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To-do list for Counties of England:
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It might be a thought to throw in a mention of the "Postal Counties". Although the Post Office now no longer (since 1996) formally requires a county to be included on an address, they do organise on a county basis but don't always follow either traditional or administrative boundaries - for example Denham is in the postal county of Middlesex but the traditional and administrative county of Buckinghamshire. Even without the formal requirement, many given addresses still include the county, whilst a lot of forms for postal addresses have a clear section for a "County" and many people will decide what county a place is in on the basis of what would be in that section, irrespective of what the traditional or administrative boundaries are. It's not that different from people in London saying they live in, say, "W1". -- Timrollpickering 22:39, Feb 9, 2004 UTC.
I think that this would make more sense at county (England), since it is about what a county is, in England. What do other people think? -- Oliver P. — Preceding undated comment added 03:21, 9 March 2004 (UTC)
I've just rewritten the intro of this page and am looking for feedback and comments. When I looked at it earlier, it struck me that it didn't really define what the "counties of England" were (as much as one can anyway), so I've tried to correct that. I've also tried to give a sense of the ambiguity this term has when used in the strictest sense.
I imagine this article would be the one most readers would look at first if they were interested in the development of England's county structure, so it's important to get it spot on.
I look forward to seeing what people have to say! A q uilina 17:02, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I came to this article looking for a list of the current counties of England. It is not clear on first glance what is what today. I'd expect to be given a list of each county linking to an individual page and the number of counties in current existence given. Ashfan83 20:51, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Been searching through The Times archive looking for usage. The term "geographical county" seems to pop up first in 1888. Tracking down usages which actually show the precise sense it is being used in is tricky - especially regarding county boroughs.
I note that a report in the 1901 Middlesex census (The Census Of Middlesex, on August 25, 1902), contrasts "geographical county of Middlesex" with the "ancient county of Middlesex" (which included bits of the county of London). There's a reference in 1904 to the "geographic county of London". A reference in 1932 says that the administrative county of Essex is the "geographical county of Essex exclusive of the county boroughs of West Ham, East Ham and Southend". A 1945 report outright says that geographical county=administrative county+county boroughs. Morwen - Talk 18:22, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
There are no labels on any of these maps. JIMp talk· cont 00:09, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Still no labels DennyFido ( talk) 18:13, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
Shires of England, with explanation that they have been modified and redefined over time, so that some are not shires, but are counties or unitary authorities... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.171.236.188 ( talk) 13:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
why doesn't this just tell me how many counties are is England?!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.245.36 ( talk • contribs) 18:35, 27 January 2010
The article states that there are three exceptions, namely Greater London, City of London and Isles of Scilly, which are ceremonial counties, but do not correspond to any metropolitan and non-metropolitan county, unlike the rest of England.
Is this correct?
As far as I know, the Isles of Scilly are not a ceremonial county in themselves, but are part of the ceremonial county of Cornwall, which, of course, does correspond to a non-metropolitan county.
It would only be correct to say that the Isles of Scilly are anomalous in that unlike the rest of England (outside Greater London), it is an area not within any metropolitan or non-metropolitan county.
Yamor2 (
talk)
12:08, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
COMMENT by David Southwell
The County of South Gloucestershirew does not appear in the table. I added the county but it was removed. For reference about the county see
[1]
This county is a county of England. Its administrative centre is in Thornbury. It is NOT part of Gloucestershire and is a separate County with its own Lord Lieutenant. Please make sure it is included in the table. --
vizion (
talk)
10:09, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
References
An image has been added to the page of the flags representing the Historic counties of England, labelled simply "County Flags of England". It replaced a similar image that represented the flags of the contemporary ceremonial counties. This is obviously highly misleading, as it implies that the historic counties are the contemporary counties of England, an impression that is being encouraged by the Association of British Counties as part of a deliberate campaign here - [2]. I've therefore deleted it. Correctly labelled something like "Flags of historic counties of England" it could perhaps sit comfortably on the Historic counties of England page? The ceremonial counties image belongs more comfortably on this page, but it too should be accurately labelled before being restored. JimmyGuano ( talk) 19:07, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
In the map, Oxfordshire has been abbreviated to "Oxon", which I find confusing as there is no "n" in the word. Might another abbreviation be better, e.g. "Oxfordsh"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.248.161 ( talk) 15:23, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
Speaking as a non-Englishman who lived in England over two years, the logical conclusion to this article (written with very little source citations) is that NOBODY HAS A CLUE on how English government works; it seems a hodgepodge of arcane incomprehensible complexity. A tale told by an idiot, full of sound & fury, signifying nothing.( PeacePeace ( talk) 00:06, 2 November 2017 (UTC))
This article is probably the best place to start in trying to untangle the mess that bedevils nearly all wp articles about UK counties. I hope to start by making a few edits that will redirect the thought process taken and hopefully end up with a clearer route forward. All changes will, of course, be properly sourced and as far as I know be in line with wp policy. I would hope that other editors enter discussion here before reverting any changes, some of which might be part of wider editing. The lead is meant to summarise the article that follows. I intend, in this case, reverting the process and changing the lead first. It is much simpler to do it that way. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 09:39, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
"Would point out for clarity, this article is a guideline, not policy as commonly stated at other pages' chat pages. Mikewhit ( talk) 18:41, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
The map is entitled 'Historic counties in 1851'. Why 1851? I assume this is because it takes into account the adjustments of enclaves and exclaves that had just occurred at that time, and that 1851 is the starting point adopted by the ABC and other lobby groups. But why should we highlight that date? Highlighting 1851 is unnecessary. If we use any date it should be 2021. What changes to the map have occurred between 1851 and today? Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 20:12, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Cornwall is like Herefordshire or Northumberland, not like Dorset or Shropshire - one council. Mdrb55 ( talk) 22:57, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
I think my previous comment may be wrong - I'd forgotten the Isles of Scilly Mdrb55 ( talk) 21:29, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Carpenter armslane 2A02:A420:54:F673:484D:62ED:205C:7201 ( talk) 23:13, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
To-do list for Counties of England:
|
It might be a thought to throw in a mention of the "Postal Counties". Although the Post Office now no longer (since 1996) formally requires a county to be included on an address, they do organise on a county basis but don't always follow either traditional or administrative boundaries - for example Denham is in the postal county of Middlesex but the traditional and administrative county of Buckinghamshire. Even without the formal requirement, many given addresses still include the county, whilst a lot of forms for postal addresses have a clear section for a "County" and many people will decide what county a place is in on the basis of what would be in that section, irrespective of what the traditional or administrative boundaries are. It's not that different from people in London saying they live in, say, "W1". -- Timrollpickering 22:39, Feb 9, 2004 UTC.
I think that this would make more sense at county (England), since it is about what a county is, in England. What do other people think? -- Oliver P. — Preceding undated comment added 03:21, 9 March 2004 (UTC)
I've just rewritten the intro of this page and am looking for feedback and comments. When I looked at it earlier, it struck me that it didn't really define what the "counties of England" were (as much as one can anyway), so I've tried to correct that. I've also tried to give a sense of the ambiguity this term has when used in the strictest sense.
I imagine this article would be the one most readers would look at first if they were interested in the development of England's county structure, so it's important to get it spot on.
I look forward to seeing what people have to say! A q uilina 17:02, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I came to this article looking for a list of the current counties of England. It is not clear on first glance what is what today. I'd expect to be given a list of each county linking to an individual page and the number of counties in current existence given. Ashfan83 20:51, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Been searching through The Times archive looking for usage. The term "geographical county" seems to pop up first in 1888. Tracking down usages which actually show the precise sense it is being used in is tricky - especially regarding county boroughs.
I note that a report in the 1901 Middlesex census (The Census Of Middlesex, on August 25, 1902), contrasts "geographical county of Middlesex" with the "ancient county of Middlesex" (which included bits of the county of London). There's a reference in 1904 to the "geographic county of London". A reference in 1932 says that the administrative county of Essex is the "geographical county of Essex exclusive of the county boroughs of West Ham, East Ham and Southend". A 1945 report outright says that geographical county=administrative county+county boroughs. Morwen - Talk 18:22, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
There are no labels on any of these maps. JIMp talk· cont 00:09, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Still no labels DennyFido ( talk) 18:13, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
Shires of England, with explanation that they have been modified and redefined over time, so that some are not shires, but are counties or unitary authorities... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.171.236.188 ( talk) 13:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
why doesn't this just tell me how many counties are is England?!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.245.36 ( talk • contribs) 18:35, 27 January 2010
The article states that there are three exceptions, namely Greater London, City of London and Isles of Scilly, which are ceremonial counties, but do not correspond to any metropolitan and non-metropolitan county, unlike the rest of England.
Is this correct?
As far as I know, the Isles of Scilly are not a ceremonial county in themselves, but are part of the ceremonial county of Cornwall, which, of course, does correspond to a non-metropolitan county.
It would only be correct to say that the Isles of Scilly are anomalous in that unlike the rest of England (outside Greater London), it is an area not within any metropolitan or non-metropolitan county.
Yamor2 (
talk)
12:08, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
COMMENT by David Southwell
The County of South Gloucestershirew does not appear in the table. I added the county but it was removed. For reference about the county see
[1]
This county is a county of England. Its administrative centre is in Thornbury. It is NOT part of Gloucestershire and is a separate County with its own Lord Lieutenant. Please make sure it is included in the table. --
vizion (
talk)
10:09, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
References
An image has been added to the page of the flags representing the Historic counties of England, labelled simply "County Flags of England". It replaced a similar image that represented the flags of the contemporary ceremonial counties. This is obviously highly misleading, as it implies that the historic counties are the contemporary counties of England, an impression that is being encouraged by the Association of British Counties as part of a deliberate campaign here - [2]. I've therefore deleted it. Correctly labelled something like "Flags of historic counties of England" it could perhaps sit comfortably on the Historic counties of England page? The ceremonial counties image belongs more comfortably on this page, but it too should be accurately labelled before being restored. JimmyGuano ( talk) 19:07, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
In the map, Oxfordshire has been abbreviated to "Oxon", which I find confusing as there is no "n" in the word. Might another abbreviation be better, e.g. "Oxfordsh"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.248.161 ( talk) 15:23, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
Speaking as a non-Englishman who lived in England over two years, the logical conclusion to this article (written with very little source citations) is that NOBODY HAS A CLUE on how English government works; it seems a hodgepodge of arcane incomprehensible complexity. A tale told by an idiot, full of sound & fury, signifying nothing.( PeacePeace ( talk) 00:06, 2 November 2017 (UTC))
This article is probably the best place to start in trying to untangle the mess that bedevils nearly all wp articles about UK counties. I hope to start by making a few edits that will redirect the thought process taken and hopefully end up with a clearer route forward. All changes will, of course, be properly sourced and as far as I know be in line with wp policy. I would hope that other editors enter discussion here before reverting any changes, some of which might be part of wider editing. The lead is meant to summarise the article that follows. I intend, in this case, reverting the process and changing the lead first. It is much simpler to do it that way. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 09:39, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
"Would point out for clarity, this article is a guideline, not policy as commonly stated at other pages' chat pages. Mikewhit ( talk) 18:41, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
The map is entitled 'Historic counties in 1851'. Why 1851? I assume this is because it takes into account the adjustments of enclaves and exclaves that had just occurred at that time, and that 1851 is the starting point adopted by the ABC and other lobby groups. But why should we highlight that date? Highlighting 1851 is unnecessary. If we use any date it should be 2021. What changes to the map have occurred between 1851 and today? Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 20:12, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Cornwall is like Herefordshire or Northumberland, not like Dorset or Shropshire - one council. Mdrb55 ( talk) 22:57, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
I think my previous comment may be wrong - I'd forgotten the Isles of Scilly Mdrb55 ( talk) 21:29, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Carpenter armslane 2A02:A420:54:F673:484D:62ED:205C:7201 ( talk) 23:13, 23 December 2023 (UTC)