This article is within the scope of WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Native Americans,
Indigenous peoples in Canada, and related
indigenous peoples of North America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Indigenous peoples of North AmericaWikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North AmericaTemplate:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North AmericaIndigenous peoples of North America articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the
United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to
ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups articles
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: not moved. The evidence presented by
In ictu oculi demonstrates that the people are not the primary topic.
The nominator is also reminded that
WP:UNDAB is an
essay, not a policy or a guideline. An essay contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors, and may usefully be cited as a place to read a particular line of reasoning, but should not be cited as if it represents a community consensus. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
17:19, 12 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Because of that I posted RMs about this in WP:Washington so we could get some people in that state to aver to what is the PRIMARYTOPIC. I know the
Cowlitz River is better-known as "the Cowlitz" but per
WP:UNDAB, "FOO whatever" names are not the same as "FOO".
Skookum1 (
talk)
09:43, 20 March 2014 (UTC)reply
I have done the same with WP:OREGON and WP:CALIFORNIA and WP:CANADA/BC and have tried to file parallel RMs on any disambiguation pages that are involved. I think it's important that people actually from these places have their say, instead of a
WP:CABAL wiki-linguists dominating opposition to all these moves by citing the guideline they wrote to please themselves without reference to other guidelines, including
WP:CRITERIA and
WP:ETHNICGROUP and
WP:UNDAB, and who have a bad habit of being rude (CIVIL as well as NPA) towards anyone who criticizes their actions and pet guideline; one of course was engaged in
WP:BAITing me during last year's RMs as a tactic to resist the changes which consensus has since ruled in "my" favour. (yes, I know UNDAB's only an essay but it's ancillary to CRITERIA and WP:TITLE). In this case please note that
Cowlitz (disambiguation) was moved to
Cowlitz without any discussion whatsoever.
Skookum1 (
talk)
09:46, 20 March 2014 (UTC)reply
the "Conciseness" and "Precision" components of WP:CRITERIA that were not observed by the author of NCLANG, and are part of the basis of WP:UNDAB, which makes one hell of a lot of sense to me. As for the cabal, I know you are not a part of it, partly because you're not condescending and peremptory as they too often are; their track record with these moves is all over the histories of these RMs, and they very pointedly ignored the "old consensus" about using stand-alone names and/or native names (in Canada mostly only) and it is with great regret that I/we never took the time to codify those into a guideline; but
WP:ETHNICGROUP has summarized much of it, and that guideline/policy should have been considered by those operating in the NCLANG bubble. One difference in Canada, unlike this case, is that native groups have re-jigged their names in modern times expressly to differentiate themselves from cities/towns/regions that borrowed/adapted their names, and this has been adopted widely into modern Canadian English since the '80s and especially since the '90s. In the case of the US, the native name forms are largely unused, one exception being the
Yakama, another being the
Palus, another the
Spokan, though I must note in passing that the
Lummi people and
Nooksack people articles were originally in their native forms by dint of the same "old era" discussions....damn I miss
User:Phaedriel, who helped craft that consensus, which was partly come up with to encourage indigenous editors to contribute instead of driving them away by imposing archaic/academic terms as if their own preferences did not matter;
User:OldManRivers of course was another part of that consensus, as was
User:Murderbike (who is Nooksack).
Skookum1 (
talk)
10:12, 20 March 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose until the issue is addressed properly. These should be discussed at a centralized location.
