This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
just out of curiosity... where is the page debating the factuality of Pol Pot's killings or the page defending milosivic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.140.106.182 ( talk) 01:48, 26 April 2005 (UTC)
The current construction of that sentence, "It is noted for its highly critical coverage of [..], its extensive reporting of [...] and the use of junk science" makes it unclear whether they report on junk science or utilize it. Can someone clarify this? I am going to remove it until it is clarified.-- Tedpennings 4 July 2005 11:31 (UTC)
This recently added material criticism section appears to have been the effort of one editor, David Cohen, to inject his personal disapproval of CounterPunch by means of a pseudo-neutral "Criticism" section that offered a cherry-picked selection of quotes from right-wing critics. I have removed it, consolidating the names of the critics and types of complaints they make in the body of the article, where this material belongs. If readers are interested in the particulars of the given critiques, they can follow up the external links. -- Viajero | Talk 11:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I am neither a "devoted reader" nor an "ardent defender" of CounterPunch; I only claim familiarity with it. Also, you don't have to quote NPOV gospel to me; I have been contributing to Wikipedia since 2003 and I am intimately aware of how NPOV works.
If I were to scour the Internet, I could probably come up with quotes which argue that CP is:
etc etc etc etc
Now, if you think it would be a service to our readers to flood this article with all of these POVs, turning it into a vast, ungainly collection of back-and-forth quotes, then you have no conception of what it means to create an encyclopedia article. This is not a repository for undigested primary materials; we are supposed to be creating useful, reader-friendly syntheses of information and viewpoints. If there exists a significant wedge of public opinion that CounterPoint lends itself to being a forum for anti-Semitic ideas, then by all means this should be included in this article, backed up by citations indicating that observers have determined that this is a systematic problem, either with the editors themselves or the writers they publish.
In the meantime, dumping a bunch of quotes which happen to suit your POV in this article and hiding behind Wikipedia NPOV philosphy for justification is unacceptable. Viajero | Talk 10:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed this confusing sentence:
While offering much more material not published in the newsletter, the latter continues to publish commentaries by St. Clair and Cockburn that are not published on the web.
Please rewrite it if it is readded to the site. Travb ( talk) 06:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The following has been removed from this wikipage:
==Criticism==
Plaut takes issue with several CounterPunch articles:
In contrast to such allegations, CounterPunch has also published articles such as David Vest's criticism of Billy Graham's remarks about Jews [7] after White House tapes revealed Graham expressing "the rankest, crudest, most heart-sickening anti-Semitism" when counseling President Nixon; and Michael Neumann's essay tracing the history of the U.S.-Israel relationship and debunking the myth that Jews control America. [8] (Although Neumann argues that Jews have power in Hollywood and much influence in American political life, and then urges Americans to resist "Jewish tribalism" and act to "hurt Israel" by declaring it a rogue nation and severing all military, financial and diplomatic ties).
signed: Travb ( talk) 07:01-07:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Are both broken. Travb ( talk) 02:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
The article The Case for Israel describes Counterpunch as "allegedly anti-Semitic":
Far-left (and allegedly anti-Semitic) newsletter publication, Counterpunch published The Case Against Israel, a response to The Case for Israel[3] by Michael Neumann, a professor of philosophy at Trent University. The response-book was not as commercially succesful as the original.
Is this true? There is no citation in that article for the claim. -- 64.230.120.63 19:35, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
First off whoever you are that keeps insisting on putting in the extended paragraph after the anti-semitism allegations, it is you who is pov pushing, not me. The accusations of antisemitism are already there so your attempts to add more serves as nothing more than an extremely transparent attempt to biased the article against counterpunch. Oh, and by the I quotes like "anti-semitic, neo-nazi Rascists" should bar you from any further serious commentary on this article. This is not a place to work your own grievances against counterpunch, unless you have some factual information to contribute to this article, you are out of line in saying I should be banned from this article. I am registered user and have been for longer than you and if anything your the one who should be banned from this article, not me. annoynmous 20:24, 3 February 2007 (UTC) —The preceding comment signed as by annoynmous ( talk • contribs) was actually added by 66.227.137.56 ( talk • contribs) -
Due to a recent revert war I've protected this page. The disputing parties should come to some agreement on acceptable text. - Will Beback · † · 07:08, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Here is my "discussion" of it: The paragraph that I inserted was all about direct quotations from articles that were published in Counterpunch, not simply a point about Atzmon - and the even more explicit anti-semite Israel Shamir, whose Nazi politics are by now undeniable, and who has also contributed articles to Counterpunch. This is not "defamation" but simple documentable FACTS. So too is the fact that Counterpunch's newsletter chose to publish an article in support of holocaust denier Ernest Zundel by Alan Cabal which defends not merely Zundel's "free speech" but his views themselves (which Cabal has also done on many other websites). I feel that the comments of "annoynmous" as well as the constant "reverts" to my easily documentable quotes reveal his/her own PRO-Counterpunch bias and desire to silence any criticism of the journal (most evident in the call to "ban" me). I will in future confine my criticisms of this editor to the discussion page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.198.231 ( talk) 02:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Anonynmous is knowingly LYING about what I have posted: I mentioned the title of the pro-Zundel article and its author, as well as the fact that it appeared only in Counterpunch's print edition, not online (hence "no links"). But Zundel's wife has helpfully reposted the entire article, along with her apprecation of counterpunch for publishing it, on her Fascist website the Zundelsite: http://zgrams.zundelsite.org/pipermail/zgrams/2004-March/000779.html.
