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I don't live near KC, and don't currently have any personal photos of the Plaza, even though I've been there. If somebody has public domain photos of the Plaza they could post, it would help the article immensely. More and better verbiage would be nice, too. Thanks. -- Brian Rock 01:02, May 11, 2004 (UTC)
Priority questions can be complicated to resolve. The Market Square shopping center in Lake Forest, Illinois opened in 1916, was also planned around the automobile [1], but a case can often be made for being "first" by adding enough qualifying adjectives. It is best to share the credit in cases that are less than clear-cut. -- Blainster 22:35, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Priority questions CAN be complicated to resolve, but the Counry Club Plaza is widely regarded (by both laypersons and SCHOLARS) as the first shopping center specifically designed to accomodate the automobile. See, e.g., the following sources: Evan McKenzie, Privatopia: Homeowner Associations and the Rise of Residential Private Government (Yale University Press, 1996). Robert Pearson and Brad Pearson, The J. C. Nichols Chronicle: The Authorized Story of the Man and His Company, 1880–1994 (Lawrence, Kansas: University Press of Kansas). Sherry Lamb Shirmer, A City Divided: The Racial Landscape of Kansas City, 1900-1960. William S. Worley, J. C. Nichols and the Shaping of Kansas City: Innovation in Planned Residential Communities (Columbia, Missouri: University of Missouri Press, 1990). Questioning the factual accuracy of Wikipedia articles CAN be quite easy for laypersons unfamiliar with the nuances of the topic.
Moreover, a quick search of the Columbia Encyclopedia for "shopping center" reveals the following excerpt for the entry: "The modern shopping center differs from its antecedents—bazaars and marketplaces—in that the shops are usually amalgamated into one encompassing structure. The first modern shopping center, the Country Club Plaza, opened in Kansas City, Mo., in 1922 . . . See H. MacKeith, The History and Conservation of Shopping Arcades (1986); J. Garreau, Edge City: Life on the New Frontier (1991); M. Sorkin, ed., Variations on a Theme Park (1992)."
"...considered one of the most beautiful boulevards in the United States..." by whom? The author of that sentence? Claim needs to be cited or removed.-- Isotope23 17:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
The "large homes on Ward Parkway" aren't in the Country Club Plaza. The Plaza's boundaries end at 51st street (see KC's registered neighborhood map at KCMO.org). Those homes are in Sunset Hill. That edit should not have been reversed. I have changed the article back accordingly. 65.28.2.218 12:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Given that Sunset Hill was one subdivision in J.C. Nichols' associated Country Club District (for which it was named, in case it isn't clear to the above writer), it's relevant to include reference to the neighborhoods it was originally built to serve.
The article claims that Country Club Plaza was established in 1922, however the source cited claims that "Formal plans for the Country Club Plaza were drawn up in 1922." No date is given for the year construction began. No opening date has been given. The 'date of establishment' in regards to malls should be based on when they first opened. So, when you verify this dispute, please clarify exactly what happened in 1922 - "plans drawn", "construction began", or "opening date" - to avoid further confusion. -- RedPoptarts 07:13, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Added current cite for correct date. All above sources are "dead/expired" and therefore not verifiable. Developed/designed in 1922 according to Country Club website [2] and perhaps officially opened in 1923 from what I've researched and see sourced further in the article. Thank you... 63.131.4.149 ( talk) 13:30, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Can someone add another photo of the holiday lighting ceremony in the section about the "season of lights"? ('Layout and use') There are some within the article if you don't have one personally. One shows the shops with lights and another with fireworks as well. Unless you have your own (postcard/photo), pics from the Kansas City sites will work. I think it would be nice to have it since it's very popular and scenic. (considered a " world famous living legend" within articles) [3] There are better/newer ones available besides just the one within the "gallery" section. Perhaps creating a section just about the Plaza Lights would be warranted too. Just a thought. Thanks and happy holidays! 63.131.4.149 ( talk) 04:06, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
