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Regarding the edit by 66.72.23.227 (deletion of incorrect assumption that monotheistic religions such as Christianity believe that man is inherently good): I didn't write that those religions believe that; I wrote that the idea is rooted in those religions, for example, imago viva dei, man in the image of God. I won't tamper with your edit, but I think that this is a point worth discussing. Where did the idea come from originally, that man is not just a Hobbesian beast? -- Herschelkrustofsky 00:32, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It certainly didn't come from Christianity. Romans 3:23 states, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (NIV) You have construed man created in the image of God to mean that man is inherently "good" (morally). This is inconsistent with many passages in the Old and New Testaments. -- Knardi 04:17, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Herschelkrustofsky's point is best described as the Christian idea that man is inherently valuable instead of the idea that man is inherently good. Nevertheless this idea belongs more on a sociology discussion board rather than an article about counterculture.
The article previously at this page was a mess of Lyndon LaRouche propaganda and totally irrelevant and specious nonsense. No article at all is much preferable. A new article needs to be written by someone familiar with the cultural history of the 1960s, the writings of Theodore Roszak, Herbert Marcuse etc. If no-one else does something about it, I will do so when I get time. Adam 08:14, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Note that User:AndyL's edits [1] replaced a grammatically correct formulation, with a grammatically incorrect one. The use of the subjunctive is appropriate here. -- Herschelkrustofsky 15:30, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The current, protected version of this article is vapid and semi-literate, and part of the ongoing campaign of vandalism carried out by Adam Carr, User:AndyL, and some anonymous person from the University of Houston (see Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Lyndon_LaRouche/Evidence). I am posting the deleted version of the article below. -- Herschelkrustofsky 19:46, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
A vendetta? What did Lyndon LaRouche ever do to me? AndyL 12:13, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
That's what I'd like to know. Other than advocating the American system, of course. -- Herschelkrustofsky 14:38, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Actually, I prefer the "American System" to 19th century British liberalism. In any case, the point is there is no vendetta since there's no motive on my part for revenge. Please contain your hyperbole. AndyL 16:35, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I have unprotected the page. Any edit war that was going on did not appear serious. Be good. UninvitedCompany 23:02, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
User 4.168.90.122, which part of the article do you think is non-neutral? -- Gary D 20:00, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
cultural equivalent of a political Opposition. -- POV? ~ 67.42.203.155 07:54, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Would it be alright if a new section were added on 2000s counterculture movements, and the rebeliion agaisnt what apparently a lot of skin heads feel, is an overly "liberal" society, as there is clearly an obedience-movment in this country, that almost seems like the opposite of 60s counterculture, which would make it counter-counter-culture, which is a tounge twister, to say the least, and seeing as how this all seems based on the idea that there is a great "liberal" force controlling their government, they would probably classify themselves as being counter to some force they think controls the government, so would it be fair to classify this new ultra-loyal-unquestioning group as a type of counter culture? -- 172.155.226.167 16:07, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I think something should be said about modern counter culture movements too, such as the punk, goth and emo. I also find it interesting that Catholics who consider a religious vocation are also considered counter culture. Perhaps something about modern day monastic life might be interesting as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Purrabella ( talk • contribs) 23:14, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I began to describe this phenomenon in the last paragraph of the “Russian section”. The phenomenon is that the developments in the contra-culture are absorbed by the “pro-culture” and become popularized. I provided as an example Russian band “Leningrad”. Surely there are also a lot of other examples in music, literature etc. Please extend the paragraph with your examples. Thanx for spelling-check in advance!
I'd like to add a section about the counterculture in México. Eric Zolov wrote a book on the subject, and it is one of my favorite books of all time. If I forget, would someone remind me?-- Rockero 03:43, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
This sounds quite triumphalist and I suspect it was written by a proud dutchman or perhaps by a Netherlands enthusiast; but that excerpt is definitely both unencyclopedic in its wording AND POV! Justice III 20:24, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I've made some edits in the chapter about the Netherlands' counterculture. It was indeed quite POV and contained many generalizations and misinterpretations. The importance of counterculture for the Netherlands was somewhat exaggerated. I've been quite lenient in editing, there are still questionable parts in the chapter (i.e. the part about Belgium). Daaf 14:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Although I disagree quality can only be better after debate instead of after an individual decision, I'll explain my qualms with certain sections and the chapter in general. As a whole it's very speculative, since it assumes Dutch counterculture has become mainstream. There are many sections where the connection with counterculture isn't clear. It also gives some dubious examples of Dutch counterculture, which don't really belong in an encyclopedia.