And of course, I quoted extensively from several Atzmon Counterpunch articles which are also available on Atzmon's website. Is "annoynmous" really claiming that I just made this all up? So an apology to me for all of his/her libels is long overdue. If it does not appear, it may well be appropriate to remove "annoynmous"'s editing privileges. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.198.231 ( talk) 01:34, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, then, I would like to see some references made to the Cabal article, in addition to the Atzmon/Shamir references. These are all crucial as evidence for why many people who oppose anti-Jewish racism have made accusations against Counterpunch. I will hold off on posting if an acceptable compromise version is written.
By the way, it is certainly NOT true that Shamir has "never plainly endorsed holocaust denial or anti-semitism"; he most certainly HAS done so on a great many occasions - most recently endorsing the Tehran conference - and there is nothing "ambigious" about this, as there is -occasionally- about Atzmon. This is a "certain fact" as you should know if you had done the most minimal research on this utterly hideous being. But it is not so crucial to me that all of these examples be spelled out in the article itself; only that there be some indication that there is some solid basis for suspicion about Counterpunch's attitude towards anti-Jewish racism, as opposed to their relentless opposition towards all other forms of discrimination. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.198.231 ( talk) 21:52, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Roland, here's a representative example of some of Alan Cabal's recent comments (see in particular the charming conclusion to the first paragraph):
This completely unedited comment is taken from the following exchange on a blog to which Cabal regularly contributes:
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.blogspot.com/2006/09/israel-is-fake-regime-that-explains.html
Cabal certainly does not deny writing this - and there is similarly vile anti-JEWISH, not "anti-zionist" invective written by him on other posts on both the above and other blogs. It would take me many hours to locate them all. The more central question here is why is this blatantly genocidal fascist racist pig STILL published on Counterpunch (2 articles within the past month in fact)? Is it not relevant that they find such a "person" worthy of publication on their site and on their pages, albeit not (recently) on the topics above? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.198.231 ( talk) 01:46, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Oh, it's "just my opinion" now that Alan Cabal is a Nazi holocaust denier, is it? I just posted a DIRECT QUOTE UNDER HIS NAME (which on the site is linked to his blog which has his email). Here it is once again:
"I'd rather harvest Zionist trolls for organs, myself. We've already paid for the parts. An independent Jewish state is a great idea, y'all should try it sometime. See if you can actually support yourselves without the welfare you get from America (who saved your worthless asses) and Germany (who you framed and defamed for a crime they should commit right now).
I$rael can't stand on it's own feet, because the Jews as a group really have no talent for anything but plagiarism. Your century is OVER."
"FRAMED AND DEFAMED FOR A CRIME THEY SHOULD COMMIT RIGHT NOW"? Does this count as racism and a call for a genocide in YOUR book, nony dearest? It does in that of any reasonably sentinent individual. I'm sure you would agree were it directed against any other minority group. Why is that you hard-left Counterpunch types (and I don't mean genuinely democratic socialists) are so bleeding oblivious to the continued existence of anti-semitism -or more accurately, Jew-hatred - especially when it occurs "on the left"? How much more blatant would it need to be? Is anything short of physical proof of a man personally tossing Jews into a gas chamber (which again, Cabal, like his hero Zundel denies ever occured) not evidence of anti-semitism or nazi apologias in your view? Are you ever willing to admit that I just might know what I'm talking about?????????????????????
I DESPISE RACIST NAZI VERMIN such as Cabal and Zundel and I will not "settle down" while their agenda is (in your case, probably unintentionally) whitewashed! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.122.88.208 ( talk) 20:11, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I presented the full context of Cabal's blog comments by posting the URL of the entire exchange in which they appeared (certainly, it would have taken far too much space to have simply cut and paste it all here). There is ABSOLUTELY NO circumstance in which they would be morally acceptable or uttered by anyone other than a degenerate genocidal racist/fascist pig. The fact that you can state otherwise is indicative once again that you simply do not care about - let alone oppose - any level of racism or hatred directed against Jews. You and Counterpunch more generally would not respond in this way were any other ethnic/racial/religious minority group so targeted. Sadly, it's beginning to appear that it was my apology to you that "jumped the gun" rather than my original comments. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.127 ( talk) 19:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
When unlocked, add article to Alternative media (U.S. political left) category. -- Kitrus 06:13, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I just deleted some vandalism ... had "Stalinist racist" right on the first paragraph Pendolatrice 14:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the Wall Street Journal- Opinion Journal related comment from the criticism section. It wasnt a criticism it was just name calling and completely irrevelent. and give citations for the holocaust denier piece or else delete it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.82.214.200 ( talk) 15:08, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I've removed a sentence about alleged "holocaust deniers" which is potentially libelous and isn't supported by any reliable sources. Please don't re-add it without providing a source. Spacevalid 18:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, Bob, for pulling up those references. As we see, once again, "anonynmous", a steadfast apologist for anti-Jewish racism on "the left" -(see the earlier parts of this discussion page where he refused to acknowledge, let alone condemn, Alan Cabal's documented calls for genocide against Jews) is once again attempting to vandalize this article. He has in the past even attempted to contact Cockburn, St. Clair and Cabal directly and get them to write the article themselves - that apparently is his idea of scholarly objectivity. Obviously, he worships Counterpunch and that is his right, but he does not have the right to seek to censor well-documented evidence that portrays his idols in a less than fully favorable light, when that evidence is as clear and irrefutable as it is. Of course, that is the way that Leninist-Stalinist regimes in power have always operated, seeking to silence -when they are not simply killing - their opposition. Anonymous needs to be reminded that Wikipedia is not Pravda, Gramma etc. where only officialy sanctioned views get printed. It is obvious - yet again!- that anonynmous refuses to participate in good faith and clear that he deserves another suspension (perhaps a permanent one) of his editing priviledges. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Antifascist ( talk • contribs) 00:05, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Re: McGown and Cabal: as annoynmous DOES know, Alan Cabal has EMPHATICALLY expressed his agreement with Zundel's views on the Nazi holocaust - the evidence for this was presented earlier on this very discussion page. While in the 2004 Counterpunch print article, Cabal may have appeared to have merely endorsed Zundel's right to free speech (something I agree with by the way), in the years since then he has made clear his agreement with the holocaust denial perspective, and even openly called for genocide of Jews (again the evidence is above on this page). Furthermore, although not as vitriolic in his criticisms, McGowan is also on record -and he in no way denies this! - as doubting that 6 million Jews were killed. See this quite recent article here: http://rense.com/general75/viv.htm -as you can see this article was enthusiastically linked to on the website of the Institute for Historical Review, the world's leading pro-Nazi holocaust denial organzation: http://www.ihr.org/rounduparchive/0703.shtml, as well as by the loathsome Nazi-style racist Israel Shamir ( an open ally of the National Alliance, British National Party and similar fascist groups) to his yahoo group : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shamireaders/message/917 which can be linked to from the official Israel Shamir website: http://www.israelshamir.net/. As you will see, Shamir favorably contrasts McGowan's approach to that of the Palestinian Azmi Bishara who as a genuine anti-racist does not doubt that 6 million Jews among many millions of others were specifically targeted by the Nazis and perished in the war.
