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By the time Army Group Courland surrendered on 7 May 1945, it was the only substantial German formation left intact.
On the 7th it was not the only substantial German formation left intact. There was the German garrison in Norway and Army Group Centre.
It seem that the date of surrender of the Pocket could be considered one of several dates according to this article. But I have not read that the surrender was considered to be on the 7th. For example Bevoor (Berlin: the downfall 1945 p.420) writes "Despite Jodl's signature in Rheims Schoerner's army group.... and neither General von Saucken nor the huge force still trapped in Courland had surrendered."
So what is the source that says that they surrendered on the 7th ? -- Philip Baird Shearer 14:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have origin/source information for color photo Kurlandfront.jpg?
Thank you! GintsN 23:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
The plan is to expand the Baltic operation article because it actually encompassed four distinct Soviet operations within itself, the:
The Courland pocket was not a Soviet operation, but rather the German name for the entrapment of the forces in the area as a result of the Memel offensive, and its continuation by the blockading Red Army. In the Soviet military history the operation is called just that, the "blockade of the Courland group of forces", which included land and sea blockade activities.-- mrg3105 mrg3105 00:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Before getting into an edit conflict, please tell me what you think the purpose for the formation of the blockade was-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 04:48, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
From the history of the article
-- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 18:02, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
As for the comment in the history about other articles, there are lots of military articles were the other name is either moved to a footnote or a separate section. There is no need to have a wider debate about it. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 20:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
What is the point of putting them in the lead? They add nothing to the article and just clutter the lead. If they are to be present at all they should be in a footnote. That is one of the uses of footnotes! If the English is a translation of some phrase or other from a none Latin alphabet there is sometimes an advantage. But in this case the name is notable in English without the need for these names. It is only common style when editors who write the other languages try to insist on it. User:Xil what do you think is the advantage to having names in foreign languages in the lead? -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 20:00, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
International Journal (1946) p.146, "In January 1945, forty German divisions were encircled by the Russians in the "Courland pocket" and cut off."-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 01:50, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
And so it goes to this day...all a French Canadian plot! ;o)-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 01:56, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I would have been surprised if the British had not had their own name for the peninsular for much longer than post World War II. When it comes to things that ships can run into the British as a long standing maritime power has tend to have a name them. I did a quick Google books for the term and on the first page it returns John Pinkerton (1809) - Voyages and travels - Page 715 and on the second page is a book by Karl Johann von Blomberg (1701) Northern Seven Years' War, 1563-1570 - page 161. At that point I gave up as the term Courland has been in use from at least 1701. Whether or not it is originally a French term I do not know but whatever its origin, use for over 300 years makes it an English word. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 19:20, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
There is a persistent ignorance of HOW the casualty figures are derived.
Casualty figures used to be know as "returns", i.e. the unit commanders would count the members of the unit that returned to camp, and submit a report on the missing names.
As armies became larger and combat more complex this became increasingly difficult.
For example for Commonwealth troops alone in Europe the statistic is that there are 211,970 unidentified burials, (187,843 from the First World War and 24,127 from the Second World War), from a total Commonwealth burials of 1,147,216.
This means that during the Second World War, Commonwealth troops operating in a relatively small area for a relatively short time (6 weeks in N. France and 10 months in N.France, Belgium, Netherlands and Germany), had lost, and were later unable to identify 24,000 personnel!
The Soviet Second World War deaths were (rounded up) to 10,700,000. This means all the confirmed dead, as well as the confirmed but unidentified dead and missing in action.
So you get some perspective here, in December 2007 there were only 2,270,700 people counted in Latvia. This means that over four Latvias-full of people died.
It is absolutely impossible to account for all casualties when conflicts are waged on this scale.
Besides this, ALL records of ALL participants are in error. This is simply because the only way to access casualties is to actually count them. Since both sides spent time retreating and advancing, BOTH sides had difficulty accounting for casualties.
Why are Soviet figures more reliable. While the Red Army spent time retreating in 1941, for much of the rest of the war it was advancing. This allowed it to assess battlefield intelligence. Besides that, the Red Army captured much of the German records on the 1941 and later periods of the war, so it had the benefit of both side's records.
The Soviet casualty accounting went through several phases:
Above all it is important to understand that at no time did the Soviet or Russian military historians INVENTED figures, but they did on occasion chose to "play" with figures using available records.
