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1. Although the County was a fee of the Holy Roman Empire, the functional lordships were principally subject to Angevin hegemony during this time: the Kings of England would spend one year in England and the next administering Flanders, and their control of the trade routes was a much more immediate influence than the Emperor in Aachen or Cologne, separated by the entire width of the Ardennes in between. The administration only returned to Germany after the Battle of Bouvines (1205).
2. The consequence was that although the local population and administration used Early Flemish (see Brabantse Yeesten, a 1444 chronology of the Duchy by the Town Clerk of Antwerp, whose family was from a village a couple of miles south of Brussels), the governance was in Mediaeval French/Latin.
3. "Leuven" is a modern anachronism encouraged by Flemish Nationalists as a matter of political pressure to improve their claim on what was for much of its life a French-speaking town (as demonstrated in the historical names of the older establishments listed on the Leuven page). This also shows a number of forms which would certainly have been pronounced similarly to the French Louvain: the Brabantse Yeesten itself uses the older Loven form. I therefore suggest that an NPOV would prefer the French form, with Leuven as a secondary index. Jel 11:55, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
What is the attribution for a separate County of Brussels? In 1000 the place was at best a few houses and a chapel by a bridge over the river Senne. Although local tradition suggests there may have been a small ducal keep erected nearby during the eleventh century, no trace of it in either documentation or archaeological digging has thus far been found. As there is, however, evidence of a castrum belonging to the Count's Chatelain, tentatively identified as founders of the de Montfort family, on the ridgeline of the plateau overlooking the river plain a mile to the south-east, just north of the fifteenth-century Ducal Aula Magna: the current thinking among the local specialists is that it would have been highly unusual to have had two keeps in such close proximity in such a small town, and there is consequently considerable doubt of the one in town.
By 1300, it had a population of only around 8000, despite having been the seat of the Duchy of Brabant for a hundred years. In point of fact, even the term Brussels is inaccurate prior to then, as the general term was an earlier form, Bruocsela. It is also quite clear that the County of Loven reached as far as the Dender and Schelde, leaving no room for an odd little County of No-where in between. I therefore think that "Count of Louvain and Brussels" simply covers a single county with two towns of note in it, rather than two counties, as is suggested here. Jel 11:55, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: all moved. Favonian ( talk) 14:55, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
– Per Article titles, Wikipedia prefers to use "the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources." While the spelling of the present-day city is Leuven in Flemish, and while that is also sometimes used in English, in this historical context a search of Google books and Google Scholar confirms that the exonym "Louvain" predominates in reliable sources: Google books gives these numbers: 2,480 for "Count of Louvain", 157 for "Count of Leuven". Google Scholar has 77 for "Count of Louvain" and 12 for "Count of Leuven". A good parallel can be drawn with the city of Aachen (or Aix-la-Chapelle) and the Treaties made there - we correctly have Treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle (1668) and Treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle (1748), because in the historical context those are the names used. (As it happens, per Google books and Google Scholar "Louvain" is also used much more than "Leuven", but I do not think that is the main issue here.) Moonraker ( talk) 07:07, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Moonraker ( talk) 07:07, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
The move is not desirable for scientific (historiographic) reasons. Witger ( talk) 07:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
The statistics mentioned here above seem to be presented misleadingly. I checked the number of hits on Google today. The variant "count of Leuven" gives 215,000 hits and the variant "count of Louvain" only 34,900. Kindly verify. Witger ( talk) 14:43, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was A close on procedural grounds. I was invited here via a heads up on my talk page by Morgengave the editor who opened this second requested move. As an administrator, I am closing this multiple request on two counts. The last request which was only closed on 7 March 2012, was phrased correctly: It is not the name of the town which is relevant, what is relevant is what the title is called in modern English language reliable sources (eg those published over the last quarter of a century or so). As was pointed out by Moonraker unsing WWW ghits is not acceptable as a survey device, as it returns unreliable sources as well as reliable ones. Ghit surveys should restrict themselves to scholar and books after say 1986 (the last 25 years) -- to avoid sampling free out of date Victorian publications which can distort Ghit surveys.
Secondly as a procedural issue. It is less than six months since the last request to move, no procedural irregularity (or even fresh evidence), had been presented. To reopen such requests is bordering on disruptive, because part of the reason for the WP:RM process, to to put these type of disputes to bed for a reasonable length of time, so people can concentrate on article content and other more constructive pastimes as it is unlikely that consensus will change so quickly (EG: as I close this the editors who have expressed an opinion in this new survey and who did so in the last survey have not changed their positions).
