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absolutely unacceptable copyvio and pov. i do wish those editors claiming to be rationalists would not allow such ridiculous edits by our friendly neighborhood pov warrior to go unchecked. Ungtss 23:28, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps it is well to remember that all of us are in search of the truth as best as we can understand it. Creation theory rests on an axiom and scientific theories rest on axioms. Scientific theories rest on axioms which are either evident in nature, or logically necessary, occasionally "guesses" partially supported by either two. Creation theories rest upon the axiom that a creator exists. Science provides detailed explanations for its axioms, explanations that depend upon logic, and further, points out axioms which currently lack proof. It is constantly struggling with itself concerning all these axioms. Indeed, the most celebrated scientists are those who have done the most to supplant long established theories from Copernicus to Newton and Einstein. In this science can be shown to be self critical, demanding intellectual honesty and humility to such an extent that scientists are willing to accept the possibility that creation theories may indeed be correct despite all their efforts. It is in challenging longstanding axioms that we as humans show our quality, our doubt in all things, which reveals our nature, and to do so we are only being honest. The scientific community does not so much take issue with creation theories as it does with it's methods, it's willingness to accept some scientific evidence but not other, obviously based upon the need for a predetermined result, a logically untenable position. Creation theories are dogmatic regarding it's axioms, condemning as sin any doubt. It is as this point that creation theories break down in terms of integrity, logic and eventually believability. Science in general has much to say about its own limitation, particularly since the paper on the incompleteness theorem and Stephen Hawking's paper on the big bang theory, both of which draw clear limits on how far our understanding may reasonably go at this point in time. Therefore, there is room for a creator in scientific theories, it is not atheistic but agnostic, a "psychologically honest" pursuit where we all together wrestle with our demons of doubt. -(61.68.16.158)
Once again Ungtss proves that he has no clue as to what "mainstream scientists" do. Bensaccount 21:15, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
I've noticed that on several occasions now Ec5618's attempts to edit the article are quickly reverted, first by Bensaccount, later by Ungtss. Consider that if Ec5618 is able to offend both sides of the debate he must be nearing some truth. Much of Ec5618's points seem well-reasoned and factual and not the "misinformation" being suggested. I'll be working to roll some of his more salient points into the article, or supporting Ec5618 doing it himself. FeloniousMonk 04:46, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
In my opinion, Ec5618 is another mislead religious zealot pretending to be neutral. Like User:Rednblu. Bensaccount 21:00, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
From way above, Ben wrote: "Ungtss has rightly pointed out that consensus science is fundamentally meaningless." This statement is wrong, simply because the term fundamentally meaningless is so completely overloaded with both religious (Ungtss) and scientific (Ben) notions of absolutism. The "consensus" in science is not ever meant to represent "truth" or even "scientific proof," rather it means a tacit consensus for the current time, based on existing proofs and related experiments. Ungtss use of the word "meaningless" merely meant that consensus ≠ (religious) truth. Ben's use of the "meaningless" means consensus ≠ (scientific) proof. But MU ≠ MB, just as truth ≠ proof. - SV| t 01:00, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
The message I was trying to get across was that saying "CS is rejected by scientists" is not the same as saying "CS is not science". Don't mix up scientific absolutism with religious absolutism. The former is an oxymoron, while the latter is not. Bensaccount 05:00, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Like many other terms, creation science has the word 'science' in it. To many people, this suggests some sort of science-connection. If that connection does not exist, we should explain it in the intro, and 'clearly' 'mark' any mention of 'science'.
If there is valid (absolute) reason to allow the use of 'creation science' to mean the (more) scientific branch of creationism, we should allow it. We should then merely note that 'creation science' is not considered to be 'science' by non-creationists, as it does not, ever, follow the scientific method.
So, (NPOV), which is it? -- Ec5618 08:03, May 25, 2005 (UTC)
Ec5618 exhibits a common misunderstanding of NPOV: "attributing lies to liars and truth to everyone else gives neutrality and makes for a good article". This is incredibly wrong, as giving lies equal say does not take precedence over stating the facts simply and clearly when they are known and straightforeward. Bensaccount 15:15, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Creation science really has its roots in the writing of textbooks and apologetics works (such as "Scientific Creationism") which were meant to respond to the real beating creationists took after the Scopes Trial. The intellectual history of the United States is really tied up with the use of the term "Creation Science" -- an idea that was developed so as to allow the creationist to believe that they had monopoly on all truth, both evangelical and scientific. To this end, "creation science" is only more "scientific" in that it is a new way of describing creationism. Wikipedia has, by consensus, decided to use it as a repository for pseudoscientific arguments used by creationists to back up their claims (that is, arguments used by creationists that are not simply faith claims but rather use the trappings of scientific language to prove their points such as flood geology). It should be noted that most people do not see a distinction between creationism and creation science. Joshuaschroeder 10:46, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't know how this article got to be how it is, perhaps vandalism, I don't know. Even the very first parapraph has nothing bordering on a NPOV. Let's take a look:
First, Creation science is not an ideology. It might have an ideology, but Creation Science is a field of study, just like Sacred Theology is a field of study. It might be a field of study that has prior suppositions different from what you might like, but one cannot identify a field with its axioms.