GERMAN AUTHORS NEVER WENT THROUGH THIS HISTORIOGRAPHIC EVOLUTION! GERMAN AUTHORS NEVER HAD ACCESS TO THE SAME QUANTITY AND QUALITY OF ARCHIVAL MATERIAL GERMAN AUTHORS HAVE NEVER BEEN SUBJECTED TO CRITICAL ANALYSIS DUE TO THE PRESUMPTION OF THEIR CORRECTNESS
Not only that, but it is important to understand that casualties are not incurred in a linear progression. Every operation has a casualty high phase of the initial attack. After that either there is a breakthrough, and pursuit, or there is not. The usual Soviet operational or strategic operation timetable allocated 3-6 days for the breakthrough depending on scale, and as long as a month for the completion of operations. This means that often 80% of the casualties would be incurred in the first 10-20% of the duration of the operation. Given the actual operation to blockade German troops in Courland lasted a few days, your suggestion of a 300,000 dead from a force of 450,000 is simply nonsensical since no force could sustain such a rate of casualties! The first time you wrote this I knew you had it all wrong and when you posted that timetable from the German site Kurland-kessel, I knew I was right. If you divide the total of that list over the 6 months, and divide the casualties over the number of operations, you will get 50,000 casualties average per operation, or a rate of about 11% per operation. Krivosheev gives about 7% for the Courland operation. In fact by far the heaviest casualties were incurred by the Red Army in preventing the first attempt to open the coastal communications by the AG Nord before someone in Berlin suggested evacuation by sea with the idea that the renamed AG Courland would preserve its fighting poser to fight in Germany. At a guess the casualty progression was something like 16%, 13%, 12%, 10%, 8%, 7% for the operations you listed, TOTALING 300,000. Creative accounting is something I have seen a lot of in history, and at work, so it won't wash with me. So far as I'm concerned all the casualty figures in all the articles that are without reliable referenced source can be deleted as OR because looking at a few I can see that they are just a figment of someone's imagination who has no idea about how they are incurred, and recorded.-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 14:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Just wondering how someone can write a book in 1945 claiming to be inside Dönitz's head. Just curious for the basis/records for this. Dönitz was certainly holding out for evacuation to Germany, that doesn't mean U-boats. — PētersV ( talk) 02:41, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
You will note that I've created a section on the historic representation of the battle, or series of battles, and the intent of the Soviet command. I've added a reference to the casualty figures of Krivosheev, which support the Soviet analysis. The figures from German military sources are there also, with space for their sources to be identified. This would seem the most equitable solution. Esdrasbarnevelt ( talk) 10:44, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
As none of the editors proposing the 'Latvian' historiography seem to have provided references for their assertions, as yet, I've had a look for them.
At least part of the source for the claim of six major 'defensive' battles would seem to be A.Silgailis, Latviešu Leģions (Imanta, Copenhagen, 1964) (p.185, 190); referenced here. No idea as to the quality or impartiality of this source, but I would point out that Artur Silgailis was an officer in the Latvian Legion himself, which may cast doubt on his impartiality. I don't know where his figures came from originally, or if there is a German account that also mentions the six battles. Esdrasbarnevelt ( talk) 15:07, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The 1500s were a time of great changes for the inhabitants of Latvia, notable for the reformation and the collapse of the Livonian state. After the Livonian War (1558–1583) today's Latvian territory came under Polish-Lithuanian rule. The Lutheran faith was accepted in Kurzeme, Zemgale and Vidzeme, but the Roman Catholic faith maintained its dominance in Latgale and continues to do so today. citation needed
The seventeenth and early eighteenth centuries saw a struggle between Poland, Sweden and Russia for supremacy in the eastern Baltic. Most of Polish Livonia, including Vidzeme, came under Swedish rule with the Truce of Altmark in 1629. Under the Swedish rule, serfdom was eased and a network of schools was established for the peasantry.
The Treaty of Nystad ending the Great Northern War in 1721 gave Vidzeme to Russia (it became part of the Riga Governorate). The Latgale region remained part of Poland as Inflanty until 1772, when it was joined to Russia. The Duchy of Courland became a Russian province (the Courland Governorate) in 1795, bringing all of what is now Latvia into Imperial Russia.
the Latvian 19th Division excelled in a heroic struggle to defend this last piece of Latvia, waiting in vain for assistance from the Western Allies. Ironically, a unit of the Latvian 15th Division in Germany, while trying to reach the American army so that it could surrender, wound up unwillingly in the defence of Hitler’s Bunker in Berlin in the last days of the war.