So to those who want to overturn the last requested moves, wait at least six months before putting in another request and make sure that when the request is put in there is convincing evidence presented to show that modern English language reliable sources use "Count of Leuven" rather than "Count of Louvain". If you disagree with my close of this irregular request then take it to WP:ANI. If another uninvolved administrator reverts my close then I will not seek to overturn that revert.-- PBS ( talk) 10:17, 15 April 2012 (UTC)}}
Requested multiple moves:
– In recent years, a trend is visible towards preferring Leuven as the English name for this Belgian city. This is also the case when discussing its historical counts. Google reveals this preference markedly (note that a part of the Louvain-usage stems from Wikipedia and its copy sites itself; hence, real usage of Louvain is even lower than the below numbers). Morgengave ( talk) 21:41, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
I know that Google is not the perfect measurer of contemporary usage, but it's a really good one; it's one of the best tools available. Seen the very strong differences between the two names, I believe that it's safe to assume that we have a real and clear preference among English speakers for "counts of Leuven". As Wikipedia aims to follow the contemporary common usage in English, I suggest that we move the pages as mentioned above. PS: The previous move from "counts of Leuven" to Louvain (done in March 2012) has been done without elaborately checking the current English usage. The arguments that these sites are influenced by Wikipedia itself do not hold ground (Wikipedia now uses "Louvain" and thus increases the count of "Louvain"-sites - still Leuven is much more popular). The argument that the usages of Leuven is somehow less reliable does not make sense, as it would imply that 5 out of the 6 English-language sites dealing with these counts would be wrong! Morgengave ( talk) 21:41, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
aristocracy "counts of Leuven": 66 hits
aristocracy "counts of Louvain": 93 hits
"Lambert II of Leuven": 79 hits
"Lambert II of Louvain": 100 hits
Lambert II of Leuven: about 1,310,000 hits
Lambert II of Louvain: about 692,000 hits
"counts of leuven were": 4 hits
"counts of louvain were": 2 hits
While I understand the procedural grounds for its closing, I do not think your primary argument is so strong that it trumps all of the others. I too disagree with the Ghit procedure, and I will concede that scholarly sources have a tendency to use Louvain. On the other hand, I think it is much more logical to use the same name for the city/county everywhere in the encyclopedia rather than haphazardly changing it for every topic where the field shows a slight preference one way or the other.
Further, the "consensus" which closed the first rm was based on misinformation; after the move was closed 4-2, one of the supporters of the move realized, based on facts, that he should have voted in the other direction, making it 3-3, and not a consensus at all. Especially given that more voices have emerged aware of the move, I think that rejecting the rm's reopening was not correct. - Oreo Priest talk 15:44, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
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1. Although the County was a fee of the Holy Roman Empire, the functional lordships were principally subject to Angevin hegemony during this time: the Kings of England would spend one year in England and the next administering Flanders, and their control of the trade routes was a much more immediate influence than the Emperor in Aachen or Cologne, separated by the entire width of the Ardennes in between. The administration only returned to Germany after the Battle of Bouvines (1205).
2. The consequence was that although the local population and administration used Early Flemish (see Brabantse Yeesten, a 1444 chronology of the Duchy by the Town Clerk of Antwerp, whose family was from a village a couple of miles south of Brussels), the governance was in Mediaeval French/Latin.
3. "Leuven" is a modern anachronism encouraged by Flemish Nationalists as a matter of political pressure to improve their claim on what was for much of its life a French-speaking town (as demonstrated in the historical names of the older establishments listed on the Leuven page). This also shows a number of forms which would certainly have been pronounced similarly to the French Louvain: the Brabantse Yeesten itself uses the older Loven form. I therefore suggest that an NPOV would prefer the French form, with Leuven as a secondary index. Jel 11:55, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
What is the attribution for a separate County of Brussels? In 1000 the place was at best a few houses and a chapel by a bridge over the river Senne. Although local tradition suggests there may have been a small ducal keep erected nearby during the eleventh century, no trace of it in either documentation or archaeological digging has thus far been found. As there is, however, evidence of a castrum belonging to the Count's Chatelain, tentatively identified as founders of the de Montfort family, on the ridgeline of the plateau overlooking the river plain a mile to the south-east, just north of the fifteenth-century Ducal Aula Magna: the current thinking among the local specialists is that it would have been highly unusual to have had two keeps in such close proximity in such a small town, and there is consequently considerable doubt of the one in town.
By 1300, it had a population of only around 8000, despite having been the seat of the Duchy of Brabant for a hundred years. In point of fact, even the term Brussels is inaccurate prior to then, as the general term was an earlier form, Bruocsela. It is also quite clear that the County of Loven reached as far as the Dender and Schelde, leaving no room for an odd little County of No-where in between. I therefore think that "Count of Louvain and Brussels" simply covers a single county with two towns of note in it, rather than two counties, as is suggested here. Jel 11:55, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: all moved. Favonian ( talk) 14:55, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
– Per Article titles, Wikipedia prefers to use "the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources." While the spelling of the present-day city is Leuven in Flemish, and while that is also sometimes used in English, in this historical context a search of Google books and Google Scholar confirms that the exonym "Louvain" predominates in reliable sources: Google books gives these numbers: 2,480 for "Count of Louvain", 157 for "Count of Leuven". Google Scholar has 77 for "Count of Louvain" and 12 for "Count of Leuven". A good parallel can be drawn with the city of Aachen (or Aix-la-Chapelle) and the Treaties made there - we correctly have Treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle (1668) and Treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle (1748), because in the historical context those are the names used. (As it happens, per Google books and Google Scholar "Louvain" is also used much more than "Leuven", but I do not think that is the main issue here.) Moonraker ( talk) 07:07, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Moonraker ( talk) 07:07, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
The move is not desirable for scientific (historiographic) reasons. Witger ( talk) 07:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
The statistics mentioned here above seem to be presented misleadingly. I checked the number of hits on Google today. The variant "count of Leuven" gives 215,000 hits and the variant "count of Louvain" only 34,900. Kindly verify. Witger ( talk) 14:43, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was A close on procedural grounds. I was invited here via a heads up on my talk page by Morgengave the editor who opened this second requested move. As an administrator, I am closing this multiple request on two counts. The last request which was only closed on 7 March 2012, was phrased correctly: It is not the name of the town which is relevant, what is relevant is what the title is called in modern English language reliable sources (eg those published over the last quarter of a century or so). As was pointed out by Moonraker unsing WWW ghits is not acceptable as a survey device, as it returns unreliable sources as well as reliable ones. Ghit surveys should restrict themselves to scholar and books after say 1986 (the last 25 years) -- to avoid sampling free out of date Victorian publications which can distort Ghit surveys.
Secondly as a procedural issue. It is less than six months since the last request to move, no procedural irregularity (or even fresh evidence), had been presented. To reopen such requests is bordering on disruptive, because part of the reason for the WP:RM process, to to put these type of disputes to bed for a reasonable length of time, so people can concentrate on article content and other more constructive pastimes as it is unlikely that consensus will change so quickly (EG: as I close this the editors who have expressed an opinion in this new survey and who did so in the last survey have not changed their positions).
So to those who want to overturn the last requested moves, wait at least six months before putting in another request and make sure that when the request is put in there is convincing evidence presented to show that modern English language reliable sources use "Count of Leuven" rather than "Count of Louvain". If you disagree with my close of this irregular request then take it to WP:ANI. If another uninvolved administrator reverts my close then I will not seek to overturn that revert.-- PBS ( talk) 10:17, 15 April 2012 (UTC)}}
Requested multiple moves:
– In recent years, a trend is visible towards preferring Leuven as the English name for this Belgian city. This is also the case when discussing its historical counts. Google reveals this preference markedly (note that a part of the Louvain-usage stems from Wikipedia and its copy sites itself; hence, real usage of Louvain is even lower than the below numbers). Morgengave ( talk) 21:41, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
I know that Google is not the perfect measurer of contemporary usage, but it's a really good one; it's one of the best tools available. Seen the very strong differences between the two names, I believe that it's safe to assume that we have a real and clear preference among English speakers for "counts of Leuven". As Wikipedia aims to follow the contemporary common usage in English, I suggest that we move the pages as mentioned above. PS: The previous move from "counts of Leuven" to Louvain (done in March 2012) has been done without elaborately checking the current English usage. The arguments that these sites are influenced by Wikipedia itself do not hold ground (Wikipedia now uses "Louvain" and thus increases the count of "Louvain"-sites - still Leuven is much more popular). The argument that the usages of Leuven is somehow less reliable does not make sense, as it would imply that 5 out of the 6 English-language sites dealing with these counts would be wrong! Morgengave ( talk) 21:41, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
aristocracy "counts of Leuven": 66 hits
aristocracy "counts of Louvain": 93 hits
"Lambert II of Leuven": 79 hits
"Lambert II of Louvain": 100 hits
Lambert II of Leuven: about 1,310,000 hits
Lambert II of Louvain: about 692,000 hits
"counts of leuven were": 4 hits
"counts of louvain were": 2 hits
While I understand the procedural grounds for its closing, I do not think your primary argument is so strong that it trumps all of the others. I too disagree with the Ghit procedure, and I will concede that scholarly sources have a tendency to use Louvain. On the other hand, I think it is much more logical to use the same name for the city/county everywhere in the encyclopedia rather than haphazardly changing it for every topic where the field shows a slight preference one way or the other.
Further, the "consensus" which closed the first rm was based on misinformation; after the move was closed 4-2, one of the supporters of the move realized, based on facts, that he should have voted in the other direction, making it 3-3, and not a consensus at all. Especially given that more voices have emerged aware of the move, I think that rejecting the rm's reopening was not correct. - Oreo Priest talk 15:44, 15 April 2012 (UTC)