BTW I think this chapter about Dutch counterculture should have it's own article, because it is quite different in nature and impact from the American counterculture.
Now about the specific sections:
Section about Belgium: I don't see what this section has to with Dutch counterculture. There has always been rivalry between the two countries, and the Dutch have always been known to be the more cheeky/rude ones. Holland has a superiority complex and Belgium an inferiority complex. That hasn't got much (if anything) to do with Dutch counterculture though. I've also never heard about Dutch people terrorizing Antwerp, or Belgians being angry about Dutch casanovas. It's all quite speculative and it certainly hasn't had a big impact so I don't think it's relevant for this article.
The following section is especially bad: saying that American conservatives 'misinterpretate' Dutch liberalism is POV. So is the assertion that humanism is one of the basic values of Dutch society - is it not in America? And has it got anything to do with Dutch progressiveness or rudeness? Words like "fuck," "asshole" or "cunt" aren't that accepted as suggested in Dutch media. Furthermore, "asshole" and "cunt" aren't used at all, and there aren't very clear Dutch equivalents so it doesn't make a lot of sense. "The Dutch prefer to call it honesty; Dutch people do as they feel." is not encyclopedaic use of language at all. It also is POV.
"Some Christians and Muslims in the Netherlands have a minority complex, because their values are ridiculed in Dutch society." is also POV, and speculative. The mention of Czech republic and Estonia isn't useful, because those countries are secularized for very different reasons than in the Netherlands.
"Dutch people have had a strong inclination to change the world in recent decades, desiring a world with more honesty, happiness, and less suffering. Dutch news gives a lot of attention to events in foreign countries. The Dutch have been strongly anti-nationalist." This sentence gives a somewhat wrong impression, as if the Dutch are all extremely idealistic hippies.
"Pim Fortuyn was against the backwardness of the Islamic culture." This could be interpreted to imply Islamic culture is backwards.
"Fortuyn replied by saying that the sperm of Moroccans tasted the same as that of other people. This was quoted in the major newspapers." This is important how exactly? The whole section about Fortuyn doesn't make clear what it has to do with counterculture.
I hope this has cleared up the reasons for my deleting some sections, and we can agree to make some edits.
Daaf 00:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
The article on punk tribute band Gabba is marked for deletion. Their musical short film won the 2003 "Special Independent Film Award" at London's counterculture Portobello Film Festival (sources at article). You may want to vote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gabba (band) -- 62.147.37.227 13:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
How true actually is it that the counterculture originated in the USA? parallel movements in France and the UK, for example, not to mention Holland and West Germany, Scandinavia, etc, *might* have predated that movement...who is to say? thus, how factually concrete is it to say it started in the US? if it is not factually concrete then the info needs changing. thanks Peter morrell 14:34, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I have no personal stake in this, but why did you decide to delete the information provided about the tension between the Dutch and the Flemish? It did seem relevant to me, so this might qualify as vandalism. Founders4 19:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Just visited this article after an absence and noticed that entire sections had been deleted with no explanation. The funny thing is that this happened without my being aware of it, though the article is on my watch list.
Why did someone delete the section on "Counterculture in the Netherlands," for example.
Care to comment? Founders4 09:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I think I'll leave the editing to someone a little more qualified on the subject than me, but I am really wondering about the accuracy of the last paragraph. Can someone find a source, or should it be removed? Minidoxigirli 14:58, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
"If it were possible to form a state or an army exclusively of homosexuals, these men would direct all their emulations toward honors, and going into battle with such a spirit would, even if their numbers were small, conquer the entire world." -- Plato, The Banquet
"They, the homosexuals, are among the best among the boys and young men because they are the most valiant of them. This is strikingly demonstrated by the fact that, after growing up, they - and they alone - are fit for ruling the state." -- Plato, The Banquet
Plato taught Aristotle, who taught Alexander the Great. Of course we disagree with Plato that these are anything but human turds trying to make decisions for the other 90% of us who are normal people, so what Plato said is exactly what we are rebelling against. If you'd like to see more, much more, just reply. -- CHAV
Here is the difference between the Democrat and Republican parties. Bot hparties are in favor of war and homosexuality. But Democrats put mnore of an emphasis on pushing homosexuality first, war second. Republicans have an emphasis on war first, but they are closet homosexuals. The counterculture is not a mirror of this, it is something totally different. The popular revolution against these human turds in our government, these gay hawks,is alive and well! See ya! --CHAV
"However, the fastest-growing counterculture in the US today would seem to be one combining elements of both of these, into the "establishment"'s absolute worst nightmare: a youth movement that is at once anti-war AND anti-gay marriage. This would indeed be a 'counterculture' in the truest sense, its very existence representing the gravest threat to those segments who are both pro-war and pro-gay, since the Yippies in the era of LBJ and J. Edgar Hoover."