Of course, it is true that neither Cabal nor McGowan's most loathsome pieces were published by Counterpunch (even Annon admits that Shamir is anti-Jewish)but it is interesting that they are considered acceptable contributors on related subjects and themes. Would a diehard white supremacist (which in fact, many of McGowan's closest fans such as "Curt Maynard/Chris Womack" of PC Apostate truly are) be published in Counterpunch if they wrote on the supposed evils of Affirmative Action even if they -this time- avoided the use of racial slurs? It is this widely perceived "softness on anti-semitism" (or more precisely, on anti-JUDAISM) that has alarmed some critics of Counterpunch and that makes it a relevant theme for this article. As I have demonstrated, I have plenty of documented sources and evidence at my command, and the only reason I can see for anyone to challenge them is because of a fairly obvious pro-Counterpunch bias and unwillingness to see it portrayed in a less than euphorically positive light. It is also clear that merely describing Zundel as an "extremist" is insufficient is making the point. He is a utterly GENOCIDAL racist, author of the Hitler we loved and why, and ally of white supremaicst groups, even if it is true that he is entitled to free speech on the Nazi holocaust, provided that he does not put his views into ACTION! (antifascist).
Oh, and by the way, Anonymous was the first to introduce libels and slurs by labeling me - on the basis of absolutely NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER - a 'zionist hoodlum" which he did both on this page and in the editing summaries. I suggest that HE be banned from editing till that loathsome libel is withdrawn. Clearly, he regards all serious opponents of anti-Jewish racism (as well as racism of all types) as ipso facto "zionists', which in fact reveals something quite ugly about his own racial/ethic/religious attitudes. There are plenty of ANTI-Zionists who feel the way that I do about Cabal, Shamir, Atzmon and McGowan, the Jews against Zionism foremost among them. (antifascist). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Antifascist ( talk • contribs) 20:54-21:04, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, there's just no pleasing some people, it seems! I offered a quite genuine heartfelt apology and anonynmous continues to hold a grudge, misstate events and make additional excuses for holocaust deniers. McGowan's article is BY DEFINITION a piece of holocuast denial, which is hardly surprising given the views of his close friends and organizational associates Paul Eisen and Israel Shamir. And no, there are NO "legitimate questions that can be asked" unless one is like Zundel and McGowan a pro-Hitler racist who seeks to minimize Nazi atrocities. Blackwell was forced to remove some of her materials on McGowan because that great believer in free speech threatened to sue her for libel (and as we all know, British libel laws are far more punitive than those of the U.S). In any event, McGowan's efforts are far from limited to criticizing Elie Wiesel, as you put it. And, finally, you did not initially call me a mere "zionist" but a "zionist hoodlum" which is a far more pejorative term than "lacky". I will cease responding to you if you stop reverting the article as it now stands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Antifascist ( talk • contribs) 16:14, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
annonynmous has once again rejected the olive brach I offered by reverting the edits re: cabal, mcgowan and zundel - in fact, McGowan wasn't even specifically mentioned in the edit that he vandalized but he continues to whitewash the viewpoint of this loathsome racist nonetheless. McGowan -and Cabal's - views go well beyond Norman Finkelstein's and Noam Chomsky's as I and others have documented time and time again. They do not merely defend Zundel's "freedom of Speech". They specifically legitimize his VIEWS. It is certainly appropriate to use terms like "anti-Jewish" in an encyclopedia when they are warranted, just as it would be to label George Wallace and Lester Maddox as "anti-black" or more generally as "racists". i Will not immediately revert his vandalism, but will give others a chance to edit this appropriately. As it stands now, however, this is a completely inaccurate representation of the "criticisms" that have been made. (antifascist). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Antifascist ( talk • contribs) 02:13, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
"Ernst believes that Jewish groups have wanted him jailed for promoting views that the Jewish-Zionist lobby considers harmful to its interests.Ernst Zuendel is neither a monster nor a heretic. He is a man with strong convictions and the courage to express them. He views himself not as a Holocaust "denier," but rather as a Holocaust revisionist....Those who would incarcerate revisionists like Ernst Zuendel and hold them, without bail, for years on end to drain them of their resources and to silence them as "Prisoners of Zion" could well be labeled as "justice deniers.""