Among the last defenders of Hitler's Reich Chancellery and Himmler's State Security Headquarters in Berlin were eighty Latvian soldiers, from the Fifteenth Battalion of the Fifteenth Latvian Legion(see page). The last commander of this battalion, Lieutenant Neilands, would act as interpreter for the talks on German surrender between the commander of Berlin , General Krebs, and the Soviets. Yet another Latvian, the Soviet Colonel General Nikolajs Bersarin, who's troops fought the Latvians in Berlin, would become the first commander of Russian-occupied Berlin until his death in 1946.
For the Nineteenth Division Kurland was truly the last stand. They took part in six major battles between October 12, 1944, and April 3, 1945. Together with the German army units they on the whole held the front line, keeping the Bolsheviks out of Kurland, until May 8, 1945, when Germany capitulated. These soldiers remained undefeated until the final moments of the war, im Felde unbesiegt(italics in original), as the Germans say. In one of the last battles, Captain Miervaldis Adamsons' company in a single 24-hour period repelled seven attacks by the Russians, and after the battle the bodies of 400 fallen Soviet soldiers could be counted in front of the Latvians' unconquered positions.
The author does not differentiate a skirmish from a strategic operation, calling them all "battles"! So, if each company in a 24-hour period killed 400 Soviet soldiers during seven attacks, then how many Soviet soldiers were killed by companies of 30 divisions during 6 months? We don't know because Gordon does not provide a reference except...
Soviet war historians have also written about the stubborn resistance put up by the defenders of Fortress Kurland, especially by the Latvians. Using these Soviet sources(my italics), Gershon Shapiro, a veteran of the Soviet-German war who emigrated to Israel, writes in his document collection Jews -- Heroes of the Soviet Union (in Russian, Tel Aviv 1982, pp. 359-360) that the Soviet High Command asked the commanders of the First and Second Baltic Fronts to take forceful action in Kurland, in order to drive the enemy from the northern sector of the Baltic Sea and free their units for more important positions on the Soviet-German front. The first attempt occurred on October 16, 1944, but was stopped in the area around Tukums. The next Soviet offensive took place on October 27, but met with strong resistance from the outset and did not result in any gains. November 20 saw another offensive, but the Germans and Latvians stabilized their defensive line, utilizing favorable geographic features. Equally unsuccessful were the final attempts of the First and Second Baltic Front Armies to liquidate the German Army Group "Kurland" in December of 1944 and February and April of 1945.
Soviet documents show that Stalin threw division after division into the Kurland inferno, disregarding the appallingly high losses. According to German estimates, the Soviet army lost 320,000 soldiers -- including those fallen, wounded, and taken prisoner -- and 2388 tanks, 659 planes, 900 cannons, and 1440 machine-guns.
