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Something needs to be said about tribunals here. In England and Wales a "tribunal" is often something different from a court (with some notable exceptions). Francis Davey 01:40, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It should also be said that the description of a court room is nonsense for my jurisdiction (England and Wales), which while not "typical" perhaps, is the oldest common law jurisdiction. Some things such as not having a flag; courts rarely being wood panelled and so on stand out. I cannot visualise where the "bar" is supposed to go in a court room from the description given. I have appeared in quite a few courts and never been aware of an area that only I may enter.
Perhaps those who work in jurisdictions with more typical court rooms could make a description that can be visualised (which way does the bar go for example) and make it clear that things differ.
In England and Wales there are some curious differences, eg in most London Magistrates' Courts there is a single Royal Coat of Arms above the judge, in the City of London there is a vertical sword in its place flanked by the Royal and City Coats of Arms (one has to do something to while away the hours waiting to be called on). Francis Davey 01:45, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've added some of the above, rather than tried to edit what is there. I hope this will prompt someone to do a bit of editing -- someone who knows more than I do about courts around the world. An explanation of what the "bar" is would be cool to.
Francis Davey 22:07, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Can someone explain the passage in this about pluripersonal courts, it makes no sense to me (a practising barrister in England). Does the pluripersonal describe the size of the tribunal -- eg 3 judges usually sit in our Court of Appeal of England and Wales, or does it refer to the number of members of the court itself? The paragraph at the moment is deeply mysterious.
Francis Davey 11:00, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Hi, I'm doing a re-draft on my user page (leaving the article as it stands), in response to (and agreement with) the Rfe. I think the present article is well thought out in structure but could do with some re-arrangement; and fleshing out of content particularly to enable linking to very good existing material on related topics. I'm new to town. So comment, help, directions and company would be more than welcome. Apart from treatment of Francis Davey's requests already noted in the draft, explaining "bar" should be interesting. VivekM 23:33, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi, although I'm not a civil law qualified lawyer (and more than prepared to be corrected), it is not my understanding that civil law is based on French law (although France is of course a civil law jurisdiction); rather Roman law. Wikipedia contains a helpful entry on Civil Law (see the second link on the disambiguation page). Regards, -- DRN 19:40, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I corrected some of the verbiage in the article. In the United States, for example, in the case of many Federal courts, the judge actually IS "the court," by statute. Of course, the term "the court" can also refer to the room or place where the proceeding is held, and that is the more common use of the term. Yours, Famspear 23:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I removed this:
The court was traditionally where the monarch gave an audience to visitors. These audiences were often appellants requesting the monarchs judgement in resolving a dispute. European monarchs of the medieval period, such as Englands Henry II, found it expedient to appoint representatives, known as magistrates, to dispense justice on their behalf. These magistrates were set up in houses across the country as surrogates of the Royal Court and so were also known as courts. These became the basis of the modern legal administration system and the word court has come to mean a place where the law is heard.
because it is so horridly confused in its historical account that it is far more misleading to leave it in. I am not sure I am able to produce something accurate to replace it or what should go there (if anything). One difficulty is that it is far from clear that a "court" is originally a specifically royal court. In any case the history is all wrong. There are lots and lots of non-royal courts long before Henry II (Sheriff's courts, market courts, courts of feudal lords, courts of the counties Palatine, courts of the vil and hundred and so on). Magistrates or justices of the peace were a separate creation (as a counter-balance to the power of the Sheriff amongst other things) and had nothing to do with the central justice of the Royal courts. Local instances of Royal justice was carried out first through the institution of the Eyre and then via the system of judges going on circuit (even here I am simplifiying of course) at first with specific commissions, then with more general ones, not to mention the use of judicial writs to have matters heard in the county. None of this has anything to do with justices of the peace. Francis Davey ( talk) 23:48, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
The lead now says that a court is a "government institution" and cites beginners textbook on law for source. How can that be right? Is the Court of Arches a government institution? For that matter the various Beth Din or any international court could not be described as a "government" institution. Looks wrong to me. Comments? Francis Davey ( talk) 11:13, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Me's still busy [not really, :-)], back soon :-) VivekM ( talk) 03:52, 25 June 2009 (UTC) today november 9 is my birthday and i am so proud of my self beacouse i am growing up and i a getting more meture i think
This article has an audience. The article, in various places, gives examples in good faith that would be familiar to readers and aids comprehension of the concepts...but only if you are from the US, the UK, or France. Someone else had already requested globalization, and I decided to specify the template after reading over the article. -- Mr. Guye ( talk) 22:56, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
I am in agreeance with several posters regarding this particular article. As noted above, Civil Law is a variant of Roman Law and was not conceptualized by the French. This portion of the article needs some fleshing out and restructuring. Mmcasse ( talk) 00:52, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus, leaning towards not moved. Primary topic has two criteria and it has been shown in the discussion that the law court meets the usage criterion. The long-term significance criterion is a lot more subjective and reasonable arguments have been made from both sides. Regardless, with the head count roughly split, one of two criteria favouring the status quo, and the other criterion up for debate, there can't be considered a consensus to move and, if anything, there could arguably be a consensus against moving.
