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I removed this category because the page doesn't really explain in any way how the concept of "covenant" is unique to Calvinism or particularly important to Calvinism, as opposed to other families of Christianity. If someone can edit the page to explain that, then I have no problem with us returning it to that category. KHM03 14:32, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Covenant (Israel) is redunandant and should be deleted, and its link pointed to here. -- Bruce IV
The external link to http://www.federaltheology.org/ (# The Economy of the Covenants Between God and Man by Hermann Witsius) is broken.
The New Covenant, predicted by the prophet Jeremiah in the eponymous book, chapter 31, and connected with Jesus at the Last Supper where he says that the cup is "the New Covenant in [his] blood" and further in the Epistle to the Hebrews (chapters 8-10).
This is a pure christian view and this idea is completely foreigh to judaism. Here is a webpage criticizing the christian view of Jeremiah 31. Now we have two possibilities : 1/ either we indicate that this is a christian view only 2/ or we delete this interpretation because this article is part of both portals (Judaism and Christianity).
I slightly changed the title ; if anybody has a better idea, please discuss it here. -- Squallgreg 19:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm using IE 7 and I see a huge gap (10+ lines worth) after the "Noahic Covenant" headline before the first line of text. I don't see this gap with firefox. Any way to make the entry more IE friendly? I suspect it has to do with placing the photo on the right which wants to go below the "part of a series of articles on Christianity" box.
Mstupak 10:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
On what basis are these types of statements considered "covenants?" The word does not appear in the passages listed and so this entire section appears to be Original Research. 24.6.65.83 23:07, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
The consensus commentary from Christian and Jewish experts is that the covenant giving the land from the Euphrates to the great river in Egypt excludes the descendants of Ishmael. That is why G-d explains and foretells Jacobs descendants being enslaved in Egypt and refers to those as Abram's seed. Please see the lengthy discussion on the talk page for Land of Israel and the many commentaries and proofs shown. Sposer ( talk) 04:03, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Forgive me for intruding in this argument that is clearly out of my league. I think someone should mention Genesis 17:21 [1]. Emmanuelm ( talk) 16:05, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Abraham is comforted in this separation with a renewal of the promise concerning Ishmael Gen_17:20
and again said:
And their(Hagar & Ismael) departure did not imply their exclusion from the privileges of communion with God, as they might still be under the covenant with Abraham, since Ishmael had been circumcised, and, at all events, were under the broader covenant of Noah.
Same thing claimed by Johann Friedrich Karl Keil and John Gill. The covenant with Isaac that Ishmael excluded is a different covenat. And Rashi also never claimed that Ishmael excluded from Promiss.
The Truth will come out, later or sooner , you submit to it or not!-- Submitter to Truth ( talk) 15:04, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
So, I guess I was wrong. Not only is Ishmael excluded from the covenant of the land, but he is also excluded from the covenant of circumcision. I will correct the article as I messed up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sposer ( talk • contribs) 03:12, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
As for Barnes, he said he is not sure, if that is your quote, though not in the source I see from the web. Here is what I see from Barnes, which also says that the covenant is through Isaac, though from Ishmael will descend a great nation:
Genesis 17:15-22
Sarai is now formally taken into the covenant, as she is to be the mother of the promised seed. Her name is therefore changed to Sarah, "princess." Aptly is she so named, for she is to bear the child of promise, to become nations, and be the mother of kings. "Abraham fell upon his face and laughed." From the reverential attitude assumed by Abraham we infer that his laughter sprang from joyful and grateful surprise. "Said in his heart." The following questions of wonder are not addressed to God; they merely agitate the breast of the astonished patriarch. Hence, his irrepressible smile arises not from any doubt of the fulfillment of the promise, but from surprise at the unexpected mode in which it is to be fulfilled. Laughing in Scripture expresses joy in the countenance, as dancing does in the whole body.
Genesis 17:18-20 "And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! 19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation."
Abraham seems up to this time to have regarded Ishmael as the promised seed. Hence, a feeling of anxiety instantly penetrates his breast. It finds utterance in the prayer, "Oh that Ishmael might live before thee." He asks "life" for his beloved son - that is, a share in the divine favor; and that "before God" - that is, a life of holiness and communion with God. But God asseverates his purpose of giving him a son by Sarah. This son is to be called Isaac - he that laughs or he shall laugh, in reference to the various emotions of surprise and delight with which his parents regarded his birth. Abram's prayer for Ishmael, however, is not unanswered. He is to be fruitful, beget twelve princes, and become a great nation. But Isaac is to be the heir of promise. At the present season next year he is to be born. The communication being completed, "God went" up from Abram.