Second, calling it unscientific is clearly not a neutral point of view. No reasonable person would consider that a neutral viewpoint.
Thirdly, it does not take scripture as an a priori source. It takes scripture as a motivation.
This paragraph shows an ignorant editor.
6 Obvious NPOV violations and/or fallacious items in 2 sentences. It would takes days to clean this up properly. Perhaps someone who knows something about creation science should be writing this article instead of a cadre of people trying to stultify it
Phantym 21:37, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, but even "creation scientists" don't dispute that CS does not allow for any explanation that contradicts the account in Genesis; that's why it's called "creation science", and "Answers in Genesis" and all that.
By disallowing objective criticism of evidence against Genesis, CS disallows objective criticism. Since CS dismisses any interpretation of evidence counter to Genesis, it is not practicing the scientific method. Your reasoning is flawed. FeloniousMonk 22:36, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
The point more clearly stated is that "CS is unscientific", and that unless the article says so (without attributing it to its detractors) it is biased propaganda. Bensaccount 15:32, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Of course they are lying. You wouldn't say "according to its detractors, the holocaust was a genocide". Thats what it was. Stop with the bullshit (haha superfast decay of all helium is scientific...who are you kidding, it would vaporize the planet). Bensaccount 15:54, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
There is no truth here because people like you and Ungtss wont allow it. This is not something to be proud of. Bensaccount 20:51, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Misguided mortals such as yourself Dan. I seriously think that if AiG told you to jump off a bridge you would do so without giving it a second thought. Bensaccount 15:45, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Saying that creation science is evil is a value judgement. Saying that it is unscientific is a fact. Theres a big difference. Lets review this theme of "lies" which you have created Ec5618. You said that you don't think anything written here is the truth. If nothing you write is true, what do you need a list for. Bensaccount 21:22, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
I probably shouldn't enter this converation since i haven't been part of it at all. But what exactly are the creationists lying about?? Falphin 00:32, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
Due to the high number of unexplained reversions so far, I have created a section that you should use to address your upcoming reversions Ec, Ungtss, Dan (and anyone else who wants to remove the truth and replace it with POVs). You have so far been unable to provide a reason. Please do so here. "restoring propoganda" or "bensaccount needs to take a breath" dont really count. Bensaccount 16:32, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
I am removing the POV that CS is scientific and replacing it with the fact that it is not. You have not even mentioned my edits never mind explained your reversions.
You have not addressed my edit (informing that CS is unscientific). Therefore I will add it again. Next time I hope you will provide an explanation instead of just mindlessly reverting. Bensaccount 16:46, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
I am not insisting that your version is claiming that CS is scientific. I said that it included this POV. NPOV, however, says that articles should be written from a NEUTRAL POV, not any 1 or 2 specific POV's. The rest of the above rant is equally misleading. Is that quote your way of saying I am biased? As usual it is unclear what you mean, so your points are wasted. I am not biased btw. CS is not science. Bensaccount 18:05, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
Just out of curiosity, are you user:Rednblu? Anyways, just because NPOV does not assume it doesn't mean it is impossible, there may be cases where it is impossible to decide what is objective and what is not. When it is possible, however, it should, by all means, be done. Stop twisting around policy to suit yourself. Bensaccount 18:18, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
Rossnixon has made the claim that one day maybe a different explanation for the vast distances of space and the incredible light-transit times will be discovered. Inasmuch as all of reality is subject to falsification, he is correct. However, it is just as inappropriate to place "evidently" as a modifier to this scientific observation as it would be to state that "evidently" electricity is the result of the movement of electrons. Just as this is a scientific fact, so is light travel time. On this there can be no dispute. Joshuaschroeder 10:34, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
If Rossnixon can post a scientific observation to the contrary that any individual galaxy beyond our local group does not exhibit this characteristic -- just one single observation -- then we might say that there is a legitimate case to be made for a modifier to be placed regarding a supposed controversy. But barring this we must conclude that his insertion is a means to promoting a creationist agenda and should be eschewed on Wikipedia. Joshuaschroeder 11:17, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Ec has made the bold (and incorrect) editorial claim that although the light is from distant galaxies the transit time is disputed. This is not the case. The transit time for light is a fact and what creationists who worry about the age of the universe are trying to do is invent excuses for why this is so. The ways they try to do this is outlined in the main article. There is absolutely no disputing light travel time as an observed effect. It isn't just an "appearance", it isn't just "according to scientists", it is an observed feature of the universe. End of story. If you want to say that some creationists dispute this fact, that's fine, but the fact itself is inviolable from an observational perspective (and no, that doesn't mean it's an "apparent" fact). Joshuaschroeder 13:34, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
I plan on doing a massive rewrite of this page. It might not matter if Bensaccount continues to revert the many reasonable edits being made by sensible editors, but I hope that a differnt format will prove less POV.