At the suggestion of an IP user, I'm opening discussion on the need and relevance of a long list of celebs who have done the honors and turned on the Plaza lights for the year. Hopefully everyone can come to consensus and avoid edit warring. What say you? Keep the list or delete? Reason(s)? Sector001 ( talk) 17:26, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Like any article someone spends time on, they may or may not have close ties to the topic nor have contributed to the majority of it. That shouldn't matter or be an issue. They may have just come across an article in need of assistance. That shouldn't discredit the fact what is included is appropriate and not an actual violation of Wikipedia. It simply means some of us spend the time to correct problems instead of cause more. It means checking around a bit for supportive cites and linking names/places/events to related articles. Not being lazy and just removing it or claiming it's "coat racking". Many articles include guests and years activities occurred (listed or in a paragraph), and with them being sourced and related to the article, I personally feel the notices/warnings at the beginning of this article were done in spite and revenge per the previous discussion. I could care less who is listed, I am simply playing devil's advocate for an editor who made the good faith contribution, by fixing the problems and trying to work with others to resolve a dispute, which is more than I can say for others who are causing conflict and being passive-aggressive. There is no reason it needs to be removed nor attention drawn to it. The article does not read like an advertisement. There were no problems with it until a specific editor was upset his/her reverts were not justified. It is a neutral "black-and-white" contribution that seems to be upsetting someone unrelated/unfamiliar with the topic, now bent on harassment. Instead of improving the content, the editor has simply removed it and been disruptive. I do not feel the templates are necessary/warranted, yet it does not change the fact that just because those who "flipped the switch" are mostly celebrities (note: some are civil service workers and military or were disadvantaged children in the past), doesn't mean someone is promoting them. It's a completely false accusation, and would mean all other articles that mention Obama (Stevie Wonder and Andy Griffith articles for example) or another celebrity in another article that corresponds with the topic, should also be removed. This is a petty issue that is being taken out of control and context (it's common for added information to be challenged but it is relevant in this case). As an encyclopedia, listing participants is a part of history about the event/ceremony and relative since some of those listed are from the community. The people mentioned pertain to the topic and does not deviate from it. Please give your mature, verifiable, unbiased/neutral input based on facts and actual proof. You can expand the list in fact, so that it's a complete table/list such as other articles with notable content. I encourage you not accuse, threaten or assume something untrue about good faith edits, nor revert without proper dispute/consensus resolution. Thank you very much! :) 74.62.92.20 ( talk) 00:49, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
I disagree, I think it actually does enhance it and gives it more credibility and notability. Plus, from what I understand, the show airs locally as a program each year. Like any show with episodes over the years, mentioning a few guests does enhance the article (as is done in other articles, some I mentioned above). And even if it doesn't, that is not Banner's argument. It was accused of "coat racking" and Banner was nearing a three-revert violation. I'm not sure who 74/99 is, but the original editor may have decided to only mention certain individuals, yet as is I trimmed it down from what it was to just list the people, not who they are (actor, player, etc.) even though anyone who can be verified could be added. I guarantee if someone like a president showed up or some event happened of significance, that would be added. Why can't local celebrities participating in the event like other articles mention not be included? It is not written to promote them. You are both giving different reasons for not keeping it. It just doesn't make sense. It doesn't harm the article either. So even with you agreeing with Banner, that is not a consensus yet. But thanks for your input, however, it's not a "reliable" factor for removing it to be honest. If anything, Banner is guilty of "conflict of interest" and caused a possible edit war. Why is this even a discussion? P.s. My main problem was how this, like many other chronic revert editors, was handled by Banner. Just undoing something never solves a problem and only escalates frustration on Wikipedia. 74.62.92.20 ( talk) 02:13, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
1. have no idea what you're talking about re: IPs and you shouldn't have a clouded judgment about me or any past edits/editors in general, as it appears you're assuming i'm someone else and letting it affect the task at hand. I could go look at your edits and cause you grief too, as you're not a perfect person. So let's move past that since you're obviously confused. This is not the place to even bring up such statements. Honestly, it's very unprofessional of you.