That section is just silly. "Many" is such a pejorative term. Also, "studies" should be linked to if they're going to be referenced. minidoxigirli- talk-- contribs 08:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I just spent some time trying to clean up this article with regard to formatting, citations and internal links, but I think there is a larger problem with the way in which the section is written. It reads like a exam essay with a strong personal view. In fact, I suspect the contributor just pasted the entire text in and clicked "save", which would account for all of the poor formatting and lack of links and attributions. I also strongly suspect that there is a degree of bias from some editors with the profound amount of "ciatation needed" tags--particularly in the last paragraph. This topic is not my area of expertise, but rather one that I am somewhat familiar with, so I would look to an expert to concisely define the LGBT lifestyle as a valid historical countercultural movement. I believe it is and would be well worth reading. grit 01 March 07
On the first paraphrasing of Kaiser:
"But homosexuality ... was not a significant movement in itself.[3]"
May suggest that the writer believes or agrees with the notion of homosexuality as a "movement" i.e. trend or campaign? elle 21:35, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
"Imperialist, evangelical and oppressive"? An extreme oversimplification with respect to "evangelical" (are all those who favor current U.S. foreign policy evangelical), "imperialist" and "oppressive"...give me a break. I intend to delete this section. Any comments? Apostle12 03:12, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
This article drones on about the sixties kids,how awesome they are and how much good they did. Really.Sorry,I didnt realize how being a lazy dumbass who smokes pot and never works qualifys as a "social movement".Whatever you say I guess.C'mon.Lets not pretend these people are "intellectuals" who changed the way we view the world.There not much different then your average street criminal degenerate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.22.84.93 ( talk) 03:55, 15 April 2007 (UTC).
Hippies were merely the tools of affluent, marxist indoctrinated people seeking power. Power that they still hold. It occurred to me the other day?. Why aren't liberals..... liberal?. It's because they never were, although the people they used were. It's impossible to write about this without some bias. Libertarian ideals were more in line with what the hippies thought, the people that pulled the strings were neo-marxists pretending to embrace dialectical idealism, but actually they were mostly pretending to embrace marxism too. Power was the goal to be achieved, and having achieved that power, they have instituted a police state that is more invasive than any 1950s nightmare including penalties for things down to seat belt traffic citations and very high sin taxes. That is, unless you are one of the very finely defined "oppressed". My comments are biased, but so is the article in question. I think you could also examine the definition of neo-marxism in the context of american life. The correct definition of neo-marxist is Stalinist. As to the question of whether this whole article is ridiculous. It's not ridiculous, it's just that this whole line of trying to define this and other terms like it are subject to so many subjective viewpoints, that it would be difficult to actually define. Who is the counterculture?. What were/are the goals of the counterculture, neo-marxists, neo-cons, democrats, republicans, humanists and evangelists?. That would depend on who you talk to. I think these questions are more suited to a line of opposing editorials, than an encyclopedia article. Even people claiming to be part of these groups would probably have a problem creating a definitive definition acceptable to all the people that proclaim they are part of the same group. For example, a hippie might define marxism as libertarianism. That's the way I would have defined it 40 years ago, now I'd call it Stalinism or national socialism.
One thing the facts bear out, the violence and death in the 1960s were appalling. I don't think it resulted in a better quality of life or more social harmony for anyone. Even the people it allegedly helped.
Yeah, this whole article is pretty bad and should probably be entirely rewritten. The bit about "conservative counterculture" is particularly laughable considering that there's a vibrant conservative counterculture centered around magazines like Vice and WYWS that has more to do with porn, gore and heroin than abstinence and clean living. I'd suggest a total rewrite.
I am confused by the never did anything bit? Do you honestly think those who never did antything were the counterculture. It was actually full of active people who did a lot, SqueakBox 02:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Even if a bunch of people do nothing but sit and take pot, it is still a cultural movement. I believe that the impact of counterculture is undeniable. Anyone who disagrees is most likely ignorant or just hates the movement and doesn't want to give it credit for being legitimate. Articles on this website site the holocaust but that does not mean that it is advocated; it is only reported. the counterculture movement is only reported here as well, not necessarily advocated. Wikipedia exist for the purpose to provide unbiased information, with as many views as are relevant to the material given. I believe all information should be as unaffected as possible, allowing each individual to decide their opinions for themselves instead of being swayed by the bias or viewpoints of another. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.238.115.98 ( talk) 22:05, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
First of all I'd like to recognize that we're dealing with some very slippery terminology here. One could ask "What is a hippy?" and "What is a communist?". Then there's the whole spectrum of hippies and yippies; those whose motivation was to challenge the culture vs. those whose motivation was to change the politics.
However we require working definitions of these terms before we can really have a productive discussion on the matter of a hippy "ideology". Many here would make the case (as has been done in this discussion) that hippies' ideals of independence and individualism show their true ideology to be more in line with libertarianism than any sort of communistic belief system. While I will grant that individualism seems to have been key to the hippie lifestyle, I'd also like to point out that equally important to this lifestyle was a sense of community, sharing of resources, and mutual respect for others "tuned in" to the "happenings". While not always 100% in line with any given school of communist thought, the Hippies rejection of the capitalist system makes them, at least to my mind, incompatible with the free-market cherishing libertarians. Furseiseki 17:51, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
This whole section should be dropped or drastically re-written... No mainstream culture to rebel against? that's not only POV, it's in the running for the most laughable POV assertion I've ever encountered in my life. Dlabtot 05:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Also in this section: I find it laughable that Indies are equated with Bohemians, and together with Punks, are asserted to be sympathetic with Communism and Socialism! While certainly some individuals in these genres are probably sympathetic to these views, I believe that they overwhelmingly lean more towards anarchism and/or libertarianism (not that I necessarily sympathize), at least in the United States (perhaps especially in the Midwest, South, Mountain states, etc.). Indeed, many are even populists, conservatives, or even fascists! The main thing they all seem to have in common is a hatred of the status quo, usually everything corporate, and usually all rich and upper middle class people (even if that's where they come from). Shanoman ( talk) 01:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I happened to be on Wikipedia binge last night reading articles about counterculture movements for some reason, when I thought, "Is there a considerable counterculture presence in America in the 2000s?" I happened upon this section of this article, but the quality of this section is sub-par, does not answer any real questions about 21st Century counterculture, and doesn't even convince me that there is a sizable counterculture element in 21st century America. Essentially, the original author seems to be trying to establish the existence of a 21st Century counterculture by pointing out drug use (which he himself declares is part of mainstream culture) and anti-war sentiment. Also, he fails to mention that anti-war and anti-Bush sentiment is fairly common in the mainstream, particularly in the entertainment industry. What made the hippie movement a counterculture movement was their rejection of social norms and capitalism in the form of communal living, gift economy, and other related concepts, not their drug use and anti-war sentiment (though those were likely the primary reasons for the popularity of the hippie movement). Also, the portion about the acceptance of Communism, Anarchist, and Socialist principles seems more like advertising one's own political belief than describing the actual beliefs of young people today. I would recommend that this section be entirely rewritten, preferably by an expert on contemporary counterculture, or that we mention more of the dominate subcultures. I haven't seen evidence (in print, on the web, or in real life) of a sizable counterculture element, though I have seen plenty evidence of subcultures. This article should at least address some of the major subcultures existing in America. That's just my two cents on the subject. Mandanthe1 ( talk) 16:45, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
This phrase redirects to this page, with no apparent explanation, and the phrase isn't even mentioned in the page at all. Is there any reason for this? ~~ Gromreaper (Talk)/ (Cont) 02:24, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
The claim that Donahue, Winfrey et al are a point of the counter-culture is unsourced as well as being demonstrably untrue and therefore the section on the media has been removed, SqueakBox 18:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Looks like vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.19.107 ( talk) 15:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Regarding the edit by 66.72.23.227 (deletion of incorrect assumption that monotheistic religions such as Christianity believe that man is inherently good): I didn't write that those religions believe that; I wrote that the idea is rooted in those religions, for example, imago viva dei, man in the image of God. I won't tamper with your edit, but I think that this is a point worth discussing. Where did the idea come from originally, that man is not just a Hobbesian beast? -- Herschelkrustofsky 00:32, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It certainly didn't come from Christianity. Romans 3:23 states, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (NIV) You have construed man created in the image of God to mean that man is inherently "good" (morally). This is inconsistent with many passages in the Old and New Testaments. -- Knardi 04:17, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Herschelkrustofsky's point is best described as the Christian idea that man is inherently valuable instead of the idea that man is inherently good. Nevertheless this idea belongs more on a sociology discussion board rather than an article about counterculture.