There are two particular problems with the current page [other than the pervasive POV that comes from Ben],
Imagine how silly it would be to say "Modern science is not science because it is based on uniformitarianism, which cannot be proved." Such a statement would show a grave misunderstanding of the paradigm modern science operates from."
I hope you guys are willing to give the new version ao good try.
Phantym 05:58, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Can we discuss the rewrite here /Phantym rewrite proposal/talk. Phantym 17:24, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Preceding this discussion was a lengthy brawl which has previously been archived.
In passing up your opportunity to convince those who disagree, you move from discussing to trolling. Bensaccount 14:59, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
But if everyone knows you are biased, and you make no attempt to convince them that your edits are not biased you are no longer helping article development, you are simply spamming your biases. Bensaccount 17:20, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
Since you are unwilling or unable to convince anyone otherwise, it is fair to say that premise is true. Bensaccount 21:19, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
According to this website, when Lammerts examined three-year-old bristlecone pine trees which had been deprived of water for three weeks in August, followed by normal watering during a warm month in September, he found that they had three growth rings instead of the two expected. Four-year-old bristlecone pines similarly treated exhibited four growth rings instead of the three found for similar plants whose growth was not interrupted by depriving them of water for two to three weeks in August.
In other words, these plants were deprived of water for three weeks, and (if you can believe him despite the complete lack of data) they lost one single growth ring.
Now firstly, different factors such as location, temperature, moisture, soil thickness, soil type, susceptibility to fire, susceptibility to wind, and the amount of sunlight received all are controlled variables that effect tree growth. Thus if you are trying to disprove a dating method, you have to use trees that have undergone the same conditions as the ones in the original dating procedure. The growth-ring analysis of bristlecone pine trees are done in the White Mountains, and they turn up negligible number of cases where there was even a trace of extra rings. In fact, the case for partially or totally missing rings is much more impressive. A typical bristlecone pine has up to 5 percent of its rings missing (Weber, 1982, p.25). Thus, if anything, one is likely to get a date that is too young! A careful statistical study, of course, minimizes even that problem.
Creationists sometimes seize upon such isolated facts in their desperate bid to discredit tree-ring dating. However, their failure to use repeatable controls gives results that can depend on any outside factor. This is not scientific experimentation. This is propaganda, meant to look like actual research but with no actual basis on experimentation. Bensaccount 14:55, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Creation science is discredited due to its complete lack of scientific experimentation or observation. How is that the same as Christians discrediting Einstein because he was Jewish even though his theories were scientific. Bensaccount 14:31, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Maybe they were Jewish Nazis. If you are unsure of these definitions use a dictionary, they are fairly standard. Bensaccount 15:19, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Ec5618 Had archived the discussion above before it had run its course. Previously: "Creation Science does not involve experimental investigation." - Bensaccount
I don't know this literature but it looks to me as though Lammerts (or perhaps Gish) has confused the dating of some Bristlecone Pines to c. 7000 BC with the maximum age of these trees, which is actuallly c. 9000 years. Lammert adjusts the figure of 7000 years to 5600 to make it more consistent with a young earth perspective. The real scientific literature can be accessed here [12] Ian Pitchford 19:56, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
See Ferguson, C. W. (1968). "Bristlecone Pine: Science and Esthetics." Science 159(3817): 839-846. "In certain species of conifers, especially those at lower elevations or in southern latitudes, one season's growth increment may be composed of two or more flushes of growth, each of which may strongly resemble an annual ring. Such multiple growth rings are extremely rare in bristlecone pines, however, and they are especially infrequent at the elevation and latitude (37° 20' N) of the sites being studied. In the growth-ring analyses of approximately one thousand trees in the White Mountains, we have, in fact, found no more than three or four occurrences of even incipient multiple growth layers." (p. 840) - Also, "A bigger problem is missing rings; a bristlecone pine can have up to 5 percent of its rings missing. Thus, dates derived from dendrochronology, if they are suspect at all, should indicate ages too young." [13] Ian Pitchford 21:18, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
The article you cite is just a claim by Gish about what Lammerts is supposed to have done. If Lammerts did the work he should have published it in an appropriate journal where it could have been studied and replicated by experts in the field. The scientific evidence on bristlecone pines does not lend any support to a YEC perspective. The bristlecone pine chronology extends back 9000 years not 7000 years and there are (may be) living things much older than bristlecone pines, e.g c. 11,700 year old creosote bushes [14]. Ian Pitchford 11:05, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This discussion was not continued in the EvoWiki, but a brief dialogue can be found on
User talk:Bensaccount#Creation science. (
[16]--
Ec5618 09:29, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
I'm growing tired of the rambling, repetitive discussions that seem to fill this page. It is not our job to either prove nor ridicule 'creation science'. Whether or not an argument holds water is important though, but these discussions seem to provide little conclusion.