sources on Jews who were awarded the medal of Hero of the Soviet Union (some of which had previously appeared in “quasi-legal” publications in the Soviet Union). From many standpoints these articles hardly differ from the style of writing common in the Soviet Union. The book discusses the Jews who distinguished themselves in battle, but the author is not always successful in capturing the element of Jewish warfare, even when intimations to that effect could be perceived in the Soviet publications on which he based himself."[yad-vashem.org.il/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%206218.pdf ]
You're going to make me read your immense diatribe, obviously. Apologies I'm up to my eyeballs in late night and weekend work for the next week or so. I did just check again, and your ref for 30,000 or so lost by the Soviets is only for February - May. What happened to the prior fall and winter? — PētersV ( talk) 01:29, 16 April 2008 (UTC) (forgot to sign)
I've had a chance to peruse the recently-published Die Ostfront 1943/44: Der Krieg im Osten und an den Nebenfronten, Karl-Heinz Frieser et al. (München: Deutsche Verlags-Anstalt, 2007; xvi, 1319 p.; ISBN 9783421062352), which is vol. 8 of the series Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg published in cooperation with Germany's Militärgeschichtliche Forschungsamt (MGFA). DRZW is in many ways the standard work of German military history on WWII, at least from the prespective of current German historical scholarship. For the record, it counts six (6) Kurlandschlachten. And it doesn't rely on Freivalds as a source. As for Lumans being necessarily included under the heading "Latvian historiography", the guy's been raised, educated, and employed as a history professor at a university all in the USA; furthermore, as far as I know, he's never published anything scholarly in Latvian, or in Latvia. Shouldn't that make his categorisation as "Latvian" somewhat problematic? By such logic, Michael Ignatieff would be a Russian scholar... — Zalktis ( talk) 19:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
P.S. Sorry for the revert, but please do any commentary on the order of battle and any purpose on the part of any side as part of historiography. Lat. encyclopedia states clearly that Soviet initiated attack starting 1st battle on October 15, attacking at approximately 10:00am following an intensive artillery barrage (by the Soviets). — PētersV ( talk) 03:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
P.P.S. Obviously, there were major evacuations. However, those do need to be discussed separately not necessarily in conjunction with the order of battle. Our sources would also appear to differ on how successful the Soviet bombardment of ships was. If Soviet sources have any specific claims of numbers sunk and when, that would be of interest. — PētersV ( talk) 03:33, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
P.P.S. Please fix your Dunnigan citation. Book? — PētersV ( talk) 03:43, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Looking at the chronology, it seems clear that the first 'major battle' was in fact the offensive against Riga, the second part of the Baltic Offensive (the first being the Memel Offensive Operation, which first cut off AGN). This was certainly a major offensive, but as Schoerner evacuated Riga and the Soviet thrust was entirely successful (see Mitcham, German Defeat in the East, p.145), I'm not sure it can be construed as a failed attempt to take the Courland pocket - more an entirely successful attempt to attack towards Riga Esdrasbarnevelt ( talk) 22:14, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I assume the cryptic reference "p.171, Dunnigan" refers to something by wargames designer(!) Jim Dunnigan, most likely the edited collection The Russian Front: Germany's War in the East, 1941-45 (first ed., as War in the East, New York: Simulations Publications, 1977; new UK ed. London: Arms and Armour Press, 1978). However, it is not possible to determine which edition (UK or US, etc.) of the book is being cited. As requested above by Pēters on 16 April, please provide a proper citation, ideally also giving the article from the collection being quoted. An incomplete reference is almost more useless than no reference at all. There seems to be a lot of scrutiny of so-called "Latvian" or "German" sources, but what is the quality of the scholarship being quoted elsewhere in the article? No-one will ever be able to judge, if the bibliographic details remain hidden from us. — Zalktis ( talk) 14:45, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Could someone provide page numbers for references c,d,e and f to this book? Alæxis ¿question? 09:36, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Since we've had another round of eliminating McAteer's book despite its use in plenty of other articles on Wikipedia, I suggest editors who try to paint this into a Russia says Latvians say spat (including vandalizing section titles) give me a week or so to replace the deleted citations with other sources. VєсrumЬа ► TALK 19:06, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
I think this article should mention the Panther Line.
My hunch (and, no, I don't have the sources to back it up) is that the Courland Pocket held out so long because they were falling back from a series of defensive lines (unlike the rest of the Germany military): first, the lines used in the siege of Leningrad, and then the Panther Line of 1943. What's unique about the Baltic is that it was on the frontline, broadly speaking, throughout the whole of the war on the Eastern Front.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 08:11, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
On 5 September 2013 somebody has deleted large and essential parts of the article. Why? This should not be allowed. I hope Wikipedia will restore the page — Preceding
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Citations need to be added where the Citation needed parts of the article are so this can be promoted to a B-class article for the Military History project. I will eventually get books on the Courland pocket and so could be able to solve this problem eventually. Arthurcurrie ( talk) 22:04, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
Wasn't there a mention in this article of the intent on the part of at least some of Army Group Courland to try to form a freikorps, or a freikorp, whichever is correct? I remember such a thing from somewhere. SlyGuyFox ( talk) 18:49, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
The historiography section looks like an attempt to describe both the "Russian POV" and the "Western POV", but in reality these don't appear so different, particularly because the "western" sources include quotations from Stalin! FOARP ( talk) 08:10, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
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By the time Army Group Courland surrendered on 7 May 1945, it was the only substantial German formation left intact.