2. I have overly explained and sourced the info. You have to take the time to read this talk page and edit summaries. That's just the problem here, i'm doing the work. No one else is. Just looking at it and deciding to revert because you feel like it is not appropriate. At any rate, it's relevant since they participated in the event. Your example is not even close to the same thing. You and Banner are both making cases that do not exist. The article isn't making the same connection as your McD/JayZ comment. That is very different. If someone guest-starred on a show, they are included within an article. The ceremony is a televised event and in some cases celebrities have been involved with the festivities, just like during holiday parades that mention notable appearances.
3. You gave your input, but that does not entitle you to go removing a lot of content off the article. You and Banner are not removing identical issues on articles I provided, why hung up on this one and with me? It's very shady/creepy to be honest. Maybe you could go pick on another article, but my advice/suggestion to you both is to help create a happy editing atmosphere and contribute to cooperating with edits, not cause discord among other editors. I'm repeating myself again, take care! 74.62.92.20 ( talk) 03:12, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
The following should be replaced (three reverts) until the discussion/dispute is resolved. Removing it until is a violation and is disruptive or vandalism. A concensus has not been reached and according to the talk page, it is reliable/verifiable. If this is "wrong" then the presenters at the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade should also be removed as an example. Be consistent, you are not supposed to be "right" or get your way. This is not a violation, the reasons given for not keeping it do not hold water and are self-serving. I will take this to a discussion board if necessary, as a matter of principle. When someone comes along and challenges editors to contribute/assit and not just revert, users/editors should not be bullied into giving up. People can get their feelings/egos hurt and remove content based on "power-tripping", but that is not appropriate on Wikipedia. Follow policy, have some integrity and be cooperative. Thanks! 74.62.92.20 ( talk) 02:50, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
Some notable guests/hosts/presenters and "switch-flippers" in the past (many living in or originally from the Kansas City metropolitan area) have included: Rob Riggle (2013), [12] Matt Besler, Kei Kamara and Jimmy Nielsen of Sporting Kansas City (2012), [13] Eric Stonestreet (2011), [14] Thomas Jones and Jamaal Charles of the Kansas City Chiefs (2010), Jason Sudeikis (2009), David Cook (2008), [15] members of the armed forces (2007), Bobby Bell, Willie Lanier and Clark Hunt (2006), Dick Vermeil (2005), Mickey Mouse and Minnie Mouse (2004), Kate Spade (2003), Trent Green (2002), Tony Gonzalez (2001), Maurice Greene (2000), George Brett (in 1977 and 1999), Paul Rudd (1998), Marcus Allen (1997), Buck O’Neil (1996), Roy Williams (1995), Derrick Thomas (1994), Oleta Adams (1991), Lee Greenwood (1990), Dee Wallace (1989), Nicolette Larson (1983), Walter Cronkite, Tom Watson and William Christopher, among others. [16] [17]
You don't get to decide that it's spammy or insignificant. It's not a random listing, they were involved in the ceremony. You are not reading anything. Not sure who you think you are, but it's clear you came to cause problems and not help. I will take this up with a resolution board, not you. I am also not on a third revert, that would be you and Banner. You are also in violation of consensus/dispute resolution. Are you even reading this????? THEY DID NOT JUST VISIT! THEY PARTICIPATED! What are you not understanding? Are you doing this on purpose? Have you read the actual text? Have you checked even ONE source? "I will review in a few hours!"? I will exit this topic and resign from this IP as it's clear you're stalking me for some reason. You're way too weird for me... Bye! P.s. check the articles I gave an example and remove the content on them. Yeah right, my point made. Where there is you and a few others, there must always be trouble. 74.62.92.20 ( talk) 03:22, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
Hell In A Bucket ( talk) 07:43, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
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St. John is no longer on the plaza also TIVOL (a family owned and operated 110 year old business) should definitely be included on this list of current high-end tenants. 4.53.38.34 ( talk) 20:14, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Country Club Plaza article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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I don't live near KC, and don't currently have any personal photos of the Plaza, even though I've been there. If somebody has public domain photos of the Plaza they could post, it would help the article immensely. More and better verbiage would be nice, too. Thanks. -- Brian Rock 01:02, May 11, 2004 (UTC)
