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There are two Raymond IVs in the list, even without numbering the suggested one. 121.44.82.81 06:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
The problem is two fold. First, the traditional numbering, particularly for Raymond IV, appears so broadly in the published literature that major confusion would occur were the Raymonds to be renumbered. Secondly, there is not uniform agreement on how many 'new' Raymonds there are (one or two) or whether they derive from Raymond Pons or instead from Raymond, Count of Rouergue. To help limit confusion, some authors seem to be removing the number from Raymond Pons (traditionally Raymond III), using only his byname to distinguish him, and then applying 'Raymond III' to his successor and (conveniently) choosing a reconstruction with only that one additional Raymond, allowing everything to come back into sinc. However, there really does seem to be two Raymonds between Raymond Pons and his traditional son William III, as shown. Agricolae 01:04, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Two issues: the dates need to be brought into harmony. Raymond (III or IV) can't have been count until 978 and also have been succeeded by Hugh in 961. There are two possibilities. We have to add at least one Raymond, but then there are two possibilities. First, that this new Raymond died in 961, and was followed by sons Hugh and Raymond, who died in 978, or alternatively, that the new Raymond lived to 978, and his sons Hugh and Raymond died during his lifetime, and a son born late in life to a new wife, William, succeeded him directly. Most scholarly reconstructions i have seen of him have William son of the younger of the two Raymonds. The 978 succession for the first new Raymond is only valid if he was the only new Raymond. (This is a problem with a summary page - it makes it hard to deal with conflicting reconstructions.)
The second issue is the numbers. Right up until two decades ago, Raymond III of Toulouse was unambiguously used by historians to refer to Raymond Pons, and he appears as such in all works prior to that date. His own Wiki page calls him Raymond III. Thus it is ambiguous to now refer to his son as Raymond III. The name of this son's page needs to name him in some manner that does not allow this confusion with Raymond Pons. We could use dates, as has been suggested for the younger new Raymond, but then that brings us back to the date issue. Agricolae 19:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
The map is futile - yellow colours too similar to be interpreted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.187.253.138 ( talk) 03:48, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
The provinciale romanum (a document that listed all bishoprics in the catholic church) listed Bourges and Bordeaux's provinces as "in ducatu aquitaniæ", Aush's as "in wasconia", and Narbon's as "in gothia". Following the creation of an ecclesiastical province for Toulouse by John XXII, some versions of the document insert it after Narbon in Gothia, but most versions instert it between Bourges and Bordeaux, in Aquitaine (thus making the aquitaine of the provinciale precisely match the old kingdom of aquitaine). Is this a sign of Toulouse having still been thought of as an historical part of aquitaine well into the 14th century? ΟυώρντΑρτ ( talk) ΟυώρντΑρτ ( talk) 21:36, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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| A member of the
Guild of Copy Editors,
Vanamonde93, reviewed a version of this article for copy editing on July 2015. However, a major copy edit was inappropriate at that time because of the issues specified below, or the other tags now found on this article. Once these issues have been addressed, and any related tags have been cleared, please tag the article once again for {{
copyedit}}. The Guild welcomes all editors with a good grasp of English. Visit our
project page if you are interested in joining! Please address the following issues as well as any other cleanup tags before re-tagging this article with copyedit: Large sections of the article are unreferenced, and very unclear in their meaning. It is not possible to clarify them without a source, and so the referencing issues need to be fixed before this can be submitted for copy-editing. |
There are two Raymond IVs in the list, even without numbering the suggested one. 121.44.82.81 06:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
The problem is two fold. First, the traditional numbering, particularly for Raymond IV, appears so broadly in the published literature that major confusion would occur were the Raymonds to be renumbered. Secondly, there is not uniform agreement on how many 'new' Raymonds there are (one or two) or whether they derive from Raymond Pons or instead from Raymond, Count of Rouergue. To help limit confusion, some authors seem to be removing the number from Raymond Pons (traditionally Raymond III), using only his byname to distinguish him, and then applying 'Raymond III' to his successor and (conveniently) choosing a reconstruction with only that one additional Raymond, allowing everything to come back into sinc. However, there really does seem to be two Raymonds between Raymond Pons and his traditional son William III, as shown. Agricolae 01:04, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Two issues: the dates need to be brought into harmony. Raymond (III or IV) can't have been count until 978 and also have been succeeded by Hugh in 961. There are two possibilities. We have to add at least one Raymond, but then there are two possibilities. First, that this new Raymond died in 961, and was followed by sons Hugh and Raymond, who died in 978, or alternatively, that the new Raymond lived to 978, and his sons Hugh and Raymond died during his lifetime, and a son born late in life to a new wife, William, succeeded him directly. Most scholarly reconstructions i have seen of him have William son of the younger of the two Raymonds. The 978 succession for the first new Raymond is only valid if he was the only new Raymond. (This is a problem with a summary page - it makes it hard to deal with conflicting reconstructions.)
The second issue is the numbers. Right up until two decades ago, Raymond III of Toulouse was unambiguously used by historians to refer to Raymond Pons, and he appears as such in all works prior to that date. His own Wiki page calls him Raymond III. Thus it is ambiguous to now refer to his son as Raymond III. The name of this son's page needs to name him in some manner that does not allow this confusion with Raymond Pons. We could use dates, as has been suggested for the younger new Raymond, but then that brings us back to the date issue. Agricolae 19:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
The map is futile - yellow colours too similar to be interpreted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.187.253.138 ( talk) 03:48, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
The provinciale romanum (a document that listed all bishoprics in the catholic church) listed Bourges and Bordeaux's provinces as "in ducatu aquitaniæ", Aush's as "in wasconia", and Narbon's as "in gothia". Following the creation of an ecclesiastical province for Toulouse by John XXII, some versions of the document insert it after Narbon in Gothia, but most versions instert it between Bourges and Bordeaux, in Aquitaine (thus making the aquitaine of the provinciale precisely match the old kingdom of aquitaine). Is this a sign of Toulouse having still been thought of as an historical part of aquitaine well into the 14th century? ΟυώρντΑρτ ( talk) ΟυώρντΑρτ ( talk) 21:36, 26 April 2023 (UTC)