The discussion of Court (royal) → Royal court got lost in the wash a bit. I'd recommend starting a separate RM for it that won't get muddied with primary topic concerns. Jenks24 ( talk) 20:53, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
– From research, what I am seeing is that it looks as though the subject currently at the ambiguous title Court and the subject at Court (royal) are both as significant as each other historically. Also, the current primary topic only averages about 2x the amount of page views than Court (royal) does. For this reason, the disambiguation page should probably be moved to the ambiguous title so that readers can try to figure out which article they are trying to locate. Steel1943 ( talk) 02:07, 16 August 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 ( talk) 11:48, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
"[a] topic is primary for a term, with respect to usage, if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term"(emphasis in original)).
"the topic that is primary with respect to usage"? I just provided four metrics that indicate it is
"highly likely""court of law" is
"the topic sought when a reader searches for"the term "court." The evidence listed in my previous post is both relevant and informative (incidentally, the word " valid" is a term that is used to describe arguments, not evidence). Your argument goes something like this: "there are high readership totals for both court and court (royal), therefore ambiguity must exist." This argument is nether valid nor sound; the evidence simply does not support your conclusion. There could be many reasons why there are high readership totals. For example, there may be a disproportionately large number of readers interested in medieval history, or there may be less interest in learning about courts of law. That does not mean, however, that "court of law" is not
"the topic that is primary with respect to usage"in the English language. -- Notecardforfree ( talk) 17:24, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
"Usage in English reliable sources demonstrated with Google web, news, scholar, or book searches", which I included in my previous comment. As I explained in my previous remarks, an article may be "more sought" (and therefore have more page views) for all kinds of reasons. One reason is that Wikipedia readers are likely not a representative sample of the English speaking population. It might also be the case that the topic of royal courts is more interesting to the average reader than a court of law, and thus attracts a disproportionately large number of readers relative to the article about "courts of law." Therefore, readership totals may not be the best metric for determining the primary use of the term in the English language. I would be very curious to see some objective evidence of "long term significance" with regard to how the term "court" has been used, but I have not seen any such evidence. In any case, it doesn't look like there is consensus here to change the status quo. -- Notecardforfree ( talk) 17:50, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
"neither 'court of law nor 'royal court' are commonly recognizable"is a straw man. You admit that
"if one topic surpasses all the others, grant it WP:PRIMARYTOPIC status". This is precisely what we have shown with our data above. I would love to see some data or facts to support your position, but so far you have provided none (aside from your spurious conclusions about page view statistics). Please try to observe WP:CIVIL, respond to the merits of our arguments, and do not resort to ad hominem attacks. Thanks, -- Notecardforfree ( talk) 16:22, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
"highly likely""court of law" is
"the topic sought when a reader searches for"the term "court" (quoting from WP:PRIMARYTOPIC). In earlier discussions, Hut 8.5 demonstrated how page views have been misinterpreted, and I also explained above that page views are likely not a reliable indicator of the primary use of the term in the English language. Again, please direct your comments to the merits of these arguments and keep in mind that WP:NPA states that is is
"never acceptable"to use
"someone's affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views". Best, -- Notecardforfree ( talk) 16:09, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
...may.... (Amazing how that word was overlooked which essentially set the tone for my entire comment.) Steel1943 ( talk) 16:15, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
It seems Asian, African, Eastern European, and South Asian Island cultures seem to have been excluded from discussion in this article. You can discuss edits in replies to this post. --- 73.225.242.40 ( talk) 23:42, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
No, I doubt that they have been "excluded". Wikipedia works on the basis of volunteer editors. It is more likely that simply no editor has yet contributed information about courts in Asia, Africa, etc. Inclusion of material about courts in the West, for example, does not mean that material on courts in Asia has been "excluded." All Wikipedia articles are works in progress. If and when some editor contributes material on courts in Asia, Africa, etc., then that material can be considered. Famspear ( talk) 15:08, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
Moreover, a chronology of the rising of courts worldwide would improve this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.118.227.221 ( talk) 17:45, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
![]() | This article was selected as the article for improvement on 26 June 2013 for a period of one week. |
Something needs to be said about tribunals here. In England and Wales a "tribunal" is often something different from a court (with some notable exceptions). Francis Davey 01:40, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It should also be said that the description of a court room is nonsense for my jurisdiction (England and Wales), which while not "typical" perhaps, is the oldest common law jurisdiction. Some things such as not having a flag; courts rarely being wood panelled and so on stand out. I cannot visualise where the "bar" is supposed to go in a court room from the description given. I have appeared in quite a few courts and never been aware of an area that only I may enter.
