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I came here because I saw the RfC listing, and then found the VfD. I voted to keep the article, but with reservations. I repeat most of my comment here, for convenience:
In this article, it's misleading to refer to creation science as "the use of the scientific method to study God's creation." Any scientist who believes in God would say, "That's what I do." Here's a suggested alternative:
What's now (as I write) the last two sentences of the lead section is valid material, but I'd include it in the body of the article, not the lead. ("Mainstream science does not seek to find answers to fit in with any particular agenda; instead, it sets out to discover and learn about the world as it is through the accumulation of evidence, and through the application of the scientific method. Creation science, on the other hand, begins with the required answer, and attempts to find evidence to fit in with this.") JamesMLane 10:28, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The RfC asked if this page should be merged with creationism. I believe it should be, if only because this article repeatedly refers to 'creationism' throughout. If it really is a seperate topic, edit the article accordingly. Dan100 15:24, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
The way I see it Creation science is an ideology that belongs under Creationism. If they are different, they are so because of the claim for 'scientificness' - but if Creation Science claims to be a science, it is subject to the No Original Research rule. True, there are provisions under that rule for including original research in other articles where it is relevant - but not as an article by itself. In short, there are two ways of looking at Creation science - either way it does not belong in its own article. The fact that Creation Science is an oxymoron and intentionally misleading doesn't help either, of course. Unfortunately, a lot of people have invested time and energy into this article, and they do not (nor do I, naturally) want to see that go to waste. This is why I propose a merge and redirect to Creationism. -- Spazzm 10:11, 2005 Mar 10 (UTC)
I see the usefulness of keeping articles short, but this article is already short, and contains almost no real information that's not already on the Creationism page - in fact, this article repeatedly references the creationism page. My point is that transubstaniation, the pope and catholicism may be parts of a whole, but they are not virtually identical. There is, for example, no article on Democratic People's Republic of Korea - it redirects to North Korea - despite the fact that the official name is 'Democratic People's Republic of Korea' and there are many who think of it as a democracy. It could even be argued that 'Democratic People's Republic of Korea' is a concept distinctly separate from the concept of 'North Korea' - a different viewpoint on the same subject. -- Spazzm 14:21, 2005 Mar 10 (UTC)
An important aspect is the classification of Creation Science - is it science or ideology? As I've already pointed out above, either way it does not belong in its own article if the rules are to be followed.
One response to this is to claim that this is a false dichtonomy: Must Creation science be one or the other? Well, can it be neither? That would make it is a political movement, a religion or somesuch - still no different from Creationism.
The only remaining possibility is that it is both - a syntesis of ideology and science, perhaps. The wikipedia rules only allows us to include Creation Science if we acknowledge that it is both science and religion but not bound by the rules of either - thus giving the creationists exactly what they want. -- Spazzm 14:35, 2005 Mar 10 (UTC)
I strongly encourage everyone to read this CJR article, linked at the bottom of the NPOV page. It deals with a similar issue as the one we're facing here, albeit from a journalistic, not encyclopedic, perspective. -- Spazzm 02:24, 2005 Mar 11 (UTC)
RFC response. Structurally this should be under the heading of Creationism; this means having a section within that article that explains the role of CS within creationism. Given the amount of duplicated material, that can probably be done without having a separate daughter article (which is only needed when a section in the mother article gets too big). Certainly a merger should be the starting point, and keeping CS separate be contingent on showing that this is not practical. Rd232 15:16, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have implemented JamesMLane's intro, as I think it adequately summarizes creation science from NPOV. DaveTheRed 01:16, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Keep: 23
Merge: 10
Delete: 1
Uncertain: 2. I'm not certain how to interpret BM's vote - Merge or Keep? Is Guettarda's comment a vote?
Huge victory for Keep, I concede defeat and have removed the notice from the page. Thanks to everyone who helped make this an interesting vote. -- Spazzm 02:19, 2005 Mar 15 (UTC)
I removed:
...However, it would seem that the creation-evolution issue is unimportant for most practical science, especially physics and chemistry, and even most biological research:
which continues:
Yet, the marginality of evolutionary biology may be changing. More and more issues in biology, from diverse questions about human nature to the vulnerability of ecosystems, are increasingly seen as reflecting evolutionary events. A spate of popular books on evolution testifies to this development. If we are to fully understand these matters, however, we need to understand the processes of evolution that, ultimately, underlie them. This thematic issue of BioEssays is a survey of these processesÐand the ways they shape the properties of living things, from bacteria to humans. The importance of comprehending the nature of evolutionary processes, in order to make sense of the dynamic properties of biological systems, is particularly well illustrated by three articles in this issue.
(description of articles) ...
As this set of articles illustrate, evolutionary biology is alive and well and extending its domain, as biology enters the 21st century. Covering these developments, and their relevance to different fields of biology, will continue to be one of the major goals of this journal.