There was a discussion once on whether the ethnicity should have precedence for the name, and it was decided it shouldn't. That could be revisited. But it really should be one discussion on the principle, not thousands of separate discussions at every ethnicity in the world over whether it should be at "X", "Xs", or "X people". —
kwami (
talk)
12:25, 20 March 2014 (UTC)reply
"These should be discussed at a centralized location." LOL that's funny I already tried that and got criticized for mis-procedure. Your pet guideline was never discussed at a central location nor even brought up with other affected/conflicting guidelines nor any relevant wikiprojects. And as for "There was a discussion once on whether the ethnicity should have precedence for the name, and it was decided it shouldn't" that's fine to say about a discussion that you presided over on an isolated guideline talkpage that you didn't invite anyone but your friends into..... WP:ETHNICGROUPS is clear on the variability of "X", "Xs", or "X people" and says nothing being people mandatorily added as you rewrote your guideline to promote/enact. It says quite the opposite; the CRITERIA page also says that prior consensus should be respected, and those who crafted it an attempt to contact them towards building a new consensus done; and calls for consistency within related topics which "we" long ago had devised the use of "FOO" and often "PREFERRED ENDONYM" (for Canada especially, where such terms are common English now and your pet terms are obsolete and in disuse and often of clearly racist origin e.g.
Slavey people). The crafters of the ethnicities and tribes naming convention (which your guideline violates) clearly respected our collective decisions/consensus from long ago re both standalone names without "people/tribe/nation/peoples" unless absolutely necessary and also re the use of endonyms where available; but when I brought it up in the RMs of last year you insulted and baited me and still lost. Now you want a centralized discussion when you made no such effort yourself and were in fact dismissive about any such effort. Pfft. NCLANG fans like to pretend
WP:OWNership on this issue, especially yourself as its author but that's a crock. The way to "address this issue properly" is to examine all of these, but bulk of them needless directs from then-long-standing titles moved by yourself, one by one as I was instructed/advised re the bulk RMs; as case-by-case decisions are needed. You want a centralized discussion, but never held one yourself.
Skookum1 (
talk)
12:50, 20 March 2014 (UTC)reply
No, no-one would criticize you for discussing this rationally. But this multitude of move requests is disruptive. They should all be closed without prejudice. —
kwami (
talk)
14:32, 20 March 2014 (UTC)reply
Support per nom. An identified people should be the primary topic of a term absent something remarkable standing in the way.
bd2412T02:29, 22 March 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose. There needs to be a demonstrated primary topic. There are too many articles on the dab page for the guideline on dropping people from the title to apply here. If that is the issue, then move to
Cowlitz (people as the best option.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
20:20, 10 April 2014 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Native Americans,
Indigenous peoples in Canada, and related
indigenous peoples of North America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Indigenous peoples of North AmericaWikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North AmericaTemplate:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North AmericaIndigenous peoples of North America articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the
United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to
ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups articles
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: not moved. The evidence presented by
In ictu oculi demonstrates that the people are not the primary topic.
The nominator is also reminded that
WP:UNDAB is an
essay, not a policy or a guideline. An essay contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors, and may usefully be cited as a place to read a particular line of reasoning, but should not be cited as if it represents a community consensus. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
17:19, 12 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Because of that I posted RMs about this in WP:Washington so we could get some people in that state to aver to what is the PRIMARYTOPIC. I know the
Cowlitz River is better-known as "the Cowlitz" but per
WP:UNDAB, "FOO whatever" names are not the same as "FOO".
Skookum1 (
talk)
09:43, 20 March 2014 (UTC)reply
I have done the same with WP:OREGON and WP:CALIFORNIA and WP:CANADA/BC and have tried to file parallel RMs on any disambiguation pages that are involved. I think it's important that people actually from these places have their say, instead of a
WP:CABAL wiki-linguists dominating opposition to all these moves by citing the guideline they wrote to please themselves without reference to other guidelines, including
WP:CRITERIA and
WP:ETHNICGROUP and
WP:UNDAB, and who have a bad habit of being rude (CIVIL as well as NPA) towards anyone who criticizes their actions and pet guideline; one of course was engaged in
WP:BAITing me during last year's RMs as a tactic to resist the changes which consensus has since ruled in "my" favour. (yes, I know UNDAB's only an essay but it's ancillary to CRITERIA and WP:TITLE). In this case please note that
Cowlitz (disambiguation) was moved to
Cowlitz without any discussion whatsoever.
