In that case, before Copernicus' contribution or Galileo's famous quote-'It still moves', there is authentic evidence that the Indian scientist Aryabhatta had propounded a helio-centric theory, and most Indians know about it.But we w[c]ouldn't call it the Hindu theory of creation w[c]ould we? I am sure that there were some people in this discussion who didn't want creation beliefs discussed here, but now we seem to have that as well as scientific theories. KRS 13:26, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)
--
<<Whether it is a little or a lot it does not fit here- even one is a lot in this case. What I meant by lot was the whole section- flat earth, geocentrism, etc.,which comes just at the beginning.>>
I think the spectrum of beliefs between creationists and opponents of creationism is very relevant to this page. Perhaps I should clarify that by geocentrism, Isaak and Scott are referring to modern geocentrists. The rest of that section I can take or leave. I've moved it below for comment. Martin
<<I think the reason that this scale of beliefs is recounted here, is because it describes various degrees of belief about the "scientific relevance" of the very words of the Bible.>>
--
<<Creationism is an exercise in apologetics in the arena of science (not theology, and not science: religious people writing about science, and scientists writing about religion with the aim of harmonization or refutation of specific arguments, to legitimize a specific point of view)>>
--
<<Do you agree with this flow of thought?>>
Have changed the sequence so that 1] Meaning 2]Introduction 3]Defining creationism [appropriate after end of Introduction (about new meaning in USA) as well as informing about various types/ conflicting views]4]Spectrum of beliefs- continuing the various types 5] creationism and evolutionism.....- KRS 17:52, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Have changed first para by including all POVs- anyone can link anywhere. 1. already existing- general definition 2. added that it is predominantly used in Judaeo-Christian world- predominantly is not restrictive, other religions are not excluded. 3. already existing- specific usage to living forms[ what about the flat earth,geocentric beliefs the?]I have left it as it is, but depending on whether you want to add flat earth, etc., you can decide 4. already existing- theology- soul- etc., 5. added- modern day usage which is already there but elsewhere. As some experts in religion also feel that this meaning overrides most historical ones, this has to be included at the beginning.
So 5 POVs, any more?
Any problems?-- KRS 19:20, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Also merged Introduction para and Defining Creationism para- they have a continuity in terms of discussion of meaning. KRS 19:29, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)
<<Though creation beliefs exist in most religions, the term is more generally used in the context of the Judaeo-Christian world because of its origins.>>
Mkmcconn, your removal of 'as opposed to impersonal processes of nature' is correct. It was a sentence which was already there, I didn't notice the difference. But now your removal seems to be correct because when creationism theory/ belief would have first made its appearance it is unlikely that there would have been scientific theories of evolution. So there would not have been anything that Creationism would have consciously wanted to oppose. KRS 09:06, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I have come to the conclusion that further participation in the creationism page is a waste of time. It would appear the overwhelming majority of people find it acceptable to delete factual representation of creationism beliefs because they don't meet their personal goals. There has also been several attempts to show both sides of the issue and these have fallen into one of two patterns. Where creationism shows weakness there is very unprofessional exploitation at the expense of creationists, and where creationism shows strength there is deletion or what is worse, more unproven theories are given as rebuttal.
By the way, I can't help but point out to all the pseudo-scientists that populate this page; two unproven theories that reach the same conclusion means nothing. Were math to be approached in such a manner we would've put all the mathematicians in treatment long ago.
Jtocci 09:55, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Jtocci, I don't object to the removal of the "Introduction" label, but I do think that we should keep some kind of demarcation between the disambiguating preface, and the main body of the material where we descend into details. What would you suggest as an alternative? Mkmcconn 15:07, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I don't think we need it in the intro. On the one hand, it does clarify what material is covered at creationism (theology), but anyone who knows what traducianism will already know what we're covering there. So we can tighten the thing further, like this. Martin 15:57, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
The first two sentences in the preface are good,especially the way the links come naturally. But you[ I mean generically- I no longer know who is specifically making each small bit of edit:-)]
...seem to have removed the Creationism[ theology]way of linking so there are 4 words 'creationism is the doctrine' serving as link. Can something be done about that? Most important problem is that the last sentence comes too abruptly. You describe creationism, and suddenly come to the creation controversy- the reader is clueless about this sudden creation controversy[someone pointed out that this new phenomenon is predominantly American so others wouldn't understand the context].I think the substance of my last sentence in the earlier preface can be reworded/ rephrased according to how you see fit wherein there is a description of how the new creationists see a direct challenge in science to their creation beliefs. You can easily make this in one sentence. KRS 16:53, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
KRS, do you have an idea for how to thin out the excursus (in the west, in the US, among fundamentalists) in the preface? The briefer, the better, as long as it's clear, I think. Mkmcconn 17:12, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I think the preface is looking really good. KRS is doing a great job and we have Mkmcconn to make sure we get our Christian theology right.
Accordingly, I have moved on to the Introduction. I think the characterization of the controversy and its history is a little simplistic. I have distinguished between Darwin's books Origin of Species and the later Descent of Man. The first one was only really controversial among naturalists (Continental Europe clung to Lamarckism for a really long time), it left plenty of room for God's acts of creation, and did not threaten man's position as God-appointed Lord of Creation. It was the second book that suggested that men and apes had common descent, and left no room for a literal interpretation of Genesis.
I have rearranged the section slightly, and now it doesn't quite seems as coherent as before. Please feel free to hack at it!
I have said that the overview of the controversy is a little simplistic because, from the outset (around 1800) it involves much more than the origin of species. There were huge controversies regarding the age of the Earth, as geologists were beginning to discover that Earth had to be at least hundreds of thousands of years old, not just thousands.
The controversy seems to involve primarily evolution, but that's just scretching the surface. Both creationists and mainstream scientists have been aware from the start that there is an interplay among astronomy, geology, biology, and anthropology when it comes to the problem of origins, and that often evolution is not attacked on biological grounds, but by undermining some other science's "theory of origins". For this reason, I would be happier if the article did not stress evolution as the only point of contention.
-- Miguel
I have done some reorganisation. Hack away as you please. I want to get out of this:-)--- KRS 18:27, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)
--- I am pleased to find that despite my edit conflict with Martin - losing three paragraphs of changes-- that his edits and mine were quite close, and indeed his were improved over mine own. Thus I am satisfied. :)- 戴眩sv 19:09, Aug 30, 2003 (UTC)
Martin, you have added so much information on moderate creationism after disambiguating in the preface. Isn't it inappropriate?- KRS 04:36, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Martin points out - Do arguments against evolution support creationism? The answer - Nope. Arguments against evidence for biological evolution only could prove that the mechanisms described by scientists are not at play, and that some other mechanism is at play. That's it. These other mechanisms could (in theory) be some form of science we don't understand or know about; they could be a form of magick; they even could be the workings of the Greek and Norse pagan gods! But refuting evidence for evolution does not automatically give logical support for Christian, or any other form of, creationism. However, it seems that most Protestant Christians in the USA are pretty sure that evidence against evolution somehow is evidence for creationism, if not outright proof. Its not strictly logical, but its commonly held. RK 23:12, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I don't think we need it in the intro. On the one hand, it does clarify what material is covered at creationism (theology), but anyone who knows what traducianism will already know what we're covering there. So we can tighten the thing further, like this. Martin 15:57, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Martin, hiding links, as you did with traducianism, is generally a bad usability practice. It should be clear from a link title what page I'm going to end up on. —Eloquence 02:50, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)
In spite of Eloquence's sarcasm-[Good work -less coherent?:-)] and also because of his additions now, I think there is some amount of coherence now in the preface and in the historical overview- especially now that the last para of the historical overview outlines the current definition.I hope that no one tampers with it now without discussion on the talk page. But just to add some more controversy:-)[ Mkn..please note] now that the creationism[ theology] is built into the introduction, because the link has the same name as the page do you think people would follow such a link? [I am just raising this question from my objective point of view, objective because I have nothing at stake and I don't know any POV] Otherwise, I think one can move further to the next section.-- KRS 05:20, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
How about something more like this:
Mkmcconn 18:27, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I would like to thank everyone for laboring over the creationism article while I rested! It begins better, and reads more smoothly. Hats off to User:Rednblu who apparently abstained from the process for awhile.
One area of weakness remains: the treatment of intelligent design is little better than a rebuttal: it's almost entirely an argment against, and contains hardly any information about ID itself. The central thrust of ID, its contention that life shows "signs of having been designed" or its appeal to the concept of irreducible complexity, are both hard to find in the article as of Sept. 2nd 2003.
But otherwise, great work! -- Uncle Ed 17:59, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
The tone of the web site mentioned above is rather polemic. It doesn't do the whole debate a favor basically calling religious people liars, asking some rhetoric questions and then telling stories which may or may not be true. The other two references under evolution are of good quality. Isn't it possible to handle the whole stuff a bit less emotional? There are surely other good web pages. JackH 14:35, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I put the pro and con arguments in a table. They are mere outlines and need considerably more flesh. Neither pros or cons are really convincing unless more details are given. Who could help? -- JackH 10:42, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Eloquence seems to think still that the Arthur site is a valuable resource against creationism. I do not share this view. The article cites the page as if it is an authoritative thing and even does a generalisation about all creationists as beeing similar to Gish who is severly bashed. This is not decent style. In fact Eloquence has wiped out such a tiny remark of mine as that labels the Arthur page as an example of an anti-creationist page. Really weird. He depicted the remark as 'POV'. However Eloquence may have it his way. There are other things to do ;-)
describe your links (but on both sides). Martin 22:03, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)
OK, I'll drop the issue attributing the Jocye reference. Perhaps somebody other might pick this up.
A summary for those who didn't follow the discussion: Eloquence deleted my attribute to the Joyce reference which was worded as follows.
A particular example of an anti-creationist page.
Contrariwise he seems to think it is necessary to tell the readers that Joyce reference is a "critical review". In fact it is a primitive elaborate just bashing a creationist. The whole thing is cited in the wp article as if this is something authoritative. One would expect that we find the results of an effort of careful work not just hate-speech like the one above by Eloquence. If this is anti-creationism at it's best - well then .... :-) But why do we label this as critical? It is not so much the reference as such but the use of the reference which I think is not OK. Let's look at the individual arguments in the future.
--
JackH 14:02, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Would a Creationist or two, of differning views, please explin to me why, or if, Creationists believe that God didn't create the world complete with all of the scientific evidence to stimulate man, just as the many beautiful aspects of the world do so. It's surely within the capability of an omnipotent god to do so, so why isn't this answer used to eliminate the conflict between Creationism and science and have scientists be exploring the world god created for them to explore?
I am very curious to find out where the original question was first originated from. The fact remains, from a majority of Creationists POV, that God (AND please remember to capitalize this as it is a proper noun refering to a single entity; as apposed to god which could refer to any given entity other than the one in question - Jehovah) did in fact create the world full of scientific evidence to display His power. I guess the point here to be made is that God made man to serve Him and not vice-versa. With this in mind God created the earth and all that entails for His pleasure - Man being His greatest creation. "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let him rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." see Genesis 1:26 God did create man to rule over the earth. Actually, most translations would say God created man to be a caregiver - to watch over creation. A farmer takes care of his crop. A man takes care of his family. It is both a responsibility and, in a majority of the cases, an incredible joy. Therefor, it seems quite clear that the earth was created to "stimulate" us into learning more about the world around us. The problem that arises in the issue is not Creationism vs Science, but in fact Creationism vs Evolutionism. A point to ponder: Science is not without uncertainties. The problem arises when we as human beings want to be able to explain everything. How many stars are in the universe? What exactly is at the core of our planet? What are the other planets in our solar system composed of? Are there other inhabitabal planets in other systems? The fact is we do not know. The best we can offer is an educated guess based on what we do know. Call it what you want. Evolutionism is still a type of faith. It is a faith in the evolving process of creation. Creationism is the faith in a God who has the power to create a universe even down to the smallest atom. The term "literal" I would suggest to most Creatinists would mean God's creation of the earth in 6 days (please note that in Genesis God rested on the 7th day). Nhishands4ever
Argument number 6 on the evolutionist side gives a reference - [1]. Could somebody specifiy which link is meant? -- JackH 16:00, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I just tweaked the historical section again. I realize there is a disagreement in the interpretation of the facts, and the motivation of the actual events. So let's debate this ourselves in the talk page. Let me spell out my POV on this, so we can discuss it while I look for references to fully document it.
My idea is to frame the evolution/creation debate withing the larger question of the "problem of origins" (which should have its own page). Religious cosmologies are not limited to the origin of the species of living things, and humanity in particular, but include accounts of the origin of the Earth, and untimately the whole universe, more or less detailed depending on ow explicit the description of the actual cosmology is. Scientific theories of origins are similarly broad in scope.
Regarding the origin of the Earth (and the solar system), at the turn of the 19th century, Laplace put forth his theory of planetesimals. There is a famous anecdote in which Laplace recounts his theory to Napoleon, and remarks that God isn't a necessary hypothesis.
At around the same time, geologists were starting to discover that the Earth could not possibly be 6,000 years old, for a variety of reasons. See The Map That Changed the World: William Smith and the Birth of Modern Geology.
Also around this time, Lamarck's theory of evolution by inheritance of acquired characteristics was widely accepted, and there was no significant religious debate presumably because there was no concept of speciation, and more importantly, because nobody dared postulate a common origin for men and beasts.
When Darwin (himself an ordained minister) came along, the controversy was not with Christian cosmology, but with Lamarckism. This is actually the origin of the modern debate on macro/microevolution, on speciation as an observable phenomenon, etc.
It is only when Darwin applies his theory to humans that the religious debate starts in earnest. However, already in the 18th century Linnaeus had classified humans among the apes, but putting humans in a genus (homo) containing a single species. The point is that Darwin was not the first to challenge man's unique position in creation, but he was the first to do so in a way that was obvious to most people, which ignited the debate.
In the late 19th century, the geological dating of the Earth ran into trouble because it was impossible to explain where the sun could get the energy to shine for so long. The discovery of radioactivity solved this particular problem, dealing the final blow to young earth theories and also providing the basis for radioactive dating.
By the turn of the 20th century evolution is widely accepted, and the intensity of the religious debate is rather low. The creationist movement experiences a resurgence in the US around WWI. If I am not mistaken this coincides with the birth of the modern fundamentalist christians.
But the problem is that, by this time, the scientific debate has moved on. The fundamentalists were about 100 years late to influence the discussion of the scientific theories. Even their opposition to Darwin's theory is of a different character than the Victorian opposition.
Anyway, the current historical overview actually covers the prehistory of creationism (understood as an offshoot of fundamentalist christianity). A history of creationism since about 1915 is sorely lacking. -- Miguel
I feel that the whole issue of creationism cannot be discussed properly without considering what the Bible actually says about creation in the two stories at the beginning of the Book of Genesis. I hope that other readers and contributors will find this of interest and use. (MG)
I would like to reiterate my point above. Creationism cannot be discussed properly unless we consider what the Bible actually says in the two creation stories. Then, and only then, is it possible to consider critically how the two stories are interpreted by various parties, both Creationist and not.(MG)
I believe that it is important to list people who have changed their mind on the subject, as it can help people gain new insights and understand certain arguments. Both creationists and evolutionists certainly point to ex-creationists and ex-evolutionists to make their point. Of course, only reasonably important people where their change of mind is well-documented should be put on the respective lists. Glenn Morton, for example, is well known in creationist circles, Michael Denton is a published author, David Fasold an (in-)famous researcher who tried to find Noah's Ark, Edward Babinski an outspoken critic of creationism. I have removed Michael Bragg, who does not seem to have published much on the subject besides his initial explanation. —Eloquence 20:32, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I understand that there are different opinions regarding the length of the link section. Isn't it a WP policy to have a few well selected links for each article? The quality of the article does not improve if the link section grows and grows. Instead of answering questions the reader is referred to find out himself. It means a lot of work to maintain link sections and WP is meant to convey more stable information.
Eloquence: Do you really want me to add another round of let's say 12 links showing people who once were evolutionist and now are creationists. No, ridiculous! Please do you link work for example on www.dmoz.org or your own homepage. You put in some more links I do not want. What has this to do with vandlism? Plz answer? ~~----
If you are going to look at what people make of the Bible, it makes sense to look at what the Bible says before discussing how people interpret it. It is difficult to decide the ordering of the article, but putting interpretations of the Bible before looking at what the Bible says strikes me as putting the cart before the horse.
I notice that someone removed a sentence where I pointed out that many modern translations of Genesis effectively conceal one of the differences between the two stories with a non-literal translation of the word 'day' in Genesis 2:4b. What was the problem?
Also I noticed the sentence where I said that creationists have to explain the differences between the two creation stories, or ignore them was removed. Fair enough. If creationists can ignore this issue, there is nothing to explain!
Two Q&A's from the article:
10. " The "equation" for intelligent life is IL = information + matter + energy."
Answer - " For intelligent life to develop outside information is not necessary IL = matter + energy + a stochastic process "
11. "Nearly all mutations are destructive. Biochemical processes are reversible."
Answer - "The fact that we have life on earth cleary shows that evolution happend and that the gradual mutations and the selection process were sufficient."
Since this is a contentious issue, I'd appreciate comments before touching anything. Oh, and I'm sorry that the formatting of this question is rubbish, but I'm tired and I want to go to bed. Cheers. -- Onebyone 01:08, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Creationism properly does not belong under evolution. If evolutionists want an article to refute the claims of creationism, then there should either be a section under evolution or an article specifically titled “evolutionary answers to creationism” or similar title.
The article on creationism should be written by creationists, not evolutionists. Then there should be a section or a separate article written by creationists to refute claims by evolutionists. All articles should be interlinked so that a person has all sides of the issue available to him.
(Evolutionists should want to do this, then they could stand on the sidelines and amuse themselves as they watch creationists tear each other apart: young earth creationists do not consider old earth creationists true creationists, while old earth creationists often use the same vitriol as used by many evolutionists against young earth creationists, and so forth. But I doubt evolutionists could keep their hands off long enough to be amused.)
Based on my experience, I doubt this suggestion will be enacted upon, as evolutionists, in particular militant evolutionists, do not want an honest discussion where people can exercise critical thinking, rather they want a population who have been indoctrinated into only one side of the issue; their side.
kwr.
A quick look at creationism (theology) will show that creationism is properly a theological topic, whereas the present article is more aptly named "creation science" and/or "scientific creationism." Needless to say, Eloquence will disagree with my position, asserting that the titles "creation science" and "scientific creationism" are not NPOV. While I certainly understand the hostility Eloquence has towards creation scientists, I am baffled by his assertion that the titles I prefer are somehow not NPOV, particularly in light of the aptly-titled Wikipedia articles junk science and pathological science. Agreed, creation science is *NOT* actually scientific, but this position is argued forcefully in the body of this article. -- NetEsq 18:19, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I disagree. Creationism is theology. Sounds as though the content of Creationism (theology) may need to be merged into theis article or vice-versa. Scientific creationism is a title which doesn't make a lot of sense to me and creation science is a completely different field of study, that of the non-theological origin of the creation of the world. Jamesday 05:44, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Yes. There is nothing scientific about creationism. see philosophy of science. See this article for how creationists are either ignorant or dishonest. Anyway, yes, this should be moved to creation science, as that's self-identification. Howevre, it should make it absolutely clear in the first paragraph that the scientific community considers it to be pseudoscience, and dishonest. Duncharris 16:52, May 8, 2004 (UTC)
I think it is fair enough to use whichever term Scientic Creationists are happy to apply to themselves, and to point out in the introduction that non-creationsists dispute the "scientific" part - just as in "Christian Science".
Rmalloy 00:09, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
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The frequent use of the pejorative term "fundamentalist" and the serious-toned grouping of creationists with fringe "flat earthers" and "geocentrists" (taken from an anti-creation source) makes the article clearly NOT NPOV and shows a subtle effort to create a straw man. -- Pollinator 18:59, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Can someone split this page to a manageable size and archive the older section?
Is there any interest or any point to my adding a response to the claims of irreducible complexity? Skeetch 04:45, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)
Is it possible to separate creationism from creation science? -- Miguel 21:36, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)
If you have to split, do it by section:
Leave a summary in place in the main article of each of these sections. See the country pages as an example. —Eloquence 22:47, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)
Wikipedians may be interested in the article that I've just submitted on the Ussher-Lightfoot Calendar, beloved of Young Earth Creationists. - ChrisO 00:44, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
A recent edit added "Creationists and Darwinists have a different ontology, each making a fundamental assumption which is outside the realm of science." This statement is not backed up later in the edit, though. Creationists must necessarily make the assumption that a god exists. This can be seen as an assumption that is "outside the realm of science". I don't see what non-scientific assumption the darwinists are making, though? A further point to note on this edit is that it reverts my change to the sentence " Materialistic Evolutionism [...] accepts the theory of evolution, but denies the existence of any divine agency." I changed the "but" to "and". The "but" implies the POV that accepting the theory of evolution is usually done while believing in the existence of a god. The "and" on the otherhand just states that they hold both positions without implying anything. -- snoyes 19:57, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I ( snoyes) moved the following here, as there is no evidence given that this statement is factually correct.
" Adolf Hitler was a believer in the doctrines of Thomas Malthus which also heavily influenced early evolutionists."
Linking Hitler to Malthus to Darwin in this manner seems kind of silly. First of all, this is the first time I ever heard that Hitler was directly affected by Malthus. Wagner? Yes. Nietzsche? Yes. Malthus, an English economist and so forth? Hitler usually attributed his influences to Germans. Secondly, Malthus's ideas applied to humans whereas Darwin took those ideas and fixed them on animals. And Malthus merely fleshed out economic ideas which were prevalent in his day and shared by most economists of the day - and are still more or less shared by modern economists as far as I can see. I've removed this sentence, please cite where Hitler said this if you want to put it in. -- JohnWoolsey 11:25, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)
A few days ago I rewrote ONE section of the article to try and give a little expression of the Creationist viewpoint (which is supposedly what the page is about). I pretty much left alone the BULK of the page which is primarily an expression of anti-creationist viewpoints. Since then the anti-creationists have been progressively removing this tiny bit of creationist viewpoint, and replacing it with still more anti-creationist viewpoints. POV is running rampant here. The article would better be retitled 101 reasons why creationists are all extremist Neanderthals. I've removed some un-fair and un-balanced proselytizing and pejorative edits by an anti-creationist and restored some of the key points of creationist belief. This page is about Creationism, folks. Apparently many think the only expression allowed on the Creationism page is that of anti-Creationists, and key points of Creationist viewpoints are not to be allowed. I've kept the edit by JohnWoolsey, as an explanation was given on the talk page, and we can revisit this later. Pollinator 17:16, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I'm listing this page on Cleanup. It's some of the worst POV I've ever seen. silsor 00:26, Feb 12, 2004 (UTC)
I'd also like to either remove the Christian-centrism, or move this article to Christian creationism. silsor
What do you think about capitalizing? Personally I think capitalizing Creationism and related terms every time they show up is silly, not to mention clashes with the intro in which they are decapitalized. silsor
I have seven pages of archives to read. Moan. silsor
After having read the article and all of this commentary, it increasingly seems to me like it's trying to do too many things at once. I would actually suggest a total rewrite, replacing it with a much shorter article that simply describes how the term refers to an American political controversy without going into too much detail about the arguments of each side. I don't think Wikipedia is the place for political debates.
As suggested by other above, the religious aspects of the controversy can be addressed at creationsim (theology) and controversial aspects of evolutionary biology can be addressed at evolution (controversy). I'll be happy to write a draft of the revised article if others think it's a good idea. Jeeves 23:36, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I'm working on a rewrite of this page, to simplify it, express more accurately what creationism is, examine the driving forces of creationism, and bring it to a more NPOV. I do think the page is needed here. And it needs to have some input from wikipedians who have some understanding of creationism, not just from those who simply want to attack it. Pollinator 02:14, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Science is not about "controversy", or motive, it's about evidence. Those who want to attack creationism understand it perfectly well. " Geology shows that fossils are of different ages. Paleontology shows a fossil sequence, the list of species represented changes through time. Taxonomy shows biological relationships among species. Evolution is the explanation that threads it all together. Creationism is the practice of squeezing one's eyes shut and wailing 'does not!'" - Ialdaboath 02:30, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I suggest that any rewrite of this page narrow the defintion of creationism to Young and Old Earth Creationism. Theistic evolution and Deism are not forms of creationism, as per any the definition of creationism that I have ever come accross or even the definition of creationism in the first sentence of this article. The most common definition of creationism is a belief in a literal interpretion of Genesis. This would of course include YEC. OEC and Day Age would also apply as the literal interpretation still stands except for the length of the biblical day. Creation science is the effort to prove that creationism is factually accurate through science. So I believe that the article should define creationism and its subsets as it does today, then move on to the history as it does today, but focus more on the history of creationist though, notable creationists of history and the evolution :-) of creationism over time. Comparison of Genesis 1 and 2 and treatment of the documentary hypothesis should be ommited. This is an entry about creationism, not textual criticism or criticism of creationism. For NPOV the article should not delve into arguments either for or against the factuality of creationism, except for summaries of tje arguments of noted creationists. In that same vein, the article should not explicity or implicity try to refute creationism or try to diminish it as a worldview.Perhaps a singular link to a page that can refute said arugments. The interpretation of Genesis section should be changed to reflect the different positions of the main variants of creationism, YEC and OEC and its variants. There should be a history of creation science pre Darwin, then contemporary to Darwin, finally in the years since Darwin culminating with Edwards v. Aguillard, the rise of the ID movement and recent theschool board debates in Kansas, Ohio, Alabama etc. Common Descent and the age of the Earth should be briefly treated, as well as the distribution of creation. However, I would simply create timelines of each worldview for comparison and not offer any judgements on the validty of any of them. That way the reader can simply learn what each world view is and compare them. That would elminate needing sections on common descent, age of the earth, origin of the earth and humans, etc. Creationism in public schools can be covered in the history as described above.The philosophy section should probably just be removed. Then I would have a list of notable creationist and a brief summary of their position. The sections including and after Arguments against evolution should probably be edited down to the bare essentials. There need not be refuations of each creationist argument in tabular form. Most of the sections after this point are clearly POV and should be either removed altogether or redacted down to NPOV.-- JPotter 06:56, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Stating unequivocally that Genesis contains two creation accounts is POV. Most Christians I know believe that these "two accounts" are both the exact same story, with no contradictions. Things people see as "contradictions" we see as different details that were either focused on or left out. IMO, Genesis is a continuous narrative; the creation is described in general, then a summary statement is made and the author goes into more detail about the creation of man.
The list of events this article gives from the "two accounts" aren't contradictions. For example, the fact that the "first account" mentions the Sabbath and the second doesn't is not a contradiction; it just means that the author already mentioned it and saw no reason to repeat it at that point. The fact that the "second account" begins with the creation of man is not a contradiction; it means the author already described the creation of the universe and the earth and is now focusing in detail on the formation of man. (In fact, if you'll bother to read it, the supposed "second account," that uses YHWH Elohim begins in verse 4 by summarizing the creation of everything, describing the state of the world, and then digging in in more detail into the creation of man.)
Statements like "This is important because many people are not aware that the Book of Genesis contains two distinct versions of the story of creation," come off as saying, "Some people are so stupid that even though they read Genesis over and over again in their religious studies they've never noticed that there are contradictions." You just can't state as fact that there are two accounts here. You need to contextualize it by saying many people SEE it as two accounts.
Now that I've looked a little lower in the article, I see that it does talk about how these can be harmonized. But it still isn't right to begin with a "statement of fact" that there definitively ARE two accounts here; that is only somebody's opinion. And it's even worse to have the statement about "some people aren't aware of it." I'm fully aware that some people see this different from me; the fact is that I disagree with them, not that I am unaware.
Jdavidb 14:33, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Quite so, the statements in this regard should be NPOV. There is more general information on the proposition that there are two creation accounts in Genesis (specifically Gen. 1:1-2:3, "P," and then from 2:4-25, "J") at documentary hypothesis.
Fire Star 15:33, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I think the words creationism and creationist are loaded words. When used by scientists they are almost always meant derogatorily. As such, while an article called creationism might be appropriate, discussing the viewpoints of people who might fit into the category using words that are derogatory is certainly not.
Something easier to fix is to change the term creator God to divine creator. I find the second term less jarring. Ezra Wax 16:29, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Can someone provide the basis for the opening definition? I personally do not consider myself a creationist, nor do I think of God as a "first cause." But this definition seems anachronistic to me. In the United States, at least, I would bet that 99.99999% of the time a person refers to "creationism" or "creationists" they are referring to the belief that God created the different species; a view that is articulated expressly in opposition , or as an alternative, to Darwin's theory of the evolution of species through natural selection. When Aristotle (and later, St. Thomas, and even later, Mortimer Adler) articulated the argument of God as first cause, they were not engaging Darwin. Moreover, I know many people who accept Darwin's theory and believe that God created the universe. I am not saying they are right, and I am not inviting any argument on whether their position makes sense or not. I am just questioning whether this is an accurate definition. I don't think it is, and I have read a good deal about creationism, creation science, Darwin, and theology. If I am missing some major literature or debates, please let me know what and where they are! Slrubenstein
Is there any country except for the US where there is a sizeable creationist lobby, or where creationism has political support? I think we may safely say that US creationism is considered "weird" by the vast majority of Western Europeans. David.Monniaux 20:14, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The organization "Answers in Genesis" is based in Australia.
I think it's appropriate to have a blue box to link these articles together. Hopefully, that'll help with the naming disputes. I'll put it at {{msg:creationism}}. Feel free to edit it appropriately. Duncharris 18:05, May 2, 2004 (UTC)
This article is absolutely riddled with bias. Clearly the main contributors are people who loathe Creationism and probably Christianity in general; and that's unfortunate. Too bad the hate mongers win again. *shrugs* -- User:66.81.134.138
For evolution, we have started a list of popular science books on evolution. I think it would be good to have a similar list for creationism (or " non-evolutionary explanations for the diversity of life"), and we can link to it from the evolution list. I didn't notice any such list in this page. Is there one, and would anyone want to start a list similar to List of popular science books on evolution? Thanks. AdamRetchless 17:48, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I have rewritten that article from a redirect to evolution into an expanded dicdef of the word as I believe it is used by creationists as a general for us "evil atheists". Can someone check that that is what they think of it? Dunc_Harris| ☺ 00:00, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Nitpick here, but since when is Australia a Western nation?
What's with this?
Here I thought most scientists reject Creationism because of the overwhelming PHYSICAL evidence for an ancient universe and evolution over a long period of time, contrary to the creationist account. Obviously we can't say that "this is true" in a NPOV creationism article, but why assume this kind of insulting reasoning on behalf of "many scientists"? Is there any evidence to back up the claim that scientists "reject Creationism" only because gods can't be observed? -- User:130.91.65.76
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You are right. That paragraph is just another evolutionist fantasy without empirical justification. --- Rednblu 19:28, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The Creationism page continues to manifest the evolutionist syndrome of ignoring fact, inventing history, and censoring the attempts of the creationists to state what is true about Creationism.
A religion-neutral Wikipedia community would allow the Creationism page to develop the format of the Evolution page in stating the Theory of Creationism, with perhaps a few paragraphs at the end summarizing the opposition's rebuttals.
The opening section is nothing but an evolutionist tract and does not belong on Creationism. A religion-neutral definition might begin as follows by recognizing historical fact. [7]
Furthermore, why is it the evolutionists keep refusing to face the facts about Origin of Species? For example, the following sentence and similar prevarications continue to come back, recur, and revert all over Creationism.
That sentence is simply not true. Charles Darwin very carefully excluded the word evolution from the first five editions of Origin of Species. You can make a word search through the entire text of the First Edition of Origin of Species [8] and find that the word evolution does not appear even once. The creationists keep correcting this evolutionist distortion, but in Wikipedia as in most of the civilized world, the evolutionist censors win over fact. There is no use in even correcting the evolutionist distortions of fact; it is a waste of time. --- Rednblu 19:28, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
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Let's see if we could agree to a religion-neutral means of determining if there is such a thing as a "Theory of Creationism"? So let's look back in time to an explanation that was not in the modern sense "scientific" but was an explanation commonly adopted by mainstream scientists at that time.
Suppose that the explanation of phlogiston was commonly accepted by mainstream scientists in 1674 just about the time of J. J. Becher; no doubt J.J. wished that were so in 1674. :)) And let's suppose that for a hundred years nobody really made a test of the phlogiston idea--at least nobody made a test that would satisfy the scientific method. And let's suppose that in 1774 the Right Reverend Joseph Priestley, who definitely believed in God and preached God and preached Phlogiston, discovered oxygen and mistakenly called it "dephlogisticated air." And let's suppose that it was not until 1778 that Antoine Lavoisier devised an experiment that could make the phlogiston idea a verifiable assertion. And let's suppose that up until 1778, the mainstream scientists accepted the phlogiston idea as correct. Would you still assert that there was no Phlogiston Theory? Would you still contend that "there's no such thing as a Phlogiston Theory" merely because the fundamentalist preachers of today still believe it and preach it contrary to all empirical evidence and contrary to the efficiency principle of Occam's Razor? --- Rednblu 20:30, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure what relevance this has; it's of historical interest, sure. An article with a title of "Theory of Creation" has a scientific connotation, that's what I mean. There's not a scientific Creation (*sigh*) theory that stands up to all known facts. If someone called something a theory in the past because it was a theory based on the level of knowledge at the time, then yes, as a historical footnote you could call it that. But there the word has a different meaning, being that it's understood it's a historical usage. Not sure how you're relating the two, but there it is.
I agree with DJ below, just tell it how it is. -- DanielCD 21:41, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This article has got way out of hand. When people come to an article about a subject, they want to learn about that subject. The bulk of this article should be therefore about what Creationism is, and what Creationists believe. I suggest we try to do this without interrupting the flow every few lines with an intejection about why they are wrong. DJ Clayworth 20:45, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
A few changes: deleted the line "it's just a matter of calling different things by different names" as this statement is nonsensical. Here I added some clarifying comments. Deleted "so the relevance is unclear to evolution advocates" as this is wrong. Clarified. --- User:12.64.234.26 22:36, 18 Aug 2004
Also the example of Streptococcus pneumoniae is not a "destructive mutation" as it has aided the bacteria's survival. It may be destructive for us, but obviously not for the little bacterium.
Wow how does that happen? I make some additions, check back later and it's gone. History shows the change by my IP, 12.64.234.26, to be the current version yet it's the old version that comes up and there is no record of the deletion of my additions. Are there two, mirror wikis, is there a shadow editor or is it just a delayed wiki thing?
This is a great topic to work out a method and style for dealing with controversial topics. Any encyclopedia must include controversial topics. The alternative points of view are essential attributes of a controversial topic.
Controversies may contain more that two points of view. The development of the alternative points of view could be quite extensive (beyond the ability of one author or beyond the ability to be comprehended in one scrolling page).
The controversy would, presumably, be settled were it not for the continued introduction of new facts, findings and conclusions.
How does one maintain a NPOV while conveying accurately the best of the alternative points of view (APOV?)? Can the hypertext capability of a Wiki help organize the ever expanding set of facts and findings?
Here is a suggestion: A page might define a particular thesis, for example: evolution – specific differences between individuals in a species are more likely to survive and be reproduced due to preferential success in an environment (or whatever the best worded definition might be).
This would be elaborated with the underlying elements, e.g., There is a method of creating differences between individuals (e.g., mutation) Differences that help survival are sustained and differences that hurt survival fall away (e.g., natural selection) Banana slugs and humans are equally evolved since both exist in the current environment (actually, Banana slugs might be better suited to the environment around Northern Calif than humans since the slugs do not need electricity for energy, cars for mobility, etc.) <= it’s a joke
The individual elements of the thesis would be supported by evidence. Evidence would be the specific, verifiable facts that anyone on either side would agree (e.g., Java Man consists of four bone fragments). The interpretation (e.g., the artist’s depiction of Java Man based on the fragments) would be linked to – but not same as – the evidence. This allows multiple interpretations of the evidence along with arguments supporting the interpretation (perhaps citing additional evidence).
Each piece of evidence would likely be worth its own Wikipedia page.
There might also be a page (or more) dealing with the validity of the evidence. Whether the method used to produce the evidence is consistent with the claims (e.g., whether the Earth’s environment actually matched the simulation).
Authors may connect various papers or other resources that support the claims/evidence.
The NPOV enforcement would be to eliminate labels, e.g., “fundamentalist”, “creationist”, “materialist” etc. Labels add nothing to the evidence itself or to the logical interpretations. Labels serve as shorthand to evoke responses. That is not useful.
There could be point-counterpoint. The NPOV (or APOV) enforcement would require that the adherents to a point of view be the ones to characterize their view – not the adherents to other points of view (e.g., creationism should be defined and defended by “creationists” not by others; the others could quote the “creationist’s” material; over simplification or pejorative synopsis would be disputed).
Whadayathink?
Examples:
"macroevolution is the accumulation of enough microevolutionary changes to create a distinct species" Imprecise. It is not quantity of changes which determines a new species but whether the original and offshoot interbreed.
"With more time and evolutionary pressures the differences will compound, producing the wide variety of species we see today" This statement makes too big a leap from a single species example to everything we see today.
"However, creationists treat macroevolution with considerably more skepticism and suggest that if it occurs at all—which some deny" I would say most of those who call themselves creationists deny macro-evolution.
"This makes it impossible for the organism to change beyond certain limits" does not state what makes it impossible.
You mention the panda bear, however while it is a good example of evolution it misses the specific point relayed in the use of the example of the red (or lesser) panda. Here is a species that is classified, for various reasons as a member of the bear family yet which has acquired so much change that that classification is doubted by creationists.
The statement: "To a creationist, these three bears are all examples of different but similar kinds" is demonstrably false since the polar and brown bears can still breed (though only in captivity). Creationism usually limits a "kind" to a breeding group thus they would have to acknowledge that they were originally one "kind" yet a radical divergence has taken place. One which allowed the polar bear to adapt to a completely different environment. I will mention that they can interbreed.
"The similarities between the polar and the brown bears are taken to mean that the environments they were created for and the tasks they were intended to do were relatively similar". Actually there's a lot of difference between the polar and brown bears and their respective environments. Here's a creationist site that breaks from the usual and calls the differences dramatic [10].
Deleted by your edit are good specific examples of micro -> macro evolution, i.e. turtle/tortoise, and hyena/aardwolf. Also this explanatory sentence "Live examples such as these probably constitute the upper limit of obvious to anyone change since any variation more than this would likely result in a species that would appear sufficiently unlike the original that there would be automatic dispute as to whether the two ever were related. In other words, the claim might then be made by evolution deniers that they were "probably two separate creations that just happen to look somewhat similar" should remain.
Is there a link to the Streptococcus pneumoniae mutation expending more resources? I think though that your paragraph is an improvment upon mine in general and I will leave it. Also I am keeping your links.
I do not think that I am out of line on the npov.
Apologies for the length.
First, if two species cannot interbreed they are definitely not the same species. In that way you can positively exclude as related or not many "kind" scenarios. In the determination of a species first and foremost considered is the ability to reproduce. But since it is difficult or impossible to determine which of every closely related species can interbreed other factors are considered such as amount of change etc because after so much change it is assumed that the reproductive compatibility of the two animals will have changed as well. Also just because two species look alike doen't mean they are related, it could simply be a case of convergent evolution. I don't think any serious scientist would limit his definitions of relatedness based on looks alone if sexual compatibility can be determined. Mate-recognition is tied to ability to breed. As for those which reproduce without meiosis or mitosis comparison of their DNAs is enough to establish relation as you can't get much closer than clones. Phylogenetic means use apparent differences to determine which how closely or far apart related species are. As Mayr says it "simply uses the degree of morphological difference as an indication of the underlying degree of reproductive isolation" [11]. Reproductive isolation, he says is "primary". He also says "To repeat, certain individuals are part of a certain species not because they have certain characteristics in common but they share these characteristics because they belong to a single reproductive community, a biological species". Reproductive ability doesn't mean that two different "kinds" of animals interbreed, but just have the ability to. In the article I stated "macroevolution is nothing more than the accumulation of enough microevolutionary changes over time that the offshoot no longer can or will breed with the original". I will change my statement that "this is the usual defintion of a new species" to "basic definition of a new species".
About how many creationists reject macroevolution I didn't find a specific poll, but no doubt someone has done one. I did find this: 85% of Americans consider themselves Christian http://www.gallup.com/poll/indicators/indreligion2.asp 81% want creation to be taught in public schools http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr990830.asp. The ICR brand of creation prominently fighting for inclusion in the schools rejects macroevolution. I did not look at the Gallup site as you need a subscription but accept them as stated.
Your paragraph that begins "What makes macroevolution impossible to the creationist", I agree with. But just because they hold these ideas doesn't make them right. I am merely showing, in a general discussion of macro/micro evo that this immutability of species notion has another side.
"But you did seem to be POV to me saying things like 'clear-cut examples' and 'significant positive change has plainly occurred' is very supportive of evolution." Yes I made these statements because they are true. The polar bear I've already touched on, the tortoise left the water to become land going, even in deserts, an environment that would kill a turtle in no time. The aardwolf has become an insectivore comlete with long sticky tongue and decreased dentition [12]. These are significant changes. Of course faced with this creationists are saying that, for example, the "original bear kind" must have been created with all the attributes that went into making up all the different species of bear that have ever existed incorporated in their genes, and then later on these delineated into specific species. So the genes that make up a polar bear was present in the first bear (even though God supposedly created the earth as a uni-seasonal tropical planet). Says Answers in Genesis "virtually all the necessary information was already there in the genetic makeup of the first bears, a population created by God with vast genetic potential for variation" [13]. This desperate, last ditch stance really doesn't deserve a response. In a moment of honesty a writer at ICR said "The Polar Bear, however, provides evidence for more dramatic change", "These morphological changes seem to me to go beyond the small, microevolutionary changes which are widely cited in creationist literature", "At the very least, a study of these members of the Ursus group suggests that creationists need to be more positive about larger-scale adaptations (with the appearance of design) than generally appears to outside observers" [14].
Perhaps where you're, IMO, slipping up is, as you state "it's easiest to avoid POV yourself when you present both sides' arguments as their respective and equally valid POVs." The problem is, according to all of mainstream science outside fundamentalism, creationism is not equally valid. However I have qualified my comments with "For the majority of biological scientists", "Given enough time and micro-changes at the genetic level , say evolutionists"
>I agree that we should represent their side as they see it, or let them do it themselves, however we are doing a disservice to others if we let the matter rest there. I certainly hope that I was not being an asshole.
>Absolutely. On the other hand, creationists have no lack of a voice to air their opinions and the deep pockets to back that up. I do not own the article and anyone is free to change it as they see fit. For a moment though, lets change to topic from evolution to flat earthism, or from astronomy to astrology. Would we be bending over as much to attempt to accomodate these points of view? Remember creationists are trying to force their dogma into public school science classes, yet they don't even have a theory.
>At some point in their past polar bears and brown bears for some reason ceased to breed. At this point they became a separate species. As you probably know it's called reproductive isolation. Subsequently the polar bear acquired lots of interesting adaptations to its environment. But they were a new species before the acquisition of these features. The fact that they can still breed is amazing and very unusual and bound to end relatively soon.
>Which is by far the great majority.
>Or we can include the word "Fundamentalist" creationists, which would make it true, and since they are the ones making all the stink. Feel free though to make your change.
>No doubt. It's true nonetheless.
>I hope that I haven't been. I have confined these comments to the talk page.
I have attempted to clarify the species question.
I do think my edits are fine and right as is, however I am finished with my contribution and will leave it in the hands of the editors. Have at it. Nice chatting with you. User:12.64.229.68 -How's that?
Whoops! hold on, my last edit has disappeared. Will attempt to recreate.
Okay, restored the lost passage. As I stated at the time I have attempted to clarify the species question. So long.
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I missed a point. Your statement "However, creationists (all? most? some?) treat macroevolution with considerably more skepticism and suggest that if it occurs at all—which most deny" is inconsistant.
As to your latest edit, I still find it imprecise and wandering. Also statements such as "Evolutionary scientists explicitly reject the notion that a creature is limited by its kind" is in error since the designation of types of animals as "kinds" is not recognized by mainstream scientists. Also I strongly suspect that it is not "possible for the red panda to interbreed with the brown bear or the polar bear".
Page archived. It was 76Kb. -- 141.211.62.118 05:49, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Should all of the See also links be capitalised? I have already changed them before but someone keeps changing e.g. gap creationism to Gap Creationism, young Earth creationism to Young Earth Creationism, day-age creationism to Day-Age Creationism etc. I was trying to follow /Archive 8#Capitalisation but now I see that there is no consensus at all and that issue needs to be discussed again. Rafał Pocztarski 00:19, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The capitalisation across this article is very inconsistent and keeps changing quite chaoticly (not without my own fault of course) so I suggest making a short list of words to capitalise. If anyone thinks “creationism” should always be capitalised, please add it to the list below before changing the article, so everyone could discuss it and agree upon a common, consistent spelling. Thanks. Rafał Pocztarski 16:45, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
<< User:Rfl subtlely inserted the following reader-invisible comment into the Creationism page, I am resisting the temptation of inserting a response similarly into the hidden code of the Creationism page, and I am taking the liberty of cutting that comment below, celebrated in green here for the historical record.>>
In looking through the historical record at the competition between creation and evolution in Darwin's day, I was impressed by Thomas Huxley's 1887 account of how Origin of Species provided the first explanation that in Huxley's view was a better explanation than creation. Huxley describes the sense in which he rejected creation as an explanation.
Huxley describes his similar rejection of the explanations of the evolutionists prior to Darwin.
Furthermore, any self-respecting religion-neutral anthropologist, such as Robert L. Carneiro, Curator of the American Museum of Natural History, would classify creation and evolution as mere successive stages of incomplete but improving explanations in a universe where there is no God to assist the women and men who attempt to discover the truth of their origins. [17]
From all of the above, I suggest that it is more accurate to define creationism as an explanation rather than a belief. After all, the survival of the belief derives from the usefulness of the belief, and a primary use of creationism is explaining how we all got here. According to Thomas Huxley, until Origin of Species, creationism was as good an explanation as evolutionism. And for the majority of American voters who cannot understand the evolutionists' explanations, creationism is a better explanation than evolutionism even yet today. [18] --- Rednblu 16:08, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
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"Personal bias"? Nope. I have bet on Darwin's explanation, myself.
In fact, I have a personal interest in getting more "creationists" to understand the extent to which their various hungers, including hungers for sugar, salt, burned fat, raiding Iraq, and gender bias are inherited hungers from the ancestors of the chimpanzees.
You propose a hypothesis: That the source of the political power of "creationism" is "belief."
I quote to you an opposing standard hypothesis from religion-neutral anthropology:
So I pose to you this question: How could we determine empirically whether the political power of "creationism" derives from
Would you agree that before 1850, creationism was an explanation founded on available knowledge and evidence? --- Rednblu 19:01, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
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If we would pattern the beginning of the Creationism page after the Phlogiston theory page, we would have the following.
That beginning sentence would at least be accurate--and defensible. In contrast, the current first sentence is indefensible. It would similarly be indefensible to define Evolution as
That is not what evolution is! Evolution is a whole complex of observations, conjectures, and progressively better explanations for the observations. Now, someone might believe that some version of evolution is more accurate than some other explanation. But the belief is forever separate from what is believed--even for the "creationists."
And the evolutionists will not let the creationists make a clear statement of what the "discredited hypothesis" is. --- Rednblu 21:09, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
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Though I personally think that creationism as at [21] is a discredited hypothesis, I concede that you make a very important point--whether creationism is a discredited hypothesis is the "whole point of this discussion." And we should not hope to prove one way or the other here on this Talk:Creationism page. Here, we should be figuring out how to turn the Creationism page into a coherent presentation of what "creationism" is. Would you agree? --- Rednblu 05:30, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
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What you say makes sense to me. But let's wait to get discussion on this Talk:Creationism page from other points-of-view before we do anything. Okay? Meanwhile, what do you think of the proposed split of the Creationism page that many of us have been discussing in various forms for the last couple of years? --- Rednblu 14:46, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I have put back a summary of the creation accounts in Genesis. To discuss rationally what creationists believe it is imperative to consider what the Bible actually says. I realise that what I have written may be contentious but it needs to be done. Michael Glass 03:23, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Text copied from logical subpage to fix broken link and to restore continuity of the dialog. --- Rednblu 17:16, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The creation accounts in Genesis are already described in the Creation beliefs page. Why are the creation accounts in Genesis repeated in the proposed Creation accounts in Genesis page? --- Rednblu 05:34, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This was added back as I have evidence of the existence of believers who are not creationist. If the intent was to say "if you do not accept creationism, you are not a true christian" then this is a No true Scotsman logical falacy, and contrary to Matt 7:1-5 and Rom 14:4. Lets leave the statement in. KeyStroke
<<Creationism is the usually Christian belief that the universe and all life were created by the deliberate act of God as described in the Bible.>>
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You stated: "both Roman Catholics and Protestants derive from Saint Augustine" and I cannot agree with your assumption. The way Protestants started was with Martin Luther who is quite well known for "scripture only". My point being that the Protestants I know are lothe to follow the writings of any Roman Catholic Saint, and prefer to limit their basis for belief only on the KJV Bible. I have never heard of Plato espousing any creation story. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I think it is safe to say that most Creationists get their understanding of the creation story from the Bible and not by reading Plato. The point being that, even if you are right (which I do not conceede), it is not Plato nor is it Augustine from which most creationists get their understanding of the story of creation. Therefore the statement in the "definition" is true... most people who are creationists get their belief from the Bible.
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You stated: <<The way Protestants started was with Martin Luther who is quite well known for "scripture only". My point being that the Protestants I know are lothe to follow the writings of any Roman Catholic Saint, and prefer to limit their basis for belief only on the KJV Bible.>>
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Lets take the sentence that seems to bother you so much (I am guessing, here, as to which one really bothers you) and break it down into its constituant parts to find out where you disagree:
If none of your answers are a categorical "No, absolutely not." then I have to conclude that the sentence (put back together) is not false. If the sentence is not false, then it is accurate and should stay. Lets not turn this into a battleground for our different denominations. I think it would benefit all who take the name of 'christian' to at least agree together what creationism is, whether or not we agree to the ideas. This shouldn't be an effort to claim ownership of the idea by one denomination or another. KeyStroke
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I have no interest in showing which creationism is right; I am interested only in putting together a reasonably accurate Creationism page that faces historical fact. Let's start from the last section of your analysis.
<<* .. as described in the Bible.
First of all, I have no objection to that part of the opening definition being true--if the historical record would show that "creationism" was limited to the creation beliefs described in the Bible. However, for example, Plato in his Timaeus sometime around 350 BC wrote a creationism hypothesis that historically was even more influential than any of the Bible versions; Plato wrote the following.
(Here is the on-line text of Plato's Timaeus if you want more details.) [22]
If you read the Catholic Church's expositions of creationism, you will find that the detailed, logically developed opinions of Plato, Thomas Aquinas, and Augustine on creationism were more important than the sketchy and logically inconsistent material in the Bible. Here is a link to the Catholic Encyclopedia's article on "creationism", for example; you can see on that Catholic "creationism" page that Plato, Thomas Aquinas, and Augustine are quoted more often than is the Bible. I am not saying that Catholic "creationism" is the right creationism. I think all the variations I have seen of the creationism hypothesis have been proven as wrong as the phlogiston theory. However, I am interested in getting a Wikipedia Creationism page that accurately reflects the various stages in the evolution of the various creationism hypotheses. Wikipedia should not be proselytizing for any particular hypothesis; Wikipedia should just report accurately what happened. --- Rednblu 05:06, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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And that is where we disagree. Wikipedia shouldn't be irrelevant history (assuming your version of that history is true, which I do not grant). It should be a description of what creationism is, now. I know several creationists and none of them initialy got their belief from (as you put it) "'the Catholic Church's expositions of creationism'", not even the Catholics I know. Granted, the Catholics I know didn't get it by reading the Bible for themselves either, but instead got it from their parents, or the other parishioners, or from the pulpit. The important thing I am trying to say is that none of them read "'the Catholic Church's expositions of creationism'" either. If I were to choose between giving a history lesson, and telling people where holders of creationism initially get their belief, I think it is more informative to do the later. For most creationists the source of their belief comes from the Bible. Go into the history of the idea in a later part if you want to (I still don't think you are right in your version, but I won't contest it in a later section). Just do not hijack the initial definition for your agenda. KeyStroke
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Do you seriously think that the creationists of today derive their ideas from the text of the Bible? Where in the Bible text can you find Young Earth creationism, or Gap creationism, or Intelligent design, or Evolutionary creationism? Where? For any politically active form of "creationism" today, the first sentence is wrong--at least in misidentifying the source of most creationist beliefs. --- Rednblu 05:57, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Enough bantering. We have fully expressed our views. I call the question. Lets put it to a vote. All those in favor of keeping the reference to the Bible in the initial definition signify by voting keep, all those in favor of rewriting the initial definition to the viewpoint of Rednblu signify by voting rewrite. Lets have the voting time be one week. KeyStroke]
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In the following section, I suggest you not allow yourself to vote for a sentence that you feel is like: "When did you stop beating your little poodle?" -- if you feel that you have never beaten your little poodle. Take this chance to fill in one of the "Version N" stubs below to say exactly what you think is right and accurate. If you see a version below that you think is right, then vote for it, and please give us a quick reason for your vote. For myself, I will feel free to change my vote when I see a "Version N" that I think is better than the one for which I have currently placed my vote. :)) --- Rednblu 19:21, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
<<Creationism is the belief that the universe and all life were created by the deliberate act of God as described in the Bible.>>
<<Creationism is the belief that the universe and all life were created by the deliberate act of God.>>
<<Creationism is the belief that the universe and all life were created by the deliberate act of some supernatural power (usually one or several gods).>>
Just an idea... Rama 16:29, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
<<Creationism is . . . >>
<<Creationism is . . . >>
This is about as logical as the poll now being taken, because it does not speak to assumptions of the newcomers who are currently writing. For a broader and more logical definition, see the list of creationist variants.
<<Creationism is the belief that the universe and all life were created by the deliberate act of God as described in the Bible.>> Yes, but not with the assumptions that seem to be following...
Why are both sides assuming the most narrow definition possible? It is an assumption that is propagated only by the poles. This is an acceptable assumption to the Christian fundamentalist and to the enemies of fundamentalists, who prefer to label all Creationists as fundamentalist for the propaganda purpose of marginalization and ridicule. It is not acceptable to the large majority in between. To be a Christian is to be a Creationist. But some Christians believe the Genesis account to be a scientific treatise; some believe it to be a literary or theological treatise.
The most vocal Creationists are those who both accept the Genesis account as literal and believe that it contradicts modern science. But a larger number of Christian Creationists are either comfortable that no real dispute exists, or are willing to wait for the resolution of the paradoxical parts. Pollinator 13:16, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)
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Would you please state a "Version 3" above for which you could vote wholeheartedly? Personally, I have very fundamental criticisms of "Version 2" above; I think it is wrong. Nevertheless, I inserted the original first sentence as "Version 2," because in my opinion it represented the conclusions of the majority of editors working the Creationism page over the past year--in this instance, I am protecting the progress I have seen this whole group make over the last year. I wanted to give you and others a chance to make a complete statement of what you think should be the first sentence--from your point of view--as "Version 3," "Version 4," etc. above. --- Rednblu 19:07, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Thanks for asking. I have no personal objections to Version 2. But I see a lot of objections from the creationists who say that "creationism is NOT a belief--it is a hypothesis." And in my opinion, most religious-neutral scholars would agree that creationism is a "hypothesis." By my own standards, creationism would be a "discredited hypothesis"--something like Phlogiston theory--a hypothesis that either contradicts modern empirical evidence or posits unnecessary variables, such as "creator" or "phlogiston."
Hence, I would argue that the current definition "Creationism is a belief . . ." is no more accurate than would be a definition "Evolution is a belief . . ." that a bunch of unthinking Wikipedia bigots could enforce on the Evolution page if there were enough of them. For now, my criticism of version 2 is much less significant than the question up for vote: Whether creationism includes some theories, hypotheses, explanations, and ideas that contradict the Bible. So I voted for Version 2 to avoid introducing a much less important point that would be a distraction in the current setting. Thanks for asking. --- Rednblu 23:14, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I have come to the conclusion that Rednblu, and cohorts, simply want to sabotage this page. I am going to give up trying to reach a reasonable agreement, since all that they seem to really want to do is to argue. I, myself, wanted to build an encyclopedia entry that reflected the ideas of all the creationists I know. However, it is obvious to me that the beliefs (yes, beliefs) of the vast majority of people who hold that God created what exists seem not to matter, here. People that I know who believe God created us initially get it from three sources: A. The pulpit. B. Their family or friends. C. The Bible. Almost always the other two reinforce whichever of those three was the first source to which someone is exposed. None of the dozens of people I know who accept the idea that God created us got it from reading obscure Catholic texts or Augustine or even Plato. It is a shame that the viewpoints of the vast majority of people who accept creationism have to be swallowed up by the vocal minority. Creationism is important because the public school system in the USA preaches (yes, they preach it) that man did not come from God, but rather from a lower form of life. The alternative view, that man came from God, and therefore we have an obligation to our creator is what makes creationism important. The "foundation stone" for the belief of the dozens of creationists I know is the Bible. That fact cannot be contested. People get, or at least verify, their belief in creationism by reading the Bible. They don't go checking obscure Catholic texts, nor do they read the dusty archives of Augustine or Plato. Instead, they accept the veracity of the Bible. I don't know why Rednblu and crowd want to obscure that fact. However, the contention is obvious. And it does neither side benefit to continue the argument. So, I sacrafice the idea that Wikipedia, in this page, can reflect the viewpoint and opinion of hundreds of thousands of people who hold the ideas of creationism as true. It means more to Rednblu to sabotage it than it does to me to preserve the truth, here. I am no longer watching this page. KeyStroke
according to the article text, i assume that the distinction is the presence or absence of speciation. insofar as biology has a working definition of species, then it recognizes a distinction between micro- and macroevolution. should this sentence simply be removed?