The /Phantym rewrite proposal lists a long list of common arguments made by creationists, without refutation by 'secular' scientists however. We could probably fill another article with the arguments made by creationists to disprove evolution, with the arguments made by evolutionists to refute those claims, with the arguments made by creationists to refute those again.
My suggestion: we create a new article (or simply build upon the /Phantym rewrite proposal for now). In it, we list the arguments made by creationists to object to evolution, and the arguments made by non-evolutionists (oh, alright, 'evolutionists') to object to creation. We first list a statement, including any quotes, then list (*) an argument opposing it, and so on. Creationists and evolutionists could test their argumentation against peer review.
My question to you all:
(oh, and please answer these questions softly to yourself, or in your own post somewhere below this one)
For an example of what I mean we need only look to the above section. A better example can perhaps be found in the often heard allegation that 'many scientists are starting to turn starting to realise that Evolution is impossible', which is then 'proved' with (dubious) quotes, from prominent scientists, such as Charles Darwin.
We would probably need icons or colours to distinguish between pro and anti.
If we do do this, we should remember to word any arguments convincingly and truthfully (and to edit any argument, as is the wiki way). This page should not turn into a discussion forum, possibly descending into arguments about clarity and wording, but should be a list of useful (and less useful) argumentation.
A bit of a long post, but one that, I hope, will convince someone to either start a new article to address these heard used arguments, or to convince them to stop arguing mindlessly for their own side. (Try proofreading an edit, as someone else might read it, before submitting it). -- Ec5618 15:50, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
I've read a few comments. To Ian Pitchford I should like to say that it might be worth starting such an article, if all it would do is provide a proper place for such endless discussion. Also, if we set some guidelines for the article, it should be possible to prevent endless discussion. As I see it, a single argument (i.e. "Darwin called evolution of the eye absurd" or "A recent study of tree rings called the age of ancient trees into question") should be fairly easy to deal with. The argument can't (shouldn't) devolve into namecalling, not in the article itself, and any new arguments brought to the table should be given a new header. Thus, a single argument should be done quickly, at which point the editors can move on to another argument.
To RoyBoy, though you call the proposed article unencyclopedic, lists abound on Wikipedia. How would this article need to be much different? The only truly different thing, is the option to 'retort' directly (though without discussion in the article itself), which is impossible on talkorigins itself. And thank you for that link to EvoWiki. I didn't know EvoWiki existed. Nevertheless, the article you linked to covers only creationism arguments, and doesn't include the retorts in an easily accesible way. I also feel the layout and ordering leave a lot te be desired. Since EvoWiki is a wiki, we should be able to build upon its contents, and list it as reference material.
I'm ready to be convinced though, but I am quite fed up with the constant bickering, and with the idea that such bickering will continue indefinately, if left unchecked. -- Ec5618 09:11, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
This was tried already (see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Views of Creationists and mainstream scientists compared). I originally created that page and looking back on it now I agree that it needed to be deleted. I wouldn't say that it was impossible to have a page on this topic but it needs to be done very carefully. Barnaby dawson 17:34, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There's already a complete list of creationist claims at TalkOrigins and a list of responses at CreationWiki. Perhaps we could work on something more original such as the history of creationism, with specific articles on neglected areas such as racist creationism; conspiracy theory creationism; bigotry in creationism; sexist creationism; quackery in creationism; totalitarian creationism; occultist creationism; pyramidology in creationism and so on. I can provide reading lists in all of these areas. Ian Pitchford 20:50, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Why? Ian Pitchford 21:20, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't think we should create an article to deal with this. However what might profitably be done is to put up a notice stating clearly that discussions on the talk page should have a high relevence to the advancement of the article itself. Unfortunately it may be hard to achieve consensus enforcing such a notice.