Skookum1 (
talk)
09:46, 20 March 2014 (UTC)reply
the "Conciseness" and "Precision" components of WP:CRITERIA that were not observed by the author of NCLANG, and are part of the basis of WP:UNDAB, which makes one hell of a lot of sense to me. As for the cabal, I know you are not a part of it, partly because you're not condescending and peremptory as they too often are; their track record with these moves is all over the histories of these RMs, and they very pointedly ignored the "old consensus" about using stand-alone names and/or native names (in Canada mostly only) and it is with great regret that I/we never took the time to codify those into a guideline; but
WP:ETHNICGROUP has summarized much of it, and that guideline/policy should have been considered by those operating in the NCLANG bubble. One difference in Canada, unlike this case, is that native groups have re-jigged their names in modern times expressly to differentiate themselves from cities/towns/regions that borrowed/adapted their names, and this has been adopted widely into modern Canadian English since the '80s and especially since the '90s. In the case of the US, the native name forms are largely unused, one exception being the
Yakama, another being the
Palus, another the
Spokan, though I must note in passing that the
Lummi people and
Nooksack people articles were originally in their native forms by dint of the same "old era" discussions....damn I miss
User:Phaedriel, who helped craft that consensus, which was partly come up with to encourage indigenous editors to contribute instead of driving them away by imposing archaic/academic terms as if their own preferences did not matter;
User:OldManRivers of course was another part of that consensus, as was
User:Murderbike (who is Nooksack).
Skookum1 (
talk)
10:12, 20 March 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose until the issue is addressed properly. These should be discussed at a centralized location.
There was a discussion once on whether the ethnicity should have precedence for the name, and it was decided it shouldn't. That could be revisited. But it really should be one discussion on the principle, not thousands of separate discussions at every ethnicity in the world over whether it should be at "X", "Xs", or "X people". —
kwami (
talk)
12:25, 20 March 2014 (UTC)reply
"These should be discussed at a centralized location." LOL that's funny I already tried that and got criticized for mis-procedure. Your pet guideline was never discussed at a central location nor even brought up with other affected/conflicting guidelines nor any relevant wikiprojects. And as for "There was a discussion once on whether the ethnicity should have precedence for the name, and it was decided it shouldn't" that's fine to say about a discussion that you presided over on an isolated guideline talkpage that you didn't invite anyone but your friends into..... WP:ETHNICGROUPS is clear on the variability of "X", "Xs", or "X people" and says nothing being people mandatorily added as you rewrote your guideline to promote/enact. It says quite the opposite; the CRITERIA page also says that prior consensus should be respected, and those who crafted it an attempt to contact them towards building a new consensus done; and calls for consistency within related topics which "we" long ago had devised the use of "FOO" and often "PREFERRED ENDONYM" (for Canada especially, where such terms are common English now and your pet terms are obsolete and in disuse and often of clearly racist origin e.g.
Slavey people). The crafters of the ethnicities and tribes naming convention (which your guideline violates) clearly respected our collective decisions/consensus from long ago re both standalone names without "people/tribe/nation/peoples" unless absolutely necessary and also re the use of endonyms where available; but when I brought it up in the RMs of last year you insulted and baited me and still lost. Now you want a centralized discussion when you made no such effort yourself and were in fact dismissive about any such effort. Pfft. NCLANG fans like to pretend
WP:OWNership on this issue, especially yourself as its author but that's a crock. The way to "address this issue properly" is to examine all of these, but bulk of them needless directs from then-long-standing titles moved by yourself, one by one as I was instructed/advised re the bulk RMs; as case-by-case decisions are needed. You want a centralized discussion, but never held one yourself.
Skookum1 (
talk)
12:50, 20 March 2014 (UTC)reply
No, no-one would criticize you for discussing this rationally. But this multitude of move requests is disruptive. They should all be closed without prejudice. —
kwami (
talk)
14:32, 20 March 2014 (UTC)reply
Support per nom. An identified people should be the primary topic of a term absent something remarkable standing in the way.
bd2412T02:29, 22 March 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose. There needs to be a demonstrated primary topic. There are too many articles on the dab page for the guideline on dropping people from the title to apply here. If that is the issue, then move to
Cowlitz (people as the best option.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
20:20, 10 April 2014 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.