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I suggest we replace that sentence with a sentence that is accurate. How about the following replacement?
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Maybe. But within my observations, mainstream scientific journals do not use the term "macroevolution"--even as a cumulative result. So it would be inaccurate, in my opinion, to say "referred to as macroevolution." So I would suggest not adding that sentence. In my opinion, the creationists use the concept of "macroevolution" as a resistance against considering the possibility that just the simple "microevolution" that can be proven in the lab could cumulate such that a herd of ancestors of the chimpanzees doing only "microevolution" could result in two herds of animals as widely different as chimpanzees and humans. Just my opinion of what makes a clearer, accurate statement. What do others think? --- Rednblu 00:53, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Also, does anyone think that it might be a good idea to mention in the article this thing that we've descussed here, namely that macroevolution was brought about as a concept by creationists, not by evolutionary biologists, as a workaround to the overwhelming laboratory evidence for evolution? -
Lethe |
Talk 13:43, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
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According to Macroevolution FAQ, the terms were not invented by creationists. However, creationists (well, AiG at least) prefer not to use the terms, instead talking about the difference between loss of genetic information and gain of genetic information. See Variation, information and the created kind. Philip J. Rayment 16:05, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Just a minor point, but User:Michael Glass has just made some edits that include modifying the following sentence with the words I have shown in italics: "The term usually refers to Christian creationism and especially to the belief that living organisms were created by God in their present form. This sounds very much like an old idea that creationists perhaps once had that there has been no speciation and that creatures have not changed at all. However, this view is not held by (most?) creationists today. Rather, they believe that the original created kinds had sufficient genetic variability that allowed for speciation and adaption within genetic limits. On that basis, I believe that the additional words should be removed, or if I have misunderstood the intention, the wording should be clarified. Philip J. Rayment 05:14, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Yes. I saw those edits. He, like other editors, has keyed in the kind of "creationism" he believes in, and he has made sure that most of the real variations of "creationism" are not represented. The current first two sentences are atrociously wrong.
Just out of curiosity how would you edit the above two sentences to make them right? --- Rednblu 05:43, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I have now made the changes as outlined above. I hope that this wording is acceptable.
Actually, I wasn't describing my beliefs, I was trying to describe creationist beliefs. This is hard to do because different beliefs come under the heading "creationist". At one extreme we could have a definition of creationism that would demand a rather literal interpretation of one of the creation stories in Genesis. At the other extreme, we could have a definition of creationism that could encompass a belief in evolution, provided that God was in final control.
Perhaps Philip's wording (immediately above)is clearer than "after their kind". I would certainly have no objection to the wording that he suggested. Michael Glass 06:50, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Summary of the issue: What is the best single word or phrase to describe "Creationism"? Should the word "theory", which has multiple meanings be used?
--- Begin copy of contents from /What is wrong with the lead section
In my opinion, the fundamental logical flaw in this approach is basing your investigation on "belief." Hypothesis: To start an encyclopedia article with "Xism is the belief that . . . " will always fail to produce a good encyclopedia page. You might start paging through your virtual Encyclopaedia Britannica for a counter-example to the above hypothesis--looking for a "good" encyclopedia page that begins with what I am asserting is an irredeemably flawed first sentence "Xism is the belief that . . . ." You may find what you think is a counter-example encyclopedia page, and of course I will contend that that encyclopedia page is not "good." :) It is like beginning an encyclopedia page with the first sentence: "Ten is the odd number that . . . ."
The first sentence of a "good" encyclopedia page on "creationism" should describe what "creationism" is--not what "creationism" believes. For example, you might begin a "good" encyclopedia page with "Communism is a system of political and economic organization in which . . ." or you might begin a "good" encyclopedia page with "Creationism is the theory that . . . ."
I leave it for the reader to derive the general logical constraint that produces a "bad" encyclopedia page from the first sentence of the form "Xism is the belief that . . . ." --- Rednblu 15:29, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Let me illustrate the problem with the current first sentence to the Creationism page.
If everyone agreed to that sentence, then there would be no problem with that first sentence. The difficulty is that, to make that sentence correct, over half of the people on this earth would have to change the words that follow "Creationism is the belief that . . . ." We could take a poll to pin down the statistics that I imply in "over half of the people."
As it is now, most people who explain their existence as divine creation have beliefs that violate the phrase "as described in the Bible"--because most people who explain their existence as divine creation believe that some form of speciation fomed H. sapiens and that is not "as described in the Bible," but rather "as described in" Darwin's, Origin of Species. Again, we could take lots of polls to pin down the statistics I imply by phrases like "most people who. . . ."
I don't really think you mean that Creationism is just a belief. It is also a political movement, it is a controversy, it is the basis of a way of life, it is a basis for moral systems, etc.
And the professional encyclopedias recognize the entirety of what "creationism" is in the lead sentence. Consult any professional encyclopedia. Creationism is not just a belief, it is a . . . . --- Rednblu 18:36, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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What difference does that make? you ask. I would say it is only a matter of accuracy--as long the words model somewhat closely what is going on in reality. At first, "belief" seemed to me to be the right word. To me, "creationism" is a belief that some people have. But then I saw that so many people disagreed with what followed the phrase "Creationism is the belief that . . . ." So then it seemed to me that it would be nearly impossible to make an accurate statement that would model reality, beginning with "Creationism is the belief that . . . ."; it doesn't matter whether you put the Bible into that definition or not, it still will not model reality. I assume that an encyclopedia would like to model the "reality" of what people have thought, said, and done.
So then I explored how the hardcopy encyclopedias have introduced the whole host of "beliefs"--the -isms. I found in the hardcopy encyclopedias the following:
The textual structure here is that view, critique, doctrine, and movement are all abstractions that you can define outside of the believer's head. They are defined before "belief"; belief is what someone might have in the view, critique, doctrine, or movement. I found it interesting that Britannica starts the "creationism" entry with
With that kind of beginning, the article can lay out the variations in the "theory." The "theory" can have a political influence. The "theory" can be criticized as having more causes than it needs, or the "theory" can be proven wrong. And of course, some people have a belief in the theory and some people don't. It is merely a question of accuracy of the encyclopedia article in modeling reality. --- Rednblu 23:27, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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I understand your political turf explanation quite well. It is nothing more sophisticated than our inherited chimpanzee politics. Reality be damned; what counts is holding the political turf. I'm not even objecting. I'm just pointing out that in fact, "Creationism is a theory . . . ." I understand that currently in Wikipedia, the evolutionist censors will not allow the truth be told. But if you look outside Wikipedia at reality, there are many kinds of theory other than scientific theory; there is wage theory and auteur theory and location theory and tricellular theory and creationist theory none of which even claim to be a science. At least all of those non-scientific theories are "explanations" that serve quite adequately for what science cannot even begin to handle. Just because some lame-brain religious zealot devised the brilliant chimpanzee politics trick of faking up creationism to be a science does not justify ignoring the reality of what "creationism" is. --- Rednblu 05:18, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Let me rephrase if you will.
I understand your political turf explanation quite well. It is nothing more sophisticated than our inherited chimpanzee politics. Reality be damned; what counts is holding the political turf. I'm not even objecting. I'm just pointing out that in fact, "Creationism is a theory . . . ." I understand that currently in Wikipedia, many will not support the use of the word theory that differs from the way that the word theory is used in biological science. But if you look outside Wikipedia at reality, there are many kinds of theory other than scientific theory; there is wage theory and auteur theory and location theory and tricellular theory and creationist theory none of which even claim to be a science. At least all of those non-scientific theories are "explanations" that serve quite adequately for what science cannot even begin to handle. Just because some creationist strategist devised the brilliant chimpanzee politics trick of faking up creationism to be a science does not justify ignoring the reality of what "creationism" is. --- Rednblu 06:58, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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People are right to object. While creationism is a theory, in practice it's paired up with evolution that to call it that is confusing. Besides, other similar things aren't usually described as theories anyways (e.g. most are described as stories rather than historical events even though people believe in them). As such, some other synonym is preferrable. I don't know why you object to the term belief, which does a good job summing up other positions like theism, atheism, etc, but there are plenty of other words that could be used. Idea, view, and position come to mind.
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I object to "Creationism is a belief that ..." in the same sense that I would object to "A mammal is four legs that ...." Even allowing for some whales having the vestigial hind legs, "four legs" does not capture the functional essence of "mammal" very well. The flaw in "Creationism is a belief that ..." is that it does not model reality very well in representing what "creationism" is. Let me state the following Hypothesis: The political drawing power of "creationism" is that creationism looks to uneducated people like a theory that explains how people got here on this earth. This is the standard anthropological interpretation of why people gravitate to creationism. [23] --- Rednblu 07:56, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Fair enough. Any objections to Creationism is the position that...?
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On the "belief" issue, I was assuming that an "ism" is, essentially, a belief (or a set of beliefs, perhaps). However, Mirriam-Webster Onlinedoesn't actually give that definition, instead defining "ism" as a distinctive doctrine, cause, or theory. I still don't really have a problem with the word "belief", but I am happy for something else to be substituted. I would probably go for "view", which incidentally was used twice in Rednblu' list of examples, but I'm open to "doctrine" or other possibilities.
On the issue of "as described in the Bible", I think I see where you are coming from, Rednblu, having now read most of the nine pages of talk (whew!). If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting/claiming that the term creationism is applicable to anybody who believes in a divine creator (or something like that), regardless of whether or not they follow/accept the biblical narrative. On this I would disagree. Sure, the term could be used to describe non-biblical views of creation, but is that the way that it is normally used? As mentioned by others in the earlier discussion, most dictionaries do refer to the Bible or Genesis in defining the word.
As for the comparison with "A mammal is four legs that...", again I think I see your point, that "belief" (or any of the other terms that have been suggested?) don't explain creationism well enough. I'm a bit ambivalent on this at the moment, but I'm not convinced that the analogy is correct. Perhaps you could propose some alternative wording so that we can better see where you want this to go.
Actually, I don't really like the third sentence of the introduction ("However, not all..."), as it appears awkward and rather pointless.
Philip J. Rayment 12:31, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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I do believe that the empirical evidence supports the following Hypothesis: Out of all the people of this earth who believe that divine creation put them here, only a very small fraction believe that the divine creation followed the biblical narrative. I have no personal preference that all of those people would 1) follow or 2) not follow the biblical narrative. Isn't this just a question of fact--comparing statistically what 1) people say about the divine creation that put them here versus the 2) biblical narrative?
Let's not worry for now about whether "belief" is appropriate. The resolution of that issue, in my opinion, is a huge political problem within the whole camp of evolutionists, of which I am one. That is, in my opinion, fixing the "belief" problem in the Creationism page is a long-term process of getting the evolutionists to deal with reality. If you think "belief" is good-enough, let's stay with "belief" for now. --- Rednblu 17:19, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Just to comment on belief a bit more, a belief doesn't have to be an airy-fairy thing that has no connection to reality. We believe, for example, that if we sit on a chair, it will hold our weight, based on the experience that we have with sitting on chairs previously.
As for what should come under the heading of "creationism", the following articles could be instructive, although personally I wouldn't take everything this author says at face value: [24] [25] [26] Philip J. Rayment 15:30, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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We've discussed the topic of creationism: theory/belief/hypothesis/etc.? at length previously here: Talk:Creationism/Is_Creationism_a_theory.
A hypothesis or conjecture requires the following to qualify as a theory:
Creationism clearly does not qualify as a theory. Barring any additional credible proof that it is indeed a theory, then it remains in the realm of belief, or conjecture at best. It seems some are bent on getting a second- and third bite at the apple on this point.-- FeloniousMonk 17:42, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC) --- Sure. You have expressed exactly my particular point-of-view; that is how I want to use the word theory; that is how I have trained myself to use the word theory. But that point-of-view is not how most people use the English word theory. Just take for example what most people mean by "domino theory." That is, most people use "theory" not to mean scientific method; but rather to mean an organization of knowledge that explicitly names assumptions, accepted principles, and rules to explain the knowledge--with no requirement for verifiability.
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Ok. Would you say that the " domino theory" applies the
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--- Restatement of Hypothesis: The evolutionists on Wikipedia enforce a censorship on Wikipedia from a bigoted and parochial view of theory that contradicts the general usage of the English word "theory".
Thank you for your example in support of my hypothesis. No need to reply; typical misuse of facts, logic, and grammar. --- Rednblu 17:04, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC) ---
Obviously there is a dispute whether creationism is a theory. One side says it is, one side says it isn't. Therefore it would be a violation of NPOV to start the article with "Creationism is the theory that...". The obvious solution, for me, is to start with "Creationism is the belief that...", then say that "creation scientists" claim it is also a theory. Hob 17:44, Sep 25, 2004 (UTC)
No price for good style, but another possibility would be:
Pjacobi 21:44, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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I disagree with this solution. Calling creationism a theory, even in a relaxed, vernacular form, when it fails to meet any of the criteria of an actual theory, is misleading and confusing to readers, who would first have to understand the nuance. Also, as long as creationists consistently insist their belief is an alternative to scientific explanations for the universe's origin, not to mention consistently insisting that such science is wrong and/or flawed, their belief should then have to meet the same standard as any other explanation for the origin of the cosmos if they want it to be taken as an credible alternative explanation.
The correct solution is to call reader's attention the fact some creationism proponents insist that their beliefs qualify as theories and outline the criticisms of those claims.-- FeloniousMonk 04:50, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Arrgh! I forgot to put this page on my watch list. A bit of catching up here...
<<Creationism clearly does not qualify as a theory.>>
I am not pushing for using the word theory', but some things need to be said here (although I just know I'm going to regret this).
On a slightly different note, I am frequently amused by people arguing that:
So which is it really?
Philip J. Rayment 04:24, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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It seems to me that our struggle here is a valid one. We are attempting to define among ourselves what points-of-view should be allowed to make statements on the Creationism page. The final constructive outcome of our struggles here would be a list of the allowed points-of-view. Here are some of the points of friction that we have encountered so far.
Approaching the problem of making a great Creationism page from this angle, we might make a list of the points-of-view in the current Creationism page--and then see what points-of-view would need to be added to make that great Creationism page. --- Rednblu 05:42, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I think your approach to and framing of this particular question is flawed. In a very real way we as wikipedians don't get to "define what points-of-view should be allowed to make statements on the Creationism page" as you say. The points that should be addressed are the ones that are relevant to describing accurately and concisely creationism, and they are already determined. The Creationism article should be an accurate and concise description of creationism and its status in society; nothing more and nothing less. Most have stated here and on the main discussion page it it does that already. Further, neither you nor I own the article or the debate, so I don't think creating your proposed "a list of the allowed points-of-view" is in the spirit or the best interest of wikipedia, it smacks of censorship and power grabbing. I would oppose it, as attempting to control knowledge in such a manner is anti-wikipedia and likely to fail. Continual attempts by self-appointed minders to redefine and restructure the debate will only smack of POVism, as some have discovered.
Addressing your individual points and suggestion here:
I feel that the points raised here point out the need for Philosophy of Creationism article that leaves the original Creationism article to deal a concise and balanced way with describing creationism. I will be moving to have that article created, so to speak.-- FeloniousMonk 07:32, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
In my opinion, it is irrelevant whether a participant on this page understands the underlying science. And it is unnecessary to engage in this standard chimpanzee politics and hierarchy challenge that we all inherited from the ancestors of the chimpanzees. We are writing an encyclopedia page. And what matters is whether the participant faithfully represents a valid and documented point of view on the Creationism page. We will expect legitimate citations, of course. The Creationism page does not address, challenge, overlap, threaten, nor discuss science, though some wrongfully keep twisting the Creationism page to do so. In my opinion, Mr. Rayment's statements faithfully represent history and standard uses of the English language whether or not they correspond to the narrow views of science. --- Rednblu 06:01, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Let me start with saying, that I'm also of the opinion, that Creationism is a belief. But as some important believers want the label "theory", I agree with putting "theory" in the first sentence and suggested above the possibility of the clarifying however not in the scientific understanding of "theory" sub-sentence for a NPOV treatment. Please consider three points.
And, BTW, has anybody read something of de:Harun Yaha? We are seeking some concrete counter-arguments for some of his concrete arguments but so far nobody volunteered to actually obtaining his book. Pjacobi 10:03, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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I agree it is important to get the facts right and let the reader judge, which is why I suggested outlining both sides of the controversy over use of the word theory in relation to creationism, as opposed to just using the phrase with what amounts to a disclaimer. I'm not summarily objecting to the proposed statement because it is not accurate, but because the sentence is confusing and not explicit; it requires of the reader an understanding of the differences and significance of those differences between "theory" in the sense of a nonacademic belief or notion, and an actual scientific theory, without providing an explanation of those differences. In other words, explicit statements are preferable to implicit statements, or tautological statements. If we can rework it to be an explicit statement, that would be an improvement and something I could support.-- FeloniousMonk 17:20, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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I was aware that my formulation attempt will most likely not be stringent enough for a first sentence, as I said in my first post here. I'm still of the opinion that the statement is correct, and I interpret your post to agree on this. I fear I'm not much help in finding a good formulation, as I'm not a native speaker, and subtle difference between German and English may blur my view. On de: we settled (so far) on "ist die These" (is the thesis), which is less awkward but also less informative than is a theory, however not in the scientific understanding of "theory". In German the is the belief ("ist der Glaube") formulation would look rather strange. "Menschen glauben an X" (people believe in X), but we want to talk of X, and in some places of the believers (persons, organisations and tactics), not about the belief in X.
Sorry for confusing everbody.
Pjacobi 19:07, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Again, I think your approach and framing of the question are flawed. Historic POVs and scientific POV's are not competition in academia, or in an encyclopedia. One POV does not trump the other generally, but share space. Nor should either impinge on the other's purview. They coexist within our corpus of knowledge and as to what extent this is relevant to keeping the article accurate it should be pointed out.-- FeloniousMonk 07:47, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I have reverted the headings in Talk:Creationism#What is wrong with the lead section of Creationism? to NPOV headings. As my previous comments failed to convince, I am here enlarging on why.
In any case, the proposals should be considered on their merits, not on the basis of whose points of view they are.
Philip J. Rayment 03:15, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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I learned a lot from that "Summary" exercise of Points-of-View, though sometimes it felt like a mere Chimpanzee Politics turf battle in which I felt like I acted like a chimpanzee ganging up in temporary coalitions to defend turf like everyone else I saw. However in the process, I consulted more actual encyclopedias and dictionaries in more depth than I had before. User:Steinsky wisely, in my opinion, replaced the ramble on the parent page with a thumbnail summary that actually works. And, in my opinion, it would be constructive for the quality of the Creationism page if we would continue that "Summary" exercise here on the subpage where that work toward a "Summary" actually belongs. Accordingly, I structure a "Summary area" below where I would suggest that each contributor wanting to participate would edit only their own Summary statement. Whose statement goes first or last does not matter to me; so feel free to move the position of my statement as you feel that position would strengthen your own personal point-of-view. And of course, I invite anyone else not listed below to make a summary statement, particularly anyone reading that has not yet had a chance to make a statement on what they think would be the most accurate lead section for the Creationism page. Please limit statements to around ten lines--merely for clarity. If you want to make a long statement, please do so outside the following "Summary statements of participants" section. --- Rednblu 16:04, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Maybe for some enterprises your principle of "have to meet the same standard as" would be constructive. But I doubt that your principle of "have to meet the same standard as" is a good approach for writing a truthful and accurate encyclopedia. For in establishing the principle of "have to meet the same standard as," someone must declare which standard is the winner, within what otherwise would be a free-market competition among different standards.
Perhaps, the Wikipedia community would like to encourage the scientists in winning the competition over what definition of theory is allowed within Wikipedia. After all, as Justice Holmes once said, "If you have no doubt of your premises or your power and want a certain result with all your heart you naturally express your wishes in law and sweep away all opposition."
Above you argue that the Wikipedia community should declare that "Creationism should then have to meet the same standard as science." But I suggest that declaring the monopoly outcome for science over control of the word and definition of theory would be fatal in trying to put together an accurate and truthful encyclopedia.
For as Justice Holmes said, it is natural to want to sweep away all opposition. Then he continued, "But when men have realized that time has upset many fighting faiths, they may come to believe even more than they believe the very foundations of their own conduct that the ultimate good desired is better reached by free trade in ideas-that the best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market, and that truth is the only ground upon which their wishes safely can be carried out." [30]
I suggest that instead of adopting the principle of "have to meet the same standard as," a truthful and accurate encyclopedia would display the participants in the "free trade in ideas"--something like Creationist A says "A theory is the following . . .," and Nobel Prize Winner B says "A theory is something different . . . ." You may think that such an accurate description of the "free trade in ideas" would permit the creationists to manipulate people's minds with their pseudoscience. I do not take such a dim view of what natural selection and circumstance have made of us. Do you really think that pseudoscience has such power? --- Rednblu 06:58, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
You have a singular gift for coming up with straw man arguments. Science doesn't "own" the term "theory" any more than Christians own the term religion; dictionaries define words based on what is found in general usage, and according to most dictionaries, people associate the word theory first with science before they associate it with a notion or idle conjecture, which is what you're arguing it is in this limited case (making your claim a special pleading).
"...I doubt that your principle of "have to meet the same standard as" is a good approach for writing a truthful and accurate encyclopedia. For in establishing the principle of "have to meet the same standard as," someone must declare which standard is the winner, within what otherwise would be a free-market competition among different standards."
OK, so it's your position that in order to have a "a truthful and accurate encyclopedia" we should not define terms consistently or demand stringency in our justifications for defining thusly? Your "free-market" justification for abandoning explicit definitions leads to a race to the bottom and intellectual mediocrity; it only assures that all definitions so defined will be so vague as to be near useless.
"Perhaps, the Wikipedia community would like to encourage the scientists in winning the competition over what definition of theory is allowed within Wikipedia... Above you argue that the Wikipedia community should declare that "Creationism should then have to meet the same standard as science." But I suggest that declaring the monopoly outcome for science over control of the word and definition of theory would be fatal in trying to put together an accurate and truthful encyclopedia."
That's singularly threadbare and ignoble reasoning. Not exactly in the spirit of wikipedia now, is it? Trying to make this out as a competition and that scientists here are trying to make a power grab is a shabby and intellectually vacuous tactic. You used the same ploy in your creationist campaign at talk.origins and alt.atheism and it didn't work there, what makes you think it's going to work here? You and the proponents of creationism are the ones seeking to redefine the term and change the article, not us, we are satisfied as it is. Those here you call "scientists" are not asking for the article to be changed, you are. You've been flooding this debate with every form of specious notion to find an angle, and barring that now you're stooping to new lows. Your POV campaign here isn't able to make the case so you try to tar your opponents... Nice!
"For as Justice Holmes said, it is natural to want to sweep away all opposition..."
Well, Justice Holmes also said "Three generations of imbeciles are enough." in Buck v. Bell, 1927, endorsing Virginia's eugenics program. I'm not surprised you'd cite his likes as support.
Then again he may have had a point, perhaps we have had enough generations of imbeciles...
"I suggest that instead of adopting the principle of "have to meet the same standard as," a truthful and accurate encyclopedia would display the participants in the "free trade in ideas"--something like Creationist A says "A theory is the following . . .," and Nobel Prize Winner B says "A theory is something different . . . ."
Using your logic here one would never be able to have meaningful foundational basis for the word. It's like saying even though most experts and the public agree dogs are members of the species lupus, some non-experts should be allowed to say they belong to the species silvestris, because their religious beliefs dictate that any other belief is wrong and so they should get a special exemption. That's singularly bad logic.
You repeatedly use the phrase here"...a truthful and accurate encyclopedia..." but I have to ask why the concern about truth and accuracy now? I mean, you haven't bothered to be truthful or accurate to us about your POV agenda and history now, have you? Bringing up this argument now after our summaries is again an attempt to get another bite at the apple and refactor the debate, just more proof of the shabby tactics of your POV campaigning here; it's blatant flooding of the Talk pages, a violation of wikipolicy.
I'm reluctant to engage you again in anymore discussions here considering the recent revelations as to your true POV, the lack of good faith it indicates, your history and identity. Obviously your mild claims of supporting evolution are nothing more than a beard you've hidden your creationist, religionist agenda behind to disarm your opponents, based on my reading your extensive history of usenet tactics in talk.origins, alt.atheism, etc. going as far back as 1996. You used the very same tactics and arguments there and were shown up to be a fraud. I feel your pet POV campaign here to redefine creationism as a theory and dishonesty about your true POV bias here precludes you from contributing anything with semblance of NPOV. I think you've got a lot of explaining to do before I and others will give you full faith and credit as a wikipedian.-- FeloniousMonk 09:39, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
In my opinion, movement is a great improvement in accuracy over belief--because I think movement captures both the idea and the organization that promotes the idea. Also, I think Mr. Monk's suggestion is a good one: "Creationism is the religious doctrine that . . . ." What came to my mind on reading both of your summary statements was this possibility:
Your phrase "Creationism is the movement that . . ." may be simpler and more accessible to the reader.
Is there any significant view within creationism that would feel a bias against them in the statement "Creationism is the movement that ... "? Perhaps a significant portion of creationists might not like to associate themselves with the Organization of a movement. Also, in your opinion, is there a significant view within creationism that would feel that the phrase "as described in the Bible" is biased against them? For example, according to the Encyclopædia Britannica article on "creationism,"
Would the statement Creationism is the movement that proposes that the universe and all life were created by deliberate act of God as described in the Bible be biased against such scientific creationists? --- Rednblu 17:32, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Regarding whether any creationists would object to "Creationism is the movement that...", I can't really say, other than to offer the opinion that I don't think they would.
Regarding whether any creationists would object to "..as described in the Bible", I suppose it depends on who is included in that category. Intelligent Design people don't refer to themselves as "creationists", but if you include them, then I guess that some of them would disagree with this bit. Apart from them, creationists pretty well all agree with what the Bible says, they just disagree on what it means!
Philip J. Rayment 12:53, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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Ahh, ok. Are you saying that generally each creationist reads the Bible account of the creation as describing the events in their particular version of creation? Hence, the Bible account is given wide interpretation by creationists in a full range from those who believe that creation occurred in 1) six twenty-four UTC hour days to the extreme of 2) God created only the first bacterium of life from which all creatures alive today evolved according to natural selection. If that is so, in my opinion that would be important to say, perhaps in the second sentence. --- Rednblu 16:20, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
In principle, yes. My caveats are:
Philip J. Rayment 12:24, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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Are you advocating that "creationist" is a self-proclaimed designation? It may be better to adopt a "neutral" point of view to define the term and apply it whether or not the person with the defined point of view uses it to describe themselves. I offer as an example the term " materialist." I don't think I have ever referred to myself as a "materialist"--because the term does not express the nuances of how I think of myself. Nevertheless, the term "materialist" is regularly used--and fairly--to distinguish my writing and thought from " dualist" or " idealist."
The term "evolutionist" offers another useful example. It is useful in the Creationism article to use the term "evolutionist" even though there are few molecular biologists who would refer to themselves as "evolutionist"; Charles Darwin used the term "evolutionist" repeatedly to refer to himself and to other "naturalists" who were convinced that natural selection explained the Origin of Species. Sixth edition of Origin of Species that you can scan for Darwin's uses of the phrases "admitted by most evolutionists" and "admitted by all evolutionists."
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You make valid points regarding the use of terms. I actually wasn't totally advocating that; I was being deliberately vague, pointing out that there are different ways of looking at this, although I suppose I was leaning a little the way you said. However (to still sit on the fence), here are some further thoughts.
So I'm still fence-sitting. Back to you for further comment.
Philip J. Rayment 03:18, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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Well said. I am listening. Wouldn't you want the Creationism page to have a short paragraph on all the varieties you mention above--with a break-out subpage for the details--similar in structure to the Evolution page? --- Rednblu 05:59, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Summary of the issue:
Summary statement of
FOo:
Summary statement of
FeloniousMonk:
My position remains that the current opening sentence "Creationism is the belief that the ..." is accurate. It correctly identifies creationism as a belief. Any meaningful sense of the word theory implies codified sets of useful knowledge, which creationism is not. It should be noted that those who are making the argument for the use of theory to describe creationism are making a special pleading.
Historically and here on wikipedia creationists consistently insist that creationism is an equally plausible alternative to scientific explanations and that such scientific explanations are wrong. By positioning its assertions in the realm of science and opposing science, Creationism should then have to meet the same standard as science when identifying its claims or itself as a " theory." Few would assert that the geocentric model is a theory in any sense, yet actually it is supported by empirical evidence unlike creationism, for which there is no empirical evidence. This illustrates clearly the problem of associating creationism with even the idea of theory, even its loosest sense.
As theory is defined on wikipedia, creationism fails to qualify as a theory because: 1) is inconsistent with any pre-existing theory that has withstood verification experimentally or in reality, 2) is not supported by any credible evidence but rather rests on a single foundation of magical thinking, 3) cannot be verified or tested, but must be accepted on faith, leaving it open to unresolvable disputes regarding interpretation and its nature, 4) makes no predictions that might someday be used to prove or disprove its claim, or those of any of the alternative explanations for the same data.
Of the vernacular definition of theory as defined on Dictionary.com, only the last, most fully deprecated definition provided can be said to apply to creationism. It is clearly not the most common usage of the term and hence not sufficient to justify its use in an introductory statement to a encyclopedia entry. By the majority of the above criteria creationism clearly does not qualify as a theory, yet it fully qualifies as a belief as it is defined by both wikipedia and dictionary.com
Additionally, the following leading scientific organizations have all issued statements that creationism is not a scientific theory:
The constant drumming insistence of creationists that their belief is a theory here and elsewhere itself is significant enough to justify including a mention of it in the article. I propose an outline of their justifications followed by objections/criticisms of those claims.
I do not support Pjacobi's compromise solution on the grounds it would be misleading and confusing to readers who may not understand the nuances and distinction it makes. His proposed sentence is confusing because it is not explicit; it requires of the reader an understanding of the differences and the significance of the differences between "theory" in the sense of a nonacademic belief or notion, and an actual theory, without providing an explanation of those differences. An good encyclopedic entry should present explicit statements, not implicit statements, ill-defined, nuanced statements or tautological statements.
Frankly, the introductory statement is not explicit enough... this is a more accurate statement and and used in the media: "Creationism is the religious doctrine that all living things on Earth were created separately, in more or less their present form, by a supernatural creator, as stated in the Bible; the precise beliefs of different creationist groups vary widely." I propose that this more accurate description identifying creationism as a "religious doctrine" be used in place of belief or theory.-- FeloniousMonk 00:47, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Summary statement of
Philip J. Rayment:
Summary statement of
Rednblu:
Summary statement of
Hob Gadling:
I am definitely against "theory" and don't particularly like "belief". "Movement" is better than both, but I guess "point of view" is the obvious choice. Hob 21:24, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
I didn't participate in the above discussion, but I think I'm the contributor of the disputed sentence. (Let me take a moment and *blush* if I'm not ;-)
Here is what I'd like to see now, in view of the recent, er, unpleasantness:
"Creationism is the belief that the universe, the planet earth and all life on the earth was created as deliberate act by a divine being.
A later sentence -- possibly even in the same intro paragraph -- would identify the religious believers espousing this view, why they believe it, and some important variations of the belief. If this is too much for the lead paragraph, trim it and allude to details to follow:
Jews and Christians cite the Old Testament account in Genesis as authority for their faith: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. ... God created man in his image ... male and female He created them." ( Genesis, chapter one from memory, so please correct the wording)
Whether the view should be called a "belief" or a "theory" is another question. If the term theory is disputed by us contributors, just use view as a catch-all term. I think most of us can agree on belief simply because a lot of people believe this viewpoint. We could also mention somewhere in the article the movement which is trying to get the view re-classified as a scientific theory (see creation science or scientific creationism). Note that the intelligent design movement is also trying to get scientists to agree to use the term hypothesis in a this context. -- Uncle Ed 15:03, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
--- End copy of contents from /What is wrong with the lead section
Summary of the issue:
One point of view:
Another point of view:
--- Begin copy of discussion from /History of Creationism
I removed the reference to Darwin introducing natural selection as it was described by Edward Blyth (a creationist!), 25 years before Origin of the Species. I also removed the references to Darwin not intending to oppose religious accounts but rather opposing Lamarck, as I don't believe it to be true. Stephen Jay Gould claimed that Darwin did intend to oppose the biblical creation story, and as I understand it Darwin implicitly accepted Lamarck's ideas. Philip J. Rayment 12:59, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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In my opinion, that reference to Darwin does not belong there at all. Darwin was not a creationist; he did not contribute to creationism; he did not change creationism. Darwin is irrelevant to the History of creationism--just as Jesus Christ is irrelevant to the History of Judaism. That insertion of Darwin into the History of creationism is only an artifact of the constant evolutionist nuking of the Creationism page--interrupting the explication of the theory with advertisements for motorcars that have nothing to do with the theory.
The format of the Evolution page is about right. Everything about Darwin and evolution should be moved to a minor section "Creationism and Darwin" that would be the structural and logical equivalent to the current " Evolution and religion" section of the Evolution page--presenting the most significant competitive theories. --- Rednblu 17:44, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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I take that as a hypothesis. And I am more interested in the nature of proof for that hypothesis than I am interested in whether your hypothesis is right or wrong. First, I would look for counter-examples--because why waste time proving A when there is a simple counter-example to A? :) So suppose I could show you in Darwin's own letters that the Creationists around him so terrified him that for years he could not bring himself to publish his Origin of Species. Would that be a counter-example to your above hypothesis?
Are you sure you want to say that?--because it seems to me that you are saying there was a very active Creationism movement going before Darwin ever drew his first breath, a very active Creationism movement that had Darwin in such hesitation that he postponed publishing his own theories in opposition to the Creationism movement--even when he knew he was right--because of the outcry he feared that would erupt from the very active, very organized, and long-established Creationism movement that had him under control--until he got the courage to stand up to the Creationist movement that held him back. --- Rednblu 23:18, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Let me introduce you to the Creationism page from which I quote the first sentence: "Creationism is the belief that the universe and all life were created by the deliberate act of God as described in the Bible." I have carefully Wikified links to the nouns in that sentence so that you can point out to me which of the nouns in that definition did not exist before Darwin. Maybe you want to write a new page Creationism (movement)? But your whole conception is as wrong and as myopic as saying that there wasn't a Christianity movement before محمد; "the Christianity movement is a group specifically devoted to obfuscating Muslim science and philosophy." --- Rednblu 00:13, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Nope. You are picking a very unrealistic view of how old the "creationism controversy" is. I have in hand a translation of a gentleman who lived before Christ who had his own movement and explanation in controversy with the creationists. He wrote:
And this gentleman writing before Christ proceeds to lay out a series of explanations that learned men knew was right: Who would create the Creator? Lifeforms had metamorphosed slowly under natural forces into other forms--and eventually into the living animals around us. And there was no need for a Creator to intervene. Certainly, this gentleman living before Christ was not even close yet to guessing at natural selection, but he certainly opposed creationism, and the creationism movement surely condemned him as a heretic and likewise those who similarly tried to figure out the details of how we could metamorphose over many generations from beasts to men. Aren't you interested in the facts? --- Rednblu 02:12, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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In what way do you think that Darwin's ideas changed the "creationism controversy"? Creationism continued to argue from the old-fashioned foundation of faith. Look at the facts. Do you mean to say that Darwin's ideas changed the "evolutionism controversy"? That is, probably you can find some writings of Thomas Huxley that support the idea that Darwin's ideas changed the "evolutionism controversy" by giving the evolutionists a hypothesis "to get hold of clear and definite conceptions which could be brought face to face with facts and have their validity tested." [31] But that did not change the "creationism controversy" one whit; the creationists still argued from faith and common sense--as they have for over two thousand years. --- Rednblu 03:17, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Surely, you don't really think Old-Earth creationism and all of those other pretenses are "massive changes." They are just preacher homiletic tricks to package the same old faith. Do they look like science to you? Heaven help you if they do. They were around long before Darwin got into the act. These are all ancient ideas; they go back at least to the Greeks. But let's just take "modern" examples before Darwin. For example, around 1824 the Reverand William Buckland in introducing the first dinosaur fossil Megalosaurus already was interpreting the "days" of creation as "ages" in order to explain that there had been giant beasts around long before men appeared.
The idea that there had to be an Intelligent Designer was argued by William Paley as early as 1809. on-line text And Theistic Evolution was argued at least as early as an 1845 London Times article where a reviewer says about Reverand Buckland's 1836 Bridgewater Treatise that "his general conclusion being, that the present world was constructed out of the materials of a former one; that former one from the wreck of its predecessor; and so upwards, ad infinitum." (The London Times Monday, Jun 23, 1845; pg. 6; Issue 18957; col A) Darwin no more changed "creationism" than Lavoisier changed phlogiston theory; Darwin may have disproved "creationism" but he had negligible effect on the content of the "creationism" theory that he disproved. --- Rednblu 08:42, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
<<Let me introduce you to the Creationism page from which I quote the first sentence: "Creationism is the belief that the universe and all life were created by the deliberate act of God as described in the Bible." .... Maybe you want to write a new page Creationism (movement)?>>
Actually, after logging off last night, I had the thought that instead of "belief", "view", "doctrine", or similar, perhaps the best wording is Creationism is the movement... I agree with Steinsky in that creationism as a movement only began as a response to Darwinism, and even though before that there were creationists, and debate about creation vs. something else, the word creationism was not used in that context. (Rednblu, did you look at these links-- [32] [33] [34]-- that I previously included?)
So I guess the question is, should this article be about the creationism movement, that has existed for less than 200 years, or should it cover the entire history of debate about creation? I suggest that we concentrate on the creationism movement that was a response to Darwinism, but include a bit of "background" in the form of documenting some of the earlier debate.
Philip J. Rayment 12:10, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Perhaps the communism page is a good template. That is, as with the word "communism," once you have the definition for the " -ism," to be accurate, you will have to look back through history to the Greeks to see whether the "-ism" existed even back then. Your three links are interesting, but I don't see anything beginning just because someone put an English word on it. The mechanics of Magnetism are unchanged whether you apply the English word to the phenomenon or not--likewise for "creationism" or "communism." The English word is merely a label that you put on the phenomenon.
Perhaps. But the driving force even in "creationism as movement" is not the movement. The driving force is the common sense appeal of the theory within "creationism." For example, the "theory" of "creationism" makes the best sense to people who are unconvinced by the facts that suggest evolution; 2000 years ago the "theory" of "creationism" made more sense to some people than the facts that supported the "theory" of " atomism". They look into their "heart of hearts," and they say "God did it" -- facts be damned. It is the same theory and it is the same appeal that has worked at least for the last 2000 years. --- Rednblu 16:48, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Nobody is denying that, you know, we are allowed to cover both pre- and post-Darwin Creationism in the article! You seem to be set on removing the section on the effects of Darwin's idea from the article, but only because the creationism philosophy existed before Darwin? -- Steinsky 17:08, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Yes--because Darwin's idea had negligible effect on the "belief," "controversy," or "theory" of creationism. One of the predominant features of "creationism" is that it does not evolve in the face of the threats from the competition. Instead of evolving, "creationism" responds to science--not with science--but with repackages of the old faith and common sense arguments--churning through the same old set of 2000 year-old interpretations and fudges of Biblical text packaged in modern language.
Do you still contend that Old-Earth creationism, Theistic Evolution, and Intelligent Design grew out of Darwin's idea? In my opinion, it would be accurate to pull all of the Darwin material into a section "Creationism disproved." But it is a disservice to the reader to embed the Creationism page with the current infestation of pop-up ads for Darwin's idea. The reader comes to Creationism in the hope of reading a clear exposition of "creationism." Why isn't the Evolution page a sufficient advertisement for "evolution"? --- Rednblu 18:04, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
You think these pages are advertising Darwin's ideas? I still contend that the OEC, TE and ID exist as reponses to Darwinism, why would I change my mind, you have provided no evidence to the contrary? -- Steinsky 18:36, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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What in Intelligent Design is not just homiletic repackaging of William Paley's 1809 book Natural Theology? Notice, I am giving you an on-line link to the actual text. In my understanding, homiletics is the kind of repackaging of the Bible lesson that a good pastor does in giving modern stories and examples to elucidate the underlying dogma of what he or she is trying to get across to those sitting in the Sunday church pews. --- Rednblu 19:06, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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I don't think I've come across the word before, you appear right that ID is homiletics, but my point is that it is a significant example of homiletics because:
Steinsky 19:28, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Would you agree with the following?
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<<For example, the "theory" of "creationism" makes the best sense to people who are unconvinced by the facts that suggest evolution; 2000 years ago the "theory" of "creationism" made more sense to some people ...>>
This may be just semantics, perhaps, but maybe it illustrates some of the disagreement. I would have written that sentence (without the quotes) as "For example, the theory of creation makes the best sense to people who are unconvinced by the facts that suggest evolution; 2000 years ago the theory of creation made more sense to some people...". Creation is the idea/theory/model, creationism is the movement. By the way Rednblu, thanks for fixing those links.
<<Darwin's idea had negligible effect on the "belief," "controversy," or "theory" of creationism.>>
It, along with uniformitarian geology, had quite a big effect. They gave rise to various compromise ideas (day-age, gap theory, theistic evolution, etc.) and changed creation from being the dominant paradigm to almost wiping it out, before it started to claw its way back.
<<One of the predominant features of "creationism" is that it does not evolve in the face of the threats from the competition. Instead of evolving, "creationism" responds to science--not with science--but with repackages of the old faith and common sense arguments--churning through the same old set of 2000 year-old interpretations and fudges of Biblical text packaged in modern language.>>
It didn't evolve because it didn't believe in evolution! (sorry). It did change, and it does respond with science (as well as Scripture). They are certainly not the same old arguments (some may be), but there are a whole lot of new argument used.
Philip J. Rayment 16:54, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Can you get a copy of Reverand William Buckland's 1836 Bridgewater Treatise? I once had a link to an on-line copy; I would give you the link, but the site disappeared. In my opinion, Buckland sketched out the logic of day-age, gap theory, and theistic evolution before he ever read Darwin. And Buckland published those pieces of creationism theory before Darwin returned from his Beagle voyages. Of course, Buckland did not talk about how God guided natural selection, but he talked about how God guided a series of extinctions of life and how God built the next set of creatures from the fragments of the prior creatures, starting with an earth that had no creatures, then microscopic creatures, then vast dinosaurs--like the Megalosaurus that Reverand Buckland himself introduced to the science world--and finally, according to Buckland's 1836 treatise, God built man from the fragments of the creatures of the world in which no man existed. And Buckland wrote about all of that day-age, gap theory, and theistic evolution before Darwin got back from his Beagle voyages--so, in my opinion, Darwin had little effect on day-age, gap theory, and theistic evolution--except maybe give a trivial label--"natural selection"--to what it was that God guided. --- Rednblu 17:47, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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So were Darwin's ideas popularizers of "creationism"? Or were the writings of "creationists," such as Reverand Schofield popularisers of "evolutionism"? In any case, it seems to me that the creationism theory was firmly in place before Darwin. Perhaps, all of the references to Darwin should be moved to a section "People influential in popularizing the Gap Theory." --- Rednblu 19:03, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Let's keep the debate focused and on topic. The original question and purpose of this Talk is the question: Should Darwin be Darwin be mentioned in the Creationism article? Remember wikipedia policy: "The Talk pages are not a place to debate which views are right or wrong or better. If you want to do that, there are venues such as Usenet, public weblogs and other wikis."
--- My position is yes, mention of Darwin needs to remain as part of the creationism article.
A Creationism article without Darwin is like a Goliath article without David.-- FeloniousMonk 09:59, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
--- End copy of discussion from /History of Creationism
Myself and several others over the last three months have noted in the discussions here what appears to be a loosely organized campaign on this and related articles to work POV statements and positions into the articles by repeatedly using a particular set of tactics. The most common tactic seen has been to tie up those holding the consensus view that is unfavorable to a particular POV in endless debates over semantic arguments over common terms and drawn out debates on peripheral topics, all while ignoring or denying the existence of prevailing, well-established consensus opinions. The point of this tactic is to wear down and confuse any opposition and muddle the issues making the introduction of POV content easier. The use of this particular tactic violates the wikipedia policies on abusing Talk pages: "The Talk pages are not a place to debate which views are right or wrong or better. If you want to do that, there are venues such as Usenet, public weblogs and other wikis." and that wikipedia is not a battleground for ideologies.
A quick perusal of the recent debate of whether creationism is a "theory" has good examples of the tactic being used, as will the User Talk and home pages of some of the participants.
I would like to see the opinions of users here and reach consensus as to how best to deal with campaigns bent on promoting a particular POV that can avoid the wikipedia mediation process.-- FeloniousMonk 09:43, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
You are very right to bring this up Mr. Monk, more than you realize. I've been watching this ongoing drama for the last few weeks with some amusement, because obviously none of you have any idea who you are dealing with. Rednblu is contributing here under false pretenses: he is a notorious, longtime usenet creationist crank and crackpot. His pro-creationism, pro-religion, anti-evolution posts and rants comprise one of the most famous creationist campaigns in usenet history. Longtime users of talk.origins, alt.atheism, and alt.fan.publius are very familiar with his tactics there: flooding the boards with attempts to control debates and misrepresenting his own views and those who dare oppose him. He employs deceit, insults and ingratiating flattery in equal, copious portions. The time is here for the truth to be made known, you are facing one the usenet's most notorious POV creationist campaigners here, despite his claims to being a supporter evolution.
Some on the usenet cite an article claiming Rednblu is a grad student experiment or a bot, though there is an actual person that goes by his real name. Search Google Groups for Rednblu and read for yourselves, dear readers, then decide if his dishonesty and POV campaigning is something that you want to put up with here...-- Logic hammer 03:36, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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I will not speak as though Rednblu has been convicted or proved to be acting in Bad Faith. But your accusations are serious. If they are real (and let me be clear that I have enjoyed Rednblu's contributions), he must be disciplined formally. Tom - Talk 23:11, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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Too bad we didn't benefit from Rednblu's concern for other users here when you ran three different Talk page discussions to absurd lengths in an effort to insert your POV into this article and Intelligent Design over the last three weeks...
To the extent that it is here now, the existing content of this discussion should stay where it is as it grew out of Rednblu's actions here and relates directly to his imputed objectivity and that of his propositions made here. Additional discussion can take place elsewhere on wikipedia as needed, including his and my User talk pages. Beyond the allegations made by Logic hammer above, I assert that Rednblu has been conducting a mendacious campaign rewrite the Creationism and Intelligent Design articles to suit his POV, to which end he is constantly restructuring/refactoring of Talk pages to favor your POV, continually resurrecting previously settled NPOV topics, and flooding Talk pages with long, drawn-out off topic debates, violated has willfully violated the BBC terms and conditions for the use of their content.-- FeloniousMonk 23:56, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
No I disagree that this needs to be kept private. "To keep from disturbing our neighbors" seems a blatant attempt to control the discussion, and in itself seems to me to be highly suspicious and perhaps even symptomatic of trolling. Perhaps he thinks that here, there will be less attention, but clearly you can't hide anything on wikipedia. I noticed this discussion, and others will as well. If this IS trolling, it will definitely be dealt with. On the other hand, if this is unfounded slander it will also be dealt with. Logic hammer might very well be (or equally NOT BE) the same person, in fact, as trolls often use sockpuppets with opposing views to bring more discussion, and argument, and as each 'side' increasingly supports the different troll POVs, the original trolls quietly slip away, leaving dissension and confusion behind. Not to point any fingers, as I am going offline, but I will be looking this over with great attention. Comments welcome here or my talk page. Pedant 21:27, 2004 Nov 7 (UTC)
I would like to bring up a separate topic on the lead opening statements. As follows, in regards to this part,
""This debate is highly controversial and is not considered a serious debate by most scientists.""
I object to this part. It is not a neutral view. I propose the following modification. This debate is highly controversial as demonstrated by the famous scopes trial for inclusion of evolution into public schools, a majority of scientists do not consider creationism a scientific proposal but a religious doctrine therefore outside the scientific Method.
To say not a "serious" topic is bias IMHO. I think my description is more neutral and to the point, I mean come on "most"? a majority would be a better term.
To the majority not serious? to minority is? I mean really I think my description is more to point and explains the "most" what most? a majority right? and this most what do they object to? no scientific method. Also it is a serious subject for debate legal and scientific as demonstrated in our courts, it needs a qualifier like I have about the scientific method. If it is not serious why the big deal in the courts?
Vistronic --
Vistronic 07:00, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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This discussion probably belongs as part of the discussion at Talk:Creationism/What_is_wrong_with_the_lead_section.
Regarding the statement in the article: "This debate is highly controversial and is not considered a serious debate by most scientists." The statement is consistent with the wikipedia NPOV policy and the wikipedia style guide. It is a factually accurate statement, most scientists do not seriously consider creationism to be a serious alternative explanation to evolution, though proponents of creationism continue to insist that it is while denying science's primacy in the matter, thereby creating their own controversy. That the issue still occasionally finds its way into the courts because creationism proponents insist on promoting it as an alternative to scientific explanations is not much of a strong endorsement of its relevancy, but says more about the mendaciousness of creationism's boosters.-- FeloniousMonk 08:47, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
If you will note I have not dismissed the fact that a majority of Scientists reject creationism.No I do not dismiss that but clarify it. Second the premise assumes that Science by default is the ultimate truth, or should I say trumps religious truth, I am not trying to debate here, what I am saying is this ARTICLE on creationism sounds like its written by a evolutionist! At least in this part... why do I say that it is.. it omits the fact that some consider creationism a subject of faith! Yet here we go again trying to box it up in science and the science method, Why? We are talking creationism here NOT DEBATING ITS FAULTS. so SCIENTISTS don't take it serious whoopee! Millions of others do! Should we now take a poll and then post the results here? Maybe we should call it a cult? or polls show only Fundy's in America think such things. No a definition should be neutral... not subject to EVO scientists to define creationism! Give me a break, please read my revision it is NOT BIAS.
To define a religious statement by EVO scientists.... well its like different don't you see that? Again my revision, what is wrong with it? what are its errors? does it not say about the same thing but better? I mean using the word "most" is kind of simple in this context? no?
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I agree that the "controversial" tag violates all reasonable standards of neutrality. That "controversial" tag is just another pop-up advertisement for the scientific method as being the only true point-of-view. And as most advertisements, the "controversial" tag is irrelevant to the subject of the page, which is "creationism."
My main criticism of your proposed substitute header tag is that it is too long, if I may say so. I hereby move that we just remove the "controversial" tag altogether. --- Rednblu 16:08, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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I disagree that the "controversial" tag is unreasonable or an "advertisement for the scientific method as being the only true point-of-view". No reasonable person viewing the volume of debate on the Talk pages for Creationism and its nine archives(!) would conclude that the subject of creationism is not controversial, not to mention the fact that creationists constantly fan the flames of the controversy themselves by insisting that creationism be taught alongside or in place of evolution or other scientific explanations. In fact, the current favored tactic of Intelligent Design proponents, which is a proxy argument for creationism, is to "teach the controversy", cementing the fact that creationism is indeed a controversial subject.
The controversial tag was placed for good reason, because creationism is a controversial topic both here on wikipedia and in American society in general. Any effort to redefine it as otherwise demonstrates a POV bias. I oppose any effort to remove the tag.-- FeloniousMonk 17:47, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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Back in the Dark Ages, the Scientific method page was mislabeled with the "controversial" tag; that mislabeling resulted from the bigotry of the theists who wrongfully insisted on defining what the scientists--not theists--should be defining. In the case of the Creationism page, the mislabeling with the "controversy" tag results from the bigotry of those who 1) believe in the preeminence of science and 2) insist on defining what no standard of neutrality would allow non-creationists to define. --- Rednblu 18:31, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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Do you actually have an argument that even attempts to prove creationism not controversial here on wikipedia or in American society? Or does your assertion rest on your previously made allegation that there's a conspiracy of scientists at wikipedia?-- FeloniousMonk 19:04, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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The value of Scientific method in explaining Origins is as "controversial" in the American society as is the value of Creationism. sample poll And in fairness and even-handedness,
I am not objecting to the put-down in "is not considered a serious debate by most scientists"; just state it accurately. If Richard Dawkins said it, then use Richard Dawkins actual words--that would be accurate. In paragraph 2, the phrase "is not considered a serious debate by most scientists" is purposefully deceptive--because we all know that scientists consider this debate to be so serious that highly regarded scientists like Richard Dawkins will devote a Hell of a lot of time and effort to win that debate. --- Rednblu 20:00, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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That's a terribly specious argument: a poll that finds the scientific method as "controversial" as creationism in explaining Origins is not the same as saying the scientific method is controversial at all. Not even close. And you've failed to make your case, or any case for that matter, that creationism is indeed not controversial on wikipedia or in society.
The existing second paragraph currently reads: "Most creationists reject the modern evolutionary synthesis (the current scientific theory of evolution) because it attempts to explain the appearance of life without divine intervention. In this article, supporters of evolution will be referred to as evolutionists. The creationism controversy is the debate between creationists and evolutionists about the origins of life. This debate is highly controversial and is not considered a serious debate by most scientists."
As long as the article's lead statement contains reference to creationism's opposition to evolution, it is only appropriate to qualify how the opposition views creationist's assertions.
The existing phrase "This debate is highly controversial and is not considered a serious debate by most scientists. " accurately reflects reality and should remain as part of the lead section. Quotations of specific scientists and reference to relevant policy statements made by scientific organizations can be accommodated elsewhere in the article. Keeping the existing statement in its current location is central to understanding creationism's status in society as long as the proponents of creationism continue to: 1) insist that creationism is an equally plausible alternative to our scientific understanding of our origin, 2) insist that scientific explanations for our origin are wrong, biased, or part of a anti-creationism conspiracy 3) insist that creationism be taught alongside or in place of scientific explanations in science classes. -- FeloniousMonk 20:40, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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Hello I must say I find this discussion interesting. I also noticed that somehow my revision is now appearing on the main page?! I thought it was removed?! Anyways as far as I can assimilate, the revision is better EXCEPT for length; that may have merit, the whole opening being too long in whole, but really I see little that needs to be trimmed. By mentioning the Scopes Trial the whole topic is really driven to home base. By mentioning the Scientific Method the EVO opposition that is mentioned in the previous line is brought to the fore front. Look I am new here so I am trying to work the system whatever that may be... But I am not new to the topic; I have spent a great deal of time on this topic, and I consider myself to have somewhat of an open mind. But the line.... Not a serious debate? Look at this talk page! Look at all the INTERNET! The statement needs to be clarified and my revision I think does that.. it is not a serious debate AGAINST the scientific method--For a majority of scientists. Look! Is creationism to be defined by the scientific method in its description? I think not, but I agree it's appropriate to mention such. Again this is quite interesting, glad I am playing a small part. Vis. -- -- Vistronic 03:33, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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The "controversial" tag on the article surely refers to any controversy surrounding the content of the article, not any controversy surrounding creationism. So some of the arguments put by FeloniousMonk and others are invalid, but the fact remains that the content of this article is controversial, as seen by all the discussion on these talk pages. In theory (although I'm not too hopeful), we could get to the stage where we could have a non-controversial article about the creationism controversy. Then, we could remove the "controversial" tag.
As for the phrase "is not considered a serious debate by most scientists", this phrase is ambiguous at best. Most scientists don't consider creation worthy of serious (or any) consideration, but on the other hand, most scientists think that creationism is a serious matter than cannot afford to be ignored, even to the extent of organisations being started and books being written with the express purpose of opposing it! Now that's serious!
Philip J. Rayment 15:06, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
i like very much Ed Poor's recent edit. - Lethe | Talk
Considering that Barry Setterfield's article about the decay of C is an example of Junk Science (see http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/c-decay.html ), don't you guys give it a little too much credit by not mentioning that it is a fraud?
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May I in a soft voice :) suggest that we develop the documentation of these two oppositely-clustered scholarly POVs on the definition of "natural selection" by careful citation and maybe even short quotes to published articles and books? For example, has some molecular biologist used in a publication something like Ed's excellent metaphor of "selecting-in versus selecting-out" to discuss various routes to speciation? I am looking. --- Rednblu 16:19, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Summary: A POV argument ignoring science.