Dunc| ☺ 18:21, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
(see also claim
Creation Science is obviously pseudoscience. To not reveal this would make this article propaganda. Bensaccount 21:23, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Please refer to my discussion with User:Bensaccount above ("pseudoscience"). Even though I believe that creation science is pseudoscience, I think it's a flagrant violation of Wikipedia's central NPOV policy to start the article "Creation science is pseudoscience which...". I've tried to argue for a calmer tone, but he makes this change daily. I'd be interested to know what other contributors think. In particular, since I doubt creation scientists think it's a good change, I'd be interested to know what others not sympathetic to creation science think. -- ciphergoth 12:41, 2005 Apr 11 (UTC)
then attribute your criticism to the NAS. but the NAS does not have a monopoly on reality in an NPOV regime. their views must be attributed, just like everybody else. NPOV, not SPOV. perhaps if you read what came before my "periods", you'd realize that your argument is absolutely indefensible in light of clearly articulated npov principles. Ungtss 00:32, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Placing the Bible beyond question makes it dogma. It doesn't make it pseudoscience. Think about what you are writing, dont just add something because it "sounds neutral". Bensaccount 22:44, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Refuse to discuss it, but don't come back later and say it is unfair. Bensaccount 00:02, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, Bensaccount, but placing the Bible beyond question makes it dogma AND makes it not science. In science, no external reference is ever beyond question. The scientific method is all about throwing out theories when they don't fit the evidence. Creationists don't do that, they throw out the evidence if it doesn;t fit their theory. That's unscientific. The change was not made just because it sounds neutral, it was made because it sounds more neutral AND is factual.
DreamGuy 03:29, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
Makes it not science. Bensaccount 03:49, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I fail to see how the currently worded intro, which states that most scientists reject Creation science, is flawed and requires a rewrite just to insert the phrase "it is not science." Such a broad statement is certainly POV (even though I'm inclined to agree with it) as it precludes ANY application of the scientific method by such scientists. The current version does not raise POV questions and still gets the point across about it probably not actually being scientific. - Jersyko 04:04, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
I think it's fair to say we have consensus that Bensaccount's version is too harsh... Jersyko, Gazpacho, myself, and I think Joshuaschneider all agreed to the call it pseudoscience/ do not think it's science version, and I imagine all the various pro-creation types would prefer that one too. We need something like 75% for consensus and we have that by a mile. DreamGuy 04:10, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
one "various pro-creation type" chiming in. Ungtss 04:12, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Ben, it's not just NPOV policy, it's the writing principle of "show, don't tell." It is more informative to say why CS is not regarded as science than to just say it, and the former makes the latter redundant. Gazpacho 04:21, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Of course creation science precludes any application of the scientific method. Science is not based on beliefs. Why are you arguing agaist clarity? Bensaccount 04:34, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is not "probably not scientific". That is your POV. It is definately not scientific. I restored the POV banner since you refuse to tell the truth. Bensaccount 04:52, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No you have ongoing discussion. Why are you avoiding clarity? Bensaccount 04:56, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It raises the question: Is this science? This is as POV as it gets. (I should leave this also). Bensaccount 05:06, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
consider:
<<Creation science is a term used by creationists describing their efforts to develop scientific justification for their views. It often argues against biological evolution and in favor of young earth creationism.>>
1) movements should be defined on the terms of their proponents, and not on the terms of their critics. the first sentence is in direct violation of this policy. the sentence should read something like, "Creation science, according to its proponents, is the application of the scientific method to study God's creation, and particularly to study the origins of the Earth, life, and humanity." what you have now is equivalent to " supply side economics is a term used by rich people describing their efforts to exploit the poor." Ungtss 03:07, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
2) <<It often argues against biological evolution and in favor of young earth creationism.>>
User:Ungtss seems to have a newly found technique for pretending to not edit creationism-related pages. This entails pretending that there is an editting dispute and then placing a twoversions tag on the page. This is, in my opinion, a misuse of the pseudoprotection options that are made available to help handle real disputes rather than allow for parallel pages to be in place indefinitely. As it is, I'm not seeing that there is much of an editting dispute here at all on this page, so I'm removing the tag. Joshuaschroeder 05:51, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Ungtss, I understand why you're not happy with the first sentence and I support your efforts to find a replacement, but you must come up with a better proposal because your current one isn't going to stand. Any Christian believes that all the Universe is ultimately God's creation - including a Christian who believes in the Big Bang and evolutionary biology - so by this definition, "creation science" is just another word for "science", and evolution and the Big Bang are part of "creation science". You must come up with a description which makes clear what it is that is distinctive about creation science. -- ciphergoth 15:43, 2005 Apr 10 (UTC)
Bensaccount suddenly out of nowhere decided to label the entire article totally dsiputed. No explanation was given for this. We already have clear consensus on the issues he is complaining about, the tag ,makes no sense. So far the only complaint he's given is that he wants to outright put his opinion that it is not a science into the article instead of sticking to explaining that the majority of scientists refer to it as pseudoscience. As that's a pretty poor understanding of how NPOV works and has already been explained to him, and is only one extrmely minor section of the overall article, there's no basis for a totally disputed tag. If he intends to put the tag back he needs to have extrmely clear reasons on the talk page over why it's supposedly totally disputed so we can go through and debate each of the reasons. Unilaterally tagging the page goes against the process for its placement. DreamGuy 06:46, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
The article leads the reader to believe this could be science. This is not true, hence the tag. Bensaccount 15:56, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is your opinion that it is not true that it could be science. It is my opinion too, for that matter. But there are (unfortunately) a number of people who disagree with that. Your opinion does not get to be Wikipedia's opinion. This is just a simple matter of following NPOV policy. Stating that the overwhelming majority of scientists call it pseudoscience, disagree with it, and consider it religion operating in the guise of science (and everything else that was added recently) is factual, objective, and should be more than enough. It's absolutely ludicrous to throw a totally disputed tag on something because it only points out the the topic is overwhelmingly considered fake by the experts instead of coming right out and calling it fake. That's not what the tag is for. DreamGuy 21:28, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
If it distorts the facts, I add the tag. Bensaccount 22:19, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Philip Quinn is quoted in the article as saying, in 1984, "In a recent collection of essays, Stephen Jay Gould claims that "'scientific creationism' is a self-contradictory nonsense phrase precisely because it cannot be falsified'. … Ironically, in the next sentence Gould goes on to contradict himself by asserting that "the individual claims are easy enough to refute with a bit of research."