Clearly, no actual evidence would ever really convince annoynmous of the reality of McGowan's and Cabal's vehemently anti-Jewish and pro-Nazi views, as that evidence is irrefutable and has already been presented many times. That is why annon says "it can't be a comment page on some (in fact,not so obscure) blog" because he KNOWS that Cabal DID in fact express those views on such a blog, has never denied them, and is regarded by virtually everyone sane as an anti-Jewish holocaust denying racist. But annon will not yield one inch -come what may - in his quest to have the article appear exactly the way he would write it, i.e. one that reflects his own ideological fantasies, rather than well-documented EVIDENCE. Hence his incessent vandalism and reverts. I think Wiki editors should be contacted re: his POV editing violations (outside observer). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.68.164.223 ( talk) 17:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I do not think the article should say that Cabal or McGowan are anti-Jewish racists. But I think they do more than defend Zundel's freedom of speech. This is precisely why they are promoted by neo-nazi sites, and they have never (to my knowledge) published anything disassociating themselves from the neo-nazi sites which publish them. First, Cabal. Look at what they have written. According to the Wyman Inst:
in the February 1-15 , 2004 edition of the political newsletter CounterPunch... Cabal described Zundel as “the most widely recognized figure in the growing number of historians, both amateur and academic, questioning the veracity of orthodox accounts of the events which took place in the Nazi concentration camps during World War II ... The ‘Holocaust Industry’, as Norman Finkelstein dubbed it, behaves in every way like a fanatical cult. The persecution of Ernst Zundel has been and continues to be both relentless and utterly ruthless.” Cabal characterized the deportation proceedings against Zundel as “an affront to justice and public decency that goes far beyond anything that Mr. Zundel has to say.” [16] (Same text according to Zundelsite [17])
Cabal also says "The man [Zundel] may hold provocative views, but he is a committed pacifist. He is guilty only of expressing an unpopular viewpoint." (zundelsite ibid) SO, Cabal says Zundel is guilty only of being unpopular. I personally do not support the prosecution of Holocaust deniers, but to reduce their views simply to "provocative" and "unpopular" views is to legitimise them.
Further, Cabal's description of "Ernst" (as he always calls him) as this cuddly old pacifist painter is to defend him, the man, not just his free speech.
Second, McGowan. His association with Shamir is clear: Shamir calls him "our friend". [18] McGowan also does more than defend the free speech of Zundel. The facts about the Holocaust that Zundel denies, he calls "facts" (in scare quotes - an act of denial). His interview provides Zundel with a voice to express his views.
McGowan also defends Zundel the man, not just his freedom of speech. He writes:
An admirer once described Ernst Zuendel as "an outgoing, good-humored man who is blessed with a rare combination of unflagging optimism and practical ability. He maintains this infectious spirit even under very trying conditions. He is an unusually alert and sensitive individual with a keen understanding of human nature. He inspires confidence, loyalty and affection." On December 7, 2006 I witnessed his trial in Mannheim and found this description to be uncannily accurate.
This "admirer", as far as I can tell, is the neo-nazi Revisionists.com website. [19] Like Cabal, McGowan portrays Zundel as a sweet, pacifist painter. The final para of McG's article is most distasteful:
He is a man with strong convictions and the courage to express them. He views himself not as a Holocaust "denier," but rather as a Holocaust revisionist... Those who would incarcerate revisionists like Ernst Zuendel and hold them, without bail, for years on end to drain them of their resources and to silence them as "Prisoners of Zion" could well be labeled as "justice deniers."
This phrase "deniers of justice" is horrific moral equivalence: Zundel's life is made equivelant to those of the millions of Nazi victims. The phrase "Prisoners of Zion" is rather dodgy, to say the least. BobFromBrockley 12:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
My personal preference is neither "defending the free speech" (far too week - would not cause much controversy) nor "sought to legitimize" (I believe this is true - but is perhaps too strong) but rather the more neutral and simple "defended". Also, what happened to the footnote on McGowan? BobFromBrockley 17:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Anon continues his willful ignorance in the service of whitewashing "leftist" holocaust deniers; McGowan certainly DOES consider Israel Shamir a close friend - indeed, it was insistence on putting him on the board of directors of McGowan's organization Deir Yassin Remembered that led many other anti-zionists, -both Jewish and Palestinian - to resign from the organization. One prominent example is Jeff Halper. This has all been well-covered in the anti-zionist blogosphere, particularly in the U.K on such sites as Sue Blackwell's, Jews San Frontieres and others. McGowan and his co-director Paul Eisen enthusiastically endorse both Zundel and Shamir's vile racist writings about Judaism and Jews and are close political allies of them. Roland Rance can certainly confirm all of this, as can anyone else who has actually followed these controversies up close. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.199.143 ( talk) 02:27, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I have simply added one word to this compromise as a point of clarification. Althogh far from perfect, I am now prepared to accept this existing version and hope that we can all go forward without any new reverts. (antifascist). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Antifascist ( talk • contribs) 20:41, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
This citation appears to be purely a self-written ad on the website which is used to provide reference. A more appropriate citation is needed, I will leave the current cite for now, but will also add a cite needed tag. Tiggerjay 03:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
The link connected to Ron Jacobs in this article is incorrect. The Ron Jacobs referred to here is an activist and the author of The Way the Wind Blew:A History of the Weather Underground (Verso, 1997) and Short Order Frame Up (Mainstay 2007). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.115.194.132 ( talk) 19:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Have restored criticism wording to previous state, as this was consensus reached after long discussion here, involving number of editors - see above. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 17:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
just out of curiosity... where is the page debating the factuality of Pol Pot's killings or the page defending milosivic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.140.106.182 ( talk) 01:48, 26 April 2005 (UTC)
The current construction of that sentence, "It is noted for its highly critical coverage of [..], its extensive reporting of [...] and the use of junk science" makes it unclear whether they report on junk science or utilize it. Can someone clarify this? I am going to remove it until it is clarified.-- Tedpennings 4 July 2005 11:31 (UTC)
This recently added material criticism section appears to have been the effort of one editor, David Cohen, to inject his personal disapproval of CounterPunch by means of a pseudo-neutral "Criticism" section that offered a cherry-picked selection of quotes from right-wing critics. I have removed it, consolidating the names of the critics and types of complaints they make in the body of the article, where this material belongs. If readers are interested in the particulars of the given critiques, they can follow up the external links. -- Viajero | Talk 11:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I am neither a "devoted reader" nor an "ardent defender" of CounterPunch; I only claim familiarity with it. Also, you don't have to quote NPOV gospel to me; I have been contributing to Wikipedia since 2003 and I am intimately aware of how NPOV works.