Christianity is far from the only religion which advocates creationism. References to "Christian," "Christianity," and "Bible" should be replaced with terms that include all three Abrahamic religions. Excluding Judaism and Islam simply because Christianity is the most popular advocate of creationism in the 'States ("english speaking world"?) makes this article philosophically inaccurate. Excluding Judaism in particular is quite unusual, seeing as Christians draw their records of creation from Torah texts.
I also had problems with the following sentence: "However, not all Christians are creationists, nor are all creationists Christian. In fact, other major religions believe some variant of Creationism, though often not in such terms." I attempted to fix the sentence by replacing "Christian" with theist, but the statement would no longer be true, as I'm fairly sure all theistic creationists are indeed theists. I have removed the sentence altogether.
This article should not become a propaganda pamphlet for Southern Baptist "Christian Creationism." Shem 10:09, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
No, I meant what was typed. "Theistic creationists" meaning those who hold that the universe was created by a deity, as opposed to those who might suggest an extraterrestrial theory. The sentence "not all Christians are creationists, nor are all creationists Christians" cannot be changed to read "theists," as I'm fairly certain all (theistic) creationsts are indeed theists.
So far as prominence goes, Christianity should not hold a place above any other Abrahamic religion in this article, especially not Judaism (nor should any of the others hold prominence over Christianity, as well). Fact is, the "records" of creation come from Torah texts, courtesy of Moses, via Judaism before Christianity. That you believe Christians are paying more vocal attention to it does not change the idea's origins, nor does it change that all three Abrahamic religions (largely) hold it in truth.
Christianity may contain more creationists, but its followers were also the first "theistic evolutionists" in the religion scene, if I recall correctly. I can't say that I know of any prominent "theistic evolutionist" Jews or Muslims. Shem 03:45, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Throughout this discussion please be aware of the difference between Creationism and Young Earth Creationism. Most Christians (and I imagine Jews and Muslims) are Creationists - i.e. they believe that the Universe was created by God. Outside the US only a minority are Young Earthers. There is already an article on Young Earth Creationism and I think some of the stuff here should go there. DJ Clayworth 21:10, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Heya -- a little afraid to jump in here for fear of getting in trouble. i don't have a strong pov here but i like to think i'm well-versed in all pov's involved. lemme know if i piss you off. Ungtss 04:52, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
the following might be somewhat pov, so I won't change the the main article until I've figured out a way to npov it.
Well that's what the intro says at the moment, creationism is the opposite of evolutionism. But um, in modern usage, evolutionism is just a rhetorical straw man. Ie "If you're not a creationist you must be an evolutionist", or "If you're not a christian you must be a satanist". It doesn't actually exist! Even though many folks might think it does. Witches and satanic rituals don't really exist either.
In general no real evolutionists (in the modern sense) have really existed until recently, just like no satanists have existed until some folks got inspired by th wild stories.
From a scientific viewpoint, evolutionism would be a cargo cult.
Ok, now to fix the article based on that.
That'll sort of be a problem though. Defining something as the opposite of something that doesn't exist isn't really a good idea in the first place.
Hmm, I know, how about saying that "Creationism is the belief that the world, and all life was created by God" (This is actually more all inclusive than I used to think :-) ). Leave out the anti bit, I don't think there really is one. (the opposite of creationism might be "Satan created the world"
Oh well, at least no one tried to compare Creationism with the Theory of Evolution, since those are from very disparate branches of philosophy. So thank God no one actually tried that! ;-)
Any suggestions?
Kim Bruning 11:35, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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In my opinion, creationists in the Creationism page should be able to use the word "evolutionist" as a label for the advocates of evolutionary thought at least with the meanings that Charles Darwin used the word "evolutionist." I cite to you just two sentences from the Sixth Edition of Origin of Species. [46]
From both of the above sentences, I would conclude that Charles Darwin would subscribe to the phrase, "I am an evolutionist" at least, according to Thomas Huxley when Darwin was talking with Thomas Huxley and Darwin's creationist wife Emma was not around.
Similarly, creationists in the Creationism page should be able to use the word "evolutionism" in the same way that the English newspapers used the word "evolutionism" as a label for the advocacy of evolution as the explanation for the diversity of life on earth. Was the label "evolutionism" a made up word? Yes, at some period in time all the ism words were made up from the word fragments of the previous generations. In fact, by my recollection, most of today's ism words were invented by Charles Darwin's contemporaries. I note in particular Thomas Carlyle's repeated invention of a new ism word as he boldly labeled, contrasted, and criticized the strains of thought competing during Charles Darwin's lifetime.
Since I find no deviation of the modern English dictionary meanings of evolutionist and evolutionism from the usage of Charles Darwin and his contemporaries, I conclude and assert that the creationists should feel free to use the terms evolutionist and evolutionism in the Creationism page with exactly the definitions provided by the modern English dictionary, such as the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, Oxford English Dictionary, or the American Heritage Dictionary, pick your edition.
Specifically, the following sentence, though more convoluted than necessary, would qualify as NPOV by Wikipedia standards--because this sentence accurately summarizes the contrasting POVs of Charles Darwin and his contemporaries as stated expressly by Charles Darwin and his contemporaries.
I don't mind whatever you say, but do note that currently there is a difference between
Like RTFA even. If the creationism page wants to contrast with evolutionism, that's fine, but note that there are very few realistic proponents of evolutionism in existence, as far as I'm aware. (Those that exist should probably be put out of their misery). Comparing with such a weak position wouldn't really add much to the article. This is not the place to attack evolutionism though, that'd be at that article. :-)
Kim Bruning 18:50, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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In my opinion, the Creationism page is one of those pages where the published scholarly POVs are so clustered at such widely scattered poles that the only way to construct a NPOV lead section is to quote and paraphrase some key scholar in each of the widely separated clusters. For example, the second paragraph of the lead section of Creationism sketching the broad spread of creationist and evolutionist views might have a structure something like the following.
It would seem to me that quoting a key scholar in each of the contrasting categories of Mr. Ungtss's interest would satisfy Ms. Bruning's excellent criticisms--that it is unacceptable POV to force labels onto people who object to the labels. I would say that you could quote some scholar who forced those labels onto people; you could say Scholar A forced those labels onto people. But then, it seems to me, you would have to acknowledge and quote the people who object to having those labels forced onto them. Hence, it might be easier to quote a key scholar in each cluster so that the people in that cluster would say, "Hey. I agree with that. I own that label. And I aggee with Mr. Ungtss's characterizations of all those other clusters out there that are wrong." :)
I would say that Ms. Bruning points to the modern situation in which many modern "evolutionists" reject having the label "evolutionist" forced upon them--a label which Charles Darwin finally owned as his own in the Sixth edition. But if you examine Darwin's first five editions of Origin of Species, you will see that Charles Darwin resisted even having the label "evolution" put on his theory. Hence, the first five editions of Origin of Species contain neither the word evolution nor evolutionist! [47] So for thirteen years after first publishing Origin of Species Darwin himself rejected having the labels evolutionist and evolution put on him and his work. --- Rednblu | Talk 19:53, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
A lot can happen while I'm away for the weekend! Here are my responses to the comments in this section.
Philip J. Rayment 01:45, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I plan on moving the "Creationism in public education" section to the Creationism in public education page according to the ToDo list we have been discussing as a means of bringing the Creationism page size to within reasonable limits. Does anybody have any new objections or discussion? --- Rednblu | Talk 05:40, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Let me summarize what may be a POV problem with the page title Creation accounts in Genesis. I open this question here because the master ToDo list for the Creationism series is maintained at the top of this TalkPage.
Before we go changing the title, can someone clarify as to who believes that there is only one creation account? As a 6-day creationist, I consider it to be quite clear that there are two accounts. (What I don't agree with is that the two accounts are in any way inconsistent or contradictory.) Actually, looking again at what Rednblu said, is that some believe that there is "one creation account described from two perspectives". Are we just playing with words here? What does "account" mean in this context? Does the very use of the word somehow indicate inconsistency or something? Philip J. Rayment 00:37, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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Sorry for the lack of history in the proposal. Here is a short explanation of history. I jumped into a little tussle :) and proposed a compromise. Someone renamed the "accounts" page to read "account(s)" and a little revert tussle erupted in my opinion. :) I proposed a compromise to remove the varieties of the word account from the page title completely.
I like Mr. Dreams's suggestion of Creation according to Genesis best of all. Does anybody have see a fault in that title? Is there any reason to retain some variation of the word account? --- Rednblu | Talk 01:09, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In the section about belief in god vs evolution (philosophical naturalism, or something), there is mention of Ashley Montague as a notable advocate of both God and Evolution. Who the hell is Ashley Montagu? Could we put someone of World standing here instead, so that it actually becomes meaningful to people outside of wherever it is that Ashley Montagu has been heard of? CheeseDreams 21:09, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
1) i'd like to change the name of the "creation accountS in genesis" page to "creation account(s) in genesis" 2) i'd like permission to remove the text in the creation account(s) section, and leave a simple link to the new page.
any thoughts?
Ungtss 21:56, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I HEARBY APOLOGIZE FOR RESPONDING TO CHEESEDREAM'S INCIVILITY WITH INCIVILITY OF MY OWN. please forgive my error. Ungtss 23:13, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
(For a continuation of this conversation, see /Talk.)
--- Begin cut of essay
How Did Genesis Know?
31 Many find it hard to accept this creation account. They contend that it is drawn from the creation myths of ancient peoples, primarily those from ancient Babylon. However, as one recent Bible dictionary noted: “No myth has yet been found which explicitly refers to the creation of the universe” and the myths “are marked by polytheism and the struggles of deities for supremacy in marked contrast to the Heb[rew] monotheism of [Genesis] 1-2.”3 Regarding Babylonian creation legends, the trustees of the British Museum stated: “The fundamental conceptions of the Babylonian and Hebrew accounts are essentially different.”4
32 From what we have considered, the Genesis creation account emerges as a scientifically sound document. It reveals the larger categories of plants and animals, with their many varieties, reproducing only “according to their kinds.” The fossil record provides confirmation of this. In fact, it indicates that each “kind” appeared suddenly, with no true transitional forms linking it with any previous “kind,” as required by the evolution theory.
33 All the knowledge of the wise men of Egypt could not have furnished Moses, the writer of Genesis, any clue to the process of creation. The creation myths of ancient peoples bore no resemblance to what Moses wrote in Genesis. Where, then, did Moses learn all these things? Apparently from someone who was there.
34 The science of mathematical probability offers striking proof that the Genesis creation account must have come from a source with knowledge of the events. The account lists 10 major stages in this order: (1) a beginning; (2) a primitive earth in darkness and enshrouded in heavy gases and water; (3) light; (4) an expanse or atmosphere; (5) large areas of dry land; (6) land plants; (7) sun, moon and stars discernible in the expanse, and seasons beginning; (8) sea monsters and flying creatures; (9) wild and tame beasts, mammals; (10) man. Science agrees that these stages occurred in this general order. What are the chances that the writer of Genesis just guessed this order? The same as if you picked at random the numbers 1 to 10 from a box, and drew them in consecutive order. The chances of doing this on your first try are 1 in 3,628,800! So, to say the writer just happened to list the foregoing events in the right order without getting the facts from somewhere is not realistic.
35 However, evolutionary theory does not allow for a Creator who was there, knew the facts and could reveal them to humans. Instead, it attributes the appearance of life on earth to the spontaneous generation of living organisms from inanimate chemicals. But could undirected chemical reactions relying on mere chance create life?
--- End cut of essay
What is the point of this essay? --- Rednblu | Talk 02:28, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Disregarding the the other biases in the article, I would have to say that quoting the PAW poll as greater than 50% support for teaching creationism is the same as quoting 99% support for teaching Christianity by defining 'teaching Christianity' as 'mentioning the Bible in class.' Historical and philisophical education is vastly different from scientific education.
First, the link to the wiki entry for Edwards v. Aguillard is right there (and I moved the quote there); second, this is in a section that was supposedly moved to a daughter page; it should be short.
I think we can reach a one or two sentence summary that we can agree upon. How about this:
Most recently, the Supreme Court has held in their ruling of Edwards_v._Aguillard that laws concerning theories of origins (even creationist ones) taught in public schools must have a secular purpose and scientific merit, using the test laid down in Lemon_v._Kurtzman.
- Fleacircus 20:56, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I removed:
The first phrase is redundant, the reference to "evangelical fundamentalists" is (what's the term?) perjorative?, it is no more associated with Fred Nile than many other people, I question whether it has any less social prominence than in the U.S.A, and from what I can gather, it hasn't achieved any legislative prominence in the U.S.A. anyway, with most legislative attempts being rejected. Philip J. Rayment 02:36, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In the edit of 20:20, 24 Nov 2004, something went wrong. Can somebody figure it out and fix it? --- Rednblu | Talk 06:56, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think it's ok now; I changed the Links section from <h4> to ====. Now the sections seem to work. --- Ben Standeven 02:41, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
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I formatted the Creationism page in the standard Main Article summary and layout that is used, for example, in the Evolution and Human pages as has been discussed on this TalkPage for over a year. Please refer to the Creationism archives and subsequent discussions if you have any questions. :)) --- Rednblu | Talk 21:40, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Summaries of other articles shouldnt be here because it's redundant and can cause inconsistency when one of the pages covering the same subject changes while the other remains unchanged. Grice 10:57, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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Summaries of "Main articles" are the Wikipedia standard, as you can see in the Evolution and Human pages, just for two examples. Can you give me a Wikipedia example of a page where "Summaries of 'Main articles'" was considered by the Wikipedia community to be "redundant and causing inconsistency"? --- Rednblu | Talk 15:16, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've corrected sentence introducing Phillip E. Johnson to reflect that Phillip Johnson's claims are not general, but highly particular.-- FeloniousMonk 06:23, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Additionally, it would be in the article's interest to add some context around the Phillip E. Johnson bit with some of the opposing viewpoints for balance.-- FeloniousMonk 06:26, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It seems to me that this page is really poor. There isn't a well-defined use of the term "creationist". The opening paragraph seems to indicate that a creationist is someone who believes in Genesis creation. However, later on there are references to a 1997 Gallup poll that was completely neutral to whether the respondent was a believer in a Judeo-Christian formulation or some other formulation of theism. Furthermore, there are "creationists" who believe such things as the Earth and even the universe was "created" by aliens, for example. Is this a form of creationism? If not, then we should really define what exactly we are talking about. 67.172.158.8 17:56, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
you can't place yec as a straw-man in opposition to science -- that's one pov. the yec folks believe that science SUPPORTS a young earth. to set YEC in "opposition" to science in the first paragraph is pov ... and an especially damaging pov on a page like this. as to the "scientific consensus," it was Karl Popper who said, "I don't believe that success proves anything." Ungtss 00:49, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
In the UK certainly most people use the term YEC to describe those that assert that the scientific method would back up their beliefs. I'm sure there are those that take the belief without believing in the scientific method but are they common enough to warrant discussion? I reverted to Ungtss' version. Barnaby dawson 16:05, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There are definitely people who are YECs that use evidence other than that from science to back up their assertions. As such, the statement is too narrow to be correct. 67.172.158.8 18:00, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There seems to be some clamoring for a removal of the statement that most YECs are fundamentalists. This is surprising, because it is definitely one of the primary perspectives of every YEC I've ever met. 67.172.158.8 16:28, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
<<Do you actually evaluate the claims of geology, astronomy, chemistry, nuclear physics, etc. and find them wanting?>>
<<What references do you use to support your claims?>>
I have read Ungtss' comments and remain unimpressed. Here is the Wikipedia definition for YEC:
There is no account of any claim to science in the first paragraph. I will not take the time to debunk the incorrect science stated by user Ungtss, since he can edit any of the statements in the Wikipedia library if he were really to believe this (for example, he could edit the article on the conservation of angular momentum if he believes that there is no way to get rotation in astrophysical gas clouds), but I have edited the definition to my satisfaction. YEC relies either on a faith-based rejection of modern science (as pseudoscience or as naturalism or as secularism) but is not on the whole necessarily scientific.
As to the claim that there are no references to this, the reasonable thing to do is refer to self-described Young Earth Creationists. Polling makes no sense because the term is self-descriptive. I can refer to any number of websites that reject prevailing scientific notions of astronomy, geology, biology, physics, etc. in favor of Young Earth Creationism. As such, they necessarily reject scientific statements. I can also refer to most Young Earth Creationist literature as accepting a literal interpretation of Genesis. Therefore, I have justified my edits and will continue to maintain the position. 67.172.158.8 02:18, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
<<I have edited the definition to my satisfaction.>>
<<As to the claim that there are no references to this, the reasonable thing to do is refer to self-described Young Earth Creationists.>>
<<Young Earth creationism is the belief that the Earth and life on Earth were created by a direct action of God a relatively short time ago. The belief is held by the Christians, Jews, and Muslims who believe that the ancient Hebrew text of Genesis is a historical account.>>
<<This is beside the point. First, the unsubstantiated atheistic claim is merely an ad hominem for you to state, but the last sentence in the Age of the Earth article states it all. Just look into how the work was done and evaluated. It's very meticulous and you've obviously not read it.>>
Here is a link: [51] ~
(UTC)
From your site:
From my site:
The article is untractable and doesn't deal with the simple explanations provided. It is also the reason I reverted. Joshuaschroeder 23:16, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
i understand that. but you've only quoted the intro to my article, without even considering the length of it on isochron dating.
<<Potassium-argon dating, for example, assumes that minerals form with no argon in them. Since argon is an inert gas, it will usually be excluded from forming crystals.>>
perhaps if you'd read the article more thoroughly, you would have noticed this:
um ... would you care to justify the revert of an edit which added factual information without deleting anything? Ungtss 22:43, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
josh, what relevence do the stats on changing attitudes on biblical literalism and inerrancy have to do with creationism, since creationism is not dependent on either? (evident from the stats, since 1/3 take the bible totally literally, but almost half believe God created us within the last 10k years, leaving roughly 20% of americans who are non-literalist creationists?) Ungtss 04:10, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
For some background on the issue, I quote the Wisconsin-Madison, Dr. Ron Numbers on the history of the term "creationism":
Antievolutionists and Creationists
When the Origin of Species went on sale late in 1859, the term "creationist" commonly designated a person who believed in the special origination of a soul for each human fetus, as opposed to a traducianist, who believed that the souls of children were inherited from their parents. Although Darwin (in private) and his allies occasionally referred to their opponents as "creationists," for about seventy-five years after the publication of his book such adversaries were more typically called "advocates of creation" or, increasingly, "anti-evolutionists." This custom prevailed well into the twentieth century, in large part because antievolutionists remained united far more by their hostility to evolution than by any common commitment to a particular view of creation.
As late as the 1920s antievolutionists chose to dedicate their organizations to "Christian Fundamentals," "Anti-Evolution," and "Anti-False Science," not to creationism. It was not until 1929 that one of George McCready Price’s former students, the Seventh-day Adventist biologist Harold W. Clark, explicitly packaged Price’s new catastrophism as "creationism." In a brief self-published book titled Back to Creationism Clark urged readers to quit simply opposing evolution and to adopt the new "science of creationism," by which he meant Price’s flood geology. For decades to come various Christian groups, from flood geologists to theistic evolutionists, squabbled over which camp most deserved to use the creationist label. However, by the 1980s the flood geologists/scientific creationists had clearly co-opted the term for their distinctive interpretation of earth history.
The Creationist Revival after 1961
For a century after the publication of Charles Darwin’s Origin of Species (1859) antievolutionists were united almost solely by their antipathy to evolution, not by agreement on the mode of creation. Among Christian Fundamentalists in the twentieth century, three interpretations of Genesis 1 vied for acceptance: (1) the gap theory, which held that the first chapter of Genesis described two creations, the first "in the beginning," at some unspecified time in the distant past, the second about 6,000 years ago, when God created Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden; (2) the day-age theory, which equated the "days" of Genesis 1 with vast geological ages; and (3) the theory of flood geology, advocated by George McCready Price, which allowed for no life on earth before the Edenic creation and which assigned most of the fossil-bearing rocks to the catastrophic work of Noah’s flood. Until the early 1960s the vast majority of American Fundamentalists who left any record of their views on Genesis embraced either the gap or day-age schemes. Support for flood geology was limited largely to the small Seventh-day Adventist church, of which Price was a member.
This division of loyalties began to change dramatically with the publication in 1961 of The Genesis Flood by John C. Whitcomb, Jr., and Henry M. Morris, and the formation two years later of the Creation Research Society (CRS). Whitcomb, an Old Testament scholar, and Morris, a civil engineer, collaborated on an up-to-date presentation of Price’s flood geology that attracted considerable attention in conservative Christian circles. Their argument that science should accommodate revelation rather than vice versa resonated with the sentiments of many concerned Christians, who followed Whitcomb and Morris in jettisoning the gap and day-age theories as unholy compromises with naturalistic science.
In 1963 Morris joined nine other creationists with scientific training to form the CRS, an organization committed to the propagation of young-earth creationism. In the 1920s antievolutionists had lacked a single scientist with so much as a master’s degree in science. Their most impressive scientific authorities were a successful Canadian surgeon, a homeopathic medical-school dropout turned Presbyterian minister, a Seventh-day Adventist college instructor without an earned bachelor’s degree whose most advanced exposure to science had come in a course for elementary-school teachers, and a science professor at a small Fundamentalist college whose highest degree was a master’s awarded for a thesis on the teaching of penmanship in the public schools of two Midwestern towns. In contrast, five of the ten founding members of the CRS had earned Ph.D.’s in the biological sciences at reputable universities, and a sixth held a doctorate in biochemistry. Not all of the founders, however, possessed legitimate credentials. The only geologist in the group fraudulently claimed to have received a master’s degree.
About 1970, in an effort to sell their views as science and gain entry to public-school classrooms, these young-earth creationists renamed their beliefs creation science and dropped the label flood geology. Although two states, Arkansas and Louisiana, eventually passed laws mandating the teaching of creation science whenever evolution science was taught, the U. S. Supreme Court in 1987 ruled that such laws violated the First Amendment to the Constitution, requiring the separation of church and state. Despite this setback, the creation scientists flourished to the point that they virtually co-opted the term creationism for the formerly marginal ideas of Price. Public-opinion polls in the 1990s, though failing to distinguish young- from old-earth creationists, showed that forty-seven percent of Americans, including a quarter of college graduates, professed belief in the recent special creation of the first humans within the past 10,000 years. A hundred and forty years of evolution had left many Americans unconvinced.
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How's that? Ungtss 19:03, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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I think that discussion's just about thrashed the topic out—again! I'm sure we've been through this sort of discussion here before.
And by the way, the problem with first-past-the-post systems is that someone can win with less than 50% of the vote (or alternatively, this possibility tends to discourage multiple candidates so that there are only two candidates offering).
Philip J. Rayment 02:22, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The article currently says Among the scientific community, the age of the universe, the age of the Earth, and biological evolution are overwhelmingly considered to be the correct description of the origins of nature.
Two of the 3 don't make sense to me. Is this supposed to be the Big Bang, Giant impact theory, and biological evolution ? -- DavidCary 20:44, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The article currently says the option of teaching creationism in school has never been seriously considered in any Western European country.
This seems incorrect. I've been told that every school, in every European country, not only considered it, but exclusively taught creationism for centuries. It may be true that this option has never been considered in those contries for many years, since year ___N___. I expect N to be sometime after the book The Origin of Species (1859) was published, and before 2004. -- DavidCary 20:44, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The latest revision says "Creationism may be entirely based on theology (see creationist theology), entirely based on science (but often called pseudoscience by the vast majority of the scientific community who regard evolution as fact; see intelligent design), or on a mixture of both". I don't think this is adequate - most scientist (including this one) do not consider creationism pseudo-science because they consider evolution a fact (although most do), but because of the methods employed ("statements of faith", ignoring vast amounts of evidence, repeating refuted and easily refutable pseudo-facts, and so on). That it produces results in conflict with mainstream science is a symptom of its nature as pseudo science, not the reason for this designation. -- Stephan Schulz 23:03, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
where's the dispute? nobody's mentioned any pov complaints on the talkpage ... what's the problem, alai? Ungtss 22:02, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
i corrected the patently false statement that all roman catholics accept evolutionary creationism. it is "more than a hypothesis," but not an official position. Ungtss 15:16, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
the following was recently added to the page:
<<The level of interest in creationism in the United States is frequently referred to by Europeans who allege that American culture or education are inferior to that of Europe.>>
Why was the Giant impact theory included in the following sentence?
It is a very narrow theory that describes a vey particular event. I just don't see its relevance here.
Consider the following,
Whilst I can understand that "anti-creationist links" doesn't sound the best, "non-creationist links" sound to me like neutral sites (if such a thing is possible), whereas at least most of the links are to sites that are overtly anti-creationist. Is there a third way we can go that's better? If not, I'd prefer "anti-creationist links" as being more accurate. Philip J. Rayment 12:32, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The matter is not so much one of bias but description. Neither is really very descriptive. I propose the external link sections be entitled Creationist resources and Criticisms of creationism, or something of that ilk. -- FOo 17:28, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
How about pro/con? "Con-creationist" doesn't sound right, though, I guess.-- FeloniousMonk 19:41, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
What do people think of Creationist links (as now) and Sites opposed to creationism or Sites critical of creationism? Philip J. Rayment 01:59, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There, I hope all parties are happy. I did not check the context of the web pages but asumed material was organised in a pro-anti manner. -- Cool Cat My Talk 10:45, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Argh:
"is it really appropriate to state as fact what is in reality one opinion among two?" No, it wouldnt be - if we were dealing with 'one opinion among two'. We are not however, we are dealing with one theory based on the systematic accumulation of overwhelming evidence, and a belief based on something written by people ignorant of modern science over 2000 years ago. Aaarrrggh 20:34, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Aaarrrggh: You reverted my edit which said:
This replaced the wording which you placed in the article just before my edit of:
These both say the same thing, but from radically different perspectives. It would have been proper search for a NPOV way of saying the same thing rather than resorting to a juvenile, ad hominem attack, as you did.
Besides, your edits would be more appropriate for an article on "Creation Science" rather than about the subject of Creationism. Creationism is a view of the world, that should have a link to the "Creation Science" article. Creation Science is the proper place to discuss the controversy between it and the Macro Evolution theory. Val42 18:52, Feb 25, 2005 (UTC)
And as I stated above, it is not in the interests of neutrality to present this debate as being two sides of equal merit; not when one is based on evidence and the other on fancy. Aaarrrggh 20:34, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
the new section is great -- but it belongs on creation science, not here! this page doesn't need to have ANYTHING to do with science -- it's just the belief, in the raw. can we please move this section where it belongs? Ungtss 22:34, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Yet another Edit conflict; one of us is going to have to draw breath once in a while. Does this (and my new material) count as an adequate response? I think that the criticisms of creationsim are going to be in large part from the standpoint of the person who thinks that science offers us a better chance of finding the truth than accepting the claims of a book, so the stuff about science as a way of truth-discovery is relevant here, i think. I'd originally written:
I think you both have a point here; discussion of creation science isn't really to the point, but if the term is going to be referred to at all, some glossing of it is reasonable, lest this be read as endorsing a scientific basis for creation. A broader difficulty is that the scope of the article is notionally any belief in creator, of any sort (witness it glomping up Creator god recently), which almost any religious person is in theory obliged to sign up to. But the connotations of the term 'Creationism', and much of the body of the article, are much narrower, which makes it tempting to wheel in discussion of creation science. Alai 23:33, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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(Another two Edit conflicts; third time lucky) This isn't a comment on how you did [this was a response to a remark by Ungtss, which disappeared in one of the Edit conflicts</nowiki>]</nowiki>, and we might end up going back to something of the sort — but I think that this needs to be discussed a bit further before simply removing the Criticisms section. Either the article is going to be a one-sided presentation of the Creationist position, or it's going to include a section explaining the positions of those who reject that position. But such rejections are going to include – indeed, to be dominated by – the sort of criticism that I give in the article. That is, whether or not Creationism claims to be scientific, it's in conflict with what science says, and so the question must be asked: which should we accept? The answer of someone like Thomas Aquinas is clear; we should accept science, because it's based on reason; the Bible isn't therefore wrong, but it needs to be interpreted correctly. The view of the Creationist is to reject the scientific view.
I can (some time tomorrow or Sunday, because I have to get a moderately early night — I have an early start tomorrow) rewrite what I've got in order to lay more stress on this point than on the creation science point, but I think that – unless the article is to be hopelessly PoV – it needs something like this.
(OK, one last response: Rednblu is confusing naturalism vs non- or super-naturalism with rationalism vs non-rationalism. Ever since Kuhn, at least, it's been recognised that science is affected by non-rational (that is, extra-scientific) factors, but that has nothing to do with the question of naturalism. Soviet scientists weren't appealing to god, or spirits, or even the spooky forces of historical materialism. The problem with demanding citations for what I've been saying is that you'll find it in every book on the nature of science. A couple of examples: The Rationality of Science by Bill Newton-Smith, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas Kuhn, and The Philosophies of Science by Rom Harré.) Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:56, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This is to misunderstand the issue, but also to emphasise the need for the kind of section we're talking about.
As I said, I'll try to rework what I wrote in order to bring out the target more clearly, but something like it needs to be there. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:08, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
<<I'm trying to contribute to the article in order to improve it — to make it fuller and more balanced.>>
<<if religious beliefs conflict with science, then the religious beliefs should be reinterpreted or discarded. That is the explanation of why creationists are wrong.>>
<<What's odd about all this, of course, is that creationism is relatively new; it had been discarded by thinking Christians by the nineteenth century in favour of more sensible interpretations of the Bible, which didn't conflict with reason. Its current resurgence, in a particularly literalist form, can be traced to the early-twentieth century U.S., and there are all sorts of sociological and psychological explanations for that which the article ought to go into.>>
<<I'm not talking about creation science; that's largely just a cynical attempt to bypass U.S. constitutional bars on religion in schools, and it's difficult to believe that even its proponents believe any of the nonsense they spout. I'm talking about creationism itself — a view that is geographically and culturally limited even within the Christian religions.>>
As I said, I'll try to rework what I wrote in order to bring out the target more clearly, but something like it needs to be there. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:08, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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I've relocated the Criticisms of creationism to lower down on the page to allow the presentation of info likely more relevant to creationists themselves first. Feel free to change back if anyone objects.
I also added a sub-section to it addressing creationist claims to scientific mantle. It's important to address this in light of their claims, not least of which is made in the Defenses of Creationism section.-- FeloniousMonk 20:57, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
First, you seem to assume that the only part of science that opposes creationism is evolutionary biology; it isn't. The claim that the universe was created by a supernatural being is antithetical to science in general (and as a philosopher I'd also say that such a claim fails to be an explanation). Secondly, unless you're claiming that there are no objections to creationism (that the only objections are to so-called creation science), why do you object to having them aired in the article? (Oh, and thirdly, I suppose: why are you ignoring the argument that I offered above concerning the relevance of the arguments to creationism? Did they get lost in Rednblu's splutterings?) Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:44, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This whole Criticisms of Creationism section no more belongs on the Creationism page than the creationist counterpart of it would belong on the Evolution page. NPOV would require a paragraph or two to summarize the many wonderful details of science's criticisms of creationism that would be presented in all their splendor in the Creation-evolution controversy page. 8))
Hence, I move that the whole Criticisms of Creationism section be moved to the Creation-evolution controversy page with a short summary on the Creationism page with a link to the detail. --- Rednblu | Talk 22:32, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
alright, gentlemen, what is the framework for npov here?
Thoughts? Ungtss 22:42, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I'd think JS's reaction to some horribly POV additions on your part, rather than a scheme of his ex nihilo. What we should have a neutral summary of both POVs, not a battle to get in the last word. Alai 22:57, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Amid the controversy over "Creationist Science" vs. "Macro Evolution", a more relevant issue has been lost — that this page is Abrahamic-centered. That is, the page starts out general and gets more specifically oriented towards creationism as considered by the three Abrahamic-originating religions, then the page gets lost in the muck of the above debate. Other than the generalities, spoken of in the first two sections, there is nothing relevant to the creationism of other religions. I'm not talking just about the creation stories of the Norse, Greeks and Romans that we were taught in school, but those of other major religions of the world. How should we go about getting input from these other communities? Val42 03:26, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
... is pretty much self-defined, in its very own intro. Observe:
Grand; so far this must surely be the considerable majority of the world's population. I'm sure most, say, Italians'd agree with this (to pluck an arbitray example from nasty old secular Europe). They wouldn't necessarily have used the term 'creationist' to self-describe, but...
They do? Suddenly we've gone from almost all Italians, to about four of them.
So my point is simple: is this article defining creationists to be believers in a creator god, as implied by the majority of that paragraph, and by the recent merger of the article of that name? (Probably a very bad idea, in hindsight.) Or is it Abrahamic anti-Evolutionists? We'll never get a coherent article until we square this circle; we'll just (as at present) flip-flop between complaints about atheism and naturalism (which has really nothing to do with anything here) on the one hand, and what rotten science some specific sort of creationism is (of which the same may true, depending on said scope), and the hapless reader will be no wiser than had we just written "ALL YE WHO ENTER HERE, FLAMES WITHIN". Alai 04:42, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I've merged the two sections, omitting material only relevant to creationism as scientific (that might be transferred elsewhere, but I don't think that it belongs here). What's left is a set of criticisms, all found in the philosophical and scientific literature, either directly about creationism or about supernatutalist claims in general), which are relevant centrally to creationism as a theory about the origin (and nature) of the world, not to the claims that it's scientific. There's one aspect that really needs expansion (the point about the nature of explanation), but I need to think about that further, and check more sources, before I do anything. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 12:52, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Having changed this section, what now needs to be done is to remove all references in the rest of the article to claims that creationism is scientific, or has scientific validity. I assume that no-one can disagree with this, as the main complaint about the criticisms was that they focussed on creationism as science, and so belonged elsewhere.
Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:49, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Disregarding the the other biases in the article, I would have to say that quoting the PAW poll as greater than 50% support for teaching creationism is the same as quoting 99% support for teaching Christianity by defining 'teaching Christianity' as 'mentioning the Bible in class.' Historical and philisophical education is vastly different from scientific education.
First, the link to the wiki entry for Edwards v. Aguillard is right there (and I moved the quote there); second, this is in a section that was supposedly moved to a daughter page; it should be short.
I think we can reach a one or two sentence summary that we can agree upon. How about this:
Most recently, the Supreme Court has held in their ruling of Edwards_v._Aguillard that laws concerning theories of origins (even creationist ones) taught in public schools must have a secular purpose and scientific merit, using the test laid down in Lemon_v._Kurtzman.
- Fleacircus 20:56, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I removed:
The first phrase is redundant, the reference to "evangelical fundamentalists" is (what's the term?) perjorative?, it is no more associated with Fred Nile than many other people, I question whether it has any less social prominence than in the U.S.A, and from what I can gather, it hasn't achieved any legislative prominence in the U.S.A. anyway, with most legislative attempts being rejected. Philip J. Rayment 02:36, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In the edit of 20:20, 24 Nov 2004, something went wrong. Can somebody figure it out and fix it? --- Rednblu | Talk 06:56, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think it's ok now; I changed the Links section from <h4> to ====. Now the sections seem to work. --- Ben Standeven 02:41, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
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I formatted the Creationism page in the standard Main Article summary and layout that is used, for example, in the Evolution and Human pages as has been discussed on this TalkPage for over a year. Please refer to the Creationism archives and subsequent discussions if you have any questions. :)) --- Rednblu | Talk 21:40, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Summaries of other articles shouldnt be here because it's redundant and can cause inconsistency when one of the pages covering the same subject changes while the other remains unchanged. Grice 10:57, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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Summaries of "Main articles" are the Wikipedia standard, as you can see in the Evolution and Human pages, just for two examples. Can you give me a Wikipedia example of a page where "Summaries of 'Main articles'" was considered by the Wikipedia community to be "redundant and causing inconsistency"? --- Rednblu | Talk 15:16, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've corrected sentence introducing Phillip E. Johnson to reflect that Phillip Johnson's claims are not general, but highly particular.-- FeloniousMonk 06:23, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Additionally, it would be in the article's interest to add some context around the Phillip E. Johnson bit with some of the opposing viewpoints for balance.-- FeloniousMonk 06:26, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It seems to me that this page is really poor. There isn't a well-defined use of the term "creationist". The opening paragraph seems to indicate that a creationist is someone who believes in Genesis creation. However, later on there are references to a 1997 Gallup poll that was completely neutral to whether the respondent was a believer in a Judeo-Christian formulation or some other formulation of theism. Furthermore, there are "creationists" who believe such things as the Earth and even the universe was "created" by aliens, for example. Is this a form of creationism? If not, then we should really define what exactly we are talking about. 67.172.158.8 17:56, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
you can't place yec as a straw-man in opposition to science -- that's one pov. the yec folks believe that science SUPPORTS a young earth. to set YEC in "opposition" to science in the first paragraph is pov ... and an especially damaging pov on a page like this. as to the "scientific consensus," it was Karl Popper who said, "I don't believe that success proves anything." Ungtss 00:49, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
In the UK certainly most people use the term YEC to describe those that assert that the scientific method would back up their beliefs. I'm sure there are those that take the belief without believing in the scientific method but are they common enough to warrant discussion? I reverted to Ungtss' version. Barnaby dawson 16:05, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There are definitely people who are YECs that use evidence other than that from science to back up their assertions. As such, the statement is too narrow to be correct. 67.172.158.8 18:00, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There seems to be some clamoring for a removal of the statement that most YECs are fundamentalists. This is surprising, because it is definitely one of the primary perspectives of every YEC I've ever met. 67.172.158.8 16:28, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
<<Do you actually evaluate the claims of geology, astronomy, chemistry, nuclear physics, etc. and find them wanting?>>
<<What references do you use to support your claims?>>
I have read Ungtss' comments and remain unimpressed. Here is the Wikipedia definition for YEC:
There is no account of any claim to science in the first paragraph. I will not take the time to debunk the incorrect science stated by user Ungtss, since he can edit any of the statements in the Wikipedia library if he were really to believe this (for example, he could edit the article on the conservation of angular momentum if he believes that there is no way to get rotation in astrophysical gas clouds), but I have edited the definition to my satisfaction. YEC relies either on a faith-based rejection of modern science (as pseudoscience or as naturalism or as secularism) but is not on the whole necessarily scientific.
As to the claim that there are no references to this, the reasonable thing to do is refer to self-described Young Earth Creationists. Polling makes no sense because the term is self-descriptive. I can refer to any number of websites that reject prevailing scientific notions of astronomy, geology, biology, physics, etc. in favor of Young Earth Creationism. As such, they necessarily reject scientific statements. I can also refer to most Young Earth Creationist literature as accepting a literal interpretation of Genesis. Therefore, I have justified my edits and will continue to maintain the position. 67.172.158.8 02:18, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
<<I have edited the definition to my satisfaction.>>
<<As to the claim that there are no references to this, the reasonable thing to do is refer to self-described Young Earth Creationists.>>
<<Young Earth creationism is the belief that the Earth and life on Earth were created by a direct action of God a relatively short time ago. The belief is held by the Christians, Jews, and Muslims who believe that the ancient Hebrew text of Genesis is a historical account.>>
<<This is beside the point. First, the unsubstantiated atheistic claim is merely an ad hominem for you to state, but the last sentence in the Age of the Earth article states it all. Just look into how the work was done and evaluated. It's very meticulous and you've obviously not read it.>>
Here is a link: [62] ~
(UTC)
From your site:
From my site:
The article is untractable and doesn't deal with the simple explanations provided. It is also the reason I reverted. Joshuaschroeder 23:16, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
i understand that. but you've only quoted the intro to my article, without even considering the length of it on isochron dating.
<<Potassium-argon dating, for example, assumes that minerals form with no argon in them. Since argon is an inert gas, it will usually be excluded from forming crystals.>>
perhaps if you'd read the article more thoroughly, you would have noticed this:
um ... would you care to justify the revert of an edit which added factual information without deleting anything? Ungtss 22:43, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
josh, what relevence do the stats on changing attitudes on biblical literalism and inerrancy have to do with creationism, since creationism is not dependent on either? (evident from the stats, since 1/3 take the bible totally literally, but almost half believe God created us within the last 10k years, leaving roughly 20% of americans who are non-literalist creationists?) Ungtss 04:10, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
For some background on the issue, I quote the Wisconsin-Madison, Dr. Ron Numbers on the history of the term "creationism":
Antievolutionists and Creationists
When the Origin of Species went on sale late in 1859, the term "creationist" commonly designated a person who believed in the special origination of a soul for each human fetus, as opposed to a traducianist, who believed that the souls of children were inherited from their parents. Although Darwin (in private) and his allies occasionally referred to their opponents as "creationists," for about seventy-five years after the publication of his book such adversaries were more typically called "advocates of creation" or, increasingly, "anti-evolutionists." This custom prevailed well into the twentieth century, in large part because antievolutionists remained united far more by their hostility to evolution than by any common commitment to a particular view of creation.
As late as the 1920s antievolutionists chose to dedicate their organizations to "Christian Fundamentals," "Anti-Evolution," and "Anti-False Science," not to creationism. It was not until 1929 that one of George McCready Price’s former students, the Seventh-day Adventist biologist Harold W. Clark, explicitly packaged Price’s new catastrophism as "creationism." In a brief self-published book titled Back to Creationism Clark urged readers to quit simply opposing evolution and to adopt the new "science of creationism," by which he meant Price’s flood geology. For decades to come various Christian groups, from flood geologists to theistic evolutionists, squabbled over which camp most deserved to use the creationist label. However, by the 1980s the flood geologists/scientific creationists had clearly co-opted the term for their distinctive interpretation of earth history.
The Creationist Revival after 1961
For a century after the publication of Charles Darwin’s Origin of Species (1859) antievolutionists were united almost solely by their antipathy to evolution, not by agreement on the mode of creation. Among Christian Fundamentalists in the twentieth century, three interpretations of Genesis 1 vied for acceptance: (1) the gap theory, which held that the first chapter of Genesis described two creations, the first "in the beginning," at some unspecified time in the distant past, the second about 6,000 years ago, when God created Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden; (2) the day-age theory, which equated the "days" of Genesis 1 with vast geological ages; and (3) the theory of flood geology, advocated by George McCready Price, which allowed for no life on earth before the Edenic creation and which assigned most of the fossil-bearing rocks to the catastrophic work of Noah’s flood. Until the early 1960s the vast majority of American Fundamentalists who left any record of their views on Genesis embraced either the gap or day-age schemes. Support for flood geology was limited largely to the small Seventh-day Adventist church, of which Price was a member.
This division of loyalties began to change dramatically with the publication in 1961 of The Genesis Flood by John C. Whitcomb, Jr., and Henry M. Morris, and the formation two years later of the Creation Research Society (CRS). Whitcomb, an Old Testament scholar, and Morris, a civil engineer, collaborated on an up-to-date presentation of Price’s flood geology that attracted considerable attention in conservative Christian circles. Their argument that science should accommodate revelation rather than vice versa resonated with the sentiments of many concerned Christians, who followed Whitcomb and Morris in jettisoning the gap and day-age theories as unholy compromises with naturalistic science.
In 1963 Morris joined nine other creationists with scientific training to form the CRS, an organization committed to the propagation of young-earth creationism. In the 1920s antievolutionists had lacked a single scientist with so much as a master’s degree in science. Their most impressive scientific authorities were a successful Canadian surgeon, a homeopathic medical-school dropout turned Presbyterian minister, a Seventh-day Adventist college instructor without an earned bachelor’s degree whose most advanced exposure to science had come in a course for elementary-school teachers, and a science professor at a small Fundamentalist college whose highest degree was a master’s awarded for a thesis on the teaching of penmanship in the public schools of two Midwestern towns. In contrast, five of the ten founding members of the CRS had earned Ph.D.’s in the biological sciences at reputable universities, and a sixth held a doctorate in biochemistry. Not all of the founders, however, possessed legitimate credentials. The only geologist in the group fraudulently claimed to have received a master’s degree.
About 1970, in an effort to sell their views as science and gain entry to public-school classrooms, these young-earth creationists renamed their beliefs creation science and dropped the label flood geology. Although two states, Arkansas and Louisiana, eventually passed laws mandating the teaching of creation science whenever evolution science was taught, the U. S. Supreme Court in 1987 ruled that such laws violated the First Amendment to the Constitution, requiring the separation of church and state. Despite this setback, the creation scientists flourished to the point that they virtually co-opted the term creationism for the formerly marginal ideas of Price. Public-opinion polls in the 1990s, though failing to distinguish young- from old-earth creationists, showed that forty-seven percent of Americans, including a quarter of college graduates, professed belief in the recent special creation of the first humans within the past 10,000 years. A hundred and forty years of evolution had left many Americans unconvinced.
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How's that? Ungtss 19:03, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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I think that discussion's just about thrashed the topic out—again! I'm sure we've been through this sort of discussion here before.
And by the way, the problem with first-past-the-post systems is that someone can win with less than 50% of the vote (or alternatively, this possibility tends to discourage multiple candidates so that there are only two candidates offering).
Philip J. Rayment 02:22, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The article currently says Among the scientific community, the age of the universe, the age of the Earth, and biological evolution are overwhelmingly considered to be the correct description of the origins of nature.
Two of the 3 don't make sense to me. Is this supposed to be the Big Bang, Giant impact theory, and biological evolution ? -- DavidCary 20:44, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The article currently says the option of teaching creationism in school has never been seriously considered in any Western European country.
This seems incorrect. I've been told that every school, in every European country, not only considered it, but exclusively taught creationism for centuries. It may be true that this option has never been considered in those contries for many years, since year ___N___. I expect N to be sometime after the book The Origin of Species (1859) was published, and before 2004. -- DavidCary 20:44, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The latest revision says "Creationism may be entirely based on theology (see creationist theology), entirely based on science (but often called pseudoscience by the vast majority of the scientific community who regard evolution as fact; see intelligent design), or on a mixture of both". I don't think this is adequate - most scientist (including this one) do not consider creationism pseudo-science because they consider evolution a fact (although most do), but because of the methods employed ("statements of faith", ignoring vast amounts of evidence, repeating refuted and easily refutable pseudo-facts, and so on). That it produces results in conflict with mainstream science is a symptom of its nature as pseudo science, not the reason for this designation. -- Stephan Schulz 23:03, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
where's the dispute? nobody's mentioned any pov complaints on the talkpage ... what's the problem, alai? Ungtss 22:02, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
i corrected the patently false statement that all roman catholics accept evolutionary creationism. it is "more than a hypothesis," but not an official position. Ungtss 15:16, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
the following was recently added to the page:
<<The level of interest in creationism in the United States is frequently referred to by Europeans who allege that American culture or education are inferior to that of Europe.>>
Why was the Giant impact theory included in the following sentence?
It is a very narrow theory that describes a vey particular event. I just don't see its relevance here.
Consider the following,
Gentlemen, we had it. we had an npov description of creationism. we had it. there were no edit wars. there was no discussion. then our find friend ARGH came in with his ideology, and here we are again. the page is PANTS! what is the framework for this page? is the framework to deconstruct it or describe it? thoughts? Ungtss 15:17, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
But is creationism a "view, rather than an anti-view"? In the modern sense of the word, I usually see creationism used to refer to a religion-based critique of evolutionary science. Science proposes and refines detailed accounts of how species developed. Creationists, by and large, do not offer a detailed account of the process they believe occurred. Indeed, they deny that such an account is possible -- we cannot know the mind of God. Rather, creationists reject and cast doubt upon the scientific accounts.
There does not appear to be a theory (in the sense of a complex, working body of knowledge) of creationism. Theologically, after all, such a theory would seem to be untenable; it would purport to offer an explanation of the purposes and ways of God, which are not for humans to know. Rather, creationists have proposed a series of what they see as weaknesses or failings of evolutionary theory: early on, that it was in contradiction with received religious belief, and associated with atheism; later, criticisms of specific accounts offered by biology, such as the possibility of beneficial mutation and the descent of one species from another.
I do not intend this view of creationism as a critique of evolution to be derogatory of creationism. To make an analogy, creationism is to biological science what atheism is to (theistic) religion. Atheism does not attempt to be a religion, or to offer alternatives to religious belief and practice. Rather, it offers criticisms of religion and proposes reasons not to believe and practice religion. Likewise, creationism (when propounded honestly) does not pretend to fill the role of evolutionary science, but rather proposes reasons not to believe in it. Just as atheism is not a religion but rather an opposition to religion, so is creationism likewise an "anti-view" of sorts. -- FOo 18:28, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Can't we simply do the following: remove all references to creation science from the introduction. Later simply state there's a "disputed basis" or something to that effect in creation science; and move all boosterism or criticism of creationism as science to that article? The reference in the intro is flawed in any case, as it invites us to believe that there's a significant body of people who are completely convinced of creationism by creation science, and have no religious conviction whatsoever. Alai 18:24, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
First of all, let's start with this sentence: Creationists hold beliefs that may be based on creationist theology, creation science, or a combination of the two. As I said, I think this is misleading, as it gives the impression we're (to some notable degree) describing people who believe in creationism from creation science exclusively. At the least, if we have to say something like this, let's not say it in the article lead, where it has an inappropriate definitional character. Alai 19:10, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Just thought I would add this section to the talk page now rather than to start a frantic edit war, as many people seem to be chopping and changing right at this very moment. My position on this issue is as I stated above; I agree with the sentiment that creationism does indeed reject mainstream scientific methodology and discoveries, but that in an enyclopedia introduction it may be better to state this without making it part of the definition. I will await responses from other people before making changes to this. Aaarrrggh 18:42, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I removed the following paranthetical statement
The hypothesis that chimps and gorillas are the closing living relatives to humans could have been falsified. It could be have been falsified by fossil evidence indicating continuity between humans and some other living creature, and it could have been falsified by DNA evidence such as the sequence of ribosomal RNA.
Perhaps this was just poorly written, and the author meant to indicate that the idea of common ancestry in general is unfalsifiable. I'd bet that it is falsifiable, but I don't have the evidence at hand right now. If this is truly what the author meant, I think that it would be better to write ("such as the common ancestry of all life").
AdamRetchless 21:35, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Reverted to older edit, recent changes not warranted, user must explain why he thinks they are.
Well, that wasn't exactly the most productive contribution to discussion either, was it? Why are said changes 'unwarranted', and why do you assume Mel is under some greater obligation to explain his edits than you are? Frankly, anything that can be done to help clean up the point-for-point mess in that section can't be all bad... Alai 05:42, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure that anything significant has been omitted, but I'll look again. The point about consistency is made in the criticisms; repeating it here is surely unnecessary. I didn't really think that the (underdescribed) moon-dust example or the (dubiously relevant) Clarke quotation helped; does anyone else have thoughts on this? I do agree on the monotonous “mainstream proponents” — some of my edits got rid of a few examples, and I hope to get rid of more. The two sections need streamlining, not further bloating, though, so I don't want to add more text if at all possible. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:57, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This Criticisms of Creationism section is atrocious! When I was in high school and looking for good arguments to take down Reverend Miller, I would have laughed even harder than I laugh at this unsubstantiated, undocumented, and uncited personal research now. These "criticisms" are not criticisms but rather nonsense that does not even score points.
You are kidding! You are joking! Creationism in the United States has mutated into the most dangerous form of virulent politics you can imagine. And that political mutation is spreading quickly around the world. Proof is no longer needed. Faith is not even needed. All the mutated creationism needs is Fox News to do all the hard selling--and the voters buy it.
Well now! What is this! Some wonderful personal meditation? Baring your souls are ye? Bertrand Russell would roll his eyes at his personal research. This has nothing to do with "Creationism." And creationism is not about "truth." Go read your Bible; it is not about "truth." What are all of these personal research meditations doing on this page? It is outrageous.
Novelists? Is "creationism" about novelists? This is ridiculous. This encyclopedia is supposed to summarize the wisdom of the ages, and you dare to write this personal research here about novelists? Why not paraphrase the arguments of Richard Dawkins or Robert Ingersoll? Those two guys actually win games against "creationism." Do you need some links to find them? This Criticisms of Creationism section of personal research does not even score points about anything--let alone against "creationism."
God Almighty! What scientist are you talking about? What Nobel Prize winner ever admitted "to going wrong, to fumbling towards the truth"? Nope. Would Isaac Newton admit that special relativity proved him wrong? Nope. Newton produced formulas only for the speeds that he observed. Would Charles Darwin admit that Watson and Crick proved him wrong? Nope. Darwin produced theories only on what he had observed so far. The Criticisms of Creationism section makes no logical sense. Even if scientists somewhere admitted to going wrong that would not mark anything or anyone as being "genuine discoverers" of anything. The Criticisms of Creationism section is nonsense personal research and should be deleted. If you want a short paragraph of criticisms of creationism, I suggest you be encyclopedic and report what actual scholars who knew what they were talking about actually said. Enough of this undocumented, uncited, and illogical personal research. --- Rednblu | Talk 21:05, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Right. I am telling you as clearly as I can that what you have written in the "Criticisms" section fails outside your office. It is not about Creationism. It does not make sense. And you will find no scholar of any discipline who agrees that any one of your five points above has anything to do with "Creationism." While those five points might be interesting if you published an exposition of those five points in The British Journal for the Philosophy of Science, the summaries of those five points you have made here and on the Creationism page do not pass minimal Wikipedia logic and relevancy standards. I'm sorry to tell you the truth. --- Rednblu | Talk 23:01, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The subject of this page is Creationism; that's what it's about; Creationism is its primary focus. How else can I put it? The nature of the article is consistent with this. It is not about the debate between creationism and anything, though that will naturally feature in it, because it's a pertinent fact about creationism. The insistence on describing it otherwise is either PoV or simply perplexing. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 08:44, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Firstly, I think that putting the link to Creation belief at the bottom of the page would be inadequate. I think that it works better at the the top because of what I said above; if someone is looking for that page, then a disambiguation-like link would serve them best.
Secondly, there have been various attempts to define this page before. If this page is about creation belief, then it should be merged with that page. If this page is about the debate between those who believe in a theistic creationism (whether by theistic evolution or not) or non-theistic (naturalistic) creation, then it should be merged with that page. When I first came here, it was the former. Now it is the later. The people who are editing this page seem more interested in pushing one part of the argument or the other than in being helpful.
If this page is one of the above (clearly distingushed) purposes I put forward above, please merge the information in to the appropriate pages. If this page does not fit what I've defined above, please clearly say what it is and why it doesn't belong in either of the above categories. Right now, I'm being frustrated and trying to be helpful at the same time. I'd ask that in your own frustration, try to be helpful at the same time. Val42 04:02, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)
--- Rednblu | Talk 04:47, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
--- Val42 05:25, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)
8)) If you remove "myth" from the Creation beliefs sentence, then you probably should take out "scientific" from the first sentence. Maybe something like the following.
What do you think? --- Rednblu | Talk 07:26, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I move that we put the following initial disambiguation paragraph at the top of the Creationism page.
What does everybody think? --- Rednblu | Talk 03:50, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Support - See discussion just before this section. Val42 03:57, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)
These two terms do not seem to actually refer to different positions. The difference seems solely to be that some people do not feel comfortable calling that position "creationism", and others do not feel comfortable calling it "evolution". That is not a good guideline for which term is more descriptive.
What difference is there between this view and that of biological science? In terms of scientific methodology and description of the material world, there can be none -- specifically because E.C./T.E. accepts the scientific results of evolutionary biology. Rather, E.C./T.E. represents a philosophical (or perhaps, theological) position on the meaning of the scientific results. It sees evolution as evidence for the philosophical position of theism. This is in contrast with those who see evolution as evidence against theism.
E.C./T.E. is not "creationism" in the sense of any of the other beliefs we herein describe as "creationism", specifically because it does not represent a denial or rejection of evolution. All the other things we call "creationism" are rejections of evolutionary science. They claim that evolution did not happen. Because E.C./T.E. does not take this position, it strikes me as rather confusing to class it as a "creationism" at all.
The name theistic evolution is less ambiguous and avoids the confusion of having something called "creationism" that is not anti-evolution. It also happens to be (from the crude metric of a Google search) the rather more common term.
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Pollinator"
Concerning the edit ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Creationism&diff=10946981&oldid=10946496) that I made to the Creationism article, I removed the statement that "those who, under the guise of science, make the religious assumption/statement that there is no God" not because I disagree with that opinion, but because it is an opinion. If your intent was to present this as an opinion of a certain group, I think you should make your intent more clear in the article. For example, you could write "Evolutionary creationism has no dispute with the scientific theory of evolution either, but disputes (materialistic) evolutionists (who some evolutionary creationists believe act under the guise of science, and that the statement that there is no God is a religious one)." Since your reversion of my edit, user:Fubar Obfusco has edited ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Creationism&diff=0&oldid=10954413) the paragraph in question to fix this problem quite nicely, I think. --NoPetrol 22:52, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I don't know. I am asking what the rules are. There are several possibilities.
There are other alternatives between those two extremes. So under what rules are we operating here, I ask? --- Rednblu | Talk 23:56, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Joshuaschroeder 00:30, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have rewritten some of the section on the criticism of creationism. More specifically, I have removed the part on Rene Descartes (because I do not see it as being particularly relevance) and rephrased some of the criticism. Please comment on the latest edit, thank you. Ethereal 09:58, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)
I haven't had much time to read through the entire article at one sitting, but looking at the section on Defences of Creationism, I should say that I find that certain crucial arguments routinely employed by creationists are lacking. One of the missing arguments I feel should be included would be that creationism is just as scientific as evolutionary theory. Indeed the section opens with an attack on science (not specifically evolutionary science), and questions the nature of science itself. Clearly proponents of creationism wanting their theories to be taught in the classrooms alongside evolution all would argue vociferously that creationism is scientific too. Furthermore, within the section, there is no mention of intelligent design (ID) theory (quite a prominent creationist movement) as well. There is only passing mention of arguments for ID theory such as irreducible complexity, creationist biology, specified complexity and much of the section focuses on a point-by-point argument and rebuttal format.
Moreover, there are some rather alien arguments present within the section such as creationists charging that "naturalistic explanations are fundamentally inadequate" because "because the models require violations of the laws of nature at the most fundamental level, while creationism allows for an explanation that, although not observable, at least allows for consistency with the laws of nature". The next sentence goes on to say that scientists counter there is no evidence there was any violation of the laws of physics. Huh? What does this mean? Did someone mix up creationist and evolutionist arguments? I have personally never come across such arguments while reading creationist books. The last sentence is also worded strangely (what exactly does it mean?):
Apart from all this, there is also the endless repetition of "mainstream proponents" just about everywhere in the section, and no mention of any specific criticism of evolutionary arguments such as the fossil record, problems with specific accounts of abiogenesis, geological arguments etc. If anyone thinks that such should be included in the article on evolution rather than here, no, they're not there. In fact the paucity of "mainstream creationist" arguments here surprises me. I actually learned more about creationist arguments from talkorigins.org (pro-evolution website) than here.
Finally, before the evolutionists start spewing vile ad-hominem epithets against me, please note that I am an evolutionist and am firmly against all kinds of creationist crap. Nevertheless, I do not believe it is appropriate for evolutionists to present a strawman out of creationism. Knock them down as they are! There's no need to stoop so low. I can attempt a rewrite of this section over the next few days (if I have time), but I'm afraid I know more about anti-creationist arguments than pro-creationist ones so I am of limited help here. Ethereal 11:09, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)
I'm beginning to think of just leaving all these polarised articles to the squabbling sides; why is it that it's impossible to make a simple comment without its being taken as a statement of some definite point of view to be aggressively defended against? I was simply explaining the genesis of the section to which you were referring, the reasons for its present state, and the arguments offered at the time. In fact, if you'd read the previous discussions, you'd have seen that I don't think that it's OK as it stands. (I don't however, think that defences of creationism as having scientific status belong here; they're surely relevant to creation science, not to creationism.)
As for ad hominem; an ad hominem argument is one that tries to attack a belief held by a certain person by showing that it contradicts some other belief held by that person — in other words, it doesn't really show that the belief is false, only (at best) that a certain person shouldn't hold it. The term is sometimes used more loosely to refer to the attempt to attack a belief merely by attacking the character of a person who holds it. On Wikipedia and elsewhere it's too often used simply refer to any personal attack or even minor incivility. I'd just prefer to see it used properly. As I said, a minor point, but important if one values clarity. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 15:16, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Over the past few years the introduction to this article had been dangerously overwritten! It was dense, and hard for a newcomer to the subject to understand. Detailed discussions are best done within the heart of the article, not in the vert first paragraph. In line with the editing practice on hundreds of other Wikipedia articles, I made two edits. (A) I simplified the intro, without trying to change any of the ideas. (B) I placed the most common definition first, and the less common definition of the term second. RK 12:15, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)
The section on geocentric creationism under types of creationism mentions the Creation Science Association for Mid-America as an example. I went to their website, and while they seem to strongly beleive in creationism a la Genesis, I could find no mention them believing in geocentric, perfectly spherical world. Now, I'm not familiar with their organization, so I suppose it is possible that they do believe in such. But it would be nice to be able to find evidence of that if we want to keep it in the article. DaveTheRed 01:46, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
We've got enough to contend with here; could we refrain from getting into arguments about whether the article should be in U.S. or U.K. English? I read through the 'Defences' section, and it seems to be in U.K. English, so that that spelling of the title is appropriate. If there's good reason to change the whole thing, fine — but let's get the content sorted out first. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 09:12, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've just removed the following (added by 138.26.60.37:
If it were to stay it would obviously need putting into correct English, but does it belong here at all? Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 21:52, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
(For a continuation of this conversation, see
/Talk.)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
I've tried to adhere to the Wiki nature in this morning's edit of Creationism. I accept that the dominant view is anti-Creationist and content myself merely with labeling the critique as such. I have restored much of the original points (as well as memory serves) and pointed out that objections to Creationism are mainly against Sudden Creationism. The argument against ID seems (here, at least) to be only that it's a religious tenet rather than a scientific hypothesis.
My aim is to summarize and highlight the various arguments, rather than to put forth my own view as right. This is my best effort at achieving NPOV, and I'm sure that any unconscious bias which has slipped through will be boldly corrected by others. -- User:Ed Poor
What's the ? It is not mainstream Christian theology; I'm sure that the Catholic and the majority of Presbyterian denominations, for example, do not accept Creationism. Acceptance of Creationism is highly related to biblical literalism; many conservative (as opposed to fundamentalist) Christians do not believe in biblical literalism. GregLindahl
I think you're confusing Christian theology with theology in general, and U.S. Christian theology with general Christian theology. Most other world theologies accept evolution, and most Christian theologies outside the U.S. do, as well. -- User:Dmerrill
If you want the Creationism page to be an argument that Creationism in all its forms is wrong or unscientific, why not say so and be done with it? Otherwise, let's make an Evolution Debate page.
I think when presenting a theory, we should explain why its adherents believe it.
Also, I think there's an attempt to identify Sudden Creationism with Creationism. It's not the clear majority view, according to the only survey I ever heard of. Surely the omission of Intelligent Design is not a deliberate attempt to deceive.
Come on, gentlemen. Where's that NPOV you're always talking about?
The number of people who believe something has not historically had much correlation with whether that thing was true.
Even something so easily falsifiable as Aristotle's theory of motion was once believed by the vast majority of authorities. The trouble is, no one before Galileo ever bothered to check it.
(It turned out that sufficiently dense bodies fall with a speed that is proportional to how long they've been falling -- not how heavy they are. So a five-pound cannonball and a ten-pound cannonball hit the ground at the same time, while other objects such as a feather reach will have already reached their terminal velocities.)
Sorry, I meant no disrepect to Aristotle. No doubt the intellectuals in the Roman Catholic Church misunderstood him. It was really the medieval interpretation of Aristotle's views that I meant. I should have mentioned Galileo's foray into church politics -- how a committee not under the pope's direct control hassled Galileo for reporting some of his astronomical discoveries. I'm no longer sure what any of this has to do with creationism. We need a topic called the quest for truth or something like that. -- User:Ed Poor
The names of the theories aren't what are regarded as meaningless, are they? Perhaps crucial elements of the theories are regarded as meaningless. (E.g., perhaps no good sense can be given to the notion of creation ex nihilo.) In any case, probably the more important thing to mention is that the theories, insofar as they do seem to be meaningful at all, seem to be unsupported and unverifiable. (I can maintain that the theories are unverifiable but, disagreeing with verificationism, believe them to be more-or-less meaningful--just false. Far from all scientists, theologians, and philosophers of science are verificationists.)
How about: "A very large ['vast' pours salt in the wound] majority of practising scientists, theologians and philosophers of science believe scientific creationism and intelligent design theory [identifying these as 'neologisms' in this context is to dismiss them]--terms many of them cannot use without shuddering--to be untenable, either because they are scientifically unsupportable and unverifiable, or because they are outright nonsense." -- User:LMS
In reference to the following:
One can carry the "lack of bias" mantra too far. If Wikipedia didn't officially endorse evolutionary science, it would be derelict in its duty to educate. Its only obligation to non-bias is to accurately report that some people choose not to believe in evolution. It should also not call those people idiots, or otherwise make derogatory comments about them (the word "nonsense" is probably a bit strong, though I happen to believe that, and I like the rest of LMS's phrasing). But it most definitely should report accurately that evolution, as endorsed with near unanimity among educated biologists, accurate describes the biological world, and that creationism does not. The article on Numerology is a good example: it clearly shows why it doesn't make sense, accurately identifies it as nonscientific, and merely reports that some people believe it. --LDC
Ed: The creationist view isn't science -- its religion. Religion has no place in a science class -- religion belongs in the religion class (if the school has one.)
-- User:Ed Poor
And besides, suppose the majority of students believed that the Earth was a flat disk, and said that believing that the earth was semi-spherical was against there religion. Should we teach flat-earthism as equally valid as round-earthism? Or suppose they thought the theory of relativity was a lie (something which, by the way, a lot of Nazis did) or that it was against their religion -- does it follow that we should teach the view that the theory of relativity, and not denigrate it as false? Suppose they thought that mechanistic physics (as in Gallileo, Descartes, Newton, etc.) was the work of the devil, and that the universe was really teleological (as in Aristotle) -- should we teach this also?
The fact is that creationism is rejected by almost all persons in the relevant scientific fields. Evolution, on the contrary, is accepted by almost all persons in these fields as scientific facts. Schools should teach the scientific facts according to expert opinion. If some students disapprove of science on religious grounds -- that is there problem. -- User:SJK
I don't think that what I asked carries the lack of bias policy too far. I very strongly disagree with your stated view that Wikipedia would be derelict in its duty to educate by not officially endorsing evolutionary science. In fact, I really wonder why you say this. Insofar as education includes the teaching of values, as it does and should (I think), I don't think that Wikipedia should engage in education; it should engage, rather, in reporting. Compare these two claims of yours:
The Numerology example doesn't illustrate what you want it to illustrate. The Numerology article does not state that Numerology is false. It states that it is nonscientific, which (I am supposing) is uncontroversial. In precisely the same way, I think we should not claim that evolution accurately describes the biological world and creationism does not. There are many good reasons, that we can review if you wish, that it is far preferable to say, instead: most scientists embrace evolutionary theory and reject creationism. This gets the idea across.
I don't think encyclopedias should be in the business of doing anything other than stating facts that sane, thinking people--among whom I would include, yes, creationists--can agree upon. If not on the subject matter itself, then they can usually agree on how competing views are characterized; or at least they can agree to allow each side to be permitted to characterize its own view sympathetically and to criticize other views. When an article becomes contentious, I think we should "go meta."
Why should there be any resistance to this? I'm very curious to know. Do you want to have a (another) debate about this on neutral point of view? -- User:Larry Sanger
P.S. I find your resistance to the word "nonsense" puzzling, and it indicates that, perhaps, you aren't entirely understanding the nonbias policy the way I understand it. I think it is all-important that the claim of nonsense is attributed to someone, rather than asserted to be the case by the author of the article itself. When it is attributed to someone, it immediately becomes uncontroversial and straightforwardly fact-stating (no matter how irritating to creationists). -- User:LMS
Sorry, but strong disagreement with the above. Neutrality is about stating facts rather than opinions, and the existence of evolution is as close to a fact as we are ever going to get. Certainly it is going to be taken as such on virtually every biology page written, because the phylogeny of organisms is important, and it would be an unbelievable headache to have to qualify it in every case to avoid offending a minority of people who are wrong. I say giving fair treatment to anything so unanimously decreed as false by workers in the field is silly and makes a mockery of the concept of objectivity. Or should we also make allowances for the flat earth hypothesis on our geography and astronomy pages?
As for creationists still being thinking and sane people, well - yes, they probably are. But that doesn't mean that the hypothesis is any less ridiculous. Aristotle believed in physics that can be disproved with a bowl and some water. And what will we do with the views of historical revisionists? -- JG
Perhaps--consider the possibility a moment--it is possible, in most articles that elaborate evolutionary theory and processes, simply to use a few words that imply that the claims in question are the views and the results of work by scientists. Then creationists will have nothing to do complain about.
You say "neutrality is about stating facts rather than opinions." Well, that's a quick-and-easy way to put it. It is more accurate to say that, where there is significant disagreement on a point, then neutrality demands that the disagreement be fairly characterized. Be careful to understand what this does and does not imply. It does imply that evolutionary science not be stated as fact and creation science as obviously false (rather, it implies that these views be described as being held by certain groups of people, and then the public can draw their own conclusions; you don't mind that they draw their own conclusions, do you?). It does not imply that, whenever you mention anything about evolutionary theory, you say something to the effect that creationists disagree. It does not imply that you outright assert, "Evolution is just a hypothesis." This too would be hugely controversial. You would be fully in your rights to say that most scientists fully believe evolution to be a very well-substantiated theory, as well-substantiated as many less controversial theories.
In general, and most importantly, this principle does not imply that our articles have to look like we think that evolutionary theory and creationism are equally weighted, and we (Wikipedia article authors) can't make up our minds. If you think that's what it implies, you don't understand the principle. Don't you think it's possible not to take an official stand, and yet still very strongly be in favor of one of the views? Of course it is. Why would you resist doing this, then, when you can (after all) say that most respected scientists reject creationism? It seems you want to cow creationists and people whose minds are not made up--as silly as they might seem to you and me--into believing what you believe. That's never the right way to go about it. Is there something wrong with letting people draw their own conclusions?
The Wikipedia articles on controversial subjects are not likely to change any minds. The kooks will go on believing kooky things, the rational people will go on being rational, and we can take enormous pride in reporting accurately on the situation.
As to historical revisionists, sometimes they're right, eh? And even when they're not, sometimes their views need to be reported--if only as a fascinating sociological phenomenon. -- User:LMS
The problem is that evolution is not controversial, not among anyone except the misinformed and those with an agenda. I honestly think that continual treatment of evolution as if it is the consensus of an extreme majority of scientists, rather than fact, is misleading. Do you think that it is a good idea to prefix every page with such a statement? "Most scientists now believe that Calcium has an atomic weight of 40.078..." It's silly, but if not, then topics like evolution are going to appear strongly singled out as questionable.
Historical revisionists are probably more important even. Yes, they can be interesting, but statement of their opinions as anything even resembling potential fact isn't just wrong, it is potentially offensive. To take the extreme example, even if it invokes Godwin's law against myself, what do you suppose would be the response if we said the holocaust was something widely considered to have occured by most historians, rather than something that occured? I'd consider that an awful legitamization of some of the worst opinions available. Or would you throw out such claims and keep those of other revisionists, less offensive but certainly no more valid? I say the best ground for decision is on merit; meritless arguments should not need consideration, unless we want to pretend all of reality is an opinion. And those probably include young earth creationism.
I'm with Josh here. Evolution is not controversial within the scientific community. As someone who has spent the best part of ten years researching creationism, I can attest that Creationists are not crazies or ignorant (far from it in many cases). However, in accordance with the views of 99% of theologians, scientists and philosophers, they are wrong. We should state so emphatically. To do otherwise is to be spineless. Evolution has traditionally been singled out among scientific areas and people are more likely to use accomodationist language so as to placate a vocal minority. This, I assure you, is contrary to the aims of any good project (particularly if it is haunted by the shades of the original Encyclopediestes). Evolution is a fact, natural selection is currently one of the few scientific mechanisms by which evolution can occur. Move on.
-- User:Jmlynch
Hear! Hear! I personally admire philosophers a great deal, study philosophy, and enjoy throwing the monkey wrench of doubt into common beliefs as much as anyone. But when philosophers and others go beyond rational skepticism to justify what are simply and clearly mistakes, one should throw at them what one personally believes to be a brick, and assuage one's conscience with the assurance that they are free to believe otherwise. --LDC
I'll reply later, but I would like to see someone reply, dispassionately, to my arguments. I had some, if you didn't notice. You're all rational people; you should be able to appreciate my efforts. -- User:LMS
I think we all agree with your arguments, and even with your value judgement that Wikipedia articles should be fact-stating and unbiased (two very independent goals). I think our disagreements here are with (1) the standard by which we decide that something is a fact, and (2) the extent of implied bias in fact-stating prose. There is no such thing as a fact without a standard by which it is judged to be a fact--even simple observational statements like "Fred claims that grass is green" imply that someone at some point judged this to be a fact because he observed Fred saying it (thus "direct observation" being the standard), and might be argued by someone. I happen to think "agreed upon with near unanimity by persons educated in the field" is a sufficient criterion for factualness. Sure, that will occasionally require us to change when some new discovery upsets an established fact, but so what? Any standard will require change--so why not choose one that's useful. Even your stricter standard of "totally uncontroversial" is no guarantee against future change.
Further, one can easily propagandize by stating only facts. A full page of "Creationists believe that...because..." with no reference to contradictory evidence or any other claim is clearly a propaganda piece, even though it happens to be fact-stating. The goal of eliminating bias requires more than merely being fact-stating. It also requires us to judge the rhetorical effect of an article, and to add rebutting facts where needed. I also believe that it is fundamentally impossible to eliminate all bias, and the all readers of any purportedly-factual article should understand that all authors have biases, and read in that context.
I hold the additional value judgments that Wikipedia should be lucid and useful. I believe that being overly afraid of bias sometimes compromises those goals, by cluttering articles with reportage on clearly useless beliefs held by a few minorities. This latter is certainly open to argument. Yes, an article specifically about Creationism (which is by its very nature a controversial belief) should probably stick to making claims about who said what, how many believe what, and how such beliefs compare to other scientific and theological beliefs. Reporting on a controversy as a controversy is a worthwhile thing for an encyclopedia to do. The articles should also point out arguments on both sides, but we should further report what are actual arguments and what are simply unsupported claims, because that is useful. Even the article on evolution should probably mention that there are a few people who choose to dispute it, and point to the article on Creationism, though it should otherwise be written simply and clearly by treating it as a the ordinary uncontroversial fact it is.
General articles on biology, on the other hand, should simply treat evolution as uncontroversial, because no serious biologist disagrees, and failure to do so compromises understanding of the subject. Articles about radiocarbon dating or tree rings should not be cluttered with an unnecessary reference to the fact that a few folks happen to believe that God placed all of the old rocks and trees here 6000 years ago, and is just trying to confuse us. --LDC
Can someone tell me where the matter involved in the Big Bang came from? If not, you will have to cut creationism in one stripe or color or another, some slack. All creationism is not biblical literalism. It is, however, in every case, an effort to arrive at a rational answer which science has so far not been able to provide ie, where everything came from. This is not Evolution/Talk, but Creationism/Talk. As something better than half the world populace embraces some kind of creationist explanation for the beginning of things, then we are not talking about appeasing a vocal minority here. We are talking about acknowledging what we don't know - the first step to finding out...
The simple belief that the world as it exists was created by a supernatural being is not what we are talking about here. The word "creationist" is never used to mean that; the word means denial of biological evolution, and that's what we're talking about. What you describe is merely Theism. --LDC
Let's get this straight once and for all (I have to do this with students every semester). Firstly, the Big Bang or any other theory of cosmogenesis has nothing to do with evolutionary thinking. Cosmologists could theorize about the universe and it would not dent the theory of evolution one bit. Secondly, and almost most importantly, creationists don't really care about cosmology - it's the proposition that humans evolved that creates problems for them (a proposition that is indepndant of cosmology). Lastly, theories of abiogenesis also have nothing to do with evolution. Evolutionary theory explains how the diversity of life on Earth came to it's present state, not how life got here and not how the universe got here.
Creationism is not an 'effort to arrive at a rational answer'. Rationality has nothing to do with it. As any theologian will tell you, the project of rationalizing the existence of a creator has fallen into disrepute for various reasons. Creationists can believe whatever they like about the history of life, but that does not mean they make scientific statements.
-- User:Jmlynch
Jim I am talking about creationism, not about evolution (pro or con). Did you notice that? Humans arrive at answers through reason. Use of reason = 'effort to arrive at a rational answer.' Let's get this straight once and for all - creationism, as a holding, is not necesarily either pro- or anti-evolution. That is the area where we see the most frequent fireworks and high-profile clashes, but please quit cofusing the two. Again - this is creationism/Talk.
'effort to arrive at a rational answer' = "I can see what caused z; y caused it. I can see what caused y; x caused it. I have investigated until I am blue in the face, and cannot tease out of the universe what caused a. Maybe whatever caused it is not natural, but super-natural. Maybe that's why I can't get at it." This may not be scientific method, but it is how people rationalize. Ie, it is an effort to arrive at rational answer.
This is where creationism as a subject comes from. Then we later on down the road get into such things as oral tradition, legends, myths, scriptures, and other means of passing down the stories about the supernatural. Never proved nor disproved, neither provable nor disprovable by scientific means, they are, by definition, unscientific. Now there are some parts of this tradition which seem to run afoul of scientific evidence. The most notable of these in recent time involves timescale of this planet and origin of species. When the scientist points this out to the dyed-in-the-wool hardline fundamental biblical literalist, the irresistible force meets the immoveable object. At the same time, bits and pieces of biblical history are verfied by archaeology daily. So, "See! The Bible is the infallible word of God!" and the scientist cringes.
BUT it is not necessarily the case that unscientific = wrong, any more that it is the case that proof of bible history a = proof of the whole bible.
To say that creationists believe that someone created things in the beginning is not to say that they beleive, 1-for-1, that SCIENCE in its infinite wisdom, ultimate arbiter of all human knowledge, is wrong. It is to say - "we believe these extra-scientific facts to be true." And who is to gainsay them?
When writing about evolution, that other topic, explain what theories it encompasses.
When writing about creationism, explain what theories it encompasses.
When writing about cosmologies, mention creationism. It happens to be one such.
Why is it necessary to flay the creationist? Has someone here disproven that a supreme influence, possibly an intelligent one, created the universe? Has someone read the report of a researcher who has? I think not. It's unfalsifiable. So it's unscientific. That does not make it wrong, or even irrational. "The geologic record does not support a literal biblical version of planetary time scale and origin of species." So how does that invalidate creationism as an overall subject?
LMS - I am with you 100%
and...
Blatantly stealing from Webster:
Main Entry: cre·a·tion·ism Pronunciation: -sh&-"ni-z&m Function: noun Date: 1880
Hey LDC - how do mean creationism is "never" used to mean that the world as it exists was created by a supernatual being?
OK, then, describe that as another sense of the word. The most common meaning of the word is as your definition above describes it: that various forms of life were created, as opposed to the belief that they evolved from a single earlier form. This is what a newspaper or magazine would generally mean when they describe someone as a "creationist writer" or something. If you choose to also use the word to mean mere theist, or to think of creationism as cosmology rather than biology, I suppose you're free to do so, but that's a second sense of the word, and perhaps separate articles should treat them as such. --LDC
If webster and I are wrong as to what the word means, then we'd better re-write the wikipedia article to reflect that creationism is only anti-evolutionism and nothing else.
The defense rests. You guys divvy up creationism into different articles however you want. maybe there should be an article biology/creationism (how's that for an oxymoron?) and another (which is the branch under which I created this one) cosmology/creationism arrows pointed to see each other, see theism, etc. I don't have the time right now. Damn - I just realized my cookies have somehow been cleared. This has been AyeSpy raving on above. Did not mean to hide my light under a bushel...
Then the article is misleading: the very first sentence says that creationism is the belief that a supreme being "created the physical universe and all life contained therein." Make up your mind: if you are a calling it a cosmology, then you can't include life, because life evolved long after the birth of the universe. If you want to include life, then call it a biology and take your lumps from the evolutionists. --LDC
Before I reply, let me just say that if we can agree that creationism as it stands, apart perhaps from the fact that the evolutionist insists on having the last word, is adequately unbiased, then our dispute is probably academic. So--on with the academic dispute!
I totally agree with your guys' attitude toward creationism. I think it's silly nonsense, too. Let's get that straight--we don't need to debate the merits of the theory (unless Bruce wants to do so). Moreover, I am probably the biggest commonsense realist and defender of rationality here. If you think my position is rooted in anything like relativism, that is excellent evidence that you don't understand my position and that you need to re-read what I've written more carefully. Jimbo, too, is a realist and defender of rationality, and he shares my view (in generalities, at least), as you can see on neutral point of view. Gee, how can that be? Read on.
Why on earth would I wanna do that, Larry? It's not like I advocate Creationism as such or anything. I only tried to point out that beating on the creationists is counter-productive. - AyeSpy (aka BrucieBaby)
1. Is evolution controversial? Yes--to the public at large, which will be reading Wikipedia. No--to scientists. For whom are we writing? The public at large--and scientists. (Perhaps that's what causes our problem here.) Lee says: "General articles on biology, on the other hand, should simply treat evolution as uncontroversial, because no serious biologist disagrees, and failure to do so compromises understanding of the subject." I think this is wrong on two counts. First, while evolution is uncontroversial among serious biologists, it is controversial among an alarmingly large portion of the general public; you do them and yourselves no favors by ignoring this controversy. Second, I see no reason to believe that recognizing that nonbiologists do not accept evolution as fact in any way "undermines understanding" of evolution. It doesn't even undermine your real goal, of course, which is to get people to accept evolution instead of getting caught up in idiotic creationist nonsense. In fact, the opposite is true: by failing to recognize the controversy, you essentially alienate the people you most want to teach. You would prefer indoctrination, it seems.
I think you may overestimate the controversy over evolution in the general public, but I agree with your point wholeheatedly - AyeSpy
2. Will we have to qualify every statement, or even every page, with a statement to the effect that it is the view of scientists? No, of course not. Why not? Because it's not controversial to anyone. Will we have to highlight discredited minority views as prominently as scientific fact? Of course not.
3. If we do describe scientific fact as what is accepted by all or nearly all scientists, then how are we misleading anyone? The question, again, is how? Have we encouraged anyone to believe anything other than what you want them to believe? Where's the downside you all fear?
4. Josh writes: "Historical revisionists are probably more important even. Yes, they can be interesting, but statement of their opinions as anything even resembling potential fact isn't just wrong, it is potentially offensive." Josh, I am not saying that historical revisionism should be presented as "anything even resembling potential fact." I am saying that the view should be described and appropriately attributed. How does that imply that the opinions will be presented as "anything even resembling potential fact"? Please bear in mind that we can reserve plenty of room for attributed explanations of why mainstream historians regard various kinds of historical revisionism as so much hokum. Our including such explanations is absolutely essential to having an unbiased encyclopedia, by the way.
5. Josh again: "To take the extreme example, even if it invokes Godwin's law against myself, what do you suppose would be the response if we said the holocaust was something widely considered to have occured by most historians, rather than something that occured? I'd consider that an awful legitamization of some of the worst opinions available." I would say that this is a very poor illustration (i.e., a "straw man") of my position. I imagine we should first clearly present what is generally believed about the Holocaust; then, perhaps quite far down in the article, we should have a paragraph or two that says something to the effect that the above is accepted (in generalities anyway) by all but a very small handful of trained historians, called Holocaust deniers and revisionists, blah blah blah, and explain the facts of that. This then attributes the claims about the Holocaust in a perfectly appropriate way and also mentions the fact that there is another (very minority) view. At the same time, we can state that most historians (most people) find such revisionism not only obviously false, but extremely morally repugnant. I hope I am making my position clearer now.
6. Is my position "spineless"? Jmlynch thinks so: "in accordance with the views of 99% of theologians, scientists and philosophers, they are wrong. We should state so emphatically. To do otherwise is to be spineless. ... This, I assure you, is contrary to the aims of any good project (particularly if it is haunted by the shades of the original Encyclopediestes)." Well, as a modern-day encyclopedist who has thought for many, many hours about this stuff (even before I started working on an encyclopedia), I can "assure you" that our doing what I ask is not in the slightest "spineless." Well, so much for mutual assurances; now to arguments. I think I can understand your reason for thinking so. Your assumption appears to be that, if we do not explicitly declare something to be true, then the reader can draw certain inferences about us--such as that we wish to placate creationists, or that we think creationism might be scientifically respectable, or that we might be creationists ourselves, etc., etc. Well, no. Reasonable people do not draw such inferences when presented with unbiased texts. You yourself, Jim, would not typically draw such inferences--you know better, of course. Suppose that a history text adopted a policy of failing to identify Nazi scum as the murdering bastards they were--but simply reported the facts about what they did. Would it be reasonable to assume that the text's author(s) might just be willing to admit the possibility that the Nazis were upstanding citizens doing a service to Europe?
Factually, I have read some very dry and "non-judgemental" accounts, practically devoid of adjectives. They still gave me the heebeejeebees and I never thought for a moment the author favored the Nazis. - AyeSpy
-- The facts about what they did, simply reported, permit most readers to judge for themselves that the Nazis were in fact "murdering bastard scum". Readers who make the judgement that the Nazis were in fact "upstanding citizens doing a service to Europe" would probably not be influenced by the editor's stating his/her personal opinion to the contrary. Arguably, we are insulting the reader by assuming he/she needs to be "pushed" to see things our way. -- 27 Septenber 2001.
7. Are being fact-stating and unbiased independent goals? No: in order to be unbiased, you must be fact-stating. In particular, you must be very clear about how you word the facts about what various majority and minority positions are. I contrast (in the present context--not when I'm talking metaphysics & philosophy of language, where 'fact' is a technical term) fact with opinion; opinions can be correct (and thus fact-stating), but one identifies something as a fact to emphasize that it is not under dispute, and one identifies something as an opinion in order to emphasize that it is under dispute. If, in our evolution article, we say that evolution is a "proven fact," while this is no doubt true (i.e., evolutionary theory has met ordinary standards of scientific evidence), the force of saying it is that evolution is simply not under dispute. Well, it is under dispute by your readers, guys. And (damnably) that's a fact. You aren't going to change their minds, or make the world otherwise any safer for rationality and science (which I love at least as much as you do), by explicitly averring that evolution is a fact and creationism is false. Actually, what you do is close off the avenues of discourse by doing so, setting up the less-rational folk in an antagonistic stance toward you, and make it harder to help them see the light. (Think of this as intellectual diplomacy.)
8. "Further, one can easily propagandize by stating only facts." Very true; that's why we shouldn't refer to my position as merely that articles should be fact-stating. They should be unbiased. I've explained what I mean by this in many different places many different times. "A full page of 'Creationists believe that...because...' with no reference to contradictory evidence or any other claim is clearly a propaganda piece, even though it happens to be fact-stating." I totally agree, and I will thank you for not setting up further caricatures of my view.
9. "I also believe that it is fundamentally impossible to eliminate all bias, and the all readers of any purportedly-factual article should understand that all authors have biases, and read in that context." But whenever we can identify bias, we can eliminate it--one way or another, and usually by going "meta." Give yourself some credit; people are creative; we can think of ways to eliminate bias when we spot it. (If you're still not convince, I suspect this is because you have a useless, impossibly-restrictive concept of bias. Personally, I prefer my concepts to be useful.)
10. "I believe that being overly afraid of bias sometimes compromises those goals, by cluttering articles with reportage on clearly useless beliefs held by a few minorities." Why think that articles will be cluttered with views held by minorities? If they are minority views, they will not be highlighted and ubiquitous in the same way that the majority views will be. That's as it should be. No one can reasonably complain.
My conclusion:
We should not impose our values on other thinking people. You are all liberal-minded people, I trust--not liberal politically, necessarily, but liberal in the sense that you want to free minds. I enjoin you to think carefully about the best way to achieve this. By failing to take stands on controversial issues, we aren't demonstrating weakness--in fact, we are demonstrating the strength of our faith in the minds of our fellow human beings. We should let them arrive at their own conclusions. We should trust them to use their own minds--just as you want to be trusted. More benighted souls than our enlightened selves will appreciate our stance and be more apt to listen when we hand down the truth.
I don't know if I can make my case any more completely...
No need to... - AyeSpy
Larry
Yes, well said. Perhaps my initial reaction comes from a different mindset about the "audience" of our work, since I generally think of encyclopedias as things used by schoolchildren, or adults looking for quick explanations of things outside their fields of expertise. Your view seems more appropriate to a collaboratively built growing record of facts, usable as a resource even for those with expertise. I certainly cannot argue with that vision, or your method for achieving it.
I would like to expand upon something you mentioned in passing that I think is important: you mentioned that an article might written largely as though uncontroversial, followed by a mention that the text above is believed by a majority, but controversial in that others believe something else (which is then linked to). I think this is a great method of doing it, and if using this technique meets with your approval I wholeheartedly endorse it as a way to write both lucidly and without bias. This seems appropriate for the article on the majority view, while the article on the minority view might be written more from the minority's own viewpoint (though careful to remain fact-stating).
Finally, I have encountered some places where I think minor amounts of open bias in an otherwise factual article is useful and not very controversial, so some simple method of doing those appropriately is needed. The specific example I have in mind is my pages on poker, which are full of opinions like "X makes a more interesting game than Y", or "game X is best played with betting structure Y", or "clay chips are easier to use than thin plastic ones", and so on. I originally wrote most of this text as a potential book which was full of my personal opinions. In the process of Wikifying it have removed opinions that were more significant and might be more controversial ("many casinos have rule X, which is stupid and counterproductive"), but those other little tidbits are the kind of thing I think someone learning the game of poker from a text such as this will want to know, and I think it's a waste of time to reword them all into "many poker players believe..." form. Of course if someone does object at some point (perhaps a manufacturer of plastic chips?), then rewording and pointing to other opinions might be necessary, but until then, I think they are clean and useful as they are. --LDC
Scientists believing in evolution as part of their work (basically all geologists and a good chunk of biologists) have made themselves easy targets for the religious loonies.
Evolution as taught and published in research papers, up to about 1980 was almost always a crock of unscientific shit, based more on bizarre ethical and religious ideas that hardly anyone belived, than on any observational basis, or any relationship with other well-founded scientific theories. That it took a bunch of loonies with no interest in science to put these failings on the agenda is very sad.
Since then evolutionary scientists have started to put their house in order. They still have a way to go, but some of the leading biologists and geologists are now researching evolution in a scientific way, and a genuine scientific theory of evolution is starting to emerge.
In teaching, especially at high school level, evolution is still stuck firmly in the 17th century. I really mean that. Although the name of Darwin is always mentioned, his ideas hardly ever are, and are never taken seriously, let alone some of the more modern ideas.
Maybe some of this should make it into the article (or maybe a different article about history of theory of evolution). Obviously it is not encyclopedia material as is, someone would have to do a complete rewrite from scratch.
I'm a big Steven Jay Gould fan. It's not so much because he's a brilliant geologist/biologist. Too be honest, I don't know whether he's brilliant, sort of good at it, or just plain incompetant. I like him more because he's the sort of person to write half a book about .400 hitters in baseball and essays on the Defenstration of Prague, and do a very fine job of it. I don't unswervingly trust everything he says, though, because I have no background and little comparable research to base it on. But the only mention I've ever heard him make of creationism is interesting, and I think it should be brought up here.
According to him, in The Panda's Thumb, I think it was, Creationism is an almost entirely American phenonmenon. He claims that most Europeans, even the most stringently religious, entirely embrace Evolution. John Paul II very nearly ( though not quite ) called evolution incontrovertible awhile ago. Since the only time I've ever been to Europe was a very bitter and unhappy one month stay in Oxford, with not much theological conversation, I was wondering whether or not this could be confirmed by someone who knows more about what they're talking about than myself. As for the rest of the world, I'd imagine that East Asia and India isn't very fertile creationist ground, and I've got no clue how Islam treats the issue.
I'd imagine that if the world view is significantly different than the American view, that probably would affect Wikipedia's policy in some way. The way I look at the matter, is that Darwinism, Natural Selection, or whatever you want to call it ( Evolution, which I've been unfortunately using so far, is a gross misnomer ) is a scientific law. Plain and simple. What goes up, must come down. The sun rises in the east. E equals MC squared, and species diversify according to rules of competition, climatic changes, genetics, and other such things that are well known. Those very few biologists who are strict creationist set out in the field of biology with the express intent of disproving evolution, and still have no basis for the 7 days nonsense. As for the original amino acids and divinely inspired puddles of goo, I just personally don't care whether or not god or anyone else got involved. But that's just me. User:Seckstu
Hear, hear. Creationism is a crackpot theory and should be presented as such as long as no shred of evidence can be presented. -- Pinkunicorn
The latter is entirely the wrong approach. Yes, creationism is a crackpot theory. No, it should not be presented as such, precisely because there are many people, some of them quite intelligent people who would like to make up their own minds for themselves, thank you very much, who disagree that it's a crackpot theory. It is not our job to convince the world of the truth. It is our job to present the facts about what the theory says, about what evidence there is (or is not) for the theory, about who promulgates it and their arguments and who opposes it and their arguments--and do all this in an unbiased fashion--and let people make up their own minds for themselves. If we do this, we will gain the respect of everyone, including the vast majority of those who think that creationism is a crackpot theory. -- User:LMS
I think this article should be clearly about (so-called) "scientific creationism". If I hear the word creationism, that is what pops into my mind. At present the article begins with a statement which many people who believe in evolution might agree with:
Also, I agree it is primarily an American phenomena, but it has spread to other parts of the world, e.g. Australia. I once had a substitute English teacher a few years ago (back when I was in high school) who was a "scientific" creationist. I also not so long ago saw ads posted up around Macquarie University (my uni) advertising lectures run by Answers-in-Genesis, an American creationist organization. But I'd still say it has a lot less support in Australia than in the US. -- User:Simon J Kissane
Moved this to /Talk 1 October 2001:
"[We need a way to sum up the situation that does not make it seem as though Wikipedia officially endorses evolutionary science, as the above does. (Whoever gets the last word seems the victor, eh?) Yes, that sounds ridiculous, but that's an illustration of lack of bias.]"
Moved from talk:Main_Page:
Don't know where this goes, since James Ussher doesn't have a page yet.... does anyone know if he's the guy that argue that God, when he created the Earth & all its animals and plants, etc., also created fossils of animals that no longer existed--created them *as* fossils, which had never been actual alive animals? Anyone know what that school of thought was called?
You're thinking of Philip Henry Gosse, who wrote a book called Omphalos: An Attempt to Untie The Geological Knot that expounded this idea. It crashed and burned in such a firestorm of criticism from both scientists and biblical literalists that I don't think it ever gained a groovy name a la uniformitarianism or catastrophism. Gosse called it "prochronism", but I don't think that got into the language. It's generally referred to as "Omphalos" after the book, or sometimes "in situ creation" -- User:Paul Drye
I'd like to pose a brief, very honest question concerning falsifiability as it relates to creationism and evolution. Based on the falsifiability article, I can easily agree that Creationism is about as falsifiable as the very existence of God, for about the same reasons. But how is evolution falsifiable? The experiment itself would have to last those same billions of years, wouldn't it? -- Wesley, a Christian who has wondered about this for a while......
Lots of potential observations would falsify evolution: for example, finding reverse-dated fossils (i.e., finding a fossil of a species dated older than the species from which it apparently descended); finding colorful sexual-selection markings on a species without vision (like blind fish and moles); finding a species so bizarre and different from all others that it has no plausible ancestor (say, finding one that doesn't use DNA/RNA); finding a species with a new complex major body organ or apparatus that is totally absent from its closest ancestors. That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but there are probably others. -- LDC
I think the issue is more delicate than that: Darwinism is ultimately a probabilistic theory. Things that increase fitness are more likely to happen, but they don't have to happen, nor are things that decrease fitness impossible to happen. There are virtually no rules in biology without exception, there are just some things that are vastly more likely than others, and for good reasons. Not all species are well-adapted: in fact, all species die out after a short while, so observing a particularly mis-adapted species could just mean that it is in the last phase of its life cycle.
Supporting or falsifying probabilistic theories is a difficult matter. If I show you a die, and claim it is loaded, how can you test this hypothesis without cutting the die in pieces? You have to roll it repeatedly, but what counts as a falsification? Statisticians come up with criteria of course, but they are not as hard and fast as one would like, and they are difficult to apply to biology, because Darwinism is not advanced enough predict the answer to a question like "How likely is it that a species living exclusively in water would have lungs as opposed to gills". If Darwinism could compute a probability, then the statistician could attempt to check it against the evidence. Darwinism is a qualitative, not even a quantitative, probabilistic theory at this point, and it is truly tough to falsify those. --AxelBoldt
The mistake you're making here is assuming that evolution is one theory. It is not. It is literally thousands of theories, each one falsifiable. Formally, the set of such theories is known as the "evolutionary mechanism theories," or EMTs. You cannot falsify the set of EMTs all at once, but you can falsify any one of them. And, in fact, this happens all the time. The consequence is that either the theory is dropped as unsound, adjusted to become more sound, or evaluated in its interaction with other theories, and then perhaps several theories are modified.
The following was added to the main page, but is clearly commentary, so it belongs here. I think he's right that some mention should be made of the different schools of thought, including "intelligent design" (though it would be incorrect to call it a scientific hypothesis as he does, because it's clearly not falsifiable). --- LDC
Don't forget that there are two major kinds of Creationism: Sudden Creationism and Intelligent Design.
Sudden Creationism is the religious doctrine that God created everything in a very short period of time (one week) a relatively short time ago (six thousand years). What He created includes the artifacts known as fossils, which would in this view not comprise a 'record' of any sort.
Intelligent Design is the scientific hypotheses that evolution, i.e, the appearance of new species over time, really did happen. Its cause was not random genetic mutation but intervention by a divine force.
Sudden Creationism is not a scientific theory because it interprets the only evidence available (fossils) according to pre-conceived doctrine. Intelligent design is a viable hypothesis because it fits the facts rather than interpreting them away.
The difference between Intelligent Design and Darwinism is the change agent. While Darwinists regard God as not being involved in evolution (often because of His presumed non-existence), advocates of Intelligent Design regard God as being involved.
-- Ed Poor
Further, in the highly controversial aspect of the evolution of humanity itself, which is where the big hangup is in the minds of creationists, I added a blurb for creationism. I mean, what's the harm. See Homo sapiens, which itself needs some work. :) -- User:Chuck Kincy
This was indented, so it looks like it was intended to be discussion:
If it wasn't discussion, it still didn't really fit into the article, and doesn't say anything that isn't already well covered here.
WRT the comment on US/not-US views on creationism, there's more to it than that. The comment probably applies in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and most of Western Europe (first-world nominally majority-Christian countries), but beyond I simply don't know (for example, the mostly Catholic areas of South America), suspect that the debate, if any, between evolution and religious creation views is framed in entirely different terms (Japan, for instance), or suspect that much of the general public simply isn't aware of evolutionary theory because of a lack of education (large parts of rural Africa, perhaps). -- User:Robert Merkel
It would probably be difficult to find hard data supporting the idea that creationism is less strong outside of the US, but here's my evidence:
I don't know about islamic countries though. --AxelBoldt
There's much more Creationism/Talk than Creationism. I'd like to find a way to extract the arguments for and against Creationism and put them in a Wikipedia article to stand for all time. The threads here are too hard to follow.
How about a structure like I. Define the term II. Explain why (some) people believe it. III. Give a critique of those reasons.
I'm well aware that Darwin's theory is dominant. I have no problem with it getting the lion's share of Wiki space, even on non-Darwinist articles! Just let the other views get heard and understood is all I ask. After that, critique all you want. If the ideas are any good, they'll stand the test. If not, the opposing ideas will be clear winners.
Just have a fair contest. User:Ed Poor
I deleted the comment that "People outside USA accept darwinism" - I want numbers and reference sources. Actually although I am obviously an evolutionist, I would dispute that "darwin's view" is dominant. It certainly is among the "educated" classes of the world, but how many people are "educated" to the point where they can discern the distincrtions of Darwinism? I'm not supportive on any claim regarding "who and how many believe what" until we have HARD DATA with well-defined methodologies for the collection of that data. - User:MMGB
I found some better data to put on the Evolution poll page; it should be folded into the Creationism article eventually. Unfortunately, the best data is Gallup's phone poll of 1000 Americans (which isn't very good); the only European data was an internet poll, which is even worse. --LDC
If "commonly-accepted scientific model" means the model commonly accepted by scientists, than it sure isn't ID or any other stripe of Creationism. But if you meant to indicate that the non-Creationist model was commonly accepted by the general public, your own link proves you wrong.
Now, don't get me wrong. I respect you, and I love science. And I'm not going to insist that everyone slap labels of approval on all my pet ideas. But can't you let me describe Creationism is it is, without sticking in your critique before I even get up to speed? -- User:Ed Poor
Revised this sentence, which glosses over ID's areas of agreement.
Article said Papal acceptance of evolution had ended debate in Catholic countries for "those who hold to Papal infallibility". I deleted the reference to papal infalliability, because evolution is not ex cathedra, so papal infalliability does not apply to it. And besides, most Catholics who accept the Pope's views on evolution don't do so because they believe him to be infalliable on the issue -- rather they believe the scientists, especially since the Pope does not oppose what they say. So I replaced that bit with "for most people." -- User:SJK
How can I put in an HTML link to non-wiki information, such as http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/sides.html ?
Also, Jonathan Wells writes:
-- User:Ed Poor
Moved from main page:
Ed Poor: You removed 'fundamentalist' from the following, saying most Americans believe in creationism and aren't fundamentalists:
Firstly, I disagree that most Americans are creationists -- 49% of Americans believe in evolution vs. 47% believe in creation, according to the Gallup Poll. (That 40% believe God has some role in it only makes them creationists if they believe this is a scientific theory.) Secondly, the point is that American support for creationism is because of the influence of Christian Fundamentalism in the US, even if many Christians who support believe in creationism are not fundamentalists. -- User:SJK
No, you're mixed up on the poll numbers. Give me 10 minutes, and I'll lay it all out for you. This war is senseless. Can you be patient? -- User:Ed Poor
Poll numbers, quoted verbatim from < http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr010214c.asp>
Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin and development of human beings
Ed: And, the poll, by my interpretation says 49% of Americans believe in evolution, 47% in creationism. I think very few of the 40% who believe in God-guided evolution believe this to be a scientific theory as opposed to religious belief. -- User:SJK
SJK: And my interpretation is that 9% of Americans believe in unguided evolution, 40% in God-guided evolution, and 47% reject evolution altogether. -- User:Ed Poor
Gosh, no. I have no idea whether any of the 40% who believe in God-guided evolution are even aware of Intelligent Design (ID). Also, I'm not sure how compatible ID is with Darwinian evolution. Doesn't the latter specifically exclude any supernatural causes? If so, this would seem to differentiate from ID, to say the least. -- User:Ed Poor
It's entirely "compatible" in the sense that it's entirely irrelevant to it, as are all non-falsifiable theories. --LDC
This discussion is going too fast. I wrote this three or four Edit Conflicts ago:
Perhaps you deem the term 'creationism' to exclude God-guided evolution (see Intelligent Design). If so, we need to decide which usage of 'creationism' the wikipedia will retain. For example, should the articles on Creationism and Intelligent Design be separate, with Creationism held not to include ID? Or will we stick with my proposal that Creationism includes both Sudden Creationism (what you call simply 'creationism') and ID?
I will support whatever best accords with the Wiki Nature. I am really not trying to garner support for my biases, and I am open to constructive criticism.
-- User:Ed Poor
I think there are two theories of God-guided evolution, one of which is compatible with Darwinian evolution, the other is not. The one which is incompatible, the one you are putting forward, is that speciation occurs by direct divine action (which is what the Intelligent Design article says). This theory is certaintly a form of creationism (indeed, I would question whether it deserves the title 'evolution', but that is another issue.) The other one, which is compatible with Darwinian evolution, holds that God guided evolution, but puts this forward as a purely religious view, not as a scientific theory. This second theory of God-guided evolution is compatible with Darwinian evolution, and is not a form of creationism.
Now the Gallup Poll you provide does not distinguish these two theories, so the 40% who believe in God-guided evolution could be believing in either. However, I think it is more likely than not they believe in the second theory; most of these respondents probably identified as evolutionists, not creationists, and thought they were agreeing with science, just expressing a religious view on top. However, the Gallup poll itself really can't answer this question. -- User:SJK
I don't think either of your proposed definitions is adequate. As the term is generally used in the press and by most Americans, a "creationist" is someone who rejects evolution, and believes that God created man. This would exclude most ID proponents, but it would include far more people than the small minority which you describe as "sudden" creationists (your term--I've never heard that term anywhere else). I personally know quite a few people who accept, for example, that the Earth is 4 billion years old and that the fossil record is accurate, but maintain that mankind in its present form was created (or instilled with "souls", or whatever) by God. The spectrum of belief is complex and interwoven. It simply cannot be reduced to a few categories. --LDC
I also repaired two sentences that claimed scientists reject ID because it is a religious idea (which is false--they reject it because it is nonfalsifiable), and removed the word "proof" from the next sentence, since no scientist would ever use that word. --LDC
LDC: Just in case there is a misunderstanding here, 'Sudden Creationism' and 'Intelligent Design' are Ed's terms, not mine. (Sudden Creationism occurs only once on Google: http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/GCCCREA.TXT). I think that although there are a broad variety of God-guided evolution viewpoints, they can be divided into two classes -- those compatible with the modern Neo-Darwinian theory of evolution, and those incompatible with it. I think that those who believe in theories involving God incompatible with Neo-Darwinian evolution belong in the creationist camp, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise :) -- User:SJK
I'm not confused, SJK; I was replying to Ed, not you--it just looks that way because the damned edit conflicts make it impossible to have a thoughtful discussion here since we're posting every 5 minutes. And Ed's right--"Intelligent design" is a well-known mainstream term, and deserves coverage. --LDC
Perhaps the thing to do is write up the worthy viewpoints that disagree with the modern Neo-Darwinian theory of evolution. That done, we can decide whether to call them 'creationist' or what. I really don't care what terms we wind up using; I just want to see the ideas included somehow. -- User:Ed Poor
I've been lobbying for that all along, Ed: go to it. There's a lot about the ID school that should be covered on that page. Who created the term? Who were its early proponents? What are the major books in the field? What are their specific claims? How has the field developed? What are its specific disagreements with other beliefs? I don't know these things--I've studied science. But you claim to be an adherent of the field, so do some basic research and write a good article on that. Then we can decide how to link it in with the rest of these. --LDC
Not sure of the relevance to this. Did the writer intend to link fundamentalism with the rejection of evolution? (If so, it's not clear and should be expanded on.) I vote for taking it out. --Ed Poor
The Newsweek article makes a claim that 700 scientists take creation science seriously, which is a reasonable statistic. It is then claimed that the remainder therefore believe in "the scientific theory"; which theory is not stated, and at any rate this cannot be assumed, so I removed that assumption.
I also removed:
from the discussion of process theology, because it is confusing: it says that PT is consistent because it makes no claims of divine intervention, which implies that Darwinism denies divine intervention (which is false, though certainly many Darwinists themselves do). And at any rate, every non-scientific theory is compatible with any scientific theory--that's why they're not scientific, so this statement doesn't say anything. --LDC
However, this cannot be taken to mean that the 40% who believe God guided evolution believe in Intelligent Design Theory -- they may merely believe that God guided evolution as a religious view ( Intelligent design), while accepting Darwinian evolution. (Or, even more likely, they may not have sufficently understood or thought through the issue to understand the distinction at stake here.)
Creationism refers to more than just the belief that God created the universe; it refers to the belief that He did so in such a way that evolution did not occur, as accepted by science.
The following looks like commentary, and I'd like to take it out (or rephrase it) --Ed Poor:
From what I know, it's basically true, so it shouldn't be deleted. In order to be npov, though, it probably should be reworded. Can anyone actually come up with a rigorous definition? It is a "creation science" term, so it should be in scientific terms, i.e., testable in any given case. Some examples would be good, too. -- User:Dmerrill
You guys have been so darn nice and accommodating that now I'm being to doubt some stuff that I fought keep in:
I'm no longer sure about the "very few" part. It could be anywhere from 10% to 50%, I guess. Anyone got any hard numbers on this? -- User:Ed Poor
Since the statement about process theology being compatible with darwinism was removed, I also removed the following statement:
Personally, I think that the point that both process theology and deism accept Darwinism, while creationism doesn't, is a point worth making, but we have to be consistent here if we are going to describe which theologies accept Darwinism, so for now I took out the statement regarding Deism. -- Egern.
"Sudden Creationism is generally considered an expression of religious literalism. Sudden Creationists oppose evolution on the grounds that it conflicts with the account of creation . . ."
You could replace it with "Young Earth" creationism, which probably should have a page of its own. -LDC
User:Ed Poor suggests some questions the article should address:
Some answers: by definition, creationism conflicts with Darwinian evolution as accepted by science. If it is compatible with it, then it is not creationism, as the term is normally used.
It is possible for a creationist to accept some form of evolution, so long as they do not accept the full Darwinian theory. (Otherwise, if they fully accepted Darwinian evolution, they wouldn't be a creationist.) -- User:SJK
SJK's formulation would seem to divide ideas on evolution into three broad categories:
1. Do all agree? 2. If so, may I revise Creationism to reflect this "clarification"? -- User:Ed Poor
The following needs revision to conform with SJK's definition of creationism (one I'm happy to accept):
or
The "Others" should not be understood as "Other creationists", but rather as "Other people". Sorry if my text was less than clear. -- User:SJK
The creationism
talk page has become so long we clearly need to archive older discussions (in lieu of someone boldly deleting discussion that is no longer relevant to anything). So, see
Talk:Creationism (archive) for the creationism talk page archive.
I would be happier with the article if it became so clear that the following sentence would be untrue (and thus have to be omitted):
I think we have won half the battle already, assuming SJK's definition of creationism holds.
It should also be possible to resolve any remaining ambiguity over the use of evolution into (a) the accepted Darwinian theory in particular and (b) evolution in general (any theory even the Darwinian one). Then I can die happy :-) Ed Poor
The article is sometimes unclear when mentioning evolution and creationism. Perhaps their meaning is shifting
Maybe we need a chart with categories such as:
These would be overlapping categories, and the various terms could be defined in reference to them. -- Ed Poor
According to the Catholic Church [1]:
Okay, folks, I took another stab at creationism. I hope this version makes it quite clear that scientists (a) don't accept it and (b) have very good scientific reasons for not accepting it.
My aim was to present creationism as creationists see it, while giving science its due. There are a dozen scientific articles supporting evolution, and only a couple of creationism articles. Try not to feel that every article must repudiate creationism lest science fail in its educational goals. I really doubt the creationism article (as I revised it) will sway anyone away from the scientific camp.
The goal of NPOV on controversial issues is to make clear what the various positions are, and that's all I'm trying to do here. -- Ed Poor
As contentious as the debate has been at times, as have to say that the article as it now stands is pretty good article. I'd like to see a few more specific references to important works of specific creationists (this is, after all, an encyclopedia article, and should have a bibliography); but other than that, I think it does a good job covering the field. --LDC
From a recent addition to the article:
This needs to be qualified, since for instance the pope and most other christians are not creationists yet believe in all those stories. AxelBoldt
I am not sure this makes sense:
"Natural Selection" is a major mechanism of speciation, which I thought creationists deny. User:Slrubenstein
Are there any numbers known for supporters over the WORLD? It's kind of unnecessary to focus on the USA only, and read a whole paragraph with all kinds of different polls conducted only there. Jeronimo
If a claim so sweeping is going to be made, it would be nice if it were accompanied by something like a coherent argument. The conclusion has no obvious relationship to the issue. Mkmcconn
I think that it might be helpful to point out the difference between specific kinds of creationism, which have more reliable and stable definitions - and organize the article according to those more stable definitions. The reason is, creationism is just too big of a word for what the article is targetting. The entry complains that the meaning is shifting. That's not really true, IMO. The meaning is growing, because opinions (which have always been diverse) are multiplying. Does anyone agree with me? Mkmcconn 02:13 Dec 27, 2002 (UTC)
Young Earth creationists who interpret the Bible literally believe that the Earth is somewhere around 6,000 years old (according to Bishop James Ussher's dating) and usually reject the Big Bang theory (which is related to creation of the universe). They claim that scientific findings contradict an old Earth and therefore evolution itself, a view that most mainstream scientists regard as absurd.
I would have to disagree with this statement. A 6,000 year old earth is not absurd to "most mainstream scientists", it is absurd to ALL scientists. If you believe the earth is 6,000 years old, you do so in the face of overwhelming science to the contrary, and with no science to support you. I would change it to "a view which is at odds with archaeology, biology, geology, climatology, and quantum physics", or at the very least "a view which scientists regard as absurd". Cardsharque
This article still needs to do a better job of defining the various kinds of creationism. For the most part, it seems to concentrate on scientific creationism and a scientifically literally interpretation of Genesis. This leaves the majority of creationists under-described. Mkmcconn 17:10 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Creationism is not considered a part of salvation theology for most Christians, and all major Christian denominations accept evolution theory.
I'm pretty sure there are a few denominations which do not (Southern Baptists? Mormons?). -- stewacide
I'm removing the above sentences because they assume the reliablity of evidence and procedures that as yet can only be accepted on faith. Also, dinosaurs becoming extinct no more disproves creation than any recent animal extinction, so 'key tenent' is not really NPOV. Jtocci 22:00 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I tried to reword these statements into something true and couldn't do so satisfactorily so I cut them. Roman Catholicism has always had creation as a doctrine, recent statements by the pope saying evolution is worthy of study doesn't change that. And how many ministers preach creation? When they do are people groaning? I think you merely have to look at the poll results in the article to know that most aren't. I welcome anyone to try to reword this. Jtocci 22:11 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I feel that RK is removing NPOV statements that should be left in. For example, "the only form of evolution admitted in pure creationism is microevolution" and "there are legitimate gaps, hence the debate on this point". Angela 21:00 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
To address your last point, I did delete one sentence that may contain the germ of a new idea; however, it really wasn't a topic I deleted - it was one vague sentence. We certainly can restore it, and we can have a section on this third party (philosophers, as you mention), as some of them apparently believe that scientific findings are no more or less falsifiable than religious claims. But this would need some specific examples and positions. The statement you want restored is vague, and needs elaboration. RK 22:46 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I think that material concerning who or what the Creator is, is more relevant to the issue of Creationism generally speaking, than is the material concerning proof and the relationship of science to Creationism. Although the latter is certainly a hot topic and plenty interesting, it isn't fundamental to the issue, as the former is. Just voicing out loud my disapproval that a strait-jacket has been put on this article, which in my opinion is the main reason that the patient appears to be deranged ... Mkmcconn 04:40 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)
There are three main views on "creation" and human origins, although they surely don't have equal numbers of adherents. In chronological order of appearance, they are:
Regardless of the degree to which individual Wikipedians adhere to these 3 views, I think they make a pretty good framework for defining and discussing the various schools of thought.
We might, for example, discuss the creationism inherent in various theologies. Also, several of the currents of thought regarding evolution may be defined in terms of "God created" vs. "no divine intervention".
Most interesting for me is the conversation between various scientists on the one hand, religious believers on the other hand, and a host of thinkers in between -- on the issue of what the fossil record and other evidence brings to bear on the issues. -- Uncle Ed 05:07 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Yes, let's stop fighting over what the Wikipedian position on creationism ought to be. It ought to go without saying that the Wikipedia cannot take a position -- on anything.
I think editors are afraid that if they let the article describe creationist views without a sufficiently strong rebuttal, it might mislead readers into becoming Creationists! -- Uncle Ed
A few edits back Angela made a good point that seem worth emphasizing. There are two theories to explain speciation. The Theory of Evolution and the The Theory of Creationism. Creationism is as much a theory as evolution. As a scientist I have no problem with accepting and considering both theories. There is apparantly considerable evidence to support both theories. Ping 09:15 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)
No doubt there are some scientists who feel that Creationism is a valid scientific theory, but the vast majority of scientists reject Creationism as being something other than science. Moreover, there is a general antipathy among scientists for the forensic tactics of Creationists. -- NetEsq 14:43 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)
NetEsq makes an interesting point, the vast majority of scientists reject creationism True, but when did popular vote become a method for establishing scientific facts? The point I was making is that Creationism is, and always will be, only a theory. As such it does not threaten the Theory of Evolution. There is never going to be a vote upon the subject, not least because no one would pay any attention to the outcome anyway. Ping 07:58 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)
This is a straw man argument. No one has asserted that popular vote is the method for establishing scientific facts. Rather, scientific theories are subject to peer review, and when a theory that purports to be scientific has been rejected as unscientific by the vast majority of scientists who have reviewed that theory, it is our job as Wikipedians to note that fact.
In the talk sections of various other Wikipedia articles, I have commented that it is not our job as Wikipedians to resolve factual disputes. Rather, if a noteworthy person group of people makes a factual assertion, it is our job to report that factual assertion and the factual assertions made by other noteworthy persons or groups, taking great care to note who said what and leaving the reader to determine the credibility of competing authorities. For instance, we can report that the former Iraqi Information Minister asserted that Saddam Hussein was still in control of Baghdad while noting the contrary reports of embedded reporters. Moreover, we can report that a significant group of people believe that the Earth is flat, even though the vast majority of scientists and laypersons reject this viewpoint. -- NetEsq 15:02 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)
A valid point and well put. Ping 07:21 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
There has been a great deal of talk on the Talk page for the Evolution article about merging the Scientific Creationism article into the article on Creationism. I think this would be a huge mistake. The creationism article should cover the philosophy of creationism, and the scientific creationism article should cover the pseudo-science which is the classic adversary of the Theory of Evolution. Beyond a certain amount of ambiguity in the terms creationism and creation science, the two topics have very little in common with each other. -- NetEsq 04:30 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I hate to say it, but on this issue at least, I agree with NetEsq. Creationism and creation science are two separate things: not all creationists are creation scientists (quite the contrary!). Placing everything we have on creation science into this article would be like placing everything on the Unitarian church in our article on Christianity. -- mav 05:22 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I just opened up the Third College Edition of Webster's New World Dictionary ( ISBN 013-949298-4) and found the following definitions for creationism and creation science, right next to each other:
Note that the theological doctrine in re the genesis of souls -- i.e, creationism -- is a philosophical topic that has *NOTHING* whatsoever to do with the Theory of Evolution, much less creation myths such as the biblical account of Genesis, whereas the second term is a highly specific one that has entered the official lexicon of the English Language (as set forth by Webster).
In other words, put creation science anywhere you want, as long as you don't put in the creationism article. -- NetEsq 06:35 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
<< [T]he older theological use should be discussed at creationism (theology). >>
Now *that* makes sense! Bravo! -- NetEsq 06:53 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
From the article:
The debate on creationism entails a debate on what constitutes scientific evidence, and what kinds of facts are acceptable as proof. Ultimately, the discussion rages with unverifiable assertions on both sides.
The reason for passionate debate on the matter is known however. Believers on both sides begin by accepting something on faith and build from there. Creationists believe in a creator and scientists believe in various dating techniques. For those who hold that faith is not admissible as evidence, there is no evidence to begin a debate.
This is totally non-NPOV. Scientists do most surely not accept that their arguments are based on faith. The two paragraphs make the article worse rather than better in their present form. -- Robert Merkel 06:13 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
OK, I'll try to rewrite/merge the two articles in a way that hopefully makes sense. Please give me a few minutes and then look over the result, but let's try to avoid edit conflicts. -- Eloquence 07:11 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
OK, I'm mostly finished. I considered moving all the theological stuff over, but since it's currently relatively brief, that may not be necessary. Please tell me what you think. -- Eloquence 09:14 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Well, if you want the theology completely separate from rationality, as it usually tends to be, then Wikipedia is not the place for such presentations. You will have to live with "interruptions" by people having different views, unless you are dealing with very specific theological questions. I think the current article does a reasonably good job at this, and defines creationism in more ways than most readers will probably care to know before going into the controversy. But if you think that the theological formulations need to be further refined, just go ahead and do it, we'll see where it goes. Just don't expect me to write about angels on pinheads, or something like that, I'll leave these questions to the experts. --
Eloquence 10:45 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I moved a substantial amount of content to Creationism (theology) because it seemed to be better suited to that article, but please feel free to mercilessly revert that edit if anyone thinks the move was inappropriate. -- NetEsq 17:36 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I suspect that this move is wrong because I look at it and I say inside, "Good one. That scores ten points for my side."
But hey! The game here is not scoring points. Rather, we should be doing something like describing the "system" of our modern world.
How can you split part of creationism out as theology! Practically speaking creationism is all theology. That is, the split of creationism into 1) God individual creation, 2) traducianism, and 3) pre-existence are merely variations on creationism in regard to the soul. You could also generate another humorous page on creationism (evolution) in which you could classify the various conjectures on the "means" by which God influenced the evolution of species.
By my thinking, as soon as you introduce God as some element in your hypothesis, you have a theology from which likely you oould remove God by Occam's razor to get a simpler testable hypothesis in the real world. Hence, practically all of creationism is theology. I leave as an exercise what part of creationism that would NOT be theology. To work that exercise maybe I could draw up a hypothesis that some entirely natural space alien "created" something on earth, but again it seems to me that Occam's razor would remove that space alien from every useful hypothesis--except possibly for something like those hypothetical crop circles that are signed by "Space Alien" in a metal alloy that could not possibly have earthly origin.
Hence, I propose as a feasibility study that I rewrite the combination page of creationism and creationism (theology) in a new set of pages with practical disambiguation where advantageous, starting from the link User:Rednblu/Development/Creationism which will of course have its own Talk page. After I and whoever wants to help has a working draft that we think is an improvement over what is already there--if we can do that--we will move it to replace creationism with a redirect from creationism (theology).
Maybe the split is the best solution. I don't have a real idea until I try it. Rednblu 21:07 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Simply put, the article "creationism" should give a history of creationist thought and an account of the controversy, while detailed discussions of various variants of creationism, some of which can be united with science and some of which cannot, should be discussed in creationism (theology). Ultimately, we may also want to merge creation myth into creationism (theology) as these two are somewhat redundant, and creationism (theology) is currently extremely Christian-centric. -- Eloquence 01:29 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The source I used for the statistics I quoted was the following:
A more primary source would be good, I'll see if the companion book to the series provides a direct source for the claim. -- Robert Merkel 02:06 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Eloquence, in classical theology, a theory is a construct of systematic abstract reasoning, as opposed to a fact. Creationism in its old sense is not properly, a theory. But neither does it "refer to a belief". It is a doctrine, whether anyone believes it or not. In any case, the purpose of editing that sentence was to remove the clumsy phrase, "refers to the belief", not to insert the word "theory" (which I used only because not all accept it as doctrine). I would prefer the sentence to read "traditionally, creationism is", rather than "creationism refers to". Are you opposed to my intention, here? Mkmcconn 05:05 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
their arguments have to be presented in the article about said movement, just like the arguments of the Flat Earthers are presented in Flat Earth, and not in Flat vs. Spherical Earth controvery, or even in Geology.
Evolutionary biology is the mainstream,
and the arguments by creationists are, for the most part, irrelevant from a scientific point of view,
so there is nothing biased about largely ignoring them in the article about evolution and linking to creationism instead, just as there is nothing biased
about ignoring the Flat Earth arguments in articles about geology. -- Eloquence 08:23 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I think it would be a good idea to avoid this usage of the term, since a theory by the scientific definition has to be testable, which theological "theories" certainly are not. Doctrine, dogma, belief would all be fine with me. As for the "refers to" phrase, I did not find it clumsy, as "creationism" was explicitly put in quotation marks, so it could be read as "the term 'creationism' refers to ..". But some people seem to have an aversion to this particular phrase, so I have no strong objections to replacing it. -- Eloquence 05:36 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Rednblu, as long as this article is about the scientific views of believers in creation, who try in various ways to prove the truth of their position, then this page is the right place for writers about science to test the merit of their claims. In fact, this is what "scientific creationists" want. They desire to have their claim tested on its scientific merit, rather than prejudicially dismissed as a religious view. If this is the scientific creationism article, then this page is the Creationism v Evolution page. It is on this page that the debate is allowed to appear undecided, so that the debate can be understood. Mkmcconn \
The Evolution article is different. It is a science page, where the finding of fact is reported: like reporting on the present understanding of how electricity works. It doesn't make much sense for a description of the present state of understanding to be interrupted with questions that have been answered in the past. The problem is clutter, redundancy, and confusion. Mkmcconn \
The answer is scope. Here, the scope of the topic touches on religion and science. It is not a theology page, but it invites theological debate; and the scientists say that it isn't science, but it invites interaction with science on its own terms. Each article is scoped, to allow in one place what is excluded somewhere else. Here, creation and design are treated as testable scientific issues; on a theology page they are not, and on the Evolution page they are not. In my opinion, that's an accurate report of the present state of these issues, with regard to Creationism. Mkmcconn 15:18 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Some duplication here because of contention for the edit privilege on the page.
Rednblu, as long as this article is about the scientific views of believers in creation, who try in various ways to prove the truth of their position, then this page is the right place for writers about science to test the merit of their claims. In fact, this is what "scientific creationists" want. They desire to have their claims tested on its scientific merit, rather prejudicially dismissed as a religious view. If this is the scientific creationism article, then this page is the Creationism v Evolution page. It is on this page that the debate is allowed to appear undecided, so that the debate can be understood. Mkmcconn \
The Evolution article is different.
It is a science page, where the finding of fact is reported: like reporting on the present understanding of how electricity works.
It doesn't make much sense for a description of the present state of understanding to be interrupted with questions that have been answered in the past. The problem is clutter, redundancy, and confusion. Mkmcconn \
The answer is scope. Here, the scope of the topic touches on religion and science. It is not a theology page,
but it invites theological debate; and the scientists say that it isn't science, but it invites interaction with science on its own terms.
Each article is scoped, to allow in one place what is excluded somewhere else. Here, creation and design are treated as testable scientific issues;
on a theology page they are not, and on the Evolution page they are not. In my opinion, that's an accurate report of the present state of these issues, with regard to Creationism. Mkmcconn 15:18 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
What do you see?
What is REALLY there!
Rednblu, please try to express yourself in a somewhat coherent manner, and please do not break up paragraphs to insert your comment or duplicate signatures. Instead write a reply on the next indentation level. See Wikipedia:Talk page for details. Please do not expect me to read through this mess. -- Eloquence 18:58 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Rednblu, there's a lot of answering going on, but I'm not sure what you are saying. One thing I can say is, tell me what you think should be on this article's page, in terms of information rather than arguments. Then I think that we'll be getting somewhere, in negotiating what the content should be. Mkmcconn 23:32 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
There are three main views on "creation" and human origins, although they surely don't have equal numbers of adherents. In chronological order of appearance, they are:
Regardless of the degree to which individual Wikipedians adhere to these 3 views, I think they make a pretty good framework for defining and discussing the various schools of thought.
We might, for example, discuss the creationism inherent in various theologies. Also, several of the currents of thought regarding evolution may be defined in terms of "God created" vs. "no divine intervention".
Most interesting for me is the conversation between various scientists on the one hand, religious believers on the other hand, and a host of thinkers in between -- on the issue of what the fossil record and other evidence brings to bear on the issues. -- Uncle Ed 13:08 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)
/ -> I'm growing too reflective in my responses, and I'm sorry. But please bear with just a moment's more reflection. If creationism is identical to what I would rather call The doctrine of creation, then it must be noted (for example) that the Roman Catholic church, like most other traditions, has never made a final pronouncement on either the truth or the falsity of evolution, but is dogmatic concerning belief that everything is the creation of God. Evolution is a peripheral issue. That evidently is not what this article is dealing with Mkmcconn \
If any theological perspective is peripheral to what we are calling creationism, but religion is essential, then it may be possible that what appears under creation beliefs (a redirect from creation myth), creator god, and a few other places, is suitable here. Mkmcconn \
But the state of present debate is one of our guides for categories. And at the present, "creationism" is almost precisely equivalent to biblical creationism or scientific creationism. These are are various religious critiques of the atheistic theory of evolution, usually based on or referring to the Bible. In that case, this article concerns the use of scientific arguments to disprove atheism in particular (especially Christian, Muslim, Hindu, and Intelligent Design - which differ significantly between themselves). Evolution is narrowed to its aspect as an expression of atheism. This is the reason that an atheist is more likely to complain of POV in this article, than the creationists are, when defining terms key to the debate, such as "creationism", "science", "evidence", "proof", etc. Mkmcconn 17:08 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)
There are problems under "Microevolution vs. Macroevolution". The article speaks of small critters, but microevolution concerns small changes in a population. Does the author referred to, accept the macroevolution of simple organisms, but not of complex organisms? Mkmcconn 15:14 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Why is the article so US-centric? Tannin
Richard Milton. See Darwin Doesn't Work Here Anymore: Shattering the myths of Darwinism.
Please note that I do *NOT* endorse the work of this author. -- NetEsq 18:13 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Richard Milton is, in fact, very well known among evolutionary biologists for his categorical rejection of Biblical creationism as well as his criticism of Post-Darwinism. To wit:
(Shattering the Myths of Darwinism, Preface.)
I am an anthropologist by training, and I accept the Theory of Evolution at face value -- i.e., as the most reasonable and scientific explanation for the genesis of life on Earth and the origin of the human species. However, I have always found a great deal of controversy among evolutionary biologists as to the reliability of the claims made by their peers. In fact, the only thing that most evolutionary biologists seem to agree upon is that anyone who questions the scientific validity of the Theory of Evolution should be labeled a Creationist before they are promptly tarred, feathered, and then run out of town on a rail, not unlike the Cold War persecution of accused communists in the United States.
As I stated previously, I do not endorse the work of Richard Milton: His criticism of Post-Darwinism is weak at best. At the same time, he is clearly not someone who is trying to advance a religious agenda. -- NetEsq 21:18 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Point of order: There is no love lost between me and the Fundamentalist Christians who seek to promote their religious values by impeaching the legitimacy of the Theory of Evolution, and careful reading of my post will reveal that I have no pity for such people. However, I do not think that Richard Milton falls into this category, and -- wrong as Milton may be -- I do not think that he deserves the same contempt that one might reserve for a modern day William Jennings Bryan.
On this note, leading the charge against Milton is none other than Richard Dawkins, author of The Selfish Gene, one of the most controversial books ever to be published on the subject of the Theory of Evolution. To wit, it has been apparent since at least the 1970s that genes are not evolutionary units, at least not in any functional sense, no matter how one defines genes. And if there is such a thing as a "selfish gene," it would be synonymous with an oncogene.
Rather than respond to the criticism of anti-evolutionists such as Milton, Dawkins sees fit to poison the well by labeling Milton a creationist with a religous agenda, and he ain't. He just ain't. -- NetEsq 05:30 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Thanks to all, for toning down the conversation to a decent level of civility and politeness. It's much easier to follow the thread(s) when there's a dearth of invective.
Now, how about the "creationism vs. evolution" issue, in regards to government-run public schools in America? Should that issue be in the creationism article -- or what?
Somewhere in the Wikipedia, there should be an article outlining the viewpoints of the various groups who want:
You can all probably guess where I personally stand on the creationism vs. evolution controversy. Yet the issue of what I (or you) want the US government and state governments to encourage children to believe is another, separate matter. I don't actually want the goverment to indoctrinate children with my own church's views (that possibly violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment). On the other hand, I don't want goverments indoctrinating children to reject religious views (that certainly violates the Free Speech and Freedom of Religion clauses).
So, where do we go from here, fellows? -- Uncle Ed 14:47 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Given my druthers, I'd leave this article to the tender mercies of Eloquence, as I agree in spirit with the assertion that creation science/creationism is the bane of public education and legitimate scientific inquiry. Moreover, without the context of the Theory of Evolution, there would not be an article on creation science/creationism. The same thing cannot be said about the Theory of Evolution: It stands on its own two feet.
During my college days, I encountered quite a few religious zealots who were anthropology majors, and it was rather intriguing to see them write long, drawn out, technical expositions of the mechanisms of biological evolution, then finish their essays with, "Of course, I only wrote this paper because I want a good grade. Everyone knows that the Theory of Evolution is just a bunch of crap. The true story of creation is found in the Book of Genesis in the King James Version of the Bible."
In other words, if parents want their children to learn creation science/creationism in lieu of and/or in addition to the Theory of Evolution, there is no shortage of parochial schools in the United States that will be happy to accomodate them, and these schools will do a very good job of insulating impressionable young minds from the dangers, be they real or imagined, of secular science. -- NetEsq 16:08 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Interruptions: It takes imagination to write these interruptions into a flowing narrative. I worry about seeming to flatter Eloquence, but I think he did a good job of organizing the material into an encyclopedic treatment of the debate, instead of a transcript of the argument. That pattern should be upheld. Mkmcconn \
Education: just to review the obvious (but it will not directly help this article). Within the creationst communities themselves, the priority of issues is in this order 1) Belief in God through 2) belief in the word of God for the sake of 3) training their children to escape the insanity of the world, to 4) make their children useful to the kingdom of God and a benefit to the world. In order to put these goals to work, they need 5) knowledge of the world. Education that consists of of the lowest 1/5 of their priorities, is useless to their purposes. They cannot all afford private education, and they do not all feel competent to educate their children on their own. They turn to the redemption of public education to the Evangelical cause, because they are tax-payers, and feel that the collection of their taxes for education, implies the privilege of control of education. Finally, these are essentially the same priorities that the Catholics have; and the fact the majority accept evolution does not change the fact that 4/5 of what they think is important, cannot be mentioned in a public school classroom. The difference is, that Catholics, due to their more stable institution, have a greater range of educational choices. And now, conservative Muslims and Sikhs are entering the picture. We are facing a situation in which public schools do not teach, even in the most general terms, what most people think is most important in education. And this would not be so bad, except that a growing number feel that the schools are, in fact, indoctrinating their children to be hostile to their parental influences. Mkmcconn 16:21 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I'm not ignoring it, although that is a valid concern. Rather, I am expressing my own viewpoint in re the consequences of appeasing creation scientists/creationists. (I.e., "Given my druthers . . .") Ultimately, I defer to Wikipedia's NPOV policy, and I think that creation science/creationism should be discussed with the same sort of dispassionate academic demeanor observed by scholars such as Stephen Jay Gould. And for all his clear, obvious -- and eminently *rational* -- bias against creation science/creationism, I think that Eloquence has repeatedly demonstrated a keen understanding of Wikipedia's NPOV policy.
You are preaching to the choir, but this is an issue that is ancillary to this article. One solution that has been proposed is funding parochial schools with tuition vouchers, a solution that is almost as controversial as the subject currently being debated. -- NetEsq 16:50 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
True enough. Wikipedia's NPOV policy is not aptly named. In fact, Wikipedia's NPOV policy requires a balanced presentation of noteworthy biased viewpoints. To wit, "The vast majority of scientists reject creation science as pseudo science, and this is why. . . ." -- NetEsq 17:15 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
What has happened here is that the evolutionists have established an official censorship over the content of the Creationism page to prevent the development of a NPOV page that explains what creationism is.
So I propose the development of a NPOV page on creationism away from the current powers of the evolutionist censors. For example, we could start a NPOV page on creationism at User:Rednblu/Creationism. Alternatively, you might start a NPOV page on creationism under your own LogonId. We will maintain a link at the top of this page to where the actual NPOV development is occurring.
I am curious to see what an actual NPOV page on creationism would say.
Before you participate in such a revolutionary act, I suggest that you consider what participation in this project will cost you when the evolutionist censors come after you. Rednblu 12:16 24 Jul 2003 (UTC)
---
That has not been my experience. As a whole, religious conservatives are *VERY* concerned that their children are being taught *ANYTHING* about sex in the public school system, much more so than they are about whether Creationism is being given equal time alongside the Theory of Evolution. In fact, a common assertion that is made by religious conservatives is that their "children don't need to learn about sex until after they're married!" In the rare instances where I've been able to point out that the Bible is full of all sorts of salacious material -- e.g., Lot and his daughters; the Song of Songs -- and that it is highly advisable for adolescent girls to start visiting a gynecologist regularly before the onset of menarche, I am quickly labeled a Godless heathen. -- NetEsq 21:04 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Actually, I have a great deal of sympathy for conservative parents who wish to shield their children from agendas which the parents find objectionable, be they religious agendas, secular agendas, humanistic agendas, or simply libertine agendas, and -- in the instances where I have had the opportunity to do so -- I have been more than willing to intercede on behalf of the religious conservatives who want nothing more than the opportunity to raise their own children as they see fit. At the same time, I think it is somewhat disingenuous to say that most religious conservatives speak openly about sex, even amongst themselves. I am very familiar with such people, given that I have a first cousin who teaches Greek and Hebrew at a seminary, and his grandfather (no blood relation to me) donated an entire gymnasium to Pepperdine University. My cousin, his parents, and the benefactors of my cousin's grandfather would be the first to admit that their values are puritanical, and that they see a great deal of danger inherent in the frank and open discussion of the taboo topic of sexuality. God only knows why they tolerate my frequent challenges to their world view. -- NetEsq 22:52 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Some parents tell the children stories of creationism. And other parents sue in court to keep creationism out of public schools.
Some parents think they should protect their children from the doctrines that the majority wants to teach. Rednblu 00:48, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
No doubt there are people who would question whether parents should have the right to decide how their children should be raised and/or what their children should be taught in school, but for me that issue is a non-starter. The only exceptions that I see to that general rule are the issues of when children should be removed from an abusive parent and/or when children should have the right to emancipate themselves and take on the rights and responsibilities of an adult and/or the right to choose their own legal guardian.
In the United States, minors are more or less automatically emancipated at the age of 18, but for the fact that people under the age of 21 cannot drink alcoholic beverages, people under the age of 25 cannot run for Congress, and people under the age of 35 cannot run for President. Emancipation proceedings for minors over the age of 16 are fairly common, a little less common for minors over the age of 14, and extremely rare (but not unheard of) for minors under the age of 14. -- NetEsq 00:07 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Netesq, this is a very interesting statement; and as I think about it, the more interesting it is (it couldn't be more opposite of my own views of the issue). But, before I settle into my conclusions about what you mean by it, I should ask first, what do you mean by it? Mkmcconn 15:20, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I wholeheartedly agree. As I'm sure you remember, I attempted to point out that creationism is not synonymous with creation science, and I argued for the creation (pun intended) of a separate article on creationism qua creationism in theology. Somehow that article ended up getting redirected to the present creationism qua creation science article, and the article on creationism qua creationism in theology ended up in the article on creation beliefs. I am not particularly satisfied with the way that played out, but I feel that I've more or less shot my wad on this issue: I'm not particularly well-informed on the theological aspects of creationism, and I would have a difficult time making a case for creationism qua creationism in theology having its own article. -- NetEsq 18:18, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
If I may be so bold, and play the Devil's Advocate on your behalf, the primary conflict here seems to be a philosophical and moral one wherein atheists, agnostics, and secular scientists seek to impeach the value of theology as a field of inquiry. Assuming, arguendo, that this is the motive of evolutionists, one could logically impeach the arguments of evolutionists in re creationism (qua creationism in theology) as being red herring arguments and/or fallacious arguments ignoratio elenchi. This fallacy occurs when an advocate of a particular position is ignorant of the logical implications of his or her own premises and (as a result) draws a conclusion that misses the point and/or changes the subject to draw a conclusion that no reasonable person would dispute. -- NetEsq 02:10, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Tannin has just reverted an edit by Jtocci without discussing any of his reasons, so I reverted it back. I see nothing wrong with the arguments Jtocci added so would like Tannin to point out the problems before he reverts it back. Angela 00:58, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I reverted under the "obvious nonsense" rule: the edit, among other grossly POV silliness, said that "no transitional form has ever been found", for example - and that's about as far from the verified, accepted, uncontroversial truth of the matter as it's possible to get. See any biology textbook. Tannin 03:08, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)
The theological perspectives on creationism are already discussed in detail in creation beliefs. This article makes quite clear that usage of the term creationism has shifted from referring to specific theological concepts to describing the belief in the creation of the universe or Earth by a deity. I fail to see what kind of "theological perspective" is missing. —Eloquence 08:38, Aug 18, 2003 (UTC)
Let's not revert stuff, merely because we don't agree with it. I myself have no opinion on no transitional form has ever been found and neither should the article. Why not say this?
Of course, we might want a put a bit more detail on the views of X and Y, such as (a) on what basis X claims no such form has been found; (b) what precisely a "transitional form" is supposed to be; and (c) what evidence Y advances in favor of them (certain fossils, I guess).
Let's not suppress each other's pet ideas, but help one another give them their fullest expression. I really want to know why creationists believe in creationsm, and I really want to know why evolutionists believe in evolution. Please help one another to make an article of lasting value. -- Uncle Ed 13:48, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)
<<Creationism, in contrast, is the work of people writing about science>>
I am wholly in favor of moving the content of the present article on creationism to creation science or (even better) scientific creationism, thereby leaving the creationism article to cover the topic of creationism in the context of theology. Indeed, this was my original suggestion, long since steamrolled over in favor of stuffing creationism into the article on creation beliefs, which is a wholly unsatisfactory solution. -- NetEsq 03:38, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
<< . . . [T]he controversy described here, is actually the controversy between atheism and theism; not the Creationism controversy >>
I echo these sentiments. -- NetEsq 04:58, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Uncle Ed, do not read the following. It does not matter that "scientific creationism" is a contradiction in terms. How could POV terms be "unacceptable" if they are the terms that people use in reality? That you see a POV term as "unacceptable" is symptomatic of the problem here. You have not reached a NPOV level from which you can see that "scientific creationism" is just another POV label that people in reality use--with no more threat to your dearest beliefs than the other oxymorons in the English language such as "free market," "Communist conspiracy," or "free love." If you do not permit the oxymoron and POV label "free market" to be used, you will cause the kind of nonsense page that you have at Creationism. The nonsense label "free market" stands for something in the real world because people make it stand for something even if you object very strongly from your POV to what the label stands for. Wake up! Rednblu 05:28, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
KRS added the following:
Hinduism, Creationism and Evolutionism
Hinduism doesn't see a conflict between creation and evolution. In Hinduism, the triumvirate [Gods] Brahma- Vishnu- Shiva are considered respectively Creator- Protector- Destroyer.The various Avatars of Vishnu the Dasavathara [Dasa=10, Avatar= incarnation]are generally accepted as showing a remarkable and very close co-relation with Darwinian evolution.
The Avatars are as follows 1.Matsya- fish 2.Koorma- turtle 3.Varaha- single horned pig 4.Narasimha -half lion half man 5.Vamana- dwarf 6.Parasurama- a great sage 7.Rama - a great and righteous king 8.Balarama- brother of Krishna 9.Krishna- a popular God who was a cowherd 10. Kalki- God on a horse.
[There are also other versions of the Dasavatar, one of which incorporates the Buddha]
According to popular belief, the first nine avatars are already completed, the tenth avatar is yet to come and would coincide with Pralaya when the world would end in water- to rise yet again. This is supposedly in the near future in the Kali-Yuga, yuga being a unit of time.
The concept of cyclic time is central to Hinduism [unlike the concept of linear time in many other religions]. In fact, time is represented as a wheel- 'Kaala Chakra- Wheel of Time'.Probably this could be one of the reasons why there is no conflict between religion and science in Hinduism.
Probably any debate on creationism Vs evolutionism would have to necessarily include and accomodate the concept and theories of time.
An interesting point is that though Brahma is considered the Creator, unlike Vishnu and Shiva,there is no temple of worship for him reasons for which are given in myths.
Since hinduism does not see the conflict which is the center of this article (which focuses on the modern usage of the word "creationism"), this material probably belongs on creation beliefs. It could use some copyediting first, though. —Eloquence 21:31, Aug 19, 2003 (UTC)
But I don't agree with the fact that it is controversial or should come in some other section. If this was a specific article on Christian beliefs I would not have even touched the page. The first sentence clearly says that creationism believes that God created man and evolutionism that man evolved through natural selection. In such a general context, if you point out that in Christianity a conflict occurs between both beliefs and add on that most scientists don't believe in Creationism, I have an equal right to add that in Hinduism there is not much of a conflict. How can you say that because there is no conflict it need not be included? It is precisely because of this that it has to be included.In connection with the mention of surveys, in India, the most learned and brilliant scientists still believe in God and are not atheists because of this lack of conflict. But I have not mentioned this because, there is no scientifc survey, just a general acceptance that religion and science coexist peacefully.
In Islam, for example, figurative sculpture is not allowed because only God can create man, and man is not allowed to create man. This is also germane to the discussion. probably someone weel versed in this should add on info.
<<Once again, you're missing the point.>>
The way I understand creationism, it really is a belief that the account of creation in the Genesis is true, and it really is largely confined to the USA. The way I understand ethnocentrism, the article would be Eurocentric or Americocentric if it were phrased in a way that didn't make that clear and claimed or lent itself to the interpretation that every religion adheres to these beliefs, or that opposition to evolution is prevalent in every culture. Since that is not the case, the article is not Eurocentric. -- Miguel
Thank you, NetEsq, for putting this succinctly. There is no Christian control of this page. I am beginning to see some anti-Christian and anti-European statements here that really bother me.
RK 12:29, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Yes. Of course. I am being dramatic. But in the process, I appreciate everyone's contributions to what I am learning here. To summarize, I hypothesize that our conversation about the Creationism page mirrors the structure of the problem in the outer world. And I appreciate your coming in and out of the conversation and not abandoning the knotty problem here. Sure, there are no "controllers" here. But I would not feel that I knew a very good solution if I could not come up with something that the "controllers" would not look at and say, "Well. Maybe you have a point. Give it a try." So I think my job is to keep coming up with more ideas. I liked your idea that the page should be titled Creation science. And Mkm's question about making the page match people's experience made me think. And Elo's complaints about "Creation science" as a title made me think about the problems of oxymoronic and POV titles for pages. Is this learning worthwhile? It is at least as entertaining as the book I am supposed to be writing. Thank you and good night all. Rednblu 06:16, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Eloquence, now the intro is clear and I am getting out of the debate. But I think that wherever the word creationism is mentioned it should be represented by an upper case C- this will remove any remaining ambiguity. I am not touching the article, so please oblige KRS 15:07, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I wish there were some way to clear the air. Maybe all this "hot air" could move over to the global warming article, heh heh. But, seriously, folks...
We need clear definitions of terms. Can we say that creationism is the belief that God deliberately created life? And that a particular major current of creationism claims that deliberately created ALL forms of life, including every species known to man?
Can we come to some sort of agreement over how to classify those creation beliefs that are not involved in the "creation vs. evolution" debate? I think Eloquence moved or advocated moving some of the Hindu ideas into another article, on the grounds that they are MERE BELIEFS.
I guess it is " creation science" or " scientific creationism" that causes the biggest fuss here. I'm reading a book by Larry Witham which says that English-speaking creationists reacted to the Darwin centennial by re-asserting their religious beliefs. This assertion included the claim that geology backs up the Old Testament account of Creation. Of course, the outcry against this claim has been loud and long.
Really, we need at least one or two articles to cover creationist ideas properly.
If we can cover all this material in one article, that's fine and dandy. But it might requre multiple articles. It goes without saying that no article which speaks about evolution will go unchallenged for more than a day or two around here, if it attempts to "disprove" evolutionist ideas. I don't think any of us imagine we could or ought to write an article which uses the Wikipedia name to endorse anti-evolution ideas -- or for that matter, pro-evolution ideas. That wouldn't be neutral; Jimbo said that this encyclopedia shouldn't take sides in controversies.
However many number of articles we settle on, we should try first to agree on an editorial policy. I suggest that we:
I think this will work. What do you all think? -- Uncle Ed 15:40, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
From the American Heritage Dictionary:
From Princeton's WordNet:
From Encarta's Dictionary:
From Webster's 10th Edition:
From Columbia Encyclopedia:
And so forth, and so on. Every serious work of reference uses the term creationism in the sense in which it is used here -- to describe the primarily Christian belief in the origins of the universe and life that is opposed to scientific explanations. It is only Rednblu who has been campaigning here for weeks to use creationism according to his pet definition, long after all participants in the debate had agreed on a useful structure. Sadly, Rednblu has managed to again cultivate dissent among the participants in the debate without regard for logic or evidence. —Eloquence 15:50, Aug 20, 2003 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article did [does] not mention the meanings suggested by the above mentioned encyclopedias explicitly right away. When as a newcomer I came into the picture, the meaning suggested was a generic one and that's why I participated at the spur of the moment, seeing such a major lacuna. You knew what creationism was, I didn't, but the article gave a wrong beginning impression- the point of the encyclopedia is to inform the ignorant person. Even now, you have introduced this concept only in the second sentence, I think it is still too late an introduction in an encylopedia.The different encyclopedia entries you mention are very clear about this in their very first sentence. As Uncle Ed says, all this 'hot air' is because of a lack of clarity in defining the subject matter at the very beginning. It is not a waste of time for you to counter every newcomer's arguments because the same ambiguity is bound to rise again and again with every new reader unless you see it from their eyes, which you can't- being into the subject
KRS 16:51, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I will be happy to do so: "[T]he mere existence of the creationism article in its present form speaks volumes to the fact that a significantly large and outspoken group of people think that Eloquence is categorically wrong." When it comes to the issue of creationism vs. evolution, I agree with virtually everything that you have to say on the subject. To wit, I have engaged many creationists in heated debate and debunked my fair share of straw man arguments in the process, but I am not prepared to dismiss all creationists as kooks.
That's not true. I pointed this out previously when I cited Webster's New World Dictionary wherein creationism is clearly defined as a theological concept that is totally distinguishable from creation science. To wit, Webster's entry for creationism makes no reference whatsoever to Christianity or the Bible, whereas the entry for creation science does. However, creationism and scientific creationism have become more or less synonymous in common usage, and it is our job as Wikipedians to explain that the two terms do not mean the same thing.
It's like I'm looking in a mirror. Perhaps you would have more "time for this" if you spent less time engaging in the very rhetoric that you seem to find so reprehensible. -- NetEsq 17:30, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
The dictionary that I cited does not "miss the modern usage of creationism." Rather, it lists creationism and creation science side by side as separate entries; after reading both entries, any intelligent person would come to the inescapable conclusion that creation science is a particular type of creationism that is sui generis. To wit, "a theory, concerning the origin of the universe, which states that the literal biblical account of creation can be scientifically verified: essentially rejects Darwinism and much of modern scientific thought, esp. in biology and geology." -- NetEsq 17:41, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
But he did. What we need is a place where the people neutral to this debate can put together a NPOV article or series of articles. Any ideas? The Creationism page does not seem to be available for development of a neutral article. We could start with Uncle Ed's outline. We could let all the people who like the current Creationism page be the final judges on whether we did a better page. I wonder what a NPOV page on Creationism would look like. Rednblu 02:22, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I have removed the following paragraph: "Ironically, the creationism debate, as part of the larger evolution debate ( which in turn is a part of the larger "science vs. religion" debate) is largely dispensed with--the scientific world has grown to be more respectful of spiritual life, and the religious world is mostly made of up non-literalists--people who value their religion for its moral values, and less for its literal-and-complete representation of fact."
This isn't correct; in fact, in the United States of America, the opposite is true. The creationism debate not only has not been dispensed with, but Christian fundamentalists in many states are in the process of a full frontal assault on science, by manipulating school boards, and threatening to unseat politicians who refuse to adavance their religious goals in public schools. Organized groups are trying to force school boards to promote Biblical fundamentalist religion in Biology classes. The fact that most scientists respect religion is irrelevant to many religious fundamentalists; the respect is not often returned, and many still view the study of evolution as Satanic. RK 12:23, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
There have been many articles on this issue from CSICOP and Skeptic magazine. In addition, see these websites:
<<Stop trying to force English speaking people to change the way they speak English, in order to further your religious and political agenda.>>
I do not object to you calling me POV or mischaracterizing us as having a "religious or political" agenda. How about the following as grounds upon which we can talk? We need an unofficial place in Wikipedia where we could develop a NPOV article on Creationism. You can control the official Creationism page. Uncle Ed has some great ideas, NetEsq has some great ideas, and you have some great ideas. We could develop a NPOV article on Creationism. I am sure of it. Rednblu
What I mean by NPOV is that the whole article would characterize as faithfully as possible what the various people have said--without homogenizing the points-of-view. As an experiment, I with the help of many others put together the atomism page to illustrate NPOV on a highly incendiary subject. Rednblu 15:24, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
This page desperately needs an Arguments for Creationism section to go after the Arguments against evolution section, but I'm not qualified to write it. Populus 16:13, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
<<Creationism is the belief, based on a literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible (Genesis), that God created the universe and all life within it, especially mankind. In this sense, creationism has its origin in the Hebrew Bible and classical Judaism, and was adopted early on in Christianity.>>
Those statements follow the definitions in several very Biblecentric dictionaries. To say that the "belief that God created the universe" is based on Genesis is one interesting POV. But that Biblecentric POV is as ridiculous as saying that "law" is based on the Ten Commandments. Some creationism is based on the Bible. And some is not--according to the various scholars that spend much of their time with such matters.
In any case, we should not be deciding one POV versus another. We should record the varieties of POVs and the way that they have evolved in history--and ascribe the various POVs to the generous men who invented those different POVs. Rednblu 01:39, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
According to Webster's New World Dictionary:
-- NetEsq 04:25, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
"Murray Eden showed that it would be impossible for even a single ordered pair of genes to be produced by DNA mutations in the bacteria, E. coli,?with 5 billion years in which to produce it! His estimate was based on 5 trillion tons of the bacteria covering the planet to a depth of nearly an inch during that 5 billion years. He then explained that the genes of E. coli contain over a trillion (1012) bits of data. That is the number 10 followed by 12 zeros. *Eden then showed the mathematical impossibility of protein forming by chance. He also reported on his extensive investigations into genetic data on hemoglobin (red blood cells). " [5]
Isn't "public schools" a bit ambiguitous in UK/English ? Ericd 23:36, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I suggest replacing the first paragraph of the article with a disambiguation notice based on the Webster's 10th edition and OED definitions above, along the lines of:
I use divine agency to avoid the culturally biased term God. By the way, the article creationism (theology) should not redirect here, the previous content should be restored, and a similar dismbiguation notice added. Any comments? -- Miguel
However, if I might suggest, could we develop this very different kind of page somewhere else like in the UserSpace so that it would not have the appearance of Us winning against Them. At the end we could have something to compare with the current Creationism page and everybody could vote on their preference. Maybe? Rednblu 01:02, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)
--
Well, I am acknowledging that you received three thank yous from some people who have used some harsh words in denouncing what certain very smart and very eloquent people people have done in keeping the
Creationism page locked into its current look, format, and content. In my opinion, all of us, whether for or against the current
Creationism page have a goal of making the
Creationism page better. I would say that you are on the side of making the
Creationism page better.
I can see the advantages of agreeing on a "reference version"--now that you point them out. All of the UserTalk comments would be in one place automatically. How about this for a plan? We start with the agreement on a "reference version" as you suggested. And if an edit war starts, we then move the page development to somewhere else such as a UserSpace. Just an idea. Let's not give up on developing a better Creationism page just because an edit war starts over the Creationism page. I would hate to see so much intellectual promise go to waste just because of this genetic hunger to defend the territory that all of us men inherited from the ancestors of the chimpanzees. ;)) Rednblu 15:29, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)
One more general comment about the procedure. I suspect that, as the page is revised from top to bottom, inconsistencies or redundancies may arise. I suggest that allowing redundancy is good, and that material from further down in the page can be copied into the newly rewritten section, and changed in the section being rewritten if necessary. Inconsistencies requiring only minor modifications can be repaired immediately, but for major modifications I suggest discussing them here first. As the rewrite progresses, we will eventually get to everything. -- Miguel
How about let's work ideas for the Introduction here on the Talk page. Then when we have what we think is a good idea, one of us will integrate the idea we have developed here with the text in the current Introduction, making sure that the worthy comments from the past end up on some page here in Wikipedia. Any ideas?
Rednblu 16:02, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I have made an edit to the introduction to the page. Describing pre-scientific creationist beliefs as a "product of their era" seems insulting to modern-day creationists. Just because it's an old idea doesn't in itself make it wrong -- Robert Merkel 07:39, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)
With the reinstatement of the article at creationism (theology), I was able to recapitulate some public domain material there that should help flesh out the topic of creationism in the context of theology. I invite all interested parties to review and/or mercilessly edit the material that I have added to that article before I attempt to add more. -- NetEsq 20:58, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I would suggest the following structure:
Concerning the matter of non-Christian creationists in the anti-Darwin sense, I think these should not be excluded from the creationism article.
Concerning the question of whether the discussion of the evolution arguments, the arguments against or for creationism, or any other part of the current creationism page should be moved away, I propose the general rule that if any of these sections dominates the article and the maximum article size of 32K is exceeded, this section is briefly summarized, with a link to a more extensive discussion in a separate article.
Concerning the recently added disambiguation intro, I have no strong objections to it, but it may place too much emphasis on a specific Catholic doctrine that is of little relevance to the majority of our readers. Perhaps it would be better to highlight the page creation beliefs prominently in the intro and to have a less prominent disambiguation notice for creationism (soul) in the head of the page. Does this sound like a fair and reasonable proposal to the participants? —Eloquence 20:01, Aug 24, 2003 (UTC)
--
* Creationism will be primarily used to discuss the following: ** history of the anti-Darwinian creationist movement (as per the "origin of the universe/life/everything" definition of creationism)
<<* Creation beliefs will be used to describe detailed theological models that have been put forward by different religions to explain our origins.>>
<<* Creationism (theology) or perhaps, better, Creationism (soul), will be used to develop the doctrine concerning the origin of the soul. If we use Creationism (soul), we can redirect Creationism (theology) to Creation beliefs.>>
23:08, 25 Aug 2003 . . Rei (Reverted: Jecar, the goal is to *remove* POV, not to add it.) My full apologies if I have done something wrong but I fail to see how the removal of a duplicated word could in any way be perceived as adding "POV". Jecar.
Perhaps an article on a religious belief should only include religious points for and against that belief? Arguments from scripture and such? There is the belief in that the world was created as described in Genesis. That's a religious belief. Then there is the purported science, that attempts (and fails, I believe) to give a scientific grounding to that religious belief.
I propose having one article on Creationism for the Genesis-based creation myth, and another article on creation science. The term "creation science" is well used (63,000 hits), and unambiguously refers to the purported science. Then we add in creationism (soul) for the Catholics, creation belief for a general overview of creation myths around the world. Martin 10:13, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I understand that some proponents of the theory of evolution consider "creation science" to be misleading. Similarly, some proponents of Holocaust revisionism consider "Holocaust denial" to be misleading. These concerns should be taken into account, but they are not the whole story. However, given your objection I take back my specific suggestion with respect to titles. Martin 12:57, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Its best to have a disambiguation page as for 'English'. I brought this issue for discussion in a general sense in the village pump- referring to cases such as calculus, Tajmahal, architecture etc., But the solution suggested- to qualify every meaning in a bracket- seemed to me inadequate. After this there was not much reaction, probably because I am a newbie:-)
Here the primary tussle is which meaning is more important than the other or is the 'first among equals'. This cannot be resolved by any discussion, each person[especially two] thinks his POV is correct. It is therefore best to have a very short creationsim disambiguation page which will redirect to creationism[creation science] and creationism [theology]--- KRS 14:01, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Why not have two sections which cite examples/ proof so that other participants who are not active but like to have a say in the final NPOV :-) get more knowledge on this. Some of this exists, but it can be organised like in a vote. Each one can cite their sources, so that the dubiousness of Internet- related info can be verified by everyone interested KRS 14:08, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
An important point which seems to be missing in many such cases[ actually only one I know of till now-a small part of the tussle of New imperialism was due to this]is the etymology. All this debate can be resolved when while creating a page with a predominant meaning, one brings out at first its etymology. Then the redirect can go to the historical meaning from the etymology. Thus justice is done both the current meaning and the historical meaning KRS 14:16, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
<<The term "creation science" is perceived as an oxymoron by many in the anti-creationist movement, so choosing it as a title would not be neutral.>>
While the debate rages above this header, let's try to get something positive out of it by working on the Introduction. It would be productive to focus the discussion on what this section should say. Here's the current version. -- Miguel
I would personally subscribe to this introduction in its entirety, and I think so would Eloquence (because he wrote it?). It seems that NetEsq, Rednblu and RK have serious issues with it, and it would be great if they proposed specific additions, subtractions or modifications here. I can't quite figure out where Ed stands on this one (but that's a statement about me, not about him). I apologize if I missed anyone.
IMHO, we should strive to quickly agree on a final form for this introduction. The point is that anything that, once we agree to an introduction, any remaining material which is inconsistent with the introduction will have to be moved to another page! (The introduction can be changed later if the need arises, of course) This will help focus the discussion of the relation of this page to other pages. -- Miguel
Let me just say that I am, and have always been, perfectly willing to strive for compromise concerning the structure of the article. I, NetEsq, Mkmcconn and others arrived at the present compromise a few weeks ago in mutual consensus. It is only then that Rednblu joined the debate and tried to alter the structure so he can create an article about creationism that philosophically matches the article on atomism he has written. Nobody else has had any complaints about the structure at this point.
Since then, Rednblu has been tirelessly campaigning against "evolutionist censors", worked on unnecessary page forks and wasted everyone's time. Even NetEsq's main complain, as I understand it, was simply that the original theological meaning of creationism concerning the origin of souls was not given proper attention. It is only Rednblu who wants to fundamentally restructure the relevant pages, not to adopt the pages to the modern and traditional meanings of the word creationism, but to make them reflect his personal philosophical interpretation thereof.
Rednblu has been entirely unwilling to work for compromise and insisted on his preferred structure so far, while everyone else in the debate has worked to achieve consensus. His major contribution to the debate is to try to create "factions" who attack each other. He is trying to seed the kind of mistrust and paranoia that he needs to establish his point of view.
At this point, I think the most reasonable course of action for all concerned parties would be to ignore Rednblu and to simply carry on improving both the structure and content of the relevant articles. Don't play his game. —Eloquence 21:08, Aug 26, 2003 (UTC)
Personally, I think it's more important to fill in the details at places like Young Earth Creationism and panspermia. Also, rather easier... :) Martin 23:17, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
One question. Wouldn't it make more sense to define creationism at wiktionary:creationism? Is there a place on wiktionary for wikipedians to say "we're having a semantic dispute here - help!"? Martin 23:19, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I think we all agree that creation beliefs is for religous dogma, with no rebuttals. (Those 'crazy religious people' believe some astonishing things, ain't it a hoot? one might say.)
An article on creationism might focus on the Christian (esp. Anglo-American) assertion that God created the world AND the living creatures AND people, in contradiction to the evolutionist view. Whether or not this needs rebuttal is still an open question at Wikipedia as of late August 2003.
I believe that creation science or scientific creationism is the school of thought which:
Summing up, I daresay that we contributors
-- Uncle Ed 13:55, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I offer the following as an attempt to develop consensus on what the beginning and Introduction of the Creationism page might be.
I have cut out specific authors, such as [Author1]¸ and specific quotes, such as [Assertion1], to assist those who reject specific authors as being "creationist," for whatever reason. Fill in your own sources and quotes!
I suggest we edit this beginning and introduction between the container marks here on this TalkPage to minimize edit wars. Let's see what we have. Rednblu 21:04, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Creationism refers to a religious belief in creation by a divine agency, primarily:
This article discusses the second meaning.
For the various stories of how creation happened, see Creation beliefs.
For an exposition of the conflicts of creationism with science, see Creation science.
This article is specifically about the various creationism outlooks on theology and the duty that people owe to the divine agency that created them.
Creationism, attributing the origin of the universe to creation by a divine agency, is at least as old as the writings of [Author1] in [YY1] BC and [Author2] in [YY2] BC. Creationist scholars differ widely in characterizing the role of the divine agency in the affairs of this earth. Some creationists, such as [Author3], assert that the divine agency hears their daily prayer and will intercede in daily events to make things turn out right. Other creationists, such as [Author4], assert that the divine agency created the universe many aeons ago and has not intervened in events since that initial creation.
There are creationist scholars that follow many different religious beliefs, including Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, [Religion1], Christianity, and many others. Some creationists, such as [Author5], are highly critical of all organized religions and make assertions like [Assertion1] and [Assertion2]. And across that broad spectrum of religious beliefs, creationists over the centuries have developed many different views of theology and of the duty that people owe to the divine agency that created the universe and created them at least by starting the forces that gave them birth.
<<Second, Rednblu wants this article to discuss ethics (for lack of a better name), which I find amazing. >>
<<Third, I don't see why the essence of the broad spectrum paragraph cannot be incorporated into the current introduction. However, Rednblu makes no attempt to salvage any of the current content.>>
--
<<As Britannica correctly states, creationism is at its core a counterevolutionary movement.>>
The current intro says, based on a literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible ( Genesis). The word, "literal", has baggage that the article has difficulty sustaining from the start to the end. Mkmcconn \
Or, does it? I'm sorry to throw this twist in; on the other hand, there is ambiguity that I would like cleared up:
Which sense of "literal" is being chosen, 1, or 2? Mkmcconn 00:31, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Strangely enough for a religious believer, I find myself more allied with Eloquence on the issue of what "creationism" should be defined as. I think that in the last 100 years, creationism has come to carry the connotation of Bible-based Christianity, specifically Anglo-American, Protestant and even fundamentalist.
How we distinguish this current of thought from other religious views about Creation is an open question.
But there is a school of thought which has been battling the evolutionists (mostly in America) for many decades now, and what they believe in is possibly best identified as Creationism. I'm suggesting that religious beliefs that are not in a fight with evolutionists could be relegated to the creation beliefs article.
By the way, it might be interesting for our readers to distinguish between the ex nihilo or "out of nothing" variant of Creation dogma, and other religious views of Creation. Unfortunately, the only creation doctrine I know well is Unificationism, which denies ex nihilo (where God got the matter or energy is another story -- best put in creation beliefs, eh?). -- Uncle Ed 13:13, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I was just following the changes in intro till now, but today I happened to notice that there has been a major change in the body of the article for quite some time[ a few days?]- I think not by anyone who has been active in the Talk page. Wasn't there a discussion on what should come in creation beliefs and what should come in creationism?But now there is a lot of info on Creation beliefs such as Flat earth and Geocentrism. I am getting even more confused now. Are we including scientific beliefs/ theories also? I don't think we should. Then I would again like to bring in my Hindu angle:-)Just because in earlier times- such as the so-called Medieval ages-religion and science were intertwined, doesn't mean that scientific theories with limited knowledge of the universe should be confused as religious beliefs. In that case, before Copernicus' contribution or Galileo's famous quote-'It still moves', there is authentic evidence that the Indian scientist Aryabhatta had propounded a helio-centric theory, and most Indians know about it.But we w[c]ouldn't call it the Hindu theory of creation w[c]ould we? I am sure that there were some people in this discussion who didn't want creation beliefs discussed here, but now we seem to have that as well as scientific theories. KRS 13:26, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)
--
<<Whether it is a little or a lot it does not fit here- even one is a lot in this case. What I meant by lot was the whole section- flat earth, geocentrism, etc.,which comes just at the beginning.>>
I think the spectrum of beliefs between creationists and opponents of creationism is very relevant to this page. Perhaps I should clarify that by geocentrism, Isaak and Scott are referring to modern geocentrists. The rest of that section I can take or leave. I've moved it below for comment. Martin
<<I think the reason that this scale of beliefs is recounted here, is because it describes various degrees of belief about the "scientific relevance" of the very words of the Bible.>>
--
<<Creationism is an exercise in apologetics in the arena of science (not theology, and not science: religious people writing about science, and scientists writing about religion with the aim of harmonization or refutation of specific arguments, to legitimize a specific point of view)>>
--
<<Do you agree with this flow of thought?>>
Have changed the sequence so that 1] Meaning 2]Introduction 3]Defining creationism [appropriate after end of Introduction (about new meaning in USA) as well as informing about various types/ conflicting views]4]Spectrum of beliefs- continuing the various types 5] creationism and evolutionism.....- KRS 17:52, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Have changed first para by including all POVs- anyone can link anywhere. 1. already existing- general definition 2. added that it is predominantly used in Judaeo-Christian world- predominantly is not restrictive, other religions are not excluded. 3. already existing- specific usage to living forms[ what about the flat earth,geocentric beliefs the?]I have left it as it is, but depending on whether you want to add flat earth, etc., you can decide 4. already existing- theology- soul- etc., 5. added- modern day usage which is already there but elsewhere. As some experts in religion also feel that this meaning overrides most historical ones, this has to be included at the beginning.
So 5 POVs, any more?
Any problems?-- KRS 19:20, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Also merged Introduction para and Defining Creationism para- they have a continuity in terms of discussion of meaning. KRS 19:29, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)
<<Though creation beliefs exist in most religions, the term is more generally used in the context of the Judaeo-Christian world because of its origins.>>
Mkmcconn, your removal of 'as opposed to impersonal processes of nature' is correct. It was a sentence which was already there, I didn't notice the difference. But now your removal seems to be correct because when creationism theory/ belief would have first made its appearance it is unlikely that there would have been scientific theories of evolution. So there would not have been anything that Creationism would have consciously wanted to oppose. KRS 09:06, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I have come to the conclusion that further participation in the creationism page is a waste of time. It would appear the overwhelming majority of people find it acceptable to delete factual representation of creationism beliefs because they don't meet their personal goals. There has also been several attempts to show both sides of the issue and these have fallen into one of two patterns. Where creationism shows weakness there is very unprofessional exploitation at the expense of creationists, and where creationism shows strength there is deletion or what is worse, more unproven theories are given as rebuttal.
By the way, I can't help but point out to all the pseudo-scientists that populate this page; two unproven theories that reach the same conclusion means nothing. Were math to be approached in such a manner we would've put all the mathematicians in treatment long ago.
Jtocci 09:55, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Jtocci, I don't object to the removal of the "Introduction" label, but I do think that we should keep some kind of demarcation between the disambiguating preface, and the main body of the material where we descend into details. What would you suggest as an alternative? Mkmcconn 15:07, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I don't think we need it in the intro. On the one hand, it does clarify what material is covered at creationism (theology), but anyone who knows what traducianism will already know what we're covering there. So we can tighten the thing further, like this. Martin 15:57, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
The first two sentences in the preface are good,especially the way the links come naturally. But you[ I mean generically- I no longer know who is specifically making each small bit of edit:-)]
...seem to have removed the Creationism[ theology]way of linking so there are 4 words 'creationism is the doctrine' serving as link. Can something be done about that? Most important problem is that the last sentence comes too abruptly. You describe creationism, and suddenly come to the creation controversy- the reader is clueless about this sudden creation controversy[someone pointed out that this new phenomenon is predominantly American so others wouldn't understand the context].I think the substance of my last sentence in the earlier preface can be reworded/ rephrased according to how you see fit wherein there is a description of how the new creationists see a direct challenge in science to their creation beliefs. You can easily make this in one sentence. KRS 16:53, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
KRS, do you have an idea for how to thin out the excursus (in the west, in the US, among fundamentalists) in the preface? The briefer, the better, as long as it's clear, I think. Mkmcconn 17:12, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I think the preface is looking really good. KRS is doing a great job and we have Mkmcconn to make sure we get our Christian theology right.