On the 7th it was not the only substantial German formation left intact. There was the German garrison in Norway and Army Group Centre.
It seem that the date of surrender of the Pocket could be considered one of several dates according to this article. But I have not read that the surrender was considered to be on the 7th. For example Bevoor (Berlin: the downfall 1945 p.420) writes "Despite Jodl's signature in Rheims Schoerner's army group.... and neither General von Saucken nor the huge force still trapped in Courland had surrendered."
So what is the source that says that they surrendered on the 7th ? -- Philip Baird Shearer 14:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have origin/source information for color photo Kurlandfront.jpg?
Thank you! GintsN 23:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
The plan is to expand the Baltic operation article because it actually encompassed four distinct Soviet operations within itself, the:
The Courland pocket was not a Soviet operation, but rather the German name for the entrapment of the forces in the area as a result of the Memel offensive, and its continuation by the blockading Red Army. In the Soviet military history the operation is called just that, the "blockade of the Courland group of forces", which included land and sea blockade activities.-- mrg3105 mrg3105 00:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Before getting into an edit conflict, please tell me what you think the purpose for the formation of the blockade was-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 04:48, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
From the history of the article
-- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 18:02, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
As for the comment in the history about other articles, there are lots of military articles were the other name is either moved to a footnote or a separate section. There is no need to have a wider debate about it. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 20:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
What is the point of putting them in the lead? They add nothing to the article and just clutter the lead. If they are to be present at all they should be in a footnote. That is one of the uses of footnotes! If the English is a translation of some phrase or other from a none Latin alphabet there is sometimes an advantage. But in this case the name is notable in English without the need for these names. It is only common style when editors who write the other languages try to insist on it. User:Xil what do you think is the advantage to having names in foreign languages in the lead? -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 20:00, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
International Journal (1946) p.146, "In January 1945, forty German divisions were encircled by the Russians in the "Courland pocket" and cut off."-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 01:50, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
And so it goes to this day...all a French Canadian plot! ;o)-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 01:56, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I would have been surprised if the British had not had their own name for the peninsular for much longer than post World War II. When it comes to things that ships can run into the British as a long standing maritime power has tend to have a name them. I did a quick Google books for the term and on the first page it returns John Pinkerton (1809) - Voyages and travels - Page 715 and on the second page is a book by Karl Johann von Blomberg (1701) Northern Seven Years' War, 1563-1570 - page 161. At that point I gave up as the term Courland has been in use from at least 1701. Whether or not it is originally a French term I do not know but whatever its origin, use for over 300 years makes it an English word. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 19:20, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
There is a persistent ignorance of HOW the casualty figures are derived.
Casualty figures used to be know as "returns", i.e. the unit commanders would count the members of the unit that returned to camp, and submit a report on the missing names.
As armies became larger and combat more complex this became increasingly difficult.
For example for Commonwealth troops alone in Europe the statistic is that there are 211,970 unidentified burials, (187,843 from the First World War and 24,127 from the Second World War), from a total Commonwealth burials of 1,147,216.
This means that during the Second World War, Commonwealth troops operating in a relatively small area for a relatively short time (6 weeks in N. France and 10 months in N.France, Belgium, Netherlands and Germany), had lost, and were later unable to identify 24,000 personnel!
The Soviet Second World War deaths were (rounded up) to 10,700,000. This means all the confirmed dead, as well as the confirmed but unidentified dead and missing in action.
So you get some perspective here, in December 2007 there were only 2,270,700 people counted in Latvia. This means that over four Latvias-full of people died.
It is absolutely impossible to account for all casualties when conflicts are waged on this scale.
Besides this, ALL records of ALL participants are in error. This is simply because the only way to access casualties is to actually count them. Since both sides spent time retreating and advancing, BOTH sides had difficulty accounting for casualties.
Why are Soviet figures more reliable. While the Red Army spent time retreating in 1941, for much of the rest of the war it was advancing. This allowed it to assess battlefield intelligence. Besides that, the Red Army captured much of the German records on the 1941 and later periods of the war, so it had the benefit of both side's records.
The Soviet casualty accounting went through several phases:
Above all it is important to understand that at no time did the Soviet or Russian military historians INVENTED figures, but they did on occasion chose to "play" with figures using available records.