The "recent collection of essays" seems to be "Hens' Teeth And Horses' Toes", 1981, and the essay seems to be Evolution as Fact and Theory [2], since it contains the "self-contradictory nonsense phrase" sentence. But the other sentence, alleged by the Quinn quote to be there, is not there. What do we make of that? It's possible that the "next sentence" was there in the first edition of Gould's book (who has it and can look it up? who has Quinn's original?), but it may be just another creationist misquotation, and the '...' in the Quinn quote may signify a change of context. And I'm in favor of removing the whole thing until someone here has found the original Quinn - since it is nothing but hearsay that has gone through the creationist literature filter that will remove any unconfortable qualifiers, contexts, sentence parts, and facts. Probably Quinn said and meant something else entirely. -- Hob Gadling 12:40, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
ultimately, i think that gould is the one making the error. he demonstrates with his "dinosaur track" example that he doesn't know what falsification means. you don't falsify things by finding someone else who interprets the same evidence a different way. you falsify by composing experiments that would prove the principle wrong if it were wrong. he hasn't done that here. he's used one creationist's opinion to disprove another creationist's opinion. that's nonsense:(. Ungtss 12:06, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
the "..." in quinn includes the following: "And in another essay in the same collection Gould has this to say about creationists:
admittedly, the "..." in this case leads to the false linking of two sentences, but not of two ideas. and it is certainly not a misrepresentation of the text. in the essay, he rips apart the decision in McLean v. Arkansas. he's very clear, over and over, that certain aspects of creationism are falsifiable, and some of those have been falsified, but it is ludicrous to call creationism as a whole unfalsifiable, and then claim to have falsified it.
Quinn himself omitted but one sentence from the quote from Quaggas -- the first sentence of the paragraph -- "Against this pattern, creationists employ a destructive, shotgun approach." Then after the section in which he says creationism is untestable, he writes:
"nearly all scientists reject it as pseudoscience." If it is rejected as pseudoscience, does that make it science? Bensaccount 15:59, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If something is rejected as X, that usually means it is not X. Bensaccount 17:59, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone even have the faintest clue as to what I am saying? Bensaccount 18:10, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Rejected as X" means "judged unacceptable as X". You are saying "creation science is judged uncacceptable as pseudoscience." It may sound neutral, but ambiguity can do that. Bensaccount 18:23, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Apparently you speak a different language than me. Bensaccount 18:34, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I judge Ungtss unacceptable as a Wikipedian. I reject him as an acceptable member of Wikipedia. Bensaccount 18:43, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Maybe it's time for everyone to take some time to cool off. - Jersyko 18:46, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
I reject Ungtss as an intelligent human being. I reject him as a decent member of society. Bensaccount 18:54, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Finally someone understands how ambiguous this is. Now will someone fix this poorly written phrase or should I go on... Bensaccount 18:59, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The lead paragraph still does not make it clear that this is not science. Bensaccount 02:09, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Pseudoscience means not science. Scientists call it a pseudoscience and reject it as religious-based instead of scientifically-based. That's what the article was saying. We can not write it saying that Wikipedia itself calls it not a science, because that's an opinion (albeit an opinion held by the overwhelming majority of scientists), not a fact. Why are people still confused on this? DreamGuy 21:19, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
And no it is not an opinion, it is a fact. There is a difference. Bensaccount 21:39, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Are you having trouble telling the difference Ungtss? An opinion is a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty. A fact is a concept whose truth can be proved. Bensaccount 01:28, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for finally trying to differentiate fact from opinion. Now we are trying to define rather than to obfuscate. Bensaccount 18:31, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
We are. For example you say that whether something qualifies as science depends on one's definition of science. I provided two specific definitions, natural science & social science, which were concurrently removed by dreamguy (with no reason other than 'POV has to stop'). Do you intend to give a reason why this is POV Dreamguy? Bensaccount 01:10, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
<<Natural science is defined, and whether it is a conventional definition or not is irrelevant.>>
<<Creation science is a single theory?>>
<<We both agree it is not social science.>>
This is just a personal insult ridden digressive rant. Bensaccount 01:46, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hahaha...Logic....you are kidding right?...did you READ what you wrote? It is convention that the pet that barks is called a dog. If someone decides that the pet that meows will henceforth also be called a dog, nobody will believe them because they call that pet a cat. Bensaccount 01:49, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Why do I bother with examples if you just take the nouns and change the rest to suit yourself. Bensaccount 04:47, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I said it would be incorrect to call it a cat. Anyways, this example is evidently beyond you so lets just focus on the issue. Creation science is not natural science, nobody would list it as this, because it goes against the definition of natural science: sciences that deal with nature. (its not science, and it deals with the supernatural). Bensaccount 05:21, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I inform you that creation does not fit the definition of natural science because it involves the supernatural, so you make up a brand new definition of supernatural. Now the supernatural is "that which is natural". Nice. Bensaccount 16:08, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Encarta defines supernatural as something departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature. Unlike you I don't make up my own definitions, I prefer to use those found in dictionaries. Bensaccount 19:50, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I.e, " supernatural". Q.E.D.. Guettarda 22:15, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Ok