What may be more profitable on articles not specifically dealing with creationism but which get stuck in the same tar pit (e.g evolution) would be to create a separate talk page for issues to do with creationism or its various variaties. This would allow those who do wish to do serious work on such articles and who are unconcerned about issues surrounding creationism to do that without having to wade through masses and masses of text. Barnaby dawson 15:19, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
absolutely unacceptable copyvio and pov. i do wish those editors claiming to be rationalists would not allow such ridiculous edits by our friendly neighborhood pov warrior to go unchecked. Ungtss 23:28, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps it is well to remember that all of us are in search of the truth as best as we can understand it. Creation theory rests on an axiom and scientific theories rest on axioms. Scientific theories rest on axioms which are either evident in nature, or logically necessary, occasionally "guesses" partially supported by either two. Creation theories rest upon the axiom that a creator exists. Science provides detailed explanations for its axioms, explanations that depend upon logic, and further, points out axioms which currently lack proof. It is constantly struggling with itself concerning all these axioms. Indeed, the most celebrated scientists are those who have done the most to supplant long established theories from Copernicus to Newton and Einstein. In this science can be shown to be self critical, demanding intellectual honesty and humility to such an extent that scientists are willing to accept the possibility that creation theories may indeed be correct despite all their efforts. It is in challenging longstanding axioms that we as humans show our quality, our doubt in all things, which reveals our nature, and to do so we are only being honest. The scientific community does not so much take issue with creation theories as it does with it's methods, it's willingness to accept some scientific evidence but not other, obviously based upon the need for a predetermined result, a logically untenable position. Creation theories are dogmatic regarding it's axioms, condemning as sin any doubt. It is as this point that creation theories break down in terms of integrity, logic and eventually believability. Science in general has much to say about its own limitation, particularly since the paper on the incompleteness theorem and Stephen Hawking's paper on the big bang theory, both of which draw clear limits on how far our understanding may reasonably go at this point in time. Therefore, there is room for a creator in scientific theories, it is not atheistic but agnostic, a "psychologically honest" pursuit where we all together wrestle with our demons of doubt. -(61.68.16.158)
Once again Ungtss proves that he has no clue as to what "mainstream scientists" do. Bensaccount 21:15, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
I've noticed that on several occasions now Ec5618's attempts to edit the article are quickly reverted, first by Bensaccount, later by Ungtss. Consider that if Ec5618 is able to offend both sides of the debate he must be nearing some truth. Much of Ec5618's points seem well-reasoned and factual and not the "misinformation" being suggested. I'll be working to roll some of his more salient points into the article, or supporting Ec5618 doing it himself. FeloniousMonk 04:46, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
In my opinion, Ec5618 is another mislead religious zealot pretending to be neutral. Like User:Rednblu. Bensaccount 21:00, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
From way above, Ben wrote: "Ungtss has rightly pointed out that consensus science is fundamentally meaningless." This statement is wrong, simply because the term fundamentally meaningless is so completely overloaded with both religious (Ungtss) and scientific (Ben) notions of absolutism. The "consensus" in science is not ever meant to represent "truth" or even "scientific proof," rather it means a tacit consensus for the current time, based on existing proofs and related experiments. Ungtss use of the word "meaningless" merely meant that consensus ≠ (religious) truth. Ben's use of the "meaningless" means consensus ≠ (scientific) proof. But MU ≠ MB, just as truth ≠ proof. - SV| t 01:00, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
The message I was trying to get across was that saying "CS is rejected by scientists" is not the same as saying "CS is not science". Don't mix up scientific absolutism with religious absolutism. The former is an oxymoron, while the latter is not. Bensaccount 05:00, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Like many other terms, creation science has the word 'science' in it. To many people, this suggests some sort of science-connection. If that connection does not exist, we should explain it in the intro, and 'clearly' 'mark' any mention of 'science'.
If there is valid (absolute) reason to allow the use of 'creation science' to mean the (more) scientific branch of creationism, we should allow it. We should then merely note that 'creation science' is not considered to be 'science' by non-creationists, as it does not, ever, follow the scientific method.
So, (NPOV), which is it? -- Ec5618 08:03, May 25, 2005 (UTC)
Ec5618 exhibits a common misunderstanding of NPOV: "attributing lies to liars and truth to everyone else gives neutrality and makes for a good article". This is incredibly wrong, as giving lies equal say does not take precedence over stating the facts simply and clearly when they are known and straightforeward. Bensaccount 15:15, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Creation science really has its roots in the writing of textbooks and apologetics works (such as "Scientific Creationism") which were meant to respond to the real beating creationists took after the Scopes Trial. The intellectual history of the United States is really tied up with the use of the term "Creation Science" -- an idea that was developed so as to allow the creationist to believe that they had monopoly on all truth, both evangelical and scientific. To this end, "creation science" is only more "scientific" in that it is a new way of describing creationism. Wikipedia has, by consensus, decided to use it as a repository for pseudoscientific arguments used by creationists to back up their claims (that is, arguments used by creationists that are not simply faith claims but rather use the trappings of scientific language to prove their points such as flood geology). It should be noted that most people do not see a distinction between creationism and creation science. Joshuaschroeder 10:46, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't know how this article got to be how it is, perhaps vandalism, I don't know. Even the very first parapraph has nothing bordering on a NPOV. Let's take a look:
First, Creation science is not an ideology. It might have an ideology, but Creation Science is a field of study, just like Sacred Theology is a field of study. It might be a field of study that has prior suppositions different from what you might like, but one cannot identify a field with its axioms.
Second, calling it unscientific is clearly not a neutral point of view. No reasonable person would consider that a neutral viewpoint.
Thirdly, it does not take scripture as an a priori source. It takes scripture as a motivation.
This paragraph shows an ignorant editor.
6 Obvious NPOV violations and/or fallacious items in 2 sentences. It would takes days to clean this up properly. Perhaps someone who knows something about creation science should be writing this article instead of a cadre of people trying to stultify it
Phantym 21:37, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, but even "creation scientists" don't dispute that CS does not allow for any explanation that contradicts the account in Genesis; that's why it's called "creation science", and "Answers in Genesis" and all that.
By disallowing objective criticism of evidence against Genesis, CS disallows objective criticism. Since CS dismisses any interpretation of evidence counter to Genesis, it is not practicing the scientific method. Your reasoning is flawed. FeloniousMonk 22:36, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
The point more clearly stated is that "CS is unscientific", and that unless the article says so (without attributing it to its detractors) it is biased propaganda. Bensaccount 15:32, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Of course they are lying. You wouldn't say "according to its detractors, the holocaust was a genocide". Thats what it was. Stop with the bullshit (haha superfast decay of all helium is scientific...who are you kidding, it would vaporize the planet). Bensaccount 15:54, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
There is no truth here because people like you and Ungtss wont allow it. This is not something to be proud of. Bensaccount 20:51, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Misguided mortals such as yourself Dan. I seriously think that if AiG told you to jump off a bridge you would do so without giving it a second thought. Bensaccount 15:45, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Saying that creation science is evil is a value judgement. Saying that it is unscientific is a fact. Theres a big difference. Lets review this theme of "lies" which you have created Ec5618. You said that you don't think anything written here is the truth. If nothing you write is true, what do you need a list for. Bensaccount 21:22, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
I probably shouldn't enter this converation since i haven't been part of it at all. But what exactly are the creationists lying about?? Falphin 00:32, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
Due to the high number of unexplained reversions so far, I have created a section that you should use to address your upcoming reversions Ec, Ungtss, Dan (and anyone else who wants to remove the truth and replace it with POVs). You have so far been unable to provide a reason. Please do so here. "restoring propoganda" or "bensaccount needs to take a breath" dont really count. Bensaccount 16:32, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
I am removing the POV that CS is scientific and replacing it with the fact that it is not. You have not even mentioned my edits never mind explained your reversions.
You have not addressed my edit (informing that CS is unscientific). Therefore I will add it again. Next time I hope you will provide an explanation instead of just mindlessly reverting. Bensaccount 16:46, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
I am not insisting that your version is claiming that CS is scientific. I said that it included this POV. NPOV, however, says that articles should be written from a NEUTRAL POV, not any 1 or 2 specific POV's. The rest of the above rant is equally misleading. Is that quote your way of saying I am biased? As usual it is unclear what you mean, so your points are wasted. I am not biased btw. CS is not science. Bensaccount 18:05, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
Just out of curiosity, are you user:Rednblu? Anyways, just because NPOV does not assume it doesn't mean it is impossible, there may be cases where it is impossible to decide what is objective and what is not. When it is possible, however, it should, by all means, be done. Stop twisting around policy to suit yourself. Bensaccount 18:18, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
Rossnixon has made the claim that one day maybe a different explanation for the vast distances of space and the incredible light-transit times will be discovered. Inasmuch as all of reality is subject to falsification, he is correct. However, it is just as inappropriate to place "evidently" as a modifier to this scientific observation as it would be to state that "evidently" electricity is the result of the movement of electrons. Just as this is a scientific fact, so is light travel time. On this there can be no dispute. Joshuaschroeder 10:34, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
If Rossnixon can post a scientific observation to the contrary that any individual galaxy beyond our local group does not exhibit this characteristic -- just one single observation -- then we might say that there is a legitimate case to be made for a modifier to be placed regarding a supposed controversy. But barring this we must conclude that his insertion is a means to promoting a creationist agenda and should be eschewed on Wikipedia. Joshuaschroeder 11:17, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Ec has made the bold (and incorrect) editorial claim that although the light is from distant galaxies the transit time is disputed. This is not the case. The transit time for light is a fact and what creationists who worry about the age of the universe are trying to do is invent excuses for why this is so. The ways they try to do this is outlined in the main article. There is absolutely no disputing light travel time as an observed effect. It isn't just an "appearance", it isn't just "according to scientists", it is an observed feature of the universe. End of story. If you want to say that some creationists dispute this fact, that's fine, but the fact itself is inviolable from an observational perspective (and no, that doesn't mean it's an "apparent" fact). Joshuaschroeder 13:34, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
I plan on doing a massive rewrite of this page. It might not matter if Bensaccount continues to revert the many reasonable edits being made by sensible editors, but I hope that a differnt format will prove less POV.
There are two particular problems with the current page [other than the pervasive POV that comes from Ben],
Imagine how silly it would be to say "Modern science is not science because it is based on uniformitarianism, which cannot be proved." Such a statement would show a grave misunderstanding of the paradigm modern science operates from."
I hope you guys are willing to give the new version ao good try.
Phantym 05:58, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Can we discuss the rewrite here /Phantym rewrite proposal/talk. Phantym 17:24, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Preceding this discussion was a lengthy brawl which has previously been archived.
In passing up your opportunity to convince those who disagree, you move from discussing to trolling. Bensaccount 14:59, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
But if everyone knows you are biased, and you make no attempt to convince them that your edits are not biased you are no longer helping article development, you are simply spamming your biases. Bensaccount 17:20, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
Since you are unwilling or unable to convince anyone otherwise, it is fair to say that premise is true. Bensaccount 21:19, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
According to this website, when Lammerts examined three-year-old bristlecone pine trees which had been deprived of water for three weeks in August, followed by normal watering during a warm month in September, he found that they had three growth rings instead of the two expected. Four-year-old bristlecone pines similarly treated exhibited four growth rings instead of the three found for similar plants whose growth was not interrupted by depriving them of water for two to three weeks in August.
In other words, these plants were deprived of water for three weeks, and (if you can believe him despite the complete lack of data) they lost one single growth ring.
Now firstly, different factors such as location, temperature, moisture, soil thickness, soil type, susceptibility to fire, susceptibility to wind, and the amount of sunlight received all are controlled variables that effect tree growth. Thus if you are trying to disprove a dating method, you have to use trees that have undergone the same conditions as the ones in the original dating procedure. The growth-ring analysis of bristlecone pine trees are done in the White Mountains, and they turn up negligible number of cases where there was even a trace of extra rings. In fact, the case for partially or totally missing rings is much more impressive. A typical bristlecone pine has up to 5 percent of its rings missing (Weber, 1982, p.25). Thus, if anything, one is likely to get a date that is too young! A careful statistical study, of course, minimizes even that problem.
Creationists sometimes seize upon such isolated facts in their desperate bid to discredit tree-ring dating. However, their failure to use repeatable controls gives results that can depend on any outside factor. This is not scientific experimentation. This is propaganda, meant to look like actual research but with no actual basis on experimentation. Bensaccount 14:55, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Creation science is discredited due to its complete lack of scientific experimentation or observation. How is that the same as Christians discrediting Einstein because he was Jewish even though his theories were scientific. Bensaccount 14:31, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Maybe they were Jewish Nazis. If you are unsure of these definitions use a dictionary, they are fairly standard. Bensaccount 15:19, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Ec5618 Had archived the discussion above before it had run its course. Previously: "Creation Science does not involve experimental investigation." - Bensaccount
I don't know this literature but it looks to me as though Lammerts (or perhaps Gish) has confused the dating of some Bristlecone Pines to c. 7000 BC with the maximum age of these trees, which is actuallly c. 9000 years. Lammert adjusts the figure of 7000 years to 5600 to make it more consistent with a young earth perspective. The real scientific literature can be accessed here [12] Ian Pitchford 19:56, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
See Ferguson, C. W. (1968). "Bristlecone Pine: Science and Esthetics." Science 159(3817): 839-846. "In certain species of conifers, especially those at lower elevations or in southern latitudes, one season's growth increment may be composed of two or more flushes of growth, each of which may strongly resemble an annual ring. Such multiple growth rings are extremely rare in bristlecone pines, however, and they are especially infrequent at the elevation and latitude (37° 20' N) of the sites being studied. In the growth-ring analyses of approximately one thousand trees in the White Mountains, we have, in fact, found no more than three or four occurrences of even incipient multiple growth layers." (p. 840) - Also, "A bigger problem is missing rings; a bristlecone pine can have up to 5 percent of its rings missing. Thus, dates derived from dendrochronology, if they are suspect at all, should indicate ages too young." [13] Ian Pitchford 21:18, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
The article you cite is just a claim by Gish about what Lammerts is supposed to have done. If Lammerts did the work he should have published it in an appropriate journal where it could have been studied and replicated by experts in the field. The scientific evidence on bristlecone pines does not lend any support to a YEC perspective. The bristlecone pine chronology extends back 9000 years not 7000 years and there are (may be) living things much older than bristlecone pines, e.g c. 11,700 year old creosote bushes [14]. Ian Pitchford 11:05, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This discussion was not continued in the EvoWiki, but a brief dialogue can be found on
User talk:Bensaccount#Creation science. (
[16]--
Ec5618 09:29, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
I'm growing tired of the rambling, repetitive discussions that seem to fill this page. It is not our job to either prove nor ridicule 'creation science'. Whether or not an argument holds water is important though, but these discussions seem to provide little conclusion.