GERMAN AUTHORS NEVER WENT THROUGH THIS HISTORIOGRAPHIC EVOLUTION! GERMAN AUTHORS NEVER HAD ACCESS TO THE SAME QUANTITY AND QUALITY OF ARCHIVAL MATERIAL GERMAN AUTHORS HAVE NEVER BEEN SUBJECTED TO CRITICAL ANALYSIS DUE TO THE PRESUMPTION OF THEIR CORRECTNESS
Not only that, but it is important to understand that casualties are not incurred in a linear progression. Every operation has a casualty high phase of the initial attack. After that either there is a breakthrough, and pursuit, or there is not. The usual Soviet operational or strategic operation timetable allocated 3-6 days for the breakthrough depending on scale, and as long as a month for the completion of operations. This means that often 80% of the casualties would be incurred in the first 10-20% of the duration of the operation. Given the actual operation to blockade German troops in Courland lasted a few days, your suggestion of a 300,000 dead from a force of 450,000 is simply nonsensical since no force could sustain such a rate of casualties! The first time you wrote this I knew you had it all wrong and when you posted that timetable from the German site Kurland-kessel, I knew I was right. If you divide the total of that list over the 6 months, and divide the casualties over the number of operations, you will get 50,000 casualties average per operation, or a rate of about 11% per operation. Krivosheev gives about 7% for the Courland operation. In fact by far the heaviest casualties were incurred by the Red Army in preventing the first attempt to open the coastal communications by the AG Nord before someone in Berlin suggested evacuation by sea with the idea that the renamed AG Courland would preserve its fighting poser to fight in Germany. At a guess the casualty progression was something like 16%, 13%, 12%, 10%, 8%, 7% for the operations you listed, TOTALING 300,000. Creative accounting is something I have seen a lot of in history, and at work, so it won't wash with me. So far as I'm concerned all the casualty figures in all the articles that are without reliable referenced source can be deleted as OR because looking at a few I can see that they are just a figment of someone's imagination who has no idea about how they are incurred, and recorded.-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 14:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Just wondering how someone can write a book in 1945 claiming to be inside Dönitz's head. Just curious for the basis/records for this. Dönitz was certainly holding out for evacuation to Germany, that doesn't mean U-boats. — PētersV ( talk) 02:41, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
You will note that I've created a section on the historic representation of the battle, or series of battles, and the intent of the Soviet command. I've added a reference to the casualty figures of Krivosheev, which support the Soviet analysis. The figures from German military sources are there also, with space for their sources to be identified. This would seem the most equitable solution. Esdrasbarnevelt ( talk) 10:44, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
As none of the editors proposing the 'Latvian' historiography seem to have provided references for their assertions, as yet, I've had a look for them.
At least part of the source for the claim of six major 'defensive' battles would seem to be A.Silgailis, Latviešu Leģions (Imanta, Copenhagen, 1964) (p.185, 190); referenced here. No idea as to the quality or impartiality of this source, but I would point out that Artur Silgailis was an officer in the Latvian Legion himself, which may cast doubt on his impartiality. I don't know where his figures came from originally, or if there is a German account that also mentions the six battles. Esdrasbarnevelt ( talk) 15:07, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The 1500s were a time of great changes for the inhabitants of Latvia, notable for the reformation and the collapse of the Livonian state. After the Livonian War (1558–1583) today's Latvian territory came under Polish-Lithuanian rule. The Lutheran faith was accepted in Kurzeme, Zemgale and Vidzeme, but the Roman Catholic faith maintained its dominance in Latgale and continues to do so today. citation needed
The seventeenth and early eighteenth centuries saw a struggle between Poland, Sweden and Russia for supremacy in the eastern Baltic. Most of Polish Livonia, including Vidzeme, came under Swedish rule with the Truce of Altmark in 1629. Under the Swedish rule, serfdom was eased and a network of schools was established for the peasantry.
The Treaty of Nystad ending the Great Northern War in 1721 gave Vidzeme to Russia (it became part of the Riga Governorate). The Latgale region remained part of Poland as Inflanty until 1772, when it was joined to Russia. The Duchy of Courland became a Russian province (the Courland Governorate) in 1795, bringing all of what is now Latvia into Imperial Russia.
the Latvian 19th Division excelled in a heroic struggle to defend this last piece of Latvia, waiting in vain for assistance from the Western Allies. Ironically, a unit of the Latvian 15th Division in Germany, while trying to reach the American army so that it could surrender, wound up unwillingly in the defence of Hitler’s Bunker in Berlin in the last days of the war.