Priority questions can be complicated to resolve. The Market Square shopping center in Lake Forest, Illinois opened in 1916, was also planned around the automobile [1], but a case can often be made for being "first" by adding enough qualifying adjectives. It is best to share the credit in cases that are less than clear-cut. -- Blainster 22:35, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Priority questions CAN be complicated to resolve, but the Counry Club Plaza is widely regarded (by both laypersons and SCHOLARS) as the first shopping center specifically designed to accomodate the automobile. See, e.g., the following sources: Evan McKenzie, Privatopia: Homeowner Associations and the Rise of Residential Private Government (Yale University Press, 1996). Robert Pearson and Brad Pearson, The J. C. Nichols Chronicle: The Authorized Story of the Man and His Company, 1880–1994 (Lawrence, Kansas: University Press of Kansas). Sherry Lamb Shirmer, A City Divided: The Racial Landscape of Kansas City, 1900-1960. William S. Worley, J. C. Nichols and the Shaping of Kansas City: Innovation in Planned Residential Communities (Columbia, Missouri: University of Missouri Press, 1990). Questioning the factual accuracy of Wikipedia articles CAN be quite easy for laypersons unfamiliar with the nuances of the topic.
Moreover, a quick search of the Columbia Encyclopedia for "shopping center" reveals the following excerpt for the entry: "The modern shopping center differs from its antecedents—bazaars and marketplaces—in that the shops are usually amalgamated into one encompassing structure. The first modern shopping center, the Country Club Plaza, opened in Kansas City, Mo., in 1922 . . . See H. MacKeith, The History and Conservation of Shopping Arcades (1986); J. Garreau, Edge City: Life on the New Frontier (1991); M. Sorkin, ed., Variations on a Theme Park (1992)."
"...considered one of the most beautiful boulevards in the United States..." by whom? The author of that sentence? Claim needs to be cited or removed.-- Isotope23 17:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
The "large homes on Ward Parkway" aren't in the Country Club Plaza. The Plaza's boundaries end at 51st street (see KC's registered neighborhood map at KCMO.org). Those homes are in Sunset Hill. That edit should not have been reversed. I have changed the article back accordingly. 65.28.2.218 12:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Given that Sunset Hill was one subdivision in J.C. Nichols' associated Country Club District (for which it was named, in case it isn't clear to the above writer), it's relevant to include reference to the neighborhoods it was originally built to serve.
The article claims that Country Club Plaza was established in 1922, however the source cited claims that "Formal plans for the Country Club Plaza were drawn up in 1922." No date is given for the year construction began. No opening date has been given. The 'date of establishment' in regards to malls should be based on when they first opened. So, when you verify this dispute, please clarify exactly what happened in 1922 - "plans drawn", "construction began", or "opening date" - to avoid further confusion. -- RedPoptarts 07:13, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Added current cite for correct date. All above sources are "dead/expired" and therefore not verifiable. Developed/designed in 1922 according to Country Club website [2] and perhaps officially opened in 1923 from what I've researched and see sourced further in the article. Thank you... 63.131.4.149 ( talk) 13:30, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Can someone add another photo of the holiday lighting ceremony in the section about the "season of lights"? ('Layout and use') There are some within the article if you don't have one personally. One shows the shops with lights and another with fireworks as well. Unless you have your own (postcard/photo), pics from the Kansas City sites will work. I think it would be nice to have it since it's very popular and scenic. (considered a " world famous living legend" within articles) [3] There are better/newer ones available besides just the one within the "gallery" section. Perhaps creating a section just about the Plaza Lights would be warranted too. Just a thought. Thanks and happy holidays! 63.131.4.149 ( talk) 04:06, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
At the suggestion of an IP user, I'm opening discussion on the need and relevance of a long list of celebs who have done the honors and turned on the Plaza lights for the year. Hopefully everyone can come to consensus and avoid edit warring. What say you? Keep the list or delete? Reason(s)? Sector001 ( talk) 17:26, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Like any article someone spends time on, they may or may not have close ties to the topic nor have contributed to the majority of it. That shouldn't matter or be an issue. They may have just come across an article in need of assistance. That shouldn't discredit the fact what is included is appropriate and not an actual violation of Wikipedia. It simply means some of us spend the time to correct problems instead of cause more. It means checking around a bit for supportive cites and linking names/places/events to related articles. Not being lazy and just removing it or claiming it's "coat racking". Many articles include guests and years activities occurred (listed or in a paragraph), and with them being sourced and related to the article, I personally feel the notices/warnings at the beginning of this article were done in spite and revenge per the previous discussion. I could care less who is listed, I am simply playing devil's advocate for an editor who made the good faith contribution, by fixing the problems and trying to work with others to resolve a dispute, which is more than I can say for others who are causing conflict and being passive-aggressive. There is no reason it needs to be removed nor attention drawn to it. The article does not read like an advertisement. There were no problems with it until a specific editor was upset his/her reverts were not justified. It is a neutral "black-and-white" contribution that seems to be upsetting someone unrelated/unfamiliar with the topic, now bent on harassment. Instead of improving the content, the editor has simply removed it and been disruptive. I do not feel the templates are necessary/warranted, yet it does not change the fact that just because those who "flipped the switch" are mostly celebrities (note: some are civil service workers and military or were disadvantaged children in the past), doesn't mean someone is promoting them. It's a completely false accusation, and would mean all other articles that mention Obama (Stevie Wonder and Andy Griffith articles for example) or another celebrity in another article that corresponds with the topic, should also be removed. This is a petty issue that is being taken out of control and context (it's common for added information to be challenged but it is relevant in this case). As an encyclopedia, listing participants is a part of history about the event/ceremony and relative since some of those listed are from the community. The people mentioned pertain to the topic and does not deviate from it. Please give your mature, verifiable, unbiased/neutral input based on facts and actual proof. You can expand the list in fact, so that it's a complete table/list such as other articles with notable content. I encourage you not accuse, threaten or assume something untrue about good faith edits, nor revert without proper dispute/consensus resolution. Thank you very much! :) 74.62.92.20 ( talk) 00:49, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
I disagree, I think it actually does enhance it and gives it more credibility and notability. Plus, from what I understand, the show airs locally as a program each year. Like any show with episodes over the years, mentioning a few guests does enhance the article (as is done in other articles, some I mentioned above). And even if it doesn't, that is not Banner's argument. It was accused of "coat racking" and Banner was nearing a three-revert violation. I'm not sure who 74/99 is, but the original editor may have decided to only mention certain individuals, yet as is I trimmed it down from what it was to just list the people, not who they are (actor, player, etc.) even though anyone who can be verified could be added. I guarantee if someone like a president showed up or some event happened of significance, that would be added. Why can't local celebrities participating in the event like other articles mention not be included? It is not written to promote them. You are both giving different reasons for not keeping it. It just doesn't make sense. It doesn't harm the article either. So even with you agreeing with Banner, that is not a consensus yet. But thanks for your input, however, it's not a "reliable" factor for removing it to be honest. If anything, Banner is guilty of "conflict of interest" and caused a possible edit war. Why is this even a discussion? P.s. My main problem was how this, like many other chronic revert editors, was handled by Banner. Just undoing something never solves a problem and only escalates frustration on Wikipedia. 74.62.92.20 ( talk) 02:13, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
1. have no idea what you're talking about re: IPs and you shouldn't have a clouded judgment about me or any past edits/editors in general, as it appears you're assuming i'm someone else and letting it affect the task at hand. I could go look at your edits and cause you grief too, as you're not a perfect person. So let's move past that since you're obviously confused. This is not the place to even bring up such statements. Honestly, it's very unprofessional of you.
2. I have overly explained and sourced the info. You have to take the time to read this talk page and edit summaries. That's just the problem here, i'm doing the work. No one else is. Just looking at it and deciding to revert because you feel like it is not appropriate. At any rate, it's relevant since they participated in the event. Your example is not even close to the same thing. You and Banner are both making cases that do not exist. The article isn't making the same connection as your McD/JayZ comment. That is very different. If someone guest-starred on a show, they are included within an article. The ceremony is a televised event and in some cases celebrities have been involved with the festivities, just like during holiday parades that mention notable appearances.
3. You gave your input, but that does not entitle you to go removing a lot of content off the article. You and Banner are not removing identical issues on articles I provided, why hung up on this one and with me? It's very shady/creepy to be honest. Maybe you could go pick on another article, but my advice/suggestion to you both is to help create a happy editing atmosphere and contribute to cooperating with edits, not cause discord among other editors. I'm repeating myself again, take care! 74.62.92.20 ( talk) 03:12, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
The following should be replaced (three reverts) until the discussion/dispute is resolved. Removing it until is a violation and is disruptive or vandalism. A concensus has not been reached and according to the talk page, it is reliable/verifiable. If this is "wrong" then the presenters at the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade should also be removed as an example. Be consistent, you are not supposed to be "right" or get your way. This is not a violation, the reasons given for not keeping it do not hold water and are self-serving. I will take this to a discussion board if necessary, as a matter of principle. When someone comes along and challenges editors to contribute/assit and not just revert, users/editors should not be bullied into giving up. People can get their feelings/egos hurt and remove content based on "power-tripping", but that is not appropriate on Wikipedia. Follow policy, have some integrity and be cooperative. Thanks! 74.62.92.20 ( talk) 02:50, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
Some notable guests/hosts/presenters and "switch-flippers" in the past (many living in or originally from the Kansas City metropolitan area) have included: Rob Riggle (2013), [12] Matt Besler, Kei Kamara and Jimmy Nielsen of Sporting Kansas City (2012), [13] Eric Stonestreet (2011), [14] Thomas Jones and Jamaal Charles of the Kansas City Chiefs (2010), Jason Sudeikis (2009), David Cook (2008), [15] members of the armed forces (2007), Bobby Bell, Willie Lanier and Clark Hunt (2006), Dick Vermeil (2005), Mickey Mouse and Minnie Mouse (2004), Kate Spade (2003), Trent Green (2002), Tony Gonzalez (2001), Maurice Greene (2000), George Brett (in 1977 and 1999), Paul Rudd (1998), Marcus Allen (1997), Buck O’Neil (1996), Roy Williams (1995), Derrick Thomas (1994), Oleta Adams (1991), Lee Greenwood (1990), Dee Wallace (1989), Nicolette Larson (1983), Walter Cronkite, Tom Watson and William Christopher, among others. [16] [17]
You don't get to decide that it's spammy or insignificant. It's not a random listing, they were involved in the ceremony. You are not reading anything. Not sure who you think you are, but it's clear you came to cause problems and not help. I will take this up with a resolution board, not you. I am also not on a third revert, that would be you and Banner. You are also in violation of consensus/dispute resolution. Are you even reading this????? THEY DID NOT JUST VISIT! THEY PARTICIPATED! What are you not understanding? Are you doing this on purpose? Have you read the actual text? Have you checked even ONE source? "I will review in a few hours!"? I will exit this topic and resign from this IP as it's clear you're stalking me for some reason. You're way too weird for me... Bye! P.s. check the articles I gave an example and remove the content on them. Yeah right, my point made. Where there is you and a few others, there must always be trouble. 74.62.92.20 ( talk) 03:22, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
Hell In A Bucket ( talk) 07:43, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
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St. John is no longer on the plaza also TIVOL (a family owned and operated 110 year old business) should definitely be included on this list of current high-end tenants. 4.53.38.34 ( talk) 20:14, 1 December 2020 (UTC)