so you finally admit the definition, so how about apologizing for making things up? And apologize for attributing things to me that I never said while you are at it. Bensaccount 22:32, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No you defined supernatural as as "events and beings that follow the laws of nature". You don't seriously think you can convince anyone that this is the same as "appearing to be outside the realm of nature" do you? Bensaccount 22:40, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No you defined supernatural as as "events and beings that follow the laws of nature". You don't seriously think you can convince anyone that this is the same as "appearing to be outside the realm of nature" do you? Bensaccount 22:40, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately I have gotten sidetracked discussing semantics with someone who thinks science is defined as "an effort to understand the supernatural". Anyways, I rather like the current version of the intro, so I have no further complaints. Bensaccount 22:57, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Apparently, not only do you not know the definition of supernatural or the definition of science but you also don't know the definition of semantics. How do you manage to communicate in daily life? Bensaccount 23:02, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Frankly, Ungtss, I am not interested in your make-believe definitions. I am here for the articles. Go preach to the other creationists on your talk page, you have no audience here. Bensaccount 23:17, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Popper defines science as 'testable' statements. Bensaccount 23:26, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sure he does.... Bensaccount 23:34, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I wonder if Ungtss could name a single supernatural event that has been empirically observed. Is the Pioneer anomaly a supernatural event? How about the Mpemba effect? Joshuaschroeder 00:17, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My concern is with people making up definitions and attributing them to Karl Popper. Bensaccount 19:19, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Can you provide a quotation to back that up? Bensaccount 03:41, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If you can quote Popper as defining science as exploring the unexplained, turning the unfalsifiable into the falsifiable and the metaphysical into the theoretical, it would show you aren't attributing your personal biases to Popper. Bensaccount 12:49, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Ben - people quote Popper all the time, but most people have not read Popper. It would be good if anything attributed to Popper had a reference. I had a rather mistaken impression of "Popperian science" until I started reading his stuff. Guettarda 13:14, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
In other words, you can't provide a quotation of him defining science the way you said he did, so you are providing a completely unrelated quotation instead. Bensaccount 15:45, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Firstly, you didn't cite it, so I can not look it up in context. Secondly, saying that science proceeds by conjecture and refutation is not even remotely similar to saying science proceeds by turning the unfalsifiable into the falsifiable. Bensaccount 15:56, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If the conjecture truly was unfalsifiable then it wouldn't be possible to falsify it. First you make up a definition. Next you attribute your make-believe definition to Popper. Next you provide a completely unrelated quotation and pretend it backs up your fantasy. Next you refuse to cite where you found this quotation but point to a book which may or may not contain it. And finally you make the above statement which seems to lack any logic whatsoever. What next Ungtss? Bensaccount 01:30, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thats a lot of digressive rhetoric, but it doesn't address the issue raised by Hob and I. Bensaccount 15:35, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What nonsense. What is the subject of the above paragraph? Save your "correct grammar" for the page. All you are doing is trying to piss me off. Bensaccount 22:15, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
And we were talking about your using the term "unfalsifiable" when you mean "unfalsified" or "seeminly unfalsifiable to certain people". Hence your rant about something being "strictly and absolutely incorrect" and subsequent rant about "poppers application of falsifiability to psychology and evolution" completely miss the issue raised by Hob and me. Bensaccount 22:29, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Do you have anything you would like to change regarding this page? If not, lets just call this quits. Bensaccount 23:10, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a democracy if you have any valid changes you want made, state them. There is no point in you trolling this talk page with fake definitions if you arent even trying to improve the article. Bensaccount 15:45, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You have not shown how it is not a natural science so there is no reason not to put this in the intro. The reasons in the intro show it is not science. The fact that it deals with the supernatural show this. Its deviation from the scientific method show this. Its rejection by all scientists shows this. I could go on. You have nothing. Bensaccount 16:00, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No they reflect the standard dictionary definition of natural science. Thus creation science is not a natural science. Bensaccount 16:14, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
<<The term natural science as the way in which different fields of study are defined is determined as much by historical convention as by the present day meaning of the words.>>
So we both agree the definition is conventional (like all definitions) and doesn't include creation science. Bensaccount 16:23, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No, we use the standard convention. We use words as the majority of people will understand them. We follow the dictionary definition. See you tomorrow Ungtss. Bensaccount 16:29, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Creation science does not involve experimental investigation. Like you say, it constructs its theoretical explanations based on Genesis, rather than on observations. This means it is not science. Bensaccount 14:45, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
That is not experimental investigation, that is dogma. Bensaccount 15:06, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
There is no evidence AT ALL for creation. Genesis is not evidence, just like the Iliad is not taken as evidence of Zeus. There is a lot of evidence that supports abiogenesis which is why it is an accepted scientific theory. This is yet another in the long list of reasons why creation science is not science on this page. Bensaccount 15:33, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