Among the last defenders of Hitler's Reich Chancellery and Himmler's State Security Headquarters in Berlin were eighty Latvian soldiers, from the Fifteenth Battalion of the Fifteenth Latvian Legion(see page). The last commander of this battalion, Lieutenant Neilands, would act as interpreter for the talks on German surrender between the commander of Berlin , General Krebs, and the Soviets. Yet another Latvian, the Soviet Colonel General Nikolajs Bersarin, who's troops fought the Latvians in Berlin, would become the first commander of Russian-occupied Berlin until his death in 1946.
For the Nineteenth Division Kurland was truly the last stand. They took part in six major battles between October 12, 1944, and April 3, 1945. Together with the German army units they on the whole held the front line, keeping the Bolsheviks out of Kurland, until May 8, 1945, when Germany capitulated. These soldiers remained undefeated until the final moments of the war, im Felde unbesiegt(italics in original), as the Germans say. In one of the last battles, Captain Miervaldis Adamsons' company in a single 24-hour period repelled seven attacks by the Russians, and after the battle the bodies of 400 fallen Soviet soldiers could be counted in front of the Latvians' unconquered positions.
The author does not differentiate a skirmish from a strategic operation, calling them all "battles"! So, if each company in a 24-hour period killed 400 Soviet soldiers during seven attacks, then how many Soviet soldiers were killed by companies of 30 divisions during 6 months? We don't know because Gordon does not provide a reference except...
Soviet war historians have also written about the stubborn resistance put up by the defenders of Fortress Kurland, especially by the Latvians. Using these Soviet sources(my italics), Gershon Shapiro, a veteran of the Soviet-German war who emigrated to Israel, writes in his document collection Jews -- Heroes of the Soviet Union (in Russian, Tel Aviv 1982, pp. 359-360) that the Soviet High Command asked the commanders of the First and Second Baltic Fronts to take forceful action in Kurland, in order to drive the enemy from the northern sector of the Baltic Sea and free their units for more important positions on the Soviet-German front. The first attempt occurred on October 16, 1944, but was stopped in the area around Tukums. The next Soviet offensive took place on October 27, but met with strong resistance from the outset and did not result in any gains. November 20 saw another offensive, but the Germans and Latvians stabilized their defensive line, utilizing favorable geographic features. Equally unsuccessful were the final attempts of the First and Second Baltic Front Armies to liquidate the German Army Group "Kurland" in December of 1944 and February and April of 1945.
Soviet documents show that Stalin threw division after division into the Kurland inferno, disregarding the appallingly high losses. According to German estimates, the Soviet army lost 320,000 soldiers -- including those fallen, wounded, and taken prisoner -- and 2388 tanks, 659 planes, 900 cannons, and 1440 machine-guns.
sources on Jews who were awarded the medal of Hero of the Soviet Union (some of which had previously appeared in “quasi-legal” publications in the Soviet Union). From many standpoints these articles hardly differ from the style of writing common in the Soviet Union. The book discusses the Jews who distinguished themselves in battle, but the author is not always successful in capturing the element of Jewish warfare, even when intimations to that effect could be perceived in the Soviet publications on which he based himself."[yad-vashem.org.il/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%206218.pdf ]
You're going to make me read your immense diatribe, obviously. Apologies I'm up to my eyeballs in late night and weekend work for the next week or so. I did just check again, and your ref for 30,000 or so lost by the Soviets is only for February - May. What happened to the prior fall and winter? — PētersV ( talk) 01:29, 16 April 2008 (UTC) (forgot to sign)
I've had a chance to peruse the recently-published Die Ostfront 1943/44: Der Krieg im Osten und an den Nebenfronten, Karl-Heinz Frieser et al. (München: Deutsche Verlags-Anstalt, 2007; xvi, 1319 p.; ISBN 9783421062352), which is vol. 8 of the series Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg published in cooperation with Germany's Militärgeschichtliche Forschungsamt (MGFA). DRZW is in many ways the standard work of German military history on WWII, at least from the prespective of current German historical scholarship. For the record, it counts six (6) Kurlandschlachten. And it doesn't rely on Freivalds as a source. As for Lumans being necessarily included under the heading "Latvian historiography", the guy's been raised, educated, and employed as a history professor at a university all in the USA; furthermore, as far as I know, he's never published anything scholarly in Latvian, or in Latvia. Shouldn't that make his categorisation as "Latvian" somewhat problematic? By such logic, Michael Ignatieff would be a Russian scholar... — Zalktis ( talk) 19:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