Perhaps those who work in jurisdictions with more typical court rooms could make a description that can be visualised (which way does the bar go for example) and make it clear that things differ.
In England and Wales there are some curious differences, eg in most London Magistrates' Courts there is a single Royal Coat of Arms above the judge, in the City of London there is a vertical sword in its place flanked by the Royal and City Coats of Arms (one has to do something to while away the hours waiting to be called on). Francis Davey 01:45, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've added some of the above, rather than tried to edit what is there. I hope this will prompt someone to do a bit of editing -- someone who knows more than I do about courts around the world. An explanation of what the "bar" is would be cool to.
Francis Davey 22:07, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Can someone explain the passage in this about pluripersonal courts, it makes no sense to me (a practising barrister in England). Does the pluripersonal describe the size of the tribunal -- eg 3 judges usually sit in our Court of Appeal of England and Wales, or does it refer to the number of members of the court itself? The paragraph at the moment is deeply mysterious.
Francis Davey 11:00, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Hi, I'm doing a re-draft on my user page (leaving the article as it stands), in response to (and agreement with) the Rfe. I think the present article is well thought out in structure but could do with some re-arrangement; and fleshing out of content particularly to enable linking to very good existing material on related topics. I'm new to town. So comment, help, directions and company would be more than welcome. Apart from treatment of Francis Davey's requests already noted in the draft, explaining "bar" should be interesting. VivekM 23:33, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi, although I'm not a civil law qualified lawyer (and more than prepared to be corrected), it is not my understanding that civil law is based on French law (although France is of course a civil law jurisdiction); rather Roman law. Wikipedia contains a helpful entry on Civil Law (see the second link on the disambiguation page). Regards, -- DRN 19:40, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I corrected some of the verbiage in the article. In the United States, for example, in the case of many Federal courts, the judge actually IS "the court," by statute. Of course, the term "the court" can also refer to the room or place where the proceeding is held, and that is the more common use of the term. Yours, Famspear 23:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I removed this:
The court was traditionally where the monarch gave an audience to visitors. These audiences were often appellants requesting the monarchs judgement in resolving a dispute. European monarchs of the medieval period, such as Englands Henry II, found it expedient to appoint representatives, known as magistrates, to dispense justice on their behalf. These magistrates were set up in houses across the country as surrogates of the Royal Court and so were also known as courts. These became the basis of the modern legal administration system and the word court has come to mean a place where the law is heard.
because it is so horridly confused in its historical account that it is far more misleading to leave it in. I am not sure I am able to produce something accurate to replace it or what should go there (if anything). One difficulty is that it is far from clear that a "court" is originally a specifically royal court. In any case the history is all wrong. There are lots and lots of non-royal courts long before Henry II (Sheriff's courts, market courts, courts of feudal lords, courts of the counties Palatine, courts of the vil and hundred and so on). Magistrates or justices of the peace were a separate creation (as a counter-balance to the power of the Sheriff amongst other things) and had nothing to do with the central justice of the Royal courts. Local instances of Royal justice was carried out first through the institution of the Eyre and then via the system of judges going on circuit (even here I am simplifiying of course) at first with specific commissions, then with more general ones, not to mention the use of judicial writs to have matters heard in the county. None of this has anything to do with justices of the peace. Francis Davey ( talk) 23:48, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
The lead now says that a court is a "government institution" and cites beginners textbook on law for source. How can that be right? Is the Court of Arches a government institution? For that matter the various Beth Din or any international court could not be described as a "government" institution. Looks wrong to me. Comments? Francis Davey ( talk) 11:13, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Me's still busy [not really, :-)], back soon :-) VivekM ( talk) 03:52, 25 June 2009 (UTC) today november 9 is my birthday and i am so proud of my self beacouse i am growing up and i a getting more meture i think
This article has an audience. The article, in various places, gives examples in good faith that would be familiar to readers and aids comprehension of the concepts...but only if you are from the US, the UK, or France. Someone else had already requested globalization, and I decided to specify the template after reading over the article. -- Mr. Guye ( talk) 22:56, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
I am in agreeance with several posters regarding this particular article. As noted above, Civil Law is a variant of Roman Law and was not conceptualized by the French. This portion of the article needs some fleshing out and restructuring. Mmcasse ( talk) 00:52, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus, leaning towards not moved. Primary topic has two criteria and it has been shown in the discussion that the law court meets the usage criterion. The long-term significance criterion is a lot more subjective and reasonable arguments have been made from both sides. Regardless, with the head count roughly split, one of two criteria favouring the status quo, and the other criterion up for debate, there can't be considered a consensus to move and, if anything, there could arguably be a consensus against moving.