It quite possibly was entirely fictional. This doesn't mean the Iliad has no value to it, it simply means that it is not scientific evidence. I'll see you tomorrow Ungtss. Bensaccount 15:45, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Can people here working on this article also check out Theistic realism? I'd like to get a consensus from more than the two editors on how to proceed with this. Also, take a look at Talk:theistic realism. Thanks. Joshuaschroeder 01:25, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
dreamguy, you said they were unattractive, clumsy, and unhelpful. attractiveness i can fix. why are they clumsy and unhelpful? I think they allow an easy way to understand the flow of thought in the creationist view -- how things flow from presupposition through science to different conclusions, and how the other one sees the conflict as simply science/religion. Ungtss 00:32, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I came here because I saw the RfC listing, and then found the VfD. I voted to keep the article, but with reservations. I repeat most of my comment here, for convenience:
In this article, it's misleading to refer to creation science as "the use of the scientific method to study God's creation." Any scientist who believes in God would say, "That's what I do." Here's a suggested alternative:
What's now (as I write) the last two sentences of the lead section is valid material, but I'd include it in the body of the article, not the lead. ("Mainstream science does not seek to find answers to fit in with any particular agenda; instead, it sets out to discover and learn about the world as it is through the accumulation of evidence, and through the application of the scientific method. Creation science, on the other hand, begins with the required answer, and attempts to find evidence to fit in with this.") JamesMLane 10:28, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The RfC asked if this page should be merged with creationism. I believe it should be, if only because this article repeatedly refers to 'creationism' throughout. If it really is a seperate topic, edit the article accordingly. Dan100 15:24, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
The way I see it Creation science is an ideology that belongs under Creationism. If they are different, they are so because of the claim for 'scientificness' - but if Creation Science claims to be a science, it is subject to the No Original Research rule. True, there are provisions under that rule for including original research in other articles where it is relevant - but not as an article by itself. In short, there are two ways of looking at Creation science - either way it does not belong in its own article. The fact that Creation Science is an oxymoron and intentionally misleading doesn't help either, of course. Unfortunately, a lot of people have invested time and energy into this article, and they do not (nor do I, naturally) want to see that go to waste. This is why I propose a merge and redirect to Creationism. -- Spazzm 10:11, 2005 Mar 10 (UTC)
I see the usefulness of keeping articles short, but this article is already short, and contains almost no real information that's not already on the Creationism page - in fact, this article repeatedly references the creationism page. My point is that transubstaniation, the pope and catholicism may be parts of a whole, but they are not virtually identical. There is, for example, no article on Democratic People's Republic of Korea - it redirects to North Korea - despite the fact that the official name is 'Democratic People's Republic of Korea' and there are many who think of it as a democracy. It could even be argued that 'Democratic People's Republic of Korea' is a concept distinctly separate from the concept of 'North Korea' - a different viewpoint on the same subject. -- Spazzm 14:21, 2005 Mar 10 (UTC)
An important aspect is the classification of Creation Science - is it science or ideology? As I've already pointed out above, either way it does not belong in its own article if the rules are to be followed.
One response to this is to claim that this is a false dichtonomy: Must Creation science be one or the other? Well, can it be neither? That would make it is a political movement, a religion or somesuch - still no different from Creationism.
The only remaining possibility is that it is both - a syntesis of ideology and science, perhaps. The wikipedia rules only allows us to include Creation Science if we acknowledge that it is both science and religion but not bound by the rules of either - thus giving the creationists exactly what they want. -- Spazzm 14:35, 2005 Mar 10 (UTC)
I strongly encourage everyone to read this CJR article, linked at the bottom of the NPOV page. It deals with a similar issue as the one we're facing here, albeit from a journalistic, not encyclopedic, perspective. -- Spazzm 02:24, 2005 Mar 11 (UTC)
RFC response. Structurally this should be under the heading of Creationism; this means having a section within that article that explains the role of CS within creationism. Given the amount of duplicated material, that can probably be done without having a separate daughter article (which is only needed when a section in the mother article gets too big). Certainly a merger should be the starting point, and keeping CS separate be contingent on showing that this is not practical. Rd232 15:16, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have implemented JamesMLane's intro, as I think it adequately summarizes creation science from NPOV. DaveTheRed 01:16, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Keep: 23
Merge: 10
Delete: 1
Uncertain: 2. I'm not certain how to interpret BM's vote - Merge or Keep? Is Guettarda's comment a vote?
Huge victory for Keep, I concede defeat and have removed the notice from the page. Thanks to everyone who helped make this an interesting vote. -- Spazzm 02:19, 2005 Mar 15 (UTC)
I removed:
...However, it would seem that the creation-evolution issue is unimportant for most practical science, especially physics and chemistry, and even most biological research:
which continues:
Yet, the marginality of evolutionary biology may be changing. More and more issues in biology, from diverse questions about human nature to the vulnerability of ecosystems, are increasingly seen as reflecting evolutionary events. A spate of popular books on evolution testifies to this development. If we are to fully understand these matters, however, we need to understand the processes of evolution that, ultimately, underlie them. This thematic issue of BioEssays is a survey of these processesÐand the ways they shape the properties of living things, from bacteria to humans. The importance of comprehending the nature of evolutionary processes, in order to make sense of the dynamic properties of biological systems, is particularly well illustrated by three articles in this issue.
(description of articles) ...
As this set of articles illustrate, evolutionary biology is alive and well and extending its domain, as biology enters the 21st century. Covering these developments, and their relevance to different fields of biology, will continue to be one of the major goals of this journal.