The article previously at this page was a mess of Lyndon LaRouche propaganda and totally irrelevant and specious nonsense. No article at all is much preferable. A new article needs to be written by someone familiar with the cultural history of the 1960s, the writings of Theodore Roszak, Herbert Marcuse etc. If no-one else does something about it, I will do so when I get time. Adam 08:14, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Note that User:AndyL's edits [1] replaced a grammatically correct formulation, with a grammatically incorrect one. The use of the subjunctive is appropriate here. -- Herschelkrustofsky 15:30, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The current, protected version of this article is vapid and semi-literate, and part of the ongoing campaign of vandalism carried out by Adam Carr, User:AndyL, and some anonymous person from the University of Houston (see Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Lyndon_LaRouche/Evidence). I am posting the deleted version of the article below. -- Herschelkrustofsky 19:46, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
A vendetta? What did Lyndon LaRouche ever do to me? AndyL 12:13, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
That's what I'd like to know. Other than advocating the American system, of course. -- Herschelkrustofsky 14:38, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Actually, I prefer the "American System" to 19th century British liberalism. In any case, the point is there is no vendetta since there's no motive on my part for revenge. Please contain your hyperbole. AndyL 16:35, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I have unprotected the page. Any edit war that was going on did not appear serious. Be good. UninvitedCompany 23:02, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
User 4.168.90.122, which part of the article do you think is non-neutral? -- Gary D 20:00, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
cultural equivalent of a political Opposition. -- POV? ~ 67.42.203.155 07:54, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Would it be alright if a new section were added on 2000s counterculture movements, and the rebeliion agaisnt what apparently a lot of skin heads feel, is an overly "liberal" society, as there is clearly an obedience-movment in this country, that almost seems like the opposite of 60s counterculture, which would make it counter-counter-culture, which is a tounge twister, to say the least, and seeing as how this all seems based on the idea that there is a great "liberal" force controlling their government, they would probably classify themselves as being counter to some force they think controls the government, so would it be fair to classify this new ultra-loyal-unquestioning group as a type of counter culture? -- 172.155.226.167 16:07, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I think something should be said about modern counter culture movements too, such as the punk, goth and emo. I also find it interesting that Catholics who consider a religious vocation are also considered counter culture. Perhaps something about modern day monastic life might be interesting as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Purrabella ( talk • contribs) 23:14, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I began to describe this phenomenon in the last paragraph of the “Russian section”. The phenomenon is that the developments in the contra-culture are absorbed by the “pro-culture” and become popularized. I provided as an example Russian band “Leningrad”. Surely there are also a lot of other examples in music, literature etc. Please extend the paragraph with your examples. Thanx for spelling-check in advance!
I'd like to add a section about the counterculture in México. Eric Zolov wrote a book on the subject, and it is one of my favorite books of all time. If I forget, would someone remind me?-- Rockero 03:43, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
This sounds quite triumphalist and I suspect it was written by a proud dutchman or perhaps by a Netherlands enthusiast; but that excerpt is definitely both unencyclopedic in its wording AND POV! Justice III 20:24, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I've made some edits in the chapter about the Netherlands' counterculture. It was indeed quite POV and contained many generalizations and misinterpretations. The importance of counterculture for the Netherlands was somewhat exaggerated. I've been quite lenient in editing, there are still questionable parts in the chapter (i.e. the part about Belgium). Daaf 14:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Although I disagree quality can only be better after debate instead of after an individual decision, I'll explain my qualms with certain sections and the chapter in general. As a whole it's very speculative, since it assumes Dutch counterculture has become mainstream. There are many sections where the connection with counterculture isn't clear. It also gives some dubious examples of Dutch counterculture, which don't really belong in an encyclopedia.