The discussion of Court (royal) → Royal court got lost in the wash a bit. I'd recommend starting a separate RM for it that won't get muddied with primary topic concerns. Jenks24 ( talk) 20:53, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
– From research, what I am seeing is that it looks as though the subject currently at the ambiguous title Court and the subject at Court (royal) are both as significant as each other historically. Also, the current primary topic only averages about 2x the amount of page views than Court (royal) does. For this reason, the disambiguation page should probably be moved to the ambiguous title so that readers can try to figure out which article they are trying to locate. Steel1943 ( talk) 02:07, 16 August 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 ( talk) 11:48, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
"[a] topic is primary for a term, with respect to usage, if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term"(emphasis in original)).
"the topic that is primary with respect to usage"? I just provided four metrics that indicate it is
"highly likely""court of law" is
"the topic sought when a reader searches for"the term "court." The evidence listed in my previous post is both relevant and informative (incidentally, the word " valid" is a term that is used to describe arguments, not evidence). Your argument goes something like this: "there are high readership totals for both court and court (royal), therefore ambiguity must exist." This argument is nether valid nor sound; the evidence simply does not support your conclusion. There could be many reasons why there are high readership totals. For example, there may be a disproportionately large number of readers interested in medieval history, or there may be less interest in learning about courts of law. That does not mean, however, that "court of law" is not
"the topic that is primary with respect to usage"in the English language. -- Notecardforfree ( talk) 17:24, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
"Usage in English reliable sources demonstrated with Google web, news, scholar, or book searches", which I included in my previous comment. As I explained in my previous remarks, an article may be "more sought" (and therefore have more page views) for all kinds of reasons. One reason is that Wikipedia readers are likely not a representative sample of the English speaking population. It might also be the case that the topic of royal courts is more interesting to the average reader than a court of law, and thus attracts a disproportionately large number of readers relative to the article about "courts of law." Therefore, readership totals may not be the best metric for determining the primary use of the term in the English language. I would be very curious to see some objective evidence of "long term significance" with regard to how the term "court" has been used, but I have not seen any such evidence. In any case, it doesn't look like there is consensus here to change the status quo. -- Notecardforfree ( talk) 17:50, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
"neither 'court of law nor 'royal court' are commonly recognizable"is a straw man. You admit that
"if one topic surpasses all the others, grant it WP:PRIMARYTOPIC status". This is precisely what we have shown with our data above. I would love to see some data or facts to support your position, but so far you have provided none (aside from your spurious conclusions about page view statistics). Please try to observe WP:CIVIL, respond to the merits of our arguments, and do not resort to ad hominem attacks. Thanks, -- Notecardforfree ( talk) 16:22, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
"highly likely""court of law" is
"the topic sought when a reader searches for"the term "court" (quoting from WP:PRIMARYTOPIC). In earlier discussions, Hut 8.5 demonstrated how page views have been misinterpreted, and I also explained above that page views are likely not a reliable indicator of the primary use of the term in the English language. Again, please direct your comments to the merits of these arguments and keep in mind that WP:NPA states that is is
"never acceptable"to use
"someone's affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views". Best, -- Notecardforfree ( talk) 16:09, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
...may.... (Amazing how that word was overlooked which essentially set the tone for my entire comment.) Steel1943 ( talk) 16:15, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
It seems Asian, African, Eastern European, and South Asian Island cultures seem to have been excluded from discussion in this article. You can discuss edits in replies to this post. --- 73.225.242.40 ( talk) 23:42, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
No, I doubt that they have been "excluded". Wikipedia works on the basis of volunteer editors. It is more likely that simply no editor has yet contributed information about courts in Asia, Africa, etc. Inclusion of material about courts in the West, for example, does not mean that material on courts in Asia has been "excluded." All Wikipedia articles are works in progress. If and when some editor contributes material on courts in Asia, Africa, etc., then that material can be considered. Famspear ( talk) 15:08, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
Moreover, a chronology of the rising of courts worldwide would improve this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.118.227.221 ( talk) 17:45, 2 January 2021 (UTC)