If I were to scour the Internet, I could probably come up with quotes which argue that CP is:
etc etc etc etc
Now, if you think it would be a service to our readers to flood this article with all of these POVs, turning it into a vast, ungainly collection of back-and-forth quotes, then you have no conception of what it means to create an encyclopedia article. This is not a repository for undigested primary materials; we are supposed to be creating useful, reader-friendly syntheses of information and viewpoints. If there exists a significant wedge of public opinion that CounterPoint lends itself to being a forum for anti-Semitic ideas, then by all means this should be included in this article, backed up by citations indicating that observers have determined that this is a systematic problem, either with the editors themselves or the writers they publish.
In the meantime, dumping a bunch of quotes which happen to suit your POV in this article and hiding behind Wikipedia NPOV philosphy for justification is unacceptable. Viajero | Talk 10:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed this confusing sentence:
While offering much more material not published in the newsletter, the latter continues to publish commentaries by St. Clair and Cockburn that are not published on the web.
Please rewrite it if it is readded to the site. Travb ( talk) 06:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The following has been removed from this wikipage:
==Criticism==
Plaut takes issue with several CounterPunch articles:
In contrast to such allegations, CounterPunch has also published articles such as David Vest's criticism of Billy Graham's remarks about Jews [7] after White House tapes revealed Graham expressing "the rankest, crudest, most heart-sickening anti-Semitism" when counseling President Nixon; and Michael Neumann's essay tracing the history of the U.S.-Israel relationship and debunking the myth that Jews control America. [8] (Although Neumann argues that Jews have power in Hollywood and much influence in American political life, and then urges Americans to resist "Jewish tribalism" and act to "hurt Israel" by declaring it a rogue nation and severing all military, financial and diplomatic ties).
signed: Travb ( talk) 07:01-07:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Are both broken. Travb ( talk) 02:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
The article The Case for Israel describes Counterpunch as "allegedly anti-Semitic":
Far-left (and allegedly anti-Semitic) newsletter publication, Counterpunch published The Case Against Israel, a response to The Case for Israel[3] by Michael Neumann, a professor of philosophy at Trent University. The response-book was not as commercially succesful as the original.
Is this true? There is no citation in that article for the claim. -- 64.230.120.63 19:35, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
First off whoever you are that keeps insisting on putting in the extended paragraph after the anti-semitism allegations, it is you who is pov pushing, not me. The accusations of antisemitism are already there so your attempts to add more serves as nothing more than an extremely transparent attempt to biased the article against counterpunch. Oh, and by the I quotes like "anti-semitic, neo-nazi Rascists" should bar you from any further serious commentary on this article. This is not a place to work your own grievances against counterpunch, unless you have some factual information to contribute to this article, you are out of line in saying I should be banned from this article. I am registered user and have been for longer than you and if anything your the one who should be banned from this article, not me. annoynmous 20:24, 3 February 2007 (UTC) —The preceding comment signed as by annoynmous ( talk • contribs) was actually added by 66.227.137.56 ( talk • contribs) -
Due to a recent revert war I've protected this page. The disputing parties should come to some agreement on acceptable text. - Will Beback · † · 07:08, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Here is my "discussion" of it: The paragraph that I inserted was all about direct quotations from articles that were published in Counterpunch, not simply a point about Atzmon - and the even more explicit anti-semite Israel Shamir, whose Nazi politics are by now undeniable, and who has also contributed articles to Counterpunch. This is not "defamation" but simple documentable FACTS. So too is the fact that Counterpunch's newsletter chose to publish an article in support of holocaust denier Ernest Zundel by Alan Cabal which defends not merely Zundel's "free speech" but his views themselves (which Cabal has also done on many other websites). I feel that the comments of "annoynmous" as well as the constant "reverts" to my easily documentable quotes reveal his/her own PRO-Counterpunch bias and desire to silence any criticism of the journal (most evident in the call to "ban" me). I will in future confine my criticisms of this editor to the discussion page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.198.231 ( talk) 02:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Anonynmous is knowingly LYING about what I have posted: I mentioned the title of the pro-Zundel article and its author, as well as the fact that it appeared only in Counterpunch's print edition, not online (hence "no links"). But Zundel's wife has helpfully reposted the entire article, along with her apprecation of counterpunch for publishing it, on her Fascist website the Zundelsite: http://zgrams.zundelsite.org/pipermail/zgrams/2004-March/000779.html.