BTW I think this chapter about Dutch counterculture should have it's own article, because it is quite different in nature and impact from the American counterculture.
Now about the specific sections:
Section about Belgium: I don't see what this section has to with Dutch counterculture. There has always been rivalry between the two countries, and the Dutch have always been known to be the more cheeky/rude ones. Holland has a superiority complex and Belgium an inferiority complex. That hasn't got much (if anything) to do with Dutch counterculture though. I've also never heard about Dutch people terrorizing Antwerp, or Belgians being angry about Dutch casanovas. It's all quite speculative and it certainly hasn't had a big impact so I don't think it's relevant for this article.
The following section is especially bad: saying that American conservatives 'misinterpretate' Dutch liberalism is POV. So is the assertion that humanism is one of the basic values of Dutch society - is it not in America? And has it got anything to do with Dutch progressiveness or rudeness? Words like "fuck," "asshole" or "cunt" aren't that accepted as suggested in Dutch media. Furthermore, "asshole" and "cunt" aren't used at all, and there aren't very clear Dutch equivalents so it doesn't make a lot of sense. "The Dutch prefer to call it honesty; Dutch people do as they feel." is not encyclopedaic use of language at all. It also is POV.
"Some Christians and Muslims in the Netherlands have a minority complex, because their values are ridiculed in Dutch society." is also POV, and speculative. The mention of Czech republic and Estonia isn't useful, because those countries are secularized for very different reasons than in the Netherlands.
"Dutch people have had a strong inclination to change the world in recent decades, desiring a world with more honesty, happiness, and less suffering. Dutch news gives a lot of attention to events in foreign countries. The Dutch have been strongly anti-nationalist." This sentence gives a somewhat wrong impression, as if the Dutch are all extremely idealistic hippies.
"Pim Fortuyn was against the backwardness of the Islamic culture." This could be interpreted to imply Islamic culture is backwards.
"Fortuyn replied by saying that the sperm of Moroccans tasted the same as that of other people. This was quoted in the major newspapers." This is important how exactly? The whole section about Fortuyn doesn't make clear what it has to do with counterculture.
I hope this has cleared up the reasons for my deleting some sections, and we can agree to make some edits.
Daaf 00:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
The article on punk tribute band Gabba is marked for deletion. Their musical short film won the 2003 "Special Independent Film Award" at London's counterculture Portobello Film Festival (sources at article). You may want to vote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gabba (band) -- 62.147.37.227 13:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
How true actually is it that the counterculture originated in the USA? parallel movements in France and the UK, for example, not to mention Holland and West Germany, Scandinavia, etc, *might* have predated that movement...who is to say? thus, how factually concrete is it to say it started in the US? if it is not factually concrete then the info needs changing. thanks Peter morrell 14:34, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I have no personal stake in this, but why did you decide to delete the information provided about the tension between the Dutch and the Flemish? It did seem relevant to me, so this might qualify as vandalism. Founders4 19:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Just visited this article after an absence and noticed that entire sections had been deleted with no explanation. The funny thing is that this happened without my being aware of it, though the article is on my watch list.
Why did someone delete the section on "Counterculture in the Netherlands," for example.
Care to comment? Founders4 09:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I think I'll leave the editing to someone a little more qualified on the subject than me, but I am really wondering about the accuracy of the last paragraph. Can someone find a source, or should it be removed? Minidoxigirli 14:58, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
"If it were possible to form a state or an army exclusively of homosexuals, these men would direct all their emulations toward honors, and going into battle with such a spirit would, even if their numbers were small, conquer the entire world." -- Plato, The Banquet
"They, the homosexuals, are among the best among the boys and young men because they are the most valiant of them. This is strikingly demonstrated by the fact that, after growing up, they - and they alone - are fit for ruling the state." -- Plato, The Banquet
Plato taught Aristotle, who taught Alexander the Great. Of course we disagree with Plato that these are anything but human turds trying to make decisions for the other 90% of us who are normal people, so what Plato said is exactly what we are rebelling against. If you'd like to see more, much more, just reply. -- CHAV
Here is the difference between the Democrat and Republican parties. Bot hparties are in favor of war and homosexuality. But Democrats put mnore of an emphasis on pushing homosexuality first, war second. Republicans have an emphasis on war first, but they are closet homosexuals. The counterculture is not a mirror of this, it is something totally different. The popular revolution against these human turds in our government, these gay hawks,is alive and well! See ya! --CHAV
"However, the fastest-growing counterculture in the US today would seem to be one combining elements of both of these, into the "establishment"'s absolute worst nightmare: a youth movement that is at once anti-war AND anti-gay marriage. This would indeed be a 'counterculture' in the truest sense, its very existence representing the gravest threat to those segments who are both pro-war and pro-gay, since the Yippies in the era of LBJ and J. Edgar Hoover."