P.S. Sorry for the revert, but please do any commentary on the order of battle and any purpose on the part of any side as part of historiography. Lat. encyclopedia states clearly that Soviet initiated attack starting 1st battle on October 15, attacking at approximately 10:00am following an intensive artillery barrage (by the Soviets). — PētersV ( talk) 03:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
P.P.S. Obviously, there were major evacuations. However, those do need to be discussed separately not necessarily in conjunction with the order of battle. Our sources would also appear to differ on how successful the Soviet bombardment of ships was. If Soviet sources have any specific claims of numbers sunk and when, that would be of interest. — PētersV ( talk) 03:33, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
P.P.S. Please fix your Dunnigan citation. Book? — PētersV ( talk) 03:43, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Looking at the chronology, it seems clear that the first 'major battle' was in fact the offensive against Riga, the second part of the Baltic Offensive (the first being the Memel Offensive Operation, which first cut off AGN). This was certainly a major offensive, but as Schoerner evacuated Riga and the Soviet thrust was entirely successful (see Mitcham, German Defeat in the East, p.145), I'm not sure it can be construed as a failed attempt to take the Courland pocket - more an entirely successful attempt to attack towards Riga Esdrasbarnevelt ( talk) 22:14, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I assume the cryptic reference "p.171, Dunnigan" refers to something by wargames designer(!) Jim Dunnigan, most likely the edited collection The Russian Front: Germany's War in the East, 1941-45 (first ed., as War in the East, New York: Simulations Publications, 1977; new UK ed. London: Arms and Armour Press, 1978). However, it is not possible to determine which edition (UK or US, etc.) of the book is being cited. As requested above by Pēters on 16 April, please provide a proper citation, ideally also giving the article from the collection being quoted. An incomplete reference is almost more useless than no reference at all. There seems to be a lot of scrutiny of so-called "Latvian" or "German" sources, but what is the quality of the scholarship being quoted elsewhere in the article? No-one will ever be able to judge, if the bibliographic details remain hidden from us. — Zalktis ( talk) 14:45, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Could someone provide page numbers for references c,d,e and f to this book? Alæxis ¿question? 09:36, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Since we've had another round of eliminating McAteer's book despite its use in plenty of other articles on Wikipedia, I suggest editors who try to paint this into a Russia says Latvians say spat (including vandalizing section titles) give me a week or so to replace the deleted citations with other sources. VєсrumЬа ► TALK 19:06, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
I think this article should mention the Panther Line.
My hunch (and, no, I don't have the sources to back it up) is that the Courland Pocket held out so long because they were falling back from a series of defensive lines (unlike the rest of the Germany military): first, the lines used in the siege of Leningrad, and then the Panther Line of 1943. What's unique about the Baltic is that it was on the frontline, broadly speaking, throughout the whole of the war on the Eastern Front.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 08:11, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
On 5 September 2013 somebody has deleted large and essential parts of the article. Why? This should not be allowed. I hope Wikipedia will restore the page — Preceding
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Preserving here by providing this link. My rationale was: "c/e; npov; unneeded section breaks; reducing uncited intricate detail unlikely to be available in secondary RS". -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 21:05, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
Citations need to be added where the Citation needed parts of the article are so this can be promoted to a B-class article for the Military History project. I will eventually get books on the Courland pocket and so could be able to solve this problem eventually. Arthurcurrie ( talk) 22:04, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
Wasn't there a mention in this article of the intent on the part of at least some of Army Group Courland to try to form a freikorps, or a freikorp, whichever is correct? I remember such a thing from somewhere. SlyGuyFox ( talk) 18:49, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
The historiography section looks like an attempt to describe both the "Russian POV" and the "Western POV", but in reality these don't appear so different, particularly because the "western" sources include quotations from Stalin! FOARP ( talk) 08:10, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
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