Sposer ( talk) 03:34, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
In the Biblical story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac (I know the Koran says Ishmael), G-d refers to Isaac as Abraham's only son. Ishmael's descendants could not be part of the covenant if G-d did not consider him to be Abraham's son. In the same way, Hagar was not Abraham's wife, but merely his bondwoman/concubine. Sposer ( talk) 15:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
The guide says that pronouns referring to deities are capitalized. Would not capitalize he with regard to Abraham, since he isn't a deity. But, God is a deity, so He is capitalized as it is a pronoun referring to Him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sposer ( talk • contribs) 16:17, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
1. I removed the section on Ishmael because he never received a covenant, but only a blessing, and circumcision with the rest of the males in Abraham's household.
2. The Christian content in the 'New Covenenat' was removed since claims to it are covered elsewhere, and do not enlighten the reader on the significance or content of the prophetic covenant, explicitly stated to be for Israel and Judah.
The entire article needs to be significantly expanded since all it is now is a collection of verse citations-- Meieimatai? 11:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Has anyone noticed that the article seems to have been edited in a way to give the impression that Ephraim are Arabs and they are the rightful inheritors of the land and the covenant is addressing them? Especially clear in the sections Covenant to Issac and Covenant to Israel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wd233 ( talk • contribs) 06:52, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
This section promises to be about the New Covenant in Christianity, but then includes Noahidism, which is not Christian at all. Each section under a header should discuss the subject of the header. Noahidism already has its own header. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sfarney ( talk • contribs) 05:54, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Hello everyone! I would like to add a few new sections. One section would discuss the dissolution of the covenant law for the sake of Monarchial unity. The other section would include phraseological and semantical evidence supporting the theory that the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants where truly grants, as understood by the surrounding cultures, as opposed to a treaty. Does anyone believe this would be a helpful endeavor? ZarathustraSay20 ( talk) 14:28, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Hello, I am a student at Miami University. After reading a journal by Weinfeld, I believe I have some interesting information to add to this page. I am interested in adding more information to the covenant with Abraham involving the grant covenant. Also, I would like to add more about Genesis 15 and the sacrificial aspect it has. AL2015 ( talk) 16:04, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Hello, I am also a student at Miami University. Also based on a journal by Weinfeld, I had a few things I think would be beneficial in pointing out in terms of covenants. I would like to add info about the roles taken on by God and Abraham in terms of the structure of the obligatory covenant. Also adding in what parts of the covenant follow the structure of obligatory covenants and what parts don't. I think this would be beneficial for this page. Any advice or comments are welcome. Thank you. Dkcincy ( talk) 17:21, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Hi there! I'm a student at Miami University enrolled in a course on the Hebrew Bible. I found an interesting comparison and analysis in an article written by Moshe Weinfeld that suggests that the covenants between God and Abraham and God and David are modeled after grants, forms of treaties used in Near East antiquity. This idea would be useful under either the Abrahamic or Davidic covenant sections (or perhaps in a new section?) Sctimmons ( talk) 17:50, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Hi, I am also a student at Miami University enrolled in a hebrew bible class. PG .193-194
Weinfield begins talking about David and how he is mentioned in the old testament. David is known in a few sources as the first born, and how many of gods decedents are alike, however being the first born is a much more significant role. There is a hebrew word mentioning that he was appointed which is his divine right and not one by luck. He was given land and how he shall refer to him as the "father". These pages mention and use words in a family setting to explain the relationship of David and the other states in an easier way. he explains how exactly David became to be known in the pentateuch however some parts are left with gaps making is difficult to understand. Adrugby ( talk) 18:04, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
I would also like to add to the information in this article concerning the differences between promissory and obligatory covenants, and how they are able to be related to the royal grant and political treaty legal documents in biblical times. Specifically, I plan to focus on how these are related to the Davidic and Abrahamic covenants. Slfirme ( talk) 18:34, 11 March 2015 (UTC) [1]
This section has several problems, User:IMcayat. First, it doesn't reference any secondary, reliable source, such as academic Biblical scholarship. Second, it seems to rely on the Bible itself as a source, which isn't suitable for Wikipedia and thus appears as original research. Third, it seems to lack a Neutral Point of View -- for instance with "There is a grace that will be bestowed upon his children even in the midst of their sins." -- and NPOV is necessary here. Finally, it's not clear why this deserves its own section and can't be integrated elsewhere -- which covenant is this section about? ProfGray ( talk) 17:19, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
"In the ancient middle east (in which the Bible was written), a covenant was a formal agreement"
This is not true. The first covenant in the Bible that could be considered an agreement was with Moses. All others were promises attached with signs. No agreement on the part of man was made. [Unsigned comment by Chuckd83.]
Why does the first paragraph of this section seem biased towards Judaism and has no citations or sources? 46.135.2.178 ( talk) 11:57, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
your fatherless 2A0D:6FC7:55E:D489:578:5634:1232:5476 ( talk) 09:54, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article was the subject of an educational assignment in Spring 2015. Further details are available on the course page. |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I removed this category because the page doesn't really explain in any way how the concept of "covenant" is unique to Calvinism or particularly important to Calvinism, as opposed to other families of Christianity. If someone can edit the page to explain that, then I have no problem with us returning it to that category. KHM03 14:32, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Covenant (Israel) is redunandant and should be deleted, and its link pointed to here. -- Bruce IV
The external link to http://www.federaltheology.org/ (# The Economy of the Covenants Between God and Man by Hermann Witsius) is broken.
The New Covenant, predicted by the prophet Jeremiah in the eponymous book, chapter 31, and connected with Jesus at the Last Supper where he says that the cup is "the New Covenant in [his] blood" and further in the Epistle to the Hebrews (chapters 8-10).
This is a pure christian view and this idea is completely foreigh to judaism. Here is a webpage criticizing the christian view of Jeremiah 31. Now we have two possibilities : 1/ either we indicate that this is a christian view only 2/ or we delete this interpretation because this article is part of both portals (Judaism and Christianity).
I slightly changed the title ; if anybody has a better idea, please discuss it here. -- Squallgreg 19:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm using IE 7 and I see a huge gap (10+ lines worth) after the "Noahic Covenant" headline before the first line of text. I don't see this gap with firefox. Any way to make the entry more IE friendly? I suspect it has to do with placing the photo on the right which wants to go below the "part of a series of articles on Christianity" box.
Mstupak 10:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
On what basis are these types of statements considered "covenants?" The word does not appear in the passages listed and so this entire section appears to be Original Research. 24.6.65.83 23:07, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
The consensus commentary from Christian and Jewish experts is that the covenant giving the land from the Euphrates to the great river in Egypt excludes the descendants of Ishmael. That is why G-d explains and foretells Jacobs descendants being enslaved in Egypt and refers to those as Abram's seed. Please see the lengthy discussion on the talk page for Land of Israel and the many commentaries and proofs shown. Sposer ( talk) 04:03, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Forgive me for intruding in this argument that is clearly out of my league. I think someone should mention Genesis 17:21 [1]. Emmanuelm ( talk) 16:05, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Abraham is comforted in this separation with a renewal of the promise concerning Ishmael Gen_17:20
and again said:
And their(Hagar & Ismael) departure did not imply their exclusion from the privileges of communion with God, as they might still be under the covenant with Abraham, since Ishmael had been circumcised, and, at all events, were under the broader covenant of Noah.
Same thing claimed by Johann Friedrich Karl Keil and John Gill. The covenant with Isaac that Ishmael excluded is a different covenat. And Rashi also never claimed that Ishmael excluded from Promiss.
The Truth will come out, later or sooner , you submit to it or not!-- Submitter to Truth ( talk) 15:04, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
So, I guess I was wrong. Not only is Ishmael excluded from the covenant of the land, but he is also excluded from the covenant of circumcision. I will correct the article as I messed up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sposer ( talk • contribs) 03:12, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
As for Barnes, he said he is not sure, if that is your quote, though not in the source I see from the web. Here is what I see from Barnes, which also says that the covenant is through Isaac, though from Ishmael will descend a great nation:
Genesis 17:15-22
Sarai is now formally taken into the covenant, as she is to be the mother of the promised seed. Her name is therefore changed to Sarah, "princess." Aptly is she so named, for she is to bear the child of promise, to become nations, and be the mother of kings. "Abraham fell upon his face and laughed." From the reverential attitude assumed by Abraham we infer that his laughter sprang from joyful and grateful surprise. "Said in his heart." The following questions of wonder are not addressed to God; they merely agitate the breast of the astonished patriarch. Hence, his irrepressible smile arises not from any doubt of the fulfillment of the promise, but from surprise at the unexpected mode in which it is to be fulfilled. Laughing in Scripture expresses joy in the countenance, as dancing does in the whole body.
Genesis 17:18-20 "And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! 19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation."
Abraham seems up to this time to have regarded Ishmael as the promised seed. Hence, a feeling of anxiety instantly penetrates his breast. It finds utterance in the prayer, "Oh that Ishmael might live before thee." He asks "life" for his beloved son - that is, a share in the divine favor; and that "before God" - that is, a life of holiness and communion with God. But God asseverates his purpose of giving him a son by Sarah. This son is to be called Isaac - he that laughs or he shall laugh, in reference to the various emotions of surprise and delight with which his parents regarded his birth. Abram's prayer for Ishmael, however, is not unanswered. He is to be fruitful, beget twelve princes, and become a great nation. But Isaac is to be the heir of promise. At the present season next year he is to be born. The communication being completed, "God went" up from Abram.
Sposer ( talk) 03:34, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
In the Biblical story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac (I know the Koran says Ishmael), G-d refers to Isaac as Abraham's only son. Ishmael's descendants could not be part of the covenant if G-d did not consider him to be Abraham's son. In the same way, Hagar was not Abraham's wife, but merely his bondwoman/concubine. Sposer ( talk) 15:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
The guide says that pronouns referring to deities are capitalized. Would not capitalize he with regard to Abraham, since he isn't a deity. But, God is a deity, so He is capitalized as it is a pronoun referring to Him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sposer ( talk • contribs) 16:17, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
1. I removed the section on Ishmael because he never received a covenant, but only a blessing, and circumcision with the rest of the males in Abraham's household.
2. The Christian content in the 'New Covenenat' was removed since claims to it are covered elsewhere, and do not enlighten the reader on the significance or content of the prophetic covenant, explicitly stated to be for Israel and Judah.
The entire article needs to be significantly expanded since all it is now is a collection of verse citations-- Meieimatai? 11:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Has anyone noticed that the article seems to have been edited in a way to give the impression that Ephraim are Arabs and they are the rightful inheritors of the land and the covenant is addressing them? Especially clear in the sections Covenant to Issac and Covenant to Israel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wd233 ( talk • contribs) 06:52, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
This section promises to be about the New Covenant in Christianity, but then includes Noahidism, which is not Christian at all. Each section under a header should discuss the subject of the header. Noahidism already has its own header. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sfarney ( talk • contribs) 05:54, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Hello everyone! I would like to add a few new sections. One section would discuss the dissolution of the covenant law for the sake of Monarchial unity. The other section would include phraseological and semantical evidence supporting the theory that the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants where truly grants, as understood by the surrounding cultures, as opposed to a treaty. Does anyone believe this would be a helpful endeavor? ZarathustraSay20 ( talk) 14:28, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Hello, I am a student at Miami University. After reading a journal by Weinfeld, I believe I have some interesting information to add to this page. I am interested in adding more information to the covenant with Abraham involving the grant covenant. Also, I would like to add more about Genesis 15 and the sacrificial aspect it has. AL2015 ( talk) 16:04, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Hello, I am also a student at Miami University. Also based on a journal by Weinfeld, I had a few things I think would be beneficial in pointing out in terms of covenants. I would like to add info about the roles taken on by God and Abraham in terms of the structure of the obligatory covenant. Also adding in what parts of the covenant follow the structure of obligatory covenants and what parts don't. I think this would be beneficial for this page. Any advice or comments are welcome. Thank you. Dkcincy ( talk) 17:21, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Hi there! I'm a student at Miami University enrolled in a course on the Hebrew Bible. I found an interesting comparison and analysis in an article written by Moshe Weinfeld that suggests that the covenants between God and Abraham and God and David are modeled after grants, forms of treaties used in Near East antiquity. This idea would be useful under either the Abrahamic or Davidic covenant sections (or perhaps in a new section?) Sctimmons ( talk) 17:50, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Hi, I am also a student at Miami University enrolled in a hebrew bible class. PG .193-194
Weinfield begins talking about David and how he is mentioned in the old testament. David is known in a few sources as the first born, and how many of gods decedents are alike, however being the first born is a much more significant role. There is a hebrew word mentioning that he was appointed which is his divine right and not one by luck. He was given land and how he shall refer to him as the "father". These pages mention and use words in a family setting to explain the relationship of David and the other states in an easier way. he explains how exactly David became to be known in the pentateuch however some parts are left with gaps making is difficult to understand. Adrugby ( talk) 18:04, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
I would also like to add to the information in this article concerning the differences between promissory and obligatory covenants, and how they are able to be related to the royal grant and political treaty legal documents in biblical times. Specifically, I plan to focus on how these are related to the Davidic and Abrahamic covenants. Slfirme ( talk) 18:34, 11 March 2015 (UTC) [1]
This section has several problems, User:IMcayat. First, it doesn't reference any secondary, reliable source, such as academic Biblical scholarship. Second, it seems to rely on the Bible itself as a source, which isn't suitable for Wikipedia and thus appears as original research. Third, it seems to lack a Neutral Point of View -- for instance with "There is a grace that will be bestowed upon his children even in the midst of their sins." -- and NPOV is necessary here. Finally, it's not clear why this deserves its own section and can't be integrated elsewhere -- which covenant is this section about? ProfGray ( talk) 17:19, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
"In the ancient middle east (in which the Bible was written), a covenant was a formal agreement"
This is not true. The first covenant in the Bible that could be considered an agreement was with Moses. All others were promises attached with signs. No agreement on the part of man was made. [Unsigned comment by Chuckd83.]
Why does the first paragraph of this section seem biased towards Judaism and has no citations or sources? 46.135.2.178 ( talk) 11:57, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
your fatherless 2A0D:6FC7:55E:D489:578:5634:1232:5476 ( talk) 09:54, 13 November 2023 (UTC)