That section is just silly. "Many" is such a pejorative term. Also, "studies" should be linked to if they're going to be referenced. minidoxigirli- talk-- contribs 08:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I just spent some time trying to clean up this article with regard to formatting, citations and internal links, but I think there is a larger problem with the way in which the section is written. It reads like a exam essay with a strong personal view. In fact, I suspect the contributor just pasted the entire text in and clicked "save", which would account for all of the poor formatting and lack of links and attributions. I also strongly suspect that there is a degree of bias from some editors with the profound amount of "ciatation needed" tags--particularly in the last paragraph. This topic is not my area of expertise, but rather one that I am somewhat familiar with, so I would look to an expert to concisely define the LGBT lifestyle as a valid historical countercultural movement. I believe it is and would be well worth reading. grit 01 March 07
On the first paraphrasing of Kaiser:
"But homosexuality ... was not a significant movement in itself.[3]"
May suggest that the writer believes or agrees with the notion of homosexuality as a "movement" i.e. trend or campaign? elle 21:35, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
"Imperialist, evangelical and oppressive"? An extreme oversimplification with respect to "evangelical" (are all those who favor current U.S. foreign policy evangelical), "imperialist" and "oppressive"...give me a break. I intend to delete this section. Any comments? Apostle12 03:12, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
This article drones on about the sixties kids,how awesome they are and how much good they did. Really.Sorry,I didnt realize how being a lazy dumbass who smokes pot and never works qualifys as a "social movement".Whatever you say I guess.C'mon.Lets not pretend these people are "intellectuals" who changed the way we view the world.There not much different then your average street criminal degenerate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.22.84.93 ( talk) 03:55, 15 April 2007 (UTC).
Hippies were merely the tools of affluent, marxist indoctrinated people seeking power. Power that they still hold. It occurred to me the other day?. Why aren't liberals..... liberal?. It's because they never were, although the people they used were. It's impossible to write about this without some bias. Libertarian ideals were more in line with what the hippies thought, the people that pulled the strings were neo-marxists pretending to embrace dialectical idealism, but actually they were mostly pretending to embrace marxism too. Power was the goal to be achieved, and having achieved that power, they have instituted a police state that is more invasive than any 1950s nightmare including penalties for things down to seat belt traffic citations and very high sin taxes. That is, unless you are one of the very finely defined "oppressed". My comments are biased, but so is the article in question. I think you could also examine the definition of neo-marxism in the context of american life. The correct definition of neo-marxist is Stalinist. As to the question of whether this whole article is ridiculous. It's not ridiculous, it's just that this whole line of trying to define this and other terms like it are subject to so many subjective viewpoints, that it would be difficult to actually define. Who is the counterculture?. What were/are the goals of the counterculture, neo-marxists, neo-cons, democrats, republicans, humanists and evangelists?. That would depend on who you talk to. I think these questions are more suited to a line of opposing editorials, than an encyclopedia article. Even people claiming to be part of these groups would probably have a problem creating a definitive definition acceptable to all the people that proclaim they are part of the same group. For example, a hippie might define marxism as libertarianism. That's the way I would have defined it 40 years ago, now I'd call it Stalinism or national socialism.
One thing the facts bear out, the violence and death in the 1960s were appalling. I don't think it resulted in a better quality of life or more social harmony for anyone. Even the people it allegedly helped.
Yeah, this whole article is pretty bad and should probably be entirely rewritten. The bit about "conservative counterculture" is particularly laughable considering that there's a vibrant conservative counterculture centered around magazines like Vice and WYWS that has more to do with porn, gore and heroin than abstinence and clean living. I'd suggest a total rewrite.
I am confused by the never did anything bit? Do you honestly think those who never did antything were the counterculture. It was actually full of active people who did a lot, SqueakBox 02:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Even if a bunch of people do nothing but sit and take pot, it is still a cultural movement. I believe that the impact of counterculture is undeniable. Anyone who disagrees is most likely ignorant or just hates the movement and doesn't want to give it credit for being legitimate. Articles on this website site the holocaust but that does not mean that it is advocated; it is only reported. the counterculture movement is only reported here as well, not necessarily advocated. Wikipedia exist for the purpose to provide unbiased information, with as many views as are relevant to the material given. I believe all information should be as unaffected as possible, allowing each individual to decide their opinions for themselves instead of being swayed by the bias or viewpoints of another. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.238.115.98 ( talk) 22:05, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
First of all I'd like to recognize that we're dealing with some very slippery terminology here. One could ask "What is a hippy?" and "What is a communist?". Then there's the whole spectrum of hippies and yippies; those whose motivation was to challenge the culture vs. those whose motivation was to change the politics.
However we require working definitions of these terms before we can really have a productive discussion on the matter of a hippy "ideology". Many here would make the case (as has been done in this discussion) that hippies' ideals of independence and individualism show their true ideology to be more in line with libertarianism than any sort of communistic belief system. While I will grant that individualism seems to have been key to the hippie lifestyle, I'd also like to point out that equally important to this lifestyle was a sense of community, sharing of resources, and mutual respect for others "tuned in" to the "happenings". While not always 100% in line with any given school of communist thought, the Hippies rejection of the capitalist system makes them, at least to my mind, incompatible with the free-market cherishing libertarians. Furseiseki 17:51, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
This whole section should be dropped or drastically re-written... No mainstream culture to rebel against? that's not only POV, it's in the running for the most laughable POV assertion I've ever encountered in my life. Dlabtot 05:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Also in this section: I find it laughable that Indies are equated with Bohemians, and together with Punks, are asserted to be sympathetic with Communism and Socialism! While certainly some individuals in these genres are probably sympathetic to these views, I believe that they overwhelmingly lean more towards anarchism and/or libertarianism (not that I necessarily sympathize), at least in the United States (perhaps especially in the Midwest, South, Mountain states, etc.). Indeed, many are even populists, conservatives, or even fascists! The main thing they all seem to have in common is a hatred of the status quo, usually everything corporate, and usually all rich and upper middle class people (even if that's where they come from). Shanoman ( talk) 01:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I happened to be on Wikipedia binge last night reading articles about counterculture movements for some reason, when I thought, "Is there a considerable counterculture presence in America in the 2000s?" I happened upon this section of this article, but the quality of this section is sub-par, does not answer any real questions about 21st Century counterculture, and doesn't even convince me that there is a sizable counterculture element in 21st century America. Essentially, the original author seems to be trying to establish the existence of a 21st Century counterculture by pointing out drug use (which he himself declares is part of mainstream culture) and anti-war sentiment. Also, he fails to mention that anti-war and anti-Bush sentiment is fairly common in the mainstream, particularly in the entertainment industry. What made the hippie movement a counterculture movement was their rejection of social norms and capitalism in the form of communal living, gift economy, and other related concepts, not their drug use and anti-war sentiment (though those were likely the primary reasons for the popularity of the hippie movement). Also, the portion about the acceptance of Communism, Anarchist, and Socialist principles seems more like advertising one's own political belief than describing the actual beliefs of young people today. I would recommend that this section be entirely rewritten, preferably by an expert on contemporary counterculture, or that we mention more of the dominate subcultures. I haven't seen evidence (in print, on the web, or in real life) of a sizable counterculture element, though I have seen plenty evidence of subcultures. This article should at least address some of the major subcultures existing in America. That's just my two cents on the subject. Mandanthe1 ( talk) 16:45, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
This phrase redirects to this page, with no apparent explanation, and the phrase isn't even mentioned in the page at all. Is there any reason for this? ~~ Gromreaper (Talk)/ (Cont) 02:24, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
The claim that Donahue, Winfrey et al are a point of the counter-culture is unsourced as well as being demonstrably untrue and therefore the section on the media has been removed, SqueakBox 18:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Looks like vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.19.107 ( talk) 15:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
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