Accordingly, I have moved on to the Introduction. I think the characterization of the controversy and its history is a little simplistic. I have distinguished between Darwin's books Origin of Species and the later Descent of Man. The first one was only really controversial among naturalists (Continental Europe clung to Lamarckism for a really long time), it left plenty of room for God's acts of creation, and did not threaten man's position as God-appointed Lord of Creation. It was the second book that suggested that men and apes had common descent, and left no room for a literal interpretation of Genesis.
I have rearranged the section slightly, and now it doesn't quite seems as coherent as before. Please feel free to hack at it!
I have said that the overview of the controversy is a little simplistic because, from the outset (around 1800) it involves much more than the origin of species. There were huge controversies regarding the age of the Earth, as geologists were beginning to discover that Earth had to be at least hundreds of thousands of years old, not just thousands.
The controversy seems to involve primarily evolution, but that's just scretching the surface. Both creationists and mainstream scientists have been aware from the start that there is an interplay among astronomy, geology, biology, and anthropology when it comes to the problem of origins, and that often evolution is not attacked on biological grounds, but by undermining some other science's "theory of origins". For this reason, I would be happier if the article did not stress evolution as the only point of contention.
-- Miguel
I have done some reorganisation. Hack away as you please. I want to get out of this:-)--- KRS 18:27, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)
--- I am pleased to find that despite my edit conflict with Martin - losing three paragraphs of changes-- that his edits and mine were quite close, and indeed his were improved over mine own. Thus I am satisfied. :)- 戴眩sv 19:09, Aug 30, 2003 (UTC)
Martin, you have added so much information on moderate creationism after disambiguating in the preface. Isn't it inappropriate?- KRS 04:36, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Martin points out - Do arguments against evolution support creationism? The answer - Nope. Arguments against evidence for biological evolution only could prove that the mechanisms described by scientists are not at play, and that some other mechanism is at play. That's it. These other mechanisms could (in theory) be some form of science we don't understand or know about; they could be a form of magick; they even could be the workings of the Greek and Norse pagan gods! But refuting evidence for evolution does not automatically give logical support for Christian, or any other form of, creationism. However, it seems that most Protestant Christians in the USA are pretty sure that evidence against evolution somehow is evidence for creationism, if not outright proof. Its not strictly logical, but its commonly held. RK 23:12, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I don't think we need it in the intro. On the one hand, it does clarify what material is covered at creationism (theology), but anyone who knows what traducianism will already know what we're covering there. So we can tighten the thing further, like this. Martin 15:57, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Martin, hiding links, as you did with traducianism, is generally a bad usability practice. It should be clear from a link title what page I'm going to end up on. —Eloquence 02:50, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)
In spite of Eloquence's sarcasm-[Good work -less coherent?:-)] and also because of his additions now, I think there is some amount of coherence now in the preface and in the historical overview- especially now that the last para of the historical overview outlines the current definition.I hope that no one tampers with it now without discussion on the talk page. But just to add some more controversy:-)[ Mkn..please note] now that the creationism[ theology] is built into the introduction, because the link has the same name as the page do you think people would follow such a link? [I am just raising this question from my objective point of view, objective because I have nothing at stake and I don't know any POV] Otherwise, I think one can move further to the next section.-- KRS 05:20, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
How about something more like this:
Mkmcconn 18:27, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I would like to thank everyone for laboring over the creationism article while I rested! It begins better, and reads more smoothly. Hats off to User:Rednblu who apparently abstained from the process for awhile.
One area of weakness remains: the treatment of intelligent design is little better than a rebuttal: it's almost entirely an argment against, and contains hardly any information about ID itself. The central thrust of ID, its contention that life shows "signs of having been designed" or its appeal to the concept of irreducible complexity, are both hard to find in the article as of Sept. 2nd 2003.
But otherwise, great work! -- Uncle Ed 17:59, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
The tone of the web site mentioned above is rather polemic. It doesn't do the whole debate a favor basically calling religious people liars, asking some rhetoric questions and then telling stories which may or may not be true. The other two references under evolution are of good quality. Isn't it possible to handle the whole stuff a bit less emotional? There are surely other good web pages. JackH 14:35, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I put the pro and con arguments in a table. They are mere outlines and need considerably more flesh. Neither pros or cons are really convincing unless more details are given. Who could help? -- JackH 10:42, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Eloquence seems to think still that the Arthur site is a valuable resource against creationism. I do not share this view. The article cites the page as if it is an authoritative thing and even does a generalisation about all creationists as beeing similar to Gish who is severly bashed. This is not decent style. In fact Eloquence has wiped out such a tiny remark of mine as that labels the Arthur page as an example of an anti-creationist page. Really weird. He depicted the remark as 'POV'. However Eloquence may have it his way. There are other things to do ;-)
describe your links (but on both sides). Martin 22:03, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)
OK, I'll drop the issue attributing the Jocye reference. Perhaps somebody other might pick this up.
A summary for those who didn't follow the discussion: Eloquence deleted my attribute to the Joyce reference which was worded as follows.
A particular example of an anti-creationist page.
Contrariwise he seems to think it is necessary to tell the readers that Joyce reference is a "critical review". In fact it is a primitive elaborate just bashing a creationist. The whole thing is cited in the wp article as if this is something authoritative. One would expect that we find the results of an effort of careful work not just hate-speech like the one above by Eloquence. If this is anti-creationism at it's best - well then .... :-) But why do we label this as critical? It is not so much the reference as such but the use of the reference which I think is not OK. Let's look at the individual arguments in the future.
--
JackH 14:02, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Would a Creationist or two, of differning views, please explin to me why, or if, Creationists believe that God didn't create the world complete with all of the scientific evidence to stimulate man, just as the many beautiful aspects of the world do so. It's surely within the capability of an omnipotent god to do so, so why isn't this answer used to eliminate the conflict between Creationism and science and have scientists be exploring the world god created for them to explore?
I am very curious to find out where the original question was first originated from. The fact remains, from a majority of Creationists POV, that God (AND please remember to capitalize this as it is a proper noun refering to a single entity; as apposed to god which could refer to any given entity other than the one in question - Jehovah) did in fact create the world full of scientific evidence to display His power. I guess the point here to be made is that God made man to serve Him and not vice-versa. With this in mind God created the earth and all that entails for His pleasure - Man being His greatest creation. "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let him rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." see Genesis 1:26 God did create man to rule over the earth. Actually, most translations would say God created man to be a caregiver - to watch over creation. A farmer takes care of his crop. A man takes care of his family. It is both a responsibility and, in a majority of the cases, an incredible joy. Therefor, it seems quite clear that the earth was created to "stimulate" us into learning more about the world around us. The problem that arises in the issue is not Creationism vs Science, but in fact Creationism vs Evolutionism. A point to ponder: Science is not without uncertainties. The problem arises when we as human beings want to be able to explain everything. How many stars are in the universe? What exactly is at the core of our planet? What are the other planets in our solar system composed of? Are there other inhabitabal planets in other systems? The fact is we do not know. The best we can offer is an educated guess based on what we do know. Call it what you want. Evolutionism is still a type of faith. It is a faith in the evolving process of creation. Creationism is the faith in a God who has the power to create a universe even down to the smallest atom. The term "literal" I would suggest to most Creatinists would mean God's creation of the earth in 6 days (please note that in Genesis God rested on the 7th day). Nhishands4ever
Argument number 6 on the evolutionist side gives a reference - [1]. Could somebody specifiy which link is meant? -- JackH 16:00, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I just tweaked the historical section again. I realize there is a disagreement in the interpretation of the facts, and the motivation of the actual events. So let's debate this ourselves in the talk page. Let me spell out my POV on this, so we can discuss it while I look for references to fully document it.
My idea is to frame the evolution/creation debate withing the larger question of the "problem of origins" (which should have its own page). Religious cosmologies are not limited to the origin of the species of living things, and humanity in particular, but include accounts of the origin of the Earth, and untimately the whole universe, more or less detailed depending on ow explicit the description of the actual cosmology is. Scientific theories of origins are similarly broad in scope.
Regarding the origin of the Earth (and the solar system), at the turn of the 19th century, Laplace put forth his theory of planetesimals. There is a famous anecdote in which Laplace recounts his theory to Napoleon, and remarks that God isn't a necessary hypothesis.
At around the same time, geologists were starting to discover that the Earth could not possibly be 6,000 years old, for a variety of reasons. See The Map That Changed the World: William Smith and the Birth of Modern Geology.
Also around this time, Lamarck's theory of evolution by inheritance of acquired characteristics was widely accepted, and there was no significant religious debate presumably because there was no concept of speciation, and more importantly, because nobody dared postulate a common origin for men and beasts.
When Darwin (himself an ordained minister) came along, the controversy was not with Christian cosmology, but with Lamarckism. This is actually the origin of the modern debate on macro/microevolution, on speciation as an observable phenomenon, etc.
It is only when Darwin applies his theory to humans that the religious debate starts in earnest. However, already in the 18th century Linnaeus had classified humans among the apes, but putting humans in a genus (homo) containing a single species. The point is that Darwin was not the first to challenge man's unique position in creation, but he was the first to do so in a way that was obvious to most people, which ignited the debate.
In the late 19th century, the geological dating of the Earth ran into trouble because it was impossible to explain where the sun could get the energy to shine for so long. The discovery of radioactivity solved this particular problem, dealing the final blow to young earth theories and also providing the basis for radioactive dating.
By the turn of the 20th century evolution is widely accepted, and the intensity of the religious debate is rather low. The creationist movement experiences a resurgence in the US around WWI. If I am not mistaken this coincides with the birth of the modern fundamentalist christians.
But the problem is that, by this time, the scientific debate has moved on. The fundamentalists were about 100 years late to influence the discussion of the scientific theories. Even their opposition to Darwin's theory is of a different character than the Victorian opposition.
Anyway, the current historical overview actually covers the prehistory of creationism (understood as an offshoot of fundamentalist christianity). A history of creationism since about 1915 is sorely lacking. -- Miguel
I feel that the whole issue of creationism cannot be discussed properly without considering what the Bible actually says about creation in the two stories at the beginning of the Book of Genesis. I hope that other readers and contributors will find this of interest and use. (MG)
I would like to reiterate my point above. Creationism cannot be discussed properly unless we consider what the Bible actually says in the two creation stories. Then, and only then, is it possible to consider critically how the two stories are interpreted by various parties, both Creationist and not.(MG)
I believe that it is important to list people who have changed their mind on the subject, as it can help people gain new insights and understand certain arguments. Both creationists and evolutionists certainly point to ex-creationists and ex-evolutionists to make their point. Of course, only reasonably important people where their change of mind is well-documented should be put on the respective lists. Glenn Morton, for example, is well known in creationist circles, Michael Denton is a published author, David Fasold an (in-)famous researcher who tried to find Noah's Ark, Edward Babinski an outspoken critic of creationism. I have removed Michael Bragg, who does not seem to have published much on the subject besides his initial explanation. —Eloquence 20:32, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I understand that there are different opinions regarding the length of the link section. Isn't it a WP policy to have a few well selected links for each article? The quality of the article does not improve if the link section grows and grows. Instead of answering questions the reader is referred to find out himself. It means a lot of work to maintain link sections and WP is meant to convey more stable information.
Eloquence: Do you really want me to add another round of let's say 12 links showing people who once were evolutionist and now are creationists. No, ridiculous! Please do you link work for example on www.dmoz.org or your own homepage. You put in some more links I do not want. What has this to do with vandlism? Plz answer? ~~----
If you are going to look at what people make of the Bible, it makes sense to look at what the Bible says before discussing how people interpret it. It is difficult to decide the ordering of the article, but putting interpretations of the Bible before looking at what the Bible says strikes me as putting the cart before the horse.
I notice that someone removed a sentence where I pointed out that many modern translations of Genesis effectively conceal one of the differences between the two stories with a non-literal translation of the word 'day' in Genesis 2:4b. What was the problem?
Also I noticed the sentence where I said that creationists have to explain the differences between the two creation stories, or ignore them was removed. Fair enough. If creationists can ignore this issue, there is nothing to explain!
Two Q&A's from the article:
10. " The "equation" for intelligent life is IL = information + matter + energy."
Answer - " For intelligent life to develop outside information is not necessary IL = matter + energy + a stochastic process "
11. "Nearly all mutations are destructive. Biochemical processes are reversible."
Answer - "The fact that we have life on earth cleary shows that evolution happend and that the gradual mutations and the selection process were sufficient."
Since this is a contentious issue, I'd appreciate comments before touching anything. Oh, and I'm sorry that the formatting of this question is rubbish, but I'm tired and I want to go to bed. Cheers. -- Onebyone 01:08, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Creationism properly does not belong under evolution. If evolutionists want an article to refute the claims of creationism, then there should either be a section under evolution or an article specifically titled “evolutionary answers to creationism” or similar title.
The article on creationism should be written by creationists, not evolutionists. Then there should be a section or a separate article written by creationists to refute claims by evolutionists. All articles should be interlinked so that a person has all sides of the issue available to him.
(Evolutionists should want to do this, then they could stand on the sidelines and amuse themselves as they watch creationists tear each other apart: young earth creationists do not consider old earth creationists true creationists, while old earth creationists often use the same vitriol as used by many evolutionists against young earth creationists, and so forth. But I doubt evolutionists could keep their hands off long enough to be amused.)
Based on my experience, I doubt this suggestion will be enacted upon, as evolutionists, in particular militant evolutionists, do not want an honest discussion where people can exercise critical thinking, rather they want a population who have been indoctrinated into only one side of the issue; their side.
kwr.
A quick look at creationism (theology) will show that creationism is properly a theological topic, whereas the present article is more aptly named "creation science" and/or "scientific creationism." Needless to say, Eloquence will disagree with my position, asserting that the titles "creation science" and "scientific creationism" are not NPOV. While I certainly understand the hostility Eloquence has towards creation scientists, I am baffled by his assertion that the titles I prefer are somehow not NPOV, particularly in light of the aptly-titled Wikipedia articles junk science and pathological science. Agreed, creation science is *NOT* actually scientific, but this position is argued forcefully in the body of this article. -- NetEsq 18:19, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I disagree. Creationism is theology. Sounds as though the content of Creationism (theology) may need to be merged into theis article or vice-versa. Scientific creationism is a title which doesn't make a lot of sense to me and creation science is a completely different field of study, that of the non-theological origin of the creation of the world. Jamesday 05:44, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Yes. There is nothing scientific about creationism. see philosophy of science. See this article for how creationists are either ignorant or dishonest. Anyway, yes, this should be moved to creation science, as that's self-identification. Howevre, it should make it absolutely clear in the first paragraph that the scientific community considers it to be pseudoscience, and dishonest. Duncharris 16:52, May 8, 2004 (UTC)
I think it is fair enough to use whichever term Scientic Creationists are happy to apply to themselves, and to point out in the introduction that non-creationsists dispute the "scientific" part - just as in "Christian Science".
Rmalloy 00:09, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
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The frequent use of the pejorative term "fundamentalist" and the serious-toned grouping of creationists with fringe "flat earthers" and "geocentrists" (taken from an anti-creation source) makes the article clearly NOT NPOV and shows a subtle effort to create a straw man. -- Pollinator 18:59, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Can someone split this page to a manageable size and archive the older section?
Is there any interest or any point to my adding a response to the claims of irreducible complexity? Skeetch 04:45, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)
Is it possible to separate creationism from creation science? -- Miguel 21:36, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)
If you have to split, do it by section:
Leave a summary in place in the main article of each of these sections. See the country pages as an example. —Eloquence 22:47, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)
Wikipedians may be interested in the article that I've just submitted on the Ussher-Lightfoot Calendar, beloved of Young Earth Creationists. - ChrisO 00:44, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
A recent edit added "Creationists and Darwinists have a different ontology, each making a fundamental assumption which is outside the realm of science." This statement is not backed up later in the edit, though. Creationists must necessarily make the assumption that a god exists. This can be seen as an assumption that is "outside the realm of science". I don't see what non-scientific assumption the darwinists are making, though? A further point to note on this edit is that it reverts my change to the sentence " Materialistic Evolutionism [...] accepts the theory of evolution, but denies the existence of any divine agency." I changed the "but" to "and". The "but" implies the POV that accepting the theory of evolution is usually done while believing in the existence of a god. The "and" on the otherhand just states that they hold both positions without implying anything. -- snoyes 19:57, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I ( snoyes) moved the following here, as there is no evidence given that this statement is factually correct.
" Adolf Hitler was a believer in the doctrines of Thomas Malthus which also heavily influenced early evolutionists."
Linking Hitler to Malthus to Darwin in this manner seems kind of silly. First of all, this is the first time I ever heard that Hitler was directly affected by Malthus. Wagner? Yes. Nietzsche? Yes. Malthus, an English economist and so forth? Hitler usually attributed his influences to Germans. Secondly, Malthus's ideas applied to humans whereas Darwin took those ideas and fixed them on animals. And Malthus merely fleshed out economic ideas which were prevalent in his day and shared by most economists of the day - and are still more or less shared by modern economists as far as I can see. I've removed this sentence, please cite where Hitler said this if you want to put it in. -- JohnWoolsey 11:25, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)
A few days ago I rewrote ONE section of the article to try and give a little expression of the Creationist viewpoint (which is supposedly what the page is about). I pretty much left alone the BULK of the page which is primarily an expression of anti-creationist viewpoints. Since then the anti-creationists have been progressively removing this tiny bit of creationist viewpoint, and replacing it with still more anti-creationist viewpoints. POV is running rampant here. The article would better be retitled 101 reasons why creationists are all extremist Neanderthals. I've removed some un-fair and un-balanced proselytizing and pejorative edits by an anti-creationist and restored some of the key points of creationist belief. This page is about Creationism, folks. Apparently many think the only expression allowed on the Creationism page is that of anti-Creationists, and key points of Creationist viewpoints are not to be allowed. I've kept the edit by JohnWoolsey, as an explanation was given on the talk page, and we can revisit this later. Pollinator 17:16, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I'm listing this page on Cleanup. It's some of the worst POV I've ever seen. silsor 00:26, Feb 12, 2004 (UTC)
I'd also like to either remove the Christian-centrism, or move this article to Christian creationism. silsor
What do you think about capitalizing? Personally I think capitalizing Creationism and related terms every time they show up is silly, not to mention clashes with the intro in which they are decapitalized. silsor
I have seven pages of archives to read. Moan. silsor
After having read the article and all of this commentary, it increasingly seems to me like it's trying to do too many things at once. I would actually suggest a total rewrite, replacing it with a much shorter article that simply describes how the term refers to an American political controversy without going into too much detail about the arguments of each side. I don't think Wikipedia is the place for political debates.
As suggested by other above, the religious aspects of the controversy can be addressed at creationsim (theology) and controversial aspects of evolutionary biology can be addressed at evolution (controversy). I'll be happy to write a draft of the revised article if others think it's a good idea. Jeeves 23:36, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I'm working on a rewrite of this page, to simplify it, express more accurately what creationism is, examine the driving forces of creationism, and bring it to a more NPOV. I do think the page is needed here. And it needs to have some input from wikipedians who have some understanding of creationism, not just from those who simply want to attack it. Pollinator 02:14, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Science is not about "controversy", or motive, it's about evidence. Those who want to attack creationism understand it perfectly well. " Geology shows that fossils are of different ages. Paleontology shows a fossil sequence, the list of species represented changes through time. Taxonomy shows biological relationships among species. Evolution is the explanation that threads it all together. Creationism is the practice of squeezing one's eyes shut and wailing 'does not!'" - Ialdaboath 02:30, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I suggest that any rewrite of this page narrow the defintion of creationism to Young and Old Earth Creationism. Theistic evolution and Deism are not forms of creationism, as per any the definition of creationism that I have ever come accross or even the definition of creationism in the first sentence of this article. The most common definition of creationism is a belief in a literal interpretion of Genesis. This would of course include YEC. OEC and Day Age would also apply as the literal interpretation still stands except for the length of the biblical day. Creation science is the effort to prove that creationism is factually accurate through science. So I believe that the article should define creationism and its subsets as it does today, then move on to the history as it does today, but focus more on the history of creationist though, notable creationists of history and the evolution :-) of creationism over time. Comparison of Genesis 1 and 2 and treatment of the documentary hypothesis should be ommited. This is an entry about creationism, not textual criticism or criticism of creationism. For NPOV the article should not delve into arguments either for or against the factuality of creationism, except for summaries of tje arguments of noted creationists. In that same vein, the article should not explicity or implicity try to refute creationism or try to diminish it as a worldview.Perhaps a singular link to a page that can refute said arugments. The interpretation of Genesis section should be changed to reflect the different positions of the main variants of creationism, YEC and OEC and its variants. There should be a history of creation science pre Darwin, then contemporary to Darwin, finally in the years since Darwin culminating with Edwards v. Aguillard, the rise of the ID movement and recent theschool board debates in Kansas, Ohio, Alabama etc. Common Descent and the age of the Earth should be briefly treated, as well as the distribution of creation. However, I would simply create timelines of each worldview for comparison and not offer any judgements on the validty of any of them. That way the reader can simply learn what each world view is and compare them. That would elminate needing sections on common descent, age of the earth, origin of the earth and humans, etc. Creationism in public schools can be covered in the history as described above.The philosophy section should probably just be removed. Then I would have a list of notable creationist and a brief summary of their position. The sections including and after Arguments against evolution should probably be edited down to the bare essentials. There need not be refuations of each creationist argument in tabular form. Most of the sections after this point are clearly POV and should be either removed altogether or redacted down to NPOV.-- JPotter 06:56, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Stating unequivocally that Genesis contains two creation accounts is POV. Most Christians I know believe that these "two accounts" are both the exact same story, with no contradictions. Things people see as "contradictions" we see as different details that were either focused on or left out. IMO, Genesis is a continuous narrative; the creation is described in general, then a summary statement is made and the author goes into more detail about the creation of man.
The list of events this article gives from the "two accounts" aren't contradictions. For example, the fact that the "first account" mentions the Sabbath and the second doesn't is not a contradiction; it just means that the author already mentioned it and saw no reason to repeat it at that point. The fact that the "second account" begins with the creation of man is not a contradiction; it means the author already described the creation of the universe and the earth and is now focusing in detail on the formation of man. (In fact, if you'll bother to read it, the supposed "second account," that uses YHWH Elohim begins in verse 4 by summarizing the creation of everything, describing the state of the world, and then digging in in more detail into the creation of man.)
Statements like "This is important because many people are not aware that the Book of Genesis contains two distinct versions of the story of creation," come off as saying, "Some people are so stupid that even though they read Genesis over and over again in their religious studies they've never noticed that there are contradictions." You just can't state as fact that there are two accounts here. You need to contextualize it by saying many people SEE it as two accounts.
Now that I've looked a little lower in the article, I see that it does talk about how these can be harmonized. But it still isn't right to begin with a "statement of fact" that there definitively ARE two accounts here; that is only somebody's opinion. And it's even worse to have the statement about "some people aren't aware of it." I'm fully aware that some people see this different from me; the fact is that I disagree with them, not that I am unaware.
Jdavidb 14:33, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Quite so, the statements in this regard should be NPOV. There is more general information on the proposition that there are two creation accounts in Genesis (specifically Gen. 1:1-2:3, "P," and then from 2:4-25, "J") at documentary hypothesis.
Fire Star 15:33, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I think the words creationism and creationist are loaded words. When used by scientists they are almost always meant derogatorily. As such, while an article called creationism might be appropriate, discussing the viewpoints of people who might fit into the category using words that are derogatory is certainly not.
Something easier to fix is to change the term creator God to divine creator. I find the second term less jarring. Ezra Wax 16:29, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Can someone provide the basis for the opening definition? I personally do not consider myself a creationist, nor do I think of God as a "first cause." But this definition seems anachronistic to me. In the United States, at least, I would bet that 99.99999% of the time a person refers to "creationism" or "creationists" they are referring to the belief that God created the different species; a view that is articulated expressly in opposition , or as an alternative, to Darwin's theory of the evolution of species through natural selection. When Aristotle (and later, St. Thomas, and even later, Mortimer Adler) articulated the argument of God as first cause, they were not engaging Darwin. Moreover, I know many people who accept Darwin's theory and believe that God created the universe. I am not saying they are right, and I am not inviting any argument on whether their position makes sense or not. I am just questioning whether this is an accurate definition. I don't think it is, and I have read a good deal about creationism, creation science, Darwin, and theology. If I am missing some major literature or debates, please let me know what and where they are! Slrubenstein
Is there any country except for the US where there is a sizeable creationist lobby, or where creationism has political support? I think we may safely say that US creationism is considered "weird" by the vast majority of Western Europeans. David.Monniaux 20:14, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The organization "Answers in Genesis" is based in Australia.
I think it's appropriate to have a blue box to link these articles together. Hopefully, that'll help with the naming disputes. I'll put it at {{msg:creationism}}. Feel free to edit it appropriately. Duncharris 18:05, May 2, 2004 (UTC)
This article is absolutely riddled with bias. Clearly the main contributors are people who loathe Creationism and probably Christianity in general; and that's unfortunate. Too bad the hate mongers win again. *shrugs* -- User:66.81.134.138
For evolution, we have started a list of popular science books on evolution. I think it would be good to have a similar list for creationism (or " non-evolutionary explanations for the diversity of life"), and we can link to it from the evolution list. I didn't notice any such list in this page. Is there one, and would anyone want to start a list similar to List of popular science books on evolution? Thanks. AdamRetchless 17:48, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I have rewritten that article from a redirect to evolution into an expanded dicdef of the word as I believe it is used by creationists as a general for us "evil atheists". Can someone check that that is what they think of it? Dunc_Harris| ☺ 00:00, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Nitpick here, but since when is Australia a Western nation?
What's with this?
Here I thought most scientists reject Creationism because of the overwhelming PHYSICAL evidence for an ancient universe and evolution over a long period of time, contrary to the creationist account. Obviously we can't say that "this is true" in a NPOV creationism article, but why assume this kind of insulting reasoning on behalf of "many scientists"? Is there any evidence to back up the claim that scientists "reject Creationism" only because gods can't be observed? -- User:130.91.65.76
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You are right. That paragraph is just another evolutionist fantasy without empirical justification. --- Rednblu 19:28, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The Creationism page continues to manifest the evolutionist syndrome of ignoring fact, inventing history, and censoring the attempts of the creationists to state what is true about Creationism.
A religion-neutral Wikipedia community would allow the Creationism page to develop the format of the Evolution page in stating the Theory of Creationism, with perhaps a few paragraphs at the end summarizing the opposition's rebuttals.
The opening section is nothing but an evolutionist tract and does not belong on Creationism. A religion-neutral definition might begin as follows by recognizing historical fact. [7]
Furthermore, why is it the evolutionists keep refusing to face the facts about Origin of Species? For example, the following sentence and similar prevarications continue to come back, recur, and revert all over Creationism.
That sentence is simply not true. Charles Darwin very carefully excluded the word evolution from the first five editions of Origin of Species. You can make a word search through the entire text of the First Edition of Origin of Species [8] and find that the word evolution does not appear even once. The creationists keep correcting this evolutionist distortion, but in Wikipedia as in most of the civilized world, the evolutionist censors win over fact. There is no use in even correcting the evolutionist distortions of fact; it is a waste of time. --- Rednblu 19:28, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
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Let's see if we could agree to a religion-neutral means of determining if there is such a thing as a "Theory of Creationism"? So let's look back in time to an explanation that was not in the modern sense "scientific" but was an explanation commonly adopted by mainstream scientists at that time.
Suppose that the explanation of phlogiston was commonly accepted by mainstream scientists in 1674 just about the time of J. J. Becher; no doubt J.J. wished that were so in 1674. :)) And let's suppose that for a hundred years nobody really made a test of the phlogiston idea--at least nobody made a test that would satisfy the scientific method. And let's suppose that in 1774 the Right Reverend Joseph Priestley, who definitely believed in God and preached God and preached Phlogiston, discovered oxygen and mistakenly called it "dephlogisticated air." And let's suppose that it was not until 1778 that Antoine Lavoisier devised an experiment that could make the phlogiston idea a verifiable assertion. And let's suppose that up until 1778, the mainstream scientists accepted the phlogiston idea as correct. Would you still assert that there was no Phlogiston Theory? Would you still contend that "there's no such thing as a Phlogiston Theory" merely because the fundamentalist preachers of today still believe it and preach it contrary to all empirical evidence and contrary to the efficiency principle of Occam's Razor? --- Rednblu 20:30, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure what relevance this has; it's of historical interest, sure. An article with a title of "Theory of Creation" has a scientific connotation, that's what I mean. There's not a scientific Creation (*sigh*) theory that stands up to all known facts. If someone called something a theory in the past because it was a theory based on the level of knowledge at the time, then yes, as a historical footnote you could call it that. But there the word has a different meaning, being that it's understood it's a historical usage. Not sure how you're relating the two, but there it is.
I agree with DJ below, just tell it how it is. -- DanielCD 21:41, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This article has got way out of hand. When people come to an article about a subject, they want to learn about that subject. The bulk of this article should be therefore about what Creationism is, and what Creationists believe. I suggest we try to do this without interrupting the flow every few lines with an intejection about why they are wrong. DJ Clayworth 20:45, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
A few changes: deleted the line "it's just a matter of calling different things by different names" as this statement is nonsensical. Here I added some clarifying comments. Deleted "so the relevance is unclear to evolution advocates" as this is wrong. Clarified. --- User:12.64.234.26 22:36, 18 Aug 2004
Also the example of Streptococcus pneumoniae is not a "destructive mutation" as it has aided the bacteria's survival. It may be destructive for us, but obviously not for the little bacterium.
Wow how does that happen? I make some additions, check back later and it's gone. History shows the change by my IP, 12.64.234.26, to be the current version yet it's the old version that comes up and there is no record of the deletion of my additions. Are there two, mirror wikis, is there a shadow editor or is it just a delayed wiki thing?
This is a great topic to work out a method and style for dealing with controversial topics. Any encyclopedia must include controversial topics. The alternative points of view are essential attributes of a controversial topic.
Controversies may contain more that two points of view. The development of the alternative points of view could be quite extensive (beyond the ability of one author or beyond the ability to be comprehended in one scrolling page).
The controversy would, presumably, be settled were it not for the continued introduction of new facts, findings and conclusions.
How does one maintain a NPOV while conveying accurately the best of the alternative points of view (APOV?)? Can the hypertext capability of a Wiki help organize the ever expanding set of facts and findings?
Here is a suggestion: A page might define a particular thesis, for example: evolution – specific differences between individuals in a species are more likely to survive and be reproduced due to preferential success in an environment (or whatever the best worded definition might be).
This would be elaborated with the underlying elements, e.g., There is a method of creating differences between individuals (e.g., mutation) Differences that help survival are sustained and differences that hurt survival fall away (e.g., natural selection) Banana slugs and humans are equally evolved since both exist in the current environment (actually, Banana slugs might be better suited to the environment around Northern Calif than humans since the slugs do not need electricity for energy, cars for mobility, etc.) <= it’s a joke
The individual elements of the thesis would be supported by evidence. Evidence would be the specific, verifiable facts that anyone on either side would agree (e.g., Java Man consists of four bone fragments). The interpretation (e.g., the artist’s depiction of Java Man based on the fragments) would be linked to – but not same as – the evidence. This allows multiple interpretations of the evidence along with arguments supporting the interpretation (perhaps citing additional evidence).
Each piece of evidence would likely be worth its own Wikipedia page.
There might also be a page (or more) dealing with the validity of the evidence. Whether the method used to produce the evidence is consistent with the claims (e.g., whether the Earth’s environment actually matched the simulation).
Authors may connect various papers or other resources that support the claims/evidence.
The NPOV enforcement would be to eliminate labels, e.g., “fundamentalist”, “creationist”, “materialist” etc. Labels add nothing to the evidence itself or to the logical interpretations. Labels serve as shorthand to evoke responses. That is not useful.
There could be point-counterpoint. The NPOV (or APOV) enforcement would require that the adherents to a point of view be the ones to characterize their view – not the adherents to other points of view (e.g., creationism should be defined and defended by “creationists” not by others; the others could quote the “creationist’s” material; over simplification or pejorative synopsis would be disputed).
Whadayathink?
Examples:
"macroevolution is the accumulation of enough microevolutionary changes to create a distinct species" Imprecise. It is not quantity of changes which determines a new species but whether the original and offshoot interbreed.
"With more time and evolutionary pressures the differences will compound, producing the wide variety of species we see today" This statement makes too big a leap from a single species example to everything we see today.
"However, creationists treat macroevolution with considerably more skepticism and suggest that if it occurs at all—which some deny" I would say most of those who call themselves creationists deny macro-evolution.
"This makes it impossible for the organism to change beyond certain limits" does not state what makes it impossible.
You mention the panda bear, however while it is a good example of evolution it misses the specific point relayed in the use of the example of the red (or lesser) panda. Here is a species that is classified, for various reasons as a member of the bear family yet which has acquired so much change that that classification is doubted by creationists.
The statement: "To a creationist, these three bears are all examples of different but similar kinds" is demonstrably false since the polar and brown bears can still breed (though only in captivity). Creationism usually limits a "kind" to a breeding group thus they would have to acknowledge that they were originally one "kind" yet a radical divergence has taken place. One which allowed the polar bear to adapt to a completely different environment. I will mention that they can interbreed.
"The similarities between the polar and the brown bears are taken to mean that the environments they were created for and the tasks they were intended to do were relatively similar". Actually there's a lot of difference between the polar and brown bears and their respective environments. Here's a creationist site that breaks from the usual and calls the differences dramatic [10].
Deleted by your edit are good specific examples of micro -> macro evolution, i.e. turtle/tortoise, and hyena/aardwolf. Also this explanatory sentence "Live examples such as these probably constitute the upper limit of obvious to anyone change since any variation more than this would likely result in a species that would appear sufficiently unlike the original that there would be automatic dispute as to whether the two ever were related. In other words, the claim might then be made by evolution deniers that they were "probably two separate creations that just happen to look somewhat similar" should remain.
Is there a link to the Streptococcus pneumoniae mutation expending more resources? I think though that your paragraph is an improvment upon mine in general and I will leave it. Also I am keeping your links.
I do not think that I am out of line on the npov.
Apologies for the length.
First, if two species cannot interbreed they are definitely not the same species. In that way you can positively exclude as related or not many "kind" scenarios. In the determination of a species first and foremost considered is the ability to reproduce. But since it is difficult or impossible to determine which of every closely related species can interbreed other factors are considered such as amount of change etc because after so much change it is assumed that the reproductive compatibility of the two animals will have changed as well. Also just because two species look alike doen't mean they are related, it could simply be a case of convergent evolution. I don't think any serious scientist would limit his definitions of relatedness based on looks alone if sexual compatibility can be determined. Mate-recognition is tied to ability to breed. As for those which reproduce without meiosis or mitosis comparison of their DNAs is enough to establish relation as you can't get much closer than clones. Phylogenetic means use apparent differences to determine which how closely or far apart related species are. As Mayr says it "simply uses the degree of morphological difference as an indication of the underlying degree of reproductive isolation" [11]. Reproductive isolation, he says is "primary". He also says "To repeat, certain individuals are part of a certain species not because they have certain characteristics in common but they share these characteristics because they belong to a single reproductive community, a biological species". Reproductive ability doesn't mean that two different "kinds" of animals interbreed, but just have the ability to. In the article I stated "macroevolution is nothing more than the accumulation of enough microevolutionary changes over time that the offshoot no longer can or will breed with the original". I will change my statement that "this is the usual defintion of a new species" to "basic definition of a new species".
About how many creationists reject macroevolution I didn't find a specific poll, but no doubt someone has done one. I did find this: 85% of Americans consider themselves Christian http://www.gallup.com/poll/indicators/indreligion2.asp 81% want creation to be taught in public schools http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr990830.asp. The ICR brand of creation prominently fighting for inclusion in the schools rejects macroevolution. I did not look at the Gallup site as you need a subscription but accept them as stated.
Your paragraph that begins "What makes macroevolution impossible to the creationist", I agree with. But just because they hold these ideas doesn't make them right. I am merely showing, in a general discussion of macro/micro evo that this immutability of species notion has another side.
"But you did seem to be POV to me saying things like 'clear-cut examples' and 'significant positive change has plainly occurred' is very supportive of evolution." Yes I made these statements because they are true. The polar bear I've already touched on, the tortoise left the water to become land going, even in deserts, an environment that would kill a turtle in no time. The aardwolf has become an insectivore comlete with long sticky tongue and decreased dentition [12]. These are significant changes. Of course faced with this creationists are saying that, for example, the "original bear kind" must have been created with all the attributes that went into making up all the different species of bear that have ever existed incorporated in their genes, and then later on these delineated into specific species. So the genes that make up a polar bear was present in the first bear (even though God supposedly created the earth as a uni-seasonal tropical planet). Says Answers in Genesis "virtually all the necessary information was already there in the genetic makeup of the first bears, a population created by God with vast genetic potential for variation" [13]. This desperate, last ditch stance really doesn't deserve a response. In a moment of honesty a writer at ICR said "The Polar Bear, however, provides evidence for more dramatic change", "These morphological changes seem to me to go beyond the small, microevolutionary changes which are widely cited in creationist literature", "At the very least, a study of these members of the Ursus group suggests that creationists need to be more positive about larger-scale adaptations (with the appearance of design) than generally appears to outside observers" [14].
Perhaps where you're, IMO, slipping up is, as you state "it's easiest to avoid POV yourself when you present both sides' arguments as their respective and equally valid POVs." The problem is, according to all of mainstream science outside fundamentalism, creationism is not equally valid. However I have qualified my comments with "For the majority of biological scientists", "Given enough time and micro-changes at the genetic level , say evolutionists"
>I agree that we should represent their side as they see it, or let them do it themselves, however we are doing a disservice to others if we let the matter rest there. I certainly hope that I was not being an asshole.
>Absolutely. On the other hand, creationists have no lack of a voice to air their opinions and the deep pockets to back that up. I do not own the article and anyone is free to change it as they see fit. For a moment though, lets change to topic from evolution to flat earthism, or from astronomy to astrology. Would we be bending over as much to attempt to accomodate these points of view? Remember creationists are trying to force their dogma into public school science classes, yet they don't even have a theory.
>At some point in their past polar bears and brown bears for some reason ceased to breed. At this point they became a separate species. As you probably know it's called reproductive isolation. Subsequently the polar bear acquired lots of interesting adaptations to its environment. But they were a new species before the acquisition of these features. The fact that they can still breed is amazing and very unusual and bound to end relatively soon.
>Which is by far the great majority.
>Or we can include the word "Fundamentalist" creationists, which would make it true, and since they are the ones making all the stink. Feel free though to make your change.
>No doubt. It's true nonetheless.
>I hope that I haven't been. I have confined these comments to the talk page.
I have attempted to clarify the species question.
I do think my edits are fine and right as is, however I am finished with my contribution and will leave it in the hands of the editors. Have at it. Nice chatting with you. User:12.64.229.68 -How's that?
Whoops! hold on, my last edit has disappeared. Will attempt to recreate.
Okay, restored the lost passage. As I stated at the time I have attempted to clarify the species question. So long.
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I missed a point. Your statement "However, creationists (all? most? some?) treat macroevolution with considerably more skepticism and suggest that if it occurs at all—which most deny" is inconsistant.
As to your latest edit, I still find it imprecise and wandering. Also statements such as "Evolutionary scientists explicitly reject the notion that a creature is limited by its kind" is in error since the designation of types of animals as "kinds" is not recognized by mainstream scientists. Also I strongly suspect that it is not "possible for the red panda to interbreed with the brown bear or the polar bear".
Page archived. It was 76Kb. -- 141.211.62.118 05:49, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Should all of the See also links be capitalised? I have already changed them before but someone keeps changing e.g. gap creationism to Gap Creationism, young Earth creationism to Young Earth Creationism, day-age creationism to Day-Age Creationism etc. I was trying to follow /Archive 8#Capitalisation but now I see that there is no consensus at all and that issue needs to be discussed again. Rafał Pocztarski 00:19, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The capitalisation across this article is very inconsistent and keeps changing quite chaoticly (not without my own fault of course) so I suggest making a short list of words to capitalise. If anyone thinks “creationism” should always be capitalised, please add it to the list below before changing the article, so everyone could discuss it and agree upon a common, consistent spelling. Thanks. Rafał Pocztarski 16:45, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
<< User:Rfl subtlely inserted the following reader-invisible comment into the Creationism page, I am resisting the temptation of inserting a response similarly into the hidden code of the Creationism page, and I am taking the liberty of cutting that comment below, celebrated in green here for the historical record.>>
In looking through the historical record at the competition between creation and evolution in Darwin's day, I was impressed by Thomas Huxley's 1887 account of how Origin of Species provided the first explanation that in Huxley's view was a better explanation than creation. Huxley describes the sense in which he rejected creation as an explanation.
Huxley describes his similar rejection of the explanations of the evolutionists prior to Darwin.
Furthermore, any self-respecting religion-neutral anthropologist, such as Robert L. Carneiro, Curator of the American Museum of Natural History, would classify creation and evolution as mere successive stages of incomplete but improving explanations in a universe where there is no God to assist the women and men who attempt to discover the truth of their origins. [17]
From all of the above, I suggest that it is more accurate to define creationism as an explanation rather than a belief. After all, the survival of the belief derives from the usefulness of the belief, and a primary use of creationism is explaining how we all got here. According to Thomas Huxley, until Origin of Species, creationism was as good an explanation as evolutionism. And for the majority of American voters who cannot understand the evolutionists' explanations, creationism is a better explanation than evolutionism even yet today. [18] --- Rednblu 16:08, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
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"Personal bias"? Nope. I have bet on Darwin's explanation, myself.
In fact, I have a personal interest in getting more "creationists" to understand the extent to which their various hungers, including hungers for sugar, salt, burned fat, raiding Iraq, and gender bias are inherited hungers from the ancestors of the chimpanzees.
You propose a hypothesis: That the source of the political power of "creationism" is "belief."
I quote to you an opposing standard hypothesis from religion-neutral anthropology:
So I pose to you this question: How could we determine empirically whether the political power of "creationism" derives from
Would you agree that before 1850, creationism was an explanation founded on available knowledge and evidence? --- Rednblu 19:01, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
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If we would pattern the beginning of the Creationism page after the Phlogiston theory page, we would have the following.
That beginning sentence would at least be accurate--and defensible. In contrast, the current first sentence is indefensible. It would similarly be indefensible to define Evolution as
That is not what evolution is! Evolution is a whole complex of observations, conjectures, and progressively better explanations for the observations. Now, someone might believe that some version of evolution is more accurate than some other explanation. But the belief is forever separate from what is believed--even for the "creationists."
And the evolutionists will not let the creationists make a clear statement of what the "discredited hypothesis" is. --- Rednblu 21:09, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
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Though I personally think that creationism as at [21] is a discredited hypothesis, I concede that you make a very important point--whether creationism is a discredited hypothesis is the "whole point of this discussion." And we should not hope to prove one way or the other here on this Talk:Creationism page. Here, we should be figuring out how to turn the Creationism page into a coherent presentation of what "creationism" is. Would you agree? --- Rednblu 05:30, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
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What you say makes sense to me. But let's wait to get discussion on this Talk:Creationism page from other points-of-view before we do anything. Okay? Meanwhile, what do you think of the proposed split of the Creationism page that many of us have been discussing in various forms for the last couple of years? --- Rednblu 14:46, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I have put back a summary of the creation accounts in Genesis. To discuss rationally what creationists believe it is imperative to consider what the Bible actually says. I realise that what I have written may be contentious but it needs to be done. Michael Glass 03:23, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Text copied from logical subpage to fix broken link and to restore continuity of the dialog. --- Rednblu 17:16, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The creation accounts in Genesis are already described in the Creation beliefs page. Why are the creation accounts in Genesis repeated in the proposed Creation accounts in Genesis page? --- Rednblu 05:34, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This was added back as I have evidence of the existence of believers who are not creationist. If the intent was to say "if you do not accept creationism, you are not a true christian" then this is a No true Scotsman logical falacy, and contrary to Matt 7:1-5 and Rom 14:4. Lets leave the statement in. KeyStroke
<<Creationism is the usually Christian belief that the universe and all life were created by the deliberate act of God as described in the Bible.>>
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You stated: "both Roman Catholics and Protestants derive from Saint Augustine" and I cannot agree with your assumption. The way Protestants started was with Martin Luther who is quite well known for "scripture only". My point being that the Protestants I know are lothe to follow the writings of any Roman Catholic Saint, and prefer to limit their basis for belief only on the KJV Bible. I have never heard of Plato espousing any creation story. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I think it is safe to say that most Creationists get their understanding of the creation story from the Bible and not by reading Plato. The point being that, even if you are right (which I do not conceede), it is not Plato nor is it Augustine from which most creationists get their understanding of the story of creation. Therefore the statement in the "definition" is true... most people who are creationists get their belief from the Bible.
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You stated: <<The way Protestants started was with Martin Luther who is quite well known for "scripture only". My point being that the Protestants I know are lothe to follow the writings of any Roman Catholic Saint, and prefer to limit their basis for belief only on the KJV Bible.>>
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Lets take the sentence that seems to bother you so much (I am guessing, here, as to which one really bothers you) and break it down into its constituant parts to find out where you disagree:
If none of your answers are a categorical "No, absolutely not." then I have to conclude that the sentence (put back together) is not false. If the sentence is not false, then it is accurate and should stay. Lets not turn this into a battleground for our different denominations. I think it would benefit all who take the name of 'christian' to at least agree together what creationism is, whether or not we agree to the ideas. This shouldn't be an effort to claim ownership of the idea by one denomination or another. KeyStroke
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I have no interest in showing which creationism is right; I am interested only in putting together a reasonably accurate Creationism page that faces historical fact. Let's start from the last section of your analysis.
<<* .. as described in the Bible.
First of all, I have no objection to that part of the opening definition being true--if the historical record would show that "creationism" was limited to the creation beliefs described in the Bible. However, for example, Plato in his Timaeus sometime around 350 BC wrote a creationism hypothesis that historically was even more influential than any of the Bible versions; Plato wrote the following.
(Here is the on-line text of Plato's Timaeus if you want more details.) [22]
If you read the Catholic Church's expositions of creationism, you will find that the detailed, logically developed opinions of Plato, Thomas Aquinas, and Augustine on creationism were more important than the sketchy and logically inconsistent material in the Bible. Here is a link to the Catholic Encyclopedia's article on "creationism", for example; you can see on that Catholic "creationism" page that Plato, Thomas Aquinas, and Augustine are quoted more often than is the Bible. I am not saying that Catholic "creationism" is the right creationism. I think all the variations I have seen of the creationism hypothesis have been proven as wrong as the phlogiston theory. However, I am interested in getting a Wikipedia Creationism page that accurately reflects the various stages in the evolution of the various creationism hypotheses. Wikipedia should not be proselytizing for any particular hypothesis; Wikipedia should just report accurately what happened. --- Rednblu 05:06, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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And that is where we disagree. Wikipedia shouldn't be irrelevant history (assuming your version of that history is true, which I do not grant). It should be a description of what creationism is, now. I know several creationists and none of them initialy got their belief from (as you put it) "'the Catholic Church's expositions of creationism'", not even the Catholics I know. Granted, the Catholics I know didn't get it by reading the Bible for themselves either, but instead got it from their parents, or the other parishioners, or from the pulpit. The important thing I am trying to say is that none of them read "'the Catholic Church's expositions of creationism'" either. If I were to choose between giving a history lesson, and telling people where holders of creationism initially get their belief, I think it is more informative to do the later. For most creationists the source of their belief comes from the Bible. Go into the history of the idea in a later part if you want to (I still don't think you are right in your version, but I won't contest it in a later section). Just do not hijack the initial definition for your agenda. KeyStroke
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Do you seriously think that the creationists of today derive their ideas from the text of the Bible? Where in the Bible text can you find Young Earth creationism, or Gap creationism, or Intelligent design, or Evolutionary creationism? Where? For any politically active form of "creationism" today, the first sentence is wrong--at least in misidentifying the source of most creationist beliefs. --- Rednblu 05:57, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Enough bantering. We have fully expressed our views. I call the question. Lets put it to a vote. All those in favor of keeping the reference to the Bible in the initial definition signify by voting keep, all those in favor of rewriting the initial definition to the viewpoint of Rednblu signify by voting rewrite. Lets have the voting time be one week. KeyStroke]
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In the following section, I suggest you not allow yourself to vote for a sentence that you feel is like: "When did you stop beating your little poodle?" -- if you feel that you have never beaten your little poodle. Take this chance to fill in one of the "Version N" stubs below to say exactly what you think is right and accurate. If you see a version below that you think is right, then vote for it, and please give us a quick reason for your vote. For myself, I will feel free to change my vote when I see a "Version N" that I think is better than the one for which I have currently placed my vote. :)) --- Rednblu 19:21, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
<<Creationism is the belief that the universe and all life were created by the deliberate act of God as described in the Bible.>>
<<Creationism is the belief that the universe and all life were created by the deliberate act of God.>>
<<Creationism is the belief that the universe and all life were created by the deliberate act of some supernatural power (usually one or several gods).>>
Just an idea... Rama 16:29, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
<<Creationism is . . . >>
<<Creationism is . . . >>
This is about as logical as the poll now being taken, because it does not speak to assumptions of the newcomers who are currently writing. For a broader and more logical definition, see the list of creationist variants.
<<Creationism is the belief that the universe and all life were created by the deliberate act of God as described in the Bible.>> Yes, but not with the assumptions that seem to be following...
Why are both sides assuming the most narrow definition possible? It is an assumption that is propagated only by the poles. This is an acceptable assumption to the Christian fundamentalist and to the enemies of fundamentalists, who prefer to label all Creationists as fundamentalist for the propaganda purpose of marginalization and ridicule. It is not acceptable to the large majority in between. To be a Christian is to be a Creationist. But some Christians believe the Genesis account to be a scientific treatise; some believe it to be a literary or theological treatise.
The most vocal Creationists are those who both accept the Genesis account as literal and believe that it contradicts modern science. But a larger number of Christian Creationists are either comfortable that no real dispute exists, or are willing to wait for the resolution of the paradoxical parts. Pollinator 13:16, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)
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Would you please state a "Version 3" above for which you could vote wholeheartedly? Personally, I have very fundamental criticisms of "Version 2" above; I think it is wrong. Nevertheless, I inserted the original first sentence as "Version 2," because in my opinion it represented the conclusions of the majority of editors working the Creationism page over the past year--in this instance, I am protecting the progress I have seen this whole group make over the last year. I wanted to give you and others a chance to make a complete statement of what you think should be the first sentence--from your point of view--as "Version 3," "Version 4," etc. above. --- Rednblu 19:07, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Thanks for asking. I have no personal objections to Version 2. But I see a lot of objections from the creationists who say that "creationism is NOT a belief--it is a hypothesis." And in my opinion, most religious-neutral scholars would agree that creationism is a "hypothesis." By my own standards, creationism would be a "discredited hypothesis"--something like Phlogiston theory--a hypothesis that either contradicts modern empirical evidence or posits unnecessary variables, such as "creator" or "phlogiston."
Hence, I would argue that the current definition "Creationism is a belief . . ." is no more accurate than would be a definition "Evolution is a belief . . ." that a bunch of unthinking Wikipedia bigots could enforce on the Evolution page if there were enough of them. For now, my criticism of version 2 is much less significant than the question up for vote: Whether creationism includes some theories, hypotheses, explanations, and ideas that contradict the Bible. So I voted for Version 2 to avoid introducing a much less important point that would be a distraction in the current setting. Thanks for asking. --- Rednblu 23:14, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I have come to the conclusion that Rednblu, and cohorts, simply want to sabotage this page. I am going to give up trying to reach a reasonable agreement, since all that they seem to really want to do is to argue. I, myself, wanted to build an encyclopedia entry that reflected the ideas of all the creationists I know. However, it is obvious to me that the beliefs (yes, beliefs) of the vast majority of people who hold that God created what exists seem not to matter, here. People that I know who believe God created us initially get it from three sources: A. The pulpit. B. Their family or friends. C. The Bible. Almost always the other two reinforce whichever of those three was the first source to which someone is exposed. None of the dozens of people I know who accept the idea that God created us got it from reading obscure Catholic texts or Augustine or even Plato. It is a shame that the viewpoints of the vast majority of people who accept creationism have to be swallowed up by the vocal minority. Creationism is important because the public school system in the USA preaches (yes, they preach it) that man did not come from God, but rather from a lower form of life. The alternative view, that man came from God, and therefore we have an obligation to our creator is what makes creationism important. The "foundation stone" for the belief of the dozens of creationists I know is the Bible. That fact cannot be contested. People get, or at least verify, their belief in creationism by reading the Bible. They don't go checking obscure Catholic texts, nor do they read the dusty archives of Augustine or Plato. Instead, they accept the veracity of the Bible. I don't know why Rednblu and crowd want to obscure that fact. However, the contention is obvious. And it does neither side benefit to continue the argument. So, I sacrafice the idea that Wikipedia, in this page, can reflect the viewpoint and opinion of hundreds of thousands of people who hold the ideas of creationism as true. It means more to Rednblu to sabotage it than it does to me to preserve the truth, here. I am no longer watching this page. KeyStroke
according to the article text, i assume that the distinction is the presence or absence of speciation. insofar as biology has a working definition of species, then it recognizes a distinction between micro- and macroevolution. should this sentence simply be removed?
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I suggest we replace that sentence with a sentence that is accurate. How about the following replacement?
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Maybe. But within my observations, mainstream scientific journals do not use the term "macroevolution"--even as a cumulative result. So it would be inaccurate, in my opinion, to say "referred to as macroevolution." So I would suggest not adding that sentence. In my opinion, the creationists use the concept of "macroevolution" as a resistance against considering the possibility that just the simple "microevolution" that can be proven in the lab could cumulate such that a herd of ancestors of the chimpanzees doing only "microevolution" could result in two herds of animals as widely different as chimpanzees and humans. Just my opinion of what makes a clearer, accurate statement. What do others think? --- Rednblu 00:53, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Also, does anyone think that it might be a good idea to mention in the article this thing that we've descussed here, namely that macroevolution was brought about as a concept by creationists, not by evolutionary biologists, as a workaround to the overwhelming laboratory evidence for evolution? -
Lethe |
Talk 13:43, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
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According to Macroevolution FAQ, the terms were not invented by creationists. However, creationists (well, AiG at least) prefer not to use the terms, instead talking about the difference between loss of genetic information and gain of genetic information. See Variation, information and the created kind. Philip J. Rayment 16:05, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Just a minor point, but User:Michael Glass has just made some edits that include modifying the following sentence with the words I have shown in italics: "The term usually refers to Christian creationism and especially to the belief that living organisms were created by God in their present form. This sounds very much like an old idea that creationists perhaps once had that there has been no speciation and that creatures have not changed at all. However, this view is not held by (most?) creationists today. Rather, they believe that the original created kinds had sufficient genetic variability that allowed for speciation and adaption within genetic limits. On that basis, I believe that the additional words should be removed, or if I have misunderstood the intention, the wording should be clarified. Philip J. Rayment 05:14, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Yes. I saw those edits. He, like other editors, has keyed in the kind of "creationism" he believes in, and he has made sure that most of the real variations of "creationism" are not represented. The current first two sentences are atrociously wrong.
Just out of curiosity how would you edit the above two sentences to make them right? --- Rednblu 05:43, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I have now made the changes as outlined above. I hope that this wording is acceptable.
Actually, I wasn't describing my beliefs, I was trying to describe creationist beliefs. This is hard to do because different beliefs come under the heading "creationist". At one extreme we could have a definition of creationism that would demand a rather literal interpretation of one of the creation stories in Genesis. At the other extreme, we could have a definition of creationism that could encompass a belief in evolution, provided that God was in final control.
Perhaps Philip's wording (immediately above)is clearer than "after their kind". I would certainly have no objection to the wording that he suggested. Michael Glass 06:50, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Summary of the issue: What is the best single word or phrase to describe "Creationism"? Should the word "theory", which has multiple meanings be used?
--- Begin copy of contents from /What is wrong with the lead section
In my opinion, the fundamental logical flaw in this approach is basing your investigation on "belief." Hypothesis: To start an encyclopedia article with "Xism is the belief that . . . " will always fail to produce a good encyclopedia page. You might start paging through your virtual Encyclopaedia Britannica for a counter-example to the above hypothesis--looking for a "good" encyclopedia page that begins with what I am asserting is an irredeemably flawed first sentence "Xism is the belief that . . . ." You may find what you think is a counter-example encyclopedia page, and of course I will contend that that encyclopedia page is not "good." :) It is like beginning an encyclopedia page with the first sentence: "Ten is the odd number that . . . ."
The first sentence of a "good" encyclopedia page on "creationism" should describe what "creationism" is--not what "creationism" believes. For example, you might begin a "good" encyclopedia page with "Communism is a system of political and economic organization in which . . ." or you might begin a "good" encyclopedia page with "Creationism is the theory that . . . ."
I leave it for the reader to derive the general logical constraint that produces a "bad" encyclopedia page from the first sentence of the form "Xism is the belief that . . . ." --- Rednblu 15:29, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Let me illustrate the problem with the current first sentence to the Creationism page.
If everyone agreed to that sentence, then there would be no problem with that first sentence. The difficulty is that, to make that sentence correct, over half of the people on this earth would have to change the words that follow "Creationism is the belief that . . . ." We could take a poll to pin down the statistics that I imply in "over half of the people."
As it is now, most people who explain their existence as divine creation have beliefs that violate the phrase "as described in the Bible"--because most people who explain their existence as divine creation believe that some form of speciation fomed H. sapiens and that is not "as described in the Bible," but rather "as described in" Darwin's, Origin of Species. Again, we could take lots of polls to pin down the statistics I imply by phrases like "most people who. . . ."
I don't really think you mean that Creationism is just a belief. It is also a political movement, it is a controversy, it is the basis of a way of life, it is a basis for moral systems, etc.
And the professional encyclopedias recognize the entirety of what "creationism" is in the lead sentence. Consult any professional encyclopedia. Creationism is not just a belief, it is a . . . . --- Rednblu 18:36, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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What difference does that make? you ask. I would say it is only a matter of accuracy--as long the words model somewhat closely what is going on in reality. At first, "belief" seemed to me to be the right word. To me, "creationism" is a belief that some people have. But then I saw that so many people disagreed with what followed the phrase "Creationism is the belief that . . . ." So then it seemed to me that it would be nearly impossible to make an accurate statement that would model reality, beginning with "Creationism is the belief that . . . ."; it doesn't matter whether you put the Bible into that definition or not, it still will not model reality. I assume that an encyclopedia would like to model the "reality" of what people have thought, said, and done.
So then I explored how the hardcopy encyclopedias have introduced the whole host of "beliefs"--the -isms. I found in the hardcopy encyclopedias the following:
The textual structure here is that view, critique, doctrine, and movement are all abstractions that you can define outside of the believer's head. They are defined before "belief"; belief is what someone might have in the view, critique, doctrine, or movement. I found it interesting that Britannica starts the "creationism" entry with
With that kind of beginning, the article can lay out the variations in the "theory." The "theory" can have a political influence. The "theory" can be criticized as having more causes than it needs, or the "theory" can be proven wrong. And of course, some people have a belief in the theory and some people don't. It is merely a question of accuracy of the encyclopedia article in modeling reality. --- Rednblu 23:27, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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I understand your political turf explanation quite well. It is nothing more sophisticated than our inherited chimpanzee politics. Reality be damned; what counts is holding the political turf. I'm not even objecting. I'm just pointing out that in fact, "Creationism is a theory . . . ." I understand that currently in Wikipedia, the evolutionist censors will not allow the truth be told. But if you look outside Wikipedia at reality, there are many kinds of theory other than scientific theory; there is wage theory and auteur theory and location theory and tricellular theory and creationist theory none of which even claim to be a science. At least all of those non-scientific theories are "explanations" that serve quite adequately for what science cannot even begin to handle. Just because some lame-brain religious zealot devised the brilliant chimpanzee politics trick of faking up creationism to be a science does not justify ignoring the reality of what "creationism" is. --- Rednblu 05:18, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Let me rephrase if you will.
I understand your political turf explanation quite well. It is nothing more sophisticated than our inherited chimpanzee politics. Reality be damned; what counts is holding the political turf. I'm not even objecting. I'm just pointing out that in fact, "Creationism is a theory . . . ." I understand that currently in Wikipedia, many will not support the use of the word theory that differs from the way that the word theory is used in biological science. But if you look outside Wikipedia at reality, there are many kinds of theory other than scientific theory; there is wage theory and auteur theory and location theory and tricellular theory and creationist theory none of which even claim to be a science. At least all of those non-scientific theories are "explanations" that serve quite adequately for what science cannot even begin to handle. Just because some creationist strategist devised the brilliant chimpanzee politics trick of faking up creationism to be a science does not justify ignoring the reality of what "creationism" is. --- Rednblu 06:58, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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People are right to object. While creationism is a theory, in practice it's paired up with evolution that to call it that is confusing. Besides, other similar things aren't usually described as theories anyways (e.g. most are described as stories rather than historical events even though people believe in them). As such, some other synonym is preferrable. I don't know why you object to the term belief, which does a good job summing up other positions like theism, atheism, etc, but there are plenty of other words that could be used. Idea, view, and position come to mind.
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I object to "Creationism is a belief that ..." in the same sense that I would object to "A mammal is four legs that ...." Even allowing for some whales having the vestigial hind legs, "four legs" does not capture the functional essence of "mammal" very well. The flaw in "Creationism is a belief that ..." is that it does not model reality very well in representing what "creationism" is. Let me state the following Hypothesis: The political drawing power of "creationism" is that creationism looks to uneducated people like a theory that explains how people got here on this earth. This is the standard anthropological interpretation of why people gravitate to creationism. [23] --- Rednblu 07:56, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Fair enough. Any objections to Creationism is the position that...?
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On the "belief" issue, I was assuming that an "ism" is, essentially, a belief (or a set of beliefs, perhaps). However, Mirriam-Webster Onlinedoesn't actually give that definition, instead defining "ism" as a distinctive doctrine, cause, or theory. I still don't really have a problem with the word "belief", but I am happy for something else to be substituted. I would probably go for "view", which incidentally was used twice in Rednblu' list of examples, but I'm open to "doctrine" or other possibilities.
On the issue of "as described in the Bible", I think I see where you are coming from, Rednblu, having now read most of the nine pages of talk (whew!). If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting/claiming that the term creationism is applicable to anybody who believes in a divine creator (or something like that), regardless of whether or not they follow/accept the biblical narrative. On this I would disagree. Sure, the term could be used to describe non-biblical views of creation, but is that the way that it is normally used? As mentioned by others in the earlier discussion, most dictionaries do refer to the Bible or Genesis in defining the word.
As for the comparison with "A mammal is four legs that...", again I think I see your point, that "belief" (or any of the other terms that have been suggested?) don't explain creationism well enough. I'm a bit ambivalent on this at the moment, but I'm not convinced that the analogy is correct. Perhaps you could propose some alternative wording so that we can better see where you want this to go.
Actually, I don't really like the third sentence of the introduction ("However, not all..."), as it appears awkward and rather pointless.
Philip J. Rayment 12:31, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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I do believe that the empirical evidence supports the following Hypothesis: Out of all the people of this earth who believe that divine creation put them here, only a very small fraction believe that the divine creation followed the biblical narrative. I have no personal preference that all of those people would 1) follow or 2) not follow the biblical narrative. Isn't this just a question of fact--comparing statistically what 1) people say about the divine creation that put them here versus the 2) biblical narrative?
Let's not worry for now about whether "belief" is appropriate. The resolution of that issue, in my opinion, is a huge political problem within the whole camp of evolutionists, of which I am one. That is, in my opinion, fixing the "belief" problem in the Creationism page is a long-term process of getting the evolutionists to deal with reality. If you think "belief" is good-enough, let's stay with "belief" for now. --- Rednblu 17:19, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Just to comment on belief a bit more, a belief doesn't have to be an airy-fairy thing that has no connection to reality. We believe, for example, that if we sit on a chair, it will hold our weight, based on the experience that we have with sitting on chairs previously.
As for what should come under the heading of "creationism", the following articles could be instructive, although personally I wouldn't take everything this author says at face value: [24] [25] [26] Philip J. Rayment 15:30, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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We've discussed the topic of creationism: theory/belief/hypothesis/etc.? at length previously here: Talk:Creationism/Is_Creationism_a_theory.
A hypothesis or conjecture requires the following to qualify as a theory:
Creationism clearly does not qualify as a theory. Barring any additional credible proof that it is indeed a theory, then it remains in the realm of belief, or conjecture at best. It seems some are bent on getting a second- and third bite at the apple on this point.-- FeloniousMonk 17:42, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC) --- Sure. You have expressed exactly my particular point-of-view; that is how I want to use the word theory; that is how I have trained myself to use the word theory. But that point-of-view is not how most people use the English word theory. Just take for example what most people mean by "domino theory." That is, most people use "theory" not to mean scientific method; but rather to mean an organization of knowledge that explicitly names assumptions, accepted principles, and rules to explain the knowledge--with no requirement for verifiability.
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Ok. Would you say that the " domino theory" applies the
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--- Restatement of Hypothesis: The evolutionists on Wikipedia enforce a censorship on Wikipedia from a bigoted and parochial view of theory that contradicts the general usage of the English word "theory".
Thank you for your example in support of my hypothesis. No need to reply; typical misuse of facts, logic, and grammar. --- Rednblu 17:04, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC) ---
Obviously there is a dispute whether creationism is a theory. One side says it is, one side says it isn't. Therefore it would be a violation of NPOV to start the article with "Creationism is the theory that...". The obvious solution, for me, is to start with "Creationism is the belief that...", then say that "creation scientists" claim it is also a theory. Hob 17:44, Sep 25, 2004 (UTC)
No price for good style, but another possibility would be:
Pjacobi 21:44, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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I disagree with this solution. Calling creationism a theory, even in a relaxed, vernacular form, when it fails to meet any of the criteria of an actual theory, is misleading and confusing to readers, who would first have to understand the nuance. Also, as long as creationists consistently insist their belief is an alternative to scientific explanations for the universe's origin, not to mention consistently insisting that such science is wrong and/or flawed, their belief should then have to meet the same standard as any other explanation for the origin of the cosmos if they want it to be taken as an credible alternative explanation.
The correct solution is to call reader's attention the fact some creationism proponents insist that their beliefs qualify as theories and outline the criticisms of those claims.-- FeloniousMonk 04:50, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Arrgh! I forgot to put this page on my watch list. A bit of catching up here...
<<Creationism clearly does not qualify as a theory.>>
I am not pushing for using the word theory', but some things need to be said here (although I just know I'm going to regret this).
On a slightly different note, I am frequently amused by people arguing that:
So which is it really?
Philip J. Rayment 04:24, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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It seems to me that our struggle here is a valid one. We are attempting to define among ourselves what points-of-view should be allowed to make statements on the Creationism page. The final constructive outcome of our struggles here would be a list of the allowed points-of-view. Here are some of the points of friction that we have encountered so far.
Approaching the problem of making a great Creationism page from this angle, we might make a list of the points-of-view in the current Creationism page--and then see what points-of-view would need to be added to make that great Creationism page. --- Rednblu 05:42, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I think your approach to and framing of this particular question is flawed. In a very real way we as wikipedians don't get to "define what points-of-view should be allowed to make statements on the Creationism page" as you say. The points that should be addressed are the ones that are relevant to describing accurately and concisely creationism, and they are already determined. The Creationism article should be an accurate and concise description of creationism and its status in society; nothing more and nothing less. Most have stated here and on the main discussion page it it does that already. Further, neither you nor I own the article or the debate, so I don't think creating your proposed "a list of the allowed points-of-view" is in the spirit or the best interest of wikipedia, it smacks of censorship and power grabbing. I would oppose it, as attempting to control knowledge in such a manner is anti-wikipedia and likely to fail. Continual attempts by self-appointed minders to redefine and restructure the debate will only smack of POVism, as some have discovered.
Addressing your individual points and suggestion here:
I feel that the points raised here point out the need for Philosophy of Creationism article that leaves the original Creationism article to deal a concise and balanced way with describing creationism. I will be moving to have that article created, so to speak.-- FeloniousMonk 07:32, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
In my opinion, it is irrelevant whether a participant on this page understands the underlying science. And it is unnecessary to engage in this standard chimpanzee politics and hierarchy challenge that we all inherited from the ancestors of the chimpanzees. We are writing an encyclopedia page. And what matters is whether the participant faithfully represents a valid and documented point of view on the Creationism page. We will expect legitimate citations, of course. The Creationism page does not address, challenge, overlap, threaten, nor discuss science, though some wrongfully keep twisting the Creationism page to do so. In my opinion, Mr. Rayment's statements faithfully represent history and standard uses of the English language whether or not they correspond to the narrow views of science. --- Rednblu 06:01, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Let me start with saying, that I'm also of the opinion, that Creationism is a belief. But as some important believers want the label "theory", I agree with putting "theory" in the first sentence and suggested above the possibility of the clarifying however not in the scientific understanding of "theory" sub-sentence for a NPOV treatment. Please consider three points.
And, BTW, has anybody read something of de:Harun Yaha? We are seeking some concrete counter-arguments for some of his concrete arguments but so far nobody volunteered to actually obtaining his book. Pjacobi 10:03, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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I agree it is important to get the facts right and let the reader judge, which is why I suggested outlining both sides of the controversy over use of the word theory in relation to creationism, as opposed to just using the phrase with what amounts to a disclaimer. I'm not summarily objecting to the proposed statement because it is not accurate, but because the sentence is confusing and not explicit; it requires of the reader an understanding of the differences and significance of those differences between "theory" in the sense of a nonacademic belief or notion, and an actual scientific theory, without providing an explanation of those differences. In other words, explicit statements are preferable to implicit statements, or tautological statements. If we can rework it to be an explicit statement, that would be an improvement and something I could support.-- FeloniousMonk 17:20, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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I was aware that my formulation attempt will most likely not be stringent enough for a first sentence, as I said in my first post here. I'm still of the opinion that the statement is correct, and I interpret your post to agree on this. I fear I'm not much help in finding a good formulation, as I'm not a native speaker, and subtle difference between German and English may blur my view. On de: we settled (so far) on "ist die These" (is the thesis), which is less awkward but also less informative than is a theory, however not in the scientific understanding of "theory". In German the is the belief ("ist der Glaube") formulation would look rather strange. "Menschen glauben an X" (people believe in X), but we want to talk of X, and in some places of the believers (persons, organisations and tactics), not about the belief in X.
Sorry for confusing everbody.
Pjacobi 19:07, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Again, I think your approach and framing of the question are flawed. Historic POVs and scientific POV's are not competition in academia, or in an encyclopedia. One POV does not trump the other generally, but share space. Nor should either impinge on the other's purview. They coexist within our corpus of knowledge and as to what extent this is relevant to keeping the article accurate it should be pointed out.-- FeloniousMonk 07:47, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I have reverted the headings in Talk:Creationism#What is wrong with the lead section of Creationism? to NPOV headings. As my previous comments failed to convince, I am here enlarging on why.
In any case, the proposals should be considered on their merits, not on the basis of whose points of view they are.
Philip J. Rayment 03:15, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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I learned a lot from that "Summary" exercise of Points-of-View, though sometimes it felt like a mere Chimpanzee Politics turf battle in which I felt like I acted like a chimpanzee ganging up in temporary coalitions to defend turf like everyone else I saw. However in the process, I consulted more actual encyclopedias and dictionaries in more depth than I had before. User:Steinsky wisely, in my opinion, replaced the ramble on the parent page with a thumbnail summary that actually works. And, in my opinion, it would be constructive for the quality of the Creationism page if we would continue that "Summary" exercise here on the subpage where that work toward a "Summary" actually belongs. Accordingly, I structure a "Summary area" below where I would suggest that each contributor wanting to participate would edit only their own Summary statement. Whose statement goes first or last does not matter to me; so feel free to move the position of my statement as you feel that position would strengthen your own personal point-of-view. And of course, I invite anyone else not listed below to make a summary statement, particularly anyone reading that has not yet had a chance to make a statement on what they think would be the most accurate lead section for the Creationism page. Please limit statements to around ten lines--merely for clarity. If you want to make a long statement, please do so outside the following "Summary statements of participants" section. --- Rednblu 16:04, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Maybe for some enterprises your principle of "have to meet the same standard as" would be constructive. But I doubt that your principle of "have to meet the same standard as" is a good approach for writing a truthful and accurate encyclopedia. For in establishing the principle of "have to meet the same standard as," someone must declare which standard is the winner, within what otherwise would be a free-market competition among different standards.
Perhaps, the Wikipedia community would like to encourage the scientists in winning the competition over what definition of theory is allowed within Wikipedia. After all, as Justice Holmes once said, "If you have no doubt of your premises or your power and want a certain result with all your heart you naturally express your wishes in law and sweep away all opposition."
Above you argue that the Wikipedia community should declare that "Creationism should then have to meet the same standard as science." But I suggest that declaring the monopoly outcome for science over control of the word and definition of theory would be fatal in trying to put together an accurate and truthful encyclopedia.
For as Justice Holmes said, it is natural to want to sweep away all opposition. Then he continued, "But when men have realized that time has upset many fighting faiths, they may come to believe even more than they believe the very foundations of their own conduct that the ultimate good desired is better reached by free trade in ideas-that the best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market, and that truth is the only ground upon which their wishes safely can be carried out." [30]
I suggest that instead of adopting the principle of "have to meet the same standard as," a truthful and accurate encyclopedia would display the participants in the "free trade in ideas"--something like Creationist A says "A theory is the following . . .," and Nobel Prize Winner B says "A theory is something different . . . ." You may think that such an accurate description of the "free trade in ideas" would permit the creationists to manipulate people's minds with their pseudoscience. I do not take such a dim view of what natural selection and circumstance have made of us. Do you really think that pseudoscience has such power? --- Rednblu 06:58, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
You have a singular gift for coming up with straw man arguments. Science doesn't "own" the term "theory" any more than Christians own the term religion; dictionaries define words based on what is found in general usage, and according to most dictionaries, people associate the word theory first with science before they associate it with a notion or idle conjecture, which is what you're arguing it is in this limited case (making your claim a special pleading).
"...I doubt that your principle of "have to meet the same standard as" is a good approach for writing a truthful and accurate encyclopedia. For in establishing the principle of "have to meet the same standard as," someone must declare which standard is the winner, within what otherwise would be a free-market competition among different standards."
OK, so it's your position that in order to have a "a truthful and accurate encyclopedia" we should not define terms consistently or demand stringency in our justifications for defining thusly? Your "free-market" justification for abandoning explicit definitions leads to a race to the bottom and intellectual mediocrity; it only assures that all definitions so defined will be so vague as to be near useless.
"Perhaps, the Wikipedia community would like to encourage the scientists in winning the competition over what definition of theory is allowed within Wikipedia... Above you argue that the Wikipedia community should declare that "Creationism should then have to meet the same standard as science." But I suggest that declaring the monopoly outcome for science over control of the word and definition of theory would be fatal in trying to put together an accurate and truthful encyclopedia."
That's singularly threadbare and ignoble reasoning. Not exactly in the spirit of wikipedia now, is it? Trying to make this out as a competition and that scientists here are trying to make a power grab is a shabby and intellectually vacuous tactic. You used the same ploy in your creationist campaign at talk.origins and alt.atheism and it didn't work there, what makes you think it's going to work here? You and the proponents of creationism are the ones seeking to redefine the term and change the article, not us, we are satisfied as it is. Those here you call "scientists" are not asking for the article to be changed, you are. You've been flooding this debate with every form of specious notion to find an angle, and barring that now you're stooping to new lows. Your POV campaign here isn't able to make the case so you try to tar your opponents... Nice!
"For as Justice Holmes said, it is natural to want to sweep away all opposition..."
Well, Justice Holmes also said "Three generations of imbeciles are enough." in Buck v. Bell, 1927, endorsing Virginia's eugenics program. I'm not surprised you'd cite his likes as support.
Then again he may have had a point, perhaps we have had enough generations of imbeciles...
"I suggest that instead of adopting the principle of "have to meet the same standard as," a truthful and accurate encyclopedia would display the participants in the "free trade in ideas"--something like Creationist A says "A theory is the following . . .," and Nobel Prize Winner B says "A theory is something different . . . ."
Using your logic here one would never be able to have meaningful foundational basis for the word. It's like saying even though most experts and the public agree dogs are members of the species lupus, some non-experts should be allowed to say they belong to the species silvestris, because their religious beliefs dictate that any other belief is wrong and so they should get a special exemption. That's singularly bad logic.
You repeatedly use the phrase here"...a truthful and accurate encyclopedia..." but I have to ask why the concern about truth and accuracy now? I mean, you haven't bothered to be truthful or accurate to us about your POV agenda and history now, have you? Bringing up this argument now after our summaries is again an attempt to get another bite at the apple and refactor the debate, just more proof of the shabby tactics of your POV campaigning here; it's blatant flooding of the Talk pages, a violation of wikipolicy.
I'm reluctant to engage you again in anymore discussions here considering the recent revelations as to your true POV, the lack of good faith it indicates, your history and identity. Obviously your mild claims of supporting evolution are nothing more than a beard you've hidden your creationist, religionist agenda behind to disarm your opponents, based on my reading your extensive history of usenet tactics in talk.origins, alt.atheism, etc. going as far back as 1996. You used the very same tactics and arguments there and were shown up to be a fraud. I feel your pet POV campaign here to redefine creationism as a theory and dishonesty about your true POV bias here precludes you from contributing anything with semblance of NPOV. I think you've got a lot of explaining to do before I and others will give you full faith and credit as a wikipedian.-- FeloniousMonk 09:39, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
In my opinion, movement is a great improvement in accuracy over belief--because I think movement captures both the idea and the organization that promotes the idea. Also, I think Mr. Monk's suggestion is a good one: "Creationism is the religious doctrine that . . . ." What came to my mind on reading both of your summary statements was this possibility:
Your phrase "Creationism is the movement that . . ." may be simpler and more accessible to the reader.
Is there any significant view within creationism that would feel a bias against them in the statement "Creationism is the movement that ... "? Perhaps a significant portion of creationists might not like to associate themselves with the Organization of a movement. Also, in your opinion, is there a significant view within creationism that would feel that the phrase "as described in the Bible" is biased against them? For example, according to the Encyclopædia Britannica article on "creationism,"
Would the statement Creationism is the movement that proposes that the universe and all life were created by deliberate act of God as described in the Bible be biased against such scientific creationists? --- Rednblu 17:32, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Regarding whether any creationists would object to "Creationism is the movement that...", I can't really say, other than to offer the opinion that I don't think they would.
Regarding whether any creationists would object to "..as described in the Bible", I suppose it depends on who is included in that category. Intelligent Design people don't refer to themselves as "creationists", but if you include them, then I guess that some of them would disagree with this bit. Apart from them, creationists pretty well all agree with what the Bible says, they just disagree on what it means!
Philip J. Rayment 12:53, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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Ahh, ok. Are you saying that generally each creationist reads the Bible account of the creation as describing the events in their particular version of creation? Hence, the Bible account is given wide interpretation by creationists in a full range from those who believe that creation occurred in 1) six twenty-four UTC hour days to the extreme of 2) God created only the first bacterium of life from which all creatures alive today evolved according to natural selection. If that is so, in my opinion that would be important to say, perhaps in the second sentence. --- Rednblu 16:20, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
In principle, yes. My caveats are:
Philip J. Rayment 12:24, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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Are you advocating that "creationist" is a self-proclaimed designation? It may be better to adopt a "neutral" point of view to define the term and apply it whether or not the person with the defined point of view uses it to describe themselves. I offer as an example the term " materialist." I don't think I have ever referred to myself as a "materialist"--because the term does not express the nuances of how I think of myself. Nevertheless, the term "materialist" is regularly used--and fairly--to distinguish my writing and thought from " dualist" or " idealist."
The term "evolutionist" offers another useful example. It is useful in the Creationism article to use the term "evolutionist" even though there are few molecular biologists who would refer to themselves as "evolutionist"; Charles Darwin used the term "evolutionist" repeatedly to refer to himself and to other "naturalists" who were convinced that natural selection explained the Origin of Species. Sixth edition of Origin of Species that you can scan for Darwin's uses of the phrases "admitted by most evolutionists" and "admitted by all evolutionists."
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You make valid points regarding the use of terms. I actually wasn't totally advocating that; I was being deliberately vague, pointing out that there are different ways of looking at this, although I suppose I was leaning a little the way you said. However (to still sit on the fence), here are some further thoughts.
So I'm still fence-sitting. Back to you for further comment.
Philip J. Rayment 03:18, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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Well said. I am listening. Wouldn't you want the Creationism page to have a short paragraph on all the varieties you mention above--with a break-out subpage for the details--similar in structure to the Evolution page? --- Rednblu 05:59, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Summary of the issue:
Summary statement of
FOo:
Summary statement of
FeloniousMonk:
My position remains that the current opening sentence "Creationism is the belief that the ..." is accurate. It correctly identifies creationism as a belief. Any meaningful sense of the word theory implies codified sets of useful knowledge, which creationism is not. It should be noted that those who are making the argument for the use of theory to describe creationism are making a special pleading.
Historically and here on wikipedia creationists consistently insist that creationism is an equally plausible alternative to scientific explanations and that such scientific explanations are wrong. By positioning its assertions in the realm of science and opposing science, Creationism should then have to meet the same standard as science when identifying its claims or itself as a " theory." Few would assert that the geocentric model is a theory in any sense, yet actually it is supported by empirical evidence unlike creationism, for which there is no empirical evidence. This illustrates clearly the problem of associating creationism with even the idea of theory, even its loosest sense.
As theory is defined on wikipedia, creationism fails to qualify as a theory because: 1) is inconsistent with any pre-existing theory that has withstood verification experimentally or in reality, 2) is not supported by any credible evidence but rather rests on a single foundation of magical thinking, 3) cannot be verified or tested, but must be accepted on faith, leaving it open to unresolvable disputes regarding interpretation and its nature, 4) makes no predictions that might someday be used to prove or disprove its claim, or those of any of the alternative explanations for the same data.
Of the vernacular definition of theory as defined on Dictionary.com, only the last, most fully deprecated definition provided can be said to apply to creationism. It is clearly not the most common usage of the term and hence not sufficient to justify its use in an introductory statement to a encyclopedia entry. By the majority of the above criteria creationism clearly does not qualify as a theory, yet it fully qualifies as a belief as it is defined by both wikipedia and dictionary.com
Additionally, the following leading scientific organizations have all issued statements that creationism is not a scientific theory:
The constant drumming insistence of creationists that their belief is a theory here and elsewhere itself is significant enough to justify including a mention of it in the article. I propose an outline of their justifications followed by objections/criticisms of those claims.
I do not support Pjacobi's compromise solution on the grounds it would be misleading and confusing to readers who may not understand the nuances and distinction it makes. His proposed sentence is confusing because it is not explicit; it requires of the reader an understanding of the differences and the significance of the differences between "theory" in the sense of a nonacademic belief or notion, and an actual theory, without providing an explanation of those differences. An good encyclopedic entry should present explicit statements, not implicit statements, ill-defined, nuanced statements or tautological statements.
Frankly, the introductory statement is not explicit enough... this is a more accurate statement and and used in the media: "Creationism is the religious doctrine that all living things on Earth were created separately, in more or less their present form, by a supernatural creator, as stated in the Bible; the precise beliefs of different creationist groups vary widely." I propose that this more accurate description identifying creationism as a "religious doctrine" be used in place of belief or theory.-- FeloniousMonk 00:47, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Summary statement of
Philip J. Rayment:
Summary statement of
Rednblu:
Summary statement of
Hob Gadling:
I am definitely against "theory" and don't particularly like "belief". "Movement" is better than both, but I guess "point of view" is the obvious choice. Hob 21:24, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
I didn't participate in the above discussion, but I think I'm the contributor of the disputed sentence. (Let me take a moment and *blush* if I'm not ;-)
Here is what I'd like to see now, in view of the recent, er, unpleasantness:
"Creationism is the belief that the universe, the planet earth and all life on the earth was created as deliberate act by a divine being.
A later sentence -- possibly even in the same intro paragraph -- would identify the religious believers espousing this view, why they believe it, and some important variations of the belief. If this is too much for the lead paragraph, trim it and allude to details to follow:
Jews and Christians cite the Old Testament account in Genesis as authority for their faith: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. ... God created man in his image ... male and female He created them." ( Genesis, chapter one from memory, so please correct the wording)
Whether the view should be called a "belief" or a "theory" is another question. If the term theory is disputed by us contributors, just use view as a catch-all term. I think most of us can agree on belief simply because a lot of people believe this viewpoint. We could also mention somewhere in the article the movement which is trying to get the view re-classified as a scientific theory (see creation science or scientific creationism). Note that the intelligent design movement is also trying to get scientists to agree to use the term hypothesis in a this context. -- Uncle Ed 15:03, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
--- End copy of contents from /What is wrong with the lead section
Summary of the issue:
One point of view:
Another point of view:
--- Begin copy of discussion from /History of Creationism
I removed the reference to Darwin introducing natural selection as it was described by Edward Blyth (a creationist!), 25 years before Origin of the Species. I also removed the references to Darwin not intending to oppose religious accounts but rather opposing Lamarck, as I don't believe it to be true. Stephen Jay Gould claimed that Darwin did intend to oppose the biblical creation story, and as I understand it Darwin implicitly accepted Lamarck's ideas. Philip J. Rayment 12:59, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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In my opinion, that reference to Darwin does not belong there at all. Darwin was not a creationist; he did not contribute to creationism; he did not change creationism. Darwin is irrelevant to the History of creationism--just as Jesus Christ is irrelevant to the History of Judaism. That insertion of Darwin into the History of creationism is only an artifact of the constant evolutionist nuking of the Creationism page--interrupting the explication of the theory with advertisements for motorcars that have nothing to do with the theory.
The format of the Evolution page is about right. Everything about Darwin and evolution should be moved to a minor section "Creationism and Darwin" that would be the structural and logical equivalent to the current " Evolution and religion" section of the Evolution page--presenting the most significant competitive theories. --- Rednblu 17:44, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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I take that as a hypothesis. And I am more interested in the nature of proof for that hypothesis than I am interested in whether your hypothesis is right or wrong. First, I would look for counter-examples--because why waste time proving A when there is a simple counter-example to A? :) So suppose I could show you in Darwin's own letters that the Creationists around him so terrified him that for years he could not bring himself to publish his Origin of Species. Would that be a counter-example to your above hypothesis?
Are you sure you want to say that?--because it seems to me that you are saying there was a very active Creationism movement going before Darwin ever drew his first breath, a very active Creationism movement that had Darwin in such hesitation that he postponed publishing his own theories in opposition to the Creationism movement--even when he knew he was right--because of the outcry he feared that would erupt from the very active, very organized, and long-established Creationism movement that had him under control--until he got the courage to stand up to the Creationist movement that held him back. --- Rednblu 23:18, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Let me introduce you to the Creationism page from which I quote the first sentence: "Creationism is the belief that the universe and all life were created by the deliberate act of God as described in the Bible." I have carefully Wikified links to the nouns in that sentence so that you can point out to me which of the nouns in that definition did not exist before Darwin. Maybe you want to write a new page Creationism (movement)? But your whole conception is as wrong and as myopic as saying that there wasn't a Christianity movement before محمد; "the Christianity movement is a group specifically devoted to obfuscating Muslim science and philosophy." --- Rednblu 00:13, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Nope. You are picking a very unrealistic view of how old the "creationism controversy" is. I have in hand a translation of a gentleman who lived before Christ who had his own movement and explanation in controversy with the creationists. He wrote:
And this gentleman writing before Christ proceeds to lay out a series of explanations that learned men knew was right: Who would create the Creator? Lifeforms had metamorphosed slowly under natural forces into other forms--and eventually into the living animals around us. And there was no need for a Creator to intervene. Certainly, this gentleman living before Christ was not even close yet to guessing at natural selection, but he certainly opposed creationism, and the creationism movement surely condemned him as a heretic and likewise those who similarly tried to figure out the details of how we could metamorphose over many generations from beasts to men. Aren't you interested in the facts? --- Rednblu 02:12, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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In what way do you think that Darwin's ideas changed the "creationism controversy"? Creationism continued to argue from the old-fashioned foundation of faith. Look at the facts. Do you mean to say that Darwin's ideas changed the "evolutionism controversy"? That is, probably you can find some writings of Thomas Huxley that support the idea that Darwin's ideas changed the "evolutionism controversy" by giving the evolutionists a hypothesis "to get hold of clear and definite conceptions which could be brought face to face with facts and have their validity tested." [31] But that did not change the "creationism controversy" one whit; the creationists still argued from faith and common sense--as they have for over two thousand years. --- Rednblu 03:17, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Surely, you don't really think Old-Earth creationism and all of those other pretenses are "massive changes." They are just preacher homiletic tricks to package the same old faith. Do they look like science to you? Heaven help you if they do. They were around long before Darwin got into the act. These are all ancient ideas; they go back at least to the Greeks. But let's just take "modern" examples before Darwin. For example, around 1824 the Reverand William Buckland in introducing the first dinosaur fossil Megalosaurus already was interpreting the "days" of creation as "ages" in order to explain that there had been giant beasts around long before men appeared.
The idea that there had to be an Intelligent Designer was argued by William Paley as early as 1809. on-line text And Theistic Evolution was argued at least as early as an 1845 London Times article where a reviewer says about Reverand Buckland's 1836 Bridgewater Treatise that "his general conclusion being, that the present world was constructed out of the materials of a former one; that former one from the wreck of its predecessor; and so upwards, ad infinitum." (The London Times Monday, Jun 23, 1845; pg. 6; Issue 18957; col A) Darwin no more changed "creationism" than Lavoisier changed phlogiston theory; Darwin may have disproved "creationism" but he had negligible effect on the content of the "creationism" theory that he disproved. --- Rednblu 08:42, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
<<Let me introduce you to the Creationism page from which I quote the first sentence: "Creationism is the belief that the universe and all life were created by the deliberate act of God as described in the Bible." .... Maybe you want to write a new page Creationism (movement)?>>
Actually, after logging off last night, I had the thought that instead of "belief", "view", "doctrine", or similar, perhaps the best wording is Creationism is the movement... I agree with Steinsky in that creationism as a movement only began as a response to Darwinism, and even though before that there were creationists, and debate about creation vs. something else, the word creationism was not used in that context. (Rednblu, did you look at these links-- [32] [33] [34]-- that I previously included?)
So I guess the question is, should this article be about the creationism movement, that has existed for less than 200 years, or should it cover the entire history of debate about creation? I suggest that we concentrate on the creationism movement that was a response to Darwinism, but include a bit of "background" in the form of documenting some of the earlier debate.
Philip J. Rayment 12:10, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Perhaps the communism page is a good template. That is, as with the word "communism," once you have the definition for the " -ism," to be accurate, you will have to look back through history to the Greeks to see whether the "-ism" existed even back then. Your three links are interesting, but I don't see anything beginning just because someone put an English word on it. The mechanics of Magnetism are unchanged whether you apply the English word to the phenomenon or not--likewise for "creationism" or "communism." The English word is merely a label that you put on the phenomenon.
Perhaps. But the driving force even in "creationism as movement" is not the movement. The driving force is the common sense appeal of the theory within "creationism." For example, the "theory" of "creationism" makes the best sense to people who are unconvinced by the facts that suggest evolution; 2000 years ago the "theory" of "creationism" made more sense to some people than the facts that supported the "theory" of " atomism". They look into their "heart of hearts," and they say "God did it" -- facts be damned. It is the same theory and it is the same appeal that has worked at least for the last 2000 years. --- Rednblu 16:48, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Nobody is denying that, you know, we are allowed to cover both pre- and post-Darwin Creationism in the article! You seem to be set on removing the section on the effects of Darwin's idea from the article, but only because the creationism philosophy existed before Darwin? -- Steinsky 17:08, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Yes--because Darwin's idea had negligible effect on the "belief," "controversy," or "theory" of creationism. One of the predominant features of "creationism" is that it does not evolve in the face of the threats from the competition. Instead of evolving, "creationism" responds to science--not with science--but with repackages of the old faith and common sense arguments--churning through the same old set of 2000 year-old interpretations and fudges of Biblical text packaged in modern language.
Do you still contend that Old-Earth creationism, Theistic Evolution, and Intelligent Design grew out of Darwin's idea? In my opinion, it would be accurate to pull all of the Darwin material into a section "Creationism disproved." But it is a disservice to the reader to embed the Creationism page with the current infestation of pop-up ads for Darwin's idea. The reader comes to Creationism in the hope of reading a clear exposition of "creationism." Why isn't the Evolution page a sufficient advertisement for "evolution"? --- Rednblu 18:04, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
You think these pages are advertising Darwin's ideas? I still contend that the OEC, TE and ID exist as reponses to Darwinism, why would I change my mind, you have provided no evidence to the contrary? -- Steinsky 18:36, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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What in Intelligent Design is not just homiletic repackaging of William Paley's 1809 book Natural Theology? Notice, I am giving you an on-line link to the actual text. In my understanding, homiletics is the kind of repackaging of the Bible lesson that a good pastor does in giving modern stories and examples to elucidate the underlying dogma of what he or she is trying to get across to those sitting in the Sunday church pews. --- Rednblu 19:06, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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I don't think I've come across the word before, you appear right that ID is homiletics, but my point is that it is a significant example of homiletics because:
Steinsky 19:28, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Would you agree with the following?
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<<For example, the "theory" of "creationism" makes the best sense to people who are unconvinced by the facts that suggest evolution; 2000 years ago the "theory" of "creationism" made more sense to some people ...>>
This may be just semantics, perhaps, but maybe it illustrates some of the disagreement. I would have written that sentence (without the quotes) as "For example, the theory of creation makes the best sense to people who are unconvinced by the facts that suggest evolution; 2000 years ago the theory of creation made more sense to some people...". Creation is the idea/theory/model, creationism is the movement. By the way Rednblu, thanks for fixing those links.
<<Darwin's idea had negligible effect on the "belief," "controversy," or "theory" of creationism.>>
It, along with uniformitarian geology, had quite a big effect. They gave rise to various compromise ideas (day-age, gap theory, theistic evolution, etc.) and changed creation from being the dominant paradigm to almost wiping it out, before it started to claw its way back.
<<One of the predominant features of "creationism" is that it does not evolve in the face of the threats from the competition. Instead of evolving, "creationism" responds to science--not with science--but with repackages of the old faith and common sense arguments--churning through the same old set of 2000 year-old interpretations and fudges of Biblical text packaged in modern language.>>
It didn't evolve because it didn't believe in evolution! (sorry). It did change, and it does respond with science (as well as Scripture). They are certainly not the same old arguments (some may be), but there are a whole lot of new argument used.
Philip J. Rayment 16:54, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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Can you get a copy of Reverand William Buckland's 1836 Bridgewater Treatise? I once had a link to an on-line copy; I would give you the link, but the site disappeared. In my opinion, Buckland sketched out the logic of day-age, gap theory, and theistic evolution before he ever read Darwin. And Buckland published those pieces of creationism theory before Darwin returned from his Beagle voyages. Of course, Buckland did not talk about how God guided natural selection, but he talked about how God guided a series of extinctions of life and how God built the next set of creatures from the fragments of the prior creatures, starting with an earth that had no creatures, then microscopic creatures, then vast dinosaurs--like the Megalosaurus that Reverand Buckland himself introduced to the science world--and finally, according to Buckland's 1836 treatise, God built man from the fragments of the creatures of the world in which no man existed. And Buckland wrote about all of that day-age, gap theory, and theistic evolution before Darwin got back from his Beagle voyages--so, in my opinion, Darwin had little effect on day-age, gap theory, and theistic evolution--except maybe give a trivial label--"natural selection"--to what it was that God guided. --- Rednblu 17:47, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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So were Darwin's ideas popularizers of "creationism"? Or were the writings of "creationists," such as Reverand Schofield popularisers of "evolutionism"? In any case, it seems to me that the creationism theory was firmly in place before Darwin. Perhaps, all of the references to Darwin should be moved to a section "People influential in popularizing the Gap Theory." --- Rednblu 19:03, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Let's keep the debate focused and on topic. The original question and purpose of this Talk is the question: Should Darwin be Darwin be mentioned in the Creationism article? Remember wikipedia policy: "The Talk pages are not a place to debate which views are right or wrong or better. If you want to do that, there are venues such as Usenet, public weblogs and other wikis."
--- My position is yes, mention of Darwin needs to remain as part of the creationism article.
A Creationism article without Darwin is like a Goliath article without David.-- FeloniousMonk 09:59, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
--- End copy of discussion from /History of Creationism
Myself and several others over the last three months have noted in the discussions here what appears to be a loosely organized campaign on this and related articles to work POV statements and positions into the articles by repeatedly using a particular set of tactics. The most common tactic seen has been to tie up those holding the consensus view that is unfavorable to a particular POV in endless debates over semantic arguments over common terms and drawn out debates on peripheral topics, all while ignoring or denying the existence of prevailing, well-established consensus opinions. The point of this tactic is to wear down and confuse any opposition and muddle the issues making the introduction of POV content easier. The use of this particular tactic violates the wikipedia policies on abusing Talk pages: "The Talk pages are not a place to debate which views are right or wrong or better. If you want to do that, there are venues such as Usenet, public weblogs and other wikis." and that wikipedia is not a battleground for ideologies.
A quick perusal of the recent debate of whether creationism is a "theory" has good examples of the tactic being used, as will the User Talk and home pages of some of the participants.
I would like to see the opinions of users here and reach consensus as to how best to deal with campaigns bent on promoting a particular POV that can avoid the wikipedia mediation process.-- FeloniousMonk 09:43, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
You are very right to bring this up Mr. Monk, more than you realize. I've been watching this ongoing drama for the last few weeks with some amusement, because obviously none of you have any idea who you are dealing with. Rednblu is contributing here under false pretenses: he is a notorious, longtime usenet creationist crank and crackpot. His pro-creationism, pro-religion, anti-evolution posts and rants comprise one of the most famous creationist campaigns in usenet history. Longtime users of talk.origins, alt.atheism, and alt.fan.publius are very familiar with his tactics there: flooding the boards with attempts to control debates and misrepresenting his own views and those who dare oppose him. He employs deceit, insults and ingratiating flattery in equal, copious portions. The time is here for the truth to be made known, you are facing one the usenet's most notorious POV creationist campaigners here, despite his claims to being a supporter evolution.
Some on the usenet cite an article claiming Rednblu is a grad student experiment or a bot, though there is an actual person that goes by his real name. Search Google Groups for Rednblu and read for yourselves, dear readers, then decide if his dishonesty and POV campaigning is something that you want to put up with here...-- Logic hammer 03:36, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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I will not speak as though Rednblu has been convicted or proved to be acting in Bad Faith. But your accusations are serious. If they are real (and let me be clear that I have enjoyed Rednblu's contributions), he must be disciplined formally. Tom - Talk 23:11, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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Too bad we didn't benefit from Rednblu's concern for other users here when you ran three different Talk page discussions to absurd lengths in an effort to insert your POV into this article and Intelligent Design over the last three weeks...
To the extent that it is here now, the existing content of this discussion should stay where it is as it grew out of Rednblu's actions here and relates directly to his imputed objectivity and that of his propositions made here. Additional discussion can take place elsewhere on wikipedia as needed, including his and my User talk pages. Beyond the allegations made by Logic hammer above, I assert that Rednblu has been conducting a mendacious campaign rewrite the Creationism and Intelligent Design articles to suit his POV, to which end he is constantly restructuring/refactoring of Talk pages to favor your POV, continually resurrecting previously settled NPOV topics, and flooding Talk pages with long, drawn-out off topic debates, violated has willfully violated the BBC terms and conditions for the use of their content.-- FeloniousMonk 23:56, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
No I disagree that this needs to be kept private. "To keep from disturbing our neighbors" seems a blatant attempt to control the discussion, and in itself seems to me to be highly suspicious and perhaps even symptomatic of trolling. Perhaps he thinks that here, there will be less attention, but clearly you can't hide anything on wikipedia. I noticed this discussion, and others will as well. If this IS trolling, it will definitely be dealt with. On the other hand, if this is unfounded slander it will also be dealt with. Logic hammer might very well be (or equally NOT BE) the same person, in fact, as trolls often use sockpuppets with opposing views to bring more discussion, and argument, and as each 'side' increasingly supports the different troll POVs, the original trolls quietly slip away, leaving dissension and confusion behind. Not to point any fingers, as I am going offline, but I will be looking this over with great attention. Comments welcome here or my talk page. Pedant 21:27, 2004 Nov 7 (UTC)
I would like to bring up a separate topic on the lead opening statements. As follows, in regards to this part,
""This debate is highly controversial and is not considered a serious debate by most scientists.""
I object to this part. It is not a neutral view. I propose the following modification. This debate is highly controversial as demonstrated by the famous scopes trial for inclusion of evolution into public schools, a majority of scientists do not consider creationism a scientific proposal but a religious doctrine therefore outside the scientific Method.
To say not a "serious" topic is bias IMHO. I think my description is more neutral and to the point, I mean come on "most"? a majority would be a better term.
To the majority not serious? to minority is? I mean really I think my description is more to point and explains the "most" what most? a majority right? and this most what do they object to? no scientific method. Also it is a serious subject for debate legal and scientific as demonstrated in our courts, it needs a qualifier like I have about the scientific method. If it is not serious why the big deal in the courts?
Vistronic --
Vistronic 07:00, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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This discussion probably belongs as part of the discussion at Talk:Creationism/What_is_wrong_with_the_lead_section.
Regarding the statement in the article: "This debate is highly controversial and is not considered a serious debate by most scientists." The statement is consistent with the wikipedia NPOV policy and the wikipedia style guide. It is a factually accurate statement, most scientists do not seriously consider creationism to be a serious alternative explanation to evolution, though proponents of creationism continue to insist that it is while denying science's primacy in the matter, thereby creating their own controversy. That the issue still occasionally finds its way into the courts because creationism proponents insist on promoting it as an alternative to scientific explanations is not much of a strong endorsement of its relevancy, but says more about the mendaciousness of creationism's boosters.-- FeloniousMonk 08:47, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
If you will note I have not dismissed the fact that a majority of Scientists reject creationism.No I do not dismiss that but clarify it. Second the premise assumes that Science by default is the ultimate truth, or should I say trumps religious truth, I am not trying to debate here, what I am saying is this ARTICLE on creationism sounds like its written by a evolutionist! At least in this part... why do I say that it is.. it omits the fact that some consider creationism a subject of faith! Yet here we go again trying to box it up in science and the science method, Why? We are talking creationism here NOT DEBATING ITS FAULTS. so SCIENTISTS don't take it serious whoopee! Millions of others do! Should we now take a poll and then post the results here? Maybe we should call it a cult? or polls show only Fundy's in America think such things. No a definition should be neutral... not subject to EVO scientists to define creationism! Give me a break, please read my revision it is NOT BIAS.
To define a religious statement by EVO scientists.... well its like different don't you see that? Again my revision, what is wrong with it? what are its errors? does it not say about the same thing but better? I mean using the word "most" is kind of simple in this context? no?
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I agree that the "controversial" tag violates all reasonable standards of neutrality. That "controversial" tag is just another pop-up advertisement for the scientific method as being the only true point-of-view. And as most advertisements, the "controversial" tag is irrelevant to the subject of the page, which is "creationism."
My main criticism of your proposed substitute header tag is that it is too long, if I may say so. I hereby move that we just remove the "controversial" tag altogether. --- Rednblu 16:08, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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I disagree that the "controversial" tag is unreasonable or an "advertisement for the scientific method as being the only true point-of-view". No reasonable person viewing the volume of debate on the Talk pages for Creationism and its nine archives(!) would conclude that the subject of creationism is not controversial, not to mention the fact that creationists constantly fan the flames of the controversy themselves by insisting that creationism be taught alongside or in place of evolution or other scientific explanations. In fact, the current favored tactic of Intelligent Design proponents, which is a proxy argument for creationism, is to "teach the controversy", cementing the fact that creationism is indeed a controversial subject.
The controversial tag was placed for good reason, because creationism is a controversial topic both here on wikipedia and in American society in general. Any effort to redefine it as otherwise demonstrates a POV bias. I oppose any effort to remove the tag.-- FeloniousMonk 17:47, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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Back in the Dark Ages, the Scientific method page was mislabeled with the "controversial" tag; that mislabeling resulted from the bigotry of the theists who wrongfully insisted on defining what the scientists--not theists--should be defining. In the case of the Creationism page, the mislabeling with the "controversy" tag results from the bigotry of those who 1) believe in the preeminence of science and 2) insist on defining what no standard of neutrality would allow non-creationists to define. --- Rednblu 18:31, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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Do you actually have an argument that even attempts to prove creationism not controversial here on wikipedia or in American society? Or does your assertion rest on your previously made allegation that there's a conspiracy of scientists at wikipedia?-- FeloniousMonk 19:04, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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The value of Scientific method in explaining Origins is as "controversial" in the American society as is the value of Creationism. sample poll And in fairness and even-handedness,
I am not objecting to the put-down in "is not considered a serious debate by most scientists"; just state it accurately. If Richard Dawkins said it, then use Richard Dawkins actual words--that would be accurate. In paragraph 2, the phrase "is not considered a serious debate by most scientists" is purposefully deceptive--because we all know that scientists consider this debate to be so serious that highly regarded scientists like Richard Dawkins will devote a Hell of a lot of time and effort to win that debate. --- Rednblu 20:00, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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That's a terribly specious argument: a poll that finds the scientific method as "controversial" as creationism in explaining Origins is not the same as saying the scientific method is controversial at all. Not even close. And you've failed to make your case, or any case for that matter, that creationism is indeed not controversial on wikipedia or in society.
The existing second paragraph currently reads: "Most creationists reject the modern evolutionary synthesis (the current scientific theory of evolution) because it attempts to explain the appearance of life without divine intervention. In this article, supporters of evolution will be referred to as evolutionists. The creationism controversy is the debate between creationists and evolutionists about the origins of life. This debate is highly controversial and is not considered a serious debate by most scientists."
As long as the article's lead statement contains reference to creationism's opposition to evolution, it is only appropriate to qualify how the opposition views creationist's assertions.
The existing phrase "This debate is highly controversial and is not considered a serious debate by most scientists. " accurately reflects reality and should remain as part of the lead section. Quotations of specific scientists and reference to relevant policy statements made by scientific organizations can be accommodated elsewhere in the article. Keeping the existing statement in its current location is central to understanding creationism's status in society as long as the proponents of creationism continue to: 1) insist that creationism is an equally plausible alternative to our scientific understanding of our origin, 2) insist that scientific explanations for our origin are wrong, biased, or part of a anti-creationism conspiracy 3) insist that creationism be taught alongside or in place of scientific explanations in science classes. -- FeloniousMonk 20:40, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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Hello I must say I find this discussion interesting. I also noticed that somehow my revision is now appearing on the main page?! I thought it was removed?! Anyways as far as I can assimilate, the revision is better EXCEPT for length; that may have merit, the whole opening being too long in whole, but really I see little that needs to be trimmed. By mentioning the Scopes Trial the whole topic is really driven to home base. By mentioning the Scientific Method the EVO opposition that is mentioned in the previous line is brought to the fore front. Look I am new here so I am trying to work the system whatever that may be... But I am not new to the topic; I have spent a great deal of time on this topic, and I consider myself to have somewhat of an open mind. But the line.... Not a serious debate? Look at this talk page! Look at all the INTERNET! The statement needs to be clarified and my revision I think does that.. it is not a serious debate AGAINST the scientific method--For a majority of scientists. Look! Is creationism to be defined by the scientific method in its description? I think not, but I agree it's appropriate to mention such. Again this is quite interesting, glad I am playing a small part. Vis. -- -- Vistronic 03:33, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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The "controversial" tag on the article surely refers to any controversy surrounding the content of the article, not any controversy surrounding creationism. So some of the arguments put by FeloniousMonk and others are invalid, but the fact remains that the content of this article is controversial, as seen by all the discussion on these talk pages. In theory (although I'm not too hopeful), we could get to the stage where we could have a non-controversial article about the creationism controversy. Then, we could remove the "controversial" tag.
As for the phrase "is not considered a serious debate by most scientists", this phrase is ambiguous at best. Most scientists don't consider creation worthy of serious (or any) consideration, but on the other hand, most scientists think that creationism is a serious matter than cannot afford to be ignored, even to the extent of organisations being started and books being written with the express purpose of opposing it! Now that's serious!
Philip J. Rayment 15:06, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
i like very much Ed Poor's recent edit. - Lethe | Talk
Considering that Barry Setterfield's article about the decay of C is an example of Junk Science (see http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/c-decay.html ), don't you guys give it a little too much credit by not mentioning that it is a fraud?
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May I in a soft voice :) suggest that we develop the documentation of these two oppositely-clustered scholarly POVs on the definition of "natural selection" by careful citation and maybe even short quotes to published articles and books? For example, has some molecular biologist used in a publication something like Ed's excellent metaphor of "selecting-in versus selecting-out" to discuss various routes to speciation? I am looking. --- Rednblu 16:19, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Summary: A POV argument ignoring science.
Christianity is far from the only religion which advocates creationism. References to "Christian," "Christianity," and "Bible" should be replaced with terms that include all three Abrahamic religions. Excluding Judaism and Islam simply because Christianity is the most popular advocate of creationism in the 'States ("english speaking world"?) makes this article philosophically inaccurate. Excluding Judaism in particular is quite unusual, seeing as Christians draw their records of creation from Torah texts.
I also had problems with the following sentence: "However, not all Christians are creationists, nor are all creationists Christian. In fact, other major religions believe some variant of Creationism, though often not in such terms." I attempted to fix the sentence by replacing "Christian" with theist, but the statement would no longer be true, as I'm fairly sure all theistic creationists are indeed theists. I have removed the sentence altogether.
This article should not become a propaganda pamphlet for Southern Baptist "Christian Creationism." Shem 10:09, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
No, I meant what was typed. "Theistic creationists" meaning those who hold that the universe was created by a deity, as opposed to those who might suggest an extraterrestrial theory. The sentence "not all Christians are creationists, nor are all creationists Christians" cannot be changed to read "theists," as I'm fairly certain all (theistic) creationsts are indeed theists.
So far as prominence goes, Christianity should not hold a place above any other Abrahamic religion in this article, especially not Judaism (nor should any of the others hold prominence over Christianity, as well). Fact is, the "records" of creation come from Torah texts, courtesy of Moses, via Judaism before Christianity. That you believe Christians are paying more vocal attention to it does not change the idea's origins, nor does it change that all three Abrahamic religions (largely) hold it in truth.
Christianity may contain more creationists, but its followers were also the first "theistic evolutionists" in the religion scene, if I recall correctly. I can't say that I know of any prominent "theistic evolutionist" Jews or Muslims. Shem 03:45, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Throughout this discussion please be aware of the difference between Creationism and Young Earth Creationism. Most Christians (and I imagine Jews and Muslims) are Creationists - i.e. they believe that the Universe was created by God. Outside the US only a minority are Young Earthers. There is already an article on Young Earth Creationism and I think some of the stuff here should go there. DJ Clayworth 21:10, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Heya -- a little afraid to jump in here for fear of getting in trouble. i don't have a strong pov here but i like to think i'm well-versed in all pov's involved. lemme know if i piss you off. Ungtss 04:52, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
the following might be somewhat pov, so I won't change the the main article until I've figured out a way to npov it.
Well that's what the intro says at the moment, creationism is the opposite of evolutionism. But um, in modern usage, evolutionism is just a rhetorical straw man. Ie "If you're not a creationist you must be an evolutionist", or "If you're not a christian you must be a satanist". It doesn't actually exist! Even though many folks might think it does. Witches and satanic rituals don't really exist either.
In general no real evolutionists (in the modern sense) have really existed until recently, just like no satanists have existed until some folks got inspired by th wild stories.
From a scientific viewpoint, evolutionism would be a cargo cult.
Ok, now to fix the article based on that.
That'll sort of be a problem though. Defining something as the opposite of something that doesn't exist isn't really a good idea in the first place.
Hmm, I know, how about saying that "Creationism is the belief that the world, and all life was created by God" (This is actually more all inclusive than I used to think :-) ). Leave out the anti bit, I don't think there really is one. (the opposite of creationism might be "Satan created the world"
Oh well, at least no one tried to compare Creationism with the Theory of Evolution, since those are from very disparate branches of philosophy. So thank God no one actually tried that! ;-)
Any suggestions?
Kim Bruning 11:35, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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In my opinion, creationists in the Creationism page should be able to use the word "evolutionist" as a label for the advocates of evolutionary thought at least with the meanings that Charles Darwin used the word "evolutionist." I cite to you just two sentences from the Sixth Edition of Origin of Species. [46]
From both of the above sentences, I would conclude that Charles Darwin would subscribe to the phrase, "I am an evolutionist" at least, according to Thomas Huxley when Darwin was talking with Thomas Huxley and Darwin's creationist wife Emma was not around.
Similarly, creationists in the Creationism page should be able to use the word "evolutionism" in the same way that the English newspapers used the word "evolutionism" as a label for the advocacy of evolution as the explanation for the diversity of life on earth. Was the label "evolutionism" a made up word? Yes, at some period in time all the ism words were made up from the word fragments of the previous generations. In fact, by my recollection, most of today's ism words were invented by Charles Darwin's contemporaries. I note in particular Thomas Carlyle's repeated invention of a new ism word as he boldly labeled, contrasted, and criticized the strains of thought competing during Charles Darwin's lifetime.
Since I find no deviation of the modern English dictionary meanings of evolutionist and evolutionism from the usage of Charles Darwin and his contemporaries, I conclude and assert that the creationists should feel free to use the terms evolutionist and evolutionism in the Creationism page with exactly the definitions provided by the modern English dictionary, such as the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, Oxford English Dictionary, or the American Heritage Dictionary, pick your edition.
Specifically, the following sentence, though more convoluted than necessary, would qualify as NPOV by Wikipedia standards--because this sentence accurately summarizes the contrasting POVs of Charles Darwin and his contemporaries as stated expressly by Charles Darwin and his contemporaries.
I don't mind whatever you say, but do note that currently there is a difference between
Like RTFA even. If the creationism page wants to contrast with evolutionism, that's fine, but note that there are very few realistic proponents of evolutionism in existence, as far as I'm aware. (Those that exist should probably be put out of their misery). Comparing with such a weak position wouldn't really add much to the article. This is not the place to attack evolutionism though, that'd be at that article. :-)
Kim Bruning 18:50, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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In my opinion, the Creationism page is one of those pages where the published scholarly POVs are so clustered at such widely scattered poles that the only way to construct a NPOV lead section is to quote and paraphrase some key scholar in each of the widely separated clusters. For example, the second paragraph of the lead section of Creationism sketching the broad spread of creationist and evolutionist views might have a structure something like the following.
It would seem to me that quoting a key scholar in each of the contrasting categories of Mr. Ungtss's interest would satisfy Ms. Bruning's excellent criticisms--that it is unacceptable POV to force labels onto people who object to the labels. I would say that you could quote some scholar who forced those labels onto people; you could say Scholar A forced those labels onto people. But then, it seems to me, you would have to acknowledge and quote the people who object to having those labels forced onto them. Hence, it might be easier to quote a key scholar in each cluster so that the people in that cluster would say, "Hey. I agree with that. I own that label. And I aggee with Mr. Ungtss's characterizations of all those other clusters out there that are wrong." :)
I would say that Ms. Bruning points to the modern situation in which many modern "evolutionists" reject having the label "evolutionist" forced upon them--a label which Charles Darwin finally owned as his own in the Sixth edition. But if you examine Darwin's first five editions of Origin of Species, you will see that Charles Darwin resisted even having the label "evolution" put on his theory. Hence, the first five editions of Origin of Species contain neither the word evolution nor evolutionist! [47] So for thirteen years after first publishing Origin of Species Darwin himself rejected having the labels evolutionist and evolution put on him and his work. --- Rednblu | Talk 19:53, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
A lot can happen while I'm away for the weekend! Here are my responses to the comments in this section.
Philip J. Rayment 01:45, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I plan on moving the "Creationism in public education" section to the Creationism in public education page according to the ToDo list we have been discussing as a means of bringing the Creationism page size to within reasonable limits. Does anybody have any new objections or discussion? --- Rednblu | Talk 05:40, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Let me summarize what may be a POV problem with the page title Creation accounts in Genesis. I open this question here because the master ToDo list for the Creationism series is maintained at the top of this TalkPage.
Before we go changing the title, can someone clarify as to who believes that there is only one creation account? As a 6-day creationist, I consider it to be quite clear that there are two accounts. (What I don't agree with is that the two accounts are in any way inconsistent or contradictory.) Actually, looking again at what Rednblu said, is that some believe that there is "one creation account described from two perspectives". Are we just playing with words here? What does "account" mean in this context? Does the very use of the word somehow indicate inconsistency or something? Philip J. Rayment 00:37, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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Sorry for the lack of history in the proposal. Here is a short explanation of history. I jumped into a little tussle :) and proposed a compromise. Someone renamed the "accounts" page to read "account(s)" and a little revert tussle erupted in my opinion. :) I proposed a compromise to remove the varieties of the word account from the page title completely.
I like Mr. Dreams's suggestion of Creation according to Genesis best of all. Does anybody have see a fault in that title? Is there any reason to retain some variation of the word account? --- Rednblu | Talk 01:09, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In the section about belief in god vs evolution (philosophical naturalism, or something), there is mention of Ashley Montague as a notable advocate of both God and Evolution. Who the hell is Ashley Montagu? Could we put someone of World standing here instead, so that it actually becomes meaningful to people outside of wherever it is that Ashley Montagu has been heard of? CheeseDreams 21:09, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
1) i'd like to change the name of the "creation accountS in genesis" page to "creation account(s) in genesis" 2) i'd like permission to remove the text in the creation account(s) section, and leave a simple link to the new page.
any thoughts?
Ungtss 21:56, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I HEARBY APOLOGIZE FOR RESPONDING TO CHEESEDREAM'S INCIVILITY WITH INCIVILITY OF MY OWN. please forgive my error. Ungtss 23:13, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
(For a continuation of this conversation, see /Talk.)
--- Begin cut of essay
How Did Genesis Know?
31 Many find it hard to accept this creation account. They contend that it is drawn from the creation myths of ancient peoples, primarily those from ancient Babylon. However, as one recent Bible dictionary noted: “No myth has yet been found which explicitly refers to the creation of the universe” and the myths “are marked by polytheism and the struggles of deities for supremacy in marked contrast to the Heb[rew] monotheism of [Genesis] 1-2.”3 Regarding Babylonian creation legends, the trustees of the British Museum stated: “The fundamental conceptions of the Babylonian and Hebrew accounts are essentially different.”4
32 From what we have considered, the Genesis creation account emerges as a scientifically sound document. It reveals the larger categories of plants and animals, with their many varieties, reproducing only “according to their kinds.” The fossil record provides confirmation of this. In fact, it indicates that each “kind” appeared suddenly, with no true transitional forms linking it with any previous “kind,” as required by the evolution theory.
33 All the knowledge of the wise men of Egypt could not have furnished Moses, the writer of Genesis, any clue to the process of creation. The creation myths of ancient peoples bore no resemblance to what Moses wrote in Genesis. Where, then, did Moses learn all these things? Apparently from someone who was there.
34 The science of mathematical probability offers striking proof that the Genesis creation account must have come from a source with knowledge of the events. The account lists 10 major stages in this order: (1) a beginning; (2) a primitive earth in darkness and enshrouded in heavy gases and water; (3) light; (4) an expanse or atmosphere; (5) large areas of dry land; (6) land plants; (7) sun, moon and stars discernible in the expanse, and seasons beginning; (8) sea monsters and flying creatures; (9) wild and tame beasts, mammals; (10) man. Science agrees that these stages occurred in this general order. What are the chances that the writer of Genesis just guessed this order? The same as if you picked at random the numbers 1 to 10 from a box, and drew them in consecutive order. The chances of doing this on your first try are 1 in 3,628,800! So, to say the writer just happened to list the foregoing events in the right order without getting the facts from somewhere is not realistic.
35 However, evolutionary theory does not allow for a Creator who was there, knew the facts and could reveal them to humans. Instead, it attributes the appearance of life on earth to the spontaneous generation of living organisms from inanimate chemicals. But could undirected chemical reactions relying on mere chance create life?
--- End cut of essay
What is the point of this essay? --- Rednblu | Talk 02:28, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Disregarding the the other biases in the article, I would have to say that quoting the PAW poll as greater than 50% support for teaching creationism is the same as quoting 99% support for teaching Christianity by defining 'teaching Christianity' as 'mentioning the Bible in class.' Historical and philisophical education is vastly different from scientific education.
First, the link to the wiki entry for Edwards v. Aguillard is right there (and I moved the quote there); second, this is in a section that was supposedly moved to a daughter page; it should be short.
I think we can reach a one or two sentence summary that we can agree upon. How about this:
Most recently, the Supreme Court has held in their ruling of Edwards_v._Aguillard that laws concerning theories of origins (even creationist ones) taught in public schools must have a secular purpose and scientific merit, using the test laid down in Lemon_v._Kurtzman.
- Fleacircus 20:56, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I removed:
The first phrase is redundant, the reference to "evangelical fundamentalists" is (what's the term?) perjorative?, it is no more associated with Fred Nile than many other people, I question whether it has any less social prominence than in the U.S.A, and from what I can gather, it hasn't achieved any legislative prominence in the U.S.A. anyway, with most legislative attempts being rejected. Philip J. Rayment 02:36, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In the edit of 20:20, 24 Nov 2004, something went wrong. Can somebody figure it out and fix it? --- Rednblu | Talk 06:56, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think it's ok now; I changed the Links section from <h4> to ====. Now the sections seem to work. --- Ben Standeven 02:41, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
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I formatted the Creationism page in the standard Main Article summary and layout that is used, for example, in the Evolution and Human pages as has been discussed on this TalkPage for over a year. Please refer to the Creationism archives and subsequent discussions if you have any questions. :)) --- Rednblu | Talk 21:40, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Summaries of other articles shouldnt be here because it's redundant and can cause inconsistency when one of the pages covering the same subject changes while the other remains unchanged. Grice 10:57, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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Summaries of "Main articles" are the Wikipedia standard, as you can see in the Evolution and Human pages, just for two examples. Can you give me a Wikipedia example of a page where "Summaries of 'Main articles'" was considered by the Wikipedia community to be "redundant and causing inconsistency"? --- Rednblu | Talk 15:16, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've corrected sentence introducing Phillip E. Johnson to reflect that Phillip Johnson's claims are not general, but highly particular.-- FeloniousMonk 06:23, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Additionally, it would be in the article's interest to add some context around the Phillip E. Johnson bit with some of the opposing viewpoints for balance.-- FeloniousMonk 06:26, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It seems to me that this page is really poor. There isn't a well-defined use of the term "creationist". The opening paragraph seems to indicate that a creationist is someone who believes in Genesis creation. However, later on there are references to a 1997 Gallup poll that was completely neutral to whether the respondent was a believer in a Judeo-Christian formulation or some other formulation of theism. Furthermore, there are "creationists" who believe such things as the Earth and even the universe was "created" by aliens, for example. Is this a form of creationism? If not, then we should really define what exactly we are talking about. 67.172.158.8 17:56, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
you can't place yec as a straw-man in opposition to science -- that's one pov. the yec folks believe that science SUPPORTS a young earth. to set YEC in "opposition" to science in the first paragraph is pov ... and an especially damaging pov on a page like this. as to the "scientific consensus," it was Karl Popper who said, "I don't believe that success proves anything." Ungtss 00:49, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
In the UK certainly most people use the term YEC to describe those that assert that the scientific method would back up their beliefs. I'm sure there are those that take the belief without believing in the scientific method but are they common enough to warrant discussion? I reverted to Ungtss' version. Barnaby dawson 16:05, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There are definitely people who are YECs that use evidence other than that from science to back up their assertions. As such, the statement is too narrow to be correct. 67.172.158.8 18:00, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There seems to be some clamoring for a removal of the statement that most YECs are fundamentalists. This is surprising, because it is definitely one of the primary perspectives of every YEC I've ever met. 67.172.158.8 16:28, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
<<Do you actually evaluate the claims of geology, astronomy, chemistry, nuclear physics, etc. and find them wanting?>>
<<What references do you use to support your claims?>>
I have read Ungtss' comments and remain unimpressed. Here is the Wikipedia definition for YEC:
There is no account of any claim to science in the first paragraph. I will not take the time to debunk the incorrect science stated by user Ungtss, since he can edit any of the statements in the Wikipedia library if he were really to believe this (for example, he could edit the article on the conservation of angular momentum if he believes that there is no way to get rotation in astrophysical gas clouds), but I have edited the definition to my satisfaction. YEC relies either on a faith-based rejection of modern science (as pseudoscience or as naturalism or as secularism) but is not on the whole necessarily scientific.
As to the claim that there are no references to this, the reasonable thing to do is refer to self-described Young Earth Creationists. Polling makes no sense because the term is self-descriptive. I can refer to any number of websites that reject prevailing scientific notions of astronomy, geology, biology, physics, etc. in favor of Young Earth Creationism. As such, they necessarily reject scientific statements. I can also refer to most Young Earth Creationist literature as accepting a literal interpretation of Genesis. Therefore, I have justified my edits and will continue to maintain the position. 67.172.158.8 02:18, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
<<I have edited the definition to my satisfaction.>>
<<As to the claim that there are no references to this, the reasonable thing to do is refer to self-described Young Earth Creationists.>>
<<Young Earth creationism is the belief that the Earth and life on Earth were created by a direct action of God a relatively short time ago. The belief is held by the Christians, Jews, and Muslims who believe that the ancient Hebrew text of Genesis is a historical account.>>
<<This is beside the point. First, the unsubstantiated atheistic claim is merely an ad hominem for you to state, but the last sentence in the Age of the Earth article states it all. Just look into how the work was done and evaluated. It's very meticulous and you've obviously not read it.>>
Here is a link: [51] ~
(UTC)
From your site:
From my site:
The article is untractable and doesn't deal with the simple explanations provided. It is also the reason I reverted. Joshuaschroeder 23:16, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
i understand that. but you've only quoted the intro to my article, without even considering the length of it on isochron dating.
<<Potassium-argon dating, for example, assumes that minerals form with no argon in them. Since argon is an inert gas, it will usually be excluded from forming crystals.>>
perhaps if you'd read the article more thoroughly, you would have noticed this:
um ... would you care to justify the revert of an edit which added factual information without deleting anything? Ungtss 22:43, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
josh, what relevence do the stats on changing attitudes on biblical literalism and inerrancy have to do with creationism, since creationism is not dependent on either? (evident from the stats, since 1/3 take the bible totally literally, but almost half believe God created us within the last 10k years, leaving roughly 20% of americans who are non-literalist creationists?) Ungtss 04:10, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
For some background on the issue, I quote the Wisconsin-Madison, Dr. Ron Numbers on the history of the term "creationism":
Antievolutionists and Creationists
When the Origin of Species went on sale late in 1859, the term "creationist" commonly designated a person who believed in the special origination of a soul for each human fetus, as opposed to a traducianist, who believed that the souls of children were inherited from their parents. Although Darwin (in private) and his allies occasionally referred to their opponents as "creationists," for about seventy-five years after the publication of his book such adversaries were more typically called "advocates of creation" or, increasingly, "anti-evolutionists." This custom prevailed well into the twentieth century, in large part because antievolutionists remained united far more by their hostility to evolution than by any common commitment to a particular view of creation.
As late as the 1920s antievolutionists chose to dedicate their organizations to "Christian Fundamentals," "Anti-Evolution," and "Anti-False Science," not to creationism. It was not until 1929 that one of George McCready Price’s former students, the Seventh-day Adventist biologist Harold W. Clark, explicitly packaged Price’s new catastrophism as "creationism." In a brief self-published book titled Back to Creationism Clark urged readers to quit simply opposing evolution and to adopt the new "science of creationism," by which he meant Price’s flood geology. For decades to come various Christian groups, from flood geologists to theistic evolutionists, squabbled over which camp most deserved to use the creationist label. However, by the 1980s the flood geologists/scientific creationists had clearly co-opted the term for their distinctive interpretation of earth history.
The Creationist Revival after 1961
For a century after the publication of Charles Darwin’s Origin of Species (1859) antievolutionists were united almost solely by their antipathy to evolution, not by agreement on the mode of creation. Among Christian Fundamentalists in the twentieth century, three interpretations of Genesis 1 vied for acceptance: (1) the gap theory, which held that the first chapter of Genesis described two creations, the first "in the beginning," at some unspecified time in the distant past, the second about 6,000 years ago, when God created Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden; (2) the day-age theory, which equated the "days" of Genesis 1 with vast geological ages; and (3) the theory of flood geology, advocated by George McCready Price, which allowed for no life on earth before the Edenic creation and which assigned most of the fossil-bearing rocks to the catastrophic work of Noah’s flood. Until the early 1960s the vast majority of American Fundamentalists who left any record of their views on Genesis embraced either the gap or day-age schemes. Support for flood geology was limited largely to the small Seventh-day Adventist church, of which Price was a member.
This division of loyalties began to change dramatically with the publication in 1961 of The Genesis Flood by John C. Whitcomb, Jr., and Henry M. Morris, and the formation two years later of the Creation Research Society (CRS). Whitcomb, an Old Testament scholar, and Morris, a civil engineer, collaborated on an up-to-date presentation of Price’s flood geology that attracted considerable attention in conservative Christian circles. Their argument that science should accommodate revelation rather than vice versa resonated with the sentiments of many concerned Christians, who followed Whitcomb and Morris in jettisoning the gap and day-age theories as unholy compromises with naturalistic science.
In 1963 Morris joined nine other creationists with scientific training to form the CRS, an organization committed to the propagation of young-earth creationism. In the 1920s antievolutionists had lacked a single scientist with so much as a master’s degree in science. Their most impressive scientific authorities were a successful Canadian surgeon, a homeopathic medical-school dropout turned Presbyterian minister, a Seventh-day Adventist college instructor without an earned bachelor’s degree whose most advanced exposure to science had come in a course for elementary-school teachers, and a science professor at a small Fundamentalist college whose highest degree was a master’s awarded for a thesis on the teaching of penmanship in the public schools of two Midwestern towns. In contrast, five of the ten founding members of the CRS had earned Ph.D.’s in the biological sciences at reputable universities, and a sixth held a doctorate in biochemistry. Not all of the founders, however, possessed legitimate credentials. The only geologist in the group fraudulently claimed to have received a master’s degree.
About 1970, in an effort to sell their views as science and gain entry to public-school classrooms, these young-earth creationists renamed their beliefs creation science and dropped the label flood geology. Although two states, Arkansas and Louisiana, eventually passed laws mandating the teaching of creation science whenever evolution science was taught, the U. S. Supreme Court in 1987 ruled that such laws violated the First Amendment to the Constitution, requiring the separation of church and state. Despite this setback, the creation scientists flourished to the point that they virtually co-opted the term creationism for the formerly marginal ideas of Price. Public-opinion polls in the 1990s, though failing to distinguish young- from old-earth creationists, showed that forty-seven percent of Americans, including a quarter of college graduates, professed belief in the recent special creation of the first humans within the past 10,000 years. A hundred and forty years of evolution had left many Americans unconvinced.
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How's that? Ungtss 19:03, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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I think that discussion's just about thrashed the topic out—again! I'm sure we've been through this sort of discussion here before.
And by the way, the problem with first-past-the-post systems is that someone can win with less than 50% of the vote (or alternatively, this possibility tends to discourage multiple candidates so that there are only two candidates offering).
Philip J. Rayment 02:22, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The article currently says Among the scientific community, the age of the universe, the age of the Earth, and biological evolution are overwhelmingly considered to be the correct description of the origins of nature.
Two of the 3 don't make sense to me. Is this supposed to be the Big Bang, Giant impact theory, and biological evolution ? -- DavidCary 20:44, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The article currently says the option of teaching creationism in school has never been seriously considered in any Western European country.
This seems incorrect. I've been told that every school, in every European country, not only considered it, but exclusively taught creationism for centuries. It may be true that this option has never been considered in those contries for many years, since year ___N___. I expect N to be sometime after the book The Origin of Species (1859) was published, and before 2004. -- DavidCary 20:44, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The latest revision says "Creationism may be entirely based on theology (see creationist theology), entirely based on science (but often called pseudoscience by the vast majority of the scientific community who regard evolution as fact; see intelligent design), or on a mixture of both". I don't think this is adequate - most scientist (including this one) do not consider creationism pseudo-science because they consider evolution a fact (although most do), but because of the methods employed ("statements of faith", ignoring vast amounts of evidence, repeating refuted and easily refutable pseudo-facts, and so on). That it produces results in conflict with mainstream science is a symptom of its nature as pseudo science, not the reason for this designation. -- Stephan Schulz 23:03, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
where's the dispute? nobody's mentioned any pov complaints on the talkpage ... what's the problem, alai? Ungtss 22:02, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
i corrected the patently false statement that all roman catholics accept evolutionary creationism. it is "more than a hypothesis," but not an official position. Ungtss 15:16, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
the following was recently added to the page:
<<The level of interest in creationism in the United States is frequently referred to by Europeans who allege that American culture or education are inferior to that of Europe.>>
Why was the Giant impact theory included in the following sentence?
It is a very narrow theory that describes a vey particular event. I just don't see its relevance here.
Consider the following,
Whilst I can understand that "anti-creationist links" doesn't sound the best, "non-creationist links" sound to me like neutral sites (if such a thing is possible), whereas at least most of the links are to sites that are overtly anti-creationist. Is there a third way we can go that's better? If not, I'd prefer "anti-creationist links" as being more accurate. Philip J. Rayment 12:32, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The matter is not so much one of bias but description. Neither is really very descriptive. I propose the external link sections be entitled Creationist resources and Criticisms of creationism, or something of that ilk. -- FOo 17:28, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
How about pro/con? "Con-creationist" doesn't sound right, though, I guess.-- FeloniousMonk 19:41, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
What do people think of Creationist links (as now) and Sites opposed to creationism or Sites critical of creationism? Philip J. Rayment 01:59, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There, I hope all parties are happy. I did not check the context of the web pages but asumed material was organised in a pro-anti manner. -- Cool Cat My Talk 10:45, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Argh:
"is it really appropriate to state as fact what is in reality one opinion among two?" No, it wouldnt be - if we were dealing with 'one opinion among two'. We are not however, we are dealing with one theory based on the systematic accumulation of overwhelming evidence, and a belief based on something written by people ignorant of modern science over 2000 years ago. Aaarrrggh 20:34, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Aaarrrggh: You reverted my edit which said:
This replaced the wording which you placed in the article just before my edit of:
These both say the same thing, but from radically different perspectives. It would have been proper search for a NPOV way of saying the same thing rather than resorting to a juvenile, ad hominem attack, as you did.
Besides, your edits would be more appropriate for an article on "Creation Science" rather than about the subject of Creationism. Creationism is a view of the world, that should have a link to the "Creation Science" article. Creation Science is the proper place to discuss the controversy between it and the Macro Evolution theory. Val42 18:52, Feb 25, 2005 (UTC)
And as I stated above, it is not in the interests of neutrality to present this debate as being two sides of equal merit; not when one is based on evidence and the other on fancy. Aaarrrggh 20:34, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
the new section is great -- but it belongs on creation science, not here! this page doesn't need to have ANYTHING to do with science -- it's just the belief, in the raw. can we please move this section where it belongs? Ungtss 22:34, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Yet another Edit conflict; one of us is going to have to draw breath once in a while. Does this (and my new material) count as an adequate response? I think that the criticisms of creationsim are going to be in large part from the standpoint of the person who thinks that science offers us a better chance of finding the truth than accepting the claims of a book, so the stuff about science as a way of truth-discovery is relevant here, i think. I'd originally written:
I think you both have a point here; discussion of creation science isn't really to the point, but if the term is going to be referred to at all, some glossing of it is reasonable, lest this be read as endorsing a scientific basis for creation. A broader difficulty is that the scope of the article is notionally any belief in creator, of any sort (witness it glomping up Creator god recently), which almost any religious person is in theory obliged to sign up to. But the connotations of the term 'Creationism', and much of the body of the article, are much narrower, which makes it tempting to wheel in discussion of creation science. Alai 23:33, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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(Another two Edit conflicts; third time lucky) This isn't a comment on how you did [this was a response to a remark by Ungtss, which disappeared in one of the Edit conflicts</nowiki>]</nowiki>, and we might end up going back to something of the sort — but I think that this needs to be discussed a bit further before simply removing the Criticisms section. Either the article is going to be a one-sided presentation of the Creationist position, or it's going to include a section explaining the positions of those who reject that position. But such rejections are going to include – indeed, to be dominated by – the sort of criticism that I give in the article. That is, whether or not Creationism claims to be scientific, it's in conflict with what science says, and so the question must be asked: which should we accept? The answer of someone like Thomas Aquinas is clear; we should accept science, because it's based on reason; the Bible isn't therefore wrong, but it needs to be interpreted correctly. The view of the Creationist is to reject the scientific view.
I can (some time tomorrow or Sunday, because I have to get a moderately early night — I have an early start tomorrow) rewrite what I've got in order to lay more stress on this point than on the creation science point, but I think that – unless the article is to be hopelessly PoV – it needs something like this.
(OK, one last response: Rednblu is confusing naturalism vs non- or super-naturalism with rationalism vs non-rationalism. Ever since Kuhn, at least, it's been recognised that science is affected by non-rational (that is, extra-scientific) factors, but that has nothing to do with the question of naturalism. Soviet scientists weren't appealing to god, or spirits, or even the spooky forces of historical materialism. The problem with demanding citations for what I've been saying is that you'll find it in every book on the nature of science. A couple of examples: The Rationality of Science by Bill Newton-Smith, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas Kuhn, and The Philosophies of Science by Rom Harré.) Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:56, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This is to misunderstand the issue, but also to emphasise the need for the kind of section we're talking about.
As I said, I'll try to rework what I wrote in order to bring out the target more clearly, but something like it needs to be there. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:08, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
<<I'm trying to contribute to the article in order to improve it — to make it fuller and more balanced.>>
<<if religious beliefs conflict with science, then the religious beliefs should be reinterpreted or discarded. That is the explanation of why creationists are wrong.>>
<<What's odd about all this, of course, is that creationism is relatively new; it had been discarded by thinking Christians by the nineteenth century in favour of more sensible interpretations of the Bible, which didn't conflict with reason. Its current resurgence, in a particularly literalist form, can be traced to the early-twentieth century U.S., and there are all sorts of sociological and psychological explanations for that which the article ought to go into.>>
<<I'm not talking about creation science; that's largely just a cynical attempt to bypass U.S. constitutional bars on religion in schools, and it's difficult to believe that even its proponents believe any of the nonsense they spout. I'm talking about creationism itself — a view that is geographically and culturally limited even within the Christian religions.>>
As I said, I'll try to rework what I wrote in order to bring out the target more clearly, but something like it needs to be there. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:08, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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I've relocated the Criticisms of creationism to lower down on the page to allow the presentation of info likely more relevant to creationists themselves first. Feel free to change back if anyone objects.
I also added a sub-section to it addressing creationist claims to scientific mantle. It's important to address this in light of their claims, not least of which is made in the Defenses of Creationism section.-- FeloniousMonk 20:57, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
First, you seem to assume that the only part of science that opposes creationism is evolutionary biology; it isn't. The claim that the universe was created by a supernatural being is antithetical to science in general (and as a philosopher I'd also say that such a claim fails to be an explanation). Secondly, unless you're claiming that there are no objections to creationism (that the only objections are to so-called creation science), why do you object to having them aired in the article? (Oh, and thirdly, I suppose: why are you ignoring the argument that I offered above concerning the relevance of the arguments to creationism? Did they get lost in Rednblu's splutterings?) Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:44, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This whole Criticisms of Creationism section no more belongs on the Creationism page than the creationist counterpart of it would belong on the Evolution page. NPOV would require a paragraph or two to summarize the many wonderful details of science's criticisms of creationism that would be presented in all their splendor in the Creation-evolution controversy page. 8))
Hence, I move that the whole Criticisms of Creationism section be moved to the Creation-evolution controversy page with a short summary on the Creationism page with a link to the detail. --- Rednblu | Talk 22:32, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
alright, gentlemen, what is the framework for npov here?
Thoughts? Ungtss 22:42, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I'd think JS's reaction to some horribly POV additions on your part, rather than a scheme of his ex nihilo. What we should have a neutral summary of both POVs, not a battle to get in the last word. Alai 22:57, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Amid the controversy over "Creationist Science" vs. "Macro Evolution", a more relevant issue has been lost — that this page is Abrahamic-centered. That is, the page starts out general and gets more specifically oriented towards creationism as considered by the three Abrahamic-originating religions, then the page gets lost in the muck of the above debate. Other than the generalities, spoken of in the first two sections, there is nothing relevant to the creationism of other religions. I'm not talking just about the creation stories of the Norse, Greeks and Romans that we were taught in school, but those of other major religions of the world. How should we go about getting input from these other communities? Val42 03:26, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
... is pretty much self-defined, in its very own intro. Observe:
Grand; so far this must surely be the considerable majority of the world's population. I'm sure most, say, Italians'd agree with this (to pluck an arbitray example from nasty old secular Europe). They wouldn't necessarily have used the term 'creationist' to self-describe, but...
They do? Suddenly we've gone from almost all Italians, to about four of them.
So my point is simple: is this article defining creationists to be believers in a creator god, as implied by the majority of that paragraph, and by the recent merger of the article of that name? (Probably a very bad idea, in hindsight.) Or is it Abrahamic anti-Evolutionists? We'll never get a coherent article until we square this circle; we'll just (as at present) flip-flop between complaints about atheism and naturalism (which has really nothing to do with anything here) on the one hand, and what rotten science some specific sort of creationism is (of which the same may true, depending on said scope), and the hapless reader will be no wiser than had we just written "ALL YE WHO ENTER HERE, FLAMES WITHIN". Alai 04:42, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I've merged the two sections, omitting material only relevant to creationism as scientific (that might be transferred elsewhere, but I don't think that it belongs here). What's left is a set of criticisms, all found in the philosophical and scientific literature, either directly about creationism or about supernatutalist claims in general), which are relevant centrally to creationism as a theory about the origin (and nature) of the world, not to the claims that it's scientific. There's one aspect that really needs expansion (the point about the nature of explanation), but I need to think about that further, and check more sources, before I do anything. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 12:52, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Having changed this section, what now needs to be done is to remove all references in the rest of the article to claims that creationism is scientific, or has scientific validity. I assume that no-one can disagree with this, as the main complaint about the criticisms was that they focussed on creationism as science, and so belonged elsewhere.
Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:49, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Disregarding the the other biases in the article, I would have to say that quoting the PAW poll as greater than 50% support for teaching creationism is the same as quoting 99% support for teaching Christianity by defining 'teaching Christianity' as 'mentioning the Bible in class.' Historical and philisophical education is vastly different from scientific education.
First, the link to the wiki entry for Edwards v. Aguillard is right there (and I moved the quote there); second, this is in a section that was supposedly moved to a daughter page; it should be short.
I think we can reach a one or two sentence summary that we can agree upon. How about this:
Most recently, the Supreme Court has held in their ruling of Edwards_v._Aguillard that laws concerning theories of origins (even creationist ones) taught in public schools must have a secular purpose and scientific merit, using the test laid down in Lemon_v._Kurtzman.
- Fleacircus 20:56, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I removed:
The first phrase is redundant, the reference to "evangelical fundamentalists" is (what's the term?) perjorative?, it is no more associated with Fred Nile than many other people, I question whether it has any less social prominence than in the U.S.A, and from what I can gather, it hasn't achieved any legislative prominence in the U.S.A. anyway, with most legislative attempts being rejected. Philip J. Rayment 02:36, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In the edit of 20:20, 24 Nov 2004, something went wrong. Can somebody figure it out and fix it? --- Rednblu | Talk 06:56, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think it's ok now; I changed the Links section from <h4> to ====. Now the sections seem to work. --- Ben Standeven 02:41, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
---
I formatted the Creationism page in the standard Main Article summary and layout that is used, for example, in the Evolution and Human pages as has been discussed on this TalkPage for over a year. Please refer to the Creationism archives and subsequent discussions if you have any questions. :)) --- Rednblu | Talk 21:40, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Summaries of other articles shouldnt be here because it's redundant and can cause inconsistency when one of the pages covering the same subject changes while the other remains unchanged. Grice 10:57, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
---
Summaries of "Main articles" are the Wikipedia standard, as you can see in the Evolution and Human pages, just for two examples. Can you give me a Wikipedia example of a page where "Summaries of 'Main articles'" was considered by the Wikipedia community to be "redundant and causing inconsistency"? --- Rednblu | Talk 15:16, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've corrected sentence introducing Phillip E. Johnson to reflect that Phillip Johnson's claims are not general, but highly particular.-- FeloniousMonk 06:23, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Additionally, it would be in the article's interest to add some context around the Phillip E. Johnson bit with some of the opposing viewpoints for balance.-- FeloniousMonk 06:26, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It seems to me that this page is really poor. There isn't a well-defined use of the term "creationist". The opening paragraph seems to indicate that a creationist is someone who believes in Genesis creation. However, later on there are references to a 1997 Gallup poll that was completely neutral to whether the respondent was a believer in a Judeo-Christian formulation or some other formulation of theism. Furthermore, there are "creationists" who believe such things as the Earth and even the universe was "created" by aliens, for example. Is this a form of creationism? If not, then we should really define what exactly we are talking about. 67.172.158.8 17:56, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
you can't place yec as a straw-man in opposition to science -- that's one pov. the yec folks believe that science SUPPORTS a young earth. to set YEC in "opposition" to science in the first paragraph is pov ... and an especially damaging pov on a page like this. as to the "scientific consensus," it was Karl Popper who said, "I don't believe that success proves anything." Ungtss 00:49, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
In the UK certainly most people use the term YEC to describe those that assert that the scientific method would back up their beliefs. I'm sure there are those that take the belief without believing in the scientific method but are they common enough to warrant discussion? I reverted to Ungtss' version. Barnaby dawson 16:05, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There are definitely people who are YECs that use evidence other than that from science to back up their assertions. As such, the statement is too narrow to be correct. 67.172.158.8 18:00, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There seems to be some clamoring for a removal of the statement that most YECs are fundamentalists. This is surprising, because it is definitely one of the primary perspectives of every YEC I've ever met. 67.172.158.8 16:28, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
<<Do you actually evaluate the claims of geology, astronomy, chemistry, nuclear physics, etc. and find them wanting?>>
<<What references do you use to support your claims?>>
I have read Ungtss' comments and remain unimpressed. Here is the Wikipedia definition for YEC:
There is no account of any claim to science in the first paragraph. I will not take the time to debunk the incorrect science stated by user Ungtss, since he can edit any of the statements in the Wikipedia library if he were really to believe this (for example, he could edit the article on the conservation of angular momentum if he believes that there is no way to get rotation in astrophysical gas clouds), but I have edited the definition to my satisfaction. YEC relies either on a faith-based rejection of modern science (as pseudoscience or as naturalism or as secularism) but is not on the whole necessarily scientific.
As to the claim that there are no references to this, the reasonable thing to do is refer to self-described Young Earth Creationists. Polling makes no sense because the term is self-descriptive. I can refer to any number of websites that reject prevailing scientific notions of astronomy, geology, biology, physics, etc. in favor of Young Earth Creationism. As such, they necessarily reject scientific statements. I can also refer to most Young Earth Creationist literature as accepting a literal interpretation of Genesis. Therefore, I have justified my edits and will continue to maintain the position. 67.172.158.8 02:18, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
<<I have edited the definition to my satisfaction.>>
<<As to the claim that there are no references to this, the reasonable thing to do is refer to self-described Young Earth Creationists.>>
<<Young Earth creationism is the belief that the Earth and life on Earth were created by a direct action of God a relatively short time ago. The belief is held by the Christians, Jews, and Muslims who believe that the ancient Hebrew text of Genesis is a historical account.>>
<<This is beside the point. First, the unsubstantiated atheistic claim is merely an ad hominem for you to state, but the last sentence in the Age of the Earth article states it all. Just look into how the work was done and evaluated. It's very meticulous and you've obviously not read it.>>
Here is a link: [62] ~
(UTC)
From your site:
From my site:
The article is untractable and doesn't deal with the simple explanations provided. It is also the reason I reverted. Joshuaschroeder 23:16, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
i understand that. but you've only quoted the intro to my article, without even considering the length of it on isochron dating.
<<Potassium-argon dating, for example, assumes that minerals form with no argon in them. Since argon is an inert gas, it will usually be excluded from forming crystals.>>
perhaps if you'd read the article more thoroughly, you would have noticed this:
um ... would you care to justify the revert of an edit which added factual information without deleting anything? Ungtss 22:43, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
josh, what relevence do the stats on changing attitudes on biblical literalism and inerrancy have to do with creationism, since creationism is not dependent on either? (evident from the stats, since 1/3 take the bible totally literally, but almost half believe God created us within the last 10k years, leaving roughly 20% of americans who are non-literalist creationists?) Ungtss 04:10, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
For some background on the issue, I quote the Wisconsin-Madison, Dr. Ron Numbers on the history of the term "creationism":
Antievolutionists and Creationists
When the Origin of Species went on sale late in 1859, the term "creationist" commonly designated a person who believed in the special origination of a soul for each human fetus, as opposed to a traducianist, who believed that the souls of children were inherited from their parents. Although Darwin (in private) and his allies occasionally referred to their opponents as "creationists," for about seventy-five years after the publication of his book such adversaries were more typically called "advocates of creation" or, increasingly, "anti-evolutionists." This custom prevailed well into the twentieth century, in large part because antievolutionists remained united far more by their hostility to evolution than by any common commitment to a particular view of creation.
As late as the 1920s antievolutionists chose to dedicate their organizations to "Christian Fundamentals," "Anti-Evolution," and "Anti-False Science," not to creationism. It was not until 1929 that one of George McCready Price’s former students, the Seventh-day Adventist biologist Harold W. Clark, explicitly packaged Price’s new catastrophism as "creationism." In a brief self-published book titled Back to Creationism Clark urged readers to quit simply opposing evolution and to adopt the new "science of creationism," by which he meant Price’s flood geology. For decades to come various Christian groups, from flood geologists to theistic evolutionists, squabbled over which camp most deserved to use the creationist label. However, by the 1980s the flood geologists/scientific creationists had clearly co-opted the term for their distinctive interpretation of earth history.
The Creationist Revival after 1961
For a century after the publication of Charles Darwin’s Origin of Species (1859) antievolutionists were united almost solely by their antipathy to evolution, not by agreement on the mode of creation. Among Christian Fundamentalists in the twentieth century, three interpretations of Genesis 1 vied for acceptance: (1) the gap theory, which held that the first chapter of Genesis described two creations, the first "in the beginning," at some unspecified time in the distant past, the second about 6,000 years ago, when God created Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden; (2) the day-age theory, which equated the "days" of Genesis 1 with vast geological ages; and (3) the theory of flood geology, advocated by George McCready Price, which allowed for no life on earth before the Edenic creation and which assigned most of the fossil-bearing rocks to the catastrophic work of Noah’s flood. Until the early 1960s the vast majority of American Fundamentalists who left any record of their views on Genesis embraced either the gap or day-age schemes. Support for flood geology was limited largely to the small Seventh-day Adventist church, of which Price was a member.
This division of loyalties began to change dramatically with the publication in 1961 of The Genesis Flood by John C. Whitcomb, Jr., and Henry M. Morris, and the formation two years later of the Creation Research Society (CRS). Whitcomb, an Old Testament scholar, and Morris, a civil engineer, collaborated on an up-to-date presentation of Price’s flood geology that attracted considerable attention in conservative Christian circles. Their argument that science should accommodate revelation rather than vice versa resonated with the sentiments of many concerned Christians, who followed Whitcomb and Morris in jettisoning the gap and day-age theories as unholy compromises with naturalistic science.
In 1963 Morris joined nine other creationists with scientific training to form the CRS, an organization committed to the propagation of young-earth creationism. In the 1920s antievolutionists had lacked a single scientist with so much as a master’s degree in science. Their most impressive scientific authorities were a successful Canadian surgeon, a homeopathic medical-school dropout turned Presbyterian minister, a Seventh-day Adventist college instructor without an earned bachelor’s degree whose most advanced exposure to science had come in a course for elementary-school teachers, and a science professor at a small Fundamentalist college whose highest degree was a master’s awarded for a thesis on the teaching of penmanship in the public schools of two Midwestern towns. In contrast, five of the ten founding members of the CRS had earned Ph.D.’s in the biological sciences at reputable universities, and a sixth held a doctorate in biochemistry. Not all of the founders, however, possessed legitimate credentials. The only geologist in the group fraudulently claimed to have received a master’s degree.
About 1970, in an effort to sell their views as science and gain entry to public-school classrooms, these young-earth creationists renamed their beliefs creation science and dropped the label flood geology. Although two states, Arkansas and Louisiana, eventually passed laws mandating the teaching of creation science whenever evolution science was taught, the U. S. Supreme Court in 1987 ruled that such laws violated the First Amendment to the Constitution, requiring the separation of church and state. Despite this setback, the creation scientists flourished to the point that they virtually co-opted the term creationism for the formerly marginal ideas of Price. Public-opinion polls in the 1990s, though failing to distinguish young- from old-earth creationists, showed that forty-seven percent of Americans, including a quarter of college graduates, professed belief in the recent special creation of the first humans within the past 10,000 years. A hundred and forty years of evolution had left many Americans unconvinced.
---
How's that? Ungtss 19:03, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
---
I think that discussion's just about thrashed the topic out—again! I'm sure we've been through this sort of discussion here before.
And by the way, the problem with first-past-the-post systems is that someone can win with less than 50% of the vote (or alternatively, this possibility tends to discourage multiple candidates so that there are only two candidates offering).
Philip J. Rayment 02:22, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The article currently says Among the scientific community, the age of the universe, the age of the Earth, and biological evolution are overwhelmingly considered to be the correct description of the origins of nature.
Two of the 3 don't make sense to me. Is this supposed to be the Big Bang, Giant impact theory, and biological evolution ? -- DavidCary 20:44, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The article currently says the option of teaching creationism in school has never been seriously considered in any Western European country.
This seems incorrect. I've been told that every school, in every European country, not only considered it, but exclusively taught creationism for centuries. It may be true that this option has never been considered in those contries for many years, since year ___N___. I expect N to be sometime after the book The Origin of Species (1859) was published, and before 2004. -- DavidCary 20:44, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The latest revision says "Creationism may be entirely based on theology (see creationist theology), entirely based on science (but often called pseudoscience by the vast majority of the scientific community who regard evolution as fact; see intelligent design), or on a mixture of both". I don't think this is adequate - most scientist (including this one) do not consider creationism pseudo-science because they consider evolution a fact (although most do), but because of the methods employed ("statements of faith", ignoring vast amounts of evidence, repeating refuted and easily refutable pseudo-facts, and so on). That it produces results in conflict with mainstream science is a symptom of its nature as pseudo science, not the reason for this designation. -- Stephan Schulz 23:03, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
where's the dispute? nobody's mentioned any pov complaints on the talkpage ... what's the problem, alai? Ungtss 22:02, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
i corrected the patently false statement that all roman catholics accept evolutionary creationism. it is "more than a hypothesis," but not an official position. Ungtss 15:16, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
the following was recently added to the page:
<<The level of interest in creationism in the United States is frequently referred to by Europeans who allege that American culture or education are inferior to that of Europe.>>
Why was the Giant impact theory included in the following sentence?
It is a very narrow theory that describes a vey particular event. I just don't see its relevance here.
Consider the following,
Gentlemen, we had it. we had an npov description of creationism. we had it. there were no edit wars. there was no discussion. then our find friend ARGH came in with his ideology, and here we are again. the page is PANTS! what is the framework for this page? is the framework to deconstruct it or describe it? thoughts? Ungtss 15:17, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
But is creationism a "view, rather than an anti-view"? In the modern sense of the word, I usually see creationism used to refer to a religion-based critique of evolutionary science. Science proposes and refines detailed accounts of how species developed. Creationists, by and large, do not offer a detailed account of the process they believe occurred. Indeed, they deny that such an account is possible -- we cannot know the mind of God. Rather, creationists reject and cast doubt upon the scientific accounts.
There does not appear to be a theory (in the sense of a complex, working body of knowledge) of creationism. Theologically, after all, such a theory would seem to be untenable; it would purport to offer an explanation of the purposes and ways of God, which are not for humans to know. Rather, creationists have proposed a series of what they see as weaknesses or failings of evolutionary theory: early on, that it was in contradiction with received religious belief, and associated with atheism; later, criticisms of specific accounts offered by biology, such as the possibility of beneficial mutation and the descent of one species from another.
I do not intend this view of creationism as a critique of evolution to be derogatory of creationism. To make an analogy, creationism is to biological science what atheism is to (theistic) religion. Atheism does not attempt to be a religion, or to offer alternatives to religious belief and practice. Rather, it offers criticisms of religion and proposes reasons not to believe and practice religion. Likewise, creationism (when propounded honestly) does not pretend to fill the role of evolutionary science, but rather proposes reasons not to believe in it. Just as atheism is not a religion but rather an opposition to religion, so is creationism likewise an "anti-view" of sorts. -- FOo 18:28, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Can't we simply do the following: remove all references to creation science from the introduction. Later simply state there's a "disputed basis" or something to that effect in creation science; and move all boosterism or criticism of creationism as science to that article? The reference in the intro is flawed in any case, as it invites us to believe that there's a significant body of people who are completely convinced of creationism by creation science, and have no religious conviction whatsoever. Alai 18:24, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
First of all, let's start with this sentence: Creationists hold beliefs that may be based on creationist theology, creation science, or a combination of the two. As I said, I think this is misleading, as it gives the impression we're (to some notable degree) describing people who believe in creationism from creation science exclusively. At the least, if we have to say something like this, let's not say it in the article lead, where it has an inappropriate definitional character. Alai 19:10, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Just thought I would add this section to the talk page now rather than to start a frantic edit war, as many people seem to be chopping and changing right at this very moment. My position on this issue is as I stated above; I agree with the sentiment that creationism does indeed reject mainstream scientific methodology and discoveries, but that in an enyclopedia introduction it may be better to state this without making it part of the definition. I will await responses from other people before making changes to this. Aaarrrggh 18:42, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I removed the following paranthetical statement
The hypothesis that chimps and gorillas are the closing living relatives to humans could have been falsified. It could be have been falsified by fossil evidence indicating continuity between humans and some other living creature, and it could have been falsified by DNA evidence such as the sequence of ribosomal RNA.
Perhaps this was just poorly written, and the author meant to indicate that the idea of common ancestry in general is unfalsifiable. I'd bet that it is falsifiable, but I don't have the evidence at hand right now. If this is truly what the author meant, I think that it would be better to write ("such as the common ancestry of all life").
AdamRetchless 21:35, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Reverted to older edit, recent changes not warranted, user must explain why he thinks they are.
Well, that wasn't exactly the most productive contribution to discussion either, was it? Why are said changes 'unwarranted', and why do you assume Mel is under some greater obligation to explain his edits than you are? Frankly, anything that can be done to help clean up the point-for-point mess in that section can't be all bad... Alai 05:42, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure that anything significant has been omitted, but I'll look again. The point about consistency is made in the criticisms; repeating it here is surely unnecessary. I didn't really think that the (underdescribed) moon-dust example or the (dubiously relevant) Clarke quotation helped; does anyone else have thoughts on this? I do agree on the monotonous “mainstream proponents” — some of my edits got rid of a few examples, and I hope to get rid of more. The two sections need streamlining, not further bloating, though, so I don't want to add more text if at all possible. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:57, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This Criticisms of Creationism section is atrocious! When I was in high school and looking for good arguments to take down Reverend Miller, I would have laughed even harder than I laugh at this unsubstantiated, undocumented, and uncited personal research now. These "criticisms" are not criticisms but rather nonsense that does not even score points.
You are kidding! You are joking! Creationism in the United States has mutated into the most dangerous form of virulent politics you can imagine. And that political mutation is spreading quickly around the world. Proof is no longer needed. Faith is not even needed. All the mutated creationism needs is Fox News to do all the hard selling--and the voters buy it.
Well now! What is this! Some wonderful personal meditation? Baring your souls are ye? Bertrand Russell would roll his eyes at his personal research. This has nothing to do with "Creationism." And creationism is not about "truth." Go read your Bible; it is not about "truth." What are all of these personal research meditations doing on this page? It is outrageous.
Novelists? Is "creationism" about novelists? This is ridiculous. This encyclopedia is supposed to summarize the wisdom of the ages, and you dare to write this personal research here about novelists? Why not paraphrase the arguments of Richard Dawkins or Robert Ingersoll? Those two guys actually win games against "creationism." Do you need some links to find them? This Criticisms of Creationism section of personal research does not even score points about anything--let alone against "creationism."
God Almighty! What scientist are you talking about? What Nobel Prize winner ever admitted "to going wrong, to fumbling towards the truth"? Nope. Would Isaac Newton admit that special relativity proved him wrong? Nope. Newton produced formulas only for the speeds that he observed. Would Charles Darwin admit that Watson and Crick proved him wrong? Nope. Darwin produced theories only on what he had observed so far. The Criticisms of Creationism section makes no logical sense. Even if scientists somewhere admitted to going wrong that would not mark anything or anyone as being "genuine discoverers" of anything. The Criticisms of Creationism section is nonsense personal research and should be deleted. If you want a short paragraph of criticisms of creationism, I suggest you be encyclopedic and report what actual scholars who knew what they were talking about actually said. Enough of this undocumented, uncited, and illogical personal research. --- Rednblu | Talk 21:05, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Right. I am telling you as clearly as I can that what you have written in the "Criticisms" section fails outside your office. It is not about Creationism. It does not make sense. And you will find no scholar of any discipline who agrees that any one of your five points above has anything to do with "Creationism." While those five points might be interesting if you published an exposition of those five points in The British Journal for the Philosophy of Science, the summaries of those five points you have made here and on the Creationism page do not pass minimal Wikipedia logic and relevancy standards. I'm sorry to tell you the truth. --- Rednblu | Talk 23:01, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The subject of this page is Creationism; that's what it's about; Creationism is its primary focus. How else can I put it? The nature of the article is consistent with this. It is not about the debate between creationism and anything, though that will naturally feature in it, because it's a pertinent fact about creationism. The insistence on describing it otherwise is either PoV or simply perplexing. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 08:44, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Firstly, I think that putting the link to Creation belief at the bottom of the page would be inadequate. I think that it works better at the the top because of what I said above; if someone is looking for that page, then a disambiguation-like link would serve them best.
Secondly, there have been various attempts to define this page before. If this page is about creation belief, then it should be merged with that page. If this page is about the debate between those who believe in a theistic creationism (whether by theistic evolution or not) or non-theistic (naturalistic) creation, then it should be merged with that page. When I first came here, it was the former. Now it is the later. The people who are editing this page seem more interested in pushing one part of the argument or the other than in being helpful.
If this page is one of the above (clearly distingushed) purposes I put forward above, please merge the information in to the appropriate pages. If this page does not fit what I've defined above, please clearly say what it is and why it doesn't belong in either of the above categories. Right now, I'm being frustrated and trying to be helpful at the same time. I'd ask that in your own frustration, try to be helpful at the same time. Val42 04:02, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)
--- Rednblu | Talk 04:47, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
--- Val42 05:25, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)
8)) If you remove "myth" from the Creation beliefs sentence, then you probably should take out "scientific" from the first sentence. Maybe something like the following.
What do you think? --- Rednblu | Talk 07:26, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I move that we put the following initial disambiguation paragraph at the top of the Creationism page.
What does everybody think? --- Rednblu | Talk 03:50, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Support - See discussion just before this section. Val42 03:57, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)
These two terms do not seem to actually refer to different positions. The difference seems solely to be that some people do not feel comfortable calling that position "creationism", and others do not feel comfortable calling it "evolution". That is not a good guideline for which term is more descriptive.
What difference is there between this view and that of biological science? In terms of scientific methodology and description of the material world, there can be none -- specifically because E.C./T.E. accepts the scientific results of evolutionary biology. Rather, E.C./T.E. represents a philosophical (or perhaps, theological) position on the meaning of the scientific results. It sees evolution as evidence for the philosophical position of theism. This is in contrast with those who see evolution as evidence against theism.
E.C./T.E. is not "creationism" in the sense of any of the other beliefs we herein describe as "creationism", specifically because it does not represent a denial or rejection of evolution. All the other things we call "creationism" are rejections of evolutionary science. They claim that evolution did not happen. Because E.C./T.E. does not take this position, it strikes me as rather confusing to class it as a "creationism" at all.
The name theistic evolution is less ambiguous and avoids the confusion of having something called "creationism" that is not anti-evolution. It also happens to be (from the crude metric of a Google search) the rather more common term.
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Pollinator"
Concerning the edit ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Creationism&diff=10946981&oldid=10946496) that I made to the Creationism article, I removed the statement that "those who, under the guise of science, make the religious assumption/statement that there is no God" not because I disagree with that opinion, but because it is an opinion. If your intent was to present this as an opinion of a certain group, I think you should make your intent more clear in the article. For example, you could write "Evolutionary creationism has no dispute with the scientific theory of evolution either, but disputes (materialistic) evolutionists (who some evolutionary creationists believe act under the guise of science, and that the statement that there is no God is a religious one)." Since your reversion of my edit, user:Fubar Obfusco has edited ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Creationism&diff=0&oldid=10954413) the paragraph in question to fix this problem quite nicely, I think. --NoPetrol 22:52, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I don't know. I am asking what the rules are. There are several possibilities.
There are other alternatives between those two extremes. So under what rules are we operating here, I ask? --- Rednblu | Talk 23:56, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Joshuaschroeder 00:30, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have rewritten some of the section on the criticism of creationism. More specifically, I have removed the part on Rene Descartes (because I do not see it as being particularly relevance) and rephrased some of the criticism. Please comment on the latest edit, thank you. Ethereal 09:58, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)
I haven't had much time to read through the entire article at one sitting, but looking at the section on Defences of Creationism, I should say that I find that certain crucial arguments routinely employed by creationists are lacking. One of the missing arguments I feel should be included would be that creationism is just as scientific as evolutionary theory. Indeed the section opens with an attack on science (not specifically evolutionary science), and questions the nature of science itself. Clearly proponents of creationism wanting their theories to be taught in the classrooms alongside evolution all would argue vociferously that creationism is scientific too. Furthermore, within the section, there is no mention of intelligent design (ID) theory (quite a prominent creationist movement) as well. There is only passing mention of arguments for ID theory such as irreducible complexity, creationist biology, specified complexity and much of the section focuses on a point-by-point argument and rebuttal format.
Moreover, there are some rather alien arguments present within the section such as creationists charging that "naturalistic explanations are fundamentally inadequate" because "because the models require violations of the laws of nature at the most fundamental level, while creationism allows for an explanation that, although not observable, at least allows for consistency with the laws of nature". The next sentence goes on to say that scientists counter there is no evidence there was any violation of the laws of physics. Huh? What does this mean? Did someone mix up creationist and evolutionist arguments? I have personally never come across such arguments while reading creationist books. The last sentence is also worded strangely (what exactly does it mean?):
Apart from all this, there is also the endless repetition of "mainstream proponents" just about everywhere in the section, and no mention of any specific criticism of evolutionary arguments such as the fossil record, problems with specific accounts of abiogenesis, geological arguments etc. If anyone thinks that such should be included in the article on evolution rather than here, no, they're not there. In fact the paucity of "mainstream creationist" arguments here surprises me. I actually learned more about creationist arguments from talkorigins.org (pro-evolution website) than here.
Finally, before the evolutionists start spewing vile ad-hominem epithets against me, please note that I am an evolutionist and am firmly against all kinds of creationist crap. Nevertheless, I do not believe it is appropriate for evolutionists to present a strawman out of creationism. Knock them down as they are! There's no need to stoop so low. I can attempt a rewrite of this section over the next few days (if I have time), but I'm afraid I know more about anti-creationist arguments than pro-creationist ones so I am of limited help here. Ethereal 11:09, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)
I'm beginning to think of just leaving all these polarised articles to the squabbling sides; why is it that it's impossible to make a simple comment without its being taken as a statement of some definite point of view to be aggressively defended against? I was simply explaining the genesis of the section to which you were referring, the reasons for its present state, and the arguments offered at the time. In fact, if you'd read the previous discussions, you'd have seen that I don't think that it's OK as it stands. (I don't however, think that defences of creationism as having scientific status belong here; they're surely relevant to creation science, not to creationism.)
As for ad hominem; an ad hominem argument is one that tries to attack a belief held by a certain person by showing that it contradicts some other belief held by that person — in other words, it doesn't really show that the belief is false, only (at best) that a certain person shouldn't hold it. The term is sometimes used more loosely to refer to the attempt to attack a belief merely by attacking the character of a person who holds it. On Wikipedia and elsewhere it's too often used simply refer to any personal attack or even minor incivility. I'd just prefer to see it used properly. As I said, a minor point, but important if one values clarity. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 15:16, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Over the past few years the introduction to this article had been dangerously overwritten! It was dense, and hard for a newcomer to the subject to understand. Detailed discussions are best done within the heart of the article, not in the vert first paragraph. In line with the editing practice on hundreds of other Wikipedia articles, I made two edits. (A) I simplified the intro, without trying to change any of the ideas. (B) I placed the most common definition first, and the less common definition of the term second. RK 12:15, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)
The section on geocentric creationism under types of creationism mentions the Creation Science Association for Mid-America as an example. I went to their website, and while they seem to strongly beleive in creationism a la Genesis, I could find no mention them believing in geocentric, perfectly spherical world. Now, I'm not familiar with their organization, so I suppose it is possible that they do believe in such. But it would be nice to be able to find evidence of that if we want to keep it in the article. DaveTheRed 01:46, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
We've got enough to contend with here; could we refrain from getting into arguments about whether the article should be in U.S. or U.K. English? I read through the 'Defences' section, and it seems to be in U.K. English, so that that spelling of the title is appropriate. If there's good reason to change the whole thing, fine — but let's get the content sorted out first. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 09:12, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've just removed the following (added by 138.26.60.37:
If it were to stay it would obviously need putting into correct English, but does it belong here at all? Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 21:52, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
(For a continuation of this conversation, see
/Talk.)