And of course, I quoted extensively from several Atzmon Counterpunch articles which are also available on Atzmon's website. Is "annoynmous" really claiming that I just made this all up? So an apology to me for all of his/her libels is long overdue. If it does not appear, it may well be appropriate to remove "annoynmous"'s editing privileges. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.198.231 ( talk) 01:34, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, then, I would like to see some references made to the Cabal article, in addition to the Atzmon/Shamir references. These are all crucial as evidence for why many people who oppose anti-Jewish racism have made accusations against Counterpunch. I will hold off on posting if an acceptable compromise version is written.
By the way, it is certainly NOT true that Shamir has "never plainly endorsed holocaust denial or anti-semitism"; he most certainly HAS done so on a great many occasions - most recently endorsing the Tehran conference - and there is nothing "ambigious" about this, as there is -occasionally- about Atzmon. This is a "certain fact" as you should know if you had done the most minimal research on this utterly hideous being. But it is not so crucial to me that all of these examples be spelled out in the article itself; only that there be some indication that there is some solid basis for suspicion about Counterpunch's attitude towards anti-Jewish racism, as opposed to their relentless opposition towards all other forms of discrimination. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.198.231 ( talk) 21:52, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Roland, here's a representative example of some of Alan Cabal's recent comments (see in particular the charming conclusion to the first paragraph):
This completely unedited comment is taken from the following exchange on a blog to which Cabal regularly contributes:
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.blogspot.com/2006/09/israel-is-fake-regime-that-explains.html
Cabal certainly does not deny writing this - and there is similarly vile anti-JEWISH, not "anti-zionist" invective written by him on other posts on both the above and other blogs. It would take me many hours to locate them all. The more central question here is why is this blatantly genocidal fascist racist pig STILL published on Counterpunch (2 articles within the past month in fact)? Is it not relevant that they find such a "person" worthy of publication on their site and on their pages, albeit not (recently) on the topics above? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.198.231 ( talk) 01:46, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Oh, it's "just my opinion" now that Alan Cabal is a Nazi holocaust denier, is it? I just posted a DIRECT QUOTE UNDER HIS NAME (which on the site is linked to his blog which has his email). Here it is once again:
"I'd rather harvest Zionist trolls for organs, myself. We've already paid for the parts. An independent Jewish state is a great idea, y'all should try it sometime. See if you can actually support yourselves without the welfare you get from America (who saved your worthless asses) and Germany (who you framed and defamed for a crime they should commit right now).
I$rael can't stand on it's own feet, because the Jews as a group really have no talent for anything but plagiarism. Your century is OVER."
"FRAMED AND DEFAMED FOR A CRIME THEY SHOULD COMMIT RIGHT NOW"? Does this count as racism and a call for a genocide in YOUR book, nony dearest? It does in that of any reasonably sentinent individual. I'm sure you would agree were it directed against any other minority group. Why is that you hard-left Counterpunch types (and I don't mean genuinely democratic socialists) are so bleeding oblivious to the continued existence of anti-semitism -or more accurately, Jew-hatred - especially when it occurs "on the left"? How much more blatant would it need to be? Is anything short of physical proof of a man personally tossing Jews into a gas chamber (which again, Cabal, like his hero Zundel denies ever occured) not evidence of anti-semitism or nazi apologias in your view? Are you ever willing to admit that I just might know what I'm talking about?????????????????????
I DESPISE RACIST NAZI VERMIN such as Cabal and Zundel and I will not "settle down" while their agenda is (in your case, probably unintentionally) whitewashed! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.122.88.208 ( talk) 20:11, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I presented the full context of Cabal's blog comments by posting the URL of the entire exchange in which they appeared (certainly, it would have taken far too much space to have simply cut and paste it all here). There is ABSOLUTELY NO circumstance in which they would be morally acceptable or uttered by anyone other than a degenerate genocidal racist/fascist pig. The fact that you can state otherwise is indicative once again that you simply do not care about - let alone oppose - any level of racism or hatred directed against Jews. You and Counterpunch more generally would not respond in this way were any other ethnic/racial/religious minority group so targeted. Sadly, it's beginning to appear that it was my apology to you that "jumped the gun" rather than my original comments. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.127 ( talk) 19:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
When unlocked, add article to Alternative media (U.S. political left) category. -- Kitrus 06:13, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I just deleted some vandalism ... had "Stalinist racist" right on the first paragraph Pendolatrice 14:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the Wall Street Journal- Opinion Journal related comment from the criticism section. It wasnt a criticism it was just name calling and completely irrevelent. and give citations for the holocaust denier piece or else delete it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.82.214.200 ( talk) 15:08, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I've removed a sentence about alleged "holocaust deniers" which is potentially libelous and isn't supported by any reliable sources. Please don't re-add it without providing a source. Spacevalid 18:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, Bob, for pulling up those references. As we see, once again, "anonynmous", a steadfast apologist for anti-Jewish racism on "the left" -(see the earlier parts of this discussion page where he refused to acknowledge, let alone condemn, Alan Cabal's documented calls for genocide against Jews) is once again attempting to vandalize this article. He has in the past even attempted to contact Cockburn, St. Clair and Cabal directly and get them to write the article themselves - that apparently is his idea of scholarly objectivity. Obviously, he worships Counterpunch and that is his right, but he does not have the right to seek to censor well-documented evidence that portrays his idols in a less than fully favorable light, when that evidence is as clear and irrefutable as it is. Of course, that is the way that Leninist-Stalinist regimes in power have always operated, seeking to silence -when they are not simply killing - their opposition. Anonymous needs to be reminded that Wikipedia is not Pravda, Gramma etc. where only officialy sanctioned views get printed. It is obvious - yet again!- that anonynmous refuses to participate in good faith and clear that he deserves another suspension (perhaps a permanent one) of his editing priviledges. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Antifascist ( talk • contribs) 00:05, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Re: McGown and Cabal: as annoynmous DOES know, Alan Cabal has EMPHATICALLY expressed his agreement with Zundel's views on the Nazi holocaust - the evidence for this was presented earlier on this very discussion page. While in the 2004 Counterpunch print article, Cabal may have appeared to have merely endorsed Zundel's right to free speech (something I agree with by the way), in the years since then he has made clear his agreement with the holocaust denial perspective, and even openly called for genocide of Jews (again the evidence is above on this page). Furthermore, although not as vitriolic in his criticisms, McGowan is also on record -and he in no way denies this! - as doubting that 6 million Jews were killed. See this quite recent article here: http://rense.com/general75/viv.htm -as you can see this article was enthusiastically linked to on the website of the Institute for Historical Review, the world's leading pro-Nazi holocaust denial organzation: http://www.ihr.org/rounduparchive/0703.shtml, as well as by the loathsome Nazi-style racist Israel Shamir ( an open ally of the National Alliance, British National Party and similar fascist groups) to his yahoo group : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shamireaders/message/917 which can be linked to from the official Israel Shamir website: http://www.israelshamir.net/. As you will see, Shamir favorably contrasts McGowan's approach to that of the Palestinian Azmi Bishara who as a genuine anti-racist does not doubt that 6 million Jews among many millions of others were specifically targeted by the Nazis and perished in the war.