Dunc| ☺ 18:21, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
(see also claim
Creation Science is obviously pseudoscience. To not reveal this would make this article propaganda. Bensaccount 21:23, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Please refer to my discussion with User:Bensaccount above ("pseudoscience"). Even though I believe that creation science is pseudoscience, I think it's a flagrant violation of Wikipedia's central NPOV policy to start the article "Creation science is pseudoscience which...". I've tried to argue for a calmer tone, but he makes this change daily. I'd be interested to know what other contributors think. In particular, since I doubt creation scientists think it's a good change, I'd be interested to know what others not sympathetic to creation science think. -- ciphergoth 12:41, 2005 Apr 11 (UTC)
then attribute your criticism to the NAS. but the NAS does not have a monopoly on reality in an NPOV regime. their views must be attributed, just like everybody else. NPOV, not SPOV. perhaps if you read what came before my "periods", you'd realize that your argument is absolutely indefensible in light of clearly articulated npov principles. Ungtss 00:32, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Placing the Bible beyond question makes it dogma. It doesn't make it pseudoscience. Think about what you are writing, dont just add something because it "sounds neutral". Bensaccount 22:44, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Refuse to discuss it, but don't come back later and say it is unfair. Bensaccount 00:02, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, Bensaccount, but placing the Bible beyond question makes it dogma AND makes it not science. In science, no external reference is ever beyond question. The scientific method is all about throwing out theories when they don't fit the evidence. Creationists don't do that, they throw out the evidence if it doesn;t fit their theory. That's unscientific. The change was not made just because it sounds neutral, it was made because it sounds more neutral AND is factual.
DreamGuy 03:29, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
Makes it not science. Bensaccount 03:49, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I fail to see how the currently worded intro, which states that most scientists reject Creation science, is flawed and requires a rewrite just to insert the phrase "it is not science." Such a broad statement is certainly POV (even though I'm inclined to agree with it) as it precludes ANY application of the scientific method by such scientists. The current version does not raise POV questions and still gets the point across about it probably not actually being scientific. - Jersyko 04:04, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
I think it's fair to say we have consensus that Bensaccount's version is too harsh... Jersyko, Gazpacho, myself, and I think Joshuaschneider all agreed to the call it pseudoscience/ do not think it's science version, and I imagine all the various pro-creation types would prefer that one too. We need something like 75% for consensus and we have that by a mile. DreamGuy 04:10, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
one "various pro-creation type" chiming in. Ungtss 04:12, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Ben, it's not just NPOV policy, it's the writing principle of "show, don't tell." It is more informative to say why CS is not regarded as science than to just say it, and the former makes the latter redundant. Gazpacho 04:21, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Of course creation science precludes any application of the scientific method. Science is not based on beliefs. Why are you arguing agaist clarity? Bensaccount 04:34, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is not "probably not scientific". That is your POV. It is definately not scientific. I restored the POV banner since you refuse to tell the truth. Bensaccount 04:52, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No you have ongoing discussion. Why are you avoiding clarity? Bensaccount 04:56, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It raises the question: Is this science? This is as POV as it gets. (I should leave this also). Bensaccount 05:06, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
consider:
<<Creation science is a term used by creationists describing their efforts to develop scientific justification for their views. It often argues against biological evolution and in favor of young earth creationism.>>
1) movements should be defined on the terms of their proponents, and not on the terms of their critics. the first sentence is in direct violation of this policy. the sentence should read something like, "Creation science, according to its proponents, is the application of the scientific method to study God's creation, and particularly to study the origins of the Earth, life, and humanity." what you have now is equivalent to " supply side economics is a term used by rich people describing their efforts to exploit the poor." Ungtss 03:07, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
2) <<It often argues against biological evolution and in favor of young earth creationism.>>
User:Ungtss seems to have a newly found technique for pretending to not edit creationism-related pages. This entails pretending that there is an editting dispute and then placing a twoversions tag on the page. This is, in my opinion, a misuse of the pseudoprotection options that are made available to help handle real disputes rather than allow for parallel pages to be in place indefinitely. As it is, I'm not seeing that there is much of an editting dispute here at all on this page, so I'm removing the tag. Joshuaschroeder 05:51, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Ungtss, I understand why you're not happy with the first sentence and I support your efforts to find a replacement, but you must come up with a better proposal because your current one isn't going to stand. Any Christian believes that all the Universe is ultimately God's creation - including a Christian who believes in the Big Bang and evolutionary biology - so by this definition, "creation science" is just another word for "science", and evolution and the Big Bang are part of "creation science". You must come up with a description which makes clear what it is that is distinctive about creation science. -- ciphergoth 15:43, 2005 Apr 10 (UTC)
Bensaccount suddenly out of nowhere decided to label the entire article totally dsiputed. No explanation was given for this. We already have clear consensus on the issues he is complaining about, the tag ,makes no sense. So far the only complaint he's given is that he wants to outright put his opinion that it is not a science into the article instead of sticking to explaining that the majority of scientists refer to it as pseudoscience. As that's a pretty poor understanding of how NPOV works and has already been explained to him, and is only one extrmely minor section of the overall article, there's no basis for a totally disputed tag. If he intends to put the tag back he needs to have extrmely clear reasons on the talk page over why it's supposedly totally disputed so we can go through and debate each of the reasons. Unilaterally tagging the page goes against the process for its placement. DreamGuy 06:46, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
The article leads the reader to believe this could be science. This is not true, hence the tag. Bensaccount 15:56, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is your opinion that it is not true that it could be science. It is my opinion too, for that matter. But there are (unfortunately) a number of people who disagree with that. Your opinion does not get to be Wikipedia's opinion. This is just a simple matter of following NPOV policy. Stating that the overwhelming majority of scientists call it pseudoscience, disagree with it, and consider it religion operating in the guise of science (and everything else that was added recently) is factual, objective, and should be more than enough. It's absolutely ludicrous to throw a totally disputed tag on something because it only points out the the topic is overwhelmingly considered fake by the experts instead of coming right out and calling it fake. That's not what the tag is for. DreamGuy 21:28, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
If it distorts the facts, I add the tag. Bensaccount 22:19, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Philip Quinn is quoted in the article as saying, in 1984, "In a recent collection of essays, Stephen Jay Gould claims that "'scientific creationism' is a self-contradictory nonsense phrase precisely because it cannot be falsified'. … Ironically, in the next sentence Gould goes on to contradict himself by asserting that "the individual claims are easy enough to refute with a bit of research."
The "recent collection of essays" seems to be "Hens' Teeth And Horses' Toes", 1981, and the essay seems to be Evolution as Fact and Theory [2], since it contains the "self-contradictory nonsense phrase" sentence. But the other sentence, alleged by the Quinn quote to be there, is not there. What do we make of that? It's possible that the "next sentence" was there in the first edition of Gould's book (who has it and can look it up? who has Quinn's original?), but it may be just another creationist misquotation, and the '...' in the Quinn quote may signify a change of context. And I'm in favor of removing the whole thing until someone here has found the original Quinn - since it is nothing but hearsay that has gone through the creationist literature filter that will remove any unconfortable qualifiers, contexts, sentence parts, and facts. Probably Quinn said and meant something else entirely. -- Hob Gadling 12:40, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
ultimately, i think that gould is the one making the error. he demonstrates with his "dinosaur track" example that he doesn't know what falsification means. you don't falsify things by finding someone else who interprets the same evidence a different way. you falsify by composing experiments that would prove the principle wrong if it were wrong. he hasn't done that here. he's used one creationist's opinion to disprove another creationist's opinion. that's nonsense:(. Ungtss 12:06, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
the "..." in quinn includes the following: "And in another essay in the same collection Gould has this to say about creationists:
admittedly, the "..." in this case leads to the false linking of two sentences, but not of two ideas. and it is certainly not a misrepresentation of the text. in the essay, he rips apart the decision in McLean v. Arkansas. he's very clear, over and over, that certain aspects of creationism are falsifiable, and some of those have been falsified, but it is ludicrous to call creationism as a whole unfalsifiable, and then claim to have falsified it.
Quinn himself omitted but one sentence from the quote from Quaggas -- the first sentence of the paragraph -- "Against this pattern, creationists employ a destructive, shotgun approach." Then after the section in which he says creationism is untestable, he writes:
"nearly all scientists reject it as pseudoscience." If it is rejected as pseudoscience, does that make it science? Bensaccount 15:59, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If something is rejected as X, that usually means it is not X. Bensaccount 17:59, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone even have the faintest clue as to what I am saying? Bensaccount 18:10, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Rejected as X" means "judged unacceptable as X". You are saying "creation science is judged uncacceptable as pseudoscience." It may sound neutral, but ambiguity can do that. Bensaccount 18:23, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Apparently you speak a different language than me. Bensaccount 18:34, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I judge Ungtss unacceptable as a Wikipedian. I reject him as an acceptable member of Wikipedia. Bensaccount 18:43, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Maybe it's time for everyone to take some time to cool off. - Jersyko 18:46, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
I reject Ungtss as an intelligent human being. I reject him as a decent member of society. Bensaccount 18:54, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Finally someone understands how ambiguous this is. Now will someone fix this poorly written phrase or should I go on... Bensaccount 18:59, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The lead paragraph still does not make it clear that this is not science. Bensaccount 02:09, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Pseudoscience means not science. Scientists call it a pseudoscience and reject it as religious-based instead of scientifically-based. That's what the article was saying. We can not write it saying that Wikipedia itself calls it not a science, because that's an opinion (albeit an opinion held by the overwhelming majority of scientists), not a fact. Why are people still confused on this? DreamGuy 21:19, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
And no it is not an opinion, it is a fact. There is a difference. Bensaccount 21:39, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Are you having trouble telling the difference Ungtss? An opinion is a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty. A fact is a concept whose truth can be proved. Bensaccount 01:28, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for finally trying to differentiate fact from opinion. Now we are trying to define rather than to obfuscate. Bensaccount 18:31, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
We are. For example you say that whether something qualifies as science depends on one's definition of science. I provided two specific definitions, natural science & social science, which were concurrently removed by dreamguy (with no reason other than 'POV has to stop'). Do you intend to give a reason why this is POV Dreamguy? Bensaccount 01:10, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
<<Natural science is defined, and whether it is a conventional definition or not is irrelevant.>>
<<Creation science is a single theory?>>
<<We both agree it is not social science.>>
This is just a personal insult ridden digressive rant. Bensaccount 01:46, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hahaha...Logic....you are kidding right?...did you READ what you wrote? It is convention that the pet that barks is called a dog. If someone decides that the pet that meows will henceforth also be called a dog, nobody will believe them because they call that pet a cat. Bensaccount 01:49, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Why do I bother with examples if you just take the nouns and change the rest to suit yourself. Bensaccount 04:47, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I said it would be incorrect to call it a cat. Anyways, this example is evidently beyond you so lets just focus on the issue. Creation science is not natural science, nobody would list it as this, because it goes against the definition of natural science: sciences that deal with nature. (its not science, and it deals with the supernatural). Bensaccount 05:21, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I inform you that creation does not fit the definition of natural science because it involves the supernatural, so you make up a brand new definition of supernatural. Now the supernatural is "that which is natural". Nice. Bensaccount 16:08, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Encarta defines supernatural as something departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature. Unlike you I don't make up my own definitions, I prefer to use those found in dictionaries. Bensaccount 19:50, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I.e, " supernatural". Q.E.D.. Guettarda 22:15, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Ok so you finally admit the definition, so how about apologizing for making things up? And apologize for attributing things to me that I never said while you are at it. Bensaccount 22:32, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No you defined supernatural as as "events and beings that follow the laws of nature". You don't seriously think you can convince anyone that this is the same as "appearing to be outside the realm of nature" do you? Bensaccount 22:40, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No you defined supernatural as as "events and beings that follow the laws of nature". You don't seriously think you can convince anyone that this is the same as "appearing to be outside the realm of nature" do you? Bensaccount 22:40, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately I have gotten sidetracked discussing semantics with someone who thinks science is defined as "an effort to understand the supernatural". Anyways, I rather like the current version of the intro, so I have no further complaints. Bensaccount 22:57, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Apparently, not only do you not know the definition of supernatural or the definition of science but you also don't know the definition of semantics. How do you manage to communicate in daily life? Bensaccount 23:02, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Frankly, Ungtss, I am not interested in your make-believe definitions. I am here for the articles. Go preach to the other creationists on your talk page, you have no audience here. Bensaccount 23:17, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Popper defines science as 'testable' statements. Bensaccount 23:26, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sure he does.... Bensaccount 23:34, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I wonder if Ungtss could name a single supernatural event that has been empirically observed. Is the Pioneer anomaly a supernatural event? How about the Mpemba effect? Joshuaschroeder 00:17, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My concern is with people making up definitions and attributing them to Karl Popper. Bensaccount 19:19, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Can you provide a quotation to back that up? Bensaccount 03:41, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If you can quote Popper as defining science as exploring the unexplained, turning the unfalsifiable into the falsifiable and the metaphysical into the theoretical, it would show you aren't attributing your personal biases to Popper. Bensaccount 12:49, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Ben - people quote Popper all the time, but most people have not read Popper. It would be good if anything attributed to Popper had a reference. I had a rather mistaken impression of "Popperian science" until I started reading his stuff. Guettarda 13:14, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
In other words, you can't provide a quotation of him defining science the way you said he did, so you are providing a completely unrelated quotation instead. Bensaccount 15:45, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Firstly, you didn't cite it, so I can not look it up in context. Secondly, saying that science proceeds by conjecture and refutation is not even remotely similar to saying science proceeds by turning the unfalsifiable into the falsifiable. Bensaccount 15:56, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If the conjecture truly was unfalsifiable then it wouldn't be possible to falsify it. First you make up a definition. Next you attribute your make-believe definition to Popper. Next you provide a completely unrelated quotation and pretend it backs up your fantasy. Next you refuse to cite where you found this quotation but point to a book which may or may not contain it. And finally you make the above statement which seems to lack any logic whatsoever. What next Ungtss? Bensaccount 01:30, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thats a lot of digressive rhetoric, but it doesn't address the issue raised by Hob and I. Bensaccount 15:35, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What nonsense. What is the subject of the above paragraph? Save your "correct grammar" for the page. All you are doing is trying to piss me off. Bensaccount 22:15, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
And we were talking about your using the term "unfalsifiable" when you mean "unfalsified" or "seeminly unfalsifiable to certain people". Hence your rant about something being "strictly and absolutely incorrect" and subsequent rant about "poppers application of falsifiability to psychology and evolution" completely miss the issue raised by Hob and me. Bensaccount 22:29, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Do you have anything you would like to change regarding this page? If not, lets just call this quits. Bensaccount 23:10, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a democracy if you have any valid changes you want made, state them. There is no point in you trolling this talk page with fake definitions if you arent even trying to improve the article. Bensaccount 15:45, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You have not shown how it is not a natural science so there is no reason not to put this in the intro. The reasons in the intro show it is not science. The fact that it deals with the supernatural show this. Its deviation from the scientific method show this. Its rejection by all scientists shows this. I could go on. You have nothing. Bensaccount 16:00, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No they reflect the standard dictionary definition of natural science. Thus creation science is not a natural science. Bensaccount 16:14, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
<<The term natural science as the way in which different fields of study are defined is determined as much by historical convention as by the present day meaning of the words.>>
So we both agree the definition is conventional (like all definitions) and doesn't include creation science. Bensaccount 16:23, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No, we use the standard convention. We use words as the majority of people will understand them. We follow the dictionary definition. See you tomorrow Ungtss. Bensaccount 16:29, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Creation science does not involve experimental investigation. Like you say, it constructs its theoretical explanations based on Genesis, rather than on observations. This means it is not science. Bensaccount 14:45, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
That is not experimental investigation, that is dogma. Bensaccount 15:06, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
There is no evidence AT ALL for creation. Genesis is not evidence, just like the Iliad is not taken as evidence of Zeus. There is a lot of evidence that supports abiogenesis which is why it is an accepted scientific theory. This is yet another in the long list of reasons why creation science is not science on this page. Bensaccount 15:33, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
It quite possibly was entirely fictional. This doesn't mean the Iliad has no value to it, it simply means that it is not scientific evidence. I'll see you tomorrow Ungtss. Bensaccount 15:45, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Can people here working on this article also check out Theistic realism? I'd like to get a consensus from more than the two editors on how to proceed with this. Also, take a look at Talk:theistic realism. Thanks. Joshuaschroeder 01:25, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
dreamguy, you said they were unattractive, clumsy, and unhelpful. attractiveness i can fix. why are they clumsy and unhelpful? I think they allow an easy way to understand the flow of thought in the creationist view -- how things flow from presupposition through science to different conclusions, and how the other one sees the conflict as simply science/religion. Ungtss 00:32, 1 May 2005 (UTC)