The /Phantym rewrite proposal lists a long list of common arguments made by creationists, without refutation by 'secular' scientists however. We could probably fill another article with the arguments made by creationists to disprove evolution, with the arguments made by evolutionists to refute those claims, with the arguments made by creationists to refute those again.
My suggestion: we create a new article (or simply build upon the /Phantym rewrite proposal for now). In it, we list the arguments made by creationists to object to evolution, and the arguments made by non-evolutionists (oh, alright, 'evolutionists') to object to creation. We first list a statement, including any quotes, then list (*) an argument opposing it, and so on. Creationists and evolutionists could test their argumentation against peer review.
My question to you all:
(oh, and please answer these questions softly to yourself, or in your own post somewhere below this one)
For an example of what I mean we need only look to the above section. A better example can perhaps be found in the often heard allegation that 'many scientists are starting to turn starting to realise that Evolution is impossible', which is then 'proved' with (dubious) quotes, from prominent scientists, such as Charles Darwin.
We would probably need icons or colours to distinguish between pro and anti.
If we do do this, we should remember to word any arguments convincingly and truthfully (and to edit any argument, as is the wiki way). This page should not turn into a discussion forum, possibly descending into arguments about clarity and wording, but should be a list of useful (and less useful) argumentation.
A bit of a long post, but one that, I hope, will convince someone to either start a new article to address these heard used arguments, or to convince them to stop arguing mindlessly for their own side. (Try proofreading an edit, as someone else might read it, before submitting it). -- Ec5618 15:50, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
I've read a few comments. To Ian Pitchford I should like to say that it might be worth starting such an article, if all it would do is provide a proper place for such endless discussion. Also, if we set some guidelines for the article, it should be possible to prevent endless discussion. As I see it, a single argument (i.e. "Darwin called evolution of the eye absurd" or "A recent study of tree rings called the age of ancient trees into question") should be fairly easy to deal with. The argument can't (shouldn't) devolve into namecalling, not in the article itself, and any new arguments brought to the table should be given a new header. Thus, a single argument should be done quickly, at which point the editors can move on to another argument.
To RoyBoy, though you call the proposed article unencyclopedic, lists abound on Wikipedia. How would this article need to be much different? The only truly different thing, is the option to 'retort' directly (though without discussion in the article itself), which is impossible on talkorigins itself. And thank you for that link to EvoWiki. I didn't know EvoWiki existed. Nevertheless, the article you linked to covers only creationism arguments, and doesn't include the retorts in an easily accesible way. I also feel the layout and ordering leave a lot te be desired. Since EvoWiki is a wiki, we should be able to build upon its contents, and list it as reference material.
I'm ready to be convinced though, but I am quite fed up with the constant bickering, and with the idea that such bickering will continue indefinately, if left unchecked. -- Ec5618 09:11, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
This was tried already (see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Views of Creationists and mainstream scientists compared). I originally created that page and looking back on it now I agree that it needed to be deleted. I wouldn't say that it was impossible to have a page on this topic but it needs to be done very carefully. Barnaby dawson 17:34, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There's already a complete list of creationist claims at TalkOrigins and a list of responses at CreationWiki. Perhaps we could work on something more original such as the history of creationism, with specific articles on neglected areas such as racist creationism; conspiracy theory creationism; bigotry in creationism; sexist creationism; quackery in creationism; totalitarian creationism; occultist creationism; pyramidology in creationism and so on. I can provide reading lists in all of these areas. Ian Pitchford 20:50, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Why? Ian Pitchford 21:20, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't think we should create an article to deal with this. However what might profitably be done is to put up a notice stating clearly that discussions on the talk page should have a high relevence to the advancement of the article itself. Unfortunately it may be hard to achieve consensus enforcing such a notice.
What may be more profitable on articles not specifically dealing with creationism but which get stuck in the same tar pit (e.g evolution) would be to create a separate talk page for issues to do with creationism or its various variaties. This would allow those who do wish to do serious work on such articles and who are unconcerned about issues surrounding creationism to do that without having to wade through masses and masses of text. Barnaby dawson 15:19, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)