Of course, it is true that neither Cabal nor McGowan's most loathsome pieces were published by Counterpunch (even Annon admits that Shamir is anti-Jewish)but it is interesting that they are considered acceptable contributors on related subjects and themes. Would a diehard white supremacist (which in fact, many of McGowan's closest fans such as "Curt Maynard/Chris Womack" of PC Apostate truly are) be published in Counterpunch if they wrote on the supposed evils of Affirmative Action even if they -this time- avoided the use of racial slurs? It is this widely perceived "softness on anti-semitism" (or more precisely, on anti-JUDAISM) that has alarmed some critics of Counterpunch and that makes it a relevant theme for this article. As I have demonstrated, I have plenty of documented sources and evidence at my command, and the only reason I can see for anyone to challenge them is because of a fairly obvious pro-Counterpunch bias and unwillingness to see it portrayed in a less than euphorically positive light. It is also clear that merely describing Zundel as an "extremist" is insufficient is making the point. He is a utterly GENOCIDAL racist, author of the Hitler we loved and why, and ally of white supremaicst groups, even if it is true that he is entitled to free speech on the Nazi holocaust, provided that he does not put his views into ACTION! (antifascist).
Oh, and by the way, Anonymous was the first to introduce libels and slurs by labeling me - on the basis of absolutely NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER - a 'zionist hoodlum" which he did both on this page and in the editing summaries. I suggest that HE be banned from editing till that loathsome libel is withdrawn. Clearly, he regards all serious opponents of anti-Jewish racism (as well as racism of all types) as ipso facto "zionists', which in fact reveals something quite ugly about his own racial/ethic/religious attitudes. There are plenty of ANTI-Zionists who feel the way that I do about Cabal, Shamir, Atzmon and McGowan, the Jews against Zionism foremost among them. (antifascist). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Antifascist ( talk • contribs) 20:54-21:04, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, there's just no pleasing some people, it seems! I offered a quite genuine heartfelt apology and anonynmous continues to hold a grudge, misstate events and make additional excuses for holocaust deniers. McGowan's article is BY DEFINITION a piece of holocuast denial, which is hardly surprising given the views of his close friends and organizational associates Paul Eisen and Israel Shamir. And no, there are NO "legitimate questions that can be asked" unless one is like Zundel and McGowan a pro-Hitler racist who seeks to minimize Nazi atrocities. Blackwell was forced to remove some of her materials on McGowan because that great believer in free speech threatened to sue her for libel (and as we all know, British libel laws are far more punitive than those of the U.S). In any event, McGowan's efforts are far from limited to criticizing Elie Wiesel, as you put it. And, finally, you did not initially call me a mere "zionist" but a "zionist hoodlum" which is a far more pejorative term than "lacky". I will cease responding to you if you stop reverting the article as it now stands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Antifascist ( talk • contribs) 16:14, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
annonynmous has once again rejected the olive brach I offered by reverting the edits re: cabal, mcgowan and zundel - in fact, McGowan wasn't even specifically mentioned in the edit that he vandalized but he continues to whitewash the viewpoint of this loathsome racist nonetheless. McGowan -and Cabal's - views go well beyond Norman Finkelstein's and Noam Chomsky's as I and others have documented time and time again. They do not merely defend Zundel's "freedom of Speech". They specifically legitimize his VIEWS. It is certainly appropriate to use terms like "anti-Jewish" in an encyclopedia when they are warranted, just as it would be to label George Wallace and Lester Maddox as "anti-black" or more generally as "racists". i Will not immediately revert his vandalism, but will give others a chance to edit this appropriately. As it stands now, however, this is a completely inaccurate representation of the "criticisms" that have been made. (antifascist). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Antifascist ( talk • contribs) 02:13, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
"Ernst believes that Jewish groups have wanted him jailed for promoting views that the Jewish-Zionist lobby considers harmful to its interests.Ernst Zuendel is neither a monster nor a heretic. He is a man with strong convictions and the courage to express them. He views himself not as a Holocaust "denier," but rather as a Holocaust revisionist....Those who would incarcerate revisionists like Ernst Zuendel and hold them, without bail, for years on end to drain them of their resources and to silence them as "Prisoners of Zion" could well be labeled as "justice deniers.""
