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The second paragraph says the defence of claiming a criticism is crab mentality may be an "appeal to envy" (in some contexts).
The Ka Larry Pelayo reference says "accusers are said to be suffering from crab mentality" by the accused as a ( red herring) defence but the reference does not even use the words "argumentum ad invidiam" or the words "appeal to envy" anywhere. The constitution.org reference gives a definition of "argumentum ad invidiam" and uses the words "appeal to envy" but does not refer to crab mentality anywhere. Neither author is saying the defence of claiming a criticism to be crab mentality is an "appeal to envy" and in fact, this does not fit the definition.
Going through the definitions on constitution.org and the Wikipedia fallacies page, a crab mentality attack may be an "appeal to envy" but a defence claiming a criticism is unwarranted because it is an appeal to envy would not itself be an "appeal to envy", it could however be an "appeal to motive".
The following rewording is suggested:
Using crab mentality to appeal to the envy of others to have them accept erroneous statements is known as an argumentum ad invidiam which is one of the logical fallacies [1]. However, the popularity of the phrase has made accusing opponents of crab mentality a common form of defense against criticism, whether the criticism is valid or not [2] which, depending on the context, may be an example of the red herring logical fallacy of appeal to motive.
which better fits what the original article was talking about, keeps the original reference (available on Archive.org), correctly uses "appeal to envy" and correctly classifies the red herring defence. -- npcomp ( talk) updated 22:05, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
References
"Using crab mentality" is correct. Here's an example:
A hates B for some reason B did well in his exams and discloses that A tells others that B's disclosure means that he thinks he is "better than them" to appeal to their envy and to pull down B
The reference to the Constitution Society is the original reference, not one I added. To my recollection, the "appeal to envy" fallacy was also listed on the logical fallacy Wikipedia page at some point, but may have been deleted in a (potentially erroneous) edit. At this point, the second paragraph says:
The popularity of the phrase has made accusing opponents of crab mentality a common form of defense against criticism, whether the criticism is valid or not. [1] Depending on the context, this tactic may fall under the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad invidiam, or appeal to envy. [2] disputed – discuss
which is simply incorrect as noted (the attack is an "appeal to envy" but the defence is an "appeal to motive"). You are welcome to suggest an alternate rewording and references. Alternatively you could suggest a deletion of this paragraph as it is arguably not needed as shown by the (related) tall poppy syndrome page.
-- npcomp ( talk) 22:05, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
References
I propose removing the section about Tall Poppy Syndrome. I live in Australia and have heard the term 'tall poppy syndrome' plenty of times. I've not once heard it used to mean 'the tall poppy using his power to hold others down'. Every time I've heard it, the meaning has been the same as crab mentality.
There are two references meant to be supporting the idea that the two concepts are different. One is a paper about cyberbulling. It only compares and contrasts the two concepts in it's intro and it doesn't support the idea that the two concepts are different at all:
The second reference is a blog post. It discusses which is more destructive; people below dragging down those above, or those above using their power to hold down those trying to climb up. In this blog post the author references published research that says the terms are synonymous: "So to Spacey and Kirkwood and Viitanen, the terms are synonymous and the common issue is envy and malice from the masses rather than patch protection and alpha dog behaviour from above. This is clearly at odds, at least to me..."
The author pontificates a bit about whether the terms mean the same thing or not. I'm not actually clear about what the author's conclusion is (too many metaphors and colloquial terms for me). Regardless, it is just a personal opinion. And heck, even the author states his opinion is in opposition to the common usage.
Using these two references to claim that tall poppy syndrome is different from crab mentality is just plain wrong. I'm sure if I just remove the section though that it will get re-added so I thought I'd better add a discussion note first.
My opinion is to remove the section entirely. There's already a link to Tall Poppy Syndrom in the 'See also' section and I think that's appropriate.
Thoughts?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gechurch ( talk • contribs) 01:23, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
--
-- npcomp ( talk) Updated 19:43, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
References
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The second paragraph says the defence of claiming a criticism is crab mentality may be an "appeal to envy" (in some contexts).
The Ka Larry Pelayo reference says "accusers are said to be suffering from crab mentality" by the accused as a ( red herring) defence but the reference does not even use the words "argumentum ad invidiam" or the words "appeal to envy" anywhere. The constitution.org reference gives a definition of "argumentum ad invidiam" and uses the words "appeal to envy" but does not refer to crab mentality anywhere. Neither author is saying the defence of claiming a criticism to be crab mentality is an "appeal to envy" and in fact, this does not fit the definition.
Going through the definitions on constitution.org and the Wikipedia fallacies page, a crab mentality attack may be an "appeal to envy" but a defence claiming a criticism is unwarranted because it is an appeal to envy would not itself be an "appeal to envy", it could however be an "appeal to motive".
The following rewording is suggested:
Using crab mentality to appeal to the envy of others to have them accept erroneous statements is known as an argumentum ad invidiam which is one of the logical fallacies [1]. However, the popularity of the phrase has made accusing opponents of crab mentality a common form of defense against criticism, whether the criticism is valid or not [2] which, depending on the context, may be an example of the red herring logical fallacy of appeal to motive.
which better fits what the original article was talking about, keeps the original reference (available on Archive.org), correctly uses "appeal to envy" and correctly classifies the red herring defence. -- npcomp ( talk) updated 22:05, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
References
"Using crab mentality" is correct. Here's an example:
A hates B for some reason B did well in his exams and discloses that A tells others that B's disclosure means that he thinks he is "better than them" to appeal to their envy and to pull down B
The reference to the Constitution Society is the original reference, not one I added. To my recollection, the "appeal to envy" fallacy was also listed on the logical fallacy Wikipedia page at some point, but may have been deleted in a (potentially erroneous) edit. At this point, the second paragraph says:
The popularity of the phrase has made accusing opponents of crab mentality a common form of defense against criticism, whether the criticism is valid or not. [1] Depending on the context, this tactic may fall under the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad invidiam, or appeal to envy. [2] disputed – discuss
which is simply incorrect as noted (the attack is an "appeal to envy" but the defence is an "appeal to motive"). You are welcome to suggest an alternate rewording and references. Alternatively you could suggest a deletion of this paragraph as it is arguably not needed as shown by the (related) tall poppy syndrome page.
-- npcomp ( talk) 22:05, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
References
I propose removing the section about Tall Poppy Syndrome. I live in Australia and have heard the term 'tall poppy syndrome' plenty of times. I've not once heard it used to mean 'the tall poppy using his power to hold others down'. Every time I've heard it, the meaning has been the same as crab mentality.
There are two references meant to be supporting the idea that the two concepts are different. One is a paper about cyberbulling. It only compares and contrasts the two concepts in it's intro and it doesn't support the idea that the two concepts are different at all:
The second reference is a blog post. It discusses which is more destructive; people below dragging down those above, or those above using their power to hold down those trying to climb up. In this blog post the author references published research that says the terms are synonymous: "So to Spacey and Kirkwood and Viitanen, the terms are synonymous and the common issue is envy and malice from the masses rather than patch protection and alpha dog behaviour from above. This is clearly at odds, at least to me..."
The author pontificates a bit about whether the terms mean the same thing or not. I'm not actually clear about what the author's conclusion is (too many metaphors and colloquial terms for me). Regardless, it is just a personal opinion. And heck, even the author states his opinion is in opposition to the common usage.
Using these two references to claim that tall poppy syndrome is different from crab mentality is just plain wrong. I'm sure if I just remove the section though that it will get re-added so I thought I'd better add a discussion note first.
My opinion is to remove the section entirely. There's already a link to Tall Poppy Syndrom in the 'See also' section and I think that's appropriate.
Thoughts?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gechurch ( talk • contribs) 01:23, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
--
-- npcomp ( talk) Updated 19:43, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
References