Clearly, no actual evidence would ever really convince annoynmous of the reality of McGowan's and Cabal's vehemently anti-Jewish and pro-Nazi views, as that evidence is irrefutable and has already been presented many times. That is why annon says "it can't be a comment page on some (in fact,not so obscure) blog" because he KNOWS that Cabal DID in fact express those views on such a blog, has never denied them, and is regarded by virtually everyone sane as an anti-Jewish holocaust denying racist. But annon will not yield one inch -come what may - in his quest to have the article appear exactly the way he would write it, i.e. one that reflects his own ideological fantasies, rather than well-documented EVIDENCE. Hence his incessent vandalism and reverts. I think Wiki editors should be contacted re: his POV editing violations (outside observer). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.68.164.223 ( talk) 17:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I do not think the article should say that Cabal or McGowan are anti-Jewish racists. But I think they do more than defend Zundel's freedom of speech. This is precisely why they are promoted by neo-nazi sites, and they have never (to my knowledge) published anything disassociating themselves from the neo-nazi sites which publish them. First, Cabal. Look at what they have written. According to the Wyman Inst:
in the February 1-15 , 2004 edition of the political newsletter CounterPunch... Cabal described Zundel as “the most widely recognized figure in the growing number of historians, both amateur and academic, questioning the veracity of orthodox accounts of the events which took place in the Nazi concentration camps during World War II ... The ‘Holocaust Industry’, as Norman Finkelstein dubbed it, behaves in every way like a fanatical cult. The persecution of Ernst Zundel has been and continues to be both relentless and utterly ruthless.” Cabal characterized the deportation proceedings against Zundel as “an affront to justice and public decency that goes far beyond anything that Mr. Zundel has to say.” [16] (Same text according to Zundelsite [17])
Cabal also says "The man [Zundel] may hold provocative views, but he is a committed pacifist. He is guilty only of expressing an unpopular viewpoint." (zundelsite ibid) SO, Cabal says Zundel is guilty only of being unpopular. I personally do not support the prosecution of Holocaust deniers, but to reduce their views simply to "provocative" and "unpopular" views is to legitimise them.
Further, Cabal's description of "Ernst" (as he always calls him) as this cuddly old pacifist painter is to defend him, the man, not just his free speech.
Second, McGowan. His association with Shamir is clear: Shamir calls him "our friend". [18] McGowan also does more than defend the free speech of Zundel. The facts about the Holocaust that Zundel denies, he calls "facts" (in scare quotes - an act of denial). His interview provides Zundel with a voice to express his views.
McGowan also defends Zundel the man, not just his freedom of speech. He writes:
An admirer once described Ernst Zuendel as "an outgoing, good-humored man who is blessed with a rare combination of unflagging optimism and practical ability. He maintains this infectious spirit even under very trying conditions. He is an unusually alert and sensitive individual with a keen understanding of human nature. He inspires confidence, loyalty and affection." On December 7, 2006 I witnessed his trial in Mannheim and found this description to be uncannily accurate.
This "admirer", as far as I can tell, is the neo-nazi Revisionists.com website. [19] Like Cabal, McGowan portrays Zundel as a sweet, pacifist painter. The final para of McG's article is most distasteful:
He is a man with strong convictions and the courage to express them. He views himself not as a Holocaust "denier," but rather as a Holocaust revisionist... Those who would incarcerate revisionists like Ernst Zuendel and hold them, without bail, for years on end to drain them of their resources and to silence them as "Prisoners of Zion" could well be labeled as "justice deniers."
This phrase "deniers of justice" is horrific moral equivalence: Zundel's life is made equivelant to those of the millions of Nazi victims. The phrase "Prisoners of Zion" is rather dodgy, to say the least. BobFromBrockley 12:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
My personal preference is neither "defending the free speech" (far too week - would not cause much controversy) nor "sought to legitimize" (I believe this is true - but is perhaps too strong) but rather the more neutral and simple "defended". Also, what happened to the footnote on McGowan? BobFromBrockley 17:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Anon continues his willful ignorance in the service of whitewashing "leftist" holocaust deniers; McGowan certainly DOES consider Israel Shamir a close friend - indeed, it was insistence on putting him on the board of directors of McGowan's organization Deir Yassin Remembered that led many other anti-zionists, -both Jewish and Palestinian - to resign from the organization. One prominent example is Jeff Halper. This has all been well-covered in the anti-zionist blogosphere, particularly in the U.K on such sites as Sue Blackwell's, Jews San Frontieres and others. McGowan and his co-director Paul Eisen enthusiastically endorse both Zundel and Shamir's vile racist writings about Judaism and Jews and are close political allies of them. Roland Rance can certainly confirm all of this, as can anyone else who has actually followed these controversies up close. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.199.143 ( talk) 02:27, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I have simply added one word to this compromise as a point of clarification. Althogh far from perfect, I am now prepared to accept this existing version and hope that we can all go forward without any new reverts. (antifascist). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Antifascist ( talk • contribs) 20:41, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
This citation appears to be purely a self-written ad on the website which is used to provide reference. A more appropriate citation is needed, I will leave the current cite for now, but will also add a cite needed tag. Tiggerjay 03:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
The link connected to Ron Jacobs in this article is incorrect. The Ron Jacobs referred to here is an activist and the author of The Way the Wind Blew:A History of the Weather Underground (Verso, 1997) and Short Order Frame Up (Mainstay 2007). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.115.194.132 ( talk) 19:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Have restored criticism wording to previous state, as this was consensus reached after long discussion here, involving number of